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More on the Skripal/Douma alleged false flag connection

Theresa May, March 2018

In regard to our suggestion, the latest move against Damascus was predominantly a UK project, a link was sent to us today to an article by Thierry Meyssan on Voltairenet that’s certainly interesting.

Published March 20 it puts forward the idea the Skripal affair was a false flag intended to be the launch pad for a wholesale diplomatic attack on Russia that Meyssan suggests would initiate a “new cold war.”

While it’s possible to question this terminology (many would suggest we already have a “new cold war” and are on the verge of it becoming hot), his narrative offers a valid interpretation of recent events, and indeed looks more persuasive today that when it was written.

What Meyssan suggests is as follows:

Back in March a projected coup was planned between the UK government and the neocons in Washington to create an irresistible drive to a) launch a full blown assault on Damascus and b) get Russia removed from the UN Security Council.

The means was to be first the Skripal incident and immediately thereafter a large scale false flag chemical weapon attack on Ghouta.

Rex Tillerson, then US Secretary of State, was involved in this plan.

However by some means (Meyssan doesn’t say how) the Syrian and Russian intelligence services became aware of the plan, and realised it was not the Pentagon behind it, but “some other agency.”

The Russians immediately alerted the media to a possible false flag.

At the same time, bypassing diplomatic channels (because he was concerned to avoid others who were siding with the “plotters”), Russian Chief of Staff, General Valeri Gerasimov contacted his American counterpart General Joseph Dunford to inform him of his fears of a game-changing intel-sponsored event in Syria. Dunford in turn informed Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, who told Trump.

Since this apparent plot was going on without the knowledge of the White House & Pentagon, Trump then told Mike Pompeo, the head of the CIA, to investigate.

As a result Trump became convinced Tillerson was involved and soon after, fired him.

This, in essence, is Meyssan’s story. He cites no source for the claims about back-channel communications, and we can’t verify them even slightly. But we all know Russia did indeed warn of a pending false flag in Syria several times throughout March, and developments since the time of Meyssan’s writing lend credence to the broad thrust of interpretation.

The orchestrated & hysterical response of the UK state machine to the Skripal event doesn’t just hint at agenda rollout, it shouts it. The idea this was indeed the first act of a make or break plan is certainly more than believable. Indeed we all heard the suggestion about removing Russia from the UNSC repeated in the media at the height of the hysteria.

Whether Meyssan is right or wrong, we absolutely did just see an orchestrated, high level operation unfold, apparently designed to discredit Russia finally and forever.

It suggests new levels of idiot-insanity going on. Not only is such a plan amateurish in conception (kicking Russia off the UNSC, even if achievable, is not going to suddenly neutralise their political and military power), it would seem to have been doubly so in execution.

The Skripal story is a farce. But the apparent attempts to go forward with the “chemical attack” when all rationale for it was gone and when Douma itself was about to fall, shows stupidity beyond comprehension. If this was the UK, as the Russians claim, rather than rescuing themselves they simply added another embarrassing failure to the list, and dug themselves even deeper into easily-exposed crime.

The entire situation must be a warning, and not just the usual cliché about the US being a danger to world peace.

It’s not “the US”, it’s an international grouping of ideologues and other cranks, focused as much, maybe even more, in the UK as in America. If Meyssan is right these people are highly placed, but operating subversively within their own governments. Of course we have always known these thing are true to some extent, but this latest event seems to be taking this subversion to a new level.

Seventeen years ago a  small group of highly placed individuals in the US government may have engineered or at very least allowed 9/11 to happen for their own geopolitical ends. We’d be naive to consider a second such event to be impossible.

It also seems clear those enacting this plan initially had little idea how dangerous it really was, and were to some extent astounded by the Russian reaction, and the horror expressed by the more sane elements in international government. This is also significant.

It’s a cliché in some alt media now to say the elites want WW3 and to talk about “population reduction” or some other meme. But, while it’s certainly true there is a strong eugenicist de-population cult in the upper echelons, it’s highly improbable any of them would choose a thermonuclear war as a viable method.

The real danger isn’t that a group of ubermenschen or Bond-villains want to incinerate humanity for vague and unspecified reasons, it’s that the deep heart of the Russophobic cabal is too dogma-driven and infested with idiots to understand the real world results of their plans.

We can be sure they won’t have learned from this and won’t be deterred from more of the same or worse in future. And if their next remedial scheme doesn’t get stymied by circumstance or nifty footwork, no one will be more surprised than they are when it kicks of WW3.

But they do have some opposition within the state machine, and always have.  There were people in the US and UK intelligence agencies who didn’t want to lie about WMDs, and there are people today in the UK FCO who off-record told Craig Murray about the lies being forced on them regarding the Skripal case.  These are people with enough smarts to want to avoid real confrontation with Russia, however prepared they are to play the public word games.

I think it’s important we address this more nuanced reality rather than opting for the security of familiar memes.

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vierotchka

Press Conference of Alexander Shulgin, Russian Representative to the OPCW
Streamed live on 16 Apr 2018
It comes with interpretation in English.

Cassandra
Cassandra

Pt. 2: WHY WOULD ASSAD DO IT?
The French govt also argues that the use of CW in East-Ghouta was both in a tactical and a strategical sense a (sort of) military stroke of genius but I’ll spare you the BS except for one argument:
The „strategic“ aspect was that Assad wanted to punish the civilians in „rebel-held“ areas and by creating „terreur et panic“ they achieved their aim of surrender.
„Because the war is not over for Assad, he wants to demonstrate thru these ruthless attacks that resistance is futile …“
This is bollocks of course because the Russians and the SAA are winning and have painstakingly negotiated with the „rebels“ and arranged for them to be evacuated in buses to Idlib. (Can anyone imagine the US-military doing such a thing after 7yrs of war?)
AND President Assad knows very well that the civilians in rebel-held areas were captives, treated like slaves, starved for food (sold by the synthetic “rebels” at exorbitant prices) and brutally executed if they refused to live under Sharia-law or supported Assad. So there was absolutely no need to „punish“ them for anything.
Coincidentally, high-ranking former British military officers totally disagree with the French “assessment” …
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5616533/Former-head-Britains-special-forces-says-Assad-doesnt-need-use-gas.html
… but the French stick to their surreal script ….
„Given the operational situation in Eastern-Ghouta on April 7, we estimate with high-confidence that the responsibility [for the non-existent CW-attack] can be attributed to the Syrian Regime“. (Sound familiar?)
And finally they put in this kind of „disclaimer“ when they say
„Les services francaises … are not in the possession of any information which would support the thesis, that these armed groups in East-Ghouta have endeavored to acquire CW for themselves or that they were already available to them.“
(Now that is a BIG Lie …even the MSM has reported that the “rebels” DID use CW ( i.e. see Carla del Ponte, Seymour Hersh and Scott Ritter on this)
„Furthermore we regard a manipulation of the released pictures as implausible, because the groups present in Ghouta had no access to the means necessary to exercise a communication-manoeuvre of this magnitude“ (!)
(this ridiculous claim does not even deserve a comment… their “PR” has been highly effective since it was directed and organized by MI6 …see voltairenet for more)
The biggest lie comes at the end when they claim that Assad has not declared all his CW to the OPCW, has kept a CLANDESTINE CW-programm all the time (since 2013), has intensified the use of CW continually and that the Russians are in on this.
And then follow the (by now familiar) highly-manipulative phrases which are supposed to be imprinted on our brains now:
– “Undoubtedly a chemical attack was launched against civilians on April 7 in Douma”
– “THERE IS NO OTHER PLAUSIBLE SCENARIO then the action of the SAA (CW-attack) as part of a major offensive to retake East-Ghouta”
– “Russia has undeniably actively supported these operations and the clandestine policy of the SARG for the use of CW”
As Sergei Lavrov recently said to the BBC “the proof is (apparently) in the punishment” .. it is crystal clear that neither the Briitsh nor the French gov’t is interested in a thorough, forensic investigation (whether in Salisburgy or in Douma) and the fact they have acted as prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner BEFORE any impartial investigation took place is proof enough of their duplicity …
What I find extremely puzzling is this: The Russians now say they have “irrefutable evidence” that Britain has instigated a false flag Douma (and obviously in Salisbury as well) . SO WHY don’t they show it to us???? Why not publish the findings of the Swiss lab? Is this some weird diplomatic code of conduct they adhere to?

Cassandra
Cassandra

President MACRON recently stated that he has „proof“ that CW were used in Douma and that it was the Syrian Army. Now the French govt has released the „evaluation nationale“ but it seems no-one is paying attention to it.
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/content/download/528742/9123389/file/180414%20-%20Syrie%20-%20Synthe%CC%80se%20-%20Les%20faits.pdf
After reading the document carefully one can only reach one conclusion:
There is NO PROOF whatsover in this evaulation and it is obviously addressed to an audience considered to be incapable of critical thought. The format of the document is rather revealing because it contains no offical ID from a French „service“ or ministry (just „Republique Francaise“) and the authors are unknown (so no official takes personal responsibility for its content, like the phony „assessment“ on CW released by the WH in 2017)
//assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3553049/Syria-Chemical-Weapons-Report-White-House.pdf
In order to find out who committed a crime, forensic evidence is extremely important, as we all know from detective thrillers and court-room dramas. But in this case, there is NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE (no criminal investigation by a CSI-unit). There are only unverified pics and videos posted on YouTube by the White Helmets (WH).
It is impossible to verify WHERE these pics/vids were taken and also WHEN because the metadata have been tempered with. The WH of course have NO CREDIBILITY whatsoever, being a cover for the massive „strategic information“ (incessantly demonizing Assad) created by MI6, who also ran the massive PR for the artificial „rebels“ in Syria. (See voltairenet.org for more on this).
And yet this is the basis for the „assessment“ of the French govt. They write that
„French experts have analyzed the symptoms (visible in the pics and vids) … which can be described as follows (respiratory distress, asphyxiation, cyanosis, skin-burns, excessive salivation, etc.) Taken together, these symptoms are characteristic für a CW-attack, especially for suffocating-agents. The use of asthma-sprays supports the thesis that such agents were used.“
So instead of a forensic examination and autopsy, all we get is an interpretation of symptoms to fit the frame of the Assad-gasses-his-own-people horror-narrative. To this, they add statements from anonymous people working (in Douma) for medical NGOs like UOSSM (created in France in 2011, PR-front group) and SAMS (US directed front group) who claim that about a hundred people „stormed“ their health facilities in Douma and at least 40 died as a result of the CW-attack.
They use medical staff of course as „CREDIBILITY-ENHANCERS“ because in general people tend to trust doctors, nurses and paramedics, hence the „White Helmets“ (and the faux „nurse“ telling the heart-wrenchning, invented tale of the incubator-babies in Iraq in 1990)
I asked a friend who works for one of the biggest chemical companies in Germany (BASF) about the symptoms and he said they are consistent with a chlorine-exposure but that does NOT mean that it could ONLY have been chlorine. Very similar symptoms occur when people have been exposed to SMOKE-INHALATION (German: Rauchgasvergiftung)
And now it gets really interesting because a video has been released by Russian and Syrian TV stations in which two medical students who work for the emergency department of the Douma hospital, say that the people shown in the WH-video had indeed been exposed to SMOKE-INHALATION.
A house in Douma had been hit by an airstrike which caused a fire in the lower floors and the partial collapse of the upper floors. So these people had breathing difficulties and were taken to the emergency dept of the hospital where they were given first aid. Suddenly some men appeared and shouted „this was a gas-attack!“. They then began to douse the patients with cold water (from a hose), which caused panic (children screamed of course). These „dramatic“ scenes were filmed then the strangers disappeared as quickly as they had arrived.
I cannot verify if these medical students told the truth, but given the political context, I have much more reason to believe them than the White Helmets or the French DGSE.
Just one more thing, the brochure from BASF about the dangers of chlorine contains one sentence that caught my eye:
https://www.basf.com/documents/corp/de/sustainability/employees/occupational-medicine/medical-guidelines/Chlor_D_BASF_medLeitlinien_D003.pdf ( German)
„Wasser verstärkt die oxidative und ätzende Wirkung von Chlor“
(WATER exacerbates the corrosive effect of chlorine (because hydrochlorid acid is formed through the moisture)
So why would medical experts then hose down these alleged „chlorine“ victims? Of course they would not. So this too, seenm to confirm that the whole scene was staged.

rogerglewis

That was an excellent read, thankyou.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

This is NOT a ‘French’ report. It is an Israeli Zionist pile of black propaganda, no doubt dictated by the CRIF, the de facto government of the slave state formerly known as ‘France’.

rogerglewis

Doing a little more tunnelling into the Rabbit hole.
A Bill Clinton reference to Karl Rove led to some interesting events surrounding the recently pardoned Scooter Libby.
http://bfy.tw/AKAh PARTICIPATE CLICK IT
http://letthemconfectsweeterlies.blogspot.se/2018/04/whats-empire-war-machine-ever-done-for_17.html
http://letthemconfectsweeterlies.blogspot.se/2018/04/whats-empire-war-machine-ever-done-for.html
@KarlRove https://bit.ly/2HFtLlh opposing Military Industrial Complex isn’t equal2 Putin Apologism. War(s) Crimes of aggression started for false reasons With no proper Investigative & War reporting from corporate media how 2 hold http://bfy.tw/AKAh #warmongerstoaccount
5:26 PM – 17 Apr 2018
https://twitter.com/RogerGLewis/status/986264537547632640
http://www.wetube.io/video/uss-cole-yemen-2000-whats-the-empire-war-machine-ever-done-for-us-uss-libert-2/

rogerglewis
Old Pepper
Old Pepper

The criminal group led by the red clown and the old Mare with the skewed muzzle continues the provocations. On Monday, the British representative in the OPCW accused the Russians of non-admission of OPCW experts in Duma. At the same time, the OPCW experts while in Damascus were expecting a solution of the Security Department of the UN, because controlled by the Britons the bandits were instructed to fire at the place where the white helmets organized the performance with a “chemical attack”. At the same time, the United States began to yell that Russian do not allow the OPCW experts to the Duma, seeking to eliminate traces of the “chemical attack”. This gang HIGHLY LIKELY thinks we’re all idiots.
The world is already clear that no poisoning of the Tablets was not, as there was no chemical attack by Assad. Clown and Mare managed to negotiate with the Russians and they did not respond to the shelling of Syria. Seeing that the Russian did not respond, the bandits completely insolen. And now they can arrange another chemical provocation and hit in Syria already on the Russians. And is not the fact that the Russian will not answer. This is war. I do not want because of a bunch of idiots, teasing the Russian bear, to a slaughter in which no one will survive.

rogerglewis

Watching the Commons Statement Yesterday from Theresa May and reflecting overnight I revisited some interactive Dada.
https://steemit.com/dumberanddada/@tonefreqhz/so-whats-the-industrial-military-complex-ever-done-for-us-interactivedada-karlrove-actorsinhistory-dumberanddouma
https://twitter.com/RogerGLewis/status/986157095945953280
We are watching Karl Rove’s actors in history. What is in the grey space and what do we have between our Ears?

Kaiama
Kaiama
Vera
Vera

@blackcatte
1] How well do you know and how long have you known Putin?
2] When did you last talk to him?

milosevic
milosevic

Is that the best you can do, troll?
Return to your CIA masters. Tell them that you have failed.

tomiejones

Reblogged this on circusbuoy.

Goldmember
Goldmember

The funniest part of Meyssan’s story is that Trump asked DCI Pompeo to investigate the false flag. What a nube.
Think it through. They didn’t say cabal, they said agency. DoS is not an agency, it’s a department. ‘Ideologues and cranks?’ ‘Highly placed, but operating subversively within their own governments?’ You are describing CIA.
https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/
That small group of highly placed individuals who did 911? That was CIA and their moles in key departments: Brennan, Blee, Cofer Black, Wilshire, Bikowsky, Bowman. The deep heart of the Russophobic cabal is not some secret society, it’s a longstanding CIA program. These programs look international because CIA uses eyes-only intelligence liaisons to conceal the dirty work they delegate to other countries’ agents.
The opposition within CIA is also institutionally chartered. CIA has a routine: dewy-eyed boy scout analysts secretly decry the insanity of the operations people. Then when the shit hits the fan, CIA publishes the anlysis and uses it to blame somebody else. That’s how they blamed Vietnam on the Pentagon, with their tongue-in-cheek Pentagon Papers. And that’s how they blamed Tillerson for their very own CIA plan and conspiracy for war.

milosevic
milosevic

This is a very promising thesis. I hope you can expand on it.
Another angle might be Nixon/Watergate/WaPo. Or Reagan/IranContra/North. Of course, JFK/Vietnam/Oswald goes without saying.

Ciaran Goggins

Was Calvin a Calvinist? If one believes in double predestination we already know the answer.

physicsandmathsrevision

Here’s a lecture given to FSB (KGB) students by a Russian professor. He says the world is governed by a “Conceptual Power” that exists above elected governments and that this template has been in place since 1350 B.C.. Very interesting at the very least:

Alan
Alan

Another article by Mr Meyssan
http://www.voltairenet.org/article200375.html
refers to the British regime
“…is elaborated by an elite gathered around the monarch, outside of any form of popular control…”
The idea of a deep state seems too convenient. In every sphere the regime exploits the population for it’s own requirements, if indeed the regime adheres to a nationality. Cold war, hot war are regime terms, all that matters is knowing who not to trust.

vexarb

Re BZ (British Zyklon?) the following lengthy clip from Saker’s “Curious Incident” discussion reflects OffG’s raison d’etre: that Facts Really ought to be Sacred. The MSM have abandoned this principle, as have the Leaders of F, UK and US regimes among others in the Western world. This is a huge reversal of human progress, and extremely dangerous for the world because the West now has runaway Technology without Ethics. BTL Saker:
vot tak on April 16, 2018 · at 1:09 am UTC 14.04.2018
Embassy Press Officer comments on the findings of the Swiss experts regarding the Salisbury incident
https://www.rusemb.org.uk/fnapr/6486
“Q. Is there any new information regarding the findings of experts from Switzerland in connection with the Salisbury poisoning?
A. According to information from the Swiss Federal Institute for NBC-protection in Spiez, its experts received samples collected in Salisbury by the OPCW specialists and finished testing them on 27 March.
The experts of the Institute discovered traces of toxic chemical called “BZ” and its precursors. It is a Schedule 2 substance under the Chemical Weapons Convention.
“BZ” is a chemical agent, which is used to temporary incapacitate people. The desired psychotoxic effect is reached in 30-60 minutes after application of the agent and lasts up to four days. According to the information the Russian Federation possesses, this agent was used in the armed forces of the USA, United Kingdom and several others NATO member states. No stocks of such substance ever existed either in the Soviet Union or in the Russian Federation.
In addition, the Swiss specialists discovered strong concentration of traces of the nerve agent of A-234 type in its initial states as well as its decomposition products.
In view of the experts, such concentration of the A-234 agent would result in inevitable fatal outcome of its administration. Moreover, considering its high volatility, the detection of this substance in its initial state (pure form and high concentration) is extremely suspicious as the samples have been taken several weeks since the poisoning.
It looks highly likely that the “BZ” nerve agent was used in Salisbury. The fact that Yulia Skripal and Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey have already been discharged from hospital, and Sergei Skripal is on his way to recovery, only supports such conclusion.
All this information was not mentioned in the final OPCW report at all.
Considering the above, we have numerous serious questions to all interested parties, including the OPCW.”

Sushi       on April 16, 2018  ·  at 3:04 am UTC

That statement on the part of RF embassy is good to see as it confirms my own supposition as recorded in Part X.
It is always nice to go out on a limb and then discover the rest of the world supports the finding rather than sawing off the limb 🙂
But I believe the big take-away from this event is the fact that the state is no longer held in check by the MSM. This means that the ordinary citizen is paying for an entity which is actively acting to subvert the interests of the citizenry. This is very dangerous.
These [truther] articles each get about 10,000 page views. This is a drop in the bucket in comparison to the total voting population of the UK, or France, or FRG or US or CA. If you believe this information is valuable then you should share it. You do not have to agree with all that I have written. It is quite possible I have made errors, drawn incorrect conclusions from the evidence etc, etc.

The key issue is that the MSM is not engaged in a review of an incident which, on any degree of review fails on the merits and is quickly exposed as false, deceptive and grounds for vilification of another state which I believe to be innocent of the allegations made against it. If I could find evidence of RF involvement I would gladly write that. But I cannot locate any such evidence.
This event is likely to be used to further justify illegal use of force in Syria. If the public comes to the belief that “Bad Vlad” is pulling all the strings then they will accept the march toward global war.
The problem is that the person really pulling all the strings is located at Number 10. If bad things happen they have a taxpayer financed bunker to retreat to. The ordinary citizen is not even assured of a working NHS.
_So if you find this series of value then address it with your family and other contacts._
Cheers!
WJ
WJ
WJ
WJ

US now explicitly commits itself to stay in Syria for purpose of…..Iran.
https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/nikki-haley-seems-to-be-saying-us-will-remain-in-syria-as-long-as-iran-exists

thorella

There is a very powerful deep state in the UK. I think its leadership is hidden deep in the Privy Council and enforced by MI5/MI6. It runs a hidden economy financed through crime – fraud against UK taxpayers, foreign countries etc, It controls the judiciary when need be. This speech by Gerald James although old gives some idea;
http://zersetzen.wikispaces.com/file/view/Gerald+Reaveley+James.pdf
The next link shows the involvement in crime:
https://goggzilla.wordpress.com/2017/01/10/not-only-was-the-mets-investigation-into-the-costello-affidavit-a-sham-but-so-was-the-authorities-entire-conduct-of-barry-beardalls-appeal/

intergenerationaltrauma

Excellent post Catte. Thanks. There is certainly serious dissension within the ranks of the U.S. establishment or we would not be seeing the various fits and stops and starts that have characterized both Trump’s appointments, and his subsequent removal of various appointed advisors, as well as his erratic foreign policy actions since he entered office. Trump himself was never “the problem” for the collective U.S. deep state, it was Trump’s stated goal of “getting along with Russia” that has prompted close to open warfare between factions of the U.S. ruling class and institutional structures. What is amazing to behold is watching almost the entirety of the leadership of the most powerful Western nations on earth morph before our eyes into a group of slapstick carnival clowns selling snake oil and war as if they were some sort of magic elixir sure to prolong their much cherished Western hegemony. Recent events have pulled the mask off of the facade of “Western democracy” to reveal the grinning death mask of a dying elite power structure, delusional, paranoid and grandiose to the bitter end.

flaxgirl

Fascinating article but …

Seventeen years ago a small group of highly placed individuals in the US government may have engineered or at very least allowed 9/11 to happen for their own geopolitical ends

???
May have? Allowed?
How many articles has OffG published on 9/11 that show unequivocally that it was an inside job? Seventeen years later with the vision of hindsight for those of us who did swallow the lies we can see how utterly silly we were. We can see so clearly how steel frame skyscrapers do not collapse symmetrically due to fires, how a band of men armed with boxcutters cannot negotiate the most restricted airspace in the world without an effective stand down – provided so very conveniently by 21 drills occurring on the morning of 9/11, some of which exactly matched the alleged real life events.
No further investigation needs to be conducted to know that 9/11 was an inside job – only to sort out the guilty and exactly what happened. In fact, all you need to know that 9/11 was an inside job is the undisputed 2.25 seconds of free fall acceleration in the collapse of WTC-7. That tiny piece of information is all you need. For free fall, the 82 steel support columns must have given way at virtually the same time and for that to have happened only controlled demolition could have been the cause … and controlled demolition can only mean inside job.

Catte
Catte

We’ve successfully proved the official story is a lie, but we haven’t uncovered what actually happened beyond there being foreknowledge and pre-planning of some kind. Who did the planning, how many people knew how much how long before it happened, we do NOT know.
Do we?
Let’s be as rigorous about the sceptical argument as we are about the official story.

flaxgirl

Catte, we do know for absolute certain that WTC-7 came down by controlled demolition, not by fire – it’s a matter of science – and that fact means inside job, however much it was also an outside job. It’s fine to be rigorous but if the facts are staring you right in the face that’s rigour enough. I simply do not understand reluctance to call things out when they’re in your face. It’s not as if a court hearing is necessarily going to give you a better answer, is it, but hopefully there’s going to be one soon where the truth will be revealed, at least as much as necessary.
10 April – Lawyers and Victims’ Families File Petition for Federal Grand Jury Investigation
According to the 52-page petition, which is accompanied by 57 exhibits, federal statute requires the U.S. Department of Justice to relay citizen reports of federal crimes to a special grand jury. The unprosecuted crime alleged to have taken place on 9/11 is THE BOMBING OF A PLACE OF PUBLIC USE OR A GOVERNMENT FACILITY — as prohibited under the federal bombing statute or 18 U.S.C. § 2332f — as well as a conspiracy to commit, or the aiding and abetting of, said offense.
https://www.ae911truth.org/news/447-lawyers-and-victims-families-file-petition-for-federal-grand-jury-investigation

Ross Hendry

I think Catte was saying we don’t know the people who were involved, etc. but she accepts that the official story is a lie.

flaxgirl

We don’t know who exactly but we know for absolute certain that rogue elements within government were involved. We definitely know it was an inside job, whatever outside involvement there was.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

How do you explain the ‘five dancing Israelis’ filming the attack as it happened, from Liberty Park in New Jersey?

Admin

How well-sourced is that? Video? Names? Documentation?

Google Talpiot Program
Google Talpiot Program

3 of the 5 appeared on an Israeli TV show afterwards where they said they were there to “document the event”.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1

Admin

Is this sinister? Several people filmed the event. No doubt these men could have had connections to Israeli intelligence, but that’s not automatic proof they were in on the plot. Big leap to just assume that. In fact you could argue the last thing any of the key insiders would be doing is advertising their connection by cheering and filming the event from on top of a white van.
Not excluding it, just saying it’s not an inevitable conclusion they were involved at all, and certainly no indication there were at the center of anything.

Google Talpiot Program
Google Talpiot Program

“Not excluding it, jut saying it’s not an inevitable conclusion they were involved at all, and certainly no indication there were at the center of anything.”
No one is saying they are at the centre of anything. That they were in a position to film, were reportedly celebrating, their story changed multiple times in interviews with law and enforcement and that they were possibly Israeli intelligence all adds up to making it an interesting detail.
Especially when all the other evidence of 9/11 is investigated and puts the dancing Israelis in context.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

LUDICROUS! They knew of the attack, before it happened. Others filming the atrocity were NOT wildly celebrating the deaths of thousands. They were attempting to pose as ‘Arabs’ to defame them. One told one of the arresting police that ‘Your enemy are the Palestinians’. The police found traces of explosives in their van. One or more failed lie-detector tests before they were simply released and allowed to go home to Israel, where they appeared on TV, one admitting to being MOSSAD.

Admin

Steady on. The source quoted above doesn’t say anything about wild celebration, it just says the five men were looking happy and smiling. That’s a bit weird of itself but don’t exaggerate it into something else. Thats just replacing memes with other memes. Maybe they were involved, but there are many other possibilities, including them simply watching the event with no direct connection at all.
What significance do you see in the traces of explosives? Are you suggesting these guys are the ones who wired the WTCs for demolition, and that they had brought the RDX/thermite there in that van, which they didn’t ditch but continued to drive around in?
Five guys with no known specialist knowledge, wiring three massive towers for demolition from one small van?
You don’t think it was likely a bigger more professional outfit that would do that? One – say – with permits to enter and renovate the towers/enter the lift shafts?

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

Your diversionary tactics are interesting. They were described as ‘dancing, jumping and giving each other ‘high-fives’. Obviously they were overcome with grief. The presence of explosive traces plainly has nothing to do so with the controlled demolition. It just seems odd, and suspicious. No-one at any time suggested that these five did the placing of the controlled demolition charges. Of course it was others, probably Israeli Death Force sappers. And they were NOT ‘just watching’-they were filming it, and from the first aircraft strike. Pretty prescient of them.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

9/11 irrefutably, I would say, was a MOSSAD operation, with US sayanim, and Sabbat Goy involvement, the US side centred on that Zionist Israel First cabal, the ‘neo-conservatives’. Christopher Bollyn does an excellent job of outlining the Zionist ‘ Clash of Civilizations’ and ‘War on (Islam) Terror’ projects, the latter, in particular, an endeavour of Netanyahu’s for decades. Everything that flowed from that event, the genocides in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and the destruction inflicted on those unlucky lands, the crucifixion of Syria, the regular, ritual, massacres in Gaza, are all creations of the Zionist elite, and follow closely the strategy outlined in the Oded Yinon Plan of 1982, which was reiterated by Netanyahu in the ‘A Clean Break’ manifesto.
Zionist control easily explains May’s involvement, as she is a groveling toady of the Netanyahu regime and the Holy State that sits above mere ‘International Law’. Apparently, when Netanyahu visited Putin in Sochi a year or so ago, and made certain demands on Russia in regard to Syria, and Putin rebuffed him, so great was Netanyahu’s distress at this insubordination by a mere goy that he lost self-control and went a little hysterical. Hence the renewed determination to keep the vivisection of Syria going, and prepare for Holy War on Lebanon and Iran. Of course Bibi’s path is that of the Masada Complex, he being a wannabe zealot ‘hero’, and he seems oblivious to the reality that unending Israeli aggression will only bring about Israel’s destruction, in the manner that it has inflicted ruination on its neighbours for 70 years.

bevin
bevin

“..Let’s be as rigorous about the sceptical argument as we are about the official story.”
Absolutely agree.
It is quite reasonable for someone to be convinced that, to use a popular argument on this thread, Corbyn is an MI 6 agent but if there is no evidence of this cited not only is it impossible to insist on the ‘irrefutable’ nature of the assertion but to do so is to discredit oneself, the discussion in question and, fairly quickly, the blog in its entirety.
It is one of life’s little ironies that off guardian, which insists that we weigh evidence rigorously where claims by the state are concerned, is becoming something of a refuge for assertions based on evidence just as sketchy and circumstantial as those put forward by the likes of Freedland and the BBC.
So 9/11 might have been a Mossad operation, just as Putin might have ordered the attack in Salisbury and the White helmets could be well meaning humanitarians discovering gas attacks.
Let us see the evidence before we agree that something is irrefutable, even when it is something as clear cut as the fact that Corbyn (already revealed to be a Czech spy, having once had tea with one) has had tea with an MI 6 agent and is therefore, connecting the dots, completely unreliable and no more to be supported than, say, Boris Johnson. The proof being that he did not oppose, we are told the Magnitsky Act, sponsored by his fellow agent (and PLP member) Ian Austin.
At any rate the Israeli Embassy can now call off their campaign against Corbyn who is revealed to be almost as big a friend of Israel as Blair- who even Roman Polanski knew was a CI Agent.

Admin

It is one of life’s little ironies that off guardian, which insists that we weigh evidence rigorously where claims by the state are concerned, is becoming something of a refuge for assertions based on evidence just as sketchy and circumstantial as those put forward by the likes of Freedland and the BBC.

Excuse me? Since when have we been guilty of that?

always write
always write

the buildings collapsed because they where sub standard shite built by the mafia, who controlled the main contractors including concrete, especially concrete as they still do in Italy
several years ago a company called Testwell Laboratories got taken to court in New York for falsified concrete and rebar reports, this is why those buildings collapsed, its called racketeering
Donald Trump infact had problems with concrete which was not strong enough, that was reported in the NY Times in 1997, a firm called Laquila supplied the ready mix, interesting name, because its the same name of a town badly damaged in central Italy years ago by an earth quake in 2007 again its stated that the high death toll, over 300 hundred, was due to substandard concrete and mafia infiltration of this industry
I’d suggest people look more closely at this side of things before coming up with elaborate theories about how buildings could collapse as they did, its simple really if entire floors had crap substandard concrete and incorrectly placed,or no rebar, plus inspections were falsely made then you’ll end up with a tower of crap, which collapses as it did
even after after the buildings were rubble the mafie got involved as they basically stole the scrap and sold it on

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

Ludicrous rubbish, but at least it is inventive.

BigB

WTC 7 did not collapse from faulty concrete!

always write
always write

how do you know?
have you ever worked on construction sites?
i have including bent ones, ones built like shite ,for example it didn’t supprise me when walls collapsed on dodgy PFI schools in Scotland a couple of years ago, ive seen exactly how it could happen as everyone wants to maximise profits and cut corners , tradesmen come and go no one takes responsibility now thats in the UK, think what it would be like on a job been overseen by the mafia?

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

Love your hasbara, old boy. I mean, buildings collapse in New York, every day, because of shoddy building. And the question in regard to the WTC collapses is the failure of the scores of steel beams supporting the building, NOT the concrete.

always write
always write

nothing ludicrous about it, the mob controlled the building industry in New York, and thats an absolute fact
do you honestly think they stick to building regs?
this is a clue they’re called criminals, so they probably don’t, this doesn’t mean that the US government didn’t have some sort of involvement no it simply means you have a sub standard building, more likely to collapse than one properly built

Google Talpiot Program
Google Talpiot Program

This is just a load of ridiculous conjecture.
Buildings (like WTC7) do not just collapse symmetrically and at freefall speeds even if the construction is bad.

BigB

Actually, I do have construction experience, but never mind. Building 7 irrefutably fell, at least to start, in freefall. So do you suggest that the steel frame and concrete completely and catastrophically failed at the same time? So much so that the observable top floor met no resistance at all? That defies logic and the laws of physics. The “piledriver” theory has long been debunked by AE. The concrete from the Twin Towers was atomised to fine dust. That alone rules out fire collapse or weak concrete. As to the Mafia, I believe you are right …but that does not mean that sub-standard building alone caused a sudden and catastrophic failure of three buildings on the same day. And please don’t come back with weakened by burning kerosene hogwash, I haven’t got time today!

always write
always write

the concrete was turned to dust because it was substandard
poor aggregate and not enough cement, exactly the same thing was seen in the Italian town of L’aquila when buildings collapsed, plus its common knowledge the mafia mixed the stuff, or are you suggesting some sort of “exotic” eplosive was used to destroy all the concrete?

BigB

If you know anything about building: you will know concrete is inherently weak – particularly in tension. The strength of the building was in the steel frame. To suggest both failed at once is beyond ridiculous. To suggest elements of the building were ejected laterally without adding energy to the system does not compute. It is not necessary to invent a plausible mechanism to refute fire collapse. It is necessary to propose new laws of physics to suggest the concrete fell off three buildings and brought the steel frame down simultaneously.

always write
always write

but you’re making the assumption that everything was done right, and not looking at why concrete would turn to dust, in your experience how does concrete turn to dust?
please explain it!
personally I’m suggesting one thing, which is this, theres a high chance none of it met with any building codes and was under the influence of crime families who made massive profits from the opportunity to exploit the building system in New York
you should check out the report by Ronald Goldstock about racketeering and the construction industry in New York all the evidence points to sub standard work and construction practices

Admin

It’s simple. No amount of substandard construction (for which you produce no evidence) can explain a free fall symmetrical collapse. Your argument is a) evidence-free and b) irrelevant. Do some reading before clogging up this page any more.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

This hasbara troll is truly poor quality, B. They must be desperate at Hasbara Central. The proposition that ALL the concrete in the WTC towers turned to dust because second-rate is stupid, mendacious and ludicrous enough, but what then of all the steel beams that mysteriously melted as if they were butter cut through with a hot knife? Does the hasbara operative have an equally ludicrous explanation of that?

BigB

Buildings don’t go rapidly from equilibrium to disequilibrium without a massive input of energy. In Italy, it was an earthquake, in NY, planes alone were not enough. All of the has been covered by AE911. Where’s the guy been for 15 years!

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

In Hasbara College-but he flunked out.

flaxgirl

There is nothing elaborate whatsoever in claiming WTC-7 came down by classic, controlled demolition, aka, an implosion. It’s irrelevant how substandard its material, how much fire was in it, or how much damage it suffered. The manner of its collapse tells all. Pre- and during- explosions, kink in middle at start, beautiful symmetry, near and partial free fall, complete dismemberment of steel frame and molten metal are all unique characteristics of controlled demolition while there is not even a lick of flame to be seen in videos of the collapse. WTC-7’s collapse by “fire” is the greatest case of the Emperor’s New Clothes the world has ever seen. I’ve done an Occam’s Razor exercise on the collapse of WTC-7 and offered $5,000 to those who support the official story to produce an equivalent exercise favouring the “fire” hypothesis. No one has been able to respond.
http://occamsrazorterrorevents.weebly.com/911.html

BigB

Bevin: if this comment is aimed in part at me, you are deliberately misrepresenting my assertions. No one on this thread, makes the accusation that Jeremy is an MI6 agent …except you. As you say, there is no evidence for this and personally, I do not believe he is. What I have empirically and objectively shown (previously with links) is that he can be co-opted by the Cabinet Office and JIC to conduit faulty intelligence fed to him. That does NOT make him part of the intelligence apparatus, only ancillary to it. To this end, it was interesting to note his actions this weekend: commenting on Syria. For this he sought, but did not get an intelligence briefing as a Privy Councillor. This was quite clear on the Marr show: he talked about “other parties” that may have perpetrated the Douma provocation …but he said “I don’t know, I don’t know” quite a few times. Corbyn “unbriefed” wants an OPCW investigation and a UN mandate to act: which is perfectly reasonable and legal. And probably clears up any false assertion that he is in the full-time employ of MI6?
Re: the Magnitsky ammendment. Not only did Corbyn “not oppose” this: he actively promoted it at every opportunity. As I have tried to make clear we already have “Unexplained Wealth Orders” which are analoguous to Magnitsky sanctions. We do not need another Magnitsky ammendment. This was the government position before 6th March. I do not claim that Jeremy is pushing this Act because he IS an MI6 agent: but I can quite clearly show he is pushing it FOR an MI6 agent. Thank if you do not conflate and impute meaning for me.
And no, I have not produced “evidence” that Browder is an agent for SIS: but if he is not, he might as well be? Or perhaps you think him an innocent human rights activist as he styles himself. What is irrefutable, empirical, and objective is that this one man is the source of much of the character assassination of Putin (from his “Enemy No1”) and Jeremy is pushing his agenda. Why: I do not know – naivety? Beyond that, I leave the speculation to you.
If Ian Austin is an agent, he would be a Mossad agent …but I make no such claim.
As for the Israeli Embassy: I have covered that elsewhere in depth. No, they will not call off their campaign. Yes, they already have a hold, and they are not far off gaining a veto control of the Labour disciplinary process: whereby anyone can be suspended on false accusations of anti-semitism: a position Jeremy has backed himself into by his strategy of appeasement.
All in all: I would say my assertions are grounded in empiricism, and I have not claimed anything I cannot back up. So facts are sacred: even if that means you do not like them?

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

I suggest immersing yourself in Christopher Bollyn’s excellent videos regarding Israeli planning for just such an operation, to be undertaken to provide the ‘New Pearl Harbor’ that the fanatic Zionist ‘neo-conservatives’ declared presciently would be needed to get the USA to do Israel’s dirty work in destroying the Moslem countries of the MENA. The evidence of Israeli and US sayanim involvement is huge, most circumstantial, but other parts, like the ‘five dancing Israelis’ seen filming the atrocity in real time, are rather more convincing.

BigB

I read one of Bollyn’s books, can’t remember the title. I take on a lot of his points: but I personally frame such events as transnational, or better still: supra-national. To say it was this or that country alone is not how I view it: the perpetraitors were ultimately working for a “higher cause”! Caitlin Johnstone just did a piece about this: the ultimate beneficiaries form a globalised superclass that is totally amoral and has no allegiance to any particular cause or country. Zinoviev termed this the Westernised “supra-society”. Certainly not every individual: but at the corrupted core – all Western Intelligence agencies serve a cause that transcends the national interest. National security is a line they feed us: the UK as a whole benefits little from our involvement in Syria, and less still, from being embroiled in a Cold War with Russia on the grounds of national defence. It’s all a con!

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

The Zionist elite support other states and their elites only in so far as they serve Israel’s interests, or rather the interests of the Israeli and Diaspora elites. These interests are not those of much of Jewry, or, of course, of any goyim but the collaborative type like May, Micron, Cheney et al. The Zionist elite most certainly do possess global ambitions rooted in Talmudic doctrine.

Admin

Stop this monomania about “joory”. It’s sub-intelligent racism and not welcome here.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

Please don’t misrepresent me. I have stated over and over again that the culprits are the Zionist elites in Israel and the Diaspora, NOT Jews as a whole. Many Jews oppose the nefarious activities of the Zionist elites, and many others are passive, just like all other communities. But in the matter of 9/11 proposing that the Zionists not be mentioned is quite bizarre. In my comments immediately above (the last seven or eight) there are eight ‘Zionists’ and one ‘Jewry’ and that was in the context of asserting that not all Jews support Zionist crimes or benefit from them.

Admin

Didn’t suggest you shouldn’t “mention” anybody. Check back. Suggested you should stop obsessively littering your posts with queasy refs to “goyim”, “Jewry”, etc
Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews. We all know that. You know that. Now let it go.

Ross Hendry

Bollyn is very reliable on 9/11, in my view.

mog
mog

@bevin
I am sad to see you write that.
I have not seen anyone here claiming Corbyn to be an MI6 agent, and it reads as inflationary misrepresentation to say that people have.
The Labour bureaucracy is simply overpowered/ outmaneuvered by a very well organised, well connected and well resourced psywar operation, – one that has at least some links to Israel and zionist sympathies.
Too many on the Corbyn Left cannot engage with this for fear of being branded racist.
Do you refute the accusation of Corbyn’s appeasement?
Evidence for Mossad involvement in 9/11 ?
There is a heap of evidence, arguably no conclusive evidence, but not far off:
‘First, Bergen, NJ residents saw five people on a white van filming the attacks and visibly celebrating. They had set up their cameras before the first plane hit. Police arrested them. All were Israelis (now referred to as the “dancing Israelis”). Bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives, although officers were unable to find anything. The FBI seized the van for further testing. All five were later released at the instigation of Israeli & American Jewish leaders, some in the US Government. Details are still classified. This incident quickly disappeared from the mainstream media, following a brief mention in the New York Times three days after the attacks, that was not followed up.
A second van was stopped on the approaches to the George Washington Bridge. As CBS’s Dan Rather said in his live report: “Two suspects are in FBI custody after a truckload of explosives were discovered around the George Washington Bridge. That bridge links New York to New Jersey over the Hudson River. Whether the discovery of those explosives had anything to do with other events today is unclear, but the FBI, has two suspects in hand, said the truckload of explosives, enough explosives were in the truck to do great damage to the George Washington Bridge…“ Those suspects –also Israelis — and the incident then seem to have disappeared from the public record and mainstream media “examinations” <sic.> of 9/11, just like discussions of the first van, the secondary explosions at ground level within WTC-1 and WTC-2, and the precipitous collapse into its own footprint of WTC-7.’

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28438.htm
I think that Kevin Ryan has done some of the best work in trying to identify legitimate suspects for 9/11, and proposes a ‘private intelligence network’ which spans several countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia, UAE …).
I think there is a strong case made by Sabrosky and others that ‘The Big Wedding’
‘…wedded Neocon philosophy with 500 years of Atlanticism’.
I keep banging the drum that seeks to sound out the need for the Left to come to terms with this history. I contend that they will not ‘get anywhere’ in the 21st century unless or until they do.

Admin

Does this network include the US/UK or any NATO countries?

mog
mog

@Admin
Does this network include the US/UK or any NATO countries?
Yes.

rogermorris

absolutely agreed. the more nuanced reality is where Karl ROVE delivered us..(“We are empire now…we create new realities..”) which is why the adults in Moscow have so far deflected these egregious false flags generated by the MI6 Britprop WhiteHelmets®.con atrocity troupe.
Because they KNOW whats going on.
Thierry Meysson wrote one of the very first books on false flag 911, the event beginning WW3 (911. The big LIE) He is a voice highly regarded. The ugly intentions of the anglozionist hegamon, loudly expressed as they slapped the Patriot Act into homeland ‘Law’ – to smash the middle East by all and any means (Strategy of Tension [NATO:GLADIO] YINON and ‘Full Spectrum Dominance’ methods/R2P, P2OG, IIO) ushered in on the LIE of 911 casus belli; was not lost on Russian and Chinese intelligence ; nor on anyone listening.