VIDEO: Bioethics, Eugenics and the “after-birth abortion” of newborns
A video from BoilingFrogsPost.com (2012), shown here in full for the first time.
How many of our readers are aware of the paper from 2012 entitled “After-birth abortions; why should the baby live”? Here’s a screenshot of the abstract:
It’s real. Not a sick joke or satire. It’s a serious, academic argument for the murder of new born, healthy, full term babies. Because they “do not have the same moral status as actual persons.”
Still don’t believe it? Here’s the open letter (published in the “Journal of Medical Ethics” no less) in which the authors “defend” their grotesque psychopathy.
Maybe it’s time for full disclosure of the covertly Nazi ideologies haunting the edges of the neoliberal agenda. Are the current campaigns for “voluntary euthanasia” exclusively and essentially benign? Selling an obscene ideology to decent people requires the slow normalising of the unthinkable. How long before the creep toward tiered notions of “personhood” means we see academic papers suggesting the elderly, the disabled, the chronically unemployed, the “anti-social” and just the indefinably different are also slightly less than “actual persons”, for whom non-voluntary euthanasia is a decent and economic choice?
Transcript and show notes here
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GM, I’m curious. You wrote that the value of a scientist is greater than a subsistence farmer. I think your rationale was that a scientist was of greater value because the scientist could increase the probability of human survival, is that correct?
Looking at history, I could imagine that the recent explosion of human population has been, at least in part, due to scientific discoveries. Is that your view?
Do you think scientific discoveries might play a role in any of the threats that confront humanity today? I happen to agree with you about overpopulation, at least in part. But looking at the record so far I think farmers feeding themselves are a much smaller threat than you.
Looking at history, I could imagine that the recent explosion of human population has been, at least in part, due to scientific discoveries. Is that your view? Yes, of course, it has been, But this is because as a whole we are still behaving as dumb mindless animals, not as the rational self-aware species we like to imagine we are Remember Borlaug’s (the man most responsible for the Green Revolution) Nobel Prize speech? He explicitly warned the world that the Green Revolution has only bought us some time, it has not solved the fundamental problem. That example is very much illustrative of the role science has played in the development of our predicament. Science gives us improved understanding of the world around us. Which does indeed allow us to more efficiently destroy our environment but it also allows us to know what the consequences of that would be. The problem… Read more »
I “like” how these smugly murderous “overpopulation” bastards always miss the obvious point…
https://berlin8berlin.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/the-imperialist-gift-shop/
A facinating and terrifying video. Coincidentally, or not, I am the author of a soon to be released dystopian novel, Quietus, in which a dictator uses euthanasia as a form of population control. It seems my theme is not so outlandish. This is something that is gaining acceptance in our society – the choice between keeping granny alive or hiring teachers.
In Canada, euthanasia and physician assisted suicide were recently decriminalized. The language surrounding this issue is being twisted. People are being killed now in the name of compassion. It is now assistance in dying rather than assisted suicide. It’s funny how a simple change in wording can make a horrendous act acceptable.
Just as eugenics gained a bad reputation due to the Nazis, so it changed its name to social biology. Beneath the gentrified term lurks the same ugly monster.
” People are being killed now in the name of compassion.”
Nonsense. There is a difference between ‘murdering’ infants and ‘helping’ granny, who may be both terminal and suffering and pleading for her misery to end.
I have a very close friend whose mother is scheduled for “assistance in dying” next Saturday (20 May 2017). She was diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer by the time it was ‘caught,’ and though availed of a ‘pain pump,’ suffers excruciating pain. At this point, she wants to die on a day of her choosing. Are yous suggesting that she should be denied, in her terminal misery, the right to end her torment?
I’m so sorry your friend’s mother is suffering severe pain. Accompaning a loved one one their final journey is a heart-wrenching experience, made worse when we see they are suffering. I wonder if your friend could ask the care-givers to investigate a different method of drug delivery or a different type of medication. It could be she has developed tolerance or it is not the correct medication to address her particular type of pain. No one should have to suffer that badly. I’m including a link to a website that you or your friend might find useful. I certainly wouldn’t suggest she have to suffer torment. Another option is comfort care involving palliative sedation until natural death.
https://patient.info/doctor/pain-control-in-palliative-care
Madelaine, I see nothing wrong with the choice that my friend’s mother has made. She is sound of mind, and having been a nurse by profession most of her, knows perfectly well the choices that are available to her in terms of palliative sedation. But like medical doctors who would not dare themselves undertake certain low probability radiation-and-chemotherapy treatments while adamantly urging these same pointless courses of treatments for their patients, treatments that earn profits for drug and medical equipment and “service” companies, she has borne witness too often as a nurse to what really had been pointless and legally enforced prolongations of misery. She quite simply doesn’t want it for herself, and in my opinion, is quite correct in her thinking. For some, there really comes a time in life when life is over and when one wants it to be over, and for these individuals, there is far… Read more »
The trouble is not the observance of the law but the abuse of the law. And the precedent it sets. In a decent society the legalisation of “assisted dying” in certain prescribed circumstances might be a good thing. But in the current climate of authoritarian fascism, is it really a good idea to give the state this additional potential weapon? The fact the neolibs are so supportive of “assisted dying” really ought to give us pause. After all, if murdering newborns can be mooted, how long before “assisted dying” becomes eased into “well, you might not WANT to die, but you would be better off dead – so we are going to assist you whether you like it or not”? And bear in mind also that “assisted dying” is practiced already without the need for the law. Every doctor and nurse knows when it’s appropriate to give a bit more… Read more »
“well, you might not WANT to die, but you would be better off dead – so we are going to assist you whether you like it or not”?” Question: is this the situation, now, in Canada? That is the issue I’m addressing. And I’m speaking from the viewpoint of someone who wants to die because the person is both terminally ill and suffering. That is a far cry away from “you are better off dead, so we will put you down irrespective of your wishes.” Of course I don’t agree with the latter. And of course, anyone who wants to live, at whatever cost to themselves, in whatever circumstances they may find themselves, should receive whatever care is known to mitigate his pain while prolonging life. But Madelaine’s purport was that in Canada “people are being killed now in the name of compassion.” Is that what’s happening? Does the law… Read more »
Words hold a lot of power. Why is it called “assisted dying?” Why not call it what it is, “assisted suicide?” It is because the softening of words makes the act somehow more acceptable. The laws forbidding PAS in Canada were just recently changed. We have not yet reached the stage of other countries, such as the Netherlands, where it has been legal for years. People have become increasingly tolerant towards transgressions of the law. To quote: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3070710/ “In 30 years, the Netherlands has moved from euthanasia of people who are terminally ill, to euthanasia of those who are chronically ill; from euthanasia for physical illness, to euthanasia for mental illness; from euthanasia for mental illness, to euthanasia for psychological distress or mental suffering—and now to euthanasia simply if a person is over the age of 70 and “tired of living.” Dutch euthanasia protocols have also moved from conscious patients… Read more »
“In 30 years, the Netherlands has moved from euthanasia of people who are terminally ill, to euthanasia of those who are chronically ill; from euthanasia for physical illness, to euthanasia for mental illness; from euthanasia for mental illness, to euthanasia for psychological distress or mental suffering—and now to euthanasia simply if a person is over the age of 70 and “tired of living.” Dutch euthanasia protocols have also moved from conscious patients providing explicit consent, to unconscious patients unable to provide consent.” This is beyond chilling and also directly related to why I’ve cautioned my loved ones not to carry organ donor cards, sadly, because we can no longer trust that the decision that one is or is not “beyond saving” will be done, on the spot, at the scene of an accident, in good faith. Unless we’re wealthy, our organs are, increasingly, worth more than we are. And, of… Read more »
True, StAug. Dystopian fiction is written as a (let’s hope exaggerated) warning of what may be. 1984, being a primary example. I have written more on the subject on my blog, if you want to come have a look.
Madelaine, I don’t know where Canada is heading. I only know what I consider to be ethical. Euthanizing someone without their consent is for me simply beyond the pale. “Involuntary euthanasia” and “non-voluntary euthanasia,” as defined in the brief to which you provided a link, are for me off the table. Helping someone who wants to commit suicide, who wants to die, who is fully aware and competent, on the presumption that the person is afflicted with physical torment from which there can be but little to no relief, is entirely morally commendable and ought to be, legally speaking, within any chronically suffering person’s rights. Assisted suicide, in a situation where an afflicted person has made a firm and informed decision but cannot alone consummate the act — by all means, with the help of competent medical professionals who can arrange for and oversee an ‘easy’ and ‘panic free’ death.… Read more »
Thank you, Norman, for your thoughtful replies. It is good to have a discussion with someone with differing views and not have it devolve into hateful comments and name-calling. I refuse to engage such people.
I haven’t watched the documentary you posted yet, but I will.
What you are talking about, I think, is autonomy. Just today, I posted on my blog about this issue. “Autonomy, Choosing one’s death day.” Go and have a look if you like.
Madelaine, I do not, on the whole, disagree with the points you make for the reasons you make them in the light of the examples you adduce. However, you do not really address the circumstances or the situation on which I am focused. I’m not advocating helping otherwise healthy depressives end their lives or deciding for others whether their lives are worth living. Far from it. I’m advocating for “assistance” when requested by a patient in a situation that is rather clear-cut and unambiguous: terminal and suffering as well as competent and consenting. The abuses compiled by Dr. Margaret Cottle bear no resemblance to the “situation” I’m addressing. Cottle and yourself want to prevent abuses. You argue that “government safeguards and guidelines are bound to fail,” but then you would “criminalize” assisted suicide. What is a “law” if not a government safeguard and guideline that if contravened triggers criminal prosecution?… Read more »
Madelaine, Dr. Cottle writes: A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine in March 2015 reviewed the most recent data in Belgium around hastened death. It showed that 4.6 percent of all deaths in Belgium were euthanasia deaths, while 1.7 percent of all deaths were euthanasia deaths without the explicit consent of the patient. While these percentages seem rather small, serious concerns emerge when compared to the mortality statistics in the U.S. There were 2,596,993 deaths in the U.S. in 2013, and 4.6 percent of that is almost 120,000 deaths. This would qualify physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia as the sixth leading cause of death in the U.S., almost as many as the fifth leading cause of death, strokes, with about 129,000 deaths . . . If in one instance, 4.6% seems a rather small number, why does it become a serious concern in the second instance, as if… Read more »
Question: is this the situation, now, in Canada? Probably not overtly, and not yet. But these things are always introduced in stages to allow the “normalising of the unthinkable.” The question isn’t why do decent people support assisted dying, because obviously they have decent motives, it’s why do the neoliberal fascists support it? Besides the notion of consent is always thorny. People don’t make decisions about anything without coming under influence from others. A person in terrible pain who receives even gentle pressure to opt for a quick exit might end up making a decision they don’t entirely want to make. And we can be sure the medical infrastructure will be reshaped slowly to make that kind of covert pressure a required norm. Why do we make murder a crime? Not for the majority of people who don’t want to kill anyone, but for the small minority who would do… Read more »
“The question isn’t why do decent people support assisted dying, because obviously they have decent motives . . .” Thus we agree that there are “decent” reasons for wanting to assist some people in ending their lives. And the law permitting such suicides exists to protect both those who assist anyone in this matter as well as the person being assisted, i.e., by prescribing the strict conditions under which assistance may be offered and the ways in which that assistance is to be provided, so as not to maim or harm, but effectively help the person succeed in his/her aim. “. . .why do the neoliberal fascists support it?” As good eugenicists, they see it as means of culling the herd and managing ‘costs,’ so to speak, to keep things efficiently operational from their corporate bureaucratic standpoint. It also satisfies their authoritarian yen to control and dominate all aspects of… Read more »
Did you read the assessment of how “mission creep” has affected the realities of “assisted suicide” in the Netherlands? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3070710/ “In 30 years, the Netherlands has moved from euthanasia of people who are terminally ill, to euthanasia of those who are chronically ill; from euthanasia for physical illness, to euthanasia for mental illness; from euthanasia for mental illness, to euthanasia for psychological distress or mental suffering—and now to euthanasia simply if a person is over the age of 70 and “tired of living.” Dutch euthanasia protocols have also moved from conscious patients providing explicit consent, to unconscious patients unable to provide consent.” This is the “normalising of the unthinkable” in action. This is why the neolibs support the thin end of the wedge that is “assisted dying.” Only a hopeless unrealist would believe it will play any differently in Canada or in any other country. Human nature and the current… Read more »
“Did you read the assessment of how “mission creep” has affected the realities of “assisted suicide” in the Netherlands?” Yes. And I entirely agree with you: people can come to accept anything at all as perfectly “normal” and morally justified. Perfectly decent people join the army all the time, literally running the risk of becoming complicit in the “murder” of innocent people, of ordinary people like themselves, for no other reason than they have to “follow orders” or have already been fooled by notions of “honor” or of “defending freedom and democracy for all” and other such abstract claptrap. And it is all perfectly respectable and accepted at large that they do. And we know (and many of them, also) that “they” are put up to “it” by the criminal ruling elements of our society. So I have no doubt whatsoever that the corporate fascists have “their” reasons for getting… Read more »
Of course, in my last comment, what I meant to write, to correct one paragraph, is:
Whatever I’ve got, I hope it’s not too serious. 🙂
When I was a young teenager, my Dad took a two year sabbatical from his corporate management career to work for the Spastics Society. Yes, in the pre-PC 70s, that is exactly what the charity was called. This afforded me the privilege to spend an extended amount of time with fellow human beings who were somehow more human, vivacious, loving and caring than I was, for all their supposed ‘disability’. This formative experience instilled me with the principle that no life can be deemed unworthy of life. End of. So it is not with an academic rationality and dispassion that I can look at anything, I’m sure this clouds my judgement. From my irrational armchair pseudo-academic emotive POV, I have looked at the problem of overpopulation and the crisis of humanity only to conclude it is far too complex a problem to propose a singular and simplistic solution. Especially one… Read more »
Susan George has debunked the theory of overpopulation and food shortages in her book A Fate Worse Than Debt (1998). However, the people who r rulinng the world are aware of the fact that their control rests on keeping humankind hungry, poor and powerless, hence their attempts to create food shortages, giving the impression of fuud insufficency. A hungry humanity gives the impression that food ahortage is due to overpopulation rather than unequal resource consumption, (north v/s south within regions, and rich v/s poor within countries) and so ordinary people are led into concluding that the problem is with people rather than resource distribution. In this backdrop, the academics do their work, which is to normalize abhorrent concepts by using the apparently-neutral language of science, eugenics being just one example. Whether a Black person should be considered 3/4 of a human, or a woman a property rather than a person,… Read more »
Susan George has debunked the theory of overpopulation and food shortages in her book A Fate Worse Than Debt (1998). The threshold of intellectual disability that needs to be crossed for one to become unable to write a book is unfortunately nowhere near as a low as it should be in an ideal world. In other words one can be a complete lunatic and still write books. The threshold of intellectual disability that prevents one from being able to read is even higher, meaning that the books in question can have strong influence on the very large population of braindead scientifically illiterate idiots that fills the world. Overpopulation is not defined with respect to food at a given moment. We have overpopulation if the environment cannot support the environmental footprint of the population indefinitely. The population can temporarily exceed the carrying capacity (this is how you get into overshoot) destroying… Read more »
It’s a serious, academic argument for the murder of new born, healthy, full term babies. Because they “do not have the same moral status as actual persons.” A newborn is indeed not an actual person — it has no self awareness. It is a serious academic argument for a reason. Also, the world is vastly overpopulated, which means that we need to move away from the category mistake of picking between “choice” and “life” when it comes to abortion. That does not exhaust the space of possible positions, because those are not opposites of each other. It is in fact a 2D space, i.e. we have: 1) anti-abortion, anti-choice 2) anti-abortion, pro-choice 3) pro-abortion, anti-choice 4) pro-abortion, pro-choice. 1) and 4) are presented as the major alternatives, sometimes you will see people espouse 2), i.e. they will say they are on principle opposed to abortion but will let women choose.… Read more »
Do you realise you spend nine the tenths of your comment advocating for the very pathological and eugenicist ideas you then, in your concluding para, attempt to pass of as “conspiracy-theories”?
If you can demonstrate that the world is not vastly overpopulated and that civilization is not headed to the same kind of post-overshoot crash that has put an end to most past civilizations, we can have a discussion.
If you can’t the only right you have is to shut up and listen to what the scientists are telling you.
However, it is extremely unlikely that you could do such a thing because the evidence is so overwhelming (and after a certain point we’re not even talking about evidence to the contrary, we’re talking about denial of the most fundamental laws of nature).
Nature neither has any morals, not it cares one iota about human feelings. That has to be kept in mind at all times. We ignore it at our peril.
1) You haven’t produced any evidence for you own claims, other than airy assertions about “science.”
2) Even if human population is out of control, most would argue the solution is not, and never could be the murder of innocent people.
3) We encourage open debate but arguments for the murder of children is actually an incitement to violence, so be careful.
1) Gish gallop on your end. I don’t have the time to write thousands of words just to educate ignorant people on the internet. That work has already been done by others in more formal settings, how is it my fault you haven’t bothered to read it? Also, in general I don’t need to demonstrate what is common scientific knowledge. Do you recheck the math behind general relativity every time you use the GPS in your car? I thought so. 2) Murder of innocent people is precisely what we are trying to avoid here. If we do not reduce our population, billions will perish prematurely, that is a 100% biophysical certainty. The question is whether we reduce our population in a humane organized way or we let nature do it, which will be a lot more unpleasant. Nuclear war is very much not out of the question either. Also, a… Read more »
1) You arbitrarily redefine certain people as being “not people”.
2) You claim a moral imperative for the murder of the non-people.
This is the Nazi playbook you are opening.
We repeat the question, is this view mainstream in your area of academia?
Follow up: – we note you have an email address at a mainstream US university. Are such neo-nazi ideas about the legitimacy of murdering those deemed to be “non-persons” mainstream in your area of academia?
This is a highly inappropriate thing to post — you are abusing your admin privileges in this case.
Absolutely not. We have not given out your email address. There is no way for anyone to identify or trace you. We just very much want to know if you are reflecting mainstream academic views when you advocate for the murder of newborn babies
I speak for myself. The facts on which the conclusions are based are common knowledge though. The question is how many are ready to follow the facts and logic to where they lead
1) How many of your academic colleagues argue that personhood is separable from humanity – not simply regarding the unborn but regarding living human beings?
2) How many of them support your advocacy of a mass-culling of non-persons for the good of the planet?
3) Can you define your concept of personhood?
4) At what age would you argue that a baby becomes a person?
5) How about mentally handicapped human beings, the senile or demented, the physically handicapped or those with genetic diseases or abnormalities – do you consider they have personhood?
6) How should those you deem to be non-people be disposed of?
You are making a category error once again by conflating the issue of population reduction with the question of what we do about people with disabilities. The latter are a fairly small number and as such have little influence over the overpopulation problem. Also, most severe “disability” problems are detectable in utero, either in the genome or in the phenotype of the fetus. Prenatal whole genome sequencing will be routine soon, allowing for quick abortions, and eliminating most of the problem. Yes, that is eugenics. No, eugenics is not and should not be a dirty word. The only reason it is a dirty word is that the side that won WWII had to ideologically justify its victory and eugenics became a victim of that imperative (the fact that it was almost as popular in the Anglo-Saxon world as in Nazi Germany was quickly swept under the rug). There is no… Read more »
Eight – count them – eight paras and you did not answer a single question put to you. Though you did answer several you were not asked, but which apparently were easier for you. Let’s try again: 1) How many of your academic colleagues argue that personhood is separable from humanity – not simply regarding the unborn but regarding living human beings? 2) How many of them support your advocacy of a mass-culling of non-persons for the good of the planet? 3) Can you define your concept of personhood? 4) At what age would you argue that a baby becomes a person? 5) How about mentally handicapped human beings, the senile or demented, the physically handicapped or those with genetic diseases or abnormalities – do you consider they have personhood? (you told us soon most physically imperfect people will be aborted, but you did not tell us what should be… Read more »
I haven’t answered your question for the simple reason that they are mostly nonsensical, irrelevant or not interesting to me. 1) and 2) — how exactly do you expect me to have that information? Clearly you have zero experience of being in research, you wouldn’t be asking that question otherwise. You think people carry A4 sheets with their ideological positions on every issue listed in bullet points stapled on the front of their shirts? Or that they talk about much else but research with each other? Well, you’re deeply mistaken. 3) I am not really interested in that question thus I don’t have a well formulated answer. In general, self-awareness is usually seen as the defining characteristic. 4) The argument does not derive from age, but from self-awareness. The mirror test would probably work well in practice. Human infants usually begin to pass it around 18 months of age, but… Read more »
3) I am not really interested in that question thus I don’t have a well formulated answer. In general, self-awareness is usually seen as the defining characteristic You’re advocating the killing of human beings based on their being “non-persons” – yet you haven’t even considered how non-personhood should be evaluated? 4) The argument does not derive from age, but from self-awareness. The mirror test would probably work well in practice. Human infants usually begin to pass it around 18 months of age, but obviously that varies, thus the test is much more objective than some age cutoff. So, are we to understand you would consider it permissible to kill any child under the age of 18-months (or whenever it passes the mirror test) should its parents or carers, or the state choose? 5) I didn’t answer that because it is a dishonest question — you are lumping all sorts of… Read more »
“Follow up: – we note you have an email address at a mainstream US university.” If our Heideggerian friend is really an academic at a mainstream American university, and advocating boldly Eugenicist policies, there’s only the slimmest chance in hell that he isn’t also a champion (closeted or not) of the widely-discredited The Bell Curve (by Richard Hernstein, Charles Murray and the ghost of Alfred Rosenberg), that mean-spirited jumble of false correlatives, unfalsifiable insinuations, fudged and downright invented statistics and thinly-veiled Goldilocks complex. All to say that a Racist worldview will not only very neatly undergird both a belief in “The Bell Curve” and “Overpopulation” Alarmism… but usually precedes both. Which is why “GM” doesn’t need sources to back up his statements… he feels them, deep down, in the marrow of his exalted Dasein. What’s truly amazing and convenient is that the people who get it in their heads that… Read more »
(erratum: “always TEND”)
Normally I wouldn’t bother replying to something so old, but this is so egregious that it mandates a response. It is generally a good advice to either know what you are talking about or shut the fuck up if you don’t. Clearly you don’t know what you’re talking about. Your typical academic is very very far from living the lifestyle you are describing because he/she is not being paid anywhere remotely enough to be living like that (especially in relative terms — a place like Stanford, for example, pays the highest salaries in academia, which are still completely insufficient relative to the cost of living in the area, and a number of universities have the same problem because of the expensive areas that have developed around them) and because the demands that surviving in academia places on you are such that having kids is often impossible; you simply don’t have… Read more »
“Finally, yes, some people are more valuable than others. It’s just an empirical fact of life. And yes, very few of those people live in Africa, that’s another empirical fact of life. ” Well that’s really all we needed to read, isn’t it? Humorously, you’ve only managed to deny (by implication) having 2.5 cars or a lawn, though you swerved right around the heart of my comment by saying nothing about that pseudo-scientific pamphlet (masquerading as a proper book) called “The Bell Curve”… I’ll assume that was a direct hit. As to whether you’re just a wretched TA in the math department or a tenured goose with a house in the country, you, without a doubt, consume in a week more of the earth’s resources than the “disposables” that you wouldn’t mind nuking consume in a month. So how is it not logical to save the Earth a little by… Read more »
Why do you have to force me to call you names such as “braindead moron” and the likes? The “Bell Curve” book (which I have not read so I cannot comment in details about, I have only heard about it) has nothing to do with my observation of Sub-Saharan Africa being of little value to humanity. That IQ and general intellectual level is the lowest in the world there is an empirical fact. That it is highest in certain areas of East Asia is also an empirical fact that has to always be pointed out before the usual accusation of racism is thrown around. There is little reason, however, to think that this is genetic — cultural and environmental factors are more than sufficient to explain it. Sub-Saharan Africa has the highest levels of malnutrition and of chronic parasitic disease, i.e. things that have absolutely devastating effect on the mental… Read more »
Last time you were here we tried to get you to define some of the “objective facts” you refer to as being scientific positions. You dodged and weaved an eventually departed. So, may we try again? 1) How can we measure “personhood” through self-awareness? Do you consider the mirror-test sufficiently robust and infallible as to be a measure of whether a human being lives or dies? 2) you say the humans in sub-Saharan Africa are not useful to “humanity”. How do you separate humans as a group from “humanity” as a group? 3) How, in fact, do you define “humanity’? 4) How do you define “benefit”? If 6.8 billion humans die but the remainder all get to got to MIT or Yale and do higher math, has “humanity” benefitted? If so, in what sense? If the planet could in fact sustain 8 billion people would their potentially happy lives be… Read more »
1) We’ve gone over this, no need to revisit it 2) You’re twisting my words, I said that it is an empirical fact that some people are more valuable than others and that scientists are more valuable to humanity than illiterate subsistence farmers. 3) “Humanity” == members of the species Homo sapiens 4) How do you define “benefit”? An activity that increases the species’ chances of survival. The reverse is easily definable too. From which it directly follows that, for example, doing climate science is a benefit to humanity, while driving a gas guzzler to and from the mall (in the case of the typical obese suburbanite in the US) is a net negative, as is destroying natural habitat to make more room for agriculture (in the case of the subsistence farmer somewhere in the Third world with his half a dozen kids to feed). This sort of thing: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/13/madagascar-mass-extinction-plants-kew-gardens… Read more »
1) We’ve gone over this, no need to revisit it We’ve “gone over it” only to the extent that you persistently refuse to answer the question. It’s not very rational or scientific to maintain a position you find impossible to clarify, develop or support with any form of data or even reasonable argument. 2) You don’t seem to understand the question. But never mind. 3) So, what you are saying is the members of species homo sapiens inhabiting areas of the world that have been ravaged by exploitation are of no benefit to the members of species homo sapiens that do NOT inhabit these regions? Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this just a very commonplace silly and selfish credo wrapped in pseudo-objective and pseudo-scientific language? “They don’t matter, because they are not us.” 4) The science of population and climate change are cited by many eugenicists such as… Read more »
Ha ha!
Listen, I’m not going to bother, this time around. I went after you, initially, because I thought you might be an academic of some (at least local) consequence and therefore a lot more sinister/dangerous than it turns out you are. You’re exactly like a seething 20-something from 4Chan. This is reassuring. Your views are merely a function of your powerlessness and sophistry and your deep wish to elicit a reaction. Aka: welcome to The Internetz.
“For example, one glaring lesson from that period is that genocide works — there are barely any Jews left in Germany today. BTW, just as there are barely any Native Americans left in the US.”
Chuckle. Thanks for that, Captain Obvious. I’ll be sure to mention these surprising examples the next time I get in a debate with someone who insists that genocide (like waterboarding?) “doesn’t work”.
See ya…!
@GM: I looked at your link to Madagascar and what I can see is a familiar model: local wealth being extracted for minimal return to the locals – while comprador businessmen make intermediate profits as the resources are exported into the global economy; to be monetised into futures and other derivatives; at each stage the potential wealth is being multiplied; at each stage someone takes a cut – while the locals are driven deeper into poverty. The island is being carved up on an exploitative and unsustainable model by international industrial developers and foreign investors (including USAid – the CIA benevolent fund) – for services such as meat and shellfish processing, soap production, auto production; ‘Export Processing Zones’ are being set up for textiles, glassware, etc.; oil reserves are being opened in the West; Rio Tinto are extracting gems and rare earth minerals (and polluting the waterways); deforestation (legal and… Read more »
Dear GM: from a scientific illiterate to a spiritual illiterate; I’ve got to say – I can’t believe you have spent all those hours diagnosing the symptoms of the world crisis – only to completely misappropriate the cause. If you were a doctor, the patient would die, not despite of your misdiagnosis, but because of it. The problem is not the largest demographic (which I will label the ‘trans-national global poor’); but the smallest demographic – the very elite of the trans-national global rich. That is where the commodified, monetised and multiplied global resources end up. That is the cause of the depletion. That is why there is not enough to go round. Human greed, pure and simple – it runs throughout our societies – but gets amplified at the top. Not the bottom. What you are proposing is nothing more the a playground for the super rich, with a… Read more »
The empirical facts are against your explanation.
10,000 years ago when humans moved to North America there was no capitalism, global elite or anything of the sort. The result? Mass extinction.
Same thing 50,000 years ago in Australia
Same thing 1500 years ago in Madagascar
Same thing in New Zealand 1000 years ago.
Look at the link about Madagascar today I posted above. Look at what happened in Haiti (you can argue that Haiti is poor because of colonialism, and you would be correct, but colonialism is not the reason why it is deforested, overpopulation is).
Etc. etc. etc.
Poor people are just as good at wrecking their environment as rich people are.
Because the fundamental drivers of the environmental catastrophe go much deeper than social stratification by wealth and are common to all people, rich and poor.
[[ f you drop a nuclear bomb on top of Kinshasa, you will kill 10 million people and the world will not lose anything of value, if you do the same with Cambridge, Princeton or Palo Alto, the world will lose a lot. ]]
Do we have to tolerate this kind of racist gobshite??? Fuck you and your Princeton pals, ASSHOLE.
Substitute Kinshasa with Oklahoma City, the statement still largely applies. Am I still a racist?
GM, You ask Seraskier, “Am I still a racist?” You might just as well have asked the other equally obvious question, eh? Oh, don’t ask. I mean, if you have to ask, eh? You write: “. . . it is an empirical fact that some people are more valuable than others and that scientists are more valuable to humanity than illiterate subsistence farmers.” Question: how does one “scientifically” measure the “value” of a person or persons? Where in nature is this “scientific” ratio to be found or measured? From where do we extrapolate it? Take your time. Don’t rush the answer. You don’t want to misspeak yourself or have have us twist your words. It’s just that the last time you were here, you seemed rather adamant about the inherent meaninglessness of human life in general cosmic terms. So I’m just wondering how you go about reconciling the “objective scientific… Read more »
Racist and classist, sure… but not nearly as dangerous as I initially assumed; it’s pretty clear, by now, that you’re not in any position of power or influence at some university. Anyone who enjoys this kind of time-wasting “debate” can have it on hundreds of threads at 4Chan, all day long, every day of the week.
Boring.
[[ it’s pretty clear, by now, that you’re not in any position of power or influence at some university. ]]
Cleaning the bathrooms is a position of power.
GM is attached to a US university
@Seraskier
“Cleaning the bathrooms is a position of power.”
If that were true, the Proletariat would be running an Empire of their own and 4Chan would already have launched World War 4.
“GM is attached to a US university”
As are tens of thousands of low level functionaries. Ho hum.
You are a racist for deliberately choosing and comparing a city in an impoverished country that has long been exploited by Europeans, beginning with the Belgians back in the 1800s, and Americans as well, never allowed to govern itself with politicians of its own choosing (I’m thinking of Patrice Lumumba) with cities in countries that have robbed other peoples (including the Congolese) of their lands and resources and deliberately left these peoples destitute, malnourished and unable to better themselves.
Of course you’d never compare Flint or Detroit in the US or Sarnia in Canada with Kinshasa, would you?
@GM: I replied to you about Madagascar: unfortunately it went in above my original comment. I do hope you see it, as I detail – it has less to do with overpopulation – more to do with exploitation.
Well, yes, of course, it can never be about overpopulation…
But I am curious what you will come up with next, so let’s point that out again: what was it about when the original megafauna of Madagascar was exterminated many centuries before Europeans even knew about the island?
Your arguments from history are spurious. In 50,000 bce were we even behaviorally modern? Allegedly, we are at the top of our game now – why do indigenous people damage the environment that sustains them – ignorance? From the comments BTL on the Madagascar article: “The situation is a bit more complex, in that most land is held under customary law. This is not recognized by the government, and people find it impossible to defend their territory against incomers, particularly if they are the same ethnic group.” The farmers “had maintained a complex regime of land management with most land set aside for future generations, some for present use, and some for the ancestors (burial areas). However, all around them ‘their’ forest was being cut down by townies” [Cathy Rozel.] Clearly the situation is a bit more complex the lingering pre-Stone-Age mentality of indigenous folk trying to make themselves extinct.… Read more »
@GM: I won’t have time later, so I’m answering in anticipation now. There are flaws exposed when you apply your thesis empirically to a real life scenario (Madagascar.) With half an hours internet research I have shown that there are other drivers to the current species extinctions – factors you don’t seem to have accounted for. A couple of other points I’d like to draw to your attention to. I’m prepared to admit that at 2.8% pa; overpopulation IS a factor – but what is driving it? The logical fallacy in your thesis is that if the population is truly at subsistence level – the local population is governed by the carrying capacity of the land. There is no way to sustain a population growth of 2.8% – most of the women would be infertile on such a subsistence diet. The external factor is food aid. I haven’t got time… Read more »
@GM: if you have any time left after refuting me – research Rio Tinto – they’re well known eco-terrorists.
“If you can demonstrate that the world is not vastly overpopulated and that civilization is not headed to the same kind of post-overshoot crash that has put an end to most past civilizations, we can have a discussion.”
What evidence do you have that the world “is” vastly overpopulated?
I hear you making the assertion, but I don’t hear you making the case. I wonder if you could oblige.
I mean you are advocating something along the line of “pro-abortion, anti-choice,” aren’t you?
So the situation must dire. How do you know this? What are your facts? How have these facts been established? By whom?
As I mentioned above, do you require a complete explanation of general relativity every time you use GPS? No , you don’t. Do you ask for a comprehensive introduction to quantum mechanics every time you use a semiconductor-based device? Of aerodynamics every time you are about to board a plane? Etc. No, you don’t, you just trust the science and you use it. Now why is it that when it comes to things less pleasant for you you all of a sudden distrust the scientists? Be consistent. At some point things become so well established that the burden of proof is no longer on the affirmative position. The problem here is that you need to have read hundreds of thousands of pages of literature to fully understand the global sustainability crisis. Do you seriously expect me to reproduce all of that here? Whatever I can reasonably say in the available… Read more »
“As I mentioned above, do you require a complete explanation of general relativity every time you use GPS? No , you don’t. Do you ask for a comprehensive introduction to quantum mechanics every time you use a semiconductor-based device? Of aerodynamics every time you are about to board a plane? Etc. No, you don’t, you just trust the science and you use it.” Right. Because everytime I use a GPS or turn on my air-conditioner or board a plane, a new-born must die. Because “science.” So shut up, and hand over your newborn, right? Got it. “At some point things become so well established that the burden of proof is no longer on the affirmative position.” Dear Sir, dear Madame, we must murder your child. Surely you understand. The world is overrun with humans, and enough is enough. If you don’t know that this is the case, if you’ve never… Read more »
Why do I have to explain the faultiness of the “It hasn’t happened yet, therefore it never will” logic? A junkie has been on heroin for 6 months, he hasn’t died of it yet, therefore he never will. This is exactly what you are arguing. Yes, in the long run Paul Ehrlich did more damage than good with his overdramatic statements at the time. That is correct. But it in no way invalidates the message. BTW, yes, we have turned over every piece of rock. Oil forms under very special circumstances, which are very well understood, You need sediment basins or passive continental margins, you won’t find it in the middle of a stable craton that has been above sea level for hundred of millions of years. And the world has been thoroughly explored, aside from the polar regions (but those will not yield more than a few years of… Read more »
You don’t have to write a treatise, just link to some sources.
As an academic you really should be familiar with the requirement to source and support your claims. You have repeatedly sneered at posters for failing to produce data, yet refuse to produce any of your own.
You also failed to answer any of the questions put to you about your advocacy for the killing of infants under the age of 18 months.
It seems you expected to be denounced but not questioned and have not come prepared to support your contentions with even basic amounts of research.
Let me make sure I understand: according to you I have to quote the original Pythagoras’ publication when I want to use the fact that a^2 + b^2 = c^2?
Got it.
No you idiot – you have to show evidence for the real word application you are claiming.
If you were my student you’d have to whiteboard that fifty times.
“You don’t have to write a treatise, just link to some sources,” is in no sense equivalent to saying one has “to quote the original Pythagoras’ publication when [one wants] to use the fact that a^2 + b^2 = c^2″… so you’re either an order of magnitude dimmer than you’d like to think you are… or engaging in spurious argumentation for the sheer pleasure of saying evil things for the facade of power you seem to think such pronouncements lend you. No one here is fooled into thinking you’re A) learned B) a superman of some sort C) not merely a creep.
“until we get down to 100 million or so globally”
You do realize that by eliminating yourself, before asking others to die, you’d prove that you aren’t merely another unremarkable psychopath with delusions of grandeur wedded to an utter inability to face the implications of your own hypocritical bloodlust? Sure, your death would merely be one of the (in your mind) 7 billion + required, but, again, you’d earn a measure of respect for the action (versus how you’re currently viewed, both by many readers here and the few humans in your actual life) and, in any case: baby steps, as they say. And losing one corrupted super-creep is something like gaining a dozen beautiful newborns, in my calculus…
Dear Norman, Thanks for trying to tell GM that climate change, the neoliberal capitalist system and environmental destruction caused by mining and other activities for profit really do have no connection with overpopulation. The problems we currently have in the world with climate change, environmental pollution and over-exploitation, and debt turn out to be the result of choices made in the context of an overarching culture and its values, systems and networks that privilege the few and the choices they make at the expense of others. Overpopulation becomes a convenient excuse to explain the failures of neoliberal capitalism and the resort to deliberate mass murder under the guise of necessary war to remove governments designated as “non-democratic” or “authoritarian” or to remove people whose lands are coveted for their mineral wealth or strategic importance. Perhaps that’s why our new visitor omits to put up any links to sources or evidence… Read more »
“Overpopulation becomes a convenient excuse to explain the failures of neoliberal capitalism….”
In one sense. But one can’t help noticing that the personality type most often driven to rule vast fortunes or large populations (or to admire those who do) are Caligulan, at core. Many of them would like to see bloodletting on a megadeath scale. The inability to Love (a malfunction on a genetic level, perhaps) is expressed as a (sexual) Love of Death/Murder… a passion that requires, in the minds of those afflicted, no excuse or alibi. Neoliberal capitalism is no “failure” in their minds: the misery it inflicts is a bonus.
You are spot on in your diagnosis of the ‘Caligulan’ mind – if it came to it they’d go full ‘Samson Option’ and nuke the planet rather than let society progress beyond their control. I wonder, have you read Ernest Becker – “The Denial of Death”; the follow on work of Terror Management Theory; or watched “The Flight From Death” – which form a nascent theory into how this mind develops? If we can’t rule the world, at least we can have a meaningful life in the debris and destitution! 🙂
BigB!
I think they’re going to go for neutron bombs instead…! To protect the real estate… laugh… weep… laugh…
Wilhelm Reich has a lot to say about it, too, along with Erich Fromme
Off-Guardian does strive for scientific accuracy but for that to be achievable, it has to be a platform for open discussion of theories and positions, most of which might seem crackpot and outlandish to you.
Yet here you are saying that the world is vastly overpopulated with no evidence that suggests that biophysical systems are failing and not the economic and distribution systems that we have, and you are advocating as well some form of “mass extermination” without saying how and where that takes place (presumably in some Third World hellhole populated by coloured people).
We can do without your definition of “scientific accuracy” – go back and talk to Kevin MacDonald over at the Occidental Observer or Stormfront.org.
Just curious: Were doctors Joseph Goebbels or Alfred Rosenberg (with their diplomas) educated enough?
“A newborn is indeed not an actual person — it has no self awareness. ”
I’d love to see the 25th century science you have access to to support this combination of inhuman pronouncement and wild guess.
Reblogged this on Hwaairfan's Blog.
Hmn …step back … let us dare to imagine a world where a certain breed of humans; those with the excess power that they are addicted to abuse (war mongering politicians/war profiteers and wall street bankers, par example), had been ‘gotten rid of’ as easily and efficiently as say … well, half a million kids (aged 5 and under) sanctioned to death, under blair and bush. To quote madeline albright, this deliberate act (of mass murder) was ” a price worth paying “. If we lack qualms regarding innocent children slaughtered on mass;well, let us not get all sentimental in regard to applying that genocide quota instead to the polluting scum perched at the ‘pinnacle of the stinking dung heap’ … Let us then observe how much greater such a human sacrifice would benefit the majority on the planet … ” a price infinitely more worth paying” . Just a… Read more »
Remember, remember …
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0gC4UER6NzE/T6J-70WS2YI/AAAAAAAAABE/foFOCWtngvA/s1600/EnthanasiePropaganda.jpg
let’s not forget where the nazis got it from. the usa. and partly the british empire.