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Open Thread – Russian Plane Brought Down in Syria

Stock image – Russian IL-20 surveillance plane.

Last night, a Russian IL-20 military surveillance plane went missing over Syria, presumably shot down. Fifteen Russian personnel are presumed dead. This took place during an (illegal) attack by Israeli F-16 jets. At the same time, RT reported that Russia had detected missile launches from a French frigate in the Mediterranean.

This morning, Russia has formally complained to Israel – claiming the Israeli military gave less than 1 minute of warning, and then used the Russian plane as cover, causing the Syrian air defenses to bring down the friendly plane.

Speculation was rampant last night, with initial reports that Russia was blaming France for shooting down their plane. The story it was friendly fire from Syrian defenses originally came from the US, and was initially rejected, Sputnik calling it “fake news”. Although Russia has now officially “confirmed” that sequence of events.

Despite the Russian confirmation, some are saying that the now “official” course of events – that the Russian plane was brought down by friendly fire from Syrian ground defenses – is impossible because they unified their defenses. With many putting a different narrative together:

The questions raised:

  • Who really did shoot down this plane? Was it an accident or did France and/or Israel attack?
  • If France are attacking Russia/Syria what prompted this? What do they have to gain?
  • Is it possible for Syria to “accidentally” bring down an allied plane? Don’t they have IFFs?
  • Are Russia publicly accepting a false narrative to avoid having to retaliate?
  • Will Russia retaliate against Israel? They have claimed that right already.
  • What will they expect to extract as a quid pro quo on this issue?
  • How will the media report this? Will they call it a “near miss”? That’s surely what it was.
  • Do they even understand how close we’re coming to global war, whenever a NATO country operates in Syria?
  • How long can we rely on Russian common sense to avoid WWIII?

Kit Knightly is co-editor of OffGuardian. The Guardian banned him from commenting. Twice. He used to write for fun, but now he's forced to out of a near-permanent sense of outrage.

Filed under: conflict zones, discussion threads, featured, latest, Russia, Syria

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Kit Knightly is co-editor of OffGuardian. The Guardian banned him from commenting. Twice. He used to write for fun, but now he's forced to out of a near-permanent sense of outrage.

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vexarb

“Vanessa Beeley, broadcasting direct from Syria, with the truth on the ground and her insight on these events.”

https://youtu.be/UA651DWgDi8

John Gilberts
John Gilberts

Helmer’s latest is worth a read:

Putin’s Forfeit – From Strategic Mistake to Strategic Defeat in 24 Hours

http://johnhelmer.net/putins-forfeit-from-strategic-mistake-to-strategic-defeat-in-24-hours

Big B
Big B

There’s a bigger picture. I would liken focusing on personalities to visiting Bedlam in the 19th century. What we are looking at, in the behaviour of the inmates, is to discern the least mad and better behaved: then declaring them sane …only, it is a relativistic judgement, taken collectively they all remain mad. And now they are running the asylum.

VVP can act no differently within the internationally dominant cultural hegemony of growth and accumulation: nor can anyone else. But this is no substitute for sanity, or even humanity. Sanity and humanity create their own values of peace that exposes the insanity.

The systemic overview is that the system itself is a ponerological processed insanity. We cannot culturally produce differing results from within the same value system of processed evil; we need a value system of peace …where peace is not just the absence of conflict, temporarily attained by accepting the limited freedoms within the common cultural system.

Systemically produced values reproduce the same system. For a new system, we need genuinely differing values, not mere mirror-capitalist fairground reflections. On the way to peace, peace is the way.

Peace is not the absence of war, peace is the absence for the need for war …the motivations for which are the artificial wants, needs and desires: which are themselves the industrialised fabrications of the pro-conflict machine-age system. The proliferation of militarism, nationalism, and imperialism; driven by the growth vectors of capitalist accumulation can never produce peace. Capitalism is inherently unstable, prone to crisis, riven with contradiction …and paradoxically thrives because of it That paradoxical thriving is in the shadow of the mushroom cloud: the seeming absence of Holocaust should not be mistaken as analogous to peace. The thriving is itself inherently conflictive and inevitably fatally contradictory. Inner conflict is the innate logic of the system.

Thus, the capitalist system of aggressive competitive hierarchical advantage is war. Dominance over one is dominance over all. A very short critical appraisal of the recent events in Syria, as to whether they are promoting of peace, universal humanity, or of exceptionalist nationalist statist self-interest should reveal the collective systemic insanity of ALL involved?

What we have witnessed is not the triumph of statesmanship, diplomacy, a superior ethic, or a charismatic leader (all capitalist lies) in the avoidance of war …merely a postponement of the inevitability of war, even if ‘accidentally’ triggered the next time. Or the next. The teleology of the current global system can only ever produce war: where the micro-war of aggressive competitive advantage must inevitably become the macro-war. The capitalist system is modeled on war, and its players are warriors. The system breeds its own conflict and dissatisfaction to reproduce itself. Peace is foreign to the pro-conflict systemic Them. Them that lead the uncritical Us unto Hell.

“We do not lack communication. On the contrary, we have too much of it ….We lack resistance to the present” . Deleuze and Guattari.

There is no profit in peace: ergo – the security and universal interests of all, equitably met, can only ever be cooperatively produced by the collective autonomy of the peaceful – without the dominant advantage gained through status or profit. Profit is war.

End capitalism; end war.

comite espartaco

Great news…!!! It seems that President Putin is shitting on your left innocence once again…!!!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6183887/Putin-says-EUs-generous-social-benefits-blame-migrant-crisis.html

wardropper

In today’s Icelandic news, NATO exercises are planned in Norway and Iceland during October and November. This at a time when the country’s Prime Minister is the leader of the “Left/Green” party, which has a policy objective of leaving NATO, of which membership has been a sore point with Icelanders for many decades, ever since the initial rioting which greeted the decision of some of the country’s “representatives” to join.
Admittedly the current government consists of a very uncomfortable coalition with Conservatives and (Backward) Progressives, but the calm delivery of this news by the state broadcasting service, along with a token objection on a badly-recorded soundtrack by a politician who doesn’t think we should be practising killing people in the 21st Century, makes it pretty clear that nothing at all will be done.
I’ll stay awake though. You never know: Perhaps there will be a large mass protest sometime soon…? Such things have happened, even if the media do tend to turn up half an hour ahead of the protest and record 35 early birds – especially the crazy guy with green hair – then leave just before 10,000 protesters turn up in front of Iceland’s Parliament… They also like to show footage of the usual 12 drunks doing damage AFTER the protest was long over…

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

Regardless of whether Russia is lying about Syria accidentally shooting down the Il 20 in order to avoid having to grow the intestinal fortitude to retaliate against the zionazi pseudostate – and I’m convinced it is – the zionazis cannot claim innocence. They are in the position of bank robbers who took a hostage to use as a human shield, who cannot claim innocence if the hostage is subsequently killed by police fire directed at them. Again, Putin’s pusillanimous response is as harmful as a police commander’s in that situation who absolves the bank robbers of all blame, including for the bank robbery itself.

Admin
Admin
Admin

What do you think Putin should have done?

Your reply needs to acknowledge the following:

1) the neocon hardline and Israel are currently trying to manufacture an excuse for a massive attack on Syria, aimed at widening the war.

2) the Israeli action was aimed at provoking a military response from Russia/Syria that could be used as such an excuse.

3) a widened war would play into western hands and destroy Russia’s current ascendancy

What action should Russia take that would punish Israel but avoid giving the neocon hardliners exactly what they wanted?

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

Are you asking me?

What should Putin have done?

Immediately call Nazinyahu and tell him that all zionazi bombing of Syria will permabperma cease, and any attempt to bomb Syria again will be countered by Russian defences including those famous S400s that Russia is so terrified of actually using while trying to sell them around the globe.
Immediately supply Syria with S400s, assuming these missiles actually can work (from Russia’s inexplicable refusal to use them I do not believe that they can).
Stop taking slaps on the face and pretending that it’s “restraint” to not retaliate.

What “ascendancy” are you babbling about? America has illegal bases in Syria and no intention of leaving,Turkey has all but annexed Idlib, Syria, supposedly Russia’s ally, is being bombed with impunity by its zionist enemy with full Russian compliance, any day now Poroshenko, with full NATO aid, is going to invade the Donbass republics, and do you imagine the rest of the world isn’t noticing that Russia treats its alleged allies as chess pawns?

If Putin does not take a stand now, and this is his last chance, then that war he’s allegedly avoiding becomes an inevitability.

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

*permanently

Admin
Admin
Admin

Try to remain calm.

I notice you don’t advocate that Russia should have immediately retaliated militarily. All the things you do advocate (well, most) – quite rationally – would not have shown any results as yet, so we don’t know they haven’t been done, do we?

But, to repeat, you don’t defeat a man who is trying to lure you into a fight by punching him in the face. Intelligence is underrated by the non-intelligent. Subtlety is unappreciated by the crass. The Russian govt’s actions tend to be both subtle and intelligent – whether you approve of them or not, and so can go unappreciated by many on all sides of the debate.

As to ascendancy – Syria was intended to be a new Libya by now. That this has been avoided, that the various terrorists are in retreat, that the country remains largely functional, and all without direct confrontation between east and west (so far), is an achievement anyone with any intelligence should recognise, and which the Russia government has every right to be proud of.

Forgive me, but people have been saying variants of “if Putin doesn’t DO SOMETHING HUGE right now he’s going to burn” for at least the last four years, and they are still saying it, despite the fact he hasn’t burned (and neither have we), and, if their sage advice had been followed, we might all be cinders on a dead and cindered planet right now.

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

The only reason it hasn’t come to that yet is that the ground was not prepared fully before. Russia is slowly being pushed back to the ropes, the average Western citizen is being conditioned to racially hate Russians (did you read Nikki Haley’s comment today that Russians are culturally conditioned to lie and cheat?) and the consent is being steadily manufactured. As I said in my original comment, by showing “restraint” and not that he has teeth, Putin is encouraging his country’s enemies. Personally, I don’t give a damn about what he does about people he doesn’t like, but he’s not a private citizen; he is in control of Russia, for good or ill. Most of my Russian friends, all of the far left variety, despise him, incidentally, but that’s neither here nor there. The simple fact is that if Russia is to avoid a big war it has to actively deter one, not act like someone attempting to disarm an armed drunk by logical words and sweet reason. That is not going to work.

Paul X
Paul X

Nobody, least of all Russians, would thank Putin for sparking off a NATO-Russia war when the facts of Monday evening are unanalysed. Meanwhile the Turkish Agreement gives them a month to clear the buffer zone of jihadis. It’s another chip off the Idlip Block with the pressure on the Turks who must be thinking twice about what they are doing in such an expensive dangerous strategy in taking responsibility for such a large section of Hell on Earth.

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

Let me respond with an extract from something I wrote on another site:

Putin’s “restraint” is emboldening Russia’s enemies, and allowing them to think that they can get away with anything. And they are right. At what point will Putin stop showing “restraint”? When Poroshenko, with NATO help, destroys the Donbass republics? When NATO bombs Russian forces in Kaliningrad to “protect the Baltic republics from invasion”? (Don’t for a millisecond imagine they won’t if they think they can get away with it.) When NATO invades Russia itself? When does “avoiding WWIII” and “showing statesmanship” turn into abject surrender?

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

And as for Erdogan, here’s what a parody account on Twitter has to say; it so perfectly encapsulates my thinking that I don’t have to add a word to it.

“Today Abu #Erdogan, with Abu #Putin blessing, responsible for protectioning #Idlib and longer we remain there longer Abu Erdogan continue to occupy and loot Idlib. Why he will want us gone? This make sense to you?”

FS
FS

“Most of my Russian friends, all of the far left variety, despise (Putin)”

You need to do something about the sort of company you keep. The Russians I know who despise Putin share one or more of the following characteristics:

They’re not very intelligent.
They’re over-exposed to western media, and take regular, ill-advised gulps of its poisonous Kool-Aid, quite unaware of what they’re drinking.
They’re utterly clueless about geopolitics in general, and have no interest in changing this situation.
They’re jewish, and do not consider themselves Russian, having acquired their sense of reality from elsewhere.

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

Apparently all the Russians you know are the liberal elite of Moscow. You need to broaden your acquaintance to include Russian people living on 15000 roubles a month in Pushkin or Nizhny Novgorod, Volgograd or Vladivostok. But that would ruin your comfortable worldview, so it’s certain you won’t try it.

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

So, the Russian Ministry of Defence is saying the exact opposite of the statement by the zionazi stooge Putin, who pretended the shooting down of the Il 20 was a “tragic accident”. This could not have been done without effectively neutralising Putin, who is still officially the commander in chief of the Russian armed forces. The soft coup I predicted may have taken place, and Putin compelled to fall into line. Let’s see if the zionazis now face real pain, such as their war criminals being shot out of the air. If they do, we’ll know that the Putin era is over.

https://www.rt.com/news/439151-russia-israel-il-20-negligence/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Paul X
Paul X

If the Russians got a cruise missile down the funnel of the French frigate Auvegne (assuming there is a funnel) what do you think NATO would do? Would they shrug and say it serves Macron right or would they take off the safety locks and blast Russia from every direction in order to protect their partner who had been so ‘wrongly’ attacked? Haven’t they been waiting for the chance for years? Aren’t they already loaded up expecting the ‘chemical weapons’ shout to go up this very week? It would be vey foolish of Russia to take the bait of these provocations and it makes for uneasy reading when Westerners, sitting comfortably in safety, complain that Russians aren’t prepared to die for us in large enough numbers to keep them safe. You first guy!

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

So, at what point does Russia say, “all right, you’ve attacked us enough and we have to strike back?” When Poroshenko invades and destroys the Donbass republics? When the zionazis and France bomb Hmeimin airbase? When America invades Syria from al Tanf and Jordan? When Russian teritory itself is attacked? At what point does Russia say that it’s been provoked enough?

Don’t be ridiculous. Russia isn’t showing good sense and restraint; it’s displaying appalling weakness, and don’t imagine the enemy won’t take advantage of it.

Rose
Rose

You do not win arguments by using words such as ‘zionazi’, you just turn readers off from bothering to read what you have to say.

manfromatlan

Once I was a liberal who might have agreed with you, Rose, but now I abhor Zionists who seek to curtail free speech. And you might find a lot more people agree with that sentiment now, as they see this as just another attempt to stifle moral condemnation of “that shitty little country in the M.E.”

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

I couldn’t care less about people who can’t handle accurate descriptive words.

Paul X
Paul X

When provoked so blatantly you need to look to see what the guy is hiding behind his back. In this case the West had built up their forces for a full scale attack on Syria as soon as the White Helmets released their video of choking children filmed a week or so ago. Putin disappointed them by coming to an agreement with Turkey that means the jihadis are further isolated and pushed into possible conflict with radicals. The time scales of the agreement are vague/unknown but it’s unlikely we will see a Jihadi Caliphate set up under Turkish protection. Like the Syrians it’s the crazy foreign fighters that alarm the Turks, the Chinese especially of whom there are 6000 heavily armed in the South. Turkey is keen to see the extremists pushed South making it difficult for them to enter Turkey. Putin’s reaction is far more sensible than firing the gun for a major conflict which Russia is most unlikely to win. Russia is still on track to squeeze the jihadis into smaller and smaller areas where they might be eliminated. It might make liberals happy to see Russia sacrifice herself a la 1941 but it’s not going to help anybody except their enemies. You can’t help thinking Putin knows exactly what he’s doing.

wardropper

Putin certainly knows what he is doing. The problem is that Washington will only tolerate being outsmarted to a limited extent, after which it will turn to the “lash out wildly” option.
As to the question of who might “fire the gun for a major conflict”, it really doesn’t matter who does that.
If it happens, we all lose.

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

“Full scale attack on Syria”…….which would never have happened if Putin had not tolerated and allowed Zionistani bombing of Syria almost on a daily basis, if he had said clearly that any attack on Syria would be treated as a declaration of war on Russia. Can anyone be stipst enough to imagine that even the warmongers of Wall Street don’t know that in a nuclear war their stock options and bank accounts, not to speak of themselves, would go up in smoke? They would be very happy with a non nuclear war with Russia, and they’re doing all they can to strengthen their position until they can get their wish. The more “restraint” Putin displays the more encouraged they get.

Apart from which, what do you think the morale of Russia’s armed forces is like this morning when they know they can be killed with impunity by their president’s zionazi bosom buddy, but they’re not allowed to shoot back?

Admin
Admin
Admin

There can never be a non-nuclear war between the US and Russia. Every strategist worth anything knows this. It’s the belief – created by the PNAC neocons – that this isn’t true that drives the hardcore nuts in Washington and London and elsewhere.

This is the problem. They are delusional and believe they can fight a limited war with Russia. Those who know they are wrong, and that any such war would go nuclear very very fast are stuck in a profound dilemma. – How to defend oneself and one’s interests while avoiding the conflict the lunatics want, which will destroy life on earth?

Answers on a post card please for anyone who thinks they can do better than the current Russian govt is doing.

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

Also, I’ve lived in Russia, and I can assure you that a huge number of Russians don’t think Putin knows what he’s doing. And I’m not talking about the Navalny traitors, I’m talking about actual nationalist Russian people, who say Putin is owned by the capitalists and do what they tell him to do. Just because he mitigated some of the worst of Yeltsinite capitalism and locked up a few oligarchs doesn’t make him any less a tool of rapacious capitalism.

Paul X
Paul X

It is interesting that while the West always describes the fraudster as Putin’s main rival the polls showed him on 4% before the last election. Almost religiously they avoided saying that in truth the Communist Party was his real opposition on 22%. Maybe the Ameticans will pay for another colour uprising, a Red one?

vexarb

@Paul. Agreed. With every step of the CW $cam exposed by Russian / Syrian surveillance and St.Theresa’s inept handling of the Novijoke, NATZO was all dressed up and nowhere to go. Without CW Casus Belli, Uncle $cam could not muster public opinion for a heavy engagement of Lootenant Pinkerton and the White Fleet. So the burden of representing “the irresistible armed might” of NATZO fell on the RAF in Akrotiri, the lone French carrier and the IAF — all of whom were covered by Russian security network (as I pointed out on a previous thread with the aid of a map from Bundy). So these 3 stooges came up with a really smart Wiley Coyote scheme: all fire together, so a Russian plane is down and you cannot say who done it.

Result: the IAF is grounded for fear of retaliation; France and Britain have given their best shot — one Russian plane down in a sneak attack by 3 stooges; and The Man from Uncle is nowhere to be seen.

C’est magnifique! mais c’est pas la guerre.

jiri
jiri

Great analogy. Just needs a few minor tweaks:

The robber is the bank manager’s wife’s cousin and has the tacit approval of the bank manager to rob the bank because, you know, banks’ manager’s wife’s cousins have their needs.

The bank manager has told the robber that he will get the bank’s security to stand down but he cannot be responsible if a customer or staff has a gun or penknife to defend themselves.

The robber has done this successfully for more than 200 times in the last 18 months.

Just this once, things don’t go as planned and the Bank manager’s Rolls Royce gets burnt to the ground.

The bank manager is furious and tells his wife’s cousin that it is all his fault and that from now on he is only allowed to rob the bank with the explicit knowledge and approval of the bank manager otherwise the bank’s security will gun him down.

If I were the banks manager’s wife’s cousin I would be furious.

Wouldn’t you?

After all, I have a right to maintain my lifestyle and it isn’t cheap.

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

Excellent. You’re right of course.

vexarb

Tozak BTL Saker Vineyard on September 18, 2018 · at 11:34 pm EST/EDT

“a large-scale intervention of the US/Sioniste empire was planned, following a false flag orchestrated by the jiadists in Idlib. That’s where the trap was. The timing of this Western attack was perfect to further support Trump’s internal politics as the mid-term elections approached.
Buying some time right now is very opportune.

In the agreement with Erdogan there is an important point.
An additional ‘demilitarized area’ with 15-25 kilometer depth will be created and patrolled by Turkish and Russian forces. This area will allow transports on the M5 highway. It is of high value for Syria and its economy. It was one of the Syrian government’s important goals to regain access to this highway. Now it’s done… without a fight!
The Russian army also happens to have access to 15/20 kilometres inside Idlib territory… and this too, without having to fight!

The Idlib mousetrap is gradually shrinking…

Moreover (according to the well informed Elihah J. Magnier : “what was not announced officially is Turkey’s guarantee that no chemical attack will be staged in Idlib to “provoke” the long-heralded US-EU bombing of Syria.”

So once again, the Russian strategy has undermined a very vicious plan, orchestrated by the US Zionist empire. which is why Israel is not very happy.”

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

And anyone should trust Erdogan, who changes his position faster than Trump tweets, because……….?

ragheadthefiendlyterrorist

Serious question:

How long will the Russian people and the Russian military continue to tolerate Putin’s absurd soft approach towards Amerikastani and ZioNATO aggression? How long until the military decides enough is enough, that it will no longer tolerate its soldiers and airmen being sacrificed at the altar of Putin still pretending that he’s going to someday improve relations with the West? Each time Russia shows “restraint” by absorbing a slap in the face, its enemies get encouraged and slap it again. What happens when the Ukranazi regime inevitably invades Donbass? Will Putin show the same “restraint” then? How long will the Russian people and the Russian military allow this?

If you think I’m saying that there will be a coup, or a “soft coup” (foreign policy taken out of Putin’s hands) in Russia if things go on like this, yes, that’s what I am saying. Whether that is desirable or not is a question for the Russian people to decide.

To anyone who says that Putin’s “restraint” is better than nuclear war, here are the facts:

At the rate Putin is going he’s going to be left with no option but a nuclear war.

There’s an old Indian fable about a snake which terrorised people in a village. It lived in a cave in a hill near the village and everyone was terrified to come anywhere near the hill because it would bite and kill them.

Then one day a great sage who happened to be passing saw the snake, and, instead of being frightened, he told it about kindness and compassion to everyone. Overcome with remorse for its past actions, the snake promised that it would never bite anyone again. Soon afterwards, some people passing at a distance from the hill saw the snake outside its cave and instead of it attacking them it just bent its head in submission and friendship. Seeing this the men took courage, grabbed sticks and stones, and beat the snake, leaving it for dead.

The old sage returned that way shortly after, and, finding the poor snake near death, nursed it back to health. When it was recovered, he asked it what had happened.

“You told me not to bite anyone,” the snake responded. “So I approached the men in friendship, and this is what they did to me.”

“Oh stupid snake,” the sage replied, “I told you not to bite people. I never told you not to hiss and frighten them away!”

wardropper

There’s a slightly different version of that snake story: This snake also lived in a cave in a hill near a village and everyone was terrified to come anywhere near the hill because it would bite and kill them. The sage similarly appealed to the snake’s “conscience”, pointing out the injustice of killing people just because one doesn’t like them, or disagrees with them, but after some time he noticed that the snake was still biting people.
The sage challenged the snake to explain why he was doing this, and the snake responded as in your story, with the difference that the snake worked out for itself that it didn’t need to poison people to death, but rather just let them know that it had teeth.

TFS
TFS

I’m intrigued as to why the alternative press on mass has been beating around the bush on issues like these.

The UN and ICC needs to be constantly hounded daily by the alternative press until it does its job.

wardropper

The alternative press are not yet too big to ignore.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee

I would really like to know more about this mysterious, all-powerful 5th column that Saker conjures up whenever. Putin pulls out of a hard tackle (football analogy). What is the extent of its power? Where is it situated? Can it be identified? And why has it been hitherto impossible to root it out?

It seems that every time Putin pulls out of reacting to a gross provocation by the AZ empire (a tactic which ensures that the next provocation will be even greater) the 5th column has successfully sabotages his intentions to assert Russian interests as he should be doing.

Nothing Putin can do according to the Saker, his hands are tied, it’s the dreaded 5 column at work. Well something must be done. He has dealt with Khordokovsky, Kasparov, Pussy Riot, the Yeltsin gang, Berezovsky, Navalny pretty effectively in the past, so why does he let this vipers nest of surrender monkeys and traitors determine what Russia can do to defend its interests properly and stand up to the encroachment and pervasiveness of this 5th Column.

Undoubtedly Putin did a sterling job in pulling Russia out of the mess left by the Yeltsin gang in the early 21st century, but that time is gone. The new situation calls for a harder line both internally and externally, and I am not sure that Putin is the ideal person to clean the Augean stables of this 5th Column, nor has he shown any significant actions in this direction.

Admin

Russia wants peace and stability in the ME for its own reasons. Israel and the neocon hardcore in Washington/London want continued escalating war – for their own reasons. This is what they hope to achieve by these provocations. A direct military response from Russia is exactly what they wanted.

A lot of people seem smitten with hysteria, naivety and short term memory loss over this issue. Let’s recall:

1) the Syrian war is virtually won for Syria, which is why the provocations are occurring

2) you don’t deter crazy people who want you to attack them – by attacking them!

3) one wrong move out there could precipitate a global war that would quickly go nuclear. The armchair warriors might want to reflect that, unless they want their armchairs to be newly irradiated frontline positions, there’s something to be said ffor a nuanced response

Paul X
Paul X

A provocation indeed! A missile fired from the Caspian Sea might sink the Auvergne with the loss of maybe hundreds of French sailors lives. . And the reaction?!
Russia’s other motive in being in Syria is to eliminate Russian jihadi groups rather than let them slip back into Russia to create mayhem. Turkey would love to assist them on their journey back to the mountains and the Saudis will fund them.

jiri
jiri

Russia has no objection to taking the jihadist out of Idlib and into Turkey if that is what Turkey wants.

manfromatlan

The “two factions of the deep state in the US fighting with each other” need to step up their game?

jiri
jiri

You need to read the Saker more thoroughly to understand the Russian fifth column.

It’s been there since the days of Peter the Great.

The Catholic church,Orthodox church are also part of it.

A veritable Game of Thrones spanning 1000 years.

Enjoy.

vexarb

Canthama BTL SyrPer:

“No I do not think Russia will attempt any stronger response, nor it is needed.

Russia will react and respond to any threat asymmetrically, this is how Russia has worked in the past and will continue to do so. Russia will defuse any attempt by NATO/Israel to provoke a large scale war in Syria, this is the base of all what Russia does in Syria and they will continue to do so.

There are a lot of people that tend to push the narrative that no Russia’s response is an indication of weakness and that NATO/Israel will see it as their advantage to raise the bar and revert the progress made in Syria, I can guarantee this is not correct and it is indeed naive, Syria is still a powerful State, with military resources not known by many (not against terrorists and guerrilla warfare but against large scale war), so thus Russia and Iran as well.

The provocation was clear to place Russia, Syria and Iran at odds, and at the bigger picture Israeli’s coward act was aimed to create issues with Iran, once more. Recall the Bavar 313 delivery at Damascus that was aimed by the IDF ? They seemed to have hit near the plane (after the cargo was unloaded) and debris hit the cargo plane and caused a some damage. Israel blames Russia for allowing Iran to deliver high tech AA and it the downing of the IL 20 could be a Israeli way to punish Russia, I do not buy the version it was an accident, this event was deliberate, planned and executed by the minute by many countries…from NATO and Israel.

Iran will continue to ship bavar 313 to Syria, this is key for testing it in live attacks against IAF, Iran needs this very badly to test this sophisticated AA, and soon, we will see it being used, and this time maybe Russia will be also helping Syrian and Iran to make this happen, since one key element is how to integrate bavar 313 to all SyAAD-Russia AA inside Syria. This could be the asymmetrical response I am talking about.

We haven’t seen China reaction in all the above, this is a “wild card” that could play at the right time and place. … We will see more China presence the ME; every quarter of every year, China will step up its presence, but for while it is the wild card.

Paul X
Paul X

I thought there were already Chinese Special Forces with the Russians? They are there to make sure the 6000 or so Chinese jihadis, reputed to be the most extreme of all such groups, are eliminated and don’t return home – like a sensible power would rather than protect and nourish them like the West does. They currently occupy a town in Southern Idlip. They aren’t very popular with local Syrians by all accounts. The West prefers stories about a million Chinese Muslims in re-education camps without any attention given to the sheer brutality of the ‘rebels’. It’s important to eliminate them where they are rather than let them slip into Turkey and then, like the Russian jihadis return home for a Beslan style siege or two. If Europe is so concerned about Chinese jihadis perhaps they could offer them sanctuary?

Jonny
Jonny

Yep, I’m sure Teresa the appeaser would love them here. Think of the cultural enrichment they would bring. Free housing, and free financial assistance and handouts at a rate much higher than uk citizens get. What could possibly go wrong. Sad thing is I’m sure it will actually happen!

Paul X
Paul X

No I don’t see even the British ones being returned to the UK. It will either be Cuba, courtesy of the Americans, or death on the battlefield. The two notorious Brits captured months ago are still held in makeshift cells by a Kurdish militia group who captured them. Despite generous payments the Kurdish group would prefer somebody to lay claim to them; they’ve threatened to release them if a decision isn’t made soon. One can appreciate their anxiety holding such infamous IS prisoners. There ought to be efforts made to work out a policy for captured jihadis. The best strategy for Syrian militants is to merge back into Syrian society and wage a guerrilla war against Assad using suicide bombers. But the foreign fighters have no where to hide unless Turkey organises a rat run back to Russia and China.

白矛

Unfortunately what has happened to Iraq, Libya, Syria, across Africa, South America, etc etc, is now happening to Myanmar. See: https://21stcenturywire.com/tag/myanmar/ and https://21stcenturywire.com/2017/10/08/myanmar-confrontation-china-political-islam/ Power distribution games..

白矛

It’s a complex web.. one has to bear this in mind.. the inter-relationships.. the connections.. Putin for example has to tread the razor edge and fight with one hand tied behind his back due to the Zionist influence atop the Russian hierarchy….

Matt
Matt

S-200 uses the SAHR guidance system. The radar signal is fairly wide, and if multiple objects fall within the signal, the one with the largest cross-section will be targeted. The Russian IL is much larger than the American F-16. Larger missiles like the 200’s 5V21 also tend to hit from above (they come down in a parabolic arc after the motors burned out). So if the F-16’s stayed a little behind and below the IL they’d basically guarantee the IL get’s killed.

As “Partisangirl” claims, but does not properly understand, Russia integrated Syrian AD into their network some time ago. The purpose of such a integration was to avoid similar accidents.

One problem: That was only for the newer stuff.

A Pantsir, for example, can be told where targets are and what to shoot at by a larger system (they work in a pyramid hierarchy). S-200s are older than h*ll though. It’s basically a dumb system from the 60’s. (even dumber than a BUK)
What it’ll do is spot a target, fire the missile and then when the missile “thinks” it’s in the right area (the kill box), it’s seeker head goes active (it’s a semi active seeker). It starts looking for radar ‘reflections’ and then homes in on the biggest one it can see. It doesn’t actually know what it’s looking at and doesn’t care. Just goes for the shiniest thing it can detect.

My favourite part is how all these lies are held up as if they merit discussion and as if they deserve to be given equal treatment with what actually happened. It’s like holding a “discussion” as to whether or not Aliens rule the Earth.

Matt
Matt

As an aside: my personal opinion is that the Israel were hiding behind IL-20, but never intended harm to it. They merely were shielding themselves from Syrian AD and did not expect Syrians to actually fire at the IL-20. The Syrians most likely were not paying proper attention.

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

My personal opinion is that you are a hasbara disinformer.

Matt
Matt

This is the 2nd or 3rd time that you’ve accused me of being “hasbara”. Please stop following me around and harassing me. I have absolutely no relation to Israel or Judaism whatsoever.

A paranoid poster is following me around and accusing me of being an Israeli cyberarmy agent… Wonderful.

Mods, please help me out here. I know my opinions are unpopular here, but I don’t deserve this.

grandstand
grandstand

I tend to agree with you, on the whole, Mulga, about issues to do with Israel, though perhaps not so stridently. But on this occasion I think Matt is honestly telling things how he sees it.

On the other hand, one should ask why Israel is arbitrarily attacking targets in a sovereign country that is not threatening it. Of course, the answer is that this is what Israel does with impunity – witness USS Liberty among many others. On this occasion, it appears, from what I have read, that Israel was targeting the delivery of Iranian S300 copies to Syria – that is weapons to defend from this kind of attack in future. In reality, far from attacking Israel, Syria has even done nothing about recovering territory lost to Israel in 1967, though in international law Israel – that Israel signed up to – it should be given back to Syria. A few days ago, Israel attacked Damascus airport during an international fair with many visitors and potential for massive loss of life. It seems clear that Israel is trying (probably with US approval) to provoke a response.

Putin always keeps his eye on the long term view but it is time for him to put a stop to this activity if he is to maintain credibility with his allies and his voters. This attack will serve to weaken Putin’s hitherto Israel friendly stance unless he wants to lose support in Russia. Putin is the best friend Israel has in Russia. It seems that Russian military is saying that there will be a response – much stronger than Putin.

grandstand
grandstand

On the other hand – re my previous comment, Matt, IAF was clearly using the Russian ELINT plane as cover. It is tantamount to using civilians as human shields. Though the crew were Russian military, they were not involved in the action, apparently, and Israel had agreed not to target Russian assets in Syria. One cannot absolve Israel on this and the Russian military know it. They will be looking to Putin to permit a response.

Admin

Not appropriate MM. Please don’t insult commenters for expressing an opinion.

Jen
Jen

Then you surely would not object if Russia were to ask Israel to hand over the pilots involved so they can explain in a Russian military court or a similar setting their actions and the thinking and expectations that motivated them to hide their jets in the Ilyushin transport plane’s radar shadow.

Matt
Matt

No country would ever humiliate itself by handing over its own pilots who were acting on orders from the top brass. Not to mention the fact that Russia has no jurisdiction over these Israeli pilots.

Jen
Jen

If an investigation were to take place and witnesses were called, surely Israel would be required to send over the pilots even if they were acting on orders. If Israel does not, then it would be acting against its own interests.

Tom
Tom

I seem to recall the excuse that “I was just following orders” didn’t ass mustard at Nuremburg Nov 1945.

Yarkob
Yarkob

israel is breaking international law (again) its pilots, and their commanders and any FAO they use, are criminals. plain and simple

jiri
jiri

The Israeli top brass already went to Moscow to explain.

jiri
jiri

Like in a Hollywood movie where the bad guy threatens to harm the pretty girl if everyone does not do as they say?

jdseanjd

Book: Our Occulted History Do The Global Elite Conceal Ancient Aliens?
By award winning journalist Jim Marrs.
Enjoy, I did.
Occulted is in the sense of deliberately hidden, no ghosts or ghoulies.

John Doran.

jdseanjd

This was in reply to Matt’s comment above about aliens ruling the Earth.

John Doran.

BigMamma
BigMamma

I just keep on wondering about the relationship behind the scenes, between Russia, Israel, the USA, Uk and France (and the rest)…. Are they not all playing the game together…. Pretending to be enemies, and keeping the masses divided so they can all retain their own versions of authoritarian power..?

Just a thought

Guest Columnist
Guest Columnist

Yes, there is a large element of theatre at play in this conflict. What many people don’t want to accept is that they have no way of knowing what the entire truth is. All the information about situations and events comes from partisan organizations with vested interests. Expecting the side one personally favours to present objective truths is wishful thinking at best, downright delusional at worst.

The post-truth era means everybody walks around believing they have ‘figured out’ the truth, no hard evidence required, but they can’t all be right can they?😄

It’s neoliberal individualism gone mad. 🤪

Harry Law
Harry Law

Not so long ago Netanyahu was pleading with Putin [successfully] not to supply the S300 anti aircraft system [defensive] to Syria, at the same time Israel was the first country to get a fleet of F35’s [offensive] from the US. Putin defers far to much to the US/Israel, we now see the results. Incidentally how come Saudi Arabia can buy the S400 system, when they were one of the instigators of Syrian regime change. Russia’s “partners” want Syria destroyed, the warmonger McCain always said the US should take on Syria and that Russia would ‘do nothing’, was he right?

Admin
Admin
Admin

Let’s recall the realities here and not succumb to hysteria. One of the reasons these provocations are happening is that Russia is winning in Syria, militarily and politically.

Big B
Big B

What are the realities: we are not being told?

Harry has touched on an important point: that Russia and Israel are becoming closer and closer strategic Russophone partners. Russia was the first country in the world to recognise W Jerusalem as Israel’s capital (before even Trump). There was only one foreign dignitary at the May 9th Victory Parade …their growing economic, military and cultural ties (Customs Union negotiations and visa free travel for instance) cannot be ignored.

The IDF’s 200 strikes in 18 months must lead to serious consideration of tacit Russian approval …because they could be quite quickly stopped without it? But that would escalate the situation. Where does Iran stand in this, because VVP made quite clear to Netanyahu that Iran was Russia’s principle strategic partner in the region. Is that set to change?

Netanyahu has met VVP what, three times this year, behind closed doors. What was said, and what agreements were made? It is also reputed that they have a direct one-to-one encrypted comms network (though I can’t confirm it was activated). But that they are in regular contact is undoubted.

There is a lot more going on beneath the surface than first meets the eye. VVP’s relations with Netanyahu blurs the boundaries and greys the narrative. The fact that VVP is saying it “looks accidental” doesn’t ring true …it looks anything other than accidental to me. Was there a communication breakdown as VVP is in Hungary?

I do not know, and based on what we have been told, neither does anyone else. The FS Auvergne fired missiles just as the Il-20 HQ went off screen. They weren’t firing at the IDF, I wouldn’t be too sure they were “window dressing” for them either. Whatever went on, we are being kept in the dark. Not precipitating WW3 is a good thing. Other than that, Russia’s foreign policy and ME relations are a 3D chess game that we know little of the motivation behind: but I can infer that Russia’s strategic needs are primary. At what point can that be labelled imperialist?

Frankly Speaking
Frankly Speaking

“What are the realities: we are not being told?”

Are you expecting to be spoon fed? And by the biased BBC, Guardian, etc!

It’s pretty clear that Assad has won with Putin’s support. China is on side too as evidenced by recent military manoeuvres. What is happening now is the US, UK, France, Israel, Turkey, Saudi just saving face and been allowed the odd small success or two.

However, Israel royally fucked up last night and Netanyahu will lose a plane or three if he tries it again.

Big B
Big B

You didn’t really read my comment: this “odd small success ” has happened 200 times in the last 18 months …with the downing of how many IDF planes …1? Russia providing S-300s, or S-400s, or upgrading the 1960’s SAM 2s would secure Syrian airspace. But these supplies are not forthcoming. Because Israel will not allow them.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liberman-to-russian-media-israel-did-not-join-western-action-against-moscow/

The situation is a lot more complex: and no, I don’t want to be spoonfed by the BBC. The Saker posits a “Zionist 5th Column” in Russia that VVP has to accommodate. You seem to want a simplistic ZioNATO v Russia narrative, all I am saying it is a lot more nuanced than that. And I didn’t get that from the Graun!

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

There are Zionazi Fifth Columns in every country on Earth, save China, hence the Zionazis’ great fear and hatred of China’s rise, and the implacable aggression of the Sabbat Goyim Trump regime towards China. And that of the pipsqueak Austfailian regime, its ‘intelligence’ apparatus and the fakestream media sewer here, as well.

5th Column Always Ready
5th Column Always Ready

The Israelis have successfully infiltrated Chinese social media.

In a similar fashion to the US, they continually (but not aggressively) ‘insert’ news favorable to jews and Israel, on Chinese social media websites. This is done in China in non-political settings on websites/webpages that seem unconnected to Israel.

jiri
jiri

In China the Fifth Column is the ruling faction.

manfromatlan

Hasn’t lost how many planes yet?

Paul X
Paul X

Yes indeed. Netanyahu with his Chief of Staff and Director of Intelligence arrived in Moscow within hours of Putin’s announcement Russia was entering the fray in Syria. While the Americans and Europeans had the tantrums over the audacity of Putin’s interference in ‘their’ war, the Israelis were flying in at very short notice. After 8 hours intense discussion both parties declined to say a word about any agreement they had come to. Russia has long had some influence in Israel not least because of what was virtually a mass exodus of Russian Jews to Israel when they were able to go, measured in the millions. Three cabinet posts are held (or were recently) by Russian speaking first generation immigrants. But that’s hardly a reason for special treatment, maybe it’s because they’ve got some formidable weapons, including the nuclear sort and are notoriously unafraid to use them, damn the international outcry. Putin is rightly careful and if he’s right about it being ultimately an accident then it would have been crazy to lie and say otherwise.

白矛

One must bear in mind the zionist factions resident at the top of the Russian hierarchy.. Putin has to fight and tread the razor edge with one arm tied behind his back..

vexarb

Like Pope Francis (an ex-bouncer) Putin is street wise, but at heart Putin is a builder and a reconciler. Remember, when all this kerfluffle is over, there will be New Silk Road High Speed Rail links from China to Haifa and Damascus via Iran — then on to Africa and Europe by sea across the Med or by more HSR links via Turkey. China already has been given the keys to Haifa port by Israel (much to the consternation of Uncle $cam’s Lootenant Pinkerton because the White Fleet also uses Haifa port). And the first HSR train from China has arrived in Iran.

A punch up is always fun, but for the first time in decades there are some intelligent, ethical and responsible Leaders in the world; Three Wise Men from the East: Assad, Nasr’Allah and Putin (with the cautious, patient, stability loving Leaders of 3,000 year old Iran and 5,000 year old China standing solidly behind these three).

mog

Important to note that although I regularly read allegations against an American ‘military-industrial complex’, I rarely hear the same levelled against the Russian state. Russia is the second biggest arms manufacturer in the world, are there not political pressures to maintain this industry for the sake of the Russian economy, as there are in the United States or the United Kingdom?
If so, then how well separated are the Kremiln’s policies on foreign policy and those on economic development? How does the need for startegic defence against Nato aggression rub up against the need to keep the bomb factories operating?
War is a racket, we say. All wars are banker’s wars, we say. Russia too is a country with plenty of weapons manufacturers and bankers.

BigB
BigB

I’m glad you said that, Mog. The Russians don’t seem too bothered who they sell arms to, which is the dealer mentality.

Bracketing off Russia, and their.increasing part in it …if we take the system view: the global elite neoliberal ruling class is turning the world into an armed madhouse, fueled by extractivist rape and pollution. They are basically insane, suffering from a collective hysteria of exceptionalist national interest and security. Securing the nationalist statist delusion is a zero sum race to precipitate Armageddon …either by civilisational collapse, ecocide, or nuclear extinction.

They will not stop, perhaps a severe but less than totally catastrophic shock might cause pause for reflection. Unless the oppressed people wake from their slumber and protest for peace, world peace that can only be effected by system change, I fear nights like the one in question will proliferate. It’s no use blaming the individuals involved, but still less in praising their actions. Unless the people develop their own values, and embrace peace, one morning we won’t wake up.

mog

I would think that the Russian government think quite carefully about to whom they sell which weapons and how many. I would think that all governments do.

Big B
Big B

https://www.aseantoday.com/2018/03/putin-uses-arms-sales-to-asean-to-increase-russian-standing-in-southeast-asia/

I’m afraid I don’t share that faith, Mog. The need for a fictitious and hyped national security breeds insecurity and instability. The uneasy ‘peace’, or ‘Pax Capitalis‘ as I call it, is the subversion of peace. Real peace negates the need for an arms race for profit: whose profit? Not humanities …only an inhuman elites.

mog

No faith here either BigB, and the assertion that there is strategy in arms contracts (that it is an extension of foreign policy) is not an attempt at re-assurance.
‘There is no way to peace.
Peace is the way’.

Admin

Obviously the potential is there, but do you see much evidence to indicate Russia is pursuing pro-conflict policies? I would say, in general, the opposite is the case, don’t you agree?

mog

The argument goes that arming naitons with advanced weaponry is a ‘pro-conflict policy’. There is an unavoidable principle at work: that making weapons makes money, that conflict creates demand for weapons and that nations are all in competition against each other to survive.
Even if we conclude Putin’s intentions are wholly defensive, the Russian government is still beholden to these political forces.

Big B
Big B

The problem is not the “pro-conflict” personnel, the problem is the systemic “pro-conflict” production of the personnel …it is a machine-age industrialised production …a “pro-conflict” ‘machine-becoming’ [Guattari].

Without a radical insight into the programme of the machine: there can be no systemic change …we just keep arming ourselves until one morning…

Using Hannah Arendt’s definitions of thought and thoughtlessnes …there are two basic discernments, or judgement paths we are on. It only takes a minimum of critical consciousness to discern which one, and where we are heading. Who, from within the machine-age “pro-conflict” system can make that distinction and act upon it?

Ergo, we must act for ourselves.

The root cause of the current civilisational crisis is, counter-intuitively, a perception. How can a perception change the world? Well, our current perceptual misrecognition is about to end it.

Carpe diem, Mog. I’m taking this a bit maudlin because I lost a good friend recently. Life’s transient, enjoy every minute …the way the machine-age “pro-conflict” elite gamble with out future, it could be over before you know it.

I apologise for the bad vibe…

mog

That is understandable.
I wander in a dreamlike state recently.
I can only wonder if humanity’s collective communication might force us to face our collective mortality together…in some way that I do not comprehend yet.
People keep telling me, “Enjoy yourself while it lasts”, but I think to myself (and occasionally ask), ‘What is real enjoyment if not in harmony with, if not toward, some kind of future?’

Big B
Big B

My friend, the future is already here, and the harmony that brings is in its immanence.

Look not forward, or back…

As Thay (Thich Nhat Hanh) said: “There’s peace in every step”…

Big B
Big B

200 IDF strikes in 18 months, that could be stopped by turning on their S-400s, would be an instance.. Israel has lobbied successfully to prevent Syria from securing its own airspace. The majority of these attacks are to prevent Assad acquiring what Haaretz terms “lethal weaponry” …a euphemism for Iranian supplied air defences that could secure Syrian airspace. As could a Russian declared NFZ (though the IDF would just standoff over Lebanon or the Med, and not penetrate Syrian airspace). Or Russian supplied S-300s.

So my answer is yes and no. The Russophone alliance of Russia and Israel seems to be ascendant over Syrian sovereignty. Or it was, until Monday. There appears to have been a breakdown in the de-confliction agreement, or a deliberate misuse and provocation by Israel. The jury is out on that one for the moment. If the attacks are stopped, I would tend to agree with you.

There is the small matter of the international silence surrounding the FS Auvergne firing missiles concurrent with the downing of the Il-20 HQ. These either hit the Il-20 or Latakia. Has anyone considered the Il-20 WAS the target? That there was no accident, but a deliberate targeting? Did the IDF or French take out the Russian early warning system and electronic warfare capability to leave Latakia vulnerable? I don’t know, and Rothschild Macron said no! It is worth considering though, I feel.

Integrated into the systems view of militaristic, imperialistic, and sub-imperialistic, and extractivist proliferation: it hardly matters who did what when. They are not giving us an insight into their collective insanity and power games, where the stakes are humanities very survivability. Russia only seemed to remember on Monday that the serial numbers on the MH-17 BUK, means it was made in 1986. What else have they forgotten? What else do they not know?

Humanity has no strategic allies within the global neoliberal ruling class. Arming the world is a “pro-conflict policy”, wouldn’t you agree? Where militaristic proliferation can’t facilitate peace: the only possible de-confliction becomes system change? There are good and bad actors within the current globally hegemonic cultural system: VVP is possibly the best, so it would be unfair to heap the woes of an essentially evil system upon him …especially in isolation. So it must fall to those outside the transnational globally integrated system to call out where this insanity will lead. That’s you and me?

What I am suggesting is rather than the inevitably favourable comparison of VVP, and well, just about anyone else …let’s look at the bigger picture. International World Capitalism, as Guattari termed it, has faced us with the choice of three suicides. Without a radical transformation of the oppressed consciousness (a la Guattari, Deleuze, Freire, Bookchin, Naess, but better still the secular Buddha) …there will soon enough come the day that does not dawn… Monday night was a foreshadowing of that very day?

mog

Russia only seemed to remember on Monday that the serial numbers on the MH-17 BUK, means it was made in 1986. What else have they forgotten? What else do they not know?
Yeah, that was some slow paperwork (even by my low standards).
Motive still leads my thoughts to Ukraine on that one, but WTF?
We know nothing.

Tom
Tom

Agreed. Russia doesn’t have 800 bases around the world and doesn’t meddle other countries internal politics. Countries turn to Russia for armaments because they feel threatened by the west. They are cheaper, work and aren’t turned off when NATO feels like spreading “democracy” to their land. Russia solves problems with diplomacy, NATO not so much. Putin is winning in Syria. The terrorists in Idlib will soon see the territory they control get smaller and smaller, until they have no where left to run.

“Alas,” said the mouse, “the world gets smaller every day. At first it was so wide that I ran along and was happy to see walls appearing to my right and left, but these high walls converged so quickly that I’m already in the last room, and there in the corner is the trap into which I must run.”

“But you’ve only got to run the other way,” said the cat, and ate it.

manfromatlan

Yet Russia refused to move its embassy to Israel https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201805141064450062-israel-embassy-jerusalem-russia-strange/

So, VVP, walking a fine balance?

manfromatlan

Didn’t sell S-400 to Iran either even though they had a deal.

Col from OZ
Col from OZ

Not so it was with s-300 which was eventually supplied. In 2020 any military can be ‘legally’ (UN SANCTIONED ) supplied. At that point if Iran can stay together they will buy formidable RUSSIAN ARMS.

mark
mark

That’s right. Putin constantly kowtows to Israhell and the Neocohens in Washington.
He refused to supply S300s Iran had paid for.
Syria has to defend itself with 50 year old museum piece S200s because Putin is busy selling all the S300s to Turkey and Shady Wahabia.
Russia always throws its friends and allies under the bus in the hope of a pat on the head from Uncle Sugar.
It refused to supply Iran with the S300s it had paid for.
It refused to complete Bushehr, as it was contracted to do.
It supported the destruction of Libya and facilitated and enabled US economic strangulation of Iraq, Iran and now DPRK.
Russia is a snake. It cannot be trusted.

Admin
Admin
Admin

Is Putin an aggressive dictator who endangers world peace by threatening NATO at every turn, or is he a weak appeaser who is constantly trying to get the approval of Israel and the US?

Paul C
Paul C

Or is he a very reasonable man on a high wire juggling with big bombs labelled Nuke?

Admin
Admin
Admin

Well quite. But the anti-Putin narrative has two mutually contradictory arguments, and it’s appropriate to point that out. 🙂

Big B
Big B

The VVP moral paragon narrative is problematic too:

“I support Israel’s battle that is intended to keep its citizens protected,”

VVP on Israel’s right for the IDF to indiscriminately murder Palestinian’s in Operation Protective Edge.

https://fjc-fsu.org/president-putin-support-israel/

Admin

The idea a head of state can function as a moral paragon is naive of course. Putin pursues Russia’s interests, not world peace and brotherhood. But at the same time we can’t ignore the fact he does so while adhering to the requirements of international law far more than the west does. In that sense, he has some claim to respect from those who value ethical conduct. Whatever his motives may be this fact deserves to be stated and made clear.

Big B
Big B

Sorry, but remind me again where Operation Protective Edge is sanctioned in International Law?

Or slow genocide in general?

That seems a very moral relativist ethical argument. Ethical conduct as I understand it is normative and generative …peace produces peace; war produces war.

Perhaps if the current geopolitical system is morally relativistic, that is immoral, we should call out the whole system. Degrees of relative inhumanity will not produce humanity. Maybe there is still time to organise for system change.

I’m sure you read the Saker’s blog. Quite a few of the comments declare that they are sure VVP knows what he is doing. Maybe he does, but the Saker’s analysis shows he is being pulled, that is partially controlled, by many non-aligned intra-state factions. Which is to say, he is being pulled apart.

Are we really going to leave the future of humanity in the hands of one relatively sane man. Or do we take the radical responsibility of our own future back?

I would favour the latter, if, for no other reason, that we would have no one else to blame.

manfromatlan

“Or do we take the radical responsibility of our own future back?”

So, how many nukes do you possess?

Big B
Big B

Nukes are not a symbol of strength, but of weakness. There is only one global superpower, and that is us. Only, we have yet to find our strength, that is all.

manfromatlan

Coming from Pakistan as I do, Big B, then we found nothing deterred our larger expansionist neighbour to the East than that we should develop our own nuclear program. (India exploded their nuke first.)

And as the West already knows, we exchanged our nuclear dual plutonium/uranium technology with North Korea in return for their missile plans.

So the Korean peninsula is heading for peace in our times thanks in great part to Pakistan, just saying.

Nothing deters a bully more than a deterrent 🙂

Tom
Tom

“But the anti-Putin narrative has two mutually contradictory arguments, and it’s appropriate to point that out”. So does the Salisbury saga. Putin’s agents are supermen that can do the impossible but at the same time would give Chevy Chase) and Aykroyd from Spies like us a run for their money at being inept.

manfromatlan

Anyone else getting you are posting too soon messages or the notify new comments via email plug in not working?

manfromatlan

Ronald Reagan and the US were complicit in the downing of KAL Flight 007. Similar moves afoot again to build up military race between Russia and US and bog Russia in Syria https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1985/09/26/the-fate-of-ke007-an-exchange/

vexarb

BTL SyrPer, vot tak on September 18, 2018 · at 12:22 pm EST/EDT

Interesting take from an israeli.

Israel Unlikely to Fly Freely Over Syria After Il-20 Incident – Ex-Official

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201809181068132500-israel-syria-il-20-incident-airspace/

“Israel is unlikely to freely use Syrian airspace in the wake of the crash of a Russian Il-20 military aircraft over the Mediterranean Sea, Yakov Kedmi, a former high-ranking Israeli intelligence official, told Sputnik.

“There was an agreement between Israel and Russia that the actions of Israel in Syria’s airspace would not endanger lives of Russian troops. Israel breached this commitment… What happens next will depend on the position of Israel. Most likely, Israel will no longer be able to enjoy the same freedom in the sky of Syria as it did before the incident,” Kedmi said.

“Israel’s attack in itself, regardless of the consequences, was an irresponsible step, because there is not a single facility on the territory of Syria that might have been used by Iran and whose destruction would have justified an attack on it, which could endanger the Russian troops,” Kedmi said.”

Mulga Mumblebrain
Mulga Mumblebrain

The idea that Israel would honour ANY ‘agreement’ made with anyone is quite mirth-inducing.