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OffGuardian’s 9/11 Articles: A Reader’s Point of View


by Mog

c
I started reading OffGuardian shortly after it set up, following a link from the Medialens forum discussion board. As someone who has both sought out non-mainstream sources of news, and followed the 911 debate closely for about ten years, I was both surprised and fascinated that the OffG editors decided to mark the 15 year anniversary by taking on this controversy. I think it is indisputable that there is a definitely identifiable taboo that surrounds any critical approach to examining the events of 911, and in light of the general silence amongst most alt media commentators, my first thoughts were that OffG have been admirably brave to break that ‘spiral of silence’.
It is interesting to read how this recent anniversary has been marked. The mass media has been relatively quiet about it, and so have many dissenting voices online. It is as if the elephant in the room has reproduced into a small herd over the past decade and a half.
The position that is defined by unreserved acceptance of the official version of 911- that laid out in the 911 Commission Report, the NIST reports and the FBI Amerithrax report, is rigid and brittle. We know that the Commission Report was compromised to the point of making it a glaring cover up, we know that it was essentially a creation of a fanatical Neoconservative, and we know that Neocons ‘have form’ i.e. that they lied us into terrible wars. We know that the Amerithrax case is shattered, that its fundamental premise is disputed by the highest scientific authority in the US, and we know that the FBI is rivened with disputes about the case against Ivins. We now know that the NIST reports omitted vital details, and classified others, and were closed to any meaningful review process, thus rendering them outside the category of ‘scientific’.
So the only legitimate position is to at least accept that the truth about 911 has not come out; to acknowledge that the usual adversarial processes and institutions that vet what we call ‘true’, have completely broken down in the case of 911. There has undeniably been a cover up – for whatever reason that may be, so the moral obligation must be to demand a reversal in that cover up. The comments read here this past week, that, point blank, refuse to see ‘911 Truth’ as a call for truth, but insist instead that it is a claim on ‘truth’, (i.e. a predetermined conclusion -the essence of which these pseudosceptics dispute) hold a very fragile opinion, one that crumbles to nothing at the first touch of genuine critical thought. If those who have been engaged or supportive of 911 research are ‘Truthers’ then their opponents are surely ‘Bunkers’- steadfast in their almost religious insistence on the veracity of official statements made by known liars.
The fact that the vast majority of dissenting writers in the West are unable to make statements that go at least as far as pointing out the failure of the official accounts is troubling. The most interesting discussion for me in OffG was that about Chomsky’s pronouncements that are emblematic of this inability to merely point out that (in line with standard form) the government lied about 911. In this, again, OffGuardian must be congratulated for not shying away from controversy.
It is as if the pricking of that bubble, the touching of a façade, would open a discussion that would, in its conclusion, bring the whole fictive locomotive to a screaming halt. Chomsky, Cockburn, Monbiot are ‘gatekeepers’. Whether we understand that term functionally in the sense that they are unwittingly blinded by their unconscious preconceptions about deep events, or whether we think that there is some more Machiavellian interference in their strange break from reasoned arguments, the effect is ultimately the same: many critical thinkers have been put off looking into 911 by the a priori position of high profile public intellectuals. This position says that 911 research is all distracting nonsense, period. Personally it took me a very long time to close the rift that was opened up when I started to question ‘the rational boundaries’ of questioning itself – as policed by public thinkers whom I had long admired and trusted.
If we do start to question the 911 story in earnest, we end up with a small encyclopaedia of facts that should be of interest to any who might have the power to investigate further; the articles that have appeared in OffGuardian have barely scratched the surface. For the obvious reason that most of the fatalities occurred due to the WTC building collapses/ demolitions, there has been an understandable focus on this element. However, just about every single aspect of the crime is, on closer inspection, problematic. If we question:

  • The origins of the organisation alleged to be responsible, Al Qaeda, and its subsequent history since the events of 911,
  • The source of the expertise in training AQ operatives,
  • The accounts of how the alleged terrorists got access to USA,
  • The tracking and surveillance by intelligence agencies,
  • Where and with whom these alleged terrorists lived,
  • Who funded their stay, their travel, their training,
  • Who ran the flight schools where they were supposedly trained,
  • How equipped they were to carry out what was attributed to them,
  • What were their real motivations,
  • The evidence that they actually boarded and hijacked those planes,
  • The companies and individuals who were responsible for stopping terrorists getting on those planes at those airports,
  • The responses of the US command structure in face of the attacks,
  • The details of the flight paths, altitudes and speeds of those planes,
  • The phonecalls that allegedly originated from those planes,
  • The details of the crashes themselves and the procedures for evaluating them afterwards,
  • The occupants in the buildings, the crash zones of the buildings, the owners of the buildings…the fate of the buildings,
  • The people who destroyed evidence and thereby covered up the crime of 911,
  • The money trails

…and on, we find many threads leading back to state intelligence actors and agencies (US, Saudi, Israeli, Pakistani). Pseudosceptics allege here a ‘cherry picking of evidence’ in the support of an absurd hypothesis. I think it is more like pointing out an orchard of cherry trees along with the US Government sign that boldly reads, ‘This Is A Hill Of Beans’. The sheer weight of evidence cannot reasonably be written off as co-incidences and cock-ups, and I would assert that only a tiny minority of those who thoroughly wade into the deep waters of 911 research emerge the other side not at least suspecting US insider involvement.
What have we learned from any of this? What use is it? If not mere distraction, then what? For me it points to a fundamental shortcoming in most that I read in politically dissenting journalism. In light of the deep political analysis of such things as 911, we can conclude that the greatest problem with our society is uncontained, unaccountable, secretive power; power that acts to promote agendas that serve elite interests at the expense of humanity at large.
This needs to be repeatedly acknowledged front and centre of any critical writing on politics, economics and geopolitical conflicts . If one accepts that the US Gov/ Neocon version of 911 is not complete, or if one goes so far as to accept the prima facie case against US insiders, then it must, obviously, colour all analysis that follows. This by and large has not happened, and so we have tens of thousands of articles critical of the way the world situation has developed in the aftermath of 911, that almost all unquestioningly accept the official story as true and complete. If we hold any hope or desire for a more peaceful and just planet then the essentially criminal aspects of the ‘overworld’ of state and private intelligence needs to be brought under public control.
The extent of their lies must at least be acknowledged. I am heartened to read that reputable online media like OffGuardian are trying to open this debate in parts of the internet that have for too long disregarded it out of hand.


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Wallace Bernd
Wallace Bernd
Sep 29, 2016 10:28 PM
kimcarsons
kimcarsons
Sep 28, 2016 1:34 PM

Networks of promotion/control slide imperceptibly into networks of
surveillance/disinformation. Formerly one only conspired against an
established order. Today, conspiring in its favor is a new and flourishing
profession. Under spectacular domination, people conspire to maintain it,
and to guarantee what it alone would call its well-being. This conspiracy is a
part of its very functioning. Provisions for a kind of preventive civil war are
already being made, adapted to variously calculated future projections’
Guy Debord – comments on the society of the Spectacle

rtj1211
rtj1211
Sep 27, 2016 7:20 PM

THere is an implicit assumption in this article that ‘high profile’ ‘public intellectuals’ are capable of being gatekeepers on an event as complex to carry out forensic analysis on 911 is extremely naive. None of these people have the scientific or engineering firepower to remotely interrogate technical analysis. They are professional writers/philosophers, not scientists. There are, after all, various experiences you have to go through to be capable and confident in challenging the most powerful people on earth: 1): You have to have experienced betrayal by those you had a right to trust. THat makes you question everything. 2): You have to have pursued something to a world-leading level, whatever that is. You see the world holistically if you reach that level… 3): You must put truth before narrow ambition, since you will be blacklisted by those your investigations threaten. That implies you must be financially secure or backed by… Read more »

Arrby
Arrby
Sep 22, 2016 10:54 PM

I don’t think that anyone would argue with Mog that suspecting the US gov of knowing more about 9/11 than it’s letting on is reasonable. I think Mog makes many good points. And I am no more against continuing to look into it than I am against continuing to look into the death of JFK, another big society-shaking event. But we can disappear into these black holes. I’m not saying we are, but… It’s a little like knowing whether George W is a Freemason or Skull & Bones (I forget which it is, but many of the presidents were Freemasons). Do we need to know, specifically, that GW is a Freemason to know what to make of him? Do we need to know specifically whether GW is a Freemason in order to draw a conclusion about whether he represents something that we can get behind? Can we indict him if… Read more »

Arrby
Arrby
Sep 23, 2016 1:15 PM
Reply to  Arrby

Why the down vote?

Loop Garou
Loop Garou
Sep 23, 2016 2:26 PM
Reply to  Arrby

No idea why you received a down vote. I think you make an excellent and nuanced point.

Arrby
Arrby
Sep 23, 2016 7:50 PM
Reply to  Loop Garou

Thanks Loop. This is why I would never use a ‘like’ feature were I to host a discussion forum. I use them as a participant because, at the same time, they are there and you want to support what you want to support, sometimes urgently. But I do think that they are open to abuse. Someone disagreeing or agreeing with you can say why, in my opinion. Or at least, in ‘person’ say that he (or…) agrees or disagrees. Just goes to show, Imperfect humans can’t create perfect systems.

BigB
BigB
Sep 20, 2016 1:26 PM

Hey Norman, I’m with you! So what is this bona fide case/ official narrative that the debunkers are defending? Based on a violated crime scene – disappeared primary evidence; an underfunded (and unwanted) cOmmission (‘set up to fail’); ignoring testimony of first responders (who reported explosions, molten steel etc); based on third party accounts of ‘evidence’ acquired by torture; ‘translated’ (in part) by a translator that spoke Turkish – but not English (see Sibel Edmonds); written into an outline provided by a regime insider whose role is Public Myth Making; which proceeded from its foregone conclusion (al Quaeda did it); didn’t look into conspiracy; did’nt follow the money; limited metalurgic analysis performed by Fema that found a beam that had previously had been molten but was not followed up by NIST; NIST? toilet paper; show trial 1 (Moussaoui – not a nice man – deserves life in prison – but… Read more »

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 20, 2016 4:26 AM

There is an answer from one of the members of the ISL forums here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11497701#post11497701
“Mog” seems to be setting up a Gish Gallop, here. None of his points bear fruit in terms of discrediting or even challenging the consensus understanding of events.
It is weird how ‘truthers’ and other cranks are happy to believe that a government can create a massive conspiracy theory involving a lot of completely unecessary complications, when they can’t even manage to — for example — create some fake evidence for WMDs in Iraq.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2016 5:26 AM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Everyone, do take cover! Here comes Jerome, again, intrepidly piloting his B-17 Flying Fortress, busy as can be in the midst of all its antiquated controls, with another load of rebuking well researched responses with which to carpet bomb the comments of anyone doubting that some among 19 Arabs from the Middle East, after easily defeating NORAD while flying multi-ton airliners for the first time in their lives with passports safely tucked into their back pockets, took down the Twin Towers and WTC7 with only two planes, office fires and nothing but gravity, thereby proving the impossible but truly miraculous, that asymmetric chaotic damage to steel framed buildings can indeed cause them to collapse in perfect symmetry, all the while pulverizing concrete well in excess of the available gravitational potential energy of the first two buildings to collapse and managing, yet, to heave enough debris across impossible distances at a… Read more »

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 20, 2016 7:09 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Yes, because tons of magic explosives (1), having been carefully installed into three of the WTC buildings (but only three, for an unexplained reason — ran out of money to buy more explosives?) by a team of ninjas (2) over the course of weeks to months, using a detonation method that left no trace (let alone the explosives themselves) — and all to ensure… Well, what is the reasoning? Unless the towers were completely collapsed, the conspirators would be unable to convince the public to start a ‘War on Terror”? No support to attack a country not at all connected with the attacks? Why was the “WMD” fantasy required, then? On the one hand: governmental incompetence and an unprecedented event (one that building designers hadn’t really considered). On the other hand: a mega-conspiracy with a huge number of potential points of failure and chance for exposing, using non-existent materials and… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2016 7:40 AM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

You surpass your usual level of illogic this evening, Jerome. You should take a nap and come back when you feel more alert and have another go. (If I may make a suggestion: you should exclude this particular come-back from your list of comments to include in your upcoming anthology.) Let me try to help you formulate the point that I think you are trying to make: “The sequences of events, as they actually happened, are so complex and improbable, that there is no way that the world’s most logistically and technologically advanced nation on the planet could have made them happen although, it’s true, 19 Arabs with box cutters did make them happen.” The foregoing is a “reduction” of: “. . . a mega-conspiracy with a huge number of potential points of failure and chance for exposing, using non-existent materials and technology, to ensure an outcome that would not… Read more »

windjammer
windjammer
Oct 7, 2016 8:02 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Full access to structural core columns by way of elevator shafts, combined with scheduled elevator upgrades, unusual powerdowns and removal of “bomb-sniffing” dogs prior to 9/11, suspicious entities in charge of security, and a whole host of other well-documented facts I won’t get into here, provide fertile grounds for a real investigation of real people with real names and addresses. All three towers exhibited complete loss of core column integrity , and it’s no secret that wireless near-silent thermite cutters could certainly do this damage, to facilitate the buildings falling fast into their own footprints. The many witnessed sounds of explosions going off just add to the timeline mystery. Obviously the WTC7 collapse was nearly miraculous in it’s symmetry, and was most successful at limiting damage to neighbouring buildings. It was also the first pile of crime scene to be “cleaned up” inspite of no potential survival of occupants since… Read more »

Questions
Questions
Sep 20, 2016 8:47 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

What’s incredible is after 15 years you can’t accept the basic tenants of the Truther movement have no basis in fact. Every major talking point of Trutherism was invented by someone in the alt right, then repackaged for mainstream, or at least alternative left, consumption. Thermite? Invented by Steven Jones, fraudlent archaeologist and pseudo science free energy woo-miester. Space beams and other wacked out theories? Christopher Bollyn anti semite/holocaust denier “journalist” https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2002/risking-their-freedom AE911truth? A fraud run by one guy that funds at least one 911 truther website, while said website claims to get no funding. Scholars for 9/11 Truth? Founded by patriot/antisemite loons working with other loons spreading the delusion ” elements of the U.S. government, not Osama bin Laden, masterminded the deadly attacks that killed almost 3,000 Americans.” http://www.lowellsun.com/front/ci_4173789 Its been 15 years. No one is in the streets anyone. There’s a reason why. Trutherism is a fraud and… Read more »

Admin
Admin
Sep 20, 2016 10:09 AM
Reply to  Questions

You’re rebutting the people, not the argument.

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 20, 2016 12:49 PM
Reply to  Admin

The “argument” being asserted is that the people behind the ‘truther’ movement are credible, and that there is significant support.
The numbers claimed by AE911T, even if completely accurate, are a very small fraction of those engaged in those areas of occupation. Then there is the questionable behaviour of some of the main drivers of ‘trutherism’. While charlatans could be promoting something with validity, it is less likely to be the case than if they were not so inclined.

Admin
Admin
Sep 20, 2016 2:41 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Scientific claims stand or fall on the science. They do not stand or fall on the numbers of people who agree or disagree. Nor do they stand or fall in the basis of ad hom attacks.
If you believe AE9/11Truth or any of its members or any other scientists who have produced key evidence have engaged in fraud or deception then you need to provide evidence for this.
Please provide the data if you have it, or in all conscience withdraw the claim.

binra
binra
Sep 20, 2016 6:27 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Not to mention the Gov funded ‘cyber defence’; astroturfing and disseminating of disinfo that dilutes, obfuscates diverts and divides the Enemy. All clever stuff. Discernment is essential. Discernment is the recognition of where something is coming from – not in terms of an address – but in terms of purpose. Of course if I am coming from a dis-integrity I will not ‘see’ anything but only scan for threat and for ammunition to counter it. In my being, truth is a matter of discernment – but in mind framing, truth is determined by appeals to external authority to support it – or indeed to external invalidity to undermine a rival so as to appear stronger in one’s case. But the fact is that truth is alive and beliefs are self defining identity from which we act until we change our mind. I can tune into a signal amidst noise –… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2016 9:54 PM
Reply to  binra

I’m beginning to hear you, binra. At first, your voice was a bit foreign and strange to me, but now I’m growing accustomed to your style and well, wow, man, there is indeed depth of insight to what you write. Keep it coming.

binra
binra
Sep 21, 2016 1:20 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Thanks for the ‘touch’ Norman, and for willingness to keep a part of your mind open amidst the initially strange and foreign. I feel that is a key to growing perspective – abiding through the perhaps temptations or reaction to judge against with a little willingness that finds its timing in some unexpected moment that has an entirely different quality than being coerced, tricked, persuaded or enticed or played for agreement, validation or attention. And of course our own thinking can operate like that whenever we limit identify to struggle within it’s framing rather than relax that to come back into alignment with a core honesty of being. There’s a tone or quality of presence to integrity that is within or through the form yet not defined by it – yet the form embodies it without hype or spin of personal assertions or personal neediness as a witness and perhaps… Read more »

Questions
Questions
Sep 20, 2016 3:52 PM
Reply to  Admin

Only in tinfoil cuckoo land does anyone suggest the public is obligated to engaged facts with obviously unqualified people. In the real world, first on establishes credentials and a body of work before one’s so called evidence is given a hearing. This is why the US patent office has an automatic moratorium on perpetual motion devices. Most submitters are conman, some are self deluded, but none of them get to waste anyone’s time anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion#Patents And neither should the conmen who invent “Truther” theories. If there was anything to Trutherism, it would have been mainstream news years ago. The only people pushing at-right, anti-semites conspiracy woo now are the fringe alt-right. And you’re badly mangling the logical fallacy critique, which only applies to people debating each other, not entire groups or political interests. If the only interests pushing a theory are fringe right racists, you don’t need a logical fallacy… Read more »

CloudSlicer
CloudSlicer
Sep 20, 2016 5:47 PM
Reply to  Questions

Eh? Do you think you could please explain that again, but calmly and carefully this time, in simple English? And preferably without all the ad hom – all it does is expose your obviously irrational bias.

binra
binra
Sep 20, 2016 7:08 PM
Reply to  Questions

A premise for elitism: the public are unqualified and their communications are invalid. Technocracy will tell them what to think. But mostly, they will be relieved of the capacity to think. An elitist cartel-protecting ‘educational’ process will confer credentials of official sanction via corrupted institutions. Invalidation of other human beings is used to justify denying them a voice or indeed their humanity in a call to join in hate – which is first to shout blame at everything it embodies… in the ‘other’. But where there is no willingness for humanity – for an outcome arising from communication and relationship – there is no conversation to be had. Jesus called it the lie and the father of the lie – for it is a self-replicating negative loop. A sort of perpetual war machine. “Just don’t go there!” Not that it is truly forbidden or it COULD not be chosen, but… Read more »

CloudSlicer
CloudSlicer
Sep 20, 2016 10:14 AM
Reply to  Questions

@Questions: “Trutherism is a fraud and it’s dead.”
It seems that all people like ‘Questions’ can do is make constant pejorative references to ‘Truthers’ and ‘frauds’ – whilst blithely ignoring the sound scientific research and evidence which indicates very strongly that the official story has no reasoned foundation which fits the evidence.
Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth ( http://www.ae911truth.org/ ) has well over 2,600 qualified, highly experienced and professional architects, engineers and scientists who really do know what they are talking about, and who are calling for a new independent investigation into the events of 9/11. Anyone interested in the science of the destruction of the WTC buildings can download and read a free copy of their booklet “BEYOND MISINFORMATION : What Science Says About the Destruction of World Trade Center Buildings 1, 2, and 7” from this link:
http://cafr1.com/Beyond-Misinformation-2015.pdf

Questions
Questions
Sep 20, 2016 3:58 PM
Reply to  CloudSlicer

“AE911truth? A fraud run by one guy that funds at least one 911 truther website, while said website claims to get no funding.”
Perhaps you’d like to ask for more information on this subject? You can start with Richard Gage’s tax returns, and an interesting notation that strongly implies his organization funds the conspiracy website 911blogger.com, which claims to get no funding.
You seem to think you know how to fact check, so I’ll let you try first. Later, if you’ve had no luck, I can direct you to the information. Or someone else might.
Gage is a conman. Keep your money in your pocket.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2016 4:20 PM
Reply to  Questions

From the “facts” of 9/11 to Richard Gage’s tax returns. Do you not see the relevance? Another absolutely crucial detail that we “truthers” have been leaving out of account. Thank you, Mr. Questions, for helping me focus on the essential issues of the matter at hand.

windjammer
windjammer
Oct 7, 2016 8:16 PM
Reply to  Questions

Smear? Gage could have made a LOT more money just maintaining a lowly architectural biz in SF these days. But some people act on their conscience even if it costs them a lot.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2016 3:24 PM
Reply to  Questions

“Every major talking point of Trutherism was invented by someone in the alt right, then repackaged for mainstream, or at least alternative left, consumption.” This just in: a guy from the alt right who goes by the name of Antoine Lavoisier claims that careful observation and experiment proves that matter is neither created nor destroyed, that is, that energy in any isolated system of interactions remains constant. He then went to mumble something beneath his breath about his “truther” and loyal sidekick, Sir Isaac Newton, claiming that he long ago proved that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. He then blurted out that he simply could not comprehend how, taking these two empirically well grounded assumptions as fundamental premises, everything that is claimed to have happened on 9/11 could have happened. He was then pilloried by one Jerome Fryer, a Mr. Questions, and a Joe Asskicker,… Read more »

windjammer
windjammer
Oct 7, 2016 8:19 PM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

There’s a possibility the loons are being paid to remain.

marc
marc
Sep 20, 2016 8:37 AM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Jerome, can you provide us with some strong evidence as to how the AlQaeda jihadists secretly and successfully carried out this massive, complicated conspiracy on foreign soil: how did they successfully conspire to simultaneously hijack four planes and skilfully fly them into iconic targets?
How did they know that no jets would scramble (as they always very effectively did) to ruin their precision plans?
How did Al Qaeda know about the 90 minute stand-down of US air force that very morning – the exact window of opportunity they required?

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 20, 2016 10:04 AM
Reply to  marc

There is plenty of material that goes into all of that. For example, the FBI already knew that some of the group were planning on aircraft hijack, for example, but they did not know anything about the scope of what was being planned. The CIA may have, but failed to pass this information on to the FBI (and vice versa). So was that more likely to be 1) the usual beureucratic screw-up and turf-protecting behaviour, or 2) part of an enormous conspiracy. It simply doesn’t make sense to dismiss a simple explanation that does, if you bother to look into it (instead of allowing yourself to be bamboozled by woo), make perfect sense. Why assume a hugely complex conspiracy with extraordinary elements? ‘Truthers’ will accept that a massive conspiracy with high complexity (and no obvious benefits to the conspirators) is feasible, but then turn around and claim that buildings collapsing… Read more »

CloudSlicer
CloudSlicer
Sep 20, 2016 1:44 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

It seems, Jerome, that you cannot resist repeatedly using ad hom references to ‘Truthers’ (a known pejorative) and how they try to ‘bamboozle people by woo’ into some false and fantastic view of the world. And all because you refuse to accept the sound and reasoned objections some people have made to the ‘official conspiracy theory’ about 9/11. Your intention is clearly to try to paint people who attempt to work out what actually must have happened, as individuals who are somehow mentally deficient or deranged in some way, in the hope that this will persuade others not to take what they say seriously. That clearly seems to be your personal agenda here. But, 9/11 is a very serious issue which has not been properly examined or investigated because the US government prevented such taking place. The two co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission, Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton,said that the… Read more »

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 20, 2016 2:33 PM
Reply to  CloudSlicer

The ‘Gish Gallop’ doesn’t work well with me. I have limited time, so if you don’t get to the point I assume that you’re editorialising and just read the first and last paragraphs, and scan the rest.
Some ‘truthers’ embrace that term, some don’t. Everyone knows what it refers to.

Your thirty seconds of several edited snippets omits the east penthouse collapse in every single example. Here’s a full shot:
https://youtu.be/3PC3HWdUPHU
Note that the east penthouse falls in (7:20) a full seven seconds before the outer perimeter starts to collapse (7:27).
What do you think was going on during that seven seconds? Notice the daylight visible through the top Windows on the left, after that huge engineering section goes for a trip somewhere lower down in the building. Did you ever see that noted in your ‘truther’ sources?

CloudSlicer
CloudSlicer
Sep 20, 2016 5:17 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

That’s an interesting debating technique Jerome; you are one of the people spending a lot of time on these threads, but when someone takes the trouble to refute some of the points you make you quickly pull out a new label (Gish Gallop) to conveniently avoid the argument, and say you don’t have the time to read what has been said. That’s really quite lazy, as well as being deceptive and disingenuous. With reference to your posted video: The east penthouse falls first, true. It is soon followed by other structures visible on the roof, before the whole perimeter structure goes into a free-fall collapse. This is typical of a well known controlled demolition technique called ‘implosion’, whereby some of the core/inner columns in a building are cut first (the ones under the east penthouse, for instance) in order to first weaken the overall structure and to place the outer,… Read more »

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 21, 2016 4:52 AM
Reply to  CloudSlicer

“The east penthouse falls first, true.”
Yet this is always omitted from ‘truther’ edits.
“This is typical of a well known controlled demolition technique called ‘implosion’”
If this supports the ‘truther’ controlled demolition assertion, why is it edited out?

binra
binra
Sep 20, 2016 2:40 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Iraq’s post-war (sic) situation can be plausibly denied as a failure of post war vision – and it can be seen as executed by design. Destructive agenda has no intention of fulfilling any of its war-justifying calls for freedom and democracy and no more than a few token exceptions of any care for the people involved. Love dies, hate laughs. Deceit pervades like a fungus below the ground and 9/11 is like a toadstool to spore another phase of the takeover from within… our own minds. Deceit is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But why should “mega-conspiracy” not operate through the cover of “usual bureaucratic screw-up”. No one but the fewest need actually be in the ‘1%’ insider circle. Everyone else is manipulated through the usual means and knows only what they are allowed or deceived into believing. Why? Because they CAN – and declare it in the act. The… Read more »

windjammer
windjammer
Oct 7, 2016 8:29 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Seems that communications in the standard military chain of command are only as strong as their weakest link. This is why we have the old wartime yarn that “Send reinforcements, we’re going to advance” can easily turn into “Send three and fourpence, we’re going to a dance”.
Nearly everyone in the FAA and the Air Force exhibited a profound pandemic of confusion that day, a confusion that is so easily engineered and then covered up, with false blips on radar screens, war games that “went live”, and key people in command that went AWOL but still got a promotion later.
Pilots for 9/11 Truth have amassed a lot of data worth examining.

john miller
john miller
Sep 20, 2016 5:00 PM
Reply to  marc

Wow, the massive complicated conspiracy on foreign soil… What? Gee whiz, they bought tickets to fly. And then they did the most complicated plot ever… it has many steps… 1. Take planes. 2. Crash planes. Imagine the massive training, learning to cut throats. What a skill set. Imagine the massive funding, 5 dollar knives. Wow. Imagine that most America kids off the street with no training can fly a 767/757 better than the four failed idiot terrorist pilots. 9/11 truth claims are based on the overwhelming ignorance of the believers. Sums up the movement based on lies, failed opinions, zero science, and a lot of BS. The plot, too complicated for… How did they secretly buy airline tickets to fly that day? Paid cash. They did not tell the crew or the airline they were going to stab crew members, kill pilots, and take planes. Keeping it a secret by… Read more »

CloudSlicer
CloudSlicer
Sep 20, 2016 6:17 PM
Reply to  john miller

Wow! Now I think I know what Jerome means by a ‘Gish Gallop’.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2016 7:01 PM
Reply to  CloudSlicer

Yup, that certainly is a lot of galloping bullshit . . .
We really should brace ourselves. I fear an avalanche may be in the offing.
Everyone, do have your Japanese nose pinchers at the ready!
You are going to need them . . .

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 21, 2016 4:52 AM
Reply to  CloudSlicer

No, but Norman gives an example below.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2016 5:37 AM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

. . . with the exception that my Gish is all referenced to source, eh, Jerome.

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 21, 2016 8:33 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop
“Although it takes a trivial amount of effort on the galloper’s part to make each individual point before skipping on to the next (particularly if they cite from a pre-concocted list of gallop arguments), a refutation of the same gallop may likely take much longer and require significantly more effort (per the basic principle that it’s always easier to make a mess than to clean it back up again).”
An example would be copy-pasting from your personal website, or other store of pre-fabricated woo.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2016 6:46 PM
Reply to  john miller

@ john miller the pilot, “Imagine that most America kids off the street with no training can fly a 767/757 better than the four failed idiot terrorist pilots.” Ah, yes, idiots pilots and our exceptional American kids. And you are a pilot, no less . . . Yes, well, here’s what other pilots have said about being able to pilot the jets in question: “Unlike a small private plane where pilots generally fly visually, a commercial plane like those hijacked [on September 11] requires a vast command of navigation techniques as well as in-depth knowledge of their myriad systems, from hydraulics to the autopilot.” [7] Michael Barr, the director of aviation safety programs at the University of Southern California, and several commercial airline pilots told the Boston Globe that “they assumed that the terrorists were skilled pilots who had to have received some training in flying transport jets, particularly the… Read more »

john miller
john miller
Sep 21, 2016 6:18 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

The cool part, you can’t show any skilled flying on 9/11, you got hearsay. I am an engineer too. I have an ATP, and a masters in Engineering. You got cherry-picked BS, and quote mining down to an art. You have no clue what skilled flying would be. Take the time to get the FDR, you can see the smooth control by the pilots before they were killed, and then the erratic not skilled flying of murderers… Hani’s bank angle control was erratic, not skilled. His airspeed control sucked. But you failed to take the time to be skeptical of news sources and BS experts to get the data. It is easy to crash, and I have flown with kids who flew better without training than the terrorists. I have all the Radar data, and the FDR for 77 and 93, I studied the data, and found no skilled flying… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2016 7:51 AM
Reply to  john miller

You are but an anonymous voice on the internet, Mr. john miller the engineer-cum-pilot, who on the basis of a vaunted engineering and piloting expertise wants us to take his word for everything he comes here to gratuitously asserts. How do we verify your assertions? Other “confirmed” pilots have made and are making assertions that flatly contradict your assertions, and they are more than a handful and aren’t hiding behind the anonymity of a persona that can pretend to be anything he wants to pretend he is. It’s more than mere hearsay if many people with a relevant and publicly verifiable expertise to an issue corroborate one another in their assertions. That’s how knowledge of the world actually works, Mr. john miller the engineer-cum-pilot. If you push the issue far enough, anything can be said to be worthless hearsay. But as it happens, some people are actually reliable as witnesses… Read more »

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 21, 2016 8:37 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

“But as it happens, some people are actually reliable as witnesses and researchers, and that becomes evident in the manner they relate information, in their accuracy and honesty, and collectively they end up producing a body of work that finds its testimony in real world outcomes.”
It also helps if they work under an accreditation regime. If they’re extremely competent they may even manage to get a job in a national standards lab.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2016 2:48 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Or work at a university?

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 21, 2016 3:30 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Universities don’t work under accreditation regimes. You are confusing commercial and academic practices.
National labs have multiple roles, inclusive of helping manage the technical aspects of the commercial labs.
The technical experts that assess our competence are drawn from our national lab. (Although they don’t have to be.)

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2016 5:39 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Where do you think the “science” that underpins the “expertise,” and on which that “expertise” elaborates, of any lab worthy of the name originates, Jerome? Are you really as insipid as your remark would suggest?

john miller
john miller
Sep 21, 2016 5:54 PM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Norman, why can’t you explain what was so skillful about crashing on 9/11. Do you have the FDR for 93 and 77, the data? I do, and it shows a lack of skill, but good enough to crash into some of the largest buildings on earth. You quote mine and cherry pick pilot statements who failed to study the FDR, and failed to point out what was skillful, what was so hard to do. The flying on 9/11 was rookie class. Flight 77 showed up in DC too high, he had to do a circle decent to get down, he failed to skillful enough to figure out his decent to get down, so he did a turn and it was not even standard rate. As you attack me, you fail to make point past the fact you provided evidence you are gullible, and are not skeptical of BS you googled.… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2016 6:19 PM
Reply to  john miller

More vacuous and unsubstantiated hot air, Mr. john miller engineer-cum-pilot, that is to say, for someone with a “masters in Engineering” you are not particularly conscientious about providing citations, eh. You mention “data” that “proves” the hijackers were flakes but could nevertheless achieve their objectives. Where is this blessed “data”. Where did you get your little diagram? Where does it originate from? And this is priceless, eh: “This is a sample of the airline pilots turn, and the terrorists turn, Bank angle control does not exist for the terrorists, they meander around the sky, This is not skill, it is failed humans out to murder, they showed no skill at flying, they only had motivation to kill. ” And motivation is all you need to hit two buildings in New York after flaying hundreds of miles and then the Pentagon, also. A 100% kill rate from a bunch of duffers.… Read more »

Nick
Nick
Sep 20, 2016 1:53 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Hopefully someone from your forum link will present a cogent counter-arguement here. As the eds say it would be a welcome addition to debates.
As for the the forum comments themselves, most of them seem to be written by you, and the others are a mish mash of childish insults and largely content-free assumptions. That said I was interested to see the passenger manifest links.

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 20, 2016 2:38 PM
Reply to  Nick

“As for the the forum comments themselves, most of them seem to be written by you”
If you mean the ISL forums, then I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. I only registered on there a couple of days ago, and have written thirteen posts so far, mostly explaining (or excusing) this website.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311955

Nick
Nick
Sep 20, 2016 4:00 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

I mean specifically the thread you link to, where you ask the ISL community to contribute here because you say you’re “not qualified to make a strong case for the no-conspiracy / physics is adequate argument”.
Despite not being qualified, as you note, it’s strange that you make such a rigidly dogmatic case for your chosen conspiracy theory.

joekano76
joekano76
Sep 20, 2016 2:26 AM

Reblogged this on TheFlippinTruth.

binra
binra
Sep 20, 2016 1:38 AM

I appreciate the manner and the content of this posting. I see a reflection of our world being co-opted or subverted by secretive unaccountable cartels of power establishment in the structure of our human consciousness – being run by conditioned subconscious habits and unconscious and even pre rational conditioning. But that this is being exposed or less able to disguise itself. This is not easy to link to political events because the framing of our thought is that our personal consciousness is weak or imaginary and of little if any consequence in a world of powers seen as beyond our control – who effectively own or have undue influence in the arena of such control and therefore manage consensus perceptions. But regardless, I see the a situation similar to a bot net of hacked computers being used without their (owners) knowledge – in secret – as part of an orchestrated… Read more »

Brian Burgess
Brian Burgess
Sep 20, 2016 12:30 AM

Muslin terrorists hijacked planes and flew 2 of them into the twin towers. These are the facts. Everything else is a convoluted attempt to try to deal with the cognitive dissonance engendered by the assault upon so many people’s world view. The ongoing obsrssion with trying to find evidence that the CIA or shadowy US Government entities were somehow behind the attacks or at least complicit in them reminds me of the equally fervent attempts by some to find a “cover up” behind UFOs and the supposed Roswell crash for example. Why can’t people just accept that the terrorists were behind it and that America despite its great military and political might is not all-powerful. That is the truth.

spinach
spinach
Sep 20, 2016 2:12 AM
Reply to  Brian Burgess

You are clearly a smart person, Brian, may I respectfully advise you to have a read of the doubter’s arguments – see Architects and Engineers For 9/11 Truth et al – as they really aren’t as far-fetched as you think. Given the range of very intelligent people nowadays doing nothing more than calling for a reinvestigation into the many holes left in the official accounts/reports, it could be argued that to steadfastly defend the official story is far more deluded, far-fetched and fanciful and anything else! All the best to you, though. T

binra
binra
Sep 20, 2016 1:13 PM
Reply to  Brian Burgess

Cognitive Dissonance and Conscious Choice: An interesting typo there Brian. Is the muslin being pulled over your mind. If you confined yourself to investigating only these muslins – you would discover a false narrative presentation – and would have to consider why – for what purpose and for whose agenda? Welcome to Terrorland: Mohamed Atta and the 9-11 Cover-Up in Florida by Daniel Hopsicker. But I suspect you wont – perhaps because you want to put it behind you and get on with a less troubled life. No blame – but if it is an active agenda then it is not and wont be ‘behind you’ but simply out of your mind – and thus more freely operating without your awareness or consent – excepting your conditioned response to look away in the convenience of an official narrative you accepted true. If you don’t understand that loveless and indeed hateful… Read more »

rschop
rschop
Sep 20, 2016 12:10 AM

This site has a very accurate and insightful view on the 9/11 attacks. One web site has a summary and has published several books on 9/11 which discuss these exact subjects in particular the subject: “The tracking and surveillance by intelligence agencies,” The first book is called “Prior Knowledge of 9/11”. These books are based on the following sources: Aggregating the DOJ IG report, combined with the Joint Inquiry Report and the 9/11 Commission report, along with the book, “State of Denial” by Bob Woodward, and the “Account of FBI Agent Ali Soufan”, lead FBI investigator on the Cole bombing, by Lawrence Wright, Ken Silverstein’s article on January 2007, “Meet the new CIA Station Chief Richard Blee”, along with the Moussaoui Defense Exhibits. and the document “CIA requests changes to Staff (9/11 Commission) Statement # 10”. Richard Blee, had been head of the CIA bin Laden unit and the CIA… Read more »

binra
binra
Sep 20, 2016 1:17 PM
Reply to  rschop

I looked for a link – can you provide one. I’m sure I can goggle it down but a link would be for everyone’s convenience.
Thankyou

rschop
rschop
Sep 21, 2016 5:36 AM
Reply to  binra

Yes, the site is http://www.eventson911.com. On this site are many government documents that actually prove that the CIA using FBI HQ’s agents and managers that they had corrupted, shut down the FBI criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. FBI IOS Agent Dina Corsi, under supervision of CIA officer Tom Wilshire, shut down FBI Agent Steve Bongardt’s criminal investigation of these two al Qaeda terrorists, even though both agencies knew a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US, knew that al Qaeda terrorists Mihdhar and Hazmi were in in the US in order to take part in this attack and even knew shutting down Bongardt’s criminal investigation would allow this attack to take place killing thousands of Americans. Tom Wilshire was the CIA officer who had been moved over to the FBI ITOS unit in mid-May as a CIA spy to find out… Read more »

Nick G.
Nick G.
Sep 19, 2016 11:36 PM

Fantastic piece Mog – refreshing to read something laid out in a tone that has been somewhat lacking in parts of the comments threads over the OffG 9/11 series.

Willem
Willem
Sep 19, 2016 7:22 PM

The reporting of 911 by OffG and its contributors has kind of changed my mind on 911. It is not that I believed the official 911 story before OffG started this series, and now I am happily cleansed from the brainwash and know better. I also did not change my mind as to whether this trying to expose 911 for what it is will lead to the answer of what really happened at 911 (we will never find out is still my impression). But what has changed my mind, is my initial thought that people who distrust the official 911 story and try to expose reality, are performing a job that is a waste of time and energy. This is not true, since 911 truthers behave like a movement. Therefore, I have changed my mind. I am sure that many here are familiar with the book a people’s history of… Read more »

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 21, 2016 9:10 AM
Reply to  Willem

The Chomsky citation seems unlikely.
https://www.rt.com/usa/noam-chomsky-911-truthers-342/

During his explanation, Chomsky also dismissed claims that the government was responsible for bringing the towers down.
“There is just overwhelming evidence that the Bush administration wasn’t involved,” he said. “Very elementary evidence. You don’t have to be a physicist to understand it. You just have to think for a minute.”
Chomsky said that even though the Bush administration clearly wanted to invade Iraq, it blamed 9/11 on Saudi hijackers. He said it could have easily blamed the attacks on Iraqi hijackers instead of presenting claims about Al- Qaeda connections to Saddam Hussein and Iraq amassing weapons of mass destruction.

CloudSlicer
CloudSlicer
Sep 19, 2016 5:44 PM

Thank you Mog for this excellent piece on Off-Guardian’s attempts to open up the important debate about the truth and lies of 9/11. An open and honest debate about this seminal criminal event of the 21st century is very long overdue. 9/11 has given birth to the most appalling horrors of war, the death, maiming and displacement of millions of innocent people, the erosion of human and civil rights, mass surveillance, and an endless stream of other negative effects.
If we do not attempt to examine this crime properly, irrespective of who the guilty actors may be, then we become collectively complicit in it. And those individuals and agencies who try, by whatever means and for whatever reasons, to deliberately suppress such attempts to expose and examine the truth are especially complicit.

Jen
Jen
Sep 20, 2016 4:04 AM
Reply to  CloudSlicer

Seconded.

michaelk
michaelk
Sep 19, 2016 5:06 PM

The study of Power in society, has for a long time, modern time that is, gone out of fashion almost everywhere. For a long time, decades, the concept almost vanished from public discourse. Power seemed somhow rather ‘old fashioned’ in the bright and gilded sixties and afterwards. Power in a democratic society appeared almost not to really exist or have relevance because we all had it, power was shared and evenly distributed among people, in a democracy. At least that was the theory. So let’s study something else, like gender politics and identity politics instead. There was money there and fame. Who was this guy Machiavelli, anyway? We didn’t have Princes anymore did we, so why bother with him? But, as the political consensus around the ‘middle’ began to crumble as the economy changed and wealth was redistributed upwards, Power, once neglected, began to slowly re-emerge from the shadows and… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 19, 2016 5:53 PM
Reply to  michaelk

In modern society, power is grounded in organizations, and these units of integrated and coordinated activities require resources in materials and intellectual wherewithal. Since we live in a money economy where everything and everyone is a commodity, allegiance and materials can be purchased and go to the highest bidders, to serve their both their personal and public whims. It follows that the people with the most money to throw around have the most power since they can command the most material and best talent up for either formal or informal (secretive) sale. Any organisation that is highly developed and sophisticated in its operations is therefore beholden to big money. Their cannot be criminal organizations that do not serve the upper tiers of wealth. Anything that happens on the scale of 9/11 cannot happen without material and logistical talent, and that material and talent can only be “bought.” Power, in other… Read more »

Joe Asskicker
Joe Asskicker
Sep 19, 2016 4:18 PM

Wow, mog is just another braindead conspiracy moron. Maximum Cringe. And they told me all lunatics are locked away.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 19, 2016 5:31 PM
Reply to  Joe Asskicker

“And they told me all lunatics are locked away.”
Who told you? Your asylum keepers or your jailers?

CloudSlicer
CloudSlicer
Sep 19, 2016 5:50 PM
Reply to  Joe Asskicker

“mog is just another braindead conspiracy moron”
I’m sorry, but the idea is to try to have an intelligent debate here.
If your particular game is calling people names instead of engaging in reasoned arguments, then you should go and do it elsewhere.

Joe Asskicker
Joe Asskicker
Sep 20, 2016 9:48 AM
Reply to  CloudSlicer

“intelligent debate”
LOL, well to do this someone would have to delete this trainwreck of an article full of arrogant twoofer woo.
Then, you worthless, braindead twoofers would have to realize that 9/11 is not a matter of debate like in your gender free vegan hipster group 🙂
If someone has proof for conspiracies on 9/11, compile the evidence and go to the FBI. Anything else is just attention whoring from a drug addicted nobody.
So,mog, instead of “just asking questions” (JAQing off) answer the questions yourself and bring the evil wrongdoers to justice. But hurry, you’re 15 years late already ^^

Admin
Admin
Sep 20, 2016 10:05 AM
Reply to  Joe Asskicker

Mr Asskicker – we don’t allow content-free ad hom or trolling here, but since you’re new we’ll let this one pass.
I’m going to take a punt and guess you have come here from the “International Skeptic” forum where Jerome Fryer has been posting asking – quite reasonably – for people to come here and help him rebut the articles we have posted by scientists critical of NIST.
We are really keen to get cogent opposing views, so if you can do such a rebuttal we’ll be happy to host it. But be warned, you will need sourced facts and some grasp of science. Saying “ha-ha you suck” will not have the impact here it generally seems to have amongst your friends on the ISF.
And please note that any further content-free ad hom will likely be deleted.

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 20, 2016 1:06 PM
Reply to  Admin

“we don’t allow content-free ad hom or trolling here”
You still haven’t answered my question about why “Pentagon shill” was ad-hominem, while “Hasbara terrorist” isn’t. Do you believe that the second assertion was correct?
What is the editorial view on anti-Semitism? Are you more afraid of the dark arts of the Pentagon (beware their extraordinary powers of losing track of vast sums of money; marvel at their incapability to successfully argue for what the US military needs vs. what political donor corporations want the taxpayer to buy) than shadowy Mossad agents?
You seem a weird lot.

Admin
Admin
Sep 20, 2016 2:33 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

We delete or edit extremes of anti-semitism on a daily basis. We remove content-free ad hom from both sides of the 9/11 debate. Of course you think we are biased against you. We’ve had identical complaints from the “other side.”
Do not try to turn this into a longer conversation.
edit: if you have a complaint about content-free ad hom that has slipped through email us at [email protected] with a link to the offending remark.

binra
binra
Sep 20, 2016 7:21 PM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

Again the framing of a personal sense of coming into a group of ‘truthers’ who are sported with or baited, but never treated as equals worthy of engaging in communication – while using whatever is said to them… only as mask or ammunition to remain in a superior presumption of judgement over. Jerome may not be an expression of artificial Intelligence – but he is running to a mechanical or fixed script.

Joe Asskicker
Joe Asskicker
Sep 23, 2016 1:05 PM
Reply to  Admin

Question: Where are the sourced facts in mogs article?

John
John
Sep 19, 2016 3:12 PM

Off Guardian is discrediting the Left and giving undeserved credibility to the real Guardian by pursuing this 9/11 conspiracy nonsense. What’s particularly laughable is that the site complains about the Guardian moderating comments but won’t accept mine.

deschutes
deschutes
Sep 19, 2016 4:02 PM
Reply to  John

Epic fail dude.

JJA
JJA
Sep 19, 2016 4:19 PM
Reply to  John

In what way discrediting the left?
Whether or not the twin towers was a genuine terrorist attack or some kind of inside job, the very fact that the US government obstructed and obscured any full and comprehensive and objective inquiry and wilfully destroyed evidence, from CCTV footage in Washington to shipping off scrap from the towers asap, where Bush and Cheney were interviewed together not under oath, numerous Saudi citizens were able to leave US asap and all sorts of other potential ‘irregularities’ were never pursued, surely allows scope for scepticism as to underlying truths, especially as it ultimately unleashed a never ending ‘war on terror’ by the US and its vassals that have killed, maimed or displaced millions since 2001.

Nick G.
Nick G.
Sep 19, 2016 11:50 PM
Reply to  John

I don’t want to be part of any ‘Left’ that stops asking questions and exerting pressure over the myriad lies told to us about 9/11.

Jerome Fryer
Jerome Fryer
Sep 20, 2016 4:20 AM
Reply to  John

Have they been nuking your comments?

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2016 5:35 AM
Reply to  Jerome Fryer

No, but we will be nuking yours. Well, nuking would be overkill, especially when all that is really needed is a peashooter, eh.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 19, 2016 3:05 PM

Reblogged this on Taking Sides.

paulcarline
paulcarline
Sep 19, 2016 3:00 PM

Indeed! I’m sure Mog would agree that the blame lies not just with the originators of the lies – primarily the US government – but with all those in media and politics and academia and elsewhere who have failed to expose them (the originators and the lies). It has been the craven repetition and even robust defence of the lies – especially by the BBC in the UK – that has allowed them to take on the appearance of truth. Why otherwise more than adequately informed people such as Chomsky, Pilger and Monbiot have resolutely supported the debunkers and have joined the ranks of the “gatekeepers” as Mog writes, seems to me to be explicable only in terms of their allegiance to an evidentially flawed “Leftist” position that desperately wants 9/11 to be an instance of “blowback” – the supposed “little people” hitting back at the Great Satan; or to… Read more »

Husq
Husq
Sep 19, 2016 7:37 PM
Reply to  paulcarline

In the same year he predicted WWI.<

The plans of which go back further.
http://www.schauungen.de/Sonstiges/TheKaisersDream/KaisersDreamgro%DF.jpg

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 19, 2016 7:50 PM
Reply to  Husq

I like that on the map Russia is a “Desert,” just as North America was complete and utter “wilderness.” Oh, sure, perhaps inhabited by 50 or score more millions of people, but savages, eh. So “desert” or “wilderness” is an apt descriptor.

Husq
Husq
Sep 19, 2016 9:04 PM
Reply to  Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 19, 2016 9:47 PM
Reply to  Husq

Had a read. It’s a different worldview from my own. I tend to come at things from a Marxist perspective, but not that I discount the ‘fact’ that there are secretive coteries of rich bastards amusing themselves at playing a game of “I”m the ruler of the entire world.” As for the revolution in Russia and its connection to Wall Street, that should not really be surprising to anyone who both follows current affairs and reads a bit of history. Tsarist Russia was a regime in the way of Western bourgeois capital and it was only natural that that capital would try to instigate a revolution for which there actually were objective grounds for revolution, that is to say, the fact that Russians really were grotesquely put upon by Tsarism and becoming increasing restive, indeed, just as we see today in the Middle East, where Western interests co-opt popular uprisings… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 19, 2016 9:52 PM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Correction to what I just wrote:
Not: ” . . . just as we see today in the Middle East, where Western interests co-opt popular uprisings — as in Egypt and more recently in Syria — both to use it to topple the ruling networks of elites and to narrowly circumscribe or limit the gains of the revolt in favor of the popular masses of Russia.”
But: “… just as we see today in the Middle East, where Western interests co-opt popular uprisings — as in Egypt and more recently in Syria — both to use it to topple the ruling networks of elites and to narrowly circumscribe or limit the gains of the revolt so as not to overly favor of the entitlements of the popular masses.”

binra
binra
Sep 20, 2016 8:11 PM
Reply to  Husq

“But the flip-side of the conspiracy coin is the proliferation of fanciful and fantastic theories that now crisscross the globe in seconds with the help of electronic media. ” (From the text linked) Another flop side is that astroturfing generates many such sites as a means of diluting and discrediting. I believe the ‘inner’ aspect to ‘outer’ experience is key – for without the key, the struggle to manipulate outcomes deals only with effects or symptoms – never seeking or addressing cause. There are many perspectives that do not usually find any consideration in political discourse. Esoteric means hidden, from what I might call surface consciousness – which is similar to the matrix idea of a masking presentation. The sense of being denied whole truth also needs to own the desire to be protected from truth when its exposure is believed too terrifying or mind-breaking. This is not usually a… Read more »

Matt Parry
Matt Parry
Oct 1, 2016 6:16 PM
Reply to  binra

Hello to the person whom’s chosen name is binra. I have read the comment thread on this article and your arc of knowledge is truly projectional and demonstrates what an ‘open mind’ can accomplish. Your words are chosen far better than I can currently place with your points on Elitism, destructive agenda, and the inner group are all true and there is an agent of that agenda posting on here. Throughout our time on this planet we see the use of fear and control to stop an awakening of collective conscience. The parts of the jigsaw puzzle are scattered to be found – but most go from the crisis of being born to the fear of time to die without even collecting one part of the puzzle stuck in the fuzziness of the mind helped by these agents, You state that you are not concerned as to whether or when… Read more »

binra
binra
Oct 2, 2016 3:21 PM
Reply to  Matt Parry

I feel willingness to witness into a public attention in that which I feel a resonance and movement to engage with or comment into. And an unwillingness to closet or withhold that which I grow in, by sharing it… The ‘spell’ is ingeniously defended against waking – for that was its original purpose of employment. Part of the defence is the … Motivation is simple – we move toward fulfilment (as we each define it) and we move away from pain of loss (as we each define it. Whereas a living cell will do the same in attraction to nutrient and repulsion from toxin – we have the ‘mind’ of self definition that generates…. So why would I not be ‘here’? and what more motivation do I need than to share in a fulfilment that is not ‘waiting’ for results – but living who I am – as I enjoy… Read more »