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Comment Set Free: the Mueller indictment

There are three stories about the Justice Department’s Internet Research Agency indictment headlining at the Guardian right now, and, at the point of writing, none of them are open for comments. So here is our latest “Comment Set Free”. Please let us have your thoughts on the following (or any related articles that appear):

1) Robert Mueller charges 13 Russians with interfering in US election to help Trump

2) Mueller’s indictment of 13 Russians strikes at the heart of the meddling matter

3) Ten key takeaways from Robert Mueller’s Russia indictment

The full text of the Justice Department’s Internet Research Agency Indictment can be read here


90 Comments

  1. OurManinBrazil says

    The Guardian did open comments on one of its articles about this. The top comment: “The Putinbots are out in force today”.

    You really can fool some of the people all of the time

  2. Oh how this conspiracy has managed to morph into a virtual nightmare and setting us poor sheeple for the next phase of the this incoherent dystopia and myopic post modern version of Orwell’s Animal Farm and 1984. They must think that all we sheeple in the dying paradigm that we refer to western civilisation are all on psychotropic meds or have been taken over by some alien being to really fall for such tripe. I mean yes is their any semblance of intellectual honesty in our dysfunctional western society that the average Joanne or Joe can really start to get a grip of our sorry ass lives riddled with debt and uncertain economic ,social or intellectual future or should we be keeping up with the Khardashians or Melania Trumps latest revealing secretive life under the new imperatore des Pax-Americana. The largest wage and economic gap since the gilded age the perpetual ruination of sovereign states and the so called highest number of tertiary educated people and we have come to this. Gee the Gods are really pissing themselves with laughter over this not so black comical affair that we call western societal talking points. I can see all the security services in China and Russia just laughing their guts off of how morally,culturally and intellectually bankrupt western society has become .

    • Indeed, b was one this in 2017 as well. What this guy did (who is not “Putin’s Chef”, a term that uses the ever-favorite smear of putting something next to Putin to make people think there is guilt among both parties) is what every sleazy purveyor of fake profiles and fake likes does. If you have done any work in marketing or social platforms, you will have seen dozens of the same outfits. I’ve even seen them in operation, delivering tons of fake followers and such. The goal is straight up sleazy commerce, and it should be noted that ALL the social platforms, especially Facebook, not only tolerate this but turn a blind eye as it makes their platform appear to have more users than it actually does. They’re also happy to sell you ads that will target these fake people, pocketing the cash without achieving any results for the business owner buying the ads. Meanwhile, the US Cointelpro operation continues, masquerading as an actual investigation.

    • Thomas Peterson says

      Yeah I can buy MoA’s theory.

      The election was a hot topic, so why not set up some accounts discussing the election to attract eyeballs for adverts?

  3. MichaelK says

    More dreadful stuff from the Guardian’s conspiracy farm… https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/17/putins-chef-a-troll-farm-and-russias-plot-to-hijack-us-democracy

    It’s a really awful sign of the times we live in, when the Guardian, supposedly a beacon of truth and true liberal, left-of-centre values, is so eager to swallow stuff like this latest report from Mueller on face value alone without any examination of the wider internal US context; the people and forces Mueller represent.

      • Both you and Michael K are right: The Fraudian swallows and regurgitates this rubbish at the same time. Garbage in, garbage out.

        • I saw last week The Guardian crowing about getting loads of nominations for the National Press Awards.

          I wonder if there’s a category for Most Debased Newspaper?

    • George Cornell says

      Actually fewer and fewer suppose that the Guardian is anything other than a particularly hypocritical smarmy voice of the Establishment. They seem to think if they numb the minds of the reader with incessant gender counting drivel, and innumerable genderista columnists, no one will notice the neocon, or should I say neoKhan, flavour of their articles and editorials on geopolitics.

      If they were really interested in what they profess, why were they silent about Polanski for decades? Why were they mum about Lord Janner? Why were they close-mouthed about Oxford, Rotherham, Rochdale, Newcastle? Why did they not take up Hillsborough? What ever happened to the Westminster pedophile story?

      This all seems like posturing and posing so they can influence what really matters to them and for that one often has to read between the lines. I now read it only when my blood pressure is too low.

  4. MichaelK says

    Of course the New York Times and Washington Post have reacted to this like US Cavalry coming to the rescue in the last reel of a 1950’s B-movie… by demanding that Trump apologizes and accepts that their stories about Russian interference in the elections, were true and had nothing to do with ‘fake news.’ How convenient for them! After all this time, this is what Mueller can come up with, give me a break!

    It’s all so pathetic. There’s no way these Russians will receive a fair trial in the US, even if they decided to turn up for a hearing. Maybe they should sue Mueller for libel, go on the offensive? So Mueller’s accusations are ‘free’, cause he knows the Russians can’t really reply. It’s a kind of smear.

    And what about conflating ‘Russians’ with ‘Russia’ all the time? A hacker or troll living in Russia doesn’t represent ‘Russia.’ There’s this ghastly wave of hysteria sweeping the United States and it’s dangerous. What’s appalling is how the left/liberal press, typified by the ghastly Guardian, goes along with it all, without a murmur of protest, criticism or real searching analysis.

  5. The title and description of the linked article is right from the Time Magazine web site:

    (( Yanks to the Rescue: the Secret Story of How American Advisors Helped Yeltsin Win ))

    article description from Time’s site –

    “THE SECRET STORY OF HOW FOUR U.S. ADVISERS USED POLLS, FOCUS GROUPS, NEGATIVE ADS AND ALL THE OTHER TECHNIQUES OF AMERICAN CAMPAIGNING TO HELP BORIS YELTSIN WIN”

    https://ccisf.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/201612201405.pdf

    This is how you really “rig an election” to get “your puppet” into power in a foreign nation.

    • What we do ‘in secret’ we must expect to be secretly arraigned against us, and the knowledge that we do such thinks enforces the conviction the ‘Other’ is a deceiver, whatever they say or do. Because such is our own false witness.

  6. Big B says

    With this indictment: Rod Rosenstein has come clean and delivered on solemn oath that the entire Russiagate farrago is baseless and evidence free. The only thing he has truly indicted is the obvious and continually developing disassociation of the American ruling class psyche from reality.

    “‘We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality.”

    An empire of unreality that can no longer be connected to the experiential, discernible and true. Such men are the architects of the demise of the dominant culture of lies?

  7. “a grand jury would ‘indict a ham sandwich,’ if that’s what you wanted.” – Sol Wachtler

    Grand Jury indicts Yevgeny V. Prigozhin of Concord Catering, that among other things does school meals such as ham sandwiches.

    The USA is a farce, wrapped in a satire, inside a parody.

      • Kaiama says

        I’m not sure you are qualified to assessthe true extent of my knowledge.
        The Saker has more logic, experience, and readership than “Matt” whom wedon’t knowanything about!

        • Pointless ad-hominem response, devoid of any specific criticisms. I present my arguments in that comment I linked. Either critique them or don’t rely on fallacious reasoning just because you can’t prove me wrong.

          • Kaiama says

            Troll Alert. Where are you published articles putting forward our view. Both Moon of Alabama and The Saker have far more reasoned output than comments for the likes of yourself. Your first attack on the Saker was an ad hominem attack rubishing his point of view without providing any alternative reasoned argument.

            • No, both Saker and MoA use weak arguments and logical fallacies. Not to mention that both theories contradict each other, so at best, one of them is wrong and at worse, both are wrong.

              Regarding my “first attack”, it was a comment I left on that Saker article. So, no, I did not use “ad hominem” against anyone, nor am I a “troll”.

              Once more, either criticize my arguments directly, or don’t bother calling me pointless names. I’ve addressed both articles, and everyone here has just said that they “make sense,” without any critical thinking.

              Are you even capable of engaging in debate without resorting to ad hominem to replace your lack of argument? I doubt it.

      • Well the fact you find it per se impossible the CIA would run a fake “Russian troll” outfit says more about your utter naivety than anything else. I’m not completely convinced that is what is going on in Savushkina Street. I think MoA is closer in pointing out it’s just a slightly dodgy internet marketing outfit who are paid to say nice or nasty things about a whole range of things, mostly non-political.

        http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/02/mueller-indictement-the-russian-influence-is-a-commercial-marketing-scheme.html#more

        • It has nothing to do with “naivety”. It has to do with the hilarious logical leaps, devoid of evidence, that the “Saker” author makes to somehow “prove” that the trolls were CIA agents.

          Regarding MoA, similar to above, the author relies on logical leaps to normalize the information war scheme. The central claim made is that this was just a “commercial scheme” to sell the information of Americans to marketing companies. It’s a pathetically weak argument. Staging rallies, banking fraud, political canvassing, hacked emails, etc. all prove that this was not just a simple “commercial” enterprise. Add to the fact that this guy is a close friend of Putin. I guess “b” thinks we’re all a bunch of fools. Read the comments under b’s “analysis”. They all consist of “wow, great work! so clear!” People are gullible these days.

          The Russian media themselves exposed the troll factory and its internal communications were leaked back in 2014.

          This is not fake or a hoax. It’s the truth. Unfortunately, the so-called “anti-imperialist” Left has become so toxic to any news that portrays the Russian government in bad light and the U.S. government in positive light, that it will find any creative excuse to delude itself.

          • Would that be the Russian media that’s in your view completely controlled by Putin? Why would the state media expose a state-controlled government troll factory?

            • Oh goody, Matt is trying to take on The Saker. I expect he’ll be kept busy there and give Off-Guardian a break.

            • Admin, that is a strawman and you know it.

              I am not like the typical RussiaGaters who make all sorts of wild claims about Russia and Putin. Of course there is independent media in Russia. Lenta, RBC, Vedemosti, TV Rain, Insider, Fontkana (sic), etc.

              None of the above have English-lanuage websites, but I find that for the more long-form investigative pieces, they tend to translate them to English. If nothing else, Google’s new AI-powered translate gets the job done too.

              But yeah, outlets like RBC had incredible journalism on this very topic.

              I would even say that without the Russian independent media’s reporting, and the initial leaks by the Shaltai Boltai hacking group of the IRA’s internal documents, Mueller and co. would never have gotten where they were now. A lot of the information they used was only known because of the two aforementioned entities. Of course, the NSA was also used to eavesdrop on the trolls, as is evident by the recent WaPo article. And as Axios reports, FaceBook gave the FBI the private communications of the trolls.

              My hypothesis is that the only reason FaceBook ever found out about the trolls was because of RBC’s initial article on the topic, some time last spring, where it was able to list specific accounts run by the trolls. A few days after that, FaceBook began shutting down the accounts, causing a chain reaction. I assume they used RBC’s list as a lead, and proceeded from there. What does that tell us? That these claims have never been American in nature, but Russian, and consist of truthful statements made after painstaking research.

              In conclusion, this reflects poorly on our own MSM, who basically ignored the topic and did no independent research. Trump is perfectly right in this tweet:

              https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/965212168449941505

              There was never any collusion between Trump and Russia. But there was a disinformation campaign launched by Russia. The Democrats, sad about losing, made up a lie of Trump and Russia, which the Kremlin can now use to discredit any claim about interference, even valid ones like this. And the ensuing deceit has plunged Washington into chaos.

              It’s a sad state of affairs all around. And almost nobody in the MSM or alt-media gets it.

              • Of course there is independent media in Russia. Lenta, RBC, Vedemosti, TV Rain, Insider, Fontkana (sic), etc.

                Thanks for the clarification. Its strange though isn’t it that a supposedly tyrannical Stalinist state has more and better-funded opposition media than the supposedly “free” West. :-/

                • Now that is an entirely different claim. I never said there is “more and better funded” independent media in Russia.

            • Oh, and I forgot to say: it wasn’t the state media that exposed the troll factory. As I mentioned, it was independent media.

              • George Cornell says

                Important WP link which should be read widely, the propagandists at the Fraudian, the Washington comPost, and the New York Mimes included. It does echo what Admin has been saying.

              • Mulga Mumblebrain says

                Quoting the CIA outlet, the WaPo, AGAIN, as if that redounds to your arguments’ credibility. ‘Fraid not.

          • Georgina Lewis says

            Have you read the indictment?

            MoA isn’t just “claiming” this is what Prigozhin’s outfit is. It IS what Prigozhin’s outfit is by definition. It’s an internet promotion outfit, like thousands of others. Like all of them do, it has a pack of fake social media profiles and emails associated with almost every conceivable political or societal opinion in order t provide the right stamp of followers for any given individual or organisation.

            No one is denying this, not even Mueller, Mueller merely claims this one was being used to interfere in the US election.

            His indictment doesn’t even say the interference was being run by the Kremlin or any state agency.

            His indictment doesn’t even allege the activity was about getting Trump elected.

            This is how thin his stuff is.

            And Prigozhin isn’t a “friend” of Putin’s. He ran a restaurant Putin ate at sometimes.

            Out of this vague stuff, most of which is unconnected with politics and none of which has anything to do with anything alleged in Russiagate, the media tries to spin a story of concerted effort to get Trump elected, with Kremlin backing – NONE OF WHICH IS IN THE INDICTMENT.

            If you have bought this, you are the one being gullible.

            • “His indictment doesn’t even say the interference was being run by the Kremlin or any state agency. His indictment doesn’t even allege the activity was about getting Trump elected. This is how thin his stuff is.”

              How does any of that prove that Mueller’s claims are “thin”? Remember, Mueller has never claimed that Russia colluded with Trump. Because it didn’t. And therefore, he has not claimed that. All he’s done is looked at any interference, which the troll factory did so, and then looked at whether it was illegal or not. It’s that simple.

              “And Prigozhin isn’t a “friend” of Putin’s. He ran a restaurant Putin ate at sometimes.”

              No, that is not the whole story and you know it. Prigozhin is a close friend of Putin. He even funds the PMC “Wagner” group – that was recently wiped out in Syria by U.S. forces – whose members are trained at Defence Ministry outposts, and who made a deal with the Syrian government to protect their oil fields in exchange for a share of the profit. A man who can do this is not some random cook,

              • Mueller may not have claimed collusion but everyone else did from Steele on up.

                Remember?

                Collusion was the only story in town up until they realised they didn’t have enough to make it stick – so they pulled a 1984 and switched narratives mid stream. Now they have dupes and fools like you parroting “It was never about collusion” , proving nothing but your willingness to suspend your own judgement and believe black is white if the WaPo tells you it is.

                You think believing Oceania has always been at war with East Asia makes you cleverer than the ones who remember that it wasn’t true yesterday.

                You come here with your contradictory, illogical, Minitrue bullshit and call other people “brainwashed”

                LOL

              • PS – you don’t seem to understand even though it has been explained to you very very clearly.

                MoA isn’t making claims. He’s describing what Prigozhin does for a living. He runs an internet sock puppet firm who hires out fake accounts to people – celebrities, politicians, event managers, PR people, any one who wants to get attention online.

                Once again – this is not a theory. No one is disputing this is what Prigozhin does.

                Ok?

                Mueller’s indictment tries to make it look like Prigozhin’s sock puppet were working to an agenda, but the evidence barely fits. In fact it makes it absolutely clear all Mueller has is a bunch of these sock puppets being hired to do random stuff as is their wont. Some of it , very small scale, connected with the election, but without showing any preference for a given candidate, or even any coherence of political POV.

                That is literally all there is.

                As for Prigozhin being “close friends” with VVP. Where’s the evidence? You don’t have to be best buds with the Prez in order to pick up a few contracts in Syria.

                But I forgot – you lose all your scepticism as soon as you read something in your fave western comics.

                They wouldn’t lie to you would they? Not when you trust them so much.

                • Frequent insults, and even more frequent logical fallacies. Let’s address them:

                  Mueller may not have claimed collusion but everyone else did from Steele on up.

                  That’s nice, but I’m not talking about Steele. You made a claim, that Mueller’s claims are “thin” because he didn’t claim that Trump colluded with Russia. I responded by saying that Mueller is only investigating these claims and has never made these claims himself.

                  “Collusion was the only story in town up until they realised they didn’t have enough to make it stick – so they pulled a 1984 and switched narratives mid stream. Now they have dupes and fools like you parroting “It was never about collusion””

                  This only shows how little you know, hence your arrogance. The first articles on the Russian troll factory were published back in 2013 in the Russian media, and in 2014 for the Western media. This is long before the election campaign began, so how did “they pulled a 1984 and switched narratives mid stream” even before any of this started? Likewise, I always claimed from the beginning that there was no collusion, but that there was information war. This is not some “new” claim by me.

                  “MoA isn’t making claims. He’s describing what Prigozhin does for a living. He runs an internet sock puppet firm who hires out fake accounts to people – celebrities, politicians, event managers, PR people, any one who wants to get attention online. Once again – this is not a theory. No one is disputing this is what Prigozhin does.”

                  Sigh. You know nothing about the matter, do you? No, no one has given evidence that Progozhin “hires out fake accounts to people – celebrities, politicians, event managers, PR people”. There’s zero evidence of this and I challenge you to find it. I’ve been following news stories about the troll factory for years now, since 2014. All of the articles I’ve read, including leaked information, indicate that it had nothing to do with money-making activities and that it was purely designed to troll Russian/Western media websites with pro-Kremlin content. I’ve read all the articles, from both the Russian and Western media. Do some basic research before making a fool out of yourself.

                  “In fact it makes it absolutely clear all Mueller has is a bunch of these sock puppets being hired to do random stuff as is their wont. Some of it , very small scale, connected with the election, but without showing any preference for a given candidate, or even any coherence of political POV.”

                  First, most of the accounts supported Trump. Secondly, the fact that some supported Hillary doesn’t mean the troll’s work was “incoherent”. It simply means that they wanted to maximize the chaos caused. If that meant starting a pro-Hillary protest near a pro-Trump one, then so be it.

                  “As for Prigozhin being “close friends” with VVP. Where’s the evidence? You don’t have to be best buds with the Prez in order to pick up a few contracts in Syria.”

                  At this point, it’s clear that you haven’t read anything on this topic.

                  • George Cornell says

                    You make some good points Matt but don’t hide them behind Ill-advised invective. Try taking the high road, if you don’t mind me saying. Unless you want to create enmity more than you want to win minds to your point of view. Also don’t make it so much about you. Just words of advice from someone much older.

                    • Thanks for the advice, George. I admit that I got angry because of the other poster’s out-of-the-blue insults, but I’ll just ignore them from now on.

                      My views on most matters are a mix of all sides, so they tend to get me in trouble with practically everyone ;].

                    • Dear George,

                      Matt regularly trolls here at Off-Guardian and at other blogsites and websites that post alternative news. His style is to flood the comments forums with information cherry-picked from websites like Meduza.io and Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty whose views and prejudices agree with his own. He ducks other people’s arguments by going off at tangents and nitpicking on technical details. Invective against other commenters is part of his style. His Reddit hashtag is #DownWithAssad.

                    • George Cornell says

                      Thanks Jen. Maybe he can reform as he seems to be very young and energetic but short of focus.

                  • Thomas Peterson says

                    ” All of the articles I’ve read, including leaked information, indicate that it had nothing to do with money-making activities and that it was purely designed to troll Russian/Western media websites with pro-Kremlin content”

                    The indictment itself says the trolls were making money by charging to place promotional ads on their more popular account pages

                    • Their primary purpose was not to make money, however, They even paid real people to protest. Of course, it would make sense for them to capitalize the popularity of the more viral accounts, but that in no way indicates that this was ever a major goal.

                  • No, no one has given evidence that Progozhin “hires out fake accounts to people – celebrities, politicians, event managers, PR people”.

                    Seriously? Mueller’s indictment specifies the trolls hiring themselves out to western clients for money! I quote:

                    Point 95: Defendants and their co-conspirators also used the accounts to receive money from real U.S. persons in exchange for posting promotions and advertisements on the ORGANIZATION-controlled social media pages. Defendants and their co-conspirators typically charged certain U.S. merchants and U.S. social media sites between 25 and 50 U.S. dollars per post for promotional content on their popular false U.S. persona accounts

                    It’s RIGHT THERE in the indictment sunshine. Right. There.

                    How you have the fucking arrogance to call anyone else a useful idiot is beyond me.

                    • Hi MLS,

                      The claim I made doesn’t contradict what’s in the report. They charged people for ads on the more popular fake accounts, for money. But that was just an extra side thing, not the primary purpose. Their budget is $1-2 million a month, and the employees are paid in cash, under the table. This is not a for-profit enterprise.

                  • Dear Jen,

                    Matt regularly trolls here at Off-Guardian and at other blogsites and websites that post alternative news.

                    Stating something does not make it true. I have no idea where you got this “trolling” idea from, since I’ve never “trolled” here. Which of my comments here qualify as “trolling”?

                    His style is to flood the comments forums with information cherry-picked from websites like Meduza.io and Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty whose views and prejudices agree with his own.

                    Flood? I post 2-3 comments max per day. Give an example of me “flooding” the comments here.

                    He ducks other people’s arguments by going off at tangents and nitpicking on technical details.

                    Once more, give examples.

                    Invective against other commenters is part of his style.

                    I’m always respectful here, unless someone insults me first, as you saw with one of the commentators who began calling me a “fool” out of nowhere.

                    This is twice now that you’ve followed me around, and responded to another person having perfectly normal conversation with me, injecting yourself into the conversation and trying to smear me.

                    Jen, I ask that you please stop following me around various blogs and telling people that I’m a troll, especially when you can’t come up with examples. It’s a form of harassment, because I can’t have normal debate without you interfering. I know that we disagreed with each other on the “Kremlin Stooge” blog by Mr. Chapman, but that’s no reason to follow me around and “warn” people of how scary I am. Kindly leave me alone.

                  • Mulga Mumblebrain says

                    There are numerous ways in which your Russophobe agit-prop falls apart ‘Matt’. First, the IRA is a known commercial internet advertising outfit, that creates groups of followers around sock-puppet leaders, which groups are then sold to advertisers. The IRA started out doing this in Russia, and the US operations is only a small part of the entire operation. Numerous other such outfits were active in the US election, and Israel and the US Pentagon, and no doubt others, control vast troll armies that put the IRA effort well into the shade.
                    The quantum of anti-Clinton posts and the expenditure on them was MINUSCULE compared to the total media influence campaigns by the two leading parties. To ascribe some voodistic mesmeric effect to those efforts, half of which came AFTER the election, and concerned topics like puppy pictures, to affect the election in any way, is beyond ludicrous. Moreover there is no proof that the effort was ordered by ANY Russian Government official, let alone Putin. If the effort was directed to avert a Clinton Presidency, we can all be grateful, because, bad as Trump is, Clinton is a blood-soaked butcher, intent on destroying Russia, and long in league with Ukronazi fascists.
                    Then there is the question of hypocrisy, which in this case is beyond monumental. No other state in history has come anywhere near the relentless US campaign of malevolent interference in the internal affairs of other states. The record is unarguable-scores of interventions, election meddling, subversion, sanctions and outright invasions, by Thanatopia iself, or by murderous death-squad proxies, as in Nicaragua, Syria, Libya etc. To argue that Russia ‘interfered’ in the US election sham, while ignoring that record, and the USA’s malevolent interference in the 1996 Russian election in particular, is the mark of a really villainous hypocrite.

                    • Thomas Peterson says

                      Matt
                      February 21, 2018
                      Their primary purpose was not to make money

                      How do you know what their purpose was? Are you a mind reader or do you have inside information?

  8. mathiasalexander says

    Have you noticed how nearly everybody in charge of the Amerikan state is past retirement age?

  9. rtj1211 says

    Well we had Goldman Sachs CEO splashed all over the BBC website demanding UK remain in EU. After the Referendum. We had The Black Dude threatening to send us to the back of the queue if we were not subservient little vassals voting Remain. That was Headline News too. None of us asked the Black Dude to interfere in Our Referendum, but he did it anyway, because America does what it wants and everyone else gets indicted if they do the same thing back.

    Just ask yourselves this: if you had a mad dog fascist HillaryBilly campaigning for US President saying: ‘ NUKE (insert your nation’s name HERE)!’, you would just sit by and say, ‘Oh, none of my business’.

    Basic lesson to subnormal, cretinous Yanks: as soon as your election campaigns on foreign wars, foreign blockades, foreign threats to nation state sovereignty, it is no longer just your business. Any politician eho says otherwise, in fact any Yank who says otherwise, has lost all right to human rights. Why? Because you have said that the right to safety within a doctrine of self-determination for the rest of the world does not exist without kissing America’s ass….

    Stop treating Americans as anything other than violent, psychopathic cretins who should be incarcerated for the safety of the world.

    It is pointless treating them as human beings when they never behave like human beings…..

    • I treat others as I would in truth be treated, not as a result of any set of rules of ‘deservability’ made in my mind or acquired from any other, but because such is a core sanity of being that does not give worthship to hate and thereby become the think it hates.
      Oh I can feel hateful feelings – but these are MINE. and as mine they are in my power to release, rather than be defined and driven by.
      So I appreciate your points, but not your personal result.

      The elites operate on this sort of thinking:
      “It is pointless treating them as human beings when they never behave like human beings….”
      WHO defines what is a human being and how they ‘should’ behave?
      A set of rules?

      I agree that cause and consequence belong together – for only in recognising and accepting consequence can we reconnect with true cause – and so cause a different life than an attempt to deny and displace consequence to ‘others’ deemed unlike our self.

      Power class operates (manipulates) its population while people use others (manipulate) to evade their own responsibilities ie they give power away in exchange for what they get, or believe they have got rid of. For example, they have got rid of guilt by assigning blame to others who failed to act as their ‘rules’ required. Except the results of guilt are still active in their own minds and bodies and not in those who ‘fail us’.

      Manipulation in a pure sense would be for example holding a tool correctly so as to attain the desired result, but in the sense of manipulative deceit, it holds the consciousness in distortion so as to achieve a wished for result.
      Manipulative thinking – not Americans – runs the global agenda – and whatever agencies serve purpose, including the USA. It does so while conferring some sense of power and protection, in self specialness.

      If you are too angry to read and consider, that’s ok. But to assign it to a blanket blaming of Americans as unworthy of their humanity is playing the ‘god’ of vengeance. Perhaps this ‘god’ is the nature of the Beast.
      Playing ‘god’ is the attempt to make reality be as your own Word defines. The lack of support, encountered rejection and sense of betrayal that follows is the ‘wound’ of a terror that generates the ‘god’ of rage as power and protection.

      With regard to ‘headline news’, what ISN’T a psyop?

      • Mikalina says

        Whilst I fully appreciate the wisdom in removing the log from your own eye before you touch the splinter in someone else’s eye, there comes a time when you have to take the f***er out.

    • writerroddis says

      What, all Americans? The problem, surely, is America’s ruling class (definition available on request).

      • Mikalina says

        I understood Binra’s comments to mean that the evil we see in others is evil reflected from the unacceptable or unnoticed parts of our own conceived personas (could be wrong – I always wanted to be a philosopher but the washing up got in the way).
        The splinter/log discussion should not blind (ha) us to the fact that there is evil people out there and we have to physically do something about it.

        No, not all Americans! I’ll see your list of American ruling class and raise you a list of British ruling class.

          • Mikalina says

            Sorry for a third post – just occurred to me that there might have been an error in translation:
            English ‘take out’ = remove
            US ‘take out’ = remove permanently?
            To all Americans who visit Britain, if you are asked to take the dog out, please just go for a walk.

    • Woah. The level of brainwashing here, replete with Eastern-European English-lanuaguage insults (“cretinous”), shows just how effective the propaganda campaign by Russia is.

      When Obama said that you’d be sent to the back of the queue for trade deals, he was simply stating fact. He was explaining that the U.K.’s negotiating power would weaken without the E.U., as well as its importance when the U.S. would make trade deals. This is all common sense, and has nothing to do with him “threatening to send [the UK.] to the back of the queue if [you] were not subservient little vassals voting Remain”.

      “Basic lesson to subnormal, cretinous Yanks…..Stop treating Americans as anything other than violent, psychopathic cretins who should be incarcerated for the safety of the world. It is pointless treating them as human beings when they never behave like human beings…..”

      This comment received 17 upvotes. Well done everyone. This could not have been possible without anti-American propaganda from Russia, and of course, without the gullibility of Westerners.

      • Are you saying Obama didn’t make it clear he and his administration wanted the UK to remain in Europe?

        • That’s not what I’m saying. But Obama wasn’t alone – the Chinese stated their preference quite openly, something very uncharacteristic of them.

          The claim made earlier is that Obama was threatening Britain. I’m simply saying that it wasn’t a threat, just a statement of fact.

      • Mulga Mumblebrain says

        The only propaganda’ needed to hold a negative opinion of the USA is a knowledge of history over the last 2-300 years, but particularly since WW2. Anyone at all cognisant of the USA’s UNRIVALLED record of interference across the world, relentless aggression, destruction, genocide and economic bullying and coercion, simply must hold a negative opinion of the US state, of be a complicit stooge in its crimes. To blame Russia for the hatred of the US state by informed people really reveals you for what you are ‘Matt’.

  10. THE “INTERNET RESEARCH AGENCY” IS A HOAX

    Mueller’s indictment rests on the false claim that the suspended ‘Russia-connected’ Twitter and Facebook accounts were controlled by a non-existent company and 13 Russian individuals in Saint Petersburg. The only thing that connects the anonymous U.S. accounts to Russia or the hoax “Internet Research Agency” is that they may have used some Russian VPN service to hide their identities from NSA and FBI spies.

    Twitter and Facebook self suspended the accounts based on some connection to Russia, including use of Russian IP addresses or Cyrillic letters in administrator names. They had no way of knowing if all accounts were controlled from a single “troll factory” or if that troll factory was operated by a company named “Internet Research Agency”. (If they had such information, they would have said so.)

    The whole thing is hoax. It is impossible for Russians to impersonate American internet personalities, when they are unable to speak up in English under their own names. Russia does not have the people and skills needed to maintain English language accounts that would influence and resonate among the American audience and electorate – yet alone do this at a minimum wage in a “troll factory” sweatshop.

    I personally know almost all pro-Russian English-speakers that have an influence on English language alternative and social media. None of them are Russians. If they ever were, they emigrated decades ago. There is no one that can translate Russian talking points from Russian society and media into the English speaking wold.

    • “Russia does not have the people and skills needed to maintain English language accounts that would influence and resonate among the American audience and electorate…There is no one that can translate Russian talking points from Russian society and media into the English speaking wold.”

      Your entire argument is weak, but this claim stands out the most. A country with ~145 million people can not muster a mere 80 people (the number of people confirmed) to post English text online? Ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that most of the employees were young students or recent-graduates from the nearby St. Petersburg University. Further, their professions included the fields of journalism and other liberal arts courses, many of which require English proficiency.

  11. The amerikans will be relying on the Russians never getting their day in an open court. Can’t have a repetition of the George Galloway business see here now can we?
    The ‘grand’ jury process is even more corrupt deceitful and one sided than so called senate inquiries. At least with shit hurled from the hill, a bloke does eventually get the opportunity to speak against the allegations – albeit in a controlled environment where the accuser chairs the meeting, but a Grand Jury, which is similarly controlled by the prosecutor, provides no room for a defense argument.
    The carefully hand selected ‘jurors’ unlike amerika’s senators, most of whom are graduates of amerika’s prestigious law schools, lack any legal training.
    The law they are charged with investigating breaches of, is complex, riven with contradictory precedents and completely outside any retired contractor’s area of expertise. So they rely on the prosecutor to tell em what’s what.
    amerikans are forthright in their condemnation of everyone else’s legal system but the amerikan one has to be the most corrupt power serving travesty known to man.
    Ask J. Assange who lives under the shadow of a so-called ‘sealed indictment’ which he’s not even meant to know exists, much less what is contained in it and what deceits have been told by alleged ‘co-conspirators’ aka jailhouse snitches.
    Assange will find out should he ever be kidnapped and abducted to amerika and held in solitary isolation under the 1917 espionage act – otherwise like many others including hundreds who have never even set foot in that arsehole of the universe, the us, also stitched up by grand jury, he must live in ignorance of the accusations and with no right of reply.

    • summitflyer says

      Thank you for the link to George Galloway’s interrogation .He sure told them in no uncertain terms .The US justice system seems to be corrupt beyond redemption .So glad I don’t live there and feel sorry for the ones that do to be honest.

  12. When will we discover who in Britain gave Steele authority to send his Dossier to the Clinton campaign? He needed that approval because the information was gleaned when in post as the Head of the Russian Desk of MI6 in quite recent times, apart from the normal requirements of the Official Secrets Act. Given that MI6 are an Intelligence Agency it’s fair to assume they knew the Dossier’s destination and the purpose to which it was to be put. Wasn’t that interfering in the US election?

    • Big B says

      Former intel analyst and regular UK Column guest, Alex Thomson, named Sir Richard Dearlove (he of dodgy dossier No1, seems to have had a hand in dodgy dossier N02?) However, I can’t find the exact day or time for reference.

  13. The absurdity is that America spends billions on doing exactly these sort of things. $5 billion on Ukraine before pulling off the coup, according to Nuland. But that’s just a crumb of the total mis-information cake. It’s what the CIA spends most of its time doing!

    • That $5 billion figure has been debunked.

      Politifact directly asked the State Department and looked at public information released by the U.S. government since 2009 to sample what the money was spent on:

      http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/

      Since 1992, the government has spent about $5.1 billion to support democracy-building programs in Ukraine, Thompson said, with money flowing mostly from the Department of State via U.S. Agency for International Development, as well as the departments of Defense, Energy, Agriculture and others. The United States does this with hundreds of other countries.

      About $2.4 billion went to programs promoting peace and security, which could include military assistance, border security, human trafficking issues, international narcotics abatement and law enforcement interdiction, Thompson said. More money went to categories with the objectives of “governing justly and democratically” ($800 million), “investing in people” ($400 million), economic growth ($1.1 billion), and humanitarian assistance ($300 million).

      The descriptions are a bit vague, which could lead people to think the money was used for some clandestine purpose.

      But even if it that were so, the money in question was spent over more than 20 years. Yanukovych was elected in 2010. So any connection between the protests and the $5 billion is inaccurate.

      The State Department created ForeignAssistance.gov to help taxpayers, journalists and others find out where the money is going, but the data is limited in the number of years available and not reported by all agencies.

      From that website, we calculated the United States spent $456.4 million in Ukraine since 2009. Again, that’s an incomplete picture based on incomplete data reporting.

      Some examples? The United States spent about $20 million on Peace Corps programs in Ukraine over the past four years. It spent about $40 million through U.S. AID on health programs in the countries since 2010 — fighting HIV/AIDs, malaria and providing for maternal and child health. The United States spent an additional $80 million or so working on projects related to weapons of mass destruction, according to ForeignAssistance.gov.

      • Since 1992, the government has spent about $5.1 billion to support democracy-building programs in Ukraine….

        But let’s be clear, by “democracy building programs” they mean sending in NGOs to promote the “values” of austerity and debt, and they mean funding candidates for elections approved by the IMF because they have agreed to promote austerity and debt. They aren’t promoting democracy, they are promoting the western political belief system. They are also acting to disenfranchise and discredit people who don’t support this system. Just as Yeltsin in Russia, so Yarushenko, Yatseniuk & Poroshenko in Ukraine – men prepare to tank the standard of living for ordinary people and asset-strip the country.

        Whether that $5 billion was spent over ten years or twenty the result has been the same.

        The United States spent about $20 million on Peace Corps programs in Ukraine over the past four years. It spent about $40 million through U.S. AID on health programs in the countries since 2010 — fighting HIV/AIDs, malaria and providing for maternal and child health. The United States spent an additional $80 million or so working on projects related to weapons of mass destruction, according to ForeignAssistance.gov.

        Have you noticed how whatever money is allegedly spent on this worthy projects the countries receiving never seem to improve? They all become debt-slaves, they all end up exporting cheap goods to western countries and letting the IMF tell them how to run things.

        • One must be specific in these claims. I’ve given specific evidence for what the $5 billion was used for. And it had nothing to do with influencing Ukrainian elections in 2014, which is the dishonest claim made by the Russian media/government/Western alt-media.

          • Georgina Lewis says

            Some of it has to do with influencing Ukrainian elections in 2014 (and 2004), just not all of it.

            You do realise right that the US govt openly boasts about interfering in foreign elections, including Russia and Ukraine?

            Openly boasts.

          • Mulga Mumblebrain says

            When a LIAR like you makes a mistake, it’s often a whopper, because you start to believe your own lies. The expenditures in 2013-4 were primarily on the Maidan Colour Revolution, where fascist storm-troopers were trained in Poland and the Baltics, then unleashed in Kiev, culminating in the trade-mark sniper attacks, now well established as being undertaken by killers on the US pay-roll, then the violent fascist putsch. The CIA effort, in particular, was massive. The ‘elections’ that came after, amidst Ukronazi death-squad terror, the ethnic cleansing of millions from the Russian-majority east, and the banning of Russian as a second language, plus the murder of numerous ‘Party of the Regions’ operatives, were as sick a farce as the recent Honduran ‘election’, and numerous other ‘demonstration’ elections over the decades, in US-controlled stooge regimes.

            • George Cornell says

              An attractive feature of this site is the civil way the vast majority of posters address their peers.

              Calling/shouting someone a liar as you did, is simply a message to many of us that the rest of what you say might suffer from the same lack of judgement. Don’t do it. It really doesn’t help your arguments. Since so much of what we think we know comes from newspapers, people will commonly be misinformed, even you.

              • Mulga Mumblebrain says

                He IS a liar, in matters of EXTREME importance. Lying about his lying doesn’ t enhance your reputation, and keep your impertinent pontificating to yourself.

        • George Cornell says

          The Peace Corps programs in some countries have been spying exercises with the idealistic volunteers being pumped for info they were told to collect.

      • By “human trafficking issues’ I assume they simply mean that they fudn human trafficking.

      • Mulga Mumblebrain says

        ‘Politifact’ is a propaganda farce-like you. The figure ‘five billion’ came straight from Nudelman’s mouth. Was she lying, or boasting?

  14. Fair dinkum says

    It might be an opportune time for Putin to release the videos of Trump humping in Russia.

  15. Richard Wicks says

    An indictment is simply an accusation. Since all 13 (what a magical number) of these people are in Russia, and there’s no extradition agreement with Russia, they will never be able to get a trial to exonerate themselves.

    Meanwhile, Clinton was running a fraudulent charity and accepted 145 million dollars in “donations” from Russian Banks..

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