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	Comments on: The Left and the EU: Why cling to this reactionary institution?	</title>
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	<link>https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/</link>
	<description>because facts really should be sacred</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:57:35 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: James Carless		</title>
		<link>https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45861</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Carless]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://off-guardian.org/?p=24053#comment-45861</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[When ever a true socialist has any doubt on an issue all they need do is look up what Blair&#039;s position is........then be assured the opposite is the best stance.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When ever a true socialist has any doubt on an issue all they need do is look up what Blair&#8217;s position is&#8230;&#8230;..then be assured the opposite is the best stance.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jen		</title>
		<link>https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45860</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://off-guardian.org/?p=24053#comment-45860</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45859&quot;&gt;shatnersrug&lt;/a&gt;.

Unfortunately Craig Murray&#039;s arguments are of the self-interested kind and the points he makes and the reasoning behind them represent a simplistic view of much more complex issues.
Are the EU&#039;s supra-national institutions really politically neutral? Why is it that so many corporations and many politicians on the &quot;right&quot; are equally enthusiastic about immigration as Craig is, and want more of it?
Assange and Werner&#039;s arguments still stand: to say they are talking out of their arses is not a good position to take.
Norway, Switzerland and even Iceland for all its past problems after the GFC in 2008 have managed to thrive without being members of the EU. Surely their example is a challenge to all the advocates for the Remain campaign: if they can succeed, how can the Remain campaign justify staying in the EU?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45859">shatnersrug</a>.</p>
<p>Unfortunately Craig Murray&#8217;s arguments are of the self-interested kind and the points he makes and the reasoning behind them represent a simplistic view of much more complex issues.<br />
Are the EU&#8217;s supra-national institutions really politically neutral? Why is it that so many corporations and many politicians on the &#8220;right&#8221; are equally enthusiastic about immigration as Craig is, and want more of it?<br />
Assange and Werner&#8217;s arguments still stand: to say they are talking out of their arses is not a good position to take.<br />
Norway, Switzerland and even Iceland for all its past problems after the GFC in 2008 have managed to thrive without being members of the EU. Surely their example is a challenge to all the advocates for the Remain campaign: if they can succeed, how can the Remain campaign justify staying in the EU?</p>
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		<title>
		By: shatnersrug		</title>
		<link>https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45859</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[shatnersrug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2016 03:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://off-guardian.org/?p=24053#comment-45859</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45857&quot;&gt;Jen&lt;/a&gt;.

Here, read what Craig has to say about it. This f**king campaign has awoken an evil in the people here that I have never in my life seen here before it&#039;s ugly and a brexit vote will embolden it. I am utterly shocked by the spoilt naive talk coming from supposedly left wing voices.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/will-vote-remain-love-mum/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45857">Jen</a>.</p>
<p>Here, read what Craig has to say about it. This f**king campaign has awoken an evil in the people here that I have never in my life seen here before it&#8217;s ugly and a brexit vote will embolden it. I am utterly shocked by the spoilt naive talk coming from supposedly left wing voices.<br />
<a href="https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/will-vote-remain-love-mum/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/will-vote-remain-love-mum/</a></p>
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		By: shatnersrug		</title>
		<link>https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45858</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[shatnersrug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2016 03:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://off-guardian.org/?p=24053#comment-45858</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45857&quot;&gt;Jen&lt;/a&gt;.

Forgive me Jen, but you don&#039;t live here and you don&#039;t know what is at steak.
Professor Werner is talking out of his arse.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45857">Jen</a>.</p>
<p>Forgive me Jen, but you don&#8217;t live here and you don&#8217;t know what is at steak.<br />
Professor Werner is talking out of his arse.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jen		</title>
		<link>https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45857</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2016 00:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://off-guardian.org/?p=24053#comment-45857</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45856&quot;&gt;shatnersrug&lt;/a&gt;.

Shatnersrug, X,
If I were British, I&#039;d be voting to leave but not for the reasons that many British people like George Galloway and Nigel Farage might vote to leave.
I go along with Julian Assange&#039;s reasoning when he says that belonging to the EU allows the British government to do things it wants to do (or which its puppet masters in Washington want it to do) and not to do things the British public want to see done.
In other words the very institution of the EU and all its agencies permits Britain and other member EU countries as well not to be accountable and transparent in their operations to their respective publics.
I&#039;ll let Assange himself explain why:
&quot;[David Cameron&#039;s government] launders things to the EU and then claims that it can&#039;t do anything about it ...&quot;
“The UK is bad for the EU, but also the EU is bad for the UK because it permits a lack of democratic accountability in this country by permitting successive governments in this country to simply say ‘oh, we are forced into doing things because of EU legislation’ when it is precisely these governments that have been behind the EU legislation in the first place.”
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160620/1041600769/Assange-Backs-Brexit-Cameron.html
And in case my fellow Australian citizen&#039;s argument doesn&#039;t convince you, Off-Guardian.org has kindly posted another argument by Professor Richard Werner against Britain remaining in the EU.
https://professorwerner.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/eu-basics-your-guide-to-the-uk-referendum-on-eu-membership/
One certainly has to wonder why the US is so determined for Britain to remain in the EU when one would think the so-called Special Relationship that exists between the two nations would logically suggest that Washington would favour British departure. I would add to Werner&#039;s argument that the US sees the EU as a useful idiot tool to throw into its re-enactment of World War II but with a changed ending that benefits the US and its goal of claiming gas and oil resources that rightfully belong to the Russian people.
And one more thing ... Norway, Iceland and Switzerland aren&#039;t EU members (Iceland withdrew its application to join the EU in 2015 and the Swiss did likewise just recently) and they haven&#039;t done too badly for themselves even though they&#039;re small nations with limited global influence.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45856">shatnersrug</a>.</p>
<p>Shatnersrug, X,<br />
If I were British, I&#8217;d be voting to leave but not for the reasons that many British people like George Galloway and Nigel Farage might vote to leave.<br />
I go along with Julian Assange&#8217;s reasoning when he says that belonging to the EU allows the British government to do things it wants to do (or which its puppet masters in Washington want it to do) and not to do things the British public want to see done.<br />
In other words the very institution of the EU and all its agencies permits Britain and other member EU countries as well not to be accountable and transparent in their operations to their respective publics.<br />
I&#8217;ll let Assange himself explain why:<br />
&#8220;[David Cameron&#8217;s government] launders things to the EU and then claims that it can&#8217;t do anything about it &#8230;&#8221;<br />
“The UK is bad for the EU, but also the EU is bad for the UK because it permits a lack of democratic accountability in this country by permitting successive governments in this country to simply say ‘oh, we are forced into doing things because of EU legislation’ when it is precisely these governments that have been behind the EU legislation in the first place.”<br />
<a href="http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160620/1041600769/Assange-Backs-Brexit-Cameron.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160620/1041600769/Assange-Backs-Brexit-Cameron.html</a><br />
And in case my fellow Australian citizen&#8217;s argument doesn&#8217;t convince you, Off-Guardian.org has kindly posted another argument by Professor Richard Werner against Britain remaining in the EU.<br />
<a href="https://professorwerner.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/eu-basics-your-guide-to-the-uk-referendum-on-eu-membership/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://professorwerner.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/eu-basics-your-guide-to-the-uk-referendum-on-eu-membership/</a><br />
One certainly has to wonder why the US is so determined for Britain to remain in the EU when one would think the so-called Special Relationship that exists between the two nations would logically suggest that Washington would favour British departure. I would add to Werner&#8217;s argument that the US sees the EU as a useful idiot tool to throw into its re-enactment of World War II but with a changed ending that benefits the US and its goal of claiming gas and oil resources that rightfully belong to the Russian people.<br />
And one more thing &#8230; Norway, Iceland and Switzerland aren&#8217;t EU members (Iceland withdrew its application to join the EU in 2015 and the Swiss did likewise just recently) and they haven&#8217;t done too badly for themselves even though they&#8217;re small nations with limited global influence.</p>
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		By: shatnersrug		</title>
		<link>https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45856</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[shatnersrug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://off-guardian.org/?p=24053#comment-45856</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45855&quot;&gt;Catte&lt;/a&gt;.

Of course there is but they can be beaten, Europeans are far more left wing and far less tolerant of that horseshit.
Remember Rupert Murdoch, he said &quot;why don&#039;t I like the EU? Because when I go to see them they ignore me, but when I go to Downing Street they listen to me&quot;
Catte, I&#039;ve lived in this country all my life I&#039;ve been a Labour Party member since I was 13, I marched again Iraq in 2003. My credentials are good! And if I thought there was a chance of a fairer country from voting out I would in a minute - but I know the establishment - I know what&#039;s coming - things these people have dreamed about doing to us for the past 50 years.
If anyone cold prove to me that the left in this country were strong enough and had enough support to take control and lead us to a social conscience I&#039;d be there but, seriously, it&#039;s pie in the sky horseshit, the left needs to be rebuilt and we&#039;ve only just started its going to take literally years. But I would expect us dead within a year of unfettered Tory rule.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45855">Catte</a>.</p>
<p>Of course there is but they can be beaten, Europeans are far more left wing and far less tolerant of that horseshit.<br />
Remember Rupert Murdoch, he said &#8220;why don&#8217;t I like the EU? Because when I go to see them they ignore me, but when I go to Downing Street they listen to me&#8221;<br />
Catte, I&#8217;ve lived in this country all my life I&#8217;ve been a Labour Party member since I was 13, I marched again Iraq in 2003. My credentials are good! And if I thought there was a chance of a fairer country from voting out I would in a minute &#8211; but I know the establishment &#8211; I know what&#8217;s coming &#8211; things these people have dreamed about doing to us for the past 50 years.<br />
If anyone cold prove to me that the left in this country were strong enough and had enough support to take control and lead us to a social conscience I&#8217;d be there but, seriously, it&#8217;s pie in the sky horseshit, the left needs to be rebuilt and we&#8217;ve only just started its going to take literally years. But I would expect us dead within a year of unfettered Tory rule.</p>
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		By: Catte		</title>
		<link>https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45855</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Catte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://off-guardian.org/?p=24053#comment-45855</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45853&quot;&gt;shatnersrug&lt;/a&gt;.

I agree with you that fascism is the danger. But not in quite the way you mean. I think the biggest danger we all face now isn&#039;t the neo-nazis or any other lunatic fringe group. It&#039;s the fast-developing menace of huge super-statism as promoted by the 0.1% through their media and bought spokespersons. The white supremacists and all the other crazies, vile as they are,are no more than pawns or incidentals in that creeping agenda. Sometimes they are used as willing actors - as in Ukraine -  sometimes as demons to scare us and distract us, as now in the UK. The powers at work here don&#039;t care who they ally with, use or abuse. They are not interested in issues of race, colour, creed or sexuality. These things are just useful little distractions to keep us all divided and hostile while they push through with their mad plans.
Personally I am not sure about the EU. But I do know that when the IMF, Soros, the POTUS and Angela Merkel (to say nothing of JK Rowling and David Beckham) are all telling us to stay in, there&#039;s an agenda here we need to worry about :-)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45853">shatnersrug</a>.</p>
<p>I agree with you that fascism is the danger. But not in quite the way you mean. I think the biggest danger we all face now isn&#8217;t the neo-nazis or any other lunatic fringe group. It&#8217;s the fast-developing menace of huge super-statism as promoted by the 0.1% through their media and bought spokespersons. The white supremacists and all the other crazies, vile as they are,are no more than pawns or incidentals in that creeping agenda. Sometimes they are used as willing actors &#8211; as in Ukraine &#8211;  sometimes as demons to scare us and distract us, as now in the UK. The powers at work here don&#8217;t care who they ally with, use or abuse. They are not interested in issues of race, colour, creed or sexuality. These things are just useful little distractions to keep us all divided and hostile while they push through with their mad plans.<br />
Personally I am not sure about the EU. But I do know that when the IMF, Soros, the POTUS and Angela Merkel (to say nothing of JK Rowling and David Beckham) are all telling us to stay in, there&#8217;s an agenda here we need to worry about 🙂</p>
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		By: shatnersrug		</title>
		<link>https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45854</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[shatnersrug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://off-guardian.org/?p=24053#comment-45854</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45851&quot;&gt;Kathleen Lowrey&lt;/a&gt;.

Whereas if we vote out we get all that on our own-great. No thanks. This guy&#039;s arguments are pie in the sky horseshit. I&#039;m more left than he is and I can tell you now without the EU this country will be at the mercy of an extreme right wing and our powerful secret police - it will descend into fascism before you can say Forever Tory.
I despair at how naive progressives in this country are.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45851">Kathleen Lowrey</a>.</p>
<p>Whereas if we vote out we get all that on our own-great. No thanks. This guy&#8217;s arguments are pie in the sky horseshit. I&#8217;m more left than he is and I can tell you now without the EU this country will be at the mercy of an extreme right wing and our powerful secret police &#8211; it will descend into fascism before you can say Forever Tory.<br />
I despair at how naive progressives in this country are.</p>
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		By: shatnersrug		</title>
		<link>https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45853</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[shatnersrug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://off-guardian.org/?p=24053#comment-45853</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45852&quot;&gt;X&lt;/a&gt;.

This country has been dancing around the corners of fascism for the last 20 years. If we exit expect full on fascism - as for the EU it&#039;s more resistant to American power than Britain is - without it we&#039;re fucked anyone on the left that thinks that an exit now straight into the hands of Murdoch on Johnson will end in anyway other than fascism hasn&#039;t followed history and is living with their head up their arse.
This article is fanciful horseshit and it&#039;s dangerous horseshit - expect Corbyn and McDonnell and anyone else threatening the establishment dead in their beds within a year.
This is our moment people - this is where &quot;it could happen here&quot; becomes shit, it is happening here&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/22/the-left-and-the-eu-why-cling-to-this-reactionary-institution/#comment-45852">X</a>.</p>
<p>This country has been dancing around the corners of fascism for the last 20 years. If we exit expect full on fascism &#8211; as for the EU it&#8217;s more resistant to American power than Britain is &#8211; without it we&#8217;re fucked anyone on the left that thinks that an exit now straight into the hands of Murdoch on Johnson will end in anyway other than fascism hasn&#8217;t followed history and is living with their head up their arse.<br />
This article is fanciful horseshit and it&#8217;s dangerous horseshit &#8211; expect Corbyn and McDonnell and anyone else threatening the establishment dead in their beds within a year.<br />
This is our moment people &#8211; this is where &#8220;it could happen here&#8221; becomes shit, it is happening here&#8221;</p>
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