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People’s Vote: Corbyn Signs His Own Death Warrant

Kit Knightly

Throughout his leadership of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn has disappointed some of his most ardent admirers by his refusal to hang tough. Yes, he has played many situations with canniness and subtlety, but too often he has been soft, appeased and conciliated where it is either unnecessary, or worse, entirely counter productive.

Too often he vows to “listen” to the problems of dissenting New Labour MPs, instead of asserting his authority. Too many times he has promised to “tackle antisemitism”, instead of bluntly telling everyone – “Labour is NOT antisemitic, this is a smear campaign”.

Corbyn should know by now that he can’t win by playing their game by their rules. You can’t appease people who do not want to be appeased. You can’t clean up a smear campaign, and trying just spreads the smears further.

However, none of his previous mistakes compare to the kamikaze of backing a people’s vote on Brexit, a huge mistake that undermines the Labour movement from multiple angles.

Firstly, there is “The Independent Group” to consider – this is, essentially, a cave to their demands. Corbyn has now shown he will bow to threats of defection and the loss of eight entirely forgettable MPs. More than bowing to the pressure, he has handed them legitimacy. Before today The Independent Group was a joke – their launch fell flat, they are all variously personally compromised, they have no policies, no ideology, no leader and they are even registered as business, NOT a political party.

They should have been ignored, mocked even, but not taken seriously. This decision hands them power. A dreadful mistake, that breathes life into a New Labour movement that has been husking out its last moments ever since Corbyn was elected leader.

Yes, it’s true this is technically no change from the Labour Conference position – but this announcement has meaning. Whatever the truth of the situation – the media can now present TIG as a small group who stood for their principles, and in doing so bent “Corbyn’s Personality Cult” back to the path of reason. Paying off a blackmailer is never the solution. They always want more.

Secondly, there is the Lexit vote. Brexit is not a purely left-vs-right issue. The media have tried to present Brexit as a battle between lovely cuddly progressives who want to remain and awful mean racists who want to leave. Obviously it was never that simple. There is a very real portion of the left who believe the EU is anti-democratic. It’s important to remember that being anti-EU was always a traditionally socialist position. A second referendum is a betrayal of those people, and weakening of Corbyn’s socialist base. There are marginal seats, especially in the poorer areas of the county, who will swing against Labour if it is perceived they are campaigning to stop Brexit.

Third, a teetering and hilariously incompetent Tory government has been shown a crack of hope here. They can now pitch themselves as “The British Party”, standing up for the nation against the “European” Labour party who want to “sell us out to Brussels”. You can be sure that’s how the Mail, Times and Sun will sell it. May can leverage this into a “khaki election” and win on a landslide of national pride.

Finally, and most importantly, there is the question of undermining democracy itself. It has never, ever, before been suggested we simply re-do a vote because we don’t like the outcome. Brexit has been sold as a vote “built on misinformation”, we have been told that “the realities have changed”, and that new voters have come of age, whilst old voters died. We have even been told Brexit needs to be undone because it is a threat to our “national security”.

A second referendum lends credence to these arguments – it sets the precedent. Demographic changes, dishonesty, national security. These lines of argument are vague and unquantifiable enough that they could then be cited as reason to delegitimize literally ANY vote. Up to, and including, a general election….that Jeremy Corbyn won.

“Labour lied about privatising water”….re-do the vote.
“Millions of old lefties have died since the last election”….re-do the vote.
“Corbyn’s campaign manager is a security threat”….re-do the vote.

The EU has form when it comes to replaying referenda until they get the result they want, but it is new in the British experience.

The actual form the vote is still undecided. Will it be a choice between two deals? Will there be a “remain option”? But this is largely immaterial. If the option is “this deal or no deal” and “no deal” has been ruled out, then a no vote on the deal is a vote to remain. The threat of no deal has been hammered home to us in a thousand different ways. A vote which “forces” no deal will be seen as a threat to the nation and discarded. Moving the deadline back is already being mooted, they can do this as many times as they want until people forget we were ever meant to leave, or will accept a deal which is just remain renamed.

The problem is not Brexit. The establishment has a million different tools for deconstructing, preventing, obfuscating and totally halting Brexit. The problem, from the establishment POV, is Jeremy Corbyn. They can’t stop Brexit until Corbyn has been removed…and Corbyn has now handed them the power to do this.

It’s important to hold all these issues in their proper perspective – this is about Corbyn, not Brexit. Corbyn is the threat, not Brexit.

In or out of the EU, a Tory or New Labour government would still push austerity for the poor and tax breaks for the rich.
In or out of the EU, a Tory or New Labour government will pour money into the arms industry whilst neglecting public services.
In or out of the EU, a Tory or New Labour government will still support American interventions in Syria, Venezuela and around the globe.

And, in or out of the EU, Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party would have reversed all of those policies.

That’s why MPs from every party have been actively trying to weaken his leadership, remove him from office and destroy public faith in his ideas. More than that, Corbyn is the only party leader who might actually deliver a proper departure from the EU (he would need to do so, in some ways, to enact his manifesto). Corbyn, and his fellow socialists, undermine the idea of Brexit as the cause of the racist rich.

If anyone but Jeremy Corbyn was leader of the Labour party one of two things would have already happened:

  1. The 2D Blairite elected in Corbyn’s place would have “united for common purpose” with the Tories to deliver Brexit in name only, and we’d have left the EU under a deal that was essentially the exact status quo under a rebranded status quo. Austerity – check. Free movement – check. Preparing to contribute to the EU army. Some small concessions, perhaps. Even less democratic representation.

  2. Brexit would have been called off entirely and we’d all have been “saved from an act of national self-harm”.

Brexit is NOT the biggest political crisis in Britain’s history. It isn’t even the most important political question facing us this decade, year or month. Austerity is. Growing poverty. Defunded public services. Privatisation of our transport, water and eventually our NHS. These are real crises.

The most important question we need to ask is – what is better for ordinary people, a Conservative government or a Labour government?

Do we want to be a neo-liberal state slowly crushing the poorest and most vulnerable beneath austerity’s boot heel? Or do we want to change, and try take care of each other?

For all the criticism of Jeremy Corbyn from the left, he has been steadfast in trying to secure a socialist government for this country, and undo the evil of the austerity. In backing the “people’s vote”, I fear he has dashed any chance of that happening.

Kit Knightly is co-editor of OffGuardian. The Guardian banned him from commenting. Twice. He used to write for fun, but now he's forced to out of a near-permanent sense of outrage.

145 Comments

  1. Lupulco says

    [Corbyn should know by now that he can’t win by playing their game by their rules. You can’t appease people who do not want to be appeased. You can’t clean up a smear campaign, and trying just spreads the smears further.]

    Change the name or delete it. Change Anti-Semitic, to Islamophobic,or to homophobic, or to racist. There you have the problem in a sentence. Whatever you say will upset someone, so people start to self censor their feelings, until those feeling suddenly rise to the surface.

    Free speech is a dangerous thing, but to stop free speech in the long term can be even more dangerous. When the time is ripe, or when the right? person come along to tap this sense of injustice felt by many people who feel aggrieved by the action of certain sects and countries but are not allowed to openly criticise.

    But back to Labour or any major political party. They have shown that they totally disregard democracy [unless the outcome suits them] be it Brexit in the UK, or the election of Trump in the US. [get over it Trump was elected four four years,]

    What the political establishment as shown [via MSM] that their form of Democracy was a total sham. They have established a cosy cartel of professional politicians who have very little experience of life our side of their cartel and see the masses as stupid voters who follow their political agendas like zombies.

    The problem now [for them,] is how to get the genie back into the bottle. The last two or three years have shown to the masses the illusion of Democracy and the two party state for what it is, an illusion.

    What is required now is change, by change i don’t mean man the barricades and violent insurrection [the elites have bigger sticks and are better organised then the masses] but gentle changes. One example; The heads of states [be they Presidents or Prime Ministers are in post [usually] for a maximum of two terms. This should be the norm for all so called democracies.

    The Senators, Congressmen, Members of Parliament etc should also be limited to a maximum number of terms in office [say 3 or 4 terms] and elections held every 4 years with 50% of the seats contested every second year [as per the USA]

    What they [Political Class] have achieved world wide is what i call a Copernicus moment. The sun does not revolve around the world, nor does the world revolve round the professional political class.

  2. mark says

    Maybe what Jezza and all progressive forces need to do is fight fire with fire.
    Get down and dirty.
    Get right down in the sewer with them.
    Give them as good as you get.
    Repay them in their own coin.
    Toss the rule book in the bin.
    Run smear campaigns. Get some dirt on them. If there isn’t any, just invent it like they do.
    Plant stories with friends.
    Harass, blackmail and bribe.
    Use every dirty trick in the book, then invent a few more.
    This is what the Zionists have been doing for years.
    Let’s teach them a few things.
    They like dishing it out.
    See how they like taking it.
    They started it, and they’re not going to stop, so you can do whatever you like with a clean conscience.
    Whatever you like.
    And take politics back on to the streets where it belongs.

    • Maggie says

      EXACTLY!! Which is what I have been attempting to do on every forum or comment page I can. Show the Vampire HYDRA for what it is…
      Begin now with the ”Lobby” both the UK and US.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjX5OOxCK-8

      I wonder if they have ever stopped to think WHY countries throughout History have expelled them? I they really SO stupid.
      The problem is that they have skilfully engineered their places in the Judiciary, Politics, and Banking, and from there some of them are choosing to inflict the utmost damage.
      I cannot think of any other Religion that has wormed it’s way into people’s heads like this one. The Catholics tried in the dark ages… but soon realised it was not in their own interests to foment so much hatred.

      The only reason the Zionist/Israel is “getting away with murder“ is because they have blackmailed and gagged us. And turned US against one another.

      I have been fortunate enough to have a large circle of friends and colleagues who I have been able to have cordial discussions and ‘ ‘arguments’ with about a myriad of subjects, which increased my and their knowledge equally. However, a few years ago in a discussion about the holocaust, at a dinner party with lifelong friends – one of them a Business Management Consultant became very belligerent and asked if I had read Mein Kamf? And actually accused me of being anti-semetic??? For suggesting there was more to the story than we were told.
      Only two of the other eight actually agreed with me and understood what I was saying? It was then I realised just how deep the Zionist propaganda had bitten. Not one knew anything” about the founder of Zionism Theodor Hertzl, or that Palestine had been earmarked in 1896.
      Sad to say, despite being friends for over 35 years, I can no longer be in their company.
      No one in their right mind believes that there were no atrocities committed… it was WAR, and that is the nature of war. Men and even women now,are trained to become animals. To kill without conscience. You only need to look at the excuse for a woman in Guantanamo….

      The obsessive invocation of the cabalistic fable of “6,000,000 dead or dying Jews” dating back at least four decades prior to the events of WWII directly undermines and betrays the notion that 6,000,000 Jews perished in Europe between 1939-1945, as Jews have claimed. It was a lie the first time, and it is a lie today!
      As were the gas chambers as death chambers. They were in fact de lousing chambers.
      See Elie Weisa`ls lie in this article too;” Jewish Press February 1991 ”Iraq has Gas chambers for ALL Jews” And in Weisenthall’s ” Response, Vol. 12, No. 1, Spring 1991 The Global Fallout of Desert Storm. Germans produce Zyclon B for Iraq’s German made Gas chambers.
      http://balder.org/judea/Six-Million-140-Occurrences-Of-The-Word-Holocaust-And-The-Number-6,000,000-Before-The-Nuremberg-Trials-Began.php
      Scroll to the bottom of this article and you will see that the 6.000.000 has been weaponised since 1869…… And like obedient sheep we have been driven into their pens to be slaughtered in wars of their making, so that they could have control of land and resources.
      But I say NO MORE…
      We all have immediate access to the internet, where FACTS can be verified instantly.. . There really is no excuse for ignorance…

      The first step in stopping this EVIL, is to teach the Holocaust thoroughly in schools, encourage critical investigations on both sides… which WILL lead eventually to the information above…only then will the truth replace cynical manipulative lies.
      Norman Finkelstein’s The Holocaust Industry” and Miko Peled ”The General’s Son” and ”Injustice” should be compulsory reading for all students.

      https://mikopeled.com/to-book-miko-peled-for-a-lecture/about/
      Here is a balanced blog dedicated to tearing down the separation wall and transforming the Israeli apartheid system into a democratic state with equal rights. This is an idea that may be a bitter pill to swallow for Jews and some Palestinians who will have to let go of the dream of having a state that is exclusively Jewish or Muslim. The articles, the stories and the pictures in this blog are meant to make a single point: For the good of both nations, the Israeli apartheid system must be defied and BDS must be adopted fully so that the Separation Wall will come down, and a democracy with equal rights can be established in Palestine.

  3. I think, on balance, Corbyn was right to jump on the referendum. He could not remain shackled to a policy that half the voters, and a larger proportion of Labour voters, oppose. The possibility of another referendum gives him room for manoeuvre in the future, whatever happens – and the likelihood is that the future will see Brexit stall or become increasingly unpopular.
    I’m also not at all convinced that Brexit is as decisive in people’s voting choices as the media suggest. I supported Labour when it was a ‘Brexit party’ even though I voted Remain – I doubt very much that many Labour voters will vote Tory over Brexit.
    I believe much of this ‘anger’ at Labour and ‘unpopularity’ is generated by the Tories, their client media and pollsters who fabricate results on demand, just as the ‘anti-semitism’ smears are. It is all part of a campaign by the establishment to bolster the Tories by trying to nobble the opposition parties. Reassuringly, perhaps, these attempts to cheat are becoming increasingly desperate and obvious.

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    • John Crispin says

      I agree but I just wish it was a bit more obvious to the gullible gobblers of the media bullshit. The complete failure including by the likes of Tom Watson to differentiate anti semitism and anti Zionism is living proof tom of your assertion about the smears. The fact they keep on wheeling it,… today even they get the mealy mouthed Lord Falconer to slam poor old chris williamson who manfully stood by his guns on this absolute tripe proved yet again that Labour is acting all the time like it is beaten. So time to man up jezza and if necessary go down guns blazing .

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    • mark says

      A “second referendum” is a betrayal of democracy which shows the usual utter contempt for the British People.

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  4. Paul says

    Tom Watson would indeed make an excellent Witch Finder General – and he’d love the job! He must be stopped!

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    • mark says

      Williamson has just been suspended for “anti semitism.”
      He called out the anti semitic smear campaign for what it is.
      The Board of Deputies and the Israeli Embassy are trying to pick off everybody round Jezza one by one.
      Ken Livingstone, Marc Wadsworth, Hatton a day after he rejoined.
      Claiming the right to sack anyone who “offends” them.

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  5. Robert Applewood says

    Please let us think about what we are saying: “We have Corbyn, who is anti-establishment, who is being demonized by the establishment. People support him. But he is strangely lenient about the new labor MP’s in his party who is digging his grave. Inexplicably he doesn’t throw these dinosaurs out of the party but retreats before them as if they have any real power. On issue after issue, he backtracks and falls into line. Why? Nobody is quite sure….” Well, isn’t it time we wake up finally? Haven’t we seen the same story with Tsipras, Trump, 5-star movement in Italy, Podemos in Spain and elsewhere? Isn’t it obviously clear by now that Corbyn is not what we thought he is? Isn’t it crystal clear by now that he is a trojan horse, a false prophet if you wish, who was installed by the establishment to drive the people to a blind street, to dash their hopes, to make them feel powerless? Is the establishment so stupid to let an anti-establishment figure to lead a mainstream party which can come to power any minute? And about the mccarthyte attacks on Corbyn? Well, how would he gain the trust of the people without those attacks? Isn’t it the same story with Trump as well? Oh those little farces they are playing all the time. Time to wake up, people!

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  6. crank says

    Corbynism 12-09-2015 to 27-02-2018. RIP

    – He fought the foes with amity,
    We dreamed a dawn begun,
    But the foes they took his friendship
    as bullets for their gun.

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    • crank says

      2019 !

      Corbyn is an imbecile amongst imbeciles. One flew over the cuckoos nest of spineless amateurs with pathetic rhetoric. Worse than useless. Arthur Scargill

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  7. Paul says

    I’m sure there was a groan across the country when Chris Williamson’s suspension from the Party was announced. He’s absolutely right about the demonisation of Labour. It’s becoming like the Joe McCarthy hearings with surreal arguments over semantics. And everywhere the hand of Israel oiling the wheels and pulling the switches.

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    • harry stotle says

      The current crop of Labour MPs think Chris, Ken, Marc and Jackie bring the party in ‘disrepute’ while apparently having no problem with Mr WMD.

      Moral of story: send a controversial tweet and you are toast – lay waste to the Middle East and your bank account is likely to mirror that of a Wall Street venture capitalist.

      Facism on the rise while the Labour party eats itself – of course the implosion might not have been so easy to orchestrate if it wasn’t for the ever growing influence of identity politics.

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    • mark says

      Can’t offend the Chosen People. Those shekels have to be earned you know.

    • Maggie says

      We had a foretaste ‘ Inside British Israeli Lobby” 2009 Dispatches should have been named ”Shape of things to come.” but who took any notice?
      Camoron even said ”If I become Prime Minister, Israel has a friend who will never turn his back.”
      https://mpbondblog.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/inside-britains-israel-lobby-dispatches/
      If you wanted to know why and who pulled the Guardian’s teeth… look at 27.02
      Incidentally, Dispatches disappeared from our screens after this….
      39.00 is where the BBC was gagged! And when they lost all credibility and respect of the people.
      BBC used to be excellent reporters of world news 2005/6 when BBC succumbed to the Zionists and became biased in favour of the Zionist agenda!

      September 22, 2015
      ”Operation Ridicule: the Character Assassination of Jeremy Corbyn”
      https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/09/22/the-assassination-of-jeremy-corbyn-operation-ridicule/

      Feb 2019
      As Chris Williamson has been suspended, what is to stop him and Jackie starting their own revolution?
      It is clear from day one of his leadership, that Jeremy has being constantly undermined and handcuffed, to such a degree as to render him useless…( I defy anyone to perform their proper function with all those knives in their back.) For Jeremy to continue and succeed he has to have the principals of a saint, because frankly, for all my tenacity, I would now be saying stuff the lot.

      Firstly he really needs to STOP apologising to the Zionist/Israel LOBBY or acknowledging their BS.. That strangely never existed prior to him becoming leader???? He and the committee need to go on an all out smear attack themselves. Christ knows the Jewish Friends have enough skeletons in their closet all ready.
      Let the Jewish Board of Deputies get themselves into a foaming frenzy.. and IGNORE them. What will they do next… shoot him?

      What we CAN DO is continue to expose their lies and manipulation by posting everything we have:
      ;”The Lobby part 1” Recruiting Young Friends of Israel
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc&t=10s
      ”The Lobby part 2” The Training Session and vilification of Jackie Walker
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuk1EhkEctE&t=278s
      ”The Lobby part 3” Exposes Joan Ryan!!!
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3dn-VV3czc&t=597s
      ”The Lobby part 4” The takedown of Alan Duncan.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pddH2sfNKNY&t=172s

      NOTE; ALL COMMENTS ON THESE VIDEOS ARE DISABLED…..
      But we can post these videos on other sites and comment.

      Just imagine if there was a Pro Iran Organisation embarked on a smear campaign, recruiting in Britain which was being controlled from Tehran… there would be wholesale condemnation. The Media would be on fire with it!
      So WHAT are MI5 doing about this? Allowing Israel to undermine and influence our Government?

      MI5 definition of ”Espionage” …. seeking to influence decision makers and opinion formers to BENEFIT interests of a foreign power.

  8. MichaelK says

    Back in the ‘old country’ before the Second World War, we used to have referendums too. Didn’t turn out too well, because the public are too easily swayed by charismatic charlatans selling an easy and attractive narrative that dumbs down really complex issues, smothering everything in nationalistic and emotional rhetoric that can lead to disaster down the line. David Cameron only called the referendum to create a parliamentary battering ram to bash the annoying Conservative nationalist right to pieces, in the first place. It was a cynical tactical piece of political cardplay, nothing more. That the left supports this is… extraordinary, though perhaps understandable, they’re so desparate for powr they’ll do almost anything regardless of how potentially damaging it is.

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    • Paul says

      What ‘old country’ is that? Italy under Mussolini? Argentinia under Peron? France Under German occupation? Please tell!

      • MichaelK says

        Does it really, honestly, matter to you? Think of a country that’s worse than the ones you mentioned. Done that? You might be in line for a special prize.

        Democracy in ancient Athens and a few other Greek city states, was a rather perculiar thing, at least seen with our eyes, though still a rather radical and wonderful… experiment… that didn’t really work. it was, I’d argue, a luxury even then, for free men in Athens, where the vast majority of the population, probably 80% didn’t have a vote. The very idea of mass democracy would have appalled the voters of Athens, because only citizens were supposed to take part in it. What does ‘citzenship’ mean today? Can one have a properly functioning democracy without proper citizens?

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        • Paul says

          I was just curious about what you meant. Sorry for interrupting your chain of thought, if that’s what you call it!

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          • MichaelK says

            You do know, I suppose that you sound catty, which is a particularly unpleasant quality.

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        • Mikalina says

          The elite know themselves to be the citizens; we are the cattle – whether in Rome, Ancient Athens, our Home countries pre-war or our countries today. This is why they choose democracy – it works for them.

          “error is only justice: prompt, severe and inflexible; it is then an emanation of virtue; it is less a distinct principle than a natural consequence of the general principle of democracy, applied to the most pressing wants of the country.” Robespierre

    • mark says

      The Tory Party was divided down the middle. The country was divided down the middle.

  9. Kathy says

    I am genuinely unable to see how leaving or remaining within the EU offer any conceivable difference. They are both holding us within the same paradigm. They both mirror each other. If we were to have a true {taking back control} a true over haul of the system as is. If by leaving we really were to become a free thinking land of peace, a utopia spreading outwards and embracing the whole world. But sadly I only see a drawing up of sides and a drawing down of communication and a splitting of the people against the people.
    I can see the false in the EU. The lie is however just as alive and flourishing within the UK as it is there. So I feel we delude ourselves if we think that Brexit will in any way change this in or of itself. It is a Hobson’s choice, a ruse, a distraction. It is the paradigm we are all governed under that we need to challenge and a shift of consciousness is what is needed, not more confrontation and division and not a building up of more physical barricades and a closing in and down on ourselves. This lie is of regaining a sovereignty back from the EU. The idea of sovereignty is one of the state, not of the people.. Under the present paradigm, We are being subjected to it whoever holds the reign. In or out of the EU, we are still within their matrix.

    When it comes to Brexit, I see little hope in it heralding a coming back together of the people. The vote has in fact cleaved us apart. The result of the referendum is of a divided nation. I see a country at odds and now locked and entrenched within this separation. It seems to have cast a spell on the country. We are all being sucked into civil war which ultimately serves only our masters purposes. Does it not seem contrived, a deliberate act to pull us all apart. A classic divide and rule. Are we saying that we would chose to make enemy’s of our brothers and sisters just to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. That just because Corbyn now sees it as probably a more democratic move forward, to put this all back to the people to decide, rather than for parliament to continue this toxic game at all our expense. Would we reject the chance to at least see a better hope for the future. Just to teach him a lesson. Because if this is so. Brexit really is a Gordian knot that we cannot untangle it is only going to corrode and fester any way. We have already allowed it to divert and divide us. It is unification and heeling we need to find now. Should we not be putting our energy to a better use then entering the chess board and being pawns in the game our masters have devised for us.

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    • Maggie says

      Hi Kathy,
      ”Does it not seem contrived, a deliberate act to pull us all apart. A classic divide and rule.”
      No more so than ‘Party” politics?

  10. John says

    It’s one thing to shoot yourself in the foot but to shoot yourself in the back of the head twice ala Clinton crime family is fucking impressive. Jezza swallows jizza

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  11. MichaelK says

    I think this article fundamentally misunderstands the core concepts inherent in democracy, on the big stage and doesn’t do much better when it examines the detail of the present political crisis in the UK relating to the Brexit fiasco.

    Democracy, if it’s about anything, is about the expression of the popular will in relation to ‘popular’ issues at a particular time. Democracy is about change, the possibility of change and not about slavishly following what used to be. Democracy isn’t about a man standing and shouting with his feet solidly trapped in a bath of concrete. One vote is a ‘good’ as the next one. It’s perfectly possible for the people to change their minds and vote differently and reject what they previously voted for. In fact this democratic process is, arguably, the central idea in a democratic system. Having another vote on Brexit is an example of this perfectly normal democratic process. It happens all the time after all. Peeople vote for one government, then vote for another one at a later date. Why bother to have elections at all otherwise?

    There’s is nothiing sacred about the Brexit vote at all. Another vote or an election about the terms, circumstances and consequences is perfectly reasonable. Personally I find the left’s attitude to Brexit extraordinary.

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    • JudyJ says

      Michael,

      “Having another vote on Brexit is an example of this perfectly normal democratic process”.

      I agree with much of what you say but, unfortunately, it seems to me that those with authority and the MSM pushing for a second referendum do so not out of a desire to uphold democracy but in order to overturn the democratic outcome of the original vote. I would not be opposed to a second vote myself (and I vote to leave the EU) but I do not think it is a ‘given’ that the original vote would be overturned. It largely depends on the wording of the choices given in such a referendum. All hypothetical I know, but that would be the time to judge the true respect that those calling for a second referendum have for the democratic process, and to test their mettle and present inadequacies in delivering what the majority of people might still want.

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    • Some Random Passer-by says

      There is everything sacred about the vote, or any vote.

      We have never ever had an election and then had another vote because it wasn’t right.

      I understand your desire to change the results, but you can only change the results when they have been implemented.

      If you’re willing to renege on democracy in this manner, then don’t be surprised or upset when others ignore laws and other institutions of democracy.

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      • mark says

        This is true. May won the last election, or at least remained in power and in government. But I don’t like that result. I think Jezza should have won. Perhaps he only lost because some people are too stupid and ignorant and bigoted to see his many qualities. Or perhaps because of the lies of the MSM, with the Daily Mail running a 14 page smear campaign the day before the election. Perhaps he only lost because people are stupid. Or because they were lied to. So I think that election is illegitimate. It is unacceptable. Maybe people have changed their minds since then and decided they don’t like May. Some people who voted against him have probably since died. So we need to have another election every couple of months. Give the people the chance to have their say. People have the right to change their minds. Let’s have a People’s Vote. Till we get the right result and Jezza is elected. Only when I am satisfied can the election be considered legitimate.

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        • Paul says

          Annual elections have been a Radical aim since the 1640’s and was part of the Chartist platform in 1848. It would be easier to do now because of the tech available. MP’s wouldn’t like it because they couldn’t build a career (they’d claim) and with no guarantee of payment beyond the year they’d be as insecure as many of the voters. But it cuts them down to size and better reflects popular feeling. Time to resurrect the old claim for Annual Parliaments?

          • mark says

            No, they need to be held once a week. At least.

        • DunGroanin says

          Mark. Nice try. But no cigar.

          I agree about the fact of accepting the result of elections. Even if they were STOLEN or BOUGHT. As they always were.

          However, any such criminal activity ought to be prosecuted.

          There is also a difference between parliamentary or local elections and single issue referendums. Because if the elected representatives are unable to function as a government – then it is normal to go back to the voters to determine again who governs?

          I only get a vote every few years at best and happily welcome the opportunity to vote as often as possible! As should we all.

          • mark says

            Remain outspent Leave by 2-1. This is a bit better than 1975, when it was 100-1.

    • Francis Lee says

      ”There’s is nothiing sacred about the Brexit vote at all. Another vote or an election about the terms, circumstances and consequences is perfectly reasonable.”

      It is no such thing!

      What an extraordinarily cavalier statement. If an election are referendum vote is not binding then the whole exercise would simply be advisory not mandatory. The only ‘terms and consequences’ to which you refer are simply conjecture not established facts. That has been the project fear blitzkreig that the establishment media have been putting out the day after the result in June 2016.

      The usual procedure is that elections or referenda are conducted legally and if you don’t like the outcome you have to wait for another chance to vote for your approved candidate and policy in the fullness of time When I voted in UK elections in 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992, I was on the losing side every time. But I did not vote for a second election (it never even occured to me to do so) even though the policies being advocated would be harmful.

      To demand a second referendum because you 1. Didn’t like the outcome, and, 2. were gullible enough to vote for it and were in a minority is unconstitutional and unprecedented.

      This issue is not whether you liked or disliked the outcome of the referendum, but can you have a second vote a) because you didn’t like the result of the first one, or b) you treated conjecture as facts, and even if those conjectures were true that still wouldn’t validate the outcome of the June 2016 Referendum

      This second referendum would open up a real Pandora’s Box of bitterness and instability – presumably you would be prepared for that?

      • mark says

        We could have another referendum to decide whether we should have another referendum.
        Or perhaps we should just cut the cards for the result. Aces high and jokers wild.
        Or we could have a mud wrestling bout between May and Dianne Abbott, umpired by Bercow. Winner takes all.
        Cut out all the swingometers and Jonathan Bumblebee droning on for hours on end.
        You have to think laterally. Think outside the box. Blue sky thinking.

    • Maggie says

      Pray tell me, what will happen if the next vote results in the same % of votes, but for remain? Will we then have another vote until finally we all give up, and no one votes except those with vested interests in the outcome.
      An election about the terms? And how will we know about these? A large proportion of the people of this country don’t even know if they will be in a job next week, of where their next meal is coming from, and you want them to vote on ”terms?”

      It is a total cockup…. The majority of people voted OUT… the Maybot should have delivered this. Not pussyfooting about waiting for the EU to give her the terms… She should have said ‘Here is what we are doing, take it or leave it, we are OUT.” And been a leader instead of an EU lapdog.

      • mark says

        I think we should have another referendum…………on whether we should have another referendum.

    • mark says

      Hezbollah are a heroic classic resistance/ liberation movement, real freedom fighters. They fought for 20 years to drive the Zionist invaders out of Lebanon. If it wasn’t for Hezbollah, Lebanon would still be Zionist Occupied and covered with their filthy illegal settlements. The Zionist kiddie killers don’t like fighting real men in Hezbollah. They prefer to gun down kids with dum dum bullets and British sniper rifles. So they run to their 30 shekel goy whore stooges in Washington and the Friends of Israel to do their dirty work for them, as they always do. More wars for Israel.

      In 2006, 4,000 Hezbollah fighters fought 75,000 Zionist forces with 600 tanks and unlimited air and naval support to a standstill. They kicked their arses, destroyed 50 tanks, shot down aircraft and destroyed a large warship. Fighting stronger after 5 weeks than they were at the beginning. The Zionist forces couldn’t handle it and resorted to their usual tricks and massacring civilians. But the goy whores in the Friends of Israel have to earn their shekels.

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  12. David William Pear says

    Interesting article Kit, and it is sad to see Corbyn caving in. Especially on this twisted new anti-Semitism purging that is going on. Soon everybody will have to sign an Israel loyalty oath, it is already happening in the US. Some states have passed laws against BDS and require employees to swear in writing that they don’t support BDS. It is on the way to becoming federal law.

    About Brexit: If Brexit will weaken the US Empire then I am for it. If staying in the EU will weaken the US Empire then I am for that.

    Even as a radically-left Yank I don’t pay much attention to European politics. Just keeping abreast of US illegal wars and writing about them keeps me busy. Most USAmericans just assume the UK is our poodle, and that the US owns NATO. Sadly, I can’t say that I disagree with that conclusion. I hope that changes.

    When is Western Europe going to get tired of having to make sacrifices for the benefit of the US? The US doesn’t care about Europe or anybody else. As far as the US is concerned Western Europe can be sacrificed in a “limited” nuclear war with Russia. That is why Trump withdrew from the INF treaty, without much objection from Democrats or the US public.

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  13. Coram Deo says

    Sadly, it is the left which fail to understand what a REMAIN vote means – not those who voted LEAVE.
    The EU is falling apart before our eyes and yet the left wishes to continue to drain the pockets of the working class in the UK to pay the colossal salaries and pensions of these unelected bureaucrats when we cannot even afford to pay our own pensioners [WASPIs]. Enabling them to complete the robbing, pillaging and raping of the UK before they spit us out – destroyed.
    Right now, we don’t need a Labour or Conservative government.
    Right now, we need men of integrity and wisdom who will do the best for the people of the UK – protecting our nation, our people and creating new industry where the EU and failed UK governments have dismantled previous ones.
    We need rid of degenerate, reprobate career politicians, who, like the EU, have been milking this country for decades.

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    • mark says

      We have paid £500 billion (£500,000,000,000) into the EU.
      500 billion down the drain.
      We are paying an additional £50 million every day we stay in it.
      And they say they want another £40 billion off us for absolutely nothing in return.
      They need to be told to go f*ck themselves.

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  14. George cornell says

    A small majority voted for Brexit, a great many of those voters failing to understand the implications and potential consequences. Much, if not most of the impetus came from the racist leanings of Middle England, who resented the Poles and Romanians taking jobs they themselves would not do. A fine stance for a country that has invaded 196 other nations. Cf. stealing the land of the Chagossians so the Americans could torture on Diego Garcia, and forcing them into penury in the slums of the Seychelles was ok. As Maynard Keynes said when confronted with – But previously you said…He replied – When the facts change, I reserve the right to change my mind. What do you do?

    Now that there is more understanding, the majority wants to rescind Brexit while the racist-tinged minority hysterically oppose a second referendum in an entirely anti-democratic way.

    This looks like lose-lose-lose to me. How does “Racist elements force exit from world’s largest trading block, implying rejection of the essentially anti-war ethos underpinning the EU, so as to continue their unholy alliance with the universally acknowledged greatest threat to world peace” sound to you?

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    • milosevic says

      rejection of the essentially anti-war ethos underpinning the EU, so as to continue their unholy alliance with the universally acknowledged greatest threat to world peace

      Who do you think it was exactly, that invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, and bombed Yugoslavia and Libya into rubble?

      Supposedly, there’s some organization called “NATO”, whose membership largely overlaps with that of the European Union — have you heard of it?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia#NATO_forces

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force#Contributing_nations

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq#List_of_countries_in_the_coalition

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya#Forces_committed

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    • mark says

      Yes, democracy is sooooo inconvenient.
      We should just get superior and splendid beings like yourself to take all the decisions for us.
      This is the EU system after all.

      All those “old”, “ignorant”, “bigoted”, “racist”, “uneducated”, people, all the “racist hysterical minority”, sorry majority, all 17 and a half million of them, should just be ignored, as they always have been.

      Aren’t we lucky to have Superior Beings like you around?

      Not sure what, if anything, this has to do with the extremely shabby and dishonest treatment of the Chagos Islanders, though. Afraid you’ve lost me there. Perhaps it takes your Superior Brain to see the connection.

      Not sure what the “anti war ethos of the EU” is either. Like Gandhi’s western civilisation, it would probably be a good idea. I’m sure all the Libyans who were bombed back to the Stone Age would heartily agree with the sentiment. As would the people of the eastern Ukraine as they cowered in their basements from neo Nazi death squads, tanks, artillery, bombers and ballistic missiles, with Brussels cheering them on and sending troops and weapons to Ukraine to join in all the fun. Or the assorted EU countries sending troops to Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and everywhere else there is a war to join in all the fun and mayhem there.

      Maybe we should just disenfranchise all these Deplorable People and limit the vote to the 18% of adult males over 21, and no women, who had the vote prior to WW1, presumably all Superior Beings like yourself, who are not “racist” and “ignorant.” Yes, let’s try that time honoured traditional system.

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      • BigB says

        How does “implying rejection of the essentially anti-war ethos underpinning the EU” sound to me? Very naive, George.

        From the Lisbon “military Frankenstein” Treaty on, the character of the EU has markedly changed. It’s all about CDSP – a common security and defence policy. I call this the “good cop” to NATO’s “bad cop”. It’s all about civil/military neoliberal state building and rebuilding, mediation, and militarised policing of neoliberal assets. The “European External Action Service” is the EU’s foreign policy website that details the missions to Mali, Libya, Kosovo, etc.

        From it, under development (as part of PESCO):

        EU Eurodrone – soon to be in a sky above you
        Tiger Mark 3 (EU attack helicopters) – ditto
        EU ‘beyond line of site’ land battlefield missile systems
        Armoured infantry fighting vehicles
        Amphibious assault vehicles
        Light armoured vehicles

        Should all be ready for the coming EU-led war on Russia; continuing occupation of the Baltics and Balkans; military Schengen; etc.

        Cyber and C4ISR (command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance)

        For the ongoing cyber-war on us.

        https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/35285/eu-strengthens-cooperation-security-and-defence_en

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        • George cornell says

          The reply below was intended for Mark. As for the EU, I should have said underpinning the creation of the EU because that is what I meant. But Britain has been in the invasion vanguard – like Flynn, although I concede the influence of the Ameticans has not been resisted as it might have been by the EU. But the special relationship surely outranks that with the EU.

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          • BigB says

            That’s the whole point, George. The ‘special relationship’ will be maintained with NATO: but also integrated and inter-operable with EU Military Unification, CDSP, CARD, EDF, etc. It seems to me – that between NATO/EU – they are developing a form of corporate autarchy – a self-sufficient state building and self-maintaining civil/military/paramilitary expansionist and protectionist union. Which will have its own Common Foreign and Security Policy …led by NATO, no doubt? NATO/EU is an integrated autarchical entity combining neoliberal hard and soft power options, and the combined largest military budget in the world …the MIC on steroids. Or maybe I’m just too cynical?

            https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/35285/eu-strengthens-cooperation-security-and-defence_en

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            • Mikalina says

              Nope, not cynical – clear thinking – just as when you predicted that Lansman would turn pied piper…….. (although those recent labour joiners he calls conspiracy theorists probably will not follow him…)

      • George cornell says

        Feel better now? And now that the majority wants to rescind Brexit, you want to prevent it. Is that what you are saying? I did not say that all 17 million were racist, you did. Are you suggesting there was no racist element in that tiny majority? Living in the UK makes it abundantly clear.

        You must be very young not to know what the anti-war ethos of the EU means. Are you suggesting the UK had no role in Libya, or the other countries you mention? Why is it that you are unable to make a point without turning it into some kind of personal attack? Are you so feeble at debating that it is all you got? Or just terminally arrested in development?

        I did not reply to your Gates request because I have learned that debating with people who can’t be civil is unrewarding. Just like this dialogue is.

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        • mark says

          Assuming that “the majority want to rescind Brexit”, if that is the case, shouldn’t we just ignore these people anyway for being so racist, bigoted, old and uneducated.? What value can the views of such Deplorable People possibly have?
          So 52% is a “tiny majority”, a difference of 4%. I’m sure that from now on, any MP, councillor or Government is going to say, “Oh no, I only got 52% of the vote. That is a tiny majority. It can’t possibly be allowed to stand. We must have another vote.”
          Of course I’m not suggesting the UK had no role in Libya. We bombed the s*it out of Libya. So did EU France, and EU Italy, and EU Denmark, and countless other EU countries with their “anti war ethos” – and all the other places EU countries have bombed the s*it out of. Iraq, Afghanistan, assorted other African and Asian folks. But Bombing Brown People is good for them. Everybody knows that.

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          • milosevic says

            all the other places EU countries have bombed the s*it out of. Iraq, Afghanistan, assorted other African and Asian folks.

            You forgot Yugoslavia.

            But Bombing Brown People is good for them. Everybody knows that.

            also Evil Russians, or Evil semi-Russians. They need to be bombed periodically, too. Otherwise they start to get funny ideas in their heads, and forget who rules the world. just like Brown People. maybe they’re not really White, or they would know better.

            a bomb a day, keeps the commies away. everybody knows that.

            16
            • Maggie says

              OMG! This is one of the most heart-breaking videos I have seen..
              Thank you for sharing this Milosevic, I was not ever aware….
              It is clearly that the same script is used over and over.. They never tire of it.
              I see that the same bastard War apologist BBC liars like Kirsty Wark were banging the war drums even then, as now on Newsnight and Hardtalk.
              And even then the power crazed War Criminal Tony Bliar was grinning and spewing his evil filth,. justifying the attacks by saying that civilians were not the targets? Just like today the children aren’t the targets in Syria and Yemen…. and tomorrow in Venezuela, North Korea, China, Russia. The Real mission was -: To destroy Yugoslavia and the example of a viable alternative economic system to Western imperialism.
              Perhaps this is what they have in store for Britain if we dare to elect a Socialist Prime Minister?.
              For Christ’s sake WHO WILL STOP NATO?

              Prior to watching this I held on to the idea that perhaps the Kirsty Warks of the MSM were perhaps just ignorant dupes prepared to read any old script just to pay the mortgage and get her kids through school….. But now realise that they are equally culpable. Because – just as I can research and learn the truth, so has she, or will have researchers to make sure she is in receipt of the facts….
              I hope her two kids are proud of her, and hope that they and theirs don’t have to reap what she has sown?

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              • JudyJ says

                “…or will have researchers to make sure she is in receipt of the facts…”.

                Maggie, to be more accurate you might like to replace that with “…or will have propagandists to make sure she is in receipt of the lies…” :))

                I fully relate to your frustration and ire. You are not alone.

                Judy

            • Gwyn says

              Milosevic – I echo the thanks for posting that video. Heartbreaking, indeed. The complete disregard for human life shown by the psychopaths who are behind these crimes never ceases to amaze and appal.

              As one of the survivors of the bombing of the train asks: what if this happened to civilians in countries which are part of NATO? Perhaps if people in those countries went through the experience of being mercilessly bombed and having to attempt to live among the ruins caused by the attacks, they wouldn’t be quite so gung-ho about visiting such destruction on people in other countries.

            • mark says

              Yes, sorry, M, shouldn’t forget Yugoslavia.
              The old Yugoslavia was a beautiful country, and very civilised. Though it was officially “communist”, people were free to travel and work abroad, and millions did. Private enterprise was allowed within limits. You could employ up to 25 people, with larger businesses like mines and railways and car factories being state owned.
              There was no need for it to fall apart in a terrible war. All its problems could have been resolved with more federalism or a peaceful break up like Czechoslovakia.
              This happened to serve the interests of big business, geopolitics, gas pipelines, Camp Bondsteel, the same old story we have seen in so many other places.
              The Neocon/ Blair lies were off the scale and provided a template for Iraq and elsewhere later. If anything, the lies were even more blatant. We had the non existent “100,000 Kosovans massacred.” And Srebrenica, with its “8,000 murdered Bosnians” What really happened was that Bosnian paramilitary thugs murdered 2,000 Serb civilians, who retaliated by murdering 500 Bosnians.
              All thanks to Uncle Sam and the EU, with George Cornell’s famous “anti war ethos.”
              So now we have the organ trafficking Kosovo Mafia Narco State, just like we have the slave markets of Cameron’s Great Libyan Democracy.

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            • JudyJ says

              Thought for the day, expressed by the father of one of the children slaughtered in Murino “NATO stands for New American Terrorist Army”. He’s not wrong, and that apt description will remain with me now every time I hear mention of that criminal organisation.

              • JudyJ says

                Sorry for the aberration. I should of course have said “New American Terrorist Organisation”.

        • Ray Raven says

          Ah, the higher ideal, the quality of the debate and the rewards offered by you rapier wit in that debate.
          It doesn’t matter on the quality of the debate; you argument is nonsense and you’ve lost the debate (as was the referendum lost).
          Mike’s got you in a squirrel grip.
          So enjoy the ride, suck it up and move on, not try and overturn a decision that has not been implemented.

        • mark says

          I didn’t bother reading that. Like the Guardian and the rest of the MSM Lugenpresse, the Washington Compost isn’t fit to line the bottom of my bird cage.

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    • Some Random Passer-by says

      Sounds like bollocks!

      So tired of entitled middle classes like yourself not wanting to see the truth.

      Well here’s some more for you. People like you stand on the shoulders of people like me. And its bloody tempting to grab your balls and crush them.

      Be prepared for unforseen circumstances!

      The prediction on the big day 23/7/16

      https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-remain-vote-leave-live-latest-who-will-win-results-populus-a7097261.html

      Oh look! Remain to win by 10%….it didn’t, did it…

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      • mark says

        Like Trump’s chance of winning was 50-1 against.

    • Rhys Jaggar says

      You really are off with the fairies.

      The EU is neoliberal imperialism and is increasingly supporting every US coup and war going.

      Sorry, you are neither superior nor educated. You are simply brazen and self-interested.

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    • Absolutely. It is no coincidence that the people pulling the strings of the leading Brexiteers are right-wing Americans. The US wants Brexit to divide Europe and to further take over the UK. I’m amazed that people can be so gullible as to believe the Tories would be trying to implement a policy so determinedly that did not have American backing.

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    • Robbobbobin says

      “Now that there is more understanding, the majority wants to rescind Brexit while the racist-tinged minority hysterically oppose a second referendum in an entirely anti-democratic way.”

      You’re not thinking clearly Mr cCornell. Now that more understanding has led to a majority wanting to rescind Brexit, what on earth are we doing proposing a costly, waste-of-time, second referendum. As the hysterically tinted racists are now a minority wanting to retain Brexit, we should Nike and forget all that divisive referenduming rerun nonsense.

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  15. BigB says

    I disagree with Kit: this is the biggest existential crisis socialism has faced in this country – ever. All the social concessions we have ever won – including the NHS – are contingent on the outcome of Brexit. A point Bill Mitchell has made since the referendum. If Labour enters voluntary suzerainty with the European Empire: there will be no progessive socialism ever in this country. With Labour’s own fiscal rule and volunteered loss of sovereignty – dutifully laid on the neoliberal altar of Maastricht – we will have limited say in our own future. When I say we, it is not all including, we refers to the elite management class of corporate captured ideologically indoctrinated bureaucrats. We will be depoliticized and have no say at all.

    Our military, our foreign policy, our defence budget, fiscal sovereignty, and individual sovereignty are Being negotiated away: in our name …but without a say.

    And look who is doing the negotiations …in secret, without a democratic mandate or oversight – class traitor Corbyn. British socialism is under clear and apparent existential threat from British socialism. And the champagne socialists lap it up. You really do have to have had your head wedged firmly up your own SKWAWKBOX: in cognitive deficit over the last two years to not notice the capitulation to imperialism …and now to neoliberal inequality and corporate capture. For the Few: never the Many.

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=41571

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    • crank says

      Corbynism was never going to build a ‘grassroots people’s party’ from the top down. Voting in a leader with a slightly Left wing voting record and campaign history was not in itself going to bring on the groundswell of populist politics, the community level organising, the actual substructure of a genuinely democratic party movement.
      At the beginning lots of people looked to Momentum as a possible vehicle for trying to create this kind of change at the base. Political education, tying in community action (food banks etc.), creating a strong narrative through a coherent independent media organisation.
      Some of these things were tried, but of course we know what happened.
      People (rightly) make hay out of The Independent Group being a private company, but less so that Lansman’s Momentum effectively is one and has been for years.

      Politics is, today, for most people, just watching television. ‘Press the red button to vote Corbyn’.

      I keep speaking to people, so many of them simply recite Guardian opinion talking points, even today. Why should they listen to someone like me ?

      16
      • crank says

        If narrative control basically is politics in the internet age, then to reiterate the point that that should have been priority number one for a Corbyn movement, we must consider the two most obvious advocates for Corbynism in the public mind : Owen Jones and Paul Mason.
        Mason tweets:
        2) (How to win Remain in PV)… Leave is Putin’s plan for Britain; it harms our national security and weakens NATO…
        That is the kind of messaging we see from DC Neocons.
        The Left are tiny. The pseudoLeft? – much bigger.

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        • DunGroanin says

          Crank your claim that Mason and Jones are in anyway Corbynites is as wrong. Both have been outed as part of the controlled opposition cadre.

          Anyone still taken in by their flip-floppyness over the Corbyn Labour party need a visit to the opticians.

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        • Maggie says

          @ Crank – >>(How to win Remain in PV)… Leave is Putin’s plan for Britain; it harms our national security and weakens NATO…<<
          And this is what is creating panic among the MSM propagandised sheep… That and the fact that the Labour party fragmented INTO SO MANY DIFFERENT 'PARTIES' Assisted by Tom Watson & Co, all fighting against one another for the top spot.. To be honest – even my head is spinning.
          When you have people like George Cornell above, stating that ''A small majority voted for Brexit, and didn't understand the implications and possible consequences. Much, if not most of the impetus came from the racist leanings of Middle England, who resented the Poles and Romanians taking jobs they themselves would not do '' it beggars belief in anything he says that follows…
          I voted to Leave… I am against racism with every fibre of my body… I worked all my life supporting vulnerable and the less fortunate, including immigrants and asylum seekers regardless of race or religion. Who, given the choice would have preferred to have been able to live in their own countries instead of being driven out by the Perpetual War machine spearheaded by the US/Israel/UK/France/ Saudi AND Australia.. Working towards a Greater Israel and NWO.
          I voted leave because I am sick of the constraints that the EU put upon our country. As BigB says, if we remain attached to the EU, ''There will be no Progressive Socialism ever in this country. With Labour’s own fiscal rule and volunteered loss of sovereignty – dutifully laid on the neoliberal altar of Maastricht.'' We will be in an even weaker position and be the laughing stock of Europe.
          I Want us to revitalise our own businesses, and industries, particularly agriculture, instead of being subsidised to keep fields for cattle fodder. It appears that only Scotland and Wales have a dairy industry worth speaking about while our farms lie dormant, for the most part, except for the Gentleman farmer of course. The UK produces only 59% of the food it consumes. In 2010, it exported £14 billion worth of food, feed and drink, and imported £32.5 billion… The vast majority of imports and exports are with other Western European countries….
          I want autonomy for my country, like Sweden, Norway, and Switzerland.
          I want us to cut ties with the NATO bully boys and America, and especially Israel, who are intent on creating an EU Army to attack Russia and China using our children as their cannon fodder, and make us a target stuck in the middle of any dispute America creates https://www.rt.com/op-ed/361832-eu-army-nato-germany/
          I want us to align with all the rest of the world, including Russia, China and Japan, whose economies depends on trade rather than killing innocent people to steal their resources.
          I want Tony Bliar and his sidekick Campbell to be tried for War Crimes.
          I actually want all the self serving capitalists jump this ship and make way for home grown talent to come through, and Government money and subsidies to be spent on them, rather than bailing out their cronies ) like Cotillion's chairman Peter Green (who was advisor to NO 10!) who used the money to give the board massive bonuses and went bankrupt anyway, walking away with the pension pot, leaving unfinished wards and theatres, and the NHS in an even deeper hole. But perhaps that was the plan all along, because that left it ripe for a buy-out by German investors.https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/sep/04/german-company-takeover-nhs-hospitals https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourbeeb/oliver-huitson/how-bbc-betrayed-nhs-exclusive-report-on-two-years-of-censorship-and-distorti.
          I would like to see ALL the political parties, not just the Labour Party, fragment into small pieces so that NONE of them could ever be able to serve themselves, their relatives and friends from the hard earned money paid into Government by the Workers of this country. In fact PARTY politics should be scrapped completely and we should have a coalition. Let those interested in representing us in governent go and doorstep and listen to what the people WANT, rather than telling us what we want. The hyenas spend more time shouting and braying at one another and doing favours for the lobbyists than they have ever done for us. See ''The Lobby'' on You tube. THEY should work for a minimum wage the same as the rest of us… and if they are genuine in their desire to serve the people, they will be happy to. ALSO the Commons Bar and restaurant should be CLOSED. Why should they have subsidised drink and food, when there are thousands of people sleeping on the streets and queuing up at food banks?
          Hereditary peerages should be abolished and all those sleeping in the House of Lords should lose that day's pay.
          Lastly, Jeremy Corbyn should STOP pandering to all the Israeli apologists and their smearing anti semetism
          and racism, and all the pathetic shower who clearly have been compromised, and should have been laughed at. And get on with the job in hand. Making plans to re build our country after Brexit that a MAJORITY voted for……

          • crank says

            Lastly, Jeremy Corbyn should STOP pandering to all the Israeli apologists and their smearing anti semetism
            I would say that should be top of your list.
            As Chris Williamson faces the wrath of the zionism enforcement arm of the Labour Party (and its extensions in the media world) for daring to share just a smidgen of truth about the falsity of these smears, I pass on this article linked to me in a previous forum:
            http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Love_Labours.htm
            It’s time that all principled anti-racists realised what is taking place here.

          • Some Random Passer-by says

            Duterte has the solution. It’s simple and its elegant.

            Throw out all politicians. Get the brightest and best youngsters to replace them.

            “If you become corrupt, we will put a bullet between your eyes. If you remain clean, and do well for the country, we will increase your salary yearly as a reward”

            Apparently the guy has a law degree…

      • BigB says

        Crank

        Paulo Freire said something very similar …the liberal left always seek the quickest route back into power: without bothering to build a lasting progessive alliance from the roots …ultimately betraying socialism to the oppressors. He was right. I should have known better, but I honestly thought this time it would be different. My bad.

        There is no alternative but for the people to build their own anti-imperialist, anti-neoliberal, anti-capitalist alliance for peace. As Rosa said a hundred years ago: they were only the vanguard …we are the real socialism.

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    • vexarb says

      BigB, I was in favour of Remain and Reform from Within, and I believe Corbyn was likewise. However, I think Britain’s structural and political problems are bigger than Brexit because the Labour Party has not yet rid itself of the AZC virus. The party of Corbyn is not the party of Attlee nor even the party of Wilson, it is riddled with AZC parasites so I do not see how it could restore socialism even in a Brexited Britain. The acid test for Corbyn’s authority as a Socialist PM in waiting will be the debate on the Conservative government’s Zionazi proposal to outlaw Lebanese Resistance to aggression by the AZC in Syria and by Israel in Lebanon. If the Labour Party fudge their opposition to this proposal or even go along with the proposal, then watch out for the next Labour government to outlaw even British Resistance to the AZC — Brexit or no Brexit.

      • BigB says

        Vex

        I think we will get a more apposite test in the coming few days. Will JC continue to back his old mate Chris Wiiliamson – the “Jew bater” according to the AZC element? Williamson has consistently earned my respect as a man of courage and conviction. I’ve been waiting for the (Regev) orchestrated takedown. I don’t think I’ll have to wait any longer after ‘someone’ leaked footage of him speaking to a Momentum meeting.

        https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/chris-williamson-labour-has-been-too-apologetic-about-anti-semitism-1-9618191

        I think it is fair to say that actually existing socialism is socialism in name only. It is a mirror capitalism with a few social concessions thrown in. Concessions that may not even be deliverable under EU Treaty Law – if we remain in a permanent customs union – which is the basis of JC’s Quisling deal.

        • crank says

          Yes that will be the ultimate litmus test, for both of them.

          From a media critic’s perspective I wonder how the fake left Novaran circle will respond, as they have championed Williamson for the authentic voice that he is, yet have also consistently surrendered to the narrative that ‘Labour has an antisemitism problem’.

          • crank says

            Actually, check out Michael Walker’s twitter feed (Novara) for the best example I’ve read yet of how contemporary Left thinking ties itself up in knots trying to square the round peg of Jewish identity-zionism-racism.
            If, as a prefessed universalist, humanist and anti-racist, you try to defend a minority whose identity is rooted in ethnocentric racism, then at some point you are just going to contradict yourself under inquiry.
            Walker is more concerned about the ‘tone’ of Williamson’s comments than any factual basis, which should tell you all you need to know.

            The word made flesh in ‘a people’.
            Criticise the word and you criticise the people, they tell us.
            Problem.

        • vexarb says

          BigB, it’s crunch time, all coming together in a classice WW2 pincer movement; Chris Williamson being made to apologize same time as Parliament called to outlaw Hezb. But I think Williamson should have stood his ground re apology, and so should Corbyn re Hezb, because I believe this applause is significant of a ground swell that shows a sea change in public opinion:

          _It showed Mr Williamson receiving loud applause as he complained that the party had “given too much ground” to its critics._

          Read more at: https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/mp-chris-williamson-apologises-after-claiming-labour-is-too-apologetic-about-anti-semitism-1-9619334

            • Paul says

              It’s very disappointing. But it will be numbers that count and taking control of selection processes by using the vote. There is a lot of culling to be done but it’s made easier now to identify the fake Labour MP’s.

              • crank says

                Nah.
                The NEC suspended Williamson. There is a rotten culture of fascist appeasement throughout Labour bureaucracy, not just on the right of the PLP.
                For an MP like Chris to get suspended for nothing at all is a major crossing of the rubicon into a territory of hyper McCarthy-ist madness.
                For Chris to apologise is a defeat too much to bear in and of itself.
                All the media friendly ‘Lefties’ nod along in sober self contradictory agreement and block anyone who dares question their illogic.
                Many masks have slipped today.
                The time to fight back was long ago, and now the zionist lobby have walked all over the party. The members will be angry as fuck, but what can they do? Create a whole new machine from the ground up? Quit ? Stick it out as the whole project is dismantled before their very eyes.
                What a shituation..

  16. James Connolly says

    The logic of this backing for a 2nd referendum is difficult to interpret on many levels. Even if Corbyn genuinely wants one, it is not in his gift. Barely a quarter of Labour MPs want one (despite what the liberal media claim) and even if all Labour MPs voted for the amendment it would still require lots of Tory MPs to vote with them, which certainly won’t happen.
    So there isn’t going to be a 2nd referendum. All the attempt to get one will achieve is to antagonize voters in the 65% of Labour seats that voted to Leave. Nor will it appease the PLP, aka the Labour Right. As you rightly say Kit, stopping Brexit is not their priority. Their priority is stopping Corbyn, by whatever means.

    Here is an excellent analysis of the role of the Labour Right in British society..
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jeremy-gilbert/inevitable-division-politics-and-consequences-of-labour-split?fbclid=IwAR18MgjQnGXzy-bY5HZqF5Z8VwTrskKsOWkZgIBetFS6CJQt5eShFTzJSx8

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    • What an excellent article. It verbalises what I haven’t been able to.
      “It is clearly absurd, in objective historical terms, to blame Corbyn for Brexit, or to keep demanding that he ‘come out’ against it when his doing so would make no difference at all to the parliamentary reality (there is no majority in the house of commons for a people’s vote). But the members of this declining, delegitimated social elite have experienced both Brexit and Corbynism as part of exactly the same process; the process by which the people that they have governed and managed for a generation have turned around and rejected their authority and their world-view. Embracing the idea that Labour is institutionally antisemitic and racist, and that Brexit is Corbyn’s fault, are understandable psychosocial responses to the experience of this historical trauma. Such a response allows the members and partisans of this elite to tell themselves that they are defenders of liberal values, so that they do not have to face up to the fact that, in opposing Corbyn, they are defending nothing but their own sectional privileges and those of their corporate liege lords. What these stories are not is rational, descriptive accounts of any kind of objective social reality, that can be reasoned with politically or morally.

      This is the reason for the Orwellian illiberalism practiced by ‘liberals’.

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    • Maggie says

      I see you’ve picked up your information from the Conservative owned YouGov?
      Fact – The Majority voted to LEAVE the bureaucratic control of an oppressive regime, which was bleeding us financially and imposing laws upon us which we had never voted for, wanted to escape.
      Those voting to REMAIN were the career politicians, who wanted EU pensions etc, the dreamers, who thought a ‘forced marriage’ would bring us together (although after 50 years, we still have separate languages and need translators) and the sheep, who wanted to huddle together for protection FROM THE BIG BAD RED WOLF.
      Ffs put another record on…

  17. Lochearn says

    I wonder how many of you, including the writer, have seriously studied what is involved with Brexit. It is hugely complicated and probably beyond PHD level. Have any of you read through the considerable number of articles and comments at Naked Capitalism, for example? Yves Smith was right about Greece when she said that the EU held all the cards. Maybe she’s right about Brexit too. Have you watched 3 Blokes in a Pub talking Brexit, where one is an experienced trade negotiator? Here’s a flavour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sju9laLqeCo&t=2969s

    It’s one thing to dislike the EU and recognize it as a neoliberal vassal of the US. But it’s another to assume that leaving it is economically viable for the UK without having done some serious preparation over years. Have any of you thought where the money is going to come from if Corbyn is elected in a no-deal scenario? What with Toyota, Honda and Airbus gone? And many others to follow.

    Have any of you considered why part of the elites are so gung-ho about Brexit when their cash cow the City of London stands to lose a significant amount of business? We should recall that Cameron decided on a referendum a few days after the EU tax-avoidance regulations were being put forward for approval. Does this have anything to do with it? Could it be that the Right see an opportunity with Brexit to take away the few employment rights we have and reduce us to a state of absolute penury? How can we be on the same side as Jacob Rees-Mogg, Johnson and Farage? Something doesn’t add up.

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    • BigB says

      Yes is the answer. Read Bill Mitchell and Thomas Fazi’s “Reclaiming the State” for the answers. Fiscal and currency sovereignty are the keys to progessive socialism. What we want to finance is up to us, within reason (provided it provides employment …the Job Pledge being a key ingredient).

      As to the chaos: that has been weaponised against us. You may have heard of “iatrogenic disease” – physician created ill-health for profit – we have seen the bureaucratic version of intentional chaos.

      Though it will be brutal: no deal is still the best deal. Or we delay A50 in the hope the EU collapses. Neither is a good option …only don’t blame me: blame the bureaucracy on both sides of the channel. They have deliberately squandered our options in complete disdain for democratic sovereignty.

      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=36746

      See blogpost above for details of no deal being the best deal.

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      • Mr Shigemitsu says

        @BigB,

        If you are a follower of Bill Mitchell’s blog, you will also doubtless be aware from past articles that JMcD has no expressed intention whatsoever of acknowledging MMT, but, on the contrary, if elected, plans on maintaining neoliberal, govt-as-household narratives regarding budget deficits, and ‘taxation funds govt spending’ myths.

        It’s unclear where any salvation lies.

        • BigB says

          Mr Shigemitsu

          That’s Labour’s “fiscal rule” that is enshrined in the smallprint of the manifesto (if I remember correctly). When the tax return capital runs dry, rather than deficit spend, they will cease to spend. I call them deficit dummies – because they have been browbeaten by the Tories into accepting the logic of austerity.

          As an aside: McDonnell and JC signed an Early Day Motion for a return to the “Bradbury Pound” – which was sovereign debt free currency issued to fund WW1. Now they are both fully “pro-business”, pro-EU, neoliberal acolytes. The only thing they want to inflate is the minority’s assets.

          I can only concur with your closing remark – it is hard to see… I’m still actively looking though..

  18. Steve Cooke says

    This is actually the best play from a bad hand. Do nothing and May presents Parliament with her take it or leave it Brexit deal. This means Labour are cursed if do or complicit in running the UK off a cliff if they don’t. The Government and Parliament are dysfunctional and Labour returning power to the people (here Labour members) means Labour choose a bitter pill of their own design rather than sup from the Tory poisoned chalice

  19. Corbyn has shared a platform with FSA head choppers. He supports the Stop the War Coalition, who support the Muslim Brotherhood in Britain. He’s condemned Assad in the HOC, claiming he used chemical weapons and has a terrible human rights record. He lets regime change interventionist Alison McGovern spout her anti-Assad lies and propaganda in the HOC.

    The Syrians do not want to know that creep…and he only has one vote which is zero consolation.

    Labour are leading with “For the many, not the few” on their website. Will a Corbyn Government reject “not the few?” (The ruling class) Will they refuse “not the few?” Will they ignore and abandon “not the few?” Never.

    British Governments are Imperialist Governments through and through. Will Corbyn break off “the special military relationship” with the US Imperialists? Never. Will they leave NATO or stop voting for the US at the UN? Never.

    At home a British Government will bury their horrific human rights record overseas and issue assorted sugar coated pills to keep the public sweet and quiet on the domestic front.

    It will be business as usual, a failing economy, austerity and food banks. And that is if they are lucky and the economy doesn’t go through the floorboards in the Autumn.

    I see no evidence to suggest a Corbyn Government will be capable of doing a fraction of what their groupies say they will do.

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  20. Good article Kit, I completely agree. I posted this on the open thread, but it is relevant here.
    From an economic perspective, the Euro isn’t tenable long term. The only thing that will save it is federation. So countries outside the Eurozone like Poland and UK will, at some point, be asked to join or leave. However, federation brings it’s own problems, a lot of countries reject it, just as Britain would reject it, so there won’t be a European Union of 27, there will (probably) be a federation of around 6 countries and a second tier of the rest, complete with new trade deals giving preferential treatment to the federation. But that brings problems, will Germany still be able to export its unemployment to the poorer nations? If not, it won’t be acceptable to the German people, WHO CURRENTLY HAVE BY FAR THE BEST DEAL IN THE EU (that can’t be replicated elsewhere).

    Which ever way you look at it, there is trouble ahead and I can’t see any scenario where we are better off staying.
    The remainer reliance on social democracy rescuing Europe from itself is naive to say the least. Germany will never be anything other than very conservative, the eastern states are moving steadily towards fascism, all the rest have right wing governments apart from Portugal (even Greece is by definition right wing because of enforced supply side economics). As for future members, Ukraine is already full blooded fascist and the EU has neoliberalism written in law that would require the scrapping of every treaty from Maastricht onward.

    Long term the EU has no future. I have just listed a few political/economic problems without going into the social deprivations caused to southern states by fixed budgets favourable to none except Germany. Then there’s the geopolitical direction of travel and a very unhealthy reliance on American foreign policy, NATO strategy and expansionism. Remainers like to paint Brexit as a right wing ERG project……it isn’t, its common sense.

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  21. Betrayed planet says

    I do not agree with the sentiments of this article. I have the utmost respect for Corbyn who has against the odds managed to hold on to his position despite the onslaught from the criminal fraternity in this country. He has defended the people unflinchingly, he has pointed out the hypocrisy and lies of the MSM and elite faux liberal lying politicians and Corporate State. On Venezuela, on Palestine, on Lybia and Iraq, on Syria and just about any country that the lying Western Elite set their sights on, he has always voted against violence and Imperialism. He has without exception been on the right side of history.
    Such is this the campaign against him that it has become almost comical were it not so serious, the revolting Guardian as always siding with the Tory Netanyahu machine, the rapacious greed and Corporate State determined to strip the country of its few remaining assets.
    The lack of critical thinking skills is evident in the masses as a direct result of a now broken educational system along with a lack of care or insight into our perilous situation as we trundle the well worn path to domination and slavery.
    Our schools, NHS, prisons, infrastructure, social care, forests, climate crisis etc etc all up for grabs by the top tier while the public keep on voting for the kleptocracy to finish the job. All of these issues are on Corbyns agenda to try to claw back the criminality which has been obvious for decades. And what do the public do? Well they believe the very thieves who are daily fleecing them because they are told to believe them, propaganda doesn’t seem to be a very well understood phenomenon.
    I was in my veg patch yesterday, my skin got quite red in February! Another issue Corbyn wants to address is his promised green revolution to try to begin to deal with the increasingly obvious climate crisis which is now on course to wipe out vast swaths of arable land, food, people and ultimately will destroy our children’s future.
    Critical thinking is dead, that is the direct result of Bernays psychopathic plan which has worked a treat. We are now like sheep calmly walking to our demise with no clue that it is actually happening.

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    • Corbyn, to my mind, is the only politician not playing at Party Politics. He and his cabinet can see ahead to the possible outcome of May’s outrageous ultimatum: ‘My deal or o deal.’ Far from ‘caving in’ Corbyn is putting the country first. Why are supposedly critical thinkers so quick to condemn and refuse to see or read Corbyn’s actual statement? I despair!

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  22. Fair dinkum says

    Viewed from the antipodes it appears that Corbyn has the support of many working class people, especially the more erudite amongst them.
    If he can work through the Machiavellian machinations of the slimy status quo he could emerge covered in glory.
    Either the shitkickers rise or the arselickers rule.

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  23. Cane Toad says

    Corbyn like May has been chosen to keep the ambiguity flowing because at some date in the future the current Monarch will be no more and either her son Charles or his child will take up the crown. The UK needs to be legally isolated from the EU during the handover so that the EU does not get a chance to grab the far flung commonwealth jewels…tax havens..principalities ect.

    What is more the UK has done all it can to take down the US. To hurry slong the demise of the US empire. If the US falls the UK wants to reclaim its commonwealth of states and form those chattels into a economic trading block. So the UK is trying to keep legal ambiguity in place for that also. The UK sees that happening in the early to mid 2020’s and have commisionrd two aircraft carriers to use as gun boat diplomatic corps to enforce suzerienty.

    This holding pattern will therefore continue until the US falls and the monarchic succession is completed.

    Corbyn and May are twins.

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    • Maggie says

      @ Cane Toad,
      Who says Aussies have no sense of humour?
      lol.

  24. Johnny Nineball says

    Been reading predictions of Corbyn’s demise from left, right, and center for years. Seems a bit hyperbolic for what you (passingly) acknowledge as a reiteration of an existing policy. That reiteration can be read as a mocking rebuke of the pointless breakaway faction rather than a concession to them.

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    • crank says

      It does seem that Lexiteers have been as quick as the MSM to interpret last night’s press realease as an eventual capitulation (to either ‘the establishment’ or ‘reason’).
      PV has been an option since Sept conference though. It has been kept back to the very end, for principled reasons, and only now will be put forward in the face of the Tories effectively holding guns to the heads of small children and saying, “go on, make me do it”.
      The press release simply explains the situation – that if the Lab deal proposal is rejected then what else can Labour do, within their current political limitations, to prevent the options of a May Deal or No Deal, exept put it to the people? I don’t read Galloway or Kit making any suggestions for alternative courses of action. Lab do not have a controlling majority in Parliament, the Tingers threaten to grow and support whatever the Tories want, so what else is left as an option?.
      It is the old conflict of principle versus politics. In principle, I would say get out of anything EU related (NOW !) regardless of the short to medium term consequences. Could I as a leader take the country through a no deal Brexit? Corbyn as a democrat is, I think, genuinely trying to plot a course that represents those who put him into that position, within the limits of what he can do, in the situation he is in.

      Overall, I think that Corbyn has made some fatally stupid decisions and has effectively gone to a knife fight armed with a toothbrush. But I still believe that it is not so much that he is now ‘folding’, but that power in the system cannot be won except by determined strategy and some hardcore realism about the lack of good faith in one’s political opponents.

      Corbyn epitaph : ‘Too nice for politics’.

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  25. Francis Lee says

    It is not just the Labour Party, it is social-democracy across Europe and the Democrats in America which have totally collapsed. The centrist centre-left, centre-right blob representing international uber-globalist liberalism seems in control of the institutions of state, the media, as well as international institutions, IMF, EU, NATO, WORLD BANK, OECD are all glued together by an overarching global elite whose writ is imposed by fake political representations, prime of which have been social democratic parties. I suppose it all began with Callaghan’s speech in the late 70s which essentially ended the Keynes/Beveridge consensus and committed Labour to monetarism and austerity. The policy switch was taken up with alacrity by Tony Blair and since that date Labour has never looked back and has transmuted into its opposite: a globalist, Russophobic, vassalised, pro-EU, pro-NATO, idenditarian, post-modern, middle-class, liberal-utopian party, essentially indistinguishable from any other political formation.

    First Corbyn caves in to the Zionist lobby, then to the Remainer lobby, and almost certainly would cave in to the EU economic lobby regarding his economic policies. But then Corbyn is a typical social-democratic and this is what social-democrats do. The whole philosophy and practise of this political philosophy which had some basis in the immediate post-war period is now utterly defunct; this has been obvious since the Blairite phenomenon. We urgently need a new politics.

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    • vexarb says

      @Francis Lee: “The whole philosophy and practice of this political philosophy which had some basis in the immediate post-war period is now utterly defunct;”

      Coincidence? I was thinking the same thing last night, a propos a mention of Social Democrats on a previous thread. I loved Willi Brandt. But even Willi admitted that the failing of his party was, “We did not do enough to resist them on the street”.

      Social Democracy was the product of a milder, gentler wind blowing from the Capitalist quarter, lest the plebs follow the Russian / Chinese / Cuban model and go full Communist. Communist Greece was fragile enough to be put down with Anglo gun power; but Russia, China, Cuba and YugoSlavia were so tough that the rich decided to install a temporary comfort zone of social welfare and Social Democracy in which the plebs could be gently weaned off the idea of claiming their full share of the social cake while absorbing a drip feed of anti-Communist and then anti-Socialist propaganda. This policy triumphed in Thatcher, Reagan and their countless imitators. Capitalism red in tooth and claw is now grown so powerful that it openly declares war against society on behalf of the 1% or the 0.1% or the 6 Families. Resistance will mean moving outside the Social Democrat middle class and aspirant middle class comfort zone.

      • Mr Shigemitsu says

        Regardless of whether or not the people feel ready to move away from their middle class comfort zone, the middle class comfort zone is doing a very good job of moving away from them.

      • Francis Lee says

        Well, Willi Brandt was originally a member of the German SAP (Socialist Workers Party) in 1930. Along with others including Orwell who was a member of the Indepedent Labour Party (ILP) and the Spanish Pardido Obrero Unificacion Marxista) Workers Party of Marxist Unity, which were all part of the so-called Two and a half International, which was a grouping between the Communist Third International and the Social-democratic Second International. Brandt joined the SPD in 1946.

  26. harry stotle says

    Corbyn is an atavistic figure, a reminder perhaps that democracy was once possible.

    But the establishment no longer tolerates democracy surely this is the more significant issue?

    Yes, we can argue about which forum we prefer our ideas to be ignored in but essentially the underlying power dynamic remains intact – a potent financial / intelligence elite that simply get on with the job of asset stripping while the public wring their hands.

    Essentially the public have become shroud wavers with barely any discernible influence on the hegenomy that controls our political institutions, the media, or many aspects of our daily life.

    The Corbyn phenomena was always a David and Goliath situation and I don’t think we can be too hard on him now that he can’t even expect loyalty from Blairites masquerading as Labour MPs.

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    • UreKismet says

      I agree with what you write, I also believe that correctly leaving the EU could be an effective move for the UK but, the best part of the EC/EU for the UK right now was the bit that the mail/telegraph/express alleged opinion leaders have always moaned the most about.
      The eu puts the UK at least partially into a written constitutional framework – that is why rees-mogg etc are agitating so much for ‘no deal’ they envisage a britain where it might be a jolly wheeze to legitimate slavery, or incarcerate those parasites who have the gall to disagree with them plus of course execute those criminals who try to bribe voters by seizing the assets they have so deceitfully purloined from the populace and returning them to the commons.
      Laugh if you imagine I am exaggerating but unfortunately I’m not. Of course it is right to leave a neolib clusterfuck but not before citizens have concrete protections put in place.

      One of the things we have learned over the last few decades is that as wonderful as a ratchet is for hoisting a car, when it is used to move a population into oppression by continuous pressure from tories occasionally interrupted by a neolib pawl dropping down and holding a society in stasis, moving neither right nor left until the right re-gathers its strength & purpose, a ratchet is the model for an awful tool of human oppression which must be destroyed.
      Corbyn may seem ‘atavistic’ to you, but if brits are to stand any chance at all of getting thru the next quarter century without becoming enslaved, Mr Corbyn is essential. The tory lever is simply too long and too powerful to be defeated right now by something as nebulous as an angry population, but the pawl can be smashed by well aimed social resistance.
      IMO the reason the graun and all the rest of the pretend opposition vilify Mr Corbyn continually and deceitfully, is because the arseholes believe this to be true. Their anathema to Jeremy Corbyn is as relentless as it is deceitful.

      A Corbyn led Labour party can push back effectively enough to destroy the axis upon which this attempted fascist coup depends.
      I cannot see anything else which could do that and as much as I know that parts of the english labour party are under the control of corrupt greedies, zionist scum and fork tongued spruikers. I reckon that Corbyn and co are the best chance short of the revolution many of us know is required, but which cannot yet be sold to our sisters and brothers for ensuring as many as possible get a fair shake of the stick.
      Any other course of action, I believe is simply giving up hope; condemning not just england but all humans to centuries of misery followed by extinction.
      Yep it would be great if a successful opposition came from somewhere less hypocritical, but right now there is no chance of that

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  27. Frankly Speaking says

    “It’s important to remember that being anti-EU was always a traditionally socialist position”

    Far from it Kit. The Social Democrats across Europe combined their efforts to give hundreds of millions of people an unparalled quality of life. Since then the neoliberals are on the rise and the Eurozone should be a project only for a handful of countries, but it can all be countered by a return to traditional social democratic principles, the core of the European project.

    The ones who are anti-EU are the hard right and hard left, the latter not being socialists, rather Trotskyists and other provocateurs and anarchists.

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    • mark says

      “……a return to traditional social democratic principles.”

      Look – a flying pig!

      All we will get is more austerity, a neoliberal financial looting kleptocracy, with a bit of identity politics thrown in as a distraction. The Guardian will squeal with delight as a Cabinet full of women, gays and trannies bombs a few countries and sells off the NHS. How diverse! How wonderful!

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      • Frankly Speaking says

        That’s not social democracy Mark, and the Guardian is not a social democratic paper, it’s a neoliberal rag.

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        • Makropulos says

          Once again – the fabled “social democracy”, pink, snorting and soaring far above us.

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        • mark says

          That is what passes for “social democracy” today. Not employment protection and worker participation, just financial looting, ever widening equality, austerity and food banks, dismantling of welfare and public services, jingoistic militarism and shilling for whatever wars come along, while proving how liberal and progressive you are by campaigning for gay weddings and toilets for trannies.

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    • Atalanta69 says

      What you are saying about the origins and intent of the EU is, simply, factually incorrect. I suggest you read about the true history of the EU rather the prettified version we get in the MSM. You could start with reading Jean Monnet’s ‘Memoirs’.

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      • Some Random Passer-by says

        I haven’t met a remainer yet who can tell me who Walter Hallstein was.

        In or out, up or down, left or right…always know your history.

    • Francis Lee says

      ” The Social Democrats across Europe combined their efforts to give hundreds of millions of people an unparalled quality of life.”

      Hmmm, I think this is called cognitive dissonance. Yes, quality of life in Greece, Italy, Hungary, Latvia, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, with austerity, unemployment, mass influxes of ‘refugees’ providing nuclear bases for the coming war in Europe with Russia. If the social democrats are doing such a good job at providing hundreds of millions of people an ‘unparalled quality of life’ how come their electoral base is collapsing in country after country?

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      • G D'ARCY says

        Well my understanding is support for the EU has risen, perhaps people can see the garbage it’s creating with brexit

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      • mark says

        That’s because everybody is old, racist, bigoted, stupid and uneducated, and generally deplorable.

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  28. Jim Scott says

    Are those criticising Corbyn for considering a new referendum now that a no deal split is the outcome, against the public being able to have their say in full knowledge that there will be a pretty tough period of adjustment and that the original vote was heavily effected by USA and corporate based interference like that of Cambridge Analytica. Surely whether the split occurs or not, the principal matter is how to ensure the lives of all British people can be improved. I doubt being drawn into the sphere of the USA and organizations like the Atlantic Alliance who are hell bent on destroying democratic freedoms and protections will be a great result for the UK.

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    • mark says

      And I thought it was Putin who had stolen the referendum!
      Well I never.

      If this is true, and Jezza and Labour do facilitate a 2nd referendum, I will never vote Labour again.
      Probably just stay at home.
      Tory Party Mark 1 and Tory Party Mark 2.
      What’s the point?

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      • Frankly Speaking says

        Marc – It’s crystal clear to me and many others that Brexit is an Atlantacist / right wing project. For them, Europe became too large and successful and most importantly, is showing signs of independence from the Atlantic “alliance”. They want to divide it and conquer it, each country weakened yet remaining under the control of Washington as NATO members.

        Those on the left who see it as anything else are either sadly deluded, or opportunists hoping to somehow wrestle Brexit Britain out of the hands of the right wing; they cannot and will not.

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        • mark says

          The EU was originally a Nazi project that was taken over and pushed by Uncle Sam. It was created to serve US interests. Why would the US want to break it up? The EU is run by its servile satraps who spend most of their lives grovelling on their bellies to Washington. The EU has always obediently fallen into line and followed their instructions, Venezuela being just the latest example.

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        • Seamus Padraig says

          Well, now that you’ve left the EU, it’s time to leave NATO as well. Why not give true national sovereignty a chance?

    • Some Random Passer-by says

      And what about keeping registration open for another 36 hours after someone pulled the plug with an hour or so to go?

      Both sides were bent. Both sides were fined. What matters is what you and I decided. Not the propaganda associated with it.

      How did you research you choice? I gave up with the news as it was obvious they were only interested in the rutting stags of Johnson & Gove. There was nothing on the Irish question, Euratom or open skies to name just a few.

      I’m a thickie, so I went for history. How and why the EU appeared. I didn’t like what I found. In fact, for a while, I was quite sick with worry because of the conspiracy I had unearthed…Nazi Germany (Walter Hallstein etc), IG Farben, Mussolini’s definition of fascism…(Did you know that business leaders were released early from punishment (slave labour etc) to help build the EU?)

      It’s almost like we weren’t supposed to win…

      One thing I’ve really struggled with is EU provided infrastructure. Let’s say a by-pass.

      EU gives a massive payout. Great. Or is it? Who actually receives the money? Usually some corporation.

      So…

      1) How much of the money actually reaches the local community?
      2) How many locals are employed by said corporation?
      3) How many locals gain skills and work experience during the construction?
      4) How much of the cash hits local suppliers of various types (tools, cakes, ciggies, papers etc etc)?

      I’ve searched for over two years, and I still cannot find anything past the initial payout to whichever corporation has hit the jackpot.

      What’s the point in a new railway station or flyover when your town centre is dying on its feet?

    • Mike says

      As far as i understand the history the Atlantic Council were integral in the setting up of the EU. Just as they are centre stage in promoting regime change in Venezuela.

  29. UreKismet says

    I haven’t been a member of any Labour Party anywhere for decades, the last time was as a member of the ALP when I lived there, but I resigned after Hawke and Abeles used scabs to break the pilot’s strike. I don’t have much truck with the enemies of the people who coagulate in Labour Parties but I do reckon Corbyn is an exception.

    I’m more sanguine about this inevitability in the face of tory mendacity than this article,
    Mr Corbyn’s leadership has always had grassroots democracy as its foundation keystone. The Milliband probably introduced elections across the membership as a way of cementing zionist control of the party and it backfired badly since on a per capita basis 600,000 aware citizens are always going to defeat 60 rich old gameplayers, a simple truth which the zionists still refuse to acknowledge much less act upon.

    The consequence of Mr Corbyn’s principled adherence to grassroots democracy is that he is bound by the motion at the last Labour Party national conference which instructed the leadership to use negotiation to gain the best brexit outcome until the point where that became clearly untenable.
    Few predicted May’s irrational intransigence so most of the delegates had assumed that there would be an opportunity to obtain a brexit agreement which included safeguards for the many long before March 2019.
    That has not happened and yes Mr Corbyn does have to pay heed to the traitors but not for the reasons this writer intimates.
    The sad fact is that at least 30% of current Labour MP’s are entirely unfit to be MPs in the Labour Party. Rules are coming into play which should give constituencies more power to select and deselect candidates. The current crew of deserters/quislings are only the more obvious candidates for constituency deselection, there will be many many others and if Corbyn doesn’t tread very carefully, up to 100 of the parasitic toads could split and in doing so make the tory brexit mess all about the Labour Party.
    So Mr Corbyn has left it as late as possible (following May’s last cynical procrastination over the weekend – delaying the watchamacallit, meaningful vote) to intimate a referendum could be considered. He will maneuver as best he can (with a mob of undemocratic greedy toads deceitfully alleging they are behind him) to avoid a parliamentary motion on the ‘second vote’ until May reveals she has nothing, zilch, nada in her hand by which time a referendum will be irrelevant because no deal is about to happen and all decent hands will be needed to the pumps to save englanders from their credulousness.
    No-one with a still functioning brain imagines a 2nd referendum will deliver an outcome any different to the 1st. The South East will vote 4 remain and the rest of england will vote to leave. The parliament at westminister has never ever taken the views of the original britons of Wales, Scotland & Ireland into account and there is no evidence to suggest that will suddenly change now.

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  30. mark says

    Very shrewd analysis, Kit.
    I made similar points on the last thread, but not as cogently as yourself.
    I see some similarities between Jezza and Trump.
    I’m not a great fan of the latter and disagree with most of what he’s done, particularly Iran/ Venezuela/ Jerusalem.
    But he seems to have had some good instincts, at least initially.
    Scaling back on the foreign military adventures, rejecting globalism, dealing with domestic problems instead.
    Like Jezza, he was undermined and subject to vitriolic smear campaigns from Day One. Russiagate and other tropes. Like the smear campaigns to undermine Corbyn.
    Like Corbyn, he had to appoint people who were trying to sabotage his policies, to the extent of treason and sedition.
    Trump had to change direction under the pressure.
    So has Jezza.
    Though he has been under extreme pressure from the Blairite Backstabbers, you are right in criticising his appeasement. Nothing will ever satisfy these people and he would have done better to stand his ground and damn the consequences. Caving in doesn’t even bring a temporary respite. Having said that, he has done well even to survive to this point. But to survive to what purpose?

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  31. I have no illusions about the Labour Party, I resigned from it over their backing for the First Gulf War. But as I understand the decision has not yet been made and the Labour Party will decide on Wednesday. However this does make Corbyn appear a weak leader even if it is merely a tactic to neuter the neutered. Which is pointless.

    There are many aspects of his political thinking which have exposed this, not least of which his hopelessly flawed position on Syria. However he is able to connect with ordinary people and has completely rattled the establishment because of this. So much so that Richard Dear but Strangelove has been wheeled out of retirement [and the Skripal project] onto the backstage. Despite being proven an inveterate liar in the run up to the Second Gulf War, in an attempt to signal to the anti-socialists that Brexit is still a Neo-con Establishment project.

    As Kit says this announcement by Corbyn will only alienate those who oppose the EU on socialist principals as well as the rabid Brexiteers who will now rally behind a Britain for British people [whatever that may mean – usually racist] Tory banner. Sadly as Kit also says it detracts from the real issues at stake here “..undo the evil of [the] austerity”.

    And the other aspect which is ingrained in Globalist and of course British politics, “it’s a class thing!”

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  32. Paul says

    But knowing it’s never going to happen, given Labour rebellions (if not a free vote) and Tory opposition, gives Corbyn the advantage here. It was never going to get a Commons majority anyway. It’s the same policy that’s been around for months so exactly why the MSM chose to announce it as a Big Development is far from clear. Every headline this morning is the same ‘Corbyn backs 2nd Referundum’. The BBC seem to have started it and they were also quickest off the mark with ‘I feel betrayed’ pieces from ‘outraged’ Leave voters. At last the right get a chance to smear Labour with Brexit shit.

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  33. DunGroanin says

    Kit i refer you to my comment in the previous article which i posted as you piece came up! I disagree with your conclusion.

    The Funny Tingers are even more irrelevant and they will never form their Corbynite destroying SDP3! Which was doa and is now doomed to oblivion – they will not snatch the new Labour voters.

  34. Possibly apocryphal but Chinese premier Zhou En Lai was asked in 1972 what he thought the impact of the French Revolution had been. “It’s too early to tell,” he replied. I’ve seen lots of stuff about how Corbyn is “finished” today: I saw it in 2015/2016/2017/2018 (& in The Guardian every day) and at every point it proved to have either been pessimism, surrender to propaganda or wishful thinking. One of these days the naysayers must be right – or so the law of statistics suggests: except that even the law of chance doesn’t bear that out; Corbyn is just as likely to survive today as he was yesterday. Even more positively, Corbyn’s choices are not based on tossing coins but on analysing the political processes and balance of forces at work at any given moment. There is another, probably apocryphal, story about Stalin sending an emissary to the pope to ask the Catholic church to join the anti-fascist front: “the pope’s against you, Joe,” reported back the envoy. “And how many tanks does he have?” Joe responded. Finally we must turn to characters like Ho Chi Minh, Nelson Mandela and the many who never emerged from prison or who were assassinated (Thomas Sankara, Patrice Lumumba, Malcolm X, Salvador Allende, Che Guevara; ad infinitum) but nonetheless never lost sight of the prize: the liberation of humanity from slavery and stupidity. Or as Gramsci put it : “pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.” & “The truth is revolutionary.” In Corbyn we trust – right now, there is no alternative.

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    • Francis Lee says

      ‘In Corbyn we trust.” More fool you. I note that TINA (‘there is no alternative’) is back in town. Yes there is no alternative to a political party which is incapable of change. That sounds like an abject surrender to me. But of course it is the default social-democratic position. How many times is that refrain going to be trotted out. Callaghans speech in the late 70s started the capitulation. As I recall it went something like this:

      ”We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step.”

      Labour converted – permanently – to neoliberalism and austerity. Blair took the baton and ran with it. The Labour party is a lost cause, dead as a dodo. And yet there are those who still put their faith in this mummified corpse.

      Presumably they consider themselves to be ‘realists’ in spite of all the evidence. ‘In many instances, in fact, social-democracy, is no more than the theoretical expression of the scepticism of the disillusioned, of the outwearied, of those who have lost their faith; it is the socialism of non-socialists, with a socialist past.”

      Roberto Michels – Political Parties 1911

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    • chaize says

      Well, thank God for a sensible comment in the midst of confusion.

      • chaize says

        Note: responding to labrebisgalloise, NOT To Francis Lee.

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