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No, the UN did NOT report China has “Massive Internment Camps” for Uighur Muslims

by Ben Norton and Arjit Singh, via Grayzone Project,  August 23, 2018

Media outlets from Reuters to The Intercept falsely claimed the UN had condemned China for holding a million Uighurs in camps. The claim is based on unsourced allegations by two independent commission members, US-funded outfits and a shadowy opposition group.

Numerous major media outlets, from Reuters to The Intercept, have claimed that the United Nations has reports that the Chinese government is holding as many as 1 million Uighur Muslims in “internment camps.” But a close examination of these news stories, and of the evidence behind them — or the lack thereof — demonstrates that the extraordinary claim is simply not true.

A spokesperson from the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) confirmed in a statement to the Grayzone that the allegation of Chinese “camps” was not made by the United Nations, but rather by a member of an independent committee that does not speak for the UN as a whole. That member happened to be the only American on the committee, and one with no background of scholarship or research on China.

Moreover, this accusation is based on the thinly sourced reports of a Chinese opposition group that receives funding from foreign governments and is closely tied to exiled pro-US activists. There have been numerous reports of discrimination against Uighur Muslims in China. However, information about camps containing one million prisoners has originated almost exclusively from media outlets and organizations funded and weaponized by the American government to turn up the heat on Beijing.

A blatant falsehood introduced by Reuters and echoed across mainstream media

On August 10, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination conducted its regular review of China’s compliance with the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. The review, which is conducted periodically for all 179 parties to the Convention, has generated a frenzied response by the Western corporate press — one which is uniformly misleading.

On the day of the review, Reuters published a report with an explosive headline: “U.N. says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps.”

The claim was feverishly reproduced by outlets such as The New York Times and The Washington Post to denounce China and call for international action. Even The Intercept’s Mehdi Hasan belted out the breathless headline, “One Million Muslim Uighurs Have Been Detained by China, the U.N. Says. Where’s the Global Outrage?” The impression readers were given was that the UN had conducted an investigation and had formally and collectively made such charges against China. In fact, the UN had done no such thing.

The headline of Reuters’ report attributed its explosive claim to the UN; yet the body of the article ascribed it simply to the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. And this committee’s official website makes it clear that it is “a body of independent experts,” not UN officials.

What’s more, a look at the OHCHR’s official news release on the committee’s presentation of the report showed that the only mention of alleged re-education “camps” in China was made by its sole American member, Gay McDougall. This claim was then echoed by a Mauritanian member, Yemhelhe Mint Mohamed.

During the committee’s regular review of China, McDougall commented that she was “deeply concerned” about “credible reports” alleging mass detentions of millions of Uighurs Muslim minorities in “internment camps.” The Associated Press reported that McDougall “did not specify a source for that information in her remarks at the hearing.” (Note that the headline of the AP news wire is much weaker than that of Reuters: “UN panel concerned at reported Chinese detention of Uighurs.”)

Video of the session confirms that McDougall provided no sourcing to back up her remarkable claim.

This is to say, one American member of an independent UN body made a provocative claim that China was interning 1 million Muslims, but failed to provide a single named source. And Reuters and the Western corporate media ran with it anyway, attributing the unsubstantiated allegations of one US individual to the UN as a whole.

In an email to the Grayzone Project, OHCHR spokesperson Julia Gronnevet confirmed that the CERD was not representative of the UN as a whole. “You are correct that the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination is an independent body,” Gronnevet wrote. “Quoted comments were made during public sessions of the Committee when members were reviewing State parties.”

Thus the OHCHR implicitly acknowledged that the comments by McDougall, the lone American member of an independent committee, were not representative of any finding by the UN as a whole. The report by Reuters is simply false.

“Credible reports” from a government-funded opposition group with zero transparency

In addition to this irresponsible misreporting, Reuters and other Western outlets have attempted to fill in the gaps left by McDougall, referring to reports made by so-called “activist group” the Network of Chinese Human Rights Defenders (CHRD). Conveniently left out of the story is that this organization is headquartered in Washington, DC.

CHRD, which receives hundreds of thousands of dollars in funding from unnamed governments, advocates full-time against the Chinese government and has spent years campaigning on behalf of extreme right-wing opposition figures.

CHRD is not at all transparent about its funding or personnel. Its annual reports contain notes stating, “This report has been produced with the financial support of generous donors.” But the donors are never named.

Publicly available 990 IRS filing forms reviewed by the Grayzone show that the organization is substantially funded by government grants. In fact, in 2015 virtually all of the organization’s revenue came from government grants.

CHRD statement of revenue Screen-Shot-2018-08-23-at-8.05.01-PM

CHRD’s 2015 form 990 discloses that $819,553 of its $820,023 revenue that year (99.94 percent) came from government grants. A measly $395 came from investments, with another $75 from other sources. According to its 2016 form 990, CHRD received $859,091 in government grants in that year.

CHRD part 7 Screen-Shot-2018-08-23-at-8.05.31-PM

Which government provided these grants is not clear. The Grayzone did not receive a response to several emailed interview requests sent to the Network of Chinese Human Rights Defenders.

However, it appears likely that CHRD could be receiving funding from the US government-backed National Endowment for Democracy (NED).

A search of the NED’s grants database shows funding from 2014 and 2015 totalling approximately half a million dollars to “support the work of Chinese human rights defenders.” It is not clear if this is a reference to the organization specifically, but the description accompanying the grants matches that of CHRD.

CHRD 3 Screen-Shot-2018-08-23-at-8.07.36-PM

CHRD has used its generous funding to provide grants to opposition activists inside China, bankrolling dozens upon dozens of projects in the country.

On its tax forms, CHRD lists its address as the Washington, DC office of Human Rights Watch. HRW has long been criticized for its revolving door with the US government and its excessively disproportionate focus on designated enemies of Washington like China, Venezuela, Syria, and Russia.

Human Rights Watch did not respond to an email from the Grayzone inquiring about its relationship with CHRD.

CHRD’s forms 990 also reveal that the board of the organization is a Who’s Who of exiled Chinese anti-government activists.

The chair of the group is the US-based activist Su Xiaokang, who proclaimed that the Chinese public supposedly “wants the U.S. to watch over activists, and is disappointed when Washington fails.” Fellow US-based dissident Teng Biao is a CHRD director who has sarcastically boasted of how the Chinese communist party dubbed him a “reactionary.”

CHRD’s secretary is the American academic Perry Link, who has built his public reputation on winding up on the Chinese government’s academic “blacklist.” Link testified for the US House Committee on Foreign Affairs in 2014, claiming that the Chinese government is threatening academic freedom in the US.

In his congressional testimony, CHRD secretary Link insisted the US government should crack down on the Chinese government’s Confucius Institute organization and instead fund its own pro-US Chinese-language programs. Link characterized Chinese-language programs as a potential American weapon against the Chinese communist party, arguing they could “very arguably do more to blunt the CPC’s advance than the [B-2 Spirit Bomber] airplane could.”

These are some of the pro-US, anti-Chinese government figures who lead the Network of Chinese Human Rights Defenders.

Otherwise, there is very little publicly available information about CHRD. It appears to largely be the brainchild of its international director, Renee Xia, an opposition activist who has publicly called for the US government to impose sanctions on Chinese officials under the Magnitsky Act.

Support for the “non violence advocate” who loves America’s wars

CHRD’s founder, Xia, was a strong supporter of the imprisoned hard-right neoconservative Chinese dissident Liu Xiaobo, and she campaigned years for his release.

An archived version of the group’s website shows that as far back as 2010, CHRD was vociferously advocating on behalf of Liu, while likening the Chinese government to Nazi Germany.

While Liu Xiaobo became a cause celebre of the Western liberal intelligentsia, he was a staunch supporter of colonialism, a fan of the most blood-soaked US military campaigns, and a hardcore libertarian.

As writers Barry Sautman and Yan Hairong reported in The Guardian in 2010, Liu led numerous US government-funded right-wing organizations that advocated mass privatization and the Westernization of China. He also expressed openly racist views against the Chinese. “To choose Westernisation is to choose to be human,” Liu insisted, lamenting that traditional Chinese culture had made its population “wimpy, spineless, and fucked up.”

While CHRD described Liu as an “advocate of non-violence,” he practically worshipped President George W. Bush and strongly supported the illegal US-led invasion of Iraq, as well as the war in Afghanistan. “Non-violence advocate” Liu was even a fan of America’s wars in Korea and Vietnam, which killed millions of civilians.

CHRD’s most recent China report — the one cited by Reuters and other outlets to give credence to the allegations of Uyghur re-education camps — further highlights the organization’s links to Washington and compromised impartiality.

Most sources on the Uighur “camps” story are US government-linked

The most-cited source in the CHRD report, accounting for more than one-fifth of the 101 references, is Radio Free Asia (RFA), a news agency created by the US government. Along with Voice of America, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, Radio y Televisión Martí, and Middle East Broadcasting Networks, Radio Free Asia is operated by the Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG), a federal agency of the US government under the supervision of the State Department. Describing its work as “vital to U.S. national interests,” BBG’s primary broadcasting standard is to be “consistent with the broad foreign policy objectives of the United States.”

The near-total reliance on Washington-linked sources is characteristic of Western reporting on Uighurs Muslims in China, and the country in general, which regularly features sensational headlines and allegations. In addition to CHRD and RFA, it is common for reports to cite the World Uighur Congress, an organization funded by the NED. At a recent NED event, Grayzone editor Max Blumenthal interviewed World Uighur Congress chairman Omer Kanat, who took credit for furnishing many of the claims of internment camps to Western media.

Another favourite congressional and mainstream media source for information about China is the Jamestown Foundation, a neoconservative think tank founded during the height of the Cold War by Reagan administration personnel with the support of then-CIA Director William J. Casey.  Former Jamestown board members include Dick Cheney and Zbigniew Brzezinski.

The latest incident of misreporting by Reuters is part of a trend of increasingly hostile, Cold War-like coverage of China by the Western press that coincides with Washington’s push for conflict with Beijing. In a series of policy statements, the Trump administration has repeatedly identified the “threat” posed by “economic and military ascendance” of China, with Defense Secretary James Mattis declaring that “Great Power competition, not terrorism, is now the primary focus of U.S. national security.”

Growing anxious about its diminishing global dominance, the United States seeks to forestall the rise of of an alternative node of international power. A longstanding component of US imperialism is the use of ostensibly impartial “civil society groups” and “think tanks” to promote narratives in the media supportive of US foreign policy goals. Often under the guise of “humanitarian concern,” such stories aim to stir up public outrage and weaponize it to advance imperial ambitions.

This time-tested program is at the heart of the intensifying campaign against China, and as the latest raft of bogus stories demonstrated, the corporate media is eager to play along.


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Antonym
Antonym
Nov 15, 2018 3:35 AM
白矛
白矛
Nov 10, 2018 7:15 AM

Read behind the propaganda – does China need to be watchful over it’s borders? You betchya: https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/09/26/from-idlib-to-xinjiang-uyghur-fighters-trained-for-terror/

白矛
白矛
Nov 10, 2018 6:56 AM

For a little more perspective on this: https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/09/26/from-idlib-to-xinjiang-uyghur-fighters-trained-for-terror/ (Forgive me if anyone;’s already highlighted this)

Antonym
Antonym
Nov 8, 2018 3:03 AM

Do you hear the deafening silence on Xinjiang? Compare this to the hullaballoo around Palestine: David vs Goliath.

Nothing from the Muslim side..
Nothing from the Western Left, worse, denial.

Biased hypocrites the lot.

Antonym
Antonym
Nov 8, 2018 2:51 AM

How about simply taking a step back: who can freely visit Xinjang?
Nobody, except trusted Chinese.
Is this a good sign?
No, something is hidden.

白矛
白矛
Nov 10, 2018 7:03 AM
Reply to  Antonym

You don’t need permission to visit Xinjiang province. Period. (I’m an ex-Brit living in China) Further on the subject of permission.. Who can freely visit anywhere without visas and permission?

jdromero
jdromero
Nov 8, 2018 1:20 AM

While it’s clear that media manipulated the topic once more and I think it’s great job that Off-Guardian does in debunking fake news – I believe one should concede that situation in this China’s autonomous region is really very, _very_ alarming. There’s a good report of a (as it _seems_ from the article, Russian) journalist, who’s name is concealed for, as article states, security reasons – who, according to himself – travelled to the region once again after not having visited it for 15 years. It’s published on the website called Meduza – hardly an unbiased media – but one producing quality content from time to time. Meduza website’s stuff are basically the stuff composed from ex-Lenta.ru journalists who left it after it was reorganized due to change of owners and its editorial policy (there’s a little sum-up on who they are in English section of the website). The link… Read more »

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 4:35 AM

Anyhow, it appears we are entering into the realms of the fantastically theological regime change artists; how many Uighurs can dance on the head of a pin.

So I’ll wish you all a good night, with a vaguely remembered Shel Silverstein (?) limerick apropos of nothing:

A lesbian named Bloom
Wishing a relationship beyond the normal
Married Percival; a transsexual
But all their wedding night
Instead of engaging in carnal delight;
Argued who’d do what,
with whom,
and with what part 🙂

edited by Admin at author’s request

Ralph Musgrave
Ralph Musgrave
Sep 21, 2018 9:27 AM
Reply to  manfromatlan

That doesn’t scan very well. I think this is better.

There was a puff from Khartoum
Who took a Lesbian up to his room.
As they lay on the bed,
One of them said:
“Who does what, with what to whom?”

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 9:58 AM
Reply to  Ralph Musgrave

I was scanning my memory for the original limerick; seemed to remember something similar by Shel Silverstein in Playboy magazine in the 70’s; improvised.

Though (you) are being fanatically theological
or, analytically intellectual;
but I’ll vote for persnicketally anal

is all my own invention, Ralph.

And your version (author?) would be
‘Chinee’ Gordon and the Mahdi in Khartoum? 🙂

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 2:09 AM

Link to the UNHRHC report. It confirms the Norton and Singh lede

Media outlets from Reuters to The Intercept falsely claimed the UN had condemned China for holding a million Uighurs in camps. The claim is based on unsourced allegations by two independent commission members, US-funded outfits and a shadowy opposition group

https://tbinternet.ohchr.org/_layouts/treatybodyexternal/Download.aspx?symbolno=CERD%2fC%2fCHN%2fCO%2f14-17&Lang=en
I don’t see where the UNHRHC “condemns” China, do you? In fact it says 38.The Committee, while noting that, according to the State party, the reports are false.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 2:26 AM
Reply to  manfromatlan

Did you read section 42? Probably not, eh? Because if you had, you would have noticed that the document you link to actually disproves what you claim it confirms.

As for the State party denying the allegations against it, this is somehow “proof” of its innocence?

But I guess that it’s true, that fools do rush in . . .

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 2:28 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Correction: I mean’t to ask: “Did you read sections 40 through to 42?”

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 3:26 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

I already linked to the source document, so it follows I read ALL of it so I could safely say “it confirms Norton and Singh’s lede”?

Anyhow, not going to argue with the false debater who asks China to prove a negative, it was for the other readers of this blog to see for themselves https://tbinternet.ohchr.org/_layouts/treatybodyexternal/Download.aspx?symbolno=CERD%2fC%2fCHN%2fCO%2f14-17&Lang=en

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 3:31 AM
Reply to  manfromatlan

Yes, you are correct, other readers of this blog will indeed be able to see for themselves. But thank you for your contribution to the discussion. It has been duly noted.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 1:16 AM

To dispense once and for all with the bogus claim by Norton and Singh that the “extraordinary claim” that “as many as 1 million Uighur Muslims [may be] in “internment camps” is the being made by Gay McDougall, and only Gay McDougall, the sole American on the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, I quote from from the Committee’s “concluding observations,” which is the Committee’s final and official retort to the latest obligatory report submitted to it by China: Quote begins: Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region The Committee notes the statements delivered by the State party delegation concerning the non-discriminatory enjoyment of freedoms and rights in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region. The Committee is, however, alarmed by: (a) Numerous reports of the detention of large numbers of ethnic Uighurs and other Muslim minorities, held incommunicado and often for long periods, without being charged or tried, under the pretext of… Read more »

Paul X
Paul X
Sep 21, 2018 1:23 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Did you hear what they were up to in Idlip? How does the re-education programme compare to Britain’s “Prevent” programme that has seen teachers reporting under 10’s to local police for possible terrorist tendencies? Do you think jihadis should be deterred or encouraged?

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 3:02 AM
Reply to  Paul X

What does Idlib have to do with the point at issue, Paul X? Be nice, and make an effort to clarify the connection for me.

Paul X
Paul X
Sep 21, 2018 10:07 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Only to point out that Chinese Muslims do include jihadi elements that seem to be ignored when discussing the issue. China is doing what every other country does to prevent terrorist attacks. Some 6000 Chinese fighters are in Idlip occupying their own town in the South. They are hard line and said to be more extreme than other groups. The griping about China’s ‘re-education’ policy ignores similar attempts even here in the UK (Prevent). The issue is being used simply to knock China .

Fair View
Fair View
Apr 1, 2020 12:53 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Absolutely everything.

“Syria’s ambassador in Beijing, Imad Moustapha, declared up to 5,000 ethnic Uyghurs from China were in Syria fighting alongside armed jihadists as of May 2017. For anyone who has actually followed real reporting on the ground in Syria, you would know that Uyghurs are among the most violent of all the various fighting groups in Syria. The mere fact that they are alongside Jabhat al Nusra is telling, as they are considered to be the most feared terrorists in the field.”

By 21WIRE Special Contributor Steven Sahiounie is an American citizen born in Fresno, California. He has been living permanently in Latakia, Syria, which was his father’s original hometown. Steven is a freelance journalist specialising in Syrian affairs, and a university student studying English Literature.

https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/09/26/from-idlib-to-xinjiang-uyghur-fighters-trained-for-terror/

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 1:58 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

From your reference: CERD/C/CHN/CO/14-17 “37. The Committee recommends that the State party review its existing relevant laws, regulations and practices in order to ensure that they are narrowly tailored, that there are effective monitoring mechanisms and sufficient safeguards against abuse, and that they are implemented in a manner that does not constitute profiling or discrimination on the grounds of race, colour, descent, nationality, ethnicity or ethno-religious identity. The Committee requests the State party to provide in its next periodic report statistics, disaggregated by ethnicity, on prosecutions, convictions, sentences and other sanctions for crimes relating to terrorism, separatism and extremism. Torture and ill-treatment 38. The Committee, while noting that, according to the State party, the reports are false, is concerned by reports according to which certain Tibetans, Uighurs and other ethnic minorities, peaceful political protestors and human rights defenders have been tortured or otherwise subjected to ill-treatment. It is also concerned… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 3:00 AM
Reply to  manfromatlan

Um . . . your point is . . .?

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 3:17 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

a) You’re the one who “can’t read”, Norm.
b) You’re the “fool”, Norm.

Fair View
Fair View
Apr 1, 2020 1:04 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

The point is there is no evidence that one million Uighurs are detained as claimed by western media, the UN report certainly does not say that because the the Chinese government is not forthcoming and there is no UN investigation to verify it either way.

Other allegations or ‘reports’ are unfounded, we don’t know who made those reports or if they even exist. Please be reminded that Guantanmo Bay Detention Facility where US detain Muslims that are NOT even US citizens is still in operation and torture in that facility is well documented.

Jen
Jen
Sep 21, 2018 2:27 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

There is nothing in the Committee’s report stating that it as a collective agrees with Gay McDougall’s claim that China was interning up to 1 million Uyghur Muslims and the report itself makes no reference to those particular reports (which McDougall says are credible) on which the Committee based its recommendations.

The report does not even define what it means by “numerous” reports or what is meant by “reports”. For all we know, unless these “reports” are produced, they could be hearsay or repetitions by media outlets of the one original report, whatever that one is.

The only one insisting on the proven journalistic integrity of Ben Norton and his like is the one who continues to troll Off-Guardian with hair-splitting cynicism and faux internationalist nihilism.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 2:56 AM
Reply to  Jen

Dear Jen, Do you know how to read? Let me simplify the quote for you so that you don’t miss the relevant and incontrovertible bits: Quote Begins: The Committee is, however, alarmed by: {Norm’s note: that’s “the Committee as a whole, Jen, not McDougall as an isolated outlier on the Committee.] [. . .] Numerous reports of the detention of large numbers of ethnic Uighurs and other Muslim minorities [my emphasis], held incommunicado and often for long periods, without being charged or tried, under the pretext of countering religious extremism. [. . .] Estimates of the number of people detained range from tens of thousands to over a million. [my emphasis] Quote Ends. Question: given that I am quoting the Concluding observations on the combined fourteenth to seventeenth periodic reports of China (including Hong Kong, China and Macao, China), “[a]dopted by the Committee at its ninety-sixth session (6–30 August 2018),”… Read more »

Jen
Jen
Sep 21, 2018 4:13 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Dear Norman,

I know how to read. The Committee makes references to estimates of the numbers of people being held as ranging from tens of thousands to over a million but that’s not the same as saying the Committee agrees with one of its number saying that the Chinese were definitely detaining up to 1 million people.

In other words, the Committee has not committed to a definite figure.

Perhaps the question should be whether a troll knows how far to carry on without shooting himself / herself down in flames with trolling behaviour and attitude.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 5:36 AM
Reply to  Jen

Dear Jen, Sorry about the attitude. Sorry about the trollilng. I call it being dedicated to the truth. I note that you do not answer my question: is it McDougall or the Committee who is making the allegation, and making it official? Regardless of what the definite numbers may be, the Committee as a whole — not merely and only McDougall, as Norton and Singh allege, spinning a significant part of their article to “establishing” that very allegation — raises alarm about “[n]umerous reports of the detention of large numbers of ethnic Uighurs and other Muslim minorities.” And that’s my point, isn’t it? You know, the thing that you keep avoiding and skirting around. Norton and Singh write: Quote begins: “What’s more, a look at the OHCHR’s official news release on the committee’s presentation of the report showed that the only mention of alleged re-education “camps” in China was made… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 6:01 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

And, why, I wonder, would Norton and Singh take notice of the fact that McDougall — the only Committee member making “that” remarkable claim — was “echoed” by a Mauritanian member, one who goes by the name “Yemhelhe Mint Mohamed?”

Slipped in there for good measure, maybe? One sole American, echoed by only one other among the others, with a muslim sounding name.

You can’t make this shit up, can you?

Jen
Jen
Sep 21, 2018 6:08 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

The Committee’s report expresses the Committee’s concerns and recommendations but the Committee itself stops short of supporting Gay McDougall’s statement that up to one million Uyghur people have been detained in camps by the Chinese government. The recommendations call on the Chinese government to provide the number of people held in all extralegal detention camps in Xinjiang Autonomous Region over the last five years.

That’s my refuge as compared to the troll’s refuge in deliberate obfuscations designed to trap readers in endless and specious arguments over language and whether absence of evidence in this context can equate to evidence of absence.

You can abuse me and others all you like – we’ll just keep leaning over the edge of the abyss to watch you drown in your own banalities.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 8:37 AM
Reply to  Jen

You write: “The Committee’s report expresses the Committee’s concerns and recommendations but the Committee itself stops short of supporting Gay McDougall’s statement that up to one million Uyghur people have been detained in camps by the Chinese government. ” False. Completely false. In the video that I’ve posted in this comment section, McDougall says (@ 1 minute 2 sec.): “there are estimates of up to 1 million people…” The committee states: “Estimates of the number of people detained range from tens of thousands to over a million.” You say, “the Committee itself stops short of supporting Gay McDougall’s statement that up to one million Uyghur people have been detained in camps by the Chinese government.” But McDougall doesn’t say that, does she? She doesn’t categorically affirm the one million, as though it wasn’t an “estimate.” Furthermore, and in fact . . . IN POINT OF FACT . . . the… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 24, 2018 8:55 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

In my reply to Jen, HERE, the paragraph that begins with, “Now you can twist and deflect all you want . . .”, should read as:

“Now you can twist and deflect all you want, but this document [“DISPROVES”] that Norton’s and Singh’s claim that only a lone American voice on the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, a Committee of 18, was the only person making the claim that they said was both “extraordinary” and “simply false.”

If WordPress had an edit function available to readers, I could have made that edit. Unfortunately . . .

Johny Conspiranoid
Johny Conspiranoid
Sep 20, 2018 3:26 PM

No official memeber of any committee speaks for that committee unles the commitee nominates them to do so and agrees on what they should say. The use of “we” does not show that such a process has happened. Has the committee issued an official report and what does it say? To say there are credible reports is not the same as saying there are proven reports. Some due process must be required for the official report of this committee to be accepted as the position of the UN. Has that process happened?

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2018 7:03 PM

“To say there are credible reports is not the same as saying there are proven reports.”

Yes, that is exactly right.

But what do Norton and Singh contend?

They contend, without having seen the alleged “numerous and credible reports,” that the substance of those reports, summarized in McDougall’s statement and that makes for an “extraordinary claim,” “is simply not true.

How do they know that the “extraordinary claim is simply not true?”

Have they examined the specific bases of the specific details of that claim?

Or have they, precisely in the manner of the mainstream media, manipulated words and context to make what is essentially a baseless case?

In my opinion, Eric Blair, who comments below, has it exactly right: “They are playing the same devious game as the mainstream media and the right-wing groups they claim to oppose.”

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2018 7:52 PM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

And btw: if they are playing the same devious game, what would that game be? I mean apart from manipulating words and contexts? Let us assume, for the sake of simplicity, that in the world in which we live, the main lines of enmity and struggle are between three essential groupings: there are capitalist factions that are at enmity with each other, a level of rivalry that at a minimum presupposes two blocs (but there may be more and, of course, in reality, there are a great many). That would be two of the three essential groupings. Then there are all of the contending capitalist factions on one side, and the thing for which they contend on the other, the people who are their wage slaves, the third essential group of the three groupings One obvious way of keeping a lid on your wage slaves is to convince them that… Read more »

Fair dinkum
Fair dinkum
Sep 20, 2018 1:03 AM

When it comes to prisons and suppression, the US and for that matter Australia, are at the top of the leader board.
Divide and rule, along with avarice and fear, are what drives the ruling psychopaths of those ‘holier than thou’ plutocracies.

kevin morris
kevin morris
Sep 19, 2018 10:44 PM

I do despair over the left’s determination to accommodate China. Whether or not Uighurs are subjected to re-education camps, life in the main cities is increasingly unpleasant with Uighur families subjected to notices on their flat doors stating how many people live inside and whether or not the family is trustworthy or not. Recently, the Communist Party announced the rolling out of plans to produce such status reports for every person living in China, which of course begs the question what will happen to those whose status is deemed to be ‘unreliable’. China has the highest rate of executions in the world, almost no legal protections, almost no civil society, massive corruption amongst party officials, often leading to innocent parties either being jailed or executed. That fact alone should cause us to ask, what gives the Chinese Communist Party which puts itself before everyone and everything else the right to… Read more »

bevin
bevin
Sep 19, 2018 11:41 PM
Reply to  kevin morris

The question is not what goes in in China but whether imperialist propaganda, trade sanctions, terrorist militias and outright warfare will assist in solving the internal problems of that enormous country. You appear to be arguing that we should support launching adventures down that road. My own view is that we should not. I think that it is disingenuous not to put the storm of anti-China propaganda into perspective. Those who still dream of turning the power of the US military into global hegemony regard China as the biggest single obstacle to their ambitions. They are therefore churning out propaganda against China in order to prepare public opinion for future war. What this post does is to put the widely publicised ‘news’ that China has been setting up Concentration Camps in Sinkiang unto perspective by pointing out that, in fact, and, obviously to your surprise, there are, so fart as… Read more »

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Sep 19, 2018 11:57 PM
Reply to  kevin morris

Mendacious, racist, Orientalist, Sinophobe tripe. Western racists are personally affronted, to the point of rabidity, by the prospect of a non-Western, non-‘JudeoChristian’ power rising to world eminence. Not dominance, of course-the Chinese refuse that genocidal Western habit. Obviously a pro-Dalai claque fool, who thinks that providing education, health and modern amenities, liberating women and ending vicious theocratic rule and serfdom in Tibet are signs of ‘repression’. Despicable.

nwwoods
nwwoods
Sep 19, 2018 7:05 PM

Mehdi Hasan published an article at The Intercept a while back implying that his readers are Assad apologists.
That said, it appears that the US is waging a disinformation campaign against China much as it has been against Russia, to state the obvious.

mohandeer
mohandeer
Sep 20, 2018 3:07 PM
Reply to  nwwoods

@nwwoods. Why would you give any credence to Prof. Dr. Hasan? He’s won a great many accolades but his socialist opeds are nearly always focussed on countries the US and UK want to have a go at. He is published in the US(which takes some doing unless you stay well clear of condemning the US as the worst offenders) and Pakistan and has slots in Voice of America(without damning Washington all to hell), the BBC which is the voice of the evil axis, not to mention the specials he does for AP, Deutsche Welle and Reuters(now isn’t that a surprise)and I believe he is a columnist at the English Daily(The News International). Any condemnation for the murderous west’s wars against the countries he is denouncing is usually lip service only and one liners we could all quote with crocodile tears. He definitely knows which side his bread is buttered. He… Read more »

Johny Conspiranoid
Johny Conspiranoid
Sep 19, 2018 6:25 PM

The subject of the article is the accuracy of Reuters’ and others reporting that the UN said that China had massive internment camps for Uighur Muslims. They are saying that the UN made no such claim. The person making the claim was the co-rapporteur for the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. She claimed to have heard off credible reports of the existance of these camps and brought the matter up durring a meeting of the committee. So, is her bringing up the matter that she has heard reports of something in the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination the same thing as her making a definite statement that the reports are true on behalf of the whole UN? Then there is the question of the accuracy of the reports and the credibility of the sources which is seperate from the accuracy of what Reuters said… Read more »

nwwoods
nwwoods
Sep 19, 2018 7:11 PM

“So, is her bringing up the matter that she has heard reports of something in the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination the same thing as her making a definite statement that the reports are true on behalf of the whole UN?”

I have been hearing rumours that you’ve been diddling kindergarten kids. Now, I acknowledge that I have been unable to confirm this, but it would be a very serious matter indeed, if true, and certainly bears further scrutiny.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 19, 2018 9:24 PM
Reply to  nwwoods

The Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination review of the report of China, as it is posted on the website of the United Nations Human Rights Office of the High Commissioner, states unequivocally: “GAY MCDOUGALL, Committee Co-Rapporteur for China, raised concern about the numerous and credible reports. . .” The review doe not state that the Committee Co-Rapporteur for China “claims to have heard about numerous and credible reports,” the existence of which have yet to be established, but that she raised concerns about “the numerous and credible reports,” i.e., about reports with which, as the wording clearly conveys, the Committee as a whole is already conversant. Thus, although the the published review of the report of China doesn’t include references to “the numerous and credible reports” themselves, it is clear that the Committee does not question the existence of “the numerous and credible reports,” and, therefore, that the… Read more »

Thomas Peterson
Thomas Peterson
Sep 20, 2018 8:01 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Great, where are the ‘reports’ and who produced them? Let’s see for ourselves.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2018 1:54 PM

I entirely agree. One thing we can be certain of, however, is that Norton and Singh have not seen them anymore than you and I have, and therefore have not, as they claim they have, shown “the extraordinary claim” to be “simply untrue.”

As for discrediting McDougall, that’s just grasping at straws and self-discrediting.

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 3:42 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

When we see extraordinary claims sourced by NGO’s, we require a reasonable standard of evidence. Otherwise, you could apply the same standards to “hundreds of thousands of Muslim girls undergo FGM” and “thousands of gays are executed in Iran” then hold up respective governments failure to keep data on such ephemera as proof of something and allow anti-democratic Western NGO’s to slip in unverifiable allegations.

Sorry, but you been busted, Norman.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 4:34 AM
Reply to  manfromatlan

Who has been discussing NGOs? Are you sure you are addressing your comment to the right person? But okay, I’ll assume you are directing your comment at me. Have you seen the “numerous and credible reports” alleged by the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination? If you have, can you post them or link to them so that we can examine them for both their content and their references and/or sources? Which NGOs are, as you allege, the sources of the “numerous and credible reports” with which the UN Committee claims to be familiar and on which it bases its “concern?” Do you think that I uncritically accept the substance of alleged “numerous and credible reports” without either having access to them or knowing from where these reports are being sourced? Is there a difference between a) claiming that McDougall is the only person on the Committee on the… Read more »

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 4:43 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

See my previous posted limerick; are being fanatically theological
or, analytically intellectual;
but I’ll vote for persnicketally anal

To answer your question, the article infers the sources are on the same street address as Human Rights Watch, enuf said 🙂

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 6:03 AM
Reply to  manfromatlan

You do limericks? I don’t read them, sorry.

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 10:11 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

You seem not to read the article either but indulge in ipso facto arguments, that if Norton slandered Karadjis (actually, no, since we have to accept your contextual argument as proven) then it follows that Norton slandered MacDougall, LOL.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 1:14 PM
Reply to  manfromatlan

Right. You did read this comment, I presume. If you can’t see the glaring difference what Norton claims Kradjis to have said and what Karadjis actually did say, you need the category spectacles inside your head examined. LOL

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 2:46 PM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

I did read Norton’s whole article https://bennorton.com/michael-karadjis-syrian-al-qaeda-jabhat-al-nusra/ thanks, and not the excerpt you ‘contextualized’ as well as the other Michael P. Karadjis articles he helpfully (and honestly) linked to, so Norton wins the argument when he writes Leftist’ Syria regime change brigade Michael Karadjis is by no means the only so-called leftist supporter of Syrian rebels who has said positive things about Jabhat al-Nusra. He joins other prominent figures of the “socialist” Syria regime change brigade. Even more obsessive blogger Louis Proyect, who writes under the name “The Unrepentant Marxist,” has likewise expressed support for Syrian al-Qaeda. Louis Proyect is a serial liar with extremely deranged behavior who has written numerous falsehoods and smears about me (and who photoshopped my head onto a cockroach). Michael Kardjis and Louis Proyect are just two parts of the group. Other “leftist” Syria regime change figures include: •Muhammad Idrees Ahmad (or Idrees Ahmad), who… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 7:17 PM
Reply to  manfromatlan

So by quoting only Norton’s slanderous claptrap, rather than doing a careful comparison and contrast between what Norton claims others are arguing and what those others actually are arguing, you’ve demonstrated Norton’s integrity in matters of interpretation and analysis? In that case, you are a lot more insightful than I am, Mr. manfromataln, in being able to judge the quality of a piece of writing by simply taking it at face value without doing the work of following up on its references in detail and ensuring that you’ve grasped the content of those references. Furthermore, let’s suppose that had you had actually taken the time to do your due diligence, and had actually went and read, say, Corey Oakley, but not only read him, but actually understood him, and you then came back yet giving high marks to Norton’s pieced, I myself, if no one else, would know that you… Read more »

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 9:06 PM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

If there’s anything more boring than arguing with a Marxist-Leninist-Trotskyite’s dialectical analysis as to ‘who slandered whom with what’ (since you didn’t read my limerickal effort putting you down last night 🙂 it would be poring over some Marxist-Leninist-Trotskyite’s turgid prose to contextualise side by side exegesis texts to see who’s credible or not.

In the real world, we determine what country, nation or economic model we favour without wasting a lot of time, thanks. So cater to your buddies who seem to lurk on the internet slandering Ben Norton. Sorry, but you haven’t proved your case and no amount of saddo discussion videos can disprove you’ve been sussed out as pseudo-left Russophobes and Sinophobes who disapprove those countries because they haven’t reached that state of Marxist Utopia yet.

Now excuse me while I put you on “ignore”.

Jen
Jen
Sep 21, 2018 11:40 PM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

@ ManfromAtlan: Thanks for taking on the troll and his circular arguments and belligerent and sarcastic attitude.

Other readers may think we were wasting our time and valuable Off-Guardian space here churning through his rubbish but at least now we know how he works and how rapidly he becomes unpleasant and abusive in shooting down not just Ben Norton (for exposing Karadjis and other faux “leftist” writers) but also in attacking you, me and others personally.

Shooting the messenger is still the first resort of scoundrels.

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 22, 2018 12:55 AM
Reply to  Jen

You’re welcome, Jen. He’s welcome to his mendacious opinions but not his er, “facts”. There are many leftists I do respect, and there’s the sort of pseudo leftist drivel that seems to emanate from Australia oddly enough (Michael Karadjis). The anti-Julian Assange crowd, the Vanessa Beeley/Eva Bartlett haters, then there’s the Syrian regime change artists who post threats against them, and the security services sponsored ‘Imam of Peace’.

WSWS had the pseudo left crowd pegged perfectly.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 22, 2018 12:55 AM
Reply to  Jen

Please, Jen, enough with the personal abuse. It makes you look quite frantic, not to say rather ugly. You know, and I know, that I spoke very precisely to the substance of Norton’s journalistic modus operandi, and showed it to be what it is, in both its mendacity and maliciousness, in its unwarranted manipulation of words and context. Nothing is easier than reading Norton, noting his attributions to and interpretations of other authors, and checking on them. There is a pattern: it’s in the same vein that I have here demonstrated. You had and have nothing to counter the truth and fact of that matter as I have exposed it, and now you resort to slinging personal insults, to shooting the messenger, by behaving in precisely the way that you attribute to me and of which from the top of your mountain of principles you apparently strongly disapprove. But Jen,… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 19, 2018 4:47 PM

Well, okay, let’s have one look at one reference. Norton and Singh write: What’s more, a look at the OHCHR’s official news release on the committee’s presentation of the report showed that the only mention of alleged re-education “camps” in China was made by its sole American member, Gay McDougall. This claim was then echoed by a Mauritanian member, Yemhelhe Mint Mohamed. Now let’s read the section in which the only mention of alleged re-education “camps” in China was made by the sole American member of the UN’s “Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination,” the Committee Co-Rapporteur for China: GAY MCDOUGALL, Committee Co-Rapporteur for China, raised concern about the numerous and credible reports that in the name of combatting “religious extremism” and maintaining “social stability”, the State party had turned the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region into something that resembled a massive internment camp shrouded in secrecy, a “no rights… Read more »

Jen
Jen
Sep 20, 2018 1:00 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

The Ben Norton and Ajit Singh article begins as thus: Numerous major media outlets, from Reuters to The Intercept, have claimed that the United Nations has reports that the Chinese government is holding as many as 1 million Uighur Muslims in “internment camps.” But a close examination of these news stories, and of the evidence behind them — or the lack thereof — demonstrates that the extraordinary claim is simply not true … What the authors say is not true is the claim made by media is that the UN has these reports. The authors then go on to say that the claim about 1 million Uyghur Muslims being held in the camps was made by an “independent expert” who sits on the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, a panel that does not speak for the UN and whose opinions are presumably not endorsed by the UN… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2018 5:20 AM
Reply to  Jen

You write: “The authors then go on to say that the claim about 1 million Uyghur Muslims being held in the camps was made by an “independent expert” who sits on the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, a panel that does not speak for the UN and whose opinions are presumably not endorsed by the UN itself.” FIRSTLY: to address the Norton and Singh claim that the UN allegation at hand was essentially made by only one committee member, and an American at that: They write: “What’s more, a look at the OHCHR’s official news release on the committee’s presentation of the report showed that the only mention of alleged re-education “camps” in China was made by its sole American member, Gay McDougall. This claim was then echoed by a Mauritanian member, Yemhelhe Mint Mohamed.” Translation: McDougall is the only member of the committee that makes the… Read more »

Jen
Jen
Sep 20, 2018 7:40 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

I listened to Gay McDougall’s speech. When she says “we …”, she is referring to herself and other members on the Committee but there is nothing in the context of her speech that she is speaking for the Committee as a collective. One could say that she is speaking for herself and the other Committee members as individuals. If they have all received the same reports that she believes are credible, then she can hardly say “I” when all Committee members have received the same reports. And what are these reports? She does not say what the reports are: they could be reports by the very media organisations that claim that the Committee “has”, in the sense of possessing, “credible” reports.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2018 1:47 PM
Reply to  Jen

“there is nothing in the context of her speech that she is speaking for the Committee as a collective.” The “we” part of McDougall’s speech and that she is speaking in her capacity as the Committee Co-Rapporteur for China as the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination publicly delivers its review of the obligatory report of China should give you the necessary cues, Jen, that and that McDougall appears to be reading from a ‘prepared’ statement. “And what are these reports? She does not say what the reports are: they could be reports by the very media organisations that claim that the Committee “has”, in the sense of possessing, “credible” reports.” Yup. And the point of your speculation is what exactly, in terms of a substantive rebuttal to the fact that the UN has declared that it has such credible reports? Until you see their reports and how they… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 21, 2018 2:16 AM
Reply to  Jen

Dear Jen,

Read THIS, in particular sections 40 & 42, PP. 7-8 in the ‘doc’ format, and then come back and tell me whether, as Norton and Singh insist, it is only McDougall who is concerned about the “numerous and credible reports” about “ethnic Uighurs and other Muslim minorities” being ‘interned,’ and that she therefore only speaks for herself, as a minority of one and as the only American on the Committee, or whether it is the whole Committee — a total of 18 independent experts from various nations — that is officially registering its concern about many credible reports of arbitrary mass detentions, reports that it, as a whole, alleges.

Antonyl
Antonyl
Sep 19, 2018 3:50 PM

So how many Uighurs are interned in China? Over 120,000? Half a million? Imagine the uproar in Western MSM AND blogs if Israel or India did like wise with local Muslims! Instead silence.

Again might is right, whether during Islam imperialism, US imperialism or Chinese imperialism.

bevin
bevin
Sep 19, 2018 4:40 PM
Reply to  Antonyl

“So how many Uighurs are interned in China? Over 120,000? Half a million? ..” “None” perhaps? Or ‘all of them’ in the sense that all Scots are kept without their consent, interned, in the UK. Or a couple of million, including a majority of men at one stage in their lives, as is the case of black people in the United States. A deliberate attempt to falsify the record has been made. This happens with alarming frequency in the United States which has made similar charges against almost every one of the increasing number of states refusing to follow its diktats- Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Haiti, Yemen, etc- it is normally used to soften up public opinion before military attacks, direct or through mercenaries, on the objects of its ire and the victims of its lies. Given that those urging us to join them in shedding crocodile tears… Read more »

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Sep 20, 2018 12:04 AM
Reply to  Antonyl

You Zionazis REALLY do hate and fear China, in your habitual racist contempt for all those who do not bow and grovel before you. When China has MURDERED several million Moslems, as Israel’s puppet the USA has done in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Yemen, etc, directly through military aggression, or vicious, deliberately murderous, sanctions, all on Zionazi orders, then perhaps a monumental hypocrite like you might have some reason to condemn it. Until then I suggest you keep quiet.

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 1:29 AM
Reply to  Antonyl

The “Caliphate connected Uighurs” are, and long may they rot in Chinese prisons http://katehon.com/1227-cia-and-turks-created-caliphate-to-launch-attacks-on-russia-and-china.html

CIA and Turks created caliphate to launch attacks on Russia and China
There are entire communities of Chechens and Uighurs now living in cities and towns in Syria and Iraq occupied by the forces of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL).

manfromatlan
manfromatlan
Sep 21, 2018 9:23 PM
Reply to  Antonyl

The resident hasbara troll asks us to imagine “the uproar in blogs if Israel did like wise with local Muslims!” while ignoring the fact that Gaza is the world’s largest internment camp at just under 2 million.

rtj1211
rtj1211
Sep 19, 2018 3:47 PM

The usual lack of due diligence by the gossip organisations.

UN report needed due dili by Reuters.

Reuters needed due dili by everyone else.

Credibility and authority take another huge hit….

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 19, 2018 3:39 PM

A bunch of liars on one side, and a bunch of liars on the other. All of the liars are sourcing from all of the other liars, and accusing each other of being liars in real time. Recently, someone who wanted to discredit someone had me read a piece by Ben Norton. In that piece, Ben Norton wrote: “Karadjis, who has declared that Syrian al-Qaeda shooting down Russian planes would be “a victory for all humanity,” is part of a small yet obsessive crew of so-called leftists who viciously attack anti-war socialists.” Now compare that with what Karadjis actually declared, and I quote somewhat at length to contextualize the upshot of Karadjis’ remark: The other main issue often arising in discussion is that of which rebel groups control the various parts of Aleppo now under attack. For many Rojava-Firsters, this is a good excuse to support this counterrevolutionary action: “Oh,… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 19, 2018 3:40 PM
Reply to  Norman Pilon
Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain
Sep 20, 2018 12:06 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

‘Free Aleppo’-the jihadist hell-hole.

Eric Blair
Eric Blair
Sep 20, 2018 6:24 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

Go get em’ Norman. Nice work debunking the bogus claims of Norton and friends. Their manipulation of words and context to suit their own rather mysterious grey agenda is bared for all to see. They are playing the same devious game as the mainstream media and the right-wing groups they claim to oppose.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
Sep 20, 2018 1:55 PM
Reply to  Eric Blair

“They are playing the same devious game as the mainstream media and the right-wing groups they claim to oppose”

Quite!

Michael Cromer
Michael Cromer
Sep 19, 2018 2:08 PM

People should embrace the opportunity to be educated free of charge – Lucky them!

Paul X
Paul X
Sep 19, 2018 1:30 PM

How does the Chinese re-education scheme compare with our Prevent strategy? I thought it was agreed that radicalisation of Muslims is a real danger? As soon as the first (of many!) articles in the Guardian appeared about the ‘dreadful repression of peace loving Salafists’ it was clear this was a new propaganda front. Notice how the references to the Chinese Jihadi fighters in Idlip, where they occupy a town of their own is never mentioned although there are some 6000 of them heavily armed. They are said to be the most fanatical of all the Headchoppers and scare the Turks let alone the Syrians.