138

They say there’s no “magic money tree”…well there is! But…

Bryan Gocke

Image source: /agamerica.com

In Britain, if it wasn’t for BREXIT we would be discussing (among other things) Labour’s proposed economic policies, including an expansion of public sector spending. There would be a storm of media led disparagement about plans to stimulate the economy through borrowing and increased taxation and concerns raised about not paying down the national debt. As Theresa May said whilst campaigning for the last general election “There is no magic money tree.”

I find it particularly disheartening that many well informed, left leaning people buy this criticism, worrying whether the country can afford improved public services and whether this will make Labour unelectable. The stock response of the Left to this would normally go along the lines of:

  • The Tories are in disarray and deeply split over BREXIT and thus just might be even more unelectable than a slightly radical Labour Party.
  • Britain is a rich country; surely it can afford better public services than it currently has?
  • Labour’s proposals are, in truth, underwhelming! They represent such a modest step in a process required to reverse a decade of austerity and cuts.
  • Revenue from taxation in Britain has become wholly inadequate to the task of ensuring a fair, equitable society. Increased progressive taxation would begin to re-establish a common, shared responsibility for all citizens and fund the necessary increase in public spending.
  • The current focus on ensuring a balanced national budget and paying down the National Debt is misplaced and thwarts economic regeneration and development. Britain, with its well established capital markets, has had no trouble borrowing funds to finance the public sector deficit since the financial crisis of 2008 [1] and thus could fund public sector programmes in this way in the future. At current, low, levels of interest, it would be foolish not to do so! Moreover, provided that interest and repayments are in Sterling (hence avoiding the risk of exchange rate fluctuations), borrowing essentially represents a transfer of funds from savers to the Government – the country as a whole is neither richer nor poorer. A large proportion of the national debt is money that we owe to ourselves. However, the payment of interest does represent a transfer of funds from taxpayers to savers; individuals and commercial organisations profit from the need for the Government to borrow.
  • An economic stimulus focussed on improving public services could be used to re-establish secure, full time jobs and help to reverse the current trend towards precarious short term zero hours contracts[2]. The wages would almost entirely be spent by the workers (as opposed to being hoarded / used for speculation by richer people) and thus would serve to stimulate the economy further through the multiplier effect. Spending wages will stimulate other parts of the economy; you get a bigger bang for your buck as well as progress towards a better society!

It was with considerable interest therefore that I read a recent article by Jim Kavanagh on Modern Monetary Theory [3], which suggested that the Left needs to update and refine the way it promotes the credibility of a an economic stimulus approach that focusses on investing in public services.

Jim provides an excellent summary of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) and I will attempt a rather briefer one here in order to provide the context for a discussion about the chances for implementation in Britain and its possible consequences.

Current state financial structures in capitalist countries include a central bank, which sits uneasily between the government and commercial banks. It is commercial banks which digitally create the vast majority of the money supply, loosely regulated by central banks, through loans to customers and of course to the government. As pointed out above, this is an income generating process for those with capital and is portrayed by governments, banks and much of the mainstream media as a natural state of affairs. Whilst this is indeed central to the development of capitalism as we know it, it doesn’t need to be this way – governments, if they have a sovereign currency that is not linked to precious metals etc, could create money themselves in order to pay for increased public expenditure without incurring the interest costs that borrowing would incur.

If governments can create money then it follows that what they spend doesn’t have to be constrained by revenue from taxation. MMT posits that taxing and spending are separate processes that shouldn’t be linked in this deterministic way and argues that central banks understand this only too well. Whilst democratic institutions wrangle over how much to raise or lower taxes in order to ensure a balanced budget, central banks adjust interest rates and bank regulation (in order to control the money supply) on their judgement as to how close to capacity a country’s economy is. The same type of judgement could be used to ensure that any economic stimulus based on government created money is tailored to producing a maximal utilisation of labour, capital and raw materials to meet democratically sanctioned policy objectives.

Now I can hear the clamour – ‘What no need for taxes? – this really is a magical money tree!’ and, more ominously – ‘What about the threat of inflation as the economy moves beyond maximum capacity?’

This is the really neat thing about MMT – progressive taxation is used not to fund public expenditure but to constrain demand and thus manage inflationary pressures. This has the added bonus for the Left as it limits the income of wealthy people – it actively reduces inequality.

It challenges that received wisdom on the Left that in order to run a decent state apparatus with good inclusive services you have to either i) borrow and/or ii) increase taxes. Over the last 50 years Neo Liberalism has learnt how to deal with this approach. It’s no longer working for the Left, for social democratic parties, or for the vast majority of people.

MMT correctly identifies the smoke and mirrors of modern money, not fixed to a scarce precious metal but the digital creation of private banks. Sometimes they lend too much (and to the wrong people) then it goes badly for a bit and then, when they’ve taken advantage of the public sector lifeboat, they don’t lend enough – or at least not to the right people or businesses. If the state took direct control of the money supply through its central bank[4], it could, guided by the democratic process, develop better services, have full (and securer) employment as a legitimate goal and move gradually to a more equal society.

I am attracted to the concept – it seems a much better way of doing things: create money to fully utilise our resources (labour + capital + natural resources) to produce a more sustainable, supportive and enabling society and then use taxation of the rich! to choke back demand, manage inflation and maintain a much, much more equitable distribution of wealth and income. It’s a better model of capitalism than we have at the moment, why wouldn’t you like it?

But can it work?[5]

On the face of it the current world economic order is less than conducive to a MMT approach:

  • Globalisation has made it increasingly difficult for elected governments to have meaningful effect on their own economies.
  • Western capitalism is struggling to find, develop and exploit new markets, and is in the process of commoditising many personal, individual behaviours and actions. It is prepared to fund and on occasion participate in wars to defend or create markets. Automation and artificial intelligence are driving profit margins down as there are fewer workers required in production and thus less to exploit. Capitalists feel they need even greater efficiencies (aka increased exploitation) – not a state wanting to tax them much, much more and look after people better. Where’s all that going to lead eh?
  • Finance capital has grown significantly as a proportion of overall capital – always a sign that the current capitalist iteration is running out of steam – and there is no obvious successor at the moment. The current new technology is information technology – electronic communication and co-ordination – but it doesn’t make that much money and it doesn’t employ that many people. You don’t get the stimulus of huge engineering plants, factories, with their paid employees etc – the sort of advances that have bailed capitalism in the past (Paul Mason)[6]. It‘s easier today to make a profit by lending to someone who can’t afford to pay it back than investing in a factory to employ them to make something useful (and contribute, through their wages to the wider economy).

OK, given this not very encouraging context, how would a left of centre Labour Party in Britain fare trying to implement a MMT approach? There are likely to be a number of specific economic consequences:

  • Inflation is difficult to control in an overheating economy – currently a distant memory in Britain. The risk of hyperinflation is real and, as central banks know, it is difficult to judge when an economy is reaching full capacity and to determine the scale of measures required to manage this.
  • Capital will consider moving abroad to less regulated, less taxed countries. Their taxes will be lost (although that might not add up to much of a loss given current levels of tax avoidance) and some jobs will go too, although many will have been created in the public sector.
  • ‘Confidence may be lost’ in the state of the economy (affecting inward and domestic investment).
  • The value of Sterling would probably begin to fall in the currency markets and is likely to result in a downward trend as it is increasingly (and more desperately) traded for other currencies in an attempt to ‘get out’ before the spiral really begins and significant losses are accrued. Speculators will exacerbate this process, selling sterling with the intention of buying it back later, at a much lower value and thus realising a profit from the country’s misfortune.
  • The cost of imports will rise and so will the cost of living (which will impact disproportionately on poorer people).

The development of this economic scenario will have political consequences:

  • The centre (well maybe a little bit radical) left party presiding over this will be facing a run on Sterling. They are not going to have time to implement their positive programme of job creation and services and are going to have to buy sterling back at a lower value to try and stabilise the market.
  • I know that investors who sell Sterling are only doing so out of rational (self) interest but it is difficult not to be irritated with them! Whilst the government will be ‘personning the pumps’, trying the ‘steady as she goes’ approach, the lot who have withdrawn their engagement with the economy will be telling everyone who will listen that the Government was to blame – ‘Incompetent management of the economy’, ‘inevitable with a high spending left of centre administration,’ ‘Undermining us all, the children, the old ……. There is no magic money tree!’
  • A Sterling crisis may provoke a general election where the centre right (and a bit) are returned to power … to unpick the reforms based on MMT. Austerity will be the inevitable prescription. Public confidence in a left of centre approach will be eroded and may result in a lengthy period of government by the centre right.
  • There may not be a general election, the government may feel it has no choice to push the MMT reforms further, faster than planned – to buy their way out on the basis of their democratic mandate. This, I would envisage, will require a move further to the left and will be highly dependent on maintaining popular support in the country.
  • Should a centre left government be successful in establishing a MMT approach to the management of the economy and inequality begin to be seriously tackled, those who own most of the stuff will have to decide whether it is better to go along with it in order to maintain relative privilege or to challenge it head on through right wing populism (and worse).
  • In a global economy Britain will find itself isolated, pressurised and bullied by powerful capitalist countries and it will need to form alliances and trading agreements with other, non-aligned ones, although it is difficult to see who these would be.

So, implementation of a MMT approach in current circumstances is likely to be very hard going indeed. I asked above ‘why wouldn’t you like it?’ and the obvious response to this is that a small group of people (the 1% who own such a disproportionately large share of the world’s wealth and income [7) will not like it at all and though small in number they wield disproportionate power through governments, institutions, business and of course the media. They are unlikely to acquiesce without a fight to the loss of privilege and wealth that would result, unless they feel that it is their only option.

It is tempting to sigh and say ‘Of course MMT won’t work – it’s not in the interests of the 1% and they will act accordingly’ …. but hey! it is self-evident that defeatism will not aid the development of more progressive political and economic policies.

Jim rightly highlights the need for political will and for the overwhelming support of the population for the implementation of MMT and, as with any attempt to build a popular base for more progressive policies, this is a particular challenge. Having listened on a number of occasions to shadow chancellor John McDonald being interviewed by John Humphreys on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme about current Labour proposals, I can already hear the disparaging incredulity ‘What … you are proposing to spend vast amounts of money without even attempting to raise the revenue to cover the ensuing deficit !!!!!’ Mainstream media will quickly be on the hunt with the usual tales of Labour incompetence, the danger to the economy .. if not the fabric of society itself!

The challenges are significant – but they always have been for progressive politics and at times, in certain circumstances, progress has been made, inequality reduced and more of the 99% have been empowered. MMT provides a fresh way of looking at how capitalist economics works, it asks different questions and exposes different contradictions and unfairnesses. Can it provide opportunities for the Left now?

  • There is an increasing awareness in mainstream economics (and even mainstream media) that the current carry-on is not sustainable – that rising inequality is a threat to the current order and that ‘trickle down’ theories of income and wealth are becoming discredited. These insights can inform and underpin a more confident Left.
  • The result of the last general election in Britain suggests that mainstream media may have a declining influence on public opinion as many, particularly younger people, access social media and alternative sites for news and opinion. Sites like The Canary offer an alternative, more progressive perspective.
  • There are signs that scraps may be offered to try and head off at the pass any revolt being considered by those who have lost most through globalisation and those who will lose through increasing automation and the introduction of artificial intelligence. A universal wage would not only offer a (low) safety net for the population at large but also maintain some semblance of demand for goods and services outside of the elite and their managers. As unemployment rises this may detach large sections of the middle class from the 1% and support the Left in arguing and agitating for the highest level of universal wage possible.
  • Despite current received political and economic wisdom there are examples where money has indeed been created to meet a perceived need eg the QE initiatives post the 2008 crisis (currently amounting to around £435 bn in Britain). The Left can argue that such an approach could and should be used for the benefit of the majority rather than acting as an asset protection scheme for the upper and, it has to be said, middle classes (the top 10%).
  • As one would expect, it seems that there are tensions and conflicts within an elite that has become more individualised and less able to act in concert as a class (Aeron Davis)[8]. Although this has potential for exploitation by the Left it also highlights that the elite may be unable to collectively sanction the sort of social democratic redistribution of income and wealth that it was able to do in the past in the West (e.g. the post-world war 2 ‘consensus’).

It seems that MMT has a logic and a coherent rationale that could be made to work, but once you consider the issue of power : who has it, how it is maintained, and how it is used, the difficulties of implementation can seem insurmountable. Nevertheless, the current capitalist iteration in the west is struggling to maintain profit levels for the 1% and to keep the other 99% sufficiently on board to maintain social stability. This provides an opportunity for the Left to promote an alternative way forward, but (as ever) to be successful it has, at a minimum, to gain the support of a significant majority of the 99% and has to engage with the 1%; either to persuade it that ground has to be given, or to force it to accept change (and all that goes with that).

So there is a Magic Money Tree and (helpfully) it has the same initials as the economic theory that underpins it; Modern Monetary Theory! It is an approach that could help to deliver a more equitable, supportive and inclusive capitalist society…but…like all progressive politics, its implementation would be dependent on tackling the power and privilege of the minority who benefit so much from the current state of affairs.

Perhaps the more modest potential of MMT is to reveal a key set of processes that are central to the current economic system and to help promote an alternative; as Jim says ‘It raises the curtain’. Can the Left use this to debunk a range of self-serving myths pedalled by the elite, further discredit what is becoming an increasingly dysfunctional capitalism and begin to suggest a more equitable and workable alternative?

Bryan Gocke is a retired public sector worker in England.

NOTES:

  • [1] UK Government debt rose from around 49% of GDP in 2007 to about 85% currently. There was never a concern in the capital or foreign exchange markets about raising these large sums of money.
  • [2] Economic stimuli work best where there is under capacity in an economy. Mainstream economic advice would hold that such a stimulus is likely to result currently in inflation due to current low levels of unemployment and poor productivity in Britain.
  • [3] Jim Kavanagh – ‘Behind the Money Curtain: A Left Take on Taxes, Spending, and Modern Monetary Theory’ Counterpunch (January 2018)
  • [4] Public ownership of the larger Banks could be a component of this approach; which would obviate the need for the Government to direct (and micro manage) all investment decisions towards its policy goals. Public ownership of some (failing) Banks did take place following the 2008 crisis, so it is a credible approach, but no attempt was made to give them different lending objectives that might, for example, have focused on improving productivity.
  • [5] I am indebted to my friend Peter Lawne for providing me with much contextual information and analysis and helping me to think through the implications of MMT in a British context. Thank you Peter!
  • [6] Paul Mason – ‘Post Capitalism’ (2015)
  • [7] Thomas Piketty – ‘Capital in the Twenty First Century’ (2014). Evidence is provided that in Britain: the top 1% of people receive around 15% of all income and own around 30% of all wealth and that the top 10% receive around 35% of all income and own around 70% of all wealth.
  • [8] Aeron Davis – ‘Is the establishment finally finished?’ – The Guardian (27.02.18.)

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jag37777
jag37777
Jul 31, 2018 8:49 PM

From Ellis Winningham

Here’s what – If everyone in the UK, the US, and Australia (to name just a few places), could stop viewing the world as a place where workers, business and the government all compete for scarce, precious commodities called dollars and pounds, that would be great.

The dollar and the pound are not commodities, they are not something found underground, they are not physical objects, nor are they electronic.

The dollar and the pound are ideas; they are IOUs represented by a name and a number, and we keep track of them by putting them on paper, or typing them on spreadsheets.

Thanks,

The Management

Toby
Toby
Jul 23, 2018 1:11 PM

@MMT advocates: How can an infinity of money be a useful addition to economics? In what real world situation would it be possible? How is it relevant even as some asserted potential? As an impossible number, I can see no way this concept is practically useful. For me it is a poetic/metaphorical device I see as somewhat helpful to demote or downplay money from its current mythos as Unquestionable Power. We need, in my view, to recognize the malleability of money systems as man-made tools, and pointing out money’s virtual, ammendable nature can help the curious to begin to rethink money. Beyond that, infinity in economics quickly becomes problematic, as in other disciplines. An infinite amount of money can mean, for instance, that all market participants have an infinite amount of money. An obvious absurdity. And what would a sovereign government actually do with an inifinity of money? Make all… Read more »

mog
mog
Jul 23, 2018 4:25 PM
Reply to  Toby

excellently put.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 23, 2018 8:39 PM
Reply to  Toby

Neither of you have delved into MMT. You’ve both completely missed the basics.

pigswiggle
pigswiggle
Jul 24, 2018 12:30 AM
Reply to  Toby

“How can an infinity of money be a useful addition to economics? In what real world situation would it be possible? How is it relevant even as some asserted potential?” Put simply, an infinity of money is a useful addition to economics because it demonstrates that the government is never constrained by financing. If you listen closely (or even not closely), you will constantly hear politicians repeatedly tell you that the government cannot “afford” to do X and repeatedly explain how it is not possible to “pay” for Y, or repeatedly explain that we cannot do something because it will increase the government’s “debt” too much and burden future generations (think of the children!). Or repeatedly explain that the government needs to “tighten its belt” and “save” money for the future. These are ridiculous, nonsensical lies. When we understand the real capacity of the currency-issuing government, we can move beyond… Read more »

Toby
Toby
Jul 24, 2018 12:32 PM
Reply to  pigswiggle

Thank you for your considered and helpful response, pigswiggle. The circular in and out of currency, both via gov spending / taxes, and debt repayment / credit creation, is nothing new of course. It has been with us since before MMT as an idea and as practice, even in Roman and medieval currencies. And even gold has this ‘infinite’ aspect in its mythos: always shiny and apparently unchanging, retrieved by the king/sovereign as taxes/conquest and then recirculated back / spent into the economy. However, in and of itself, this circularity does not fully cover what we mean by “afford”, nor what quantities of currency ought to be circulating through an economy relative to the economic activity in that economy, nor does it address what we mean by economic activity. One commenter on this thread pointed out that much of MMT’s argument is not new; this would be one of those… Read more »

pigswiggle
pigswiggle
Jul 24, 2018 3:19 PM
Reply to  Toby

I agree with you that MMT does not address the things you want to address, but it’s not intended to. Those are political questions, not economic ones. What MMT does is allow us to bring those questions to the fore and to talk about them, by showing that resources and priorities are the real questions we should be discussing.

It’s worth pointing out that “jobs” and “growth” are not necessarily destructive. Jobs can be economically destructive or constructive. Growth is just a measure of exchanges, which can again be either destructive or constructive. With a job guarantee, it is the government deciding what work gets accomplished, not corporations trying to maximize profits. The jobs can be anything at all, and as designed by MMTers are determined locally.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 24, 2018 8:22 PM
Reply to  pigswiggle

You’re mote patient than I can be these days. All the standard buts, ifs and what abouts from the fake progressives wear me down.

Toby
Toby
Jul 25, 2018 7:53 AM
Reply to  pigswiggle

Elsewhere in this thread, I mentioned Geoffrey Ingham, an economist/sociologist I admire as he seeks to redress the split between politics/sociology and economics that has bedevilled all three domains since the split was established. In that vein, an interesting article thoroughly debunking money as “neutral veil” (by either Otto Steiger or Gunnar Heinsohn, or both, I forget) – a concept that is a direct manifestation of this split – makes for interesting reading and was written from roughly the same critical angle as Ingham’s The Nature of Money. In other words, there is plenty of excellent material out there on this important, though sadly controversial issue. So while I understand the cool attraction of keeping the subject matter of economics as ‘impartial’ as possible, I believe this to be a fool’s errand, and most likely a cynical one. Indeed, MMT promotes growth and a jobs guarantee, both of which are… Read more »

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 22, 2018 5:15 AM

“Money has to be pegged to a valorisable goal”

No it doesn’t.

That’s just your inability to accept the reality that money is a virtual concept scoring credits and debts. It is ceated out of nothing and returns to nothing.

0 is your friend when thinking about money.

Money is like the points on a scoreboard.

BigB
BigB
Jul 23, 2018 9:36 AM
Reply to  jag37777

In its journey from 0 to 0, virtual money destroys Nature – human and environmental – for 0 marginal benefit …but the costs are real. That is what we have tried to point out. It is not an abstract journey: human economy and ecology are negatively and destructively paired. Look at the totality from a systems thinking POV. You are isolating economy in a virtual bubble, as an abstract nested sub-system that does not impact the whole. This is classic Cartesian misrecognition of holism: you cannot isolate a sub-system and say it is infinite and not interacting with the rest of the system. The meta-system – Nature – is biophysically constrained and its regenerative capacity severely compromised by our economic destruction …for 0 marginal benefit to us: but with real life destroying costs. The smart thinking would be to design a system that economically benefits us, whilst paying its dues… Read more »

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 23, 2018 8:41 PM
Reply to  BigB

You just can’t let go of your conditioning.

John G
John G
Jul 21, 2018 9:08 PM

Mog

” We recognise the reality that money is infinite. You do not recognise the reality that resources and energy are finite. Work from there.”

On the contrary. I recognise both. MMT is acutely aware of real constraints. You’d know that if you had the cortesy and the intellectual curiosity to research the subject you are so keen to criticise.

Strawman arguments and assumptions are not conducive to reasoned debate.

Rhamphotyphlops
Rhamphotyphlops
Jul 22, 2018 11:52 PM
Reply to  John G

John G and jag37777, you might have more luck persuading people if you did not appear to be insufferable twats in your responses. Your responses may be correct within your narrow blinkered MMT view, but MMT alone will not fix all of the problems with the current economic system and people are quite rightly looking at a broader perspective in the comments.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 23, 2018 8:42 PM

Another strawman. How sad.

mog
mog
Jul 23, 2018 10:13 AM
Reply to  John G

I wrote those comments as someone who actually facilitated public lectures which sought to explain MMT to the public. I went to see Wray in person and have read enough Bill Mitchell blog pages to know that the same conventional endorsement of economic growth is present in the MMT movement, the Positive Money movement, as well as promised by other monetary solutions (public banking, helicopter money, debt jubilees etc.).

My point is that these enticing promises do not, on the whole, address the fundamental issues we face : a growing population and dwindling resources amidst a pollution crisis.

I am not against MMT, it’s just something of a false promise. A job guarantee funded by government borrowing could help some, if engaged wisely. But only so far. I mean what are people going to actually do ? Grow beans ?

BigB
BigB
Jul 23, 2018 12:21 PM
Reply to  mog

On the current trajectory: after the crash of the Cartesian lifeworld of carbon capitalism. …that is exactly what will be left to do: grow beans …only some farmers will be more equal than other farmers …and those who were once the lords of carbon and money will still be the feudal overlords! 😉

mog
mog
Jul 23, 2018 2:52 PM
Reply to  BigB

I grow beans.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 23, 2018 8:49 PM
Reply to  mog

Better to cull the human population in your opinion I suppose.
Nothing you mention has anything to do with MMT.
A job guarantee could give people jobs doing the things that aren’t being done now. There’s plenty of that around.

BigB
BigB
Jul 20, 2018 10:38 AM

Jag3777: I agree, in principle, but I still say that is a theoretical position, and not real world realistic or empirical. Since 2008, we have entered a (irreversible?) period of non-standard economics. The G7 CBs are not instruments of the government: they are instruments of the BIS and the asset owning international superclass. They are not a sovereign, but a supra-sovereign entity. As such, they have acted collectively to destroy economies: to preserve the wealth of the superclass. In as much as governments have gone along with this, they have colluded too: conspiring against the electorate. I contend that they CANNOT be said to be a sovereign entity: or the sovereign issuer of currency. It is doubtful they can be referred to as ‘sovereign’ at all. I’ve cited Nomi Prins – Collu$ion: How Central Bankers Rigged the World for the empirical position. So they [the G7 CBs] manufactured the size… Read more »

John G
John G
Jul 21, 2018 8:58 PM
Reply to  BigB

Absolutely nothing to do with MMT or the subject at hand. The BIS does not create currency like sovereign governments do. It has no real power, whatever influence it has.

It is ironic indeed that you claim that my position is theoretical.

MMT describes the system as it exists in the real world. All money is ‘conjured’.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 22, 2018 5:41 AM
Reply to  BigB

Central banks generally don’t spend reserves into the system. Only government fiscal outlays do that.

Try reading the Het economist link that you’ve ignored so studiously.

Until you are prepared to learn you are detrimental to any left politics.

BigB
BigB
Jul 23, 2018 9:05 AM
Reply to  jag37777

That is really quite offensive, and also factually wrong. I did read the Het economist, in fact I read about a dozen articles on there. Your arrogant assertion that I do not know the MMT position is also wrong, in fact I am reading “Reclaiming the State” by Bill Mitchell. I’ve only just started so I can’t comment yet, so I’ll have to get back to you on that. Suffice to say, I am in general agreement with MMT. That said, I’m beginning to take a dislike to the supercillious attitude of fundamentalist MMTers, looking down on the unwashed and unenlightened from their intellectual Ivory Tower. My experience is that MMTers will take no criticism. Even from Steve Keen, who broadly supports the theory too. There appears to be the need to model MMT in a sectoral analysis to understand if any credit/demand/income leakage that may occur in international trade.… Read more »

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 23, 2018 8:44 PM
Reply to  BigB

Drivel and nonsense.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 23, 2018 11:11 PM
Reply to  BigB

Tone policing is a tactic of the right. And as far as ad hominem goes? Have a good look at yourself.

balkydj
balkydj
Jul 20, 2018 8:36 AM

“Hohoho, what a jolly breakfast discussion .. ” said Le Baron “I didn’t say we aren’t gonna get our hair mussed”. Nice one, Mulga 😉 It would appear to Balky, that there is more than a little financial confusion going on here, (Rothschild & Co.’s agenda, incidentally) , judging by the comments below: so, some might appreciate something credible as a reference pointer , from an historical perspective >> A worthwhile read: from Richard Werner – https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1057521915001477 because, everything-everything is about to change, again, before Dec. 2020: given the impossible state of Sovereign Financial Affairs presently, (after 100 years of economic stagnation & the Dollar Hegemony of the Creature from Jekyll Island of Ponzi Schemers), it was inevitable, unavoidable and anybody who thinks that the biggest makers & shakers of markets have not been planning on how to rein in & regain control is ‘Delusional’ .. and it will defo.… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Jul 20, 2018 12:24 PM
Reply to  balkydj

Balky: have you got a reference for the blockchain SDR: or is it your own theory? I’m not questioning it: I also believe the SDR is the endgame for ‘global economic governance’ …only I had not linked its potential commercialisation to blockchain technology. Thanks for the heads up! 🙂

Big B
Big B
Jul 31, 2018 10:11 PM
Reply to  BigB

Balky: the latest 2018 BRICS declaration commits to Distributed Ledgers and crypto …you may be on to something!

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 19, 2018 7:33 PM

Big B, banks DO NOT and CAN NOT create reserves. Only government can.
Reserves are the currency units used within the payments system between banks and between government and banks.
Government spending creates reserves and taxation destroys them. Selling bonds reduces reserve balances, redeeming them increases reserve balances.
Bank lending nets to zero. For every unit of bank credit there is an equal debt.
Government bond sales do not create bank credit. Bank balance sheets do not expand with bond purchases.
Learn the difference between horizontal and vertical money and think about the balance sheet.

pigswiggle
pigswiggle
Jul 18, 2018 5:55 PM

The author asks, “But can it work?” in reference to MMT. It already does. MMT does not describe an option; it describes the current reality of countries which use a modern fiat monetary system (so not the eurozone nations). While it is correct that banks create a lot of bank deposits through their lending activities, they do not create all of it. The government already issues (and revokes) currency daily. This is what spending and tax operations are: crrency issuance and currency revocation, respectively. The problem is not that banks lend money and thereby create deposits. The problem is that the government relies too much on bank lending to drive aggregating spending in the economy and employment. It sits on its hands instead of taking an active part through its own spending and taxation decisions. That is basically the heart of neoliberalism: the government stays out of the economy. Of… Read more »

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 18, 2018 8:32 PM
Reply to  pigswiggle

Well said.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 17, 2018 10:14 PM

Big B, nobody in MMT is conflating anything. You are confused. ‘Reserves’ are currency. They are the government money in the payments system.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 17, 2018 10:12 PM

To Jen.

Bank credit does not buy government bonds. Only government money (reserves) can buy bonds or extinguish tax liabilities.

When a government bond is bought, there is a corresponding decrease in a reserve balance. i.e. no money created.

When a bond is redeemed that amount returns to the reserve accounts.It’s a ledger transfer only.

Bonds DO NOT raise revenue. They are merely savings accounts.

You need to understand the difference between currency and bank credit. Vertical vs horizontal. Not all money is equal.

pigswiggle
pigswiggle
Jul 19, 2018 7:12 PM
Reply to  jag37777

I’m highly disturbed that this factually accurate comment has been voted down nine times. (I just gave it the sole thumbs up.) The content of this post is absolutely right, and it is critical that leftists understand how fiat monetary systems operate. It would be appropriate for somebody who does not understand this to ask questions, so that the left’s misunderstandings of how the monetary systems work can be cleared up. Socialist policies simply cannot be enacted absent a proper understanding of this.

Calgacus
Calgacus
Jul 20, 2018 6:33 PM
Reply to  pigswiggle

Yup, I just voted it up too. The problem is that people confuse themselves so much with irrelevant details that they start arguing perfectly crazy positions. The details might be true, about how the evil corporations and whatever corruptly control the government, but that doesn’t change the fact that their control is exercised only through corrupting the government. Therefore, bad guys have NO power over a non-corrupt government that understands how things work = who understand MMT or (true) Keynesist/Kaleckian/Institutional/Creditary/Circuitist economics. Instead, people insist that the simplest tautologies are not true. Government money and government bonds are different from private bank money and private bank debts, because governments and banks are different entities. A pound note is different from a dollar bill. One is a UK government obligation, the other is a US government obligation. But too much of the left here misunderstands money as badly as someone who thinks… Read more »

John G
John G
Jul 20, 2018 7:49 PM
Reply to  Calgacus

It’s alarming that the private Fed tales are gaining currency on the left too.

Big B
Big B
Jul 20, 2018 8:11 PM
Reply to  John G

John G: perhaps you would like to explain the concerted actions of the G7 CBs acting within their mandate as democratic state institutions? Or the public Fed authorising share buybacks for the TBTF banks? Our destroyed economies are the evidence that the Fed and the other CBs are acting for private – not public – interests.

John G
John G
Jul 21, 2018 9:01 PM
Reply to  Big B

Strawman arguments, red herrings and distractions all.

Rhamphotyphlops
Rhamphotyphlops
Jul 17, 2018 7:43 AM

It is very good to see OffGuardian posting some economic discussions, as in the end this controls so many of the other issues that they discuss here. I agree with the author that money is currently created by banks and there is no reason that this could not be done by the government. The main problems with banks creating money is that it is in the form of credit with accompanying interest charges that go back to the banks which have do nothing productive to earn them. The other problem with banks creating money is that they do so solely on the basis of whether it makes them money, with no consideration of credit bubbles or whether the money is even being put to productive use rather than creating housing bubbles, which then inevitably collapse causing a lot of pain for the population that it is inflicted on. However, the… Read more »

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 17, 2018 8:30 PM

You didn’t read the article.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 16, 2018 8:16 PM

‘Positive Money’ and MMT are not the same. PM have a rather odd monetarist view of the system.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 16, 2018 5:11 AM

Well I do so love being called a troll by know nothings.

http://heteconomist.com/verticalhorizontal-vs-exogenousendogenous/

Vertical/Horizontal vs Exogenous/Endogenous

Banks do not create vertical (government currency/reserves) money. They can only get those from the government.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 16, 2018 9:13 AM
Reply to  jag37777

That was meant for the person who accused me of trolling below.

ron
ron
Jul 15, 2018 8:24 PM

sovereign brexit now – that’s what we voted for – may should be arrested on grounds of treason and her cabal should be imprisoned for life – BREXIT NOW – nothing less

balkydj
balkydj
Jul 20, 2018 10:05 AM
Reply to  ron

Perhaps balky agrees, but how the hell do you think the average Greek feels, given that they voted in their referendum with a far more distinct, definitive and qualitative NO / OXI , with a 62% Majority on financial matters .. and then the Traitor & Coward Tsipras, went and did the exact opposite , after spunking 20 million euros on the referendum .. He should not just be arrested , IMHO , he should be imprisoned indefinitely on Mykonos, chained up in a local nightclub and waterboarded daily , until he gives up every single name and repeats for the record, every single word of those external forces that leveraged and swayed him to sacrifice ALL democratic principle .. “mememe” or You you you guys in the UK really have had yer’ heads in the sand for way too long and have truly not been paying attention to Market… Read more »

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Jul 15, 2018 3:31 PM

If anyone wants an example of something like MMT in action, just consider the case of the People’s Republic of China:

1.) All banks state owned and not for profit – no finance sector parasites
2.) Tightly controlled currency – no free-floating exchange susceptible to speculation
3.) Select controls on buying/selling (e.g., residential real estate) to prevent inflation

Of course, there’s more to it than just that; MMT in this case is just part of a larger package of ‘socialism with Chinese characteristics’. It remains to be demonstrated that such a system could ever arise in another political context. China, after all, is unusually large, doesn’t have much immigration, and has had for some years now a booming export sector … therefore hard to imagine such a thing working in modern Britain, for example. But I believe that it’s very similar to what George Orwell once called approvingly ‘patriotic socialism’.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Jul 16, 2018 2:30 AM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

China also has a single party of power that any can join and rise according to one’s abilities. There is no fraudulent ‘multi-party’ crap, that only breeds division and partisan hatreds, classic Divide and Rule tactics, while REAL power resides firmly with the owners of the country. And Chinese leaders follow old Chinese governance principles melded with socialist principles where the benefit of the public is paramount, and, if neglected, the Mandate of Heaven is lost, or as Mao said, if the Communist Party becomes corrupt and antagonistic towards the people, like the situation in the neo-liberal West, then the Chinese people will just make another revolution. The contrast between the dynamism, sanity, effectiveness and forward-thinking of the Chinese system and the insane and morally repellent social division and hatred, grotesque and growing inequality, psychopathic social savagery and class, race and sectarian hatred and geo-political aggression and genocidal destructiveness of… Read more »

Maggie
Maggie
Jul 16, 2018 10:11 AM

China and Russia both appear to have the right idea.
Here is what Russia does with greedy parasites:

I came upon this information whilst researching the ‘monster’ Putin?

BigB
BigB
Jul 16, 2018 6:51 PM

MM: Dr Tim Morgan has recently blogged about the cost of maintaining China’s ” grand bargain” of promised future prosperity – a growing debt dependency creating a monumental and unsustainable habit for an economic credit junkie system. Borrowing 30% of GDP per annum (down from 38%) to create 6-7% growth is not going to make anyone rich in the long term. In comparison, America’s 5.8% borrowing looks quite modest? Of course, very little of that will go to citizens, other than a relative few Trump supporters …to feed the powerbase. Unfortunately, the neoliberal Chinese Dragon is the engine of the coming global crisis; compelled into expansionism whether it is profitable or not; heading to precipitate GFC II …if Italy don’t beat them to it?

https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/2018/07/02/130-grand-bargains-dangerous-choices/#comments

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Jul 17, 2018 12:18 AM
Reply to  BigB

I rather suspect that the Chinese Government know precisely what they are doing. Not to insult Tim Morgan, but predictions of China’s imminent collapse have been a staple of the fakestream media for as long as I can remember. The mucilaginous compradore Gordon Chang has made a career out of it for thirty years, and he still appears on TV spreading his racist poison. These Sinophobe creeps even fail to comprehend the law of large numbers that explains why China’s growth rate ‘falling’ from 10% plus to 6.something is inevitable, and no sign of anything untoward. My confidence in the Chinese is driven by two factors. One, that their meritocratic, utilitarian and non-exploitative, in foreign relations, system is vastly superior on every level to the psychopathic destructiveness of end-stage neo-feudal Free Market capitalism in the West. And, second, that they are the only great power actively planning to create an… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Jul 17, 2018 9:52 AM

MM: with respect, what you call an Ecological Civilisation, I call hell on earth …the very antithesis of a human scale, embodied human/nature, and holistic ecology. Search for ‘Global Economic Governance’ and you will see that the Ecological Civilisation is a euphemism for neoliberal globalisation. China are not presenting any alternative: they are part of the Club. If you read any of the BRICS or SCO declarations that I have posted, you would know this. There is no secret, the declared path is integration and globalisation under the current ex-Bretton Woods organisations, and full commitment to the WTO …it is in all their shared literature. I has I have also said before: the end game is for a basket of currencies to replace the dollar as the reserve currency. This is a bankers wet dream (fully backed by the likes of Soros) and humanities nightmare. Every country will need to… Read more »

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Jul 18, 2018 9:57 AM
Reply to  BigB

Youtube is full of videos describing Chinese actions to clean their polluted waters through natural means, reforest huge areas (in Sichuan so extensive that local CO2 levels are often 50 ppm lower than in other parts of China because of the trees utilising the CO2)introduce electric buses and cars, install huge wind farms, solar energy, actual CO2 capture and sequestration, or utilisation in growing algae or making concrete etc. I could go on all day, and you can also see discussions with Westerners who have been working with the Chinese on ecological repair for decades. In my opinion your attitude is too Manichean, but I’m in no position to accuse others of that. I agree with much of your diagnosis, but I believe that there is a silver lining to the dark cloud of neo-liberal capitalism in China, whereas in the West the picture is dark, and growing darker.

BigB
BigB
Jul 19, 2018 12:55 AM

Where is the silver lining in neoliberal globalisation? Much less so in Global Economic Governance? Surely that needs no deciphering as to its implications. Do we really want a global single free trade zone, subsumed sovereignty, borderless nation states with free movement for labour, goods, services, and last, but not least – capital? China could use MMT to finance ecological reparations – without globalisation.Without exporting its overcapacities to turn SE Asia into a giant carpark: they could instead invest in the knowledge, wellbeing, health, etc of its citizens without opening up to the vagaries of FDI, H-bonds (floating SOEs on HK and Macau exchanges, as their own are too systemically fragile – see below), capital flight, or unsustainable debt. And contrary to some commenters, the debts are not all in RMB – so they are unsustainable. China is clearly following free market strategy and NCE – and we know how… Read more »

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Jul 20, 2018 9:37 AM
Reply to  BigB

The Chinese are doing fantastic things to reverse the ecological devastation caused by the economic growth required to avert Western aggression. They are precisely and heavily investing in the knowledge, wellbeing and health of their people, and in Africa etc. Wherever did you get the idea that China was not investing in knowledge, where its education system is hugely successful, well-being, where Chinese wages and consumption, foreign travel and access to resources has grown markedly for decades and health, where, after years of private provision designed to drive domestic savings? China is expanding a national health insurance system. And the idea that Chinese social progress could be de-railed by FDI, bonds or capital flight is, in my opinion, plainly misguided. As for Chinese debt, that is the last refuge of the ‘China’s Fall’ brigade, I fear/

BigB
BigB
Jul 20, 2018 11:55 AM

MM: re-read what I wrote. I was drawing the distinction that China could do all those things, WITHOUT them being contingent on neoliberal globalisation or global economic governance …or foreign finance (FDI). I agree, perhaps I should have emphasised ‘continue’ to do such things, as you correctly point out. But they could, and should, continue to do all those things funded by sovereign RMB. They do not need to liberalise or open up to foreign capital. Nor do they need to open up to private capital internally – which has been policy since 2013. My point is that neoliberalising jeopardises everything long-term. Foreign and private debts matter. Being a dollar vassal is economic suicide. And neoliberalisation will drive inequality, not equality …a point Michael Hudson recently made, in China, to the Chinese. Fuck the SDR, fuck globalisation, double fuck the dollar, and triple fuck Goldman $uch$ – don’t let them… Read more »

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Jul 18, 2018 9:37 PM
Reply to  BigB

China’s ” grand bargain” of promised future prosperity – a growing debt dependency creating a monumental and unsustainable habit for an economic credit junkie system. Borrowing 30% of GDP per annum (down from 38%) to create 6-7% growth is not going to make anyone rich in the long term. You are misinformed. The Chinese govt. is the world’s largest creditor, not debtor. As far as all the ‘Chinese debt’ that the Wall Street Journal is forever going on and on about, that’s just a bunch of funny-money that state-owned Chinese corporations owe state-owned Chinese banks. Big deal. It’s no different than the US Treasury Dept. ‘owing’ the Fed; for that matter, it’s no different than your left pocket owing your right pocket some money. Meanwhile, the average Chinese consumer or private company caries much less debt than their counterparts in America–by an order of magnitude. And China’s sovereign debt is… Read more »

Big B
Big B
Jul 18, 2018 10:26 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

I was quoting Dr Tim Morgan: so it is his analysis that you dispute. You may have missed the part-privatisation of SOEs in 2013, and neoliberalisation of Foreign Direct Investment – not all debt is state to state or denominated in RMB. Private and foreign debts matter, as Steve Keen says.

I would further recommend you to Jack Rasmus’: Sytemic Fragility in the Global Economy. He dedicates a whole chapter to China: titled “Bubbles, Bubbles, Debt, and Troubles”. He details China’s ‘triple bubble machine’ economy. Bubbles in real estate: corporate junk bonds and refinancing older SOEs; and its internal stock markets (Shanghai and Schenzen). All three are being financially engineered to shore them up and prevent contagion …so far, so good: but is is sustainable and expandable?

I’m afraid your analysis is outdated. No, I have not heard of a Chinabond …but I guess I soon will. 🙂

Calgacus
Calgacus
Jul 20, 2018 6:45 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

If you google “Chinese government bond” you will get a lot of information on them. About 10+ trillion dollars of bonds, the third largest bond market in the world is not zero. As others note below, fixing currency rates (too high) is a problem that has wrecked many countryies, like Venezuela who practice this insane policy. Too many people reverse the cure and the disease: Fixing causes damaging speculation. (And enriches finance.) Floating prevents it. (And allows for growth and development)

pigswiggle
pigswiggle
Jul 19, 2018 10:42 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

None of the factors you mention have anything to do with MMT. First, MMT does not have anything to say about whether banks should be nationalized (although I certainly think the government should operate a national bank). But MMT has nothing to say about the existence of the finance sector, and its advocates do not oppose bank lending generally. However, a government that understands its real spending capacity and utilized it to create full employment would certainly have the effect of reducing the size and influence of the finance sector, which, in my opinion, is a good thing (and even a necessary thing). Otherwise, the finance sector’s activity would be curtailed by good, old-fashioned government regulation, the way it was before neoliberals took over power. Second, MMT actually assumes a floating exchange rate, which it considers essential to a modern monetary system. The exchange rate only affects the domestic nation’s… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Jul 15, 2018 12:13 PM

Nature cannot afford the lifestyle we aspire to: it is just that simple. Even if it could: we still do not have a funding or capital creation crisis (not with virtually ‘free’ ZIRP credit and finance) – we have an allocation and distribution crisis. We need to do much more: with much less – more equitably, ethically, and globally distributed. We are in ecological overshoot, depleting even supposedly renewable resources (such as forestry and fishing) with our current rates of cannibalistic consumption; creating an unsustainable materialistic lifestyle for around 14% of the global population; of whom, only the upper one percent see the profit. Yet there is plenty of capital available: only, it is unregulated and liberalised to seek the highest return – as bonuses and dividends, share buybacks, mergers and acquisitions, leveraged buyouts, or gambled on exotic derivatives. Returns flow offshore through secrecy jurisdictions (facilitated by the like of… Read more »

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Jul 16, 2018 2:36 AM
Reply to  BigB

There is a ready solution to the implosion of neo-liberal capitalism under debt and inequality, and to the ecological Holocaust now making itself so very apparent. Massive depopulation of the ‘useless eaters’ that the global cannibal.predator/parasite caste so hate and fear. With their great interest in depopulation discussed repeatedly at Western elite cabals for decades, I’m surprised that they haven’t unleashed some bio-weapon (surely the preferred means, high tech and thermo-nuclear war being just too destructive of lovely property)yet. They are leaving it awfully late.

mog
mog
Jul 17, 2018 1:44 PM
Reply to  BigB

I was a campaigner for Positive Money for some years, which was a variant on a monetary reform idea. One reason I am no longer involved is the attachment to ‘growth’ that I encountered within the movement – i.e the making of arguments about economic ‘advantages’ of a more equitable banking/ money system. As well as the ecological implications of growth fundamentalism, I now regard further economic growth as destructive to human psychology/ spiritual well being. So many activities that used to be done for free out of some combination of love and commmunity interdependance are now done through the medium of money. Economic activity destroys human community, money has replaced trust between people. MMT, Sovereign Money, etc are alluring as ‘silver bullets’ or panaceas, but the problem lies elsewhere in my opinion. Democratising money creation could really help, although how do we make the structures to hold the money… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Jul 17, 2018 3:05 PM
Reply to  mog

Mog: I couldn’t have put it better myself, Bravo!

Toby
Toby
Jul 19, 2018 10:31 AM
Reply to  mog

That’s my experience too, Mog. The two money systems I have seen that are ready for steady-state economics are negative-interest money proposals as detailed by Charles Eisenstein in Sacred Economics, plus a very similar idea from a German outfit called Wissensmanufaktur. They call their proposal “Plan B”, but I don’t know if they’ve had it translated into English. There’s also the “Infomoney” (or “Informationsgeld”) idea from an Austrian professor of accounting called Franz Hoermann. His proposal is radical indeed: dynamic digital ‘money’ creation and destruction during economic exchange between parties as an accountancy record around “asymmetrical prices”. His proposal strips money of its function as store of value, which I find very attractive. His works are in German too, but I translated plenty of it at my blog a few years back (http://thdrussell.blogspot.com/search/label/Professor%20Hoermann). It’s an idea that takes plenty of getting used and is not without its flaws, but is… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Jul 19, 2018 1:10 PM
Reply to  Toby

There’s also Shimomuran-Wernerian no-cost “investment credit creation” (ICC): which Labour’s NDB looks like a watered down version of: https://medium.com/@georgetaitedwards/the-ten-commandments-for-creating-an-economic-miracle-in-the-uk-or-elsewhere-21ce8ebba4c9 When Steve Keen has the time, he is going to model the trade aspect of MMT in Minsky …to get a more accurate view of what is empirical. It’s not how we fund: it’s what we fund. MMT could fund other ways of being: other than having as an ends of a globalised industrialized production cycle …if there is the demand that leads to (spiritual) growth. But so could NCE: if demand was for other than false consciousness wants, needs, and desires that cost the earth. There is already too much capital seeking no-risk, high returns – guaranteed by governments willing to socialise the risk. If governments are nominally creating money: then they are complicit in gambling with it? The G7 CBs have colluded to destroy social welfare and productive economies:… Read more »

Toby
Toby
Jul 19, 2018 7:39 PM
Reply to  BigB

I think it’s both how and why, indeed, I believe the pair is inseparable in practice. If the how includes money-creation procedures that always come with compound interest, that represents a continuous pressure towards growth of economic activity/production. I suppose it’s conceivable that periodic resets and redistributions to unblock an out-of-balance system could be deliberately engineered at need, but I see that as risky and centralising (power corrupts, etc.). You cover all those juicy dangers in your last para. Which leads to the other, deeper and more intractable problem: How we relate to money culturally. If we all Just Know that having more is better, even that it’s what the game of life is about, that too is a continual pressure towards economic growth. This needs addressing and would require a long debate about value, a very slippery concept. While it stays unaddressed, the why of funding will be dangerously… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Jul 20, 2018 1:25 PM
Reply to  Toby

Toby – Re: interest and growth …the way I see it, interest is not such a problem: who the interest accrues to is the problem. If the state is democratic and the sovereign issuer of currency (which I contend it is not); and the CB was nationalised, democratic and transparent (ditto) …say the NDB funded a windfarm with nominal interest; the repayments, even if compounding, are funding and growing a post carbon future? The interest (and amortisation of the principal) are the seed funds of the next tidal lagoon. When we have our (self-funding) future: we owe a debt only to ourselves – there are no third party rentiers involved – so we can cancel the debt so long as it is in our sovereign currency, if we so choose. Money could lead to a future gift economy of symbolic exchange? Clearly, there is something quite different happening now. Debts… Read more »

Toby
Toby
Jul 20, 2018 8:33 PM
Reply to  BigB

Your take on the positive role interest might play reminds me of Ellen brown’s position, and I confess having been strongly taken with it. Germany’s Landesbanken have, I believe, something like that in their moral constitution and approach to business. There are other examples of that kind. My problem with positive interest is that it feeds into the importance of money as a thing that magically grows forever, that being money-rich is what life’s all about, thus turning it into a beacon for the greedy/sociopathic. (I’m being simplistic for the sake of brevity.) Which is what has happened: control of money has wound up in the hands of the unscrupulous because it is such an excellent tool of control via compound interest. And, perhaps more pernicious than that, compound interest still ‘forces’ (or tends to encourage) perpetual economic growth. Perhaps not by maths per se, but in its power ever… Read more »

mog
mog
Jul 20, 2018 1:42 AM
Reply to  Toby

So many ideas, probably all of which are more sane than what we have now.

Mary Mellor’s work interested me.

Positive Money have campaigned for the BoE to prioritise low carbon investment, but that is so naive it is pretty ridiculous. I am with Richard Werner in sharing the fear of a new monetary regime of BoE dgital cash and UBI -as an attempt to centrally manage the decline in the fossil fuel economy through an Orwellian model.
Then of course there is Quigley’s writing…

Mellor takes the PM idea and tries to slot it into socialism. Worth a look, even if ‘academic’.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 26, 2018 7:54 PM
Reply to  mog

The fact that you see MMT and democratising the ‘money supply’ merely demonstrates that you have little to no understanding of MMT.
Secondly, economic growth does not equate to increased natural resource use or depletion.
The hardest part in learning real world macroeconomics is in releasing your prior conditioning and opening your mind.
The ‘left’ of today has adopted many of the right wing shibboleth of the past.

Frankly Speaking
Frankly Speaking
Jul 15, 2018 5:53 AM

“Governments…could create money themselves in order to pay for increased public expenditure without incurring the interest costs that borrowing would incur.
If governments can create money then it follows that what they spend doesn’t have to be constrained by revenue from taxation”.

It’s pretty obvious what this would lead to, politicians spending like there’s no tomorrow and rampant inflation and devaluation of the currency. Government having to pay interest rates for borrowing money and paying back through taxation is a brake on recklessness. I’m all for government borrowing more to invest in infrastructure, especially at low interest rates, but removing controls would be disastrous.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 15, 2018 7:28 AM

And yet there is a shortage of government spending leading to endemic under employment and stagnant wage growth in the neoliberal world.
I think there’s a flaw in your thinking.

Antonyl
Antonyl
Jul 15, 2018 2:52 AM

Is concentrating all power in the hand of bureaucrats a good idea? I have only seen negative sides to that.
Monolithic power goes bad for the 99%, where you call it Google, Apple or the Ministry.
Present human nature in action.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Jul 16, 2018 2:39 AM
Reply to  Antonyl

You’d clearly prefer the current system-concentrating all power in the hands of hostile elites, particularly the banksters, I would imagine.

Antonyl
Antonyl
Jul 18, 2018 12:20 PM

No, I prefer a setup where any organization that threatens to become too big (or powerful) to fail is automatically split up in two parallel pieces, geographically of otherwise.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Jul 20, 2018 9:43 AM
Reply to  Antonyl

Split by whom, and why only two pieces?

rilme
rilme
Jul 15, 2018 1:31 AM

Britain and Norway found a money tree beneath the North Sea. They took the gas. Norway invested its share as a money tree for future generations. Britain pirated its share; now it’s gone.

https://www.nbim.no/en/the-fund/

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 15, 2018 8:31 AM
Reply to  rilme

They found oil under the North Sea. Oil is a commodity. Money is an accounting system.

BigB
BigB
Jul 15, 2018 12:20 PM
Reply to  jag37777

Money is energy: with a >99% coefficient of correlation. Rilme is right.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 15, 2018 8:55 PM
Reply to  BigB

Money is an accounting system of credits and debts.

BigB
BigB
Jul 15, 2018 11:36 PM
Reply to  jag37777

Credit and debts based on what? The economy has to be physically coupled to outputs and consumption of something …otherwise it is meaningless. The primary input into the economy is energy. Credit is an advance of energy, or its equivalent. Debt is a claim on future energy use. Money = energy (>0.99% ratio).
comment image

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 16, 2018 5:04 AM
Reply to  BigB

No it isn’t. Money is virtual and infinite. Come to terms with that or you’ll never understand macro.

BigB
BigB
Jul 16, 2018 4:07 PM
Reply to  jag37777

Money, in the form of GDP, is biophysically constrained. See Hall and Klitgaard: Energy and the Wealth of Nations.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 16, 2018 8:08 PM
Reply to  BigB

Money is virtual. A man made concept.

BigB
BigB
Jul 16, 2018 11:25 PM
Reply to  jag37777

True, and true – only that does not mean it is unconstrained. There is a running debate led by ecomodernists that money (GDP) can be decoupled from the environment. So far, there has only been a weak decoupling, probably through the effects of financial engineering (QE, APP, Trumps tax break). But the underlying reality is that money = energy = oil. Just saying it is not will not change the empirical facts.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 17, 2018 1:55 AM
Reply to  BigB

The empirical fact is that monetary systems are virtual and any tying of them to any resource or commodity is arbitrary.
Unless you’d like to lay out some evidence otherwise, I don’t think you’ve thought this through.

BigB
BigB
Jul 17, 2018 8:44 AM
Reply to  BigB

Making such a claim is rash and invalidates your position. I’ve cited Hall and Klitgaard for the general thesis: which is both scientific and empirical. Among other sources would be Dr Tim Morgan’s, or Gail Tverberg’s blogs …but there are countless others. If you are claiming to be an authentic voice for MMT, then MMT needs to go back and take account of such things as biophysical inputs, entropy, waste and heat outputs to sink …otherwise it is just another theoretical and arbitrary econometric devoid of reality: which was my first and main point.

mog
mog
Jul 18, 2018 8:07 AM
Reply to  jag37777

‘Money is virtual. A man made concept.’

It is yes, but there are constraints that give it value or meaning. Hypothetically, in just a matter of seconds any imaginable quantity of money could be created at a laptop keyboard, but of course the amount would have implications for its value or meaning or usefulness. To answer the question ‘Why can’t we just create an infinite amount of money?’ demands a consideration of the real economy, and therefore surplus energy, and therefore energy density of oil and its alternatives (so far none).

Just repeating an axiom over and over doesn’t engage with reasoned argument.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 19, 2018 10:05 PM
Reply to  mog

Nobody is asking that question but you.

MMT is acutely aware of real world constraints. But that doesn’t mean that scores are limited.

The Quantity Theory of Money that you are hinting at was debunked in the 1930s. Unfortunately the monetarists and neoliberals overthrew modern economic thinking and brought it back as a big stick to beat the masses with.

Thanks for nothing Milton.

BigB
BigB
Jul 20, 2018 1:51 PM
Reply to  mog

Jag3777: look at the graph I posted – GDP tracks energy (an MTOE) >99%. Or show me your graph of where it does not track?

Toby
Toby
Jul 19, 2018 10:52 AM
Reply to  jag37777

That’s true, like number systems generally. But it’s not the whole truth. A simple metaphor suffices to highlight the deficiency of your position:

Imagine you have all the money on earth, or even an ‘infinite’ amount of it, all to yourself. But you are with it on the Moon, with no air to breathe, water drink or soil to till, and no means of returning to earth. How wealthy are you? How much value do you ‘own’?

All value is rooted in the dynamic health of ecosystems, not in numbers that appear to count how valuable they are. Money, however we define it, is not value itself. It is only an abstraction of value whose efficacy is entirely derived from how it is connected to that value.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 19, 2018 6:50 PM
Reply to  Toby

Money is virtual and infinite no matter how many red herrings and ifs and buts you put.
Recognise the reality then work from there.

Toby
Toby
Jul 19, 2018 7:43 PM
Reply to  Toby

@jag37777:
I do recognise that and do work from there to include the rest of physical reality. That’s what I said in my comment. I don’t see the rest of physical reality as a red herring though.

mog
mog
Jul 20, 2018 2:15 PM
Reply to  Toby

@jag

‘Only when the last tree has been cut down; Only when the last river has been poisoned; Only when the last fish has been caught; Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.

An oldy but a goody.

We recognise the reality that money is infinite. You do not recognise the reality that resources and energy are finite. Work from there.

Calgacus
Calgacus
Jul 20, 2018 7:26 PM
Reply to  Toby

Toby: But it [MMT] does not appear to go far enough in my view, and retains too much of the current Why and How of money to produce an approach that encourages and is capable of sustaining steady-state economics. Of course I could be wrong! Good. Well, nobody can go far enough. But MMT is far ahead of its critics here. MMT is just accounting and counting correctly, in a way that human beans can understand. The critic here just don’t do that. There are some statements here that governments don’t deficit-spend or maybe that they can’t in the current system. Even the mainstream media doesn’t say this! In reality, governments like those of the UK and the US create money when they spend. That’s the way it works now. That is something you understand if you patiently read the arguments, rather than indulging in rhetoric against the Bad People.… Read more »

Toby
Toby
Jul 20, 2018 8:06 PM
Reply to  Toby

@Calgacus Like you seem to be with my position, I’m having a hard time making sense of yours. A saner (though untrue) accusation against MMT is that it is all plagiarism 😉 It was in all the textbooks decades ago – I more or less learnt it during the 70s. Took me a while to realize that, what the MMTers largely did was just clear away a lot of confusing and meaningless bullshit. (If you look at obscure and totally forgotten books and textbooks of the 30s,40s and early 50s as I do – it becomes even harder to say what is new about MMT.) “Untrue”? “It becomes even harder to say what is new about MMT.” Which is it? True or untrue? I’m in your camp – I think – regarding the supposed newness of MMT. I recall in one of my comments putting new in single quotes to… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Jul 20, 2018 9:17 PM
Reply to  Toby

No one seems to know what money is: a claim on something; an IOU; a medium of exchange; a means of accounting; a store of wealth? A tool works for me. Define what we want as a teleological goal; then employ ‘money’ as part of the toolkit to facilitate the desired ends? Otherwise we are creating fictitious capital; an M-M’ self-maximising money-go-round; and money for moneys sake …not our own. Money is employing us; not the other way around. Money has to be pegged to a valorisable goal: even if it is an abstract aspirational enhancement of universal global wellbeing or ecological restoration or racial harmony. Then it can be employed fruitfully? Does having a virtual store of ‘money’ make communities wiser, happier, or more closely knit? Separation from the wealth effect of money is destroying communities, making people depressed, insular, or in extremes, addicted and suicidal. Will unity with… Read more »

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 14, 2018 9:34 PM

We already have an MMT system. MMT describes the system as it is The mainstream economic view is plain wrong.
A large part of the MMT school’s approach is implementing a government jobs guarantee

Husq
Husq
Jul 14, 2018 8:15 PM

unconditional basic income, German, english subtitles,Interview with Götz Werner

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 14, 2018 11:12 PM
Reply to  Husq

UBI can’t work economically or socially. A government jobs guarantee is a much more sensible approach.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Jul 14, 2018 11:54 PM
Reply to  jag37777

Why work at all, as a wage slave, in an era of robotisation, computerisation, automation and artificial intelligence? Simply confiscate all the ill-gotten loot from the parasites, ‘wealth’ stolen from generations of workers, from destroying the natural world, and from genocidal imperial pillage in India, Africa, North America, China etc, and redistribute it to the human beings. Then they can ‘work’ if they wish, or just sit on their arses doing nada, just as the parasitic wealthy can do today. I’d bet that most would find useful, enjoyable, things to do, like gardening, ecological restoration, cultural activities, travel etc, being, at last,’free’ to live as they desire, not as some capitalist blood-sucker or bureaucratic ‘woefare’ sadist demands.

Fair dinkum
Fair dinkum
Jul 15, 2018 12:18 AM

If only Mulga, if only.
Problem being of course, is that they have the soldiers, weapons, prisons and ‘anti terrorism’ laws to ensure that the BLOOD MONEY remains in their BLOOD COVERED CLAWS.

rilme
rilme
Jul 15, 2018 1:25 AM
Reply to  Fair dinkum

As a schoolboy, I imagined the day when robots would do all the work, everyone would get paid anyway, and we could all go to the beach or climb trees.

Silly boy! It didn’t occur to me that the richpigs would grab more than their share of the loot. I should have paid more attention in “History”.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Jul 16, 2018 2:41 AM
Reply to  Fair dinkum

‘I didn’t say we aren’t gonna get our hair mussed’.

Calgacus
Calgacus
Jul 15, 2018 4:01 AM

There are many decisive arguments against a UBI. The good things it can do will be done by a Job Guarantee, which does not have the huge and many flaws of a UBI. One can safely say a true, monetary UBI can never and will never be implemented anywhere. For in monetary terms, these flaws mean a UBI is spectacularly inflationary- it just creates far too much money for any economy to handle.

Note that there are many billionaires who support a UBI (& none who support a JG as far as I know). That’s because what a UBI would do if attempted. It would make the billionaires relatively and probably absolutely richer, and wreck the economy for everyone else, and probably postpone progressive change for at least a generation. Really isn’t just a little suspicion of billionaires bearing gifts warranted?

BigB
BigB
Jul 15, 2018 1:14 PM
Reply to  Calgacus

UBI with a Social Credit Score and/or alienable Rights that come with conformist ‘model citizen’ Responsiblities?

A McBullshit gig economy Job Guarantee – spit’n’shinin’ shoes for Banksters?

I think we need a more imaginative re-envisioning of who and what we want to be – post-production: rather than waiting for crumbs to be brushed from the invert-totalitarian Corporatist table?

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 15, 2018 8:57 PM
Reply to  BigB

That’s not what a jobs guarantee would be.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 15, 2018 4:47 AM

Money isn’t a finite resource that has to be ‘redistributed’ from a fixed, finite pool.
Tax the rich till their pips squeak I say.
But that’s a different issue to utilising and distributing resources equitably.
Governments spend money into existence at will. They tax it out of existence, not to redistribute it.

Frankly Speaking
Frankly Speaking
Jul 15, 2018 6:06 AM

I’m all for social justice and a good dollop of wealth redistribution, but allowing people a lifestyle choice to do absolutely nothing, not even community or social work, yet draw an income from the rest of us, is not going to be accepted by society. It’s bunkum. It’s not even socialism nor communism. As bad as Corporatism is, your alternative extreme solution is not the answer.

Antonyl
Antonyl
Jul 15, 2018 2:48 AM
Reply to  Husq

If the UK would go for unconditional basic income solo, it would attract even more immigrants than it does now…..
Everybody knows English, a blessing .. and a curse.

The Gower Initiative for Modern Money Studies
The Gower Initiative for Modern Money Studies
Jul 14, 2018 7:54 PM

An excellent article, Modern Monetary Theory is simply accounting, a lens for viewing economy and the policy afforded by our currency issuing Government. It’s insights cannot he ignored. Progressive political candidates around the world are adopting an MMT position to push for economic and social equality.

Paul Spencer
Paul Spencer
Jul 14, 2018 6:10 PM

Well done, but you left out a pertinent and powerful argument against such a project – at least as far as many opponents are concerned. This scheme – like socialism – demands socially responsible managers. As in the case of representative democracy, the smaller the crew (such as the US Congress) that is ‘in charge’, the easier and, ultimately, cheaper it is to corrupt the members. Although I think that there are plenty of candidates for the MMT managers (or the socialist technocrats) who can remain socially responsible, it will take a socially responsible and involved organization to monitor and maintain their probity. I don’t think that Labor or the US Democratic Party will be capable. Best to get people of good will to get with the becoming-aware youth to put together a new movement? Also, I think that it’s easier to monitor and manage when the control agencies are… Read more »

Paul Carline
Paul Carline
Jul 15, 2018 4:32 PM
Reply to  Paul Spencer

Decentralisation I.e. distribution of power down to the lowest efficient level, allied with direct democracy – as in Switzerland – would be essential. There could be a residual central ‘government’ (in Switzerland this is 7 individuals from the 3 or 4 pain parties!). Central and local government spending is subject to tight legal limits – and to popular approval in local, regional (cantonal) and national referendums. It seems to work – especially given that Switzerland is a country with few natural resources.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Jul 16, 2018 2:45 AM
Reply to  Paul Carline

Switzerland is a parasite on the rest of the world, a situation that Ireland seems to be trying to emulate. Switzerland is just the Cayman Islands writ large-with eidelweiss not heliconias.

rtj1211
rtj1211
Jul 14, 2018 4:38 PM

The big issue with taxation is avoidance and the refusal to lock up corporate miscreants without trial and remove 100% of their assets.

Justice systems are paid for by taxation, so avoiders should not benefit from them and should lose their ill gotten gains to boot.

Billions upon billions are not collected due to a need to be polite.

Use private sector debt dollection techniques on a few corporate CEOs, CFOs. Amazing how a few crowbars, assaults and the like will make corporations pay their dues in a timely manner.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 14, 2018 10:52 PM
Reply to  rtj1211

You’ve missed the whole gist of MMT. Taxes don’t pay for anything. They represent the government (as issuer of the currency) removing its own credits from the economy.

wardropper
wardropper
Jul 14, 2018 11:55 PM
Reply to  jag37777

I am sure rtj is not missing the whole gist of MMT at all. He is simply making a parallel point about taxation as it currently stands, and why the present system is not working as well as it could.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 15, 2018 4:38 AM
Reply to  wardropper

No. You’ve clearly missed the gist too. The ‘point’ isn’t parallel. It simply isn’t valid.

Jen
Jen
Jul 15, 2018 7:22 AM
Reply to  jag37777

My impression is that in a society that has adopted MMT, governments spend money into existence by funding infrastructure projects which create employment for people, directly (as in jobs in engineering, actual construction, and administrative tasks such as hiring the engineers, workers and others needed on the projects) and indirectly (as in jobs in businesses that supply building materials, machinery and the training, tools and proper clothing that the workers need, for example). The government gets the money back from what people spend on using the goods and services the completed infrastructure projects provide, or from putting their money into bank or other financial products and services which can either be taxed or be provided by the government itself. The idea is that consumer spending itself replaces taxation as the means by which the beneficiaries of government spending return the money back to the government so that money is continuously… Read more »

Jen
Jen
Jul 15, 2018 7:22 AM
Reply to  jag37777

My impression is that in a society that has adopted MMT, governments spend money into existence by funding infrastructure projects which create employment for people, directly (as in jobs in engineering, actual construction, and administrative tasks such as hiring the engineers, workers and others needed on the projects) and indirectly (as in jobs in businesses that supply building materials, machinery and the training, tools and proper clothing that the workers need, for example). The government gets the money back from what people spend on using the goods and services the completed infrastructure projects provide, or from putting their money into bank or other financial products and services which can either be taxed or be provided by the government itself. The idea is that consumer spending itself replaces taxation as the means by which the beneficiaries of government spending return the money back to the government so that money is continuously… Read more »

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 15, 2018 9:09 AM
Reply to  Jen

Governments spend money into existence. Period.

BigB
BigB
Jul 15, 2018 12:51 PM
Reply to  jag37777

Not in the current system: the TBTF banks and Shadow Banks create the money supply, ex nihilo. They (plus pension funds and private investors) lend the Government money (in return for issuing IOUs in the form of Treasury Bonds that pay a regular interest or Coupon). When the term (3 months to 30 years) is up: the principal is repaid in full. The Government spends borrowed money: even though it could issue its own sovereign currency.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 15, 2018 8:59 PM
Reply to  BigB

Banks create bank credit. They do not create the currency (reserves) that governments spend, tax and sell bonds for.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 15, 2018 9:01 PM
Reply to  BigB

MMT describes the system as it exists.

BigB
BigB
Jul 16, 2018 12:34 AM
Reply to  jag37777

Banks create 97% of the money supply which they loan into existence. The Treasury creates 3% of printed and minted money – but these have been privatised too, I believe. The difference between what the government collects as tax and what it spends it borrows from commercial lenders …as above. The difference is the Budget deficit which adds to the National Debt. That is the travesty: if the government democratically controlled the money supply as you say …the Seigniorage and interest would accrue to us – which it very much does not. The profits are privatised which is an indirect taxation on us.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2017/01/03/how-banks-create-money/

Jen
Jen
Jul 16, 2018 1:06 AM
Reply to  BigB

BigB, you are talking to an obvious troll who is deliberately confusing the role of private banks in creating money (through loans) with roles of the United States Federal Reserve (which prints paper money) and the United States Mint (which mints coins), perhaps to discredit MMT.

Best not to feed the troll if you don’t want to get dragged into the troll’s never-ending orbit of repetition.

Calgacus
Calgacus
Jul 16, 2018 1:50 AM
Reply to  BigB

No, jag37777 is correct and is not a troll. BigB’s description of the current monetary system is not correct: The Government spends borrowed money: even though it could issue its own sovereign currency. What is called government borrowing is not borrowing in the way the word is used in any other context. The governments of the UK or the US do issue their own sovereign currency right now. As jag37777 says – Governments spend money into existence. Period. What happens is that they then do a lot of completely pointless nonsense that obscures the simple reality. That is the MMT point, there are many papers and books devoted to showing the complete pointlessness of the shell game with government bonds. Governments spend into existence the folding money that you can put into your pocket. They also spend into existence the government bonds, the gilts that also pay interest. Nobody else… Read more »

Jen
Jen
Jul 16, 2018 3:08 AM
Reply to  BigB

BigB is correct: most money is created by the banking system in the form of loans and other credit. While governments issue sovereign currency and print physical money, most money these days is created through loans to businesses, households and individuals. Loans to businesses may end up as bank deposits for individuals because some of these loans end up as salaries and wages for individuals who then put the money into bank deposit accounts. Once upon a time such loans were in the forms of cheques, certificates or guarantees but these days they are done digitally. Now no physical money (paper or plastic notes or coins) has to be created when banks lend to clients by sticking an agreed-upon number representing the loan to the clients’ bank accounts. At that point the client’s bank has created money. https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy.pdf This is possible because most Western countries have fractional-reserve banking systems which… Read more »

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 16, 2018 5:07 AM
Reply to  BigB

Nope. Banks create bank credit when they make retail loans. They cannot create reserves (government money). The settlement system and all interactions between the banks and government can only be conducted in these reserves.

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 16, 2018 5:15 AM
Reply to  BigB

“interest would accrue to us”

The interest on government bonds is income to the private sector. A government bond is just like you moving money from your cheque account to a term savings account.

Reserves are deducted from your bank’s account at the central bank and a certificate of deposit is registered in the bonds account.

Those reserves had to have come from government spending.

BigB
BigB
Jul 16, 2018 4:48 PM
Reply to  BigB

Jen: thanks!

http://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/further-resources/

Calgacus, Jag37777: I’m posting Positive Money’s Resources page …please read. The confusion seems to be that neither of you seem to understand that currency amounts to just 3% of broad money aggregate (M3). The other 97% is loaned into existence by commercial banks. End of.

Calgacus
Calgacus
Jul 16, 2018 5:29 PM
Reply to  BigB

BigBThe confusion seems to be that neither of you seem to understand that currency amounts to just 3% of broad money aggregate (M3). The other 97% is loaned into existence by commercial banks. End of. We understand that. Positive Money is not the same as MMT and where they differ, MMT is correct. Currency/reserves/government bonds = state money are the most valuable sort of money, the base money that underlies the system. The government cannot get its own money from a private bank, as suggested. It is logically impossible. You have to clearly differentiate between bank money and state money and do the accounting carefully to understand things. Most of Jen’s reply is correct. But the last paragraph needs some work. Also governments raise money by issuing bonds… No, that is not how it works. The upshot, once you clear away all the BS, is that governments create money when… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Jul 16, 2018 10:04 PM
Reply to  BigB

Calgacus: essentially you are saying that MMT is right, and the Fed, the BoE, the Bundesbank, and all those learned Professors (Werner, Keen, Hudson, etc) are all wrong when they say that banks loan 97% of money into existence? The banks mentioned do not know how they create money? From the Bundesbank paper: Disregarding currency in circulation, money within the meaning of the monetary aggregate M3 comes into being through transactions between banks and non- banks. Sight deposits are created by transactions between a bank and a non-bank (its customer I follow Steve Keen: as you probably know, he is having a bit of a spat with the MMTers over trade deficits and suchlike: but both he and Bill Mitchell agree on this point and welcomed the BoE admission. http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=31063 So banks create the M3 money aggregate, as the Bundesbank says? When you or jag3777 conflate currency and reserves I… Read more »

Jen
Jen
Jul 17, 2018 12:55 AM
Reply to  BigB

Government bonds are still technically IOUs and if they are bought by investors, the money that pays for the bond purchases is created by the banks tasked by governments to organise these purchases. In double-entry accounting systems, the loan (to the government) raises an equivalent bank deposit or set of deposits

Jen
Jen
Jul 17, 2018 1:18 AM
Reply to  BigB

Sorry I hit the Enter button accidentally. I meant to say: Government bonds are technically IOUs and if they are bought by investors, the money that pays for the bond purchases is created by the banks tasked by governments to organise these purchases. In double-entry accounting systems, the loan (to the government) raises an equivalent bank deposit or set of such deposits. But the money raised to purchase government bonds has been created by the bank. The difference in modern monetary systems is that physical currency (in the form of paper, plastic or metal objects or pieces) does not have to be created. Investors get acknowledgement from the debtor government that it owes a debt to them in the form of certificates. So while the government issues sovereign currency, it does not create the money raised by its bond issue. A central bank may have created the money if raising… Read more »

Calgacus
Calgacus
Jul 18, 2018 8:11 PM
Reply to  jag37777

BigB:essentially you are saying that MMT is right, and the Fed, the BoE, the Bundesbank, and all those learned Professors (Werner, Keen, Hudson, etc) are all wrong when they say that banks loan 97% of money into existence? The banks mentioned do not know how they create money? Quite confusing. I am not saying this at all. I explicitly agreed that “banks loan 97% of money into existence” above! Hudson is an MMTer – he says MMT is right, as do I, so the above has him disagreeing with himself! Often the Fed and the BoE are right about things, but I said nothing about their positions. If one thinks that MMT needs to be implemented, rather than is what is happening right now, or that it disagrees about banks creating (bank) money, then this just shows lack of understanding with explicit MMT theory. When you or jag3777 conflate currency… Read more »

jag37777
jag37777
Jul 18, 2018 8:45 PM
Reply to  Calgacus
Big B
Big B
Jul 18, 2018 9:55 PM
Reply to  Calgacus

Steve Keen also agrees with the basic premise of MMT, and so do I. But it is no wonder there is confusion if you use terms in non-standard usage without defining, or linking to a definition. Currency is notes and coins (3% of broad money); reserves are non-circulatory; held in vaults or at the CB. Banks took QE money, and held it as interest gaining excess reserves. There is no link between reserves and money in circulation (M3 broad money). This is terminology the banks themselves use (see Bundesbank paper). Using theoretical constructs like bank credit, government money = reserves, or high powered money (HPM) becomes an MMT argot. It does not necessarily describe how thing are. Where the MMT position becomes even more theoretical, and not descriptive of the real world, is that post 2008 the G7 CBs acted collectively to save the asset owning class, and destroy productive… Read more »