126

BREXIT: ‘The People Have Spoken – The Bastards’


Frank Lee

Image source.

The whole brouhaha around Brexit has amply demonstrated the under-hand tactics used by the losing side post-2016 referendum. There seems no dirty trick that the PTB and their useful idiots will not employ in their ongoing campaign to keep the UK in the prison of the EU and keep the sinking ship of the EU afloat.

The counter-revolution campaign contained of 4 discrete but interconnected segments.

  1. Project fear: This was successfully used in the Scottish Independence Referendum and has been rolled out again in an attempt to reverse the Leave vote in UK’s EU referendum campaign. After the Leave vote result, media immediately went into (hysterical) overdrive with its tales of woe and chaos regarding the ‘inevitable’ collapse of the UK economy. Visions were conjured up of empty super-market shelves, mass unemployment, capital flight, food riots etcetera. The end of civilization as we know it. A notable example of conjecture and scare-mongering being presented as hard ‘facts.’
  2. Disinformation: The ‘experts’ from the political and media class assured us that life in the EU was wonderful and full of promise and if we only gave it a little more time it would become a veritable Shangri la.
  3. Enter stage left: the great and the good from the pseudo-left, social-democratic establishment, overwhelmingly in the case of the Labour party, who have assured us that the EU could be transformed – when all the evidence pointed to the contrary – and become an instrument of progress, prosperity and enlightenment. This policy was given broader exposure with Diem2025 the brainchild of one Yanis Varoufakis. According to the theory, nation states no longer existed, and reforms should start at the supra-national level. But as a matter of fact, the nation-state is precisely the arena which meaningful politics can and does take place. According to the Remain and Reform school, we apparently need a Europe-wide supra-national strategy – based upon what policies exactly? We must assume, according to the party line, that the nation-state is either dead or dying, this being an article of faith of the globalist left and the Washington Consensus. Strange bedfellows?
  4. Confusion: When the population has been softened-up and generally addled by the non-stop propaganda offensive waged by the media – private and state – they will tend to opt for the status quo. Clinging on to the wet-nurse in fear of something new and untested. A second vote is to now been mooted by the PTB, spuriously designated the ‘peoples’ vote, as if the first Referendum somehow wasn’t – and this has been massively endorsed by the Labour party membership and pretty much universally by the PLP. Ergo, the policy the ‘left internationalists’ is one of inter alia ‘strengthening democracy’ – all very noble.

However, the crucially important issue of the neo-liberal policy tripod: the three freedoms of movement – capital, labour, commodities – remains in place, political change will not take place. And provided the institutional infrastructure of globalized capitalism – the IMF, WTO, World Bank, the EU are overseeing and enabling the EU’s neoliberal project, economic and political change will not take place.

It is not the shackles of nationalism that give rise to the bureaucratic monstrosity which is the EU but precisely the opposite. The neo-liberal imperatives of open borders, liberalized commodity markets, liberalized capital accounts, abandonment of exchange rate controls, flexible labour markets and freedom of movement of labour, provide the theoretical and political under-pinning of the whole structure. Unless these political/ideological roadblocks are addressed the status quo will continue and continue to deteriorate.

In terms of alliance building, political convergence between states cannot be constructed at regional (for example the EU) or even less so at global levels even if it is not achieved firstly at the level of nations. Because whether we like it or not, nations define and manage concrete realities and challenges, and it is only at these levels that changes in the social and political balance of forces to the advantage of the popular classes will or will not occur. Changes at the regional and global level may reflect national advances and certainly facilitate them – but nothing more. In short the move is from local to national and finally to supra-national, not the other way around.

In order to stop the onward march of globalist neoliberalism governments and states must regain control of their economies and politics. There is no single way to achieve this critical goal, but without it hemispheric co-operation will remain little more than an empty rhetorical flourish. Moreover, everywhere electorates are looking to governments to be a counterweight to footloose corporations. It is this intuitive perception to rein-in markets that will increasingly occupy centre-stage between pro and anti the coming decade. For social-political movements the nation-state continues to be the chosen instrument for the organization of society. It cannot be any other way. However much social institutions will have to adapt to new global pressures, what is not in doubt is that the nation-state remains the crucible for equality seeking movements the world over. Efficiency, profitability and competitiveness have not won the hearts and minds of the peoples worldwide, nor are they likely to do so; precisely the opposite in fact.

Reform of the EU, which I understand to be the goal of the campaign of pro-EU aligned leftist faction fails to take into consideration the fact that the EU cannot be reformed since its whole ideological structure and constitution is built upon neo-liberal technocratic assumptions which can clearly be identified in the interior belief-systems of the bureaucracy, and consequently the daily practise and deliberations of internal institutions explicitly designed on a neoliberal model and cemented by legal statutes have made such changes impossible.

But such reasoned arguments were ignored by the Remainer berserkers, as they screeched: ‘’Smash the whole EU referendum farce with a second referendum.” The ‘farce’ meaning of course an outcome which the Remainers didn’t like. Well of course this is pretty much par for the course for EU electoral practise: If at first you don’t succeed, then simply repeat the playbook instructions until you get the right result, which is to say the result which suits the political/economic status quo.

Regardless of the pros and cons of EU membership I don’t think I have ever seen such a blatant attempt at the repudiation of universal suffrage as this. It seems to have now become fashionable and acceptable to question the whole basis of democratic electoral practise with the soi-disant elite – the elite which leads from the rear – actually openly questioning the validity of what it took a hundred years to establish, from 1832 until 1928.

I didn’t particularly like it when the Tories were elected in 1979, 1983,1987, 1992 and 2015 but I never and ceteris paribus, never would have questioned the legitimacy of their electoral triumph. Perhaps we should have staged a coup, Ukrainian style, and overthrown the democratically elected government and then had another election, come to think of it why bother with elections at all, after all you might lose.

There seems to be a real problem with left Remainers, including the soft-lefts which incidentally didn’t even allow a discussion on the issue. But democracy is not a la carte. Mess with the system and you open up a Pandora’s Box of baleful possibilities. Possibly and at some future date an election which returns a candidate/party to their liking may also be repudiated. In which case where do you go from there? Answer nowhere since it was always a possibility after the initial precedent had been established; and when election results become merely provisional or advisory, then genuine democracy is hollowed out and becomes a ritual, part of the political spectacle which in no way challenges the structures of power and privilege.

Universal suffrage and electoral practise are not conditional they are absolute. Democracy is table d’hôtel or it is nothing. The Remainer bloc seem to have undergone three identifiable ‘moments’ (see below) in their fury of not getting their own way.

Moment 1. Bertolt Brecht made the point after the East Germany rising in 1953, that the Communist government complained that they had done so much for the people and how ungrateful the people were. Brecht’s acerbic reply was that “the people should be dissolved and another elected.” That was the Remainers Brechtian moment. Bronze medal.

Moment 2 came the Augustian moment. St. Augustine who intoned: “Lord give me chastity and celibacy but not yet.” Translated into Remainerspeak it would read: Lord give me invocation of article 50, but not yet. Silver Medal.

Moment 3. Finally, there was the Richard Tuck moment: “The people have spoken, the bastards.” –Dick Tuck and American politician’s concession speech following his loss in the 1966 California State Senate election “The people have spoken, the bastards.” Gold Medal.

Gold medal therefore to be awarded to the Remainers for their characterisation of the Leave vote – some 17.4 million of the electorate – as ‘bastards’.

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Categories: Brexit, empire watch, EU, latest, UK
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Roger G Lewis
Roger G Lewis
Sep 5, 2019 11:29 AM

This remains one of the best analysis’ of The Brexit question.
Quoted from it in April and did so again today.
As Tweets rain in from the second Miller case.
https://twitter.com/JoshuaRozenberg/status/1169554807855681536
Time for a Bozz and Jezz Unity Government for a Sovereign Parliament. #GrubStreetJournal #Brexit #GovtNatUnity #BoznJezzLove
https://longhairedmusings.wordpress.com/2019/09/05/time-for-a-bozz-and-jezz-unity-government-for-a-sovereign-parliament-grubstreetjournal-brexit-govtnatunity-boznjezzlove/

billymark007
billymark007
Apr 5, 2019 11:08 AM

You really make it appear really easy together with your presentation however I in finding this matter to be really one thing which I feel I might by no means understand. It kind of feels too complicated and very vast for me.

wardropper
wardropper
Apr 4, 2019 6:59 PM

I mention this Mark Twain quote often, but only because it needs to be memorized by those searching for a viable future for western civilization: Almost everything written and said about our elections overlooks his wise comment, made a heck of a long time ago: “If voting made any difference, they would never let us do it”.
That said, we should expect to be stuck with the results of any election until irrefutable proof of meddling is on the table.
It is also, however, perfectly rational to accuse certain people of compromising elections by having family ties to the manufacturers of computerized voting machines, etc. etc. …

Salford Lad
Salford Lad
Apr 4, 2019 5:20 PM

The issue of EU membership is simply one of Sovereignty, the ability to control our own nations politics and economy.
We are as EU members ruled by an unelected cabal of bureaucrats. We can not be rid of them as things stand.
We can change our British Govt at a General Election, if we are displeased by their performance, We cannot change the EU bureaucrat system democratically.
There is a EU Parliament, which is a fig leaf of democracy. MEP’s can neither initiate legislation or amend it, but are ensconced in well paid sinecures to keep their mouths shut and go along with the illusion of democracy.

Mucho
Mucho
Apr 5, 2019 12:55 AM
Reply to  Salford Lad

Check this fascinating interview out with Paul Craig Roberts, a former US government insider under Reagan.

He explains that the EU’s true role is a tool of Washington, set up by the CIA, to control Europe via one entity (as opposed to having to go around bribing and blackmailing 27 seperate governments) and also to use the EU as a weapon against Russia, hence why the US was so keen to introduce the Eastern Bloc to the community.
So much of what he said in this interview still holds water today, even though it was made before Brexit

stevehayes13
stevehayes13
Apr 4, 2019 5:04 PM

Democracy lies in the hands of the losers: if they do not accept the legitimacy of the result, they destroy democracy.

Wazdo
Wazdo
Apr 4, 2019 4:24 PM

Why has no one mention hatred? Hatred is beautiful, self affirming, so satisfying and so easy to create: the Sun, the Mail, the Express, Times and Telegraph spew it out on a daily basis. Hating people is so easy, just ask Tommy Robinson. From the manual worker and his “Nah I hate fucking foreigners and their fucking foreign food! Fuck ’em all off and let us fuck off as well!” To the upper class twit and his “I hate the French, therefore I’m British and because I’m British I hate the French!” Their self esteem is based on hatred and without it they are lost. A friend, on the day before the referendum, walked around his factory shop floor and asked people how they would vote: to a man they said leave. Even when he pointed out to them that half the factory’s produce went to the EU, and if… Read more »

Simon Hodges
Simon Hodges
Apr 4, 2019 5:11 PM
Reply to  Wazdo

Why has no-one mentioned hatred? Because its not about hatred its about democracy (what’s left of it) and sovereignty. Your factory friend seems remarkably ill-informed. Isn’t it rather expensive to shift your whole operation to Holland just to save a small amount on tariffs exporting to the EU? Sterling is 11% lower than it was in 2016 so 4-5% tariffs still make our exports cheaper 5-6% cheaper. When you look at the historical data there is no strong correlation between relative exchange rates and imports/exports and they are not nearly so sensitive to price movements as one would imagine. Then there is our £9.4 billion net contribution to the EU. That alone is the equivalent of 3.5% of our total exports to the EU. One should also consider that 50% of our exports to the EU are services and there is no single market for services anyway. 30% of the… Read more »

Wazdo
Wazdo
Apr 4, 2019 10:09 PM
Reply to  Simon Hodges

Sorry, I didn’t make myself clear. I wasn’t talking about international trade ect. but about democracy and what motivated the working class to vote as they did. Here, in the West Midlands 75% voted to leave. Why? In my opinion because they have been encouraged to hate immigrants by the tabloid press.

When they said, “Don’t care. Fuck ’em” to my friend I don’t think they were wieghing up the pros and cons of import and export tarrifs or WTO trade relations, do you? I think they were hating foreigners. Whether Brexit turns out for the nation’s good or ill it was acheived through hatred.

Simon Hodges
Simon Hodges
Apr 4, 2019 10:14 PM
Reply to  Wazdo

I think your factory friend presented his workers with a very strange question which they didn’t feel able to answer in a reasonable way because it was a politically heavily loaded question. It is understandable that they took a very working class answer in the circumstances, not least because his arguments and claims were completely unjustified.

Wazdo
Wazdo
Apr 4, 2019 11:25 PM
Reply to  Simon Hodges

I put it to you Simon, having worked on the shop floor in the West Midlands factories for 25 years, that the workers I have met, and been friends, with would not have given two sorts of shit about trade and tarrifs and I doubt whethter they would have known anythig at all about his claims or their international ramifications, justfied or not.

It just feels good to hate, it makes you complete, it is always the fault of the other and so on.

Wazdo
Wazdo
Apr 4, 2019 11:33 PM
Reply to  Wazdo

Sorry about the typos.

binra
binra
Apr 5, 2019 10:34 AM
Reply to  Wazdo

Wazdo – I get it – you are using others to represent your own thoughts. Hating feels bad. Getting rid of bad feelings feels better. Don’t let truth get in the way of a good story. Have you noticed that this is not only a lather rinse and repeat conditioning response, but that the good feeling is only momentary relative to dumping or discharging it on someone else – and that it doesn’t really leave you, but is cast ‘out of mind’ or made unmindful in the magical belief that the scapegoat carries the sins that are then killed or sacrificed as the due punishment – outside and away from you. In this are you set in power over evils attacked in another. The need for scapegoats grows to become an insufferable unworthy world – excepting for taking joy in judging it so. The more addicted to fantasies of power,… Read more »

Simon Hodges
Simon Hodges
Apr 4, 2019 10:18 PM
Reply to  Wazdo

Another point is that whilst you see hate as ‘deeply satisfying’, most of us do not see things that way. You need help my friend.

Wazdo
Wazdo
Apr 4, 2019 11:31 PM
Reply to  Simon Hodges

Do you not agree that hatred is deeply satisfying for Tommy Robinson? It’s how he makes a very good living.

Personally, I find cameradery and cooperation to be deeply satisfying but then, as I said, I am a socialist and not one of Mr Thatchers children nor one of her childrens children as so many of the young are today .

Mucho
Mucho
Apr 5, 2019 1:02 AM
Reply to  Wazdo

Just in case you do not know, and for those who don’t, Tommy Robinson is 100% a Zionist asset. Brexit was announced by Zionist PM David Cameron. It’s all divide and rule, courtesy of the masters.
Tommy Robinson Zionist asset proof – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZn721uOWLM&t=457s

mark
mark
Apr 5, 2019 7:27 PM
Reply to  Mucho

He gets £10,000 a month in Zionist money.
Probably one of Shai Masot’s many duties when he’s not running smear campaigns with the Board of Deputies.

lundiel
lundiel
Apr 5, 2019 9:14 AM
Reply to  Wazdo

Sorry, you can’t be “a Socialist” while supporting the neoliberal EU. I strongly advise you to read this;
https://braveneweurope.com/thomas-fazi-and-william-mitchell-the-eu-cannot-be-democratised-heres-why
It explains how the labour market was denied full employment, the depoliticisation of European citizens, fixing economic theory by making central banks independent of government, leading to the acceptance of globalism and the “new reality”.
“To conclude, any belief that the EU can be ‘democratised’ and reformed in a progressive direction is a pious illusion. Not only would this require an impossible alignment of left movements/governments to emerge simultaneously at the international level. On a more fundamental level, a system that was created with the specific aim of constraining democracy cannot be democratised. It can only be rejected.”

Simon Hodges
Simon Hodges
Apr 5, 2019 9:35 AM
Reply to  lundiel

Lundiel

Another excellent article by Bill Mitchell and Thomas Fazi assessing the fallacies of the supposed inevitablity of supranationalism. The general ignorance of the Left on these matters is genuinely shocking.

https://www.plutobooks.com/blog/national-sovereignty-supranationalism-brexit/

Wazdo
Wazdo
Apr 5, 2019 11:44 AM
Reply to  lundiel

Sorry, but I can be any kind of socialist that I like. I admire Jeremy and John’s vision of a new UK starting with a publicly owned bank, The Bank of the North. A bank whose purpose is to help and finance worker cooperatives which are run for the benefit of their workers and customers and are democratically controlled. This, in my view, is an attempt to create a new kind of life separate from the capitalist vision, along the lines of the American organisation Democracy at Work. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of successful cooperatives throughout the country and John and Jeremy are hoping to give as many as will the opportunity to work in one. This would mean the separation of our economy into two sections, those who have good permanent jobs that can be the basis of a satisfying life and those who work for capitalism.… Read more »

lundiel
lundiel
Apr 5, 2019 12:21 PM
Reply to  Wazdo

Good luck with that inside the EU.

binra
binra
Apr 4, 2019 9:14 PM
Reply to  Wazdo

I think hatred can be felt as a result of feeling denied a voice by ‘indifferent and smug elites’ – but actually no articulation of intellect is needed to know that quality of life is being shut down and denied under bullshitspeak of security and delivery of care etc – its a system of lies and there is no one to speak FOR people – excepting seemingly those who as you indicate – use fear agenda to generate a proxy grassroots politic of manipulated activism. Just say No. I read that you see this as hate of immigrants – but is it just being for or against migrants to Britain? – when the focus of the whole MSM on migrant hordes, migrant sympathy, and then migrant rapist and migrant terrorists – all runs as part of a psyop – that did and does confuse, split and scare people, and does… Read more »

Clubofinfo
Clubofinfo
Apr 5, 2019 7:48 AM
Reply to  Wazdo

And then there is your hatred of working people, told with your parable. If only you could elect a better people, more enlightened and signed up to your own ideology and hatreds instead.

Wazdo
Wazdo
Apr 5, 2019 12:59 PM
Reply to  Clubofinfo

I don’t hate working people. As I said I worked amongst them for 25 years but also I don’t have any illusions about the “fine and noble sons and daughters of toil,” which is an intellectual abstraction.

On the factory floor there is as much back biting and bitching as there is in any office.

I’m sorry, there is no unity in the working class Mrs Thatcher, Tony Blair, their children and the right wing press have seen to that.

Mr Le Docteur RALPH
Mr Le Docteur RALPH
Apr 4, 2019 2:32 PM

“I didn’t particularly like it when the Tories were elected in 1979, 1983,1987, 1992 and 2015 but I never and ceteris paribus, never would have questioned the legitimacy of their electoral triumph.” I have always questioned the legitimacy of Margaret Thatcher and her decimation of the British economy and transformation of the prior whigocracy (no matter who you voted for you got Sir Humphrey) into a Tory paradise (no matter who you vote for you get a crony capitalism privatization). She and her party never received a majority of the votes and if Britain had had a two-round voting system as in France instead first past the post she and her party would never have been in power. Imagine that: Jim Callaghan and David Steel in power in the 80s and Thatcher a footnote as to how right-wing extremism cannot prosper in Britain. Maastricht and the single market were Tory… Read more »

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 5:29 PM

Bricklaying. A skilled teade allowing the working class to earn a modest (decent by our standards) wage.

Remind us what happened to the training and opportunities to take up this useful career. Who was it that sold this opportunity down the river?

Italanon
Italanon
Apr 4, 2019 1:59 PM

Imagine for a moment that the Conservatives never organised a referendum. Would these excellent pages of off-guardian be filled with so many fringe slagging off EU related bollocks? No, of course not. The articles would instead be aimed at the real enemy within our shores. I hate David Cameron for what he did – divided our people 50:50 on a distraction.

mark
mark
Apr 4, 2019 4:31 PM
Reply to  Italanon

The EU is not a peripheral issue. It controls everything of importance and makes national politics irrelevant. Ask the Greeks when they elected a government Brussels disliked and it was just replaced by some IMF/ EU satraps. Or the Spanish government that made some Cabinet appointments Brussels disliked – and they were promptly vetoed. Or the Italian budget that was just binned by the Commission and the entire government replaced by a few Brussels hitmen. Or the interference in Poland and Hungary. If old Jezza was elected, they could just demand that he be replaced as well, Guaido style, and any programme he tried to implement be discarded.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Apr 4, 2019 12:19 PM

Another little interesting snippet.

‘The 87-year-old billionaire backs Best for Britain, an anti-Brexit group that’s calling for a second referendum. He has reportedly donated more than £700,000 to the campaign.’

‘The Hungarian-American has long been vocal about the vote to leave the EU, and previously said he refuses to “butt out” of the debate because the decision to leave was a “tragic mistake.”‘

First published in the mainstream American political journal ‘Politico’ 05.29.2018. This is a publication with a worldwide readership.

So here we have a foreign national – Mr Colour Revolution himself – interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation state with a view to bring about the change of policy that ”he” decides is desirable.

No comment needed really!

mark
mark
Apr 4, 2019 4:36 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Ah, but the Chosen People have a God given right to muscle in and lord it over the goyim.

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 5:31 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

It’s rather annoying to know the money he using is what he robbed from us the year I left school.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Apr 5, 2019 12:00 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Ah, yes! But he’s a cool, progressive, ‘leftwing’ billionaire, so it’s OK, isn’t it.

lundiel
lundiel
Apr 5, 2019 12:30 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

The thinking that bred such monstrous lies needs eradicating.

mark
mark
Apr 5, 2019 7:31 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

And he’s one of the Chosen People so any criticism of what he gets up to is “anti semitic.” Like criticising the banksters or Wall Street or the IMF.

bob
bob
Apr 4, 2019 12:10 PM

read this: Lord James of Blackheath, the man who spotted the first lead that revealed British and Israeli involvement in the Iraqi Supergun affair and who in 2010 became just about the only peer of the realm to raise the issue of the national debt in proper terms in the House of Lords, has released this paper, which calls upon the Lords to prevent the Crown shattering the Constitution by acting in breach of the Monarch’s oath of office to uphold the Declaration of Rights 1689. A constitutional initiative to override political deadlock Public anxiety and dismay as to Brexit political arguments reflects the similar mood and confusion in the House of Commons, which makes it extremely difficult for the public, poorly served by the media, to understand the critical issues — which in turn will make it more difficult to gain wide acceptance to find any kind of solution.… Read more »

Kavy
Kavy
Apr 4, 2019 11:08 AM

More depressing stuff about the evil thugs who rule this world, and it’s all about money. Steve Keen, Michael Hudson, and many other fine people said it was best for the UK to leave the E.U., but according to this article, that’s not such a good idea. The British ruling elite are split into two groups: the old industrialists who want easy access into Europe, and the military-industrial-financial-complex which wants closer ties with the U.S. and its war machine. Boris Johnson says, “f*ck industry”. Yep, the money is in endless wars, mercenaries, money laundering, and dodgy finance. We’re taking about pure evil again! There’s the people who funnelled dark money into the Leave campaigns – the cash openDemocracy revealed, which went through former Scottish Tory golden boy Richard Cook to the DUP, and the cash which came through Arron Banks, via Gibraltar, and which we’ve spent much of the last… Read more »

mark
mark
Apr 4, 2019 4:41 PM
Reply to  Kavy

If you’re worried about “dark money” and the Referendum. you’d do better to focus your attention on Mr. George Colour Revolution, the man who brags he’s got over 200 MEPs in his pocket. Partly thanks to his billions, Remain outspent Leave by over 2:1.

Peter
Peter
Apr 4, 2019 10:45 AM

You are having Brexit because the kingdom your are a subject in is approaching a change in Monar. Your monarch rules it’s so called former colonies eg Australia, Canada by use of legal/fictional contrivance known as ‘The Order of St John’ which is recognised by the UN As a legal entity having the functions and capacities of a state lacking only residence to give it form. The Order of St John was set up in the late 1900’s as a way to transfer and store sovereignty of the British Commonwealth monarch. The Order has an ambulance service for its cover. It supposedly hands out honorary knighthoods. However despite their so called honorary status no Grand Prior or even Prior is known to have existed other than those who were selected from St John Ambulance ranks. A Grand Prior is to be found in all the former colonies. Likewise will be… Read more »

Grafter
Grafter
Apr 4, 2019 9:00 AM

To the Rule Britannia Leavers above. Do tell me or perhaps list all the faults and harm the evil EU has visited upon you, your family and friends ? Have they destroyed your manufacturing industries and reduced your economy to a basket case dependent on the financial machinations of the moneyed elite ? Tell me exactly what legislation the EU has imposed on your “Great” Britain which has left you in such a frothing outrage at all those nasty bureaucrats who constrain your lifestyle and chain you to never ending European servitude. Once you stop and get rid of all those Johnny Foreigner types from your green and pleasant land tell me how you intend to put the “Great” back into your suffering little EU abused Britain.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Apr 4, 2019 10:34 AM
Reply to  Grafter

”Have they destroyed your manufacturing industries and reduced your economy to a basket case dependent on the financial machinations of the moneyed elite ?” I’m glad you raised the question of Euro basket cases. For a start I would direct you to Italy a no-growth, indebted basket case with a debt -to-gdp ratio of 130% and a largely insolvent banking system. There some other interesting indicators you might like to peruse. I suppose Brexit is to blame for the fact that Britain is now growing faster than the major European economies. The latest ‘monthly’ GDP figures show that the British economy grew by 0.3 per cent in the three months to November 2018 and will probably sustain that rate of growth for the entire final quarter of 2018. This is in contradistinction to major European economies such as Germany (which will probably record a technical recession – two consecutive quarters… Read more »

Michael Antony
Michael Antony
Apr 6, 2019 12:09 AM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Francis, you put your finger on the big EU problem: the disruptive effect of free movement of people when economic levels of countries are so different. The UK (Blair) made this worse by opening its doors to migrants from the new member states without the period of transition such as the Germans imposed. So a Latvian doctor, nurse or engineer suddenly discovered he/she could earn ten times more by moving to the UK. Who can blame them? The trouble is when the highly qualified people leave, the services and quality of life go down so the people less qualified want to leave as well. You can’t get an eye operation; there are no doctors. So you leave. The country starts to empty out. It sounds “illiberal”, even cruel, but people have to be kept in their own countries if they are to develop. Paradoxically, Russia and China are doing better… Read more »

Simon Hodges
Simon Hodges
Apr 4, 2019 12:14 PM
Reply to  Grafter

Well there’s inflated food prices by 17% to begin with which obviously harms myself, my family and friends. “The EU’s tariffs are terrible for the UK because the EEC’s customs union was designed and built before we joined the EEC in 1973. The tariffs were set in order to protect Continental producer interests, notably French farmers, German car makers, and Italian clothing and footwear manufacturers. Those were – and still are – the areas where the EU’s external tariffs are very high. The high food tariffs were and continue to be very damaging to us as a net food importing nation. Our consumers pay 100% of the elevated prices for food inside the EU’s tariff walls, but only part of the benefit goes to British farmers. The rest of the benefit of the higher prices goes to farmers in other EU countries. The White Paper advocating EEC entry in 1971… Read more »

JudyJ
JudyJ
Apr 4, 2019 1:54 PM
Reply to  Grafter

@Grafter I can see why you, and no doubt many ‘remainers’, would take this stance. Human instinct is to focus on one’s own personal situation in order to form an opinion. I know people whose sole reason for voting to remain in the EU was because they feared that, if we left, this might result in additional bureaucracy in organising their annual holidays to the continent. I refuse to concede that these people were morally superior to me simply because they chose to vote the way they did. Conversely, and this is the point you are overlooking, many people who voted to leave did so based on their assessment of past and present observations and what the EU will progressively look like in five years, ten years, twenty years time. For some it was the state of the economy and what the future looked likely to hold that convinced them… Read more »

HH
HH
Apr 4, 2019 2:06 PM
Reply to  Grafter

The EU is far more destructive to third-world countries, which it dominates and undermines with its imperialist trade policies. Take a look into the horrific effects of EU policies on Africa:

https://mg.co.za/article/2017-11-10-00-eu-chicken-dumping-starves-africa

mark
mark
Apr 4, 2019 4:49 PM
Reply to  Grafter

Just look at Greece/ Spain/ Ireland/ Portugal for examples of their handiwork.
Closer to home, Ireland was ordered to privatise water, though there was zero support for it in the country. All Greek assets have been sold off at fire sale prices to its favoured carpet baggers. Democracy has simply been abolished in all these countries.
It has destroyed democracy in this country. Britain is ruled by unaccountable anonymous nonentities in Brussels. All important decisions are taken there.
If you’re happy with the results, wave your little blue flag about. But most people aren’t.

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 5:38 PM
Reply to  Grafter

What’s the EU done to stop all of what you mentioned?

What’s the EU done to protect is powerless, struggling citizens?

Ross Hendry
Ross Hendry
Apr 4, 2019 8:43 AM

It became startlingly clear from the start that we are up against a ruthless force in trying to leave the EU.

When Jo Cox was murdered (if indeed that was her fate) in a glaringly obvious false flag event, days before the referendum, anyone with any sense could see that it was amateur, albeit macabre, theatre. It then became even clearer that something was up and Brexit wasn’t going to be permitted when the establishment didn’t fully investigate the crime and conducted a farcical “trial” of the supposed culprit, i.e. the “nationalist” patsy.

Events since have fully confirmed this scenario. We now know that the U.K. will not be allowed to recapture full sovereignty under any circumstances whatsoever. And ultimately it is us who will have let such a dire eventuality happen.

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 5:44 PM
Reply to  Ross Hendry

The similarities between Jo Cox and Anna Lindt are striking

Ross Hendry
Ross Hendry
Apr 4, 2019 6:58 PM

Indeed. Apart from them both being pro-EU (and so suitable as martyrs in the Remain/Pro Euro causes) they both heavily criticised Israel and their treatment of Palestinians. Did this make them prime targets for the killers?

The Mossad motto “by way of deception thou shalt do war” comes rushing to mind.

This is a very good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xyo0rzLyiw

rogerglewis
rogerglewis
Apr 4, 2019 5:56 AM

Absolutely brilliant. Gold Medal and all the gongs for Frank Lee, Frankly sublime.

Wilmers31
Wilmers31
Apr 4, 2019 5:09 AM

“It is not the shackles of nationalism that give rise to the bureaucratic monstrosity which is the EU but precisely the opposite.”

Their plans were to have the whole area as one unit unter US dominance, TTIP/NATO/EU plus the Pacific area under TPP. American rapacious legislation would have been everywhere. Ukraine was to be in, but without Sevastopol there was no point. Turkey is in NATO already and was to get into the EU. All these lovely plans did not succeed although some bits still are, e.g. the joint facility of Pine Gap (Australia) loses its ‘joint’. We have to be careful they don’t go much further and we reduce military expenditure rather than expand it.

Now it’s like a big plate of useless leftovers in Europe and in Australia we have to choose if we want to eat or throw bombs.

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist
ragheadthefiendlyterrorist
Apr 4, 2019 5:03 AM

If you have to negotiate Brexit then it’s not a Brexit. You’re still tied to the EU. Anything short of a no deal Brexit is no Brexit.

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc
Apr 4, 2019 1:01 AM

Frank Lee, What you have written here is brilliant. I may be naive, but I think the real situation amongst our MP’s is even worse than you portray. I think many have been literally brainwashed. It has been a standard technique, for many years, using psychological residential training courses with titles such as Team Building,Leadership techniques, Behaviour Analysis, Presentation Techniques and Behaviour Modification, largely developed by The Tavistock Institute. Don’t knock it – I have attended most of them, and they are incredibly powerful. I simply wouldn’t go on the final one, because I saw what it did to a colleague. Over 5 days, it is a brain deconstruction and rebuild job, such that you are a changed person. You are Now, The Company Man – or The Political Party Man – or The Religious Man. It’s much the same as joining a Cult, and I thought I was extremely… Read more »

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 3, 2019 9:52 PM

https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/8317

This survey gave it as 59% unable.
There are others which come up by searching
What percent of the British population are unable to name the Prime Minister. How did you search it?
I posted this link btl in the Fraudian and was treated to a critique of the survey instead of data on a survey finding otherwise. Please don’t do that, unless you have contrarary data, Zig., but do reply as you sound incredulous.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 3, 2019 9:55 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

This is misplaced as it is a reply to zigzagwanderer below. Seems to happen sporadically. I thought it was my dying iPad but this was with a new one.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 3, 2019 10:52 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

The new ones are built dying.

mark
mark
Apr 3, 2019 6:31 PM

Just imagine if Trump (whatever you think of him) had been negotiating this deal. We would have been out by now with whatever we wanted, with the EU paying US £40 billion. Instead, we had this bunch of no hopers constantly kowtowing to Brussels, instantly complying with whatever ludicrous demands were made, coming out of every negotiation stripped down to their underpants. All we are seeing now is a game of smoke and mirrors to cover up the hard fact that Brexit has been sabotaged and the Referendum result has been stolen. There will be continuing protracted furious mock battles about minor issues of no real importance, accompanied by mass produced hysteria in the MSM. But all that matters is BREXIT IS NOT HAPPENING. We will be staying in the Customs Union and the Single Market. We will continue to be subject to EU political control and regulation, and the… Read more »

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 3, 2019 7:44 PM
Reply to  mark

You have not addressed the “compared to what” question, Mark. Sure the EU is silly but the players you decry will still be the same within the UK, or it will just be their offspring. In addition to being comedy sui generis, Brexit is also all in the timing, or should have been.

mark
mark
Apr 3, 2019 8:03 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

This could all have been settled in one five minute phone call if there had been a genuine desire to implement the referendum result and leave the EU. It would have gone something like this: “We’re leaving now. We’re going to carry on trading with the Continent, as we have for the past five thousand years. We’re going to carry on importing your goods free of tariffs and quotas. That will continue until you impose tariffs and quotas on our exports, at which time we will match you euro for euro. We will respect the rights of EU nationals living in the UK. That will continue so long as you respect the rights of UK nationals living on the Continent. No, we’re not giving you any more money, you can go and f*** yourself. Bye.” No need to waste any breath on the non issue of the Irish border. We’ve… Read more »

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 3, 2019 10:32 PM
Reply to  mark

I think it was wise not to implement it right away, indeed the knowledge that few politicians, much less the general public understood the implications, it would have made it irresponsible. Even more irresponsible was putting it prematurely before the public by Cameron et al. who themselves were fuzzy on it. This says several things, including the conclusion this was not about what was best for the UK in the long term, simply because it had not been explored well enough. If you doubt this, talk to anyone in Science. Ancient unis have appointed positions like vice-presidential equivalents for Brexit. Talk to any of them. The government was breathtakingly out to lunch on every key issue. I am not for or against. I am for a more informed choice and a second referendum. You want to ignore the wishes of the younger generation whose vote probably should be given a… Read more »

mark
mark
Apr 4, 2019 3:12 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

Yes, democracy is SOOOOO inconvenient. It is not being implemented right away, it is not being implemented AT ALL. Cameron did what he had to. I’m no fan of his. He did what he did because 4 million voted UKIP and they won the EU elections. He was losing control of his party and the whole country and was trying to do something to resolve the issue once and for all. He got away with it with Scotland and was going double or quits. Sometimes gambles come off. He didn’t know what else to do. The peasants were revolting. Maybe we should just appoint some worthy Oxbridge don to take all our decisions for us. He could tell us all what to do in between pre prandial sherries. Maybe only those who are appropriately “informed” should be allowed to vote. Maybe you should have to take an exam. Maybe a… Read more »

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 7:32 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

You know little, clearly.

Have you any idea how annoying it is to be told “Your vote counts for nothing”?

So, tell me why my vote counts for nothing. Racist? Stupid? Xenophobic?

Should I have my right to vote removed completely? Because I’m not educated enough?

Oh, one last thing. Stop lying! If you didn’t care about in or out, you wouldn’t want another referendum!

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 4, 2019 10:44 AM

“Oh, one last thing. Stop lying! If you didn’t care about in or out, you wouldn’t want another referendum!” Aren’t you the little charmer. I am not lying and it’s your problem, not mine. I have tried to give you a perspective from outside by someone more familiar with how outsiders perceive all this than you. In return I have been accused of being a paid lackey and of being a liar. Despite all the indignation on this thread and despite my repeated asking, I have not had a reply to my question about a second referendum. I provided a link in response to the sneering comments about my quoting data showing half the English population cannot name the PM. No reply to that either. No contrary data either. As for the bleating about your vote counting for nothing, I am sympathetic but not very. Voting and democracy are supposed… Read more »

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 12:07 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Sadly, my fat thumb mistakenly liked your comment. Charmer?!?! It’s clear that you are lying, because your agenda is obvious yet you claim you favour neither result. I’m tired of entitled twits like yourself who have a few letters after their name and think their opinions are ‘better’ Obama tried scaring us. We’re a yank satellite. Besides, Obama is a scumbag. What did he do for his fellow blacks compared to Wall Street? Drones? Guantanamo? If you have any streak of decency about you, you’ll let the choice be applied, and then fight for your choice afterwards. Democracy. I’m not the one who is scared. That’s you. You’re the one who fears the future, because you stand to lose. And do you honestly think you could cope with “I fucking told you the first time!”? I doubt it. What’s left of the NHS (name only) would buckle under the caseload… Read more »

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 4, 2019 1:51 PM

Ouch! You have me wrong, Random, but your leaps to conclusions are not effective or attractive. I keep saying I have no stake in this. Why won’t you accept that? Is it because your rehearsed diatribe is all you got?
I was there for the 20 years preceding the vote and during it. I do have some familiarity.

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 5:47 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

If you have no stake in this, butt out.

Find something else. You’re not helping anyone by interfering.

You should be lurking, not posting

AnneR
AnneR
Apr 4, 2019 4:08 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Once again the presumption is that the bewildered herd, the hoi polloi, the great unwashed did not know where their own interests lay. All those southerners on the Beeb World Service that I have heard all smugly talk about the Leavers’ ignorance, even as they remain firmly south of Watford. They need to go further north to the former industrial areas, even to such rural areas as the North Riding where many of the few decent paying jobs have gone to Eastern Europeans rather than the local lads and lasses. In part because Blair immediately signed on to “freedom of movement (of labor),” while Germany, France and other western European countries used their right to a moratorium on that (I believe it was to last about five years). Moreover, the UK is the third largest financial contributor – one of the main reasons the Germans and French and Eastern Europeans… Read more »

mark
mark
Apr 4, 2019 5:02 PM
Reply to  AnneR

They will just spin this out as long as they can.
Every DAY we stay in they are bleeding us of another £50 million – to add to the £500 billion we’ve paid into this protectionist racket already.
£500,000,000,000.

Ken Kenn
Ken Kenn
Apr 3, 2019 10:19 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

We’ll all be wanting to put the snow back in sky eventually. There are three powerful trading blocks: BRICS – NAFTA and THE EU. No matter how leftie any of us are that is a fact and globalisation and the fact that the western proletairiat was exported a long time ago. I can only take a view from the UK as that is what I know – not from Wikpedia or other sources of information.Like many I’ve lived through it and am still living through it. Neo liberal economics has had full reign for nearly forty years in the UK ( longer in the US) and the politicians that paid lip service to that economic model are certainly still among us. It is till legion in the Labour Party. Corbyn’s concern is not specific to whether we leave or remain the EU, his concern is for the economic effects of… Read more »

wardropper
wardropper
Apr 4, 2019 7:12 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

The silly players you mention may well be the same within the UK, but at least they will be close enough for us to keep an eye on them. Most people, if they are honest with themselves, find it extremely difficult to feel connected to the meetings which go on in Brussels.

Grafter
Grafter
Apr 4, 2019 1:15 AM
Reply to  mark

Instead of “EU super state” substitute “Corrupt,incompetent, elitist, London based political establishment”.

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 7:25 AM
Reply to  mark

You’re far from alone. Labour have shat on millions and there will be a price to pay.

Don’t care if I have to live under a Tory government anymore (will not vote for them) because I know where I stand with Tories.

Take Cooper for example. She is currently trying desperately to stop a no deal exit. Yet just a few months ago…

https://www.yvettecooper.com/normanton_immigration_event

mark
mark
Apr 4, 2019 5:06 PM

I’m hoping both parties are made to pay a very heavy price for this.
But I will never vote Labour again. Not until we get a genuine socialist party.
Not one made up of 85% Red Tory Blairite Backstabbers.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 3, 2019 6:20 PM

Lots of well-written sophistry, Frank. How about answering the question neutral outsiders are asking? If this is so great and people are really persuaded, why not have a second referendum? No need for you to award medals. You seem to have as much fury about threats to getting your way, as you ascribe to the Remainers not getting theirs. It is bleeding obvious that voters in the first ref. had little clue what it all meant, except for some vague idea it would teach those “Frogs and Krauts” a lesson and reduce the number of Polish food stores on the High streets of Middle England. Polls, prior to all this, showed only half your population could name the Prime Minister for Chrissake. Yet the rhetoric was about the kind of irrelevancies (to the punters that is) this article illustrates. In fact, Frank your article smacks of desperation, which is precisely… Read more »

Butties
Butties
Apr 3, 2019 6:28 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

best of 13 surely

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 3, 2019 7:09 PM
Reply to  Butties

So answer the question instead of trying to reductio ad absurdum what is already absurd. You are terrified of a second referendum. Be honest.

TFS
TFS
Apr 4, 2019 8:02 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

A seond referendum vote?

But I hate to spell it out, YOU ARE THE LOSER. You gave you best, and it wasn’t enough. You didn’t get the prom queen

Yeah, I said it. L for LOSER. You LOST. Democracy doesn’t work by having continued voting until lifes self appointed King ding-aling gets the answer they expected.

That your brain thinks it can justify a second referendum, surely speaks volumes of arrogance and superiority, sweet cakes. Stop crying, whinging and acting like a spoilt brat and jog on.

Now. Had I so been inclind to vote Remain, I would still hold this view of Remoaners and would NOW be siding the the Brexiteers.

You digust me a much as the people in Government.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 4, 2019 12:00 PM
Reply to  TFS

I didn’t lose, not having had a horse in this race. But what an ugly face you present. Almost enough to make me take sides. Love the “digust” though.

wardropper
wardropper
Apr 4, 2019 7:22 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Being terrified of a second referendum doesn’t enter into it.
The point is that a second referendum sets a precedent for a third, and then a fourth one.
Butties HAS answered the question, and most eloquently too, but one has to take out the earplugs to hear the answer.
Being terrified of Brexit is what the mainstream media are actually pushing for all they’re worth.

Mister Bump
Mister Bump
Apr 15, 2019 8:09 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

what if the second referendum is close again, as is likely. Theres everything to fear if that’s the case. The right would clean up any debate about democracy and legitimacy. All MPs know this. Personally I don’t think govnt democracy will last anyway since they have almost no power – they are beholden to corporations and the right, centre and left all know this. We all want change. The question is who will win the arguments for what replaces it. A second referendum would favour the far right, no matter the outcome. For that reason I dont want one. As it stands we can maintain a strong national leftist argument against EU neo-liberalism and unite the left and right post Brexit , bring the real arguments about the failure of capitalism to the forefront. If we have a second referendum it will be endless debates about democracy and very little… Read more »

mark
mark
Apr 3, 2019 6:40 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

United lost 2-1 to Wolves last night. But what does that result mean? There were some dubious refereeing decisions; Shouldn’t we just re stage the match with another referee? Maybe some of the players were off form at the time. Maybe the managers made a few wrong decisions. Maybe the crowd didn’t cheer loudly enough. That result is unsafe and we need to re run the match to see if we get a different decision.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 3, 2019 7:07 PM
Reply to  mark

The big difference is that in the big scheme of things, the Wolves result is meaningless. Yet everyone knew what 2-1 meant. Not so with the Brexit vote.

mark
mark
Apr 3, 2019 8:24 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Not to United supporters it isn’t. I don’t know what the last election result meant. Maybe the voters really intended to give May a huge majority. Maybe she should just ban all the other parties and give herself a 600 seat majority, like they did in Ukraine. Maybe they really wanted the BNP or the EDL to win. Maybe Tommy Robinson should declare himself prime minister. There are so many different ways to “interpret” the result. If things had been different, the result could have been different. Like if your uncle had been a bit different, he could have been your auntie. I’m sure that from now on, any MP who receives 52% of the votes cast will say, “Oh no, that’s not good enough, that’s far too close, I can’t possibly accept I’ve been elected by such a narrow margin. We must have another election.” “Election results mean whatever… Read more »

Refraktor
Refraktor
Apr 4, 2019 1:22 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

In which case why are they proposing only a BRINO versus remain referendum? A no deal exit is the most favoured option in the country after all and I suspect it would win again.

Anticitizen one
Anticitizen one
Apr 6, 2019 1:47 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

George I respect your point of view, this rhetoric of we didn’t know what we voted for is well past its project fear sell by date. I voted leave, despite media labelling of far right, Russian influenced, racist, and being unaware. I voted for the safety net of the great charter, petition of rights and the Bill of rights. I have polish neighbours, had a black man as my best man at my wedding and I work as a lecturer. That does away with me being thick, racist, anti immigration etc. I don’t care who lives by me as long as they don’t Rob me or try to kill me. Many people do not like the EU for the monstrous behemoth it has become and it directly threatens the UK with its hostile takeover of sovereignty. David Cameron and countless others told us we would be leaving single market, customs… Read more »

Simon Hodges
Simon Hodges
Apr 6, 2019 1:53 PM

Anticitizen one

Well said Sir.

different frank
different frank
Apr 4, 2019 7:43 AM
Reply to  mark

Was that score binding?
The referendum was not.

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 12:16 PM

The referendum was binding. From Cameron’s promise at Chatham House, through to MPs voting to honour the results

different frank
different frank
Apr 4, 2019 1:11 PM

No it was non binding. Advisory only. MPs are not bound by it in any way.

different frank
different frank
Apr 5, 2019 9:52 AM

How was it binding?
All referendums are non binding.
Does not matter what Cameron said.

mark
mark
Apr 5, 2019 2:19 PM

All political parties, even including the Liberals, or whatever they call themselves nowadays, gave public commitments to respect and implement the Referendum result. As Clegg said, “Either you believe in democracy or you don’t.”

Otherwise they could have just commissioned an opinion poll and saved a lot of trouble and money.

Then they lost and changed their minds.

Maybe from now on General Elections are “non binding” as well.

Maybe we should just cut the cards for who’s going to be next prime minister, Aces High and Jokers Wild. Save a lot of trouble.

different frank
different frank
Apr 6, 2019 2:09 AM

The downvotes mean fuck all
It was NON BINNDING.
You morons never get that.

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 6, 2019 6:12 PM

If the downvotes mean fuck all, why are you posting about it?

You’ve already said that once…

You call us morons?!?!

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 3, 2019 7:29 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

The downvotes have reminded me I forgot to mention the invention of biological warfare/genocide by Jeffrey Amherst the most popular man in England of his time who advocated giving smallpox infested blankets to the First Nations in Canada and “Lord” Kitchener, more than a century later, also the most popular man of his time, who invented the concentration camp in the Boer War leading to the deaths of ~30,000 women and children.

ZigZagWanderer
ZigZagWanderer
Apr 3, 2019 8:01 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Horace Walpole called him “that log of wood whose stupidity and incapacity are past belief”.

Having trouble finding evidence that Amherst was the “most popular man in England of his time”.

Post a link for me George.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 3, 2019 9:39 PM
Reply to  ZigZagWanderer

http://www.militaryheritage.com/amherst.htm

This gives detail on his military career and his honours. It documents the repeated offering to him of increasingly important jobs, many which he refused later in life. I read the “ most popular” bit in an English periodical of the time when I was researching aspects of Canadian history, but sorry, can’t recall which one, nor did I reference it. It was just after his celebrated victory in acquiring New France, which played very well to the British public. Hard to surpass beating the French, and taking not only their land but that of the Jesuits, so it should be no surprise.

mark
mark
Apr 3, 2019 8:37 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

They exterminated their fair share of the 100 million plus Native Americans in the True Holocaust in the New World. So did our Spanish/ Portuguese/ French EU buddies. Our Italian EU buddies didn’t really pull their weight there, but they showed willing with their little genocide in Libya. Like our EU Belgian buddies with their 10 million Congo genocide. And our EU German buddies with their little genocides in Namibia and Tanzania. Genocide is as European as cheese quotas and wine lakes.

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 12:19 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Both sound like odious turds. Times were different, as you know.

Today, people are more informed, with the world at their fingertips.

You could arguably describe Ed Sheeran or Jeremy Clarkson as the most popular in England today.

What are their crimes?

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 4, 2019 4:23 PM

I am a fan of both, the latter a guilty pleasure. The crime is mine, then?

ZigZagWanderer
ZigZagWanderer
Apr 3, 2019 7:40 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

“Polls, prior to all this, showed only half your population could name the Prime Minister for Chrissake.”

Post a link to all these polls for us George ….. I’ve just spent some time googling for evidence of such polls and have drawn a complete blank.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 4, 2019 12:22 PM
Reply to  ZigZagWanderer

See above, where I provide the link. I’ll reply for you since you have not. It took all of two seconds to find the link. Thanks George for taking the trouble to be interested in our problem and for providing the link, especially when I embarrassed myself by not being able to find it. It is indeed shocking that more than half the English population could not name their own PM. I am very surprised. I apologize again for being unable to locate such easily findable links and even one which was discussed at some length with context provided in one of our national newspapers – the Independent. I tend to conveniently forget uncomfortable facts, but hey, who doesn’t! When I said I spent “some time”, I can see how this could be interpreted as meaning considerable effort. Instead of acknowledging this fact and contribution I will now set about… Read more »

Northern
Northern
Apr 4, 2019 1:20 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Read this and digest it, then re-read your previous comments in this thread and see if you can find the irony:

Your 20 years of lived experience of this country is utterly irrelevant and all your statements merely indicate you do not have suitable intellect to be trusted with any kind of responsibility what so ever. Therefore any contribution you have to make to this debate can be totally dis-regarded.

Annoying when people blanket dis-regard your opinion on the basis of a technocratic appeal to authority, isn’t it George?

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 4, 2019 2:07 PM
Reply to  Northern

Oh come on! No one is disregarding anyone’s opinion. There was a vote. I was there and participated in the post mortem. It was a mistake to put the vote before an ill-informed public. But the promoters of the vote were also alarmingly underprepared, underinformed, and under illusions.

If you are so cocksure then why are you so panicky about a second ref?. I think it is because you can’t be open about why you want Brexit perhaps because it is so unacceptable in today’s world? They had several in Quebec trying to get the answer they wanted. They never did.

But have it your way. See if I care. And I would not ignore your opinion. But I have asked for it repeatedly. So cut the bullshit and hissy fitting. What is wrong with a second referendum, under the less than ideal circumstances of the first?

Northern
Northern
Apr 4, 2019 4:06 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

So you say you’re not disregarding anyone’s opinions, but have repeatedly made reference to the ‘ill-informed’ public being given the choice. The whole basis of your many posts on this thread is essentially that ‘we’ (ie leave voters specifically) didn’t understand what we were voting for, and therefore a second referendum is in fact, democratic. Quite clearly you didn’t follow the instruction in my last post and search for the irony. Even a modicum of self analysis would lead you to the conclusion that all your posts in this thread, and my post above you responded to, are in fact making the same calibre of argument – in short, I know best so shut up. When I make that argument, it’s ‘Oh come on!’ but you’ve been putting that forth for most of this thread? Frankly, it’s utter bollocks disguised as debate by draping it in your ‘authority’ as a… Read more »

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 4, 2019 5:03 PM
Reply to  Northern

Well Northern it will not have escaped your attention, nor mine, that most acid-tinged Brexiteer comments in this thread devolve to personal attack. So instead of addressing the issues you obsessively enumerate what I have communicated about myself and then attack that too. Its a kind of unsavoury mini-stalking but do recognize how it shouts out that your position is feeble. Well how about this? You seem to think this is somehow about me, or you would like it to be, because it provides a channel for your aggression surplus, your array of favourite stereotypes, and that this tack will substitute for missing content. I surely don’t know best and have never suggested that. Straw must be in short supply in the North. As for utter bollocks for argument I hesitate to disagree because you are obviously an expert on that. As for draping what I said in academic authority… Read more »

Northern
Northern
Apr 4, 2019 5:33 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Clearly, I’ve under-estimated just how irrational you are, cause I’m really struggling to see the connection between the points I made and questions I posed you, and what you replied with? There’s no point in attempting to have a debate if you’re just going to respond with non-sequitur. Please can you quote the sections of my post that are ‘aggressive’ or ‘personally attacked’ you? Calling your argument utter bollocks is not personal abuse when its substantiated by a few hundred words of evidence supporting why it’s non-sensical, so please don’t try play that card. Who knew asking you to support your assertions with evidence constituted ‘unsavoury mini stalking’? If my position is ‘feeble’ and I’m ‘missing content’, why have you not responded to the bulk of my point George? You really have no sense of irony what-so-ever do you? You genuinely can’t see how assuming that leave voters are racists… Read more »

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 4, 2019 7:16 PM
Reply to  Northern

The best way to maintain dialogue is to insult your correspondent. Right?Unfortunately I don’t agree with that. Since you are unable to draw the connection between your attacking EU policy in the Ukraine and GB attacking and invading poor helpless backward countries, I have lost all interest in this conversation. You remind me of the occasional ugliness I met while in the UK. Fortunately most people were different, which is why I took the trouble of debating on this topic. I was mistaken. I was sympathetic to your dilemma, but now not as much.

Butties
Butties
Apr 4, 2019 7:27 PM
Reply to  Northern

Yo Northern, Stop feeding the Troll.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 5, 2019 6:11 PM
Reply to  Butties

Hey Buttguy
Take your toothbrush and use it to clean around one of your public toilets. Then take the dummy out of your mouth, use the toothbrush on your remaining tooth, go back to watching 1966 replays for the thousandth time and reelect Tony Blair. Give George Bush a knighthood and torture more innocent people on Diego Garcia and invade more countries. Don’t forget their goods which you will steal and house them in the greatest warehouse of stolen goods in the world, the British Museum. Then sit down on your cardboard boxes and watch WWII reruns and keep telling yourselves you won the war, no matter that 80% of German military casualties occurred on the Russian front. Then visit websites and obsessively and in a deranged way downvote anything that smacks of reality.

Anticitizen one
Anticitizen one
Apr 6, 2019 1:59 PM
Reply to  Northern

I don’t like having to say this but George, you are really beginning to sound like another George who is often spoken about on off guardian. We are all entitled to our opinions though, unless they go against the establishment agenda.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Apr 3, 2019 9:46 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

”Lots of well-written sophistry, Frank. How about answering the question neutral outsiders are asking? If this is so great and people are really persuaded, why not have a second referendum?” Why not have a second referendum? Because the outcome of the first does not justify a rerun of the second, assuming that everything was legal and above board the first time around. It this is the way that it works. You have to parties or constituencies vying for power by the simple procedure of a vote for all registered voters. Let’s call them party A and party B. Whichever polls the most votes, and as long as everything was legal and above board, they win the election/referendum – bang, the issue is settled. Didn’t like the result? Too bad, better luck next time. But of course that is not the EU way. If the EU receives an electoral defeat, as… Read more »

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 3, 2019 10:40 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

My well-funded backers? What on earth are you talking about? I am a single individual retired academic and have not discussed this with anyone from the EU. You are welcome to my opinion but my motives are simply as a friend who lived in the UK for 20 years who thinks you are getting this wrong.

There already is an open sore and an open Pandora’s box. Are you saying you will respect a vote only if it suits you? Some democracy!

David P
David P
Apr 4, 2019 12:15 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

With respect, I think you are missing the point. The issue is not with the incredulity of the leave voters but with the duplicity of the politicians offering a referendum with only one option, to remain in the EU. Theresa May was foisted on the public to ensure that Brexit never happened. As for a second referendum, the only outcome of the first one was to ensure that no referenda would ever be held again. After this charade is over, we will be lucky to get a vote on anything.

mark
mark
Apr 4, 2019 3:37 AM
Reply to  David P

Maybe we should hold a referendum on whether we should have another referendum.

Or we could hold a general election with Theresa May as the only candidate. That worked quite well in the Soviet Union. And it would give her a convincing mandate with 99.99% of the votes cast. End all this unnecessary confusion.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 4, 2019 2:10 PM
Reply to  David P

Point taken. But all that will fade into the ether. What will be left are the actual profound consequences. Don’t let your anger at the weasel-pols blind you to that.

Some Random Passer-by
Some Random Passer-by
Apr 4, 2019 7:46 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

@George C

For someone who isn’t bothered about in or out, you certainly talk some bollocks

George Cornell
George Cornell
Apr 4, 2019 2:14 PM

Well-spotted you! I am a paid troll who gets a capitation for every punter I can keep in the EU yoke. See my more serious reply below to your other insightful comments.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Apr 4, 2019 6:41 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Errrm, well funded by billionaires such as

‘The 87-year-old billionaire – George Soros – backs Best for Britain, an anti-Brexit group that’s calling for a second referendum. He has reportedly donated more than £700,000 to the campaign.’

‘The Hungarian-American has long been vocal about the vote to leave the EU, and previously said he refuses to “butt out” of the debate because the decision to leave was a “tragic mistake.”’

First published in Politico 05/29/18, an influential publication read widely in the US and worldwide.

mark
mark
Apr 4, 2019 3:24 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

Why limit yourself to just two referendums? Why not half a dozen, or 15, or 111?

mark
mark
Apr 4, 2019 5:08 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

What’s the point of a second referendum?
We’ve had one already, and the result has just been ignored.

Geoff D
Geoff D
Apr 3, 2019 5:47 PM

You point out empty supermarket shelves ans riots, I Wouldn’t doubt it for one minute, we witnessed that nonsense with KFC last year when people were phoning the police because we couldn’t get their meals, as to regards deregulated work force ,as far as I’m aware the only European country that pursues that is this shithole, is there any zero hour contracts in the EU, ant where in the EU where you have to give the employer 7 days notice of industrial action, and you think this will be reversed do you if we leave? you need to wake up.

Butties
Butties
Apr 3, 2019 6:06 PM
Reply to  Geoff D

Don’t you think it would be easier to change this on the basis on one single vote (ie a UK election). How do you envisage changing things via and unlected Commission?

Michael Cromer
Michael Cromer
Apr 3, 2019 5:46 PM

If the ‘Good Friday’ Agreement is preventing me from legally leaving the EU then why was it ever allowed into law?

Butties
Butties
Apr 3, 2019 5:32 PM

To make it easier to read here is a summary of WTO Art 24 (I only wish I had the tech to highlight the best bits in red!) WTO Rules Extract Article 24 5. Accordingly, the provisions of this Agreement shall not prevent, as between the territories of contracting parties, the formation of a customs union or of a free-trade area or the adoption of an interim agreement necessary for the formation of a customs union or of a free-trade area; Provided that: (a) with respect to a customs union, or an interim agreement leading to a formation of a customs union, the duties and other regulations of commerce imposed at the institution of any such union or interim agreement in respect of trade with contracting parties not parties to such union or agreement shall not on the whole be higher or more restrictive than the general incidence of the… Read more »

Butties
Butties
Apr 3, 2019 5:27 PM

It really is risible to see the Remainer MP’s squealing. The vote for sending Article 50 had a huge majority. None of these squealers are on record as trying to add any conditions that would have allowed an extension or cancellation. Same with the Withdrawal Act, passed by a huge majority with no codicils about Withdrawal Agreements (WA) or anything such like. Now we have all sorts of tactics to thwart what they voted for, Cliff Edge, Disaster, Armageddon, Medicine Shortage etc, if we don’t have a WA, you name it. All nonsense. If we leave on WTO then the trade with the EU can remain exactly as it is now under WTO Article 24, ( see https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/region_e/region_art24_e.htm ) if the EU genuinely want a Free Trade Agreement. If they don’t then they are open to tariff charges of the 90 billion + trade surplus they currently enjoy, should the… Read more »

Toby
Toby
Apr 3, 2019 3:39 PM

Thank you for this!

Now, to those who have not, please read this:

Lord James: Remaining in the EU will constitute perjury by the Queen

I am not an expert, so am happy to be directed to any information that reasonably gainsays the author’s position, but from what I have read and heard – from many sensible and qualified sources – Lord James writes the truth.