164

OPEN THREAD: Brexit – Deal or No Deal?

Theresa May’s proposed “deal” for leaving the European Union has been criticised by MP’s from all across the political spectrum. Cabinet Ministers have resigned, jobs have been refused, letters of no-confidence have been sent.

Where is this going?

Will we see a Tory leadership election? If so, who’s going to win it?

If the deal is voted down by Parliament, a vote of no confidence in Theresa May is almost inevitable.
A vote of no confidence will almost certainly trigger a new General Election.
A General Election Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party would be favourites to win.

This puts the anti-Corbyn Blairite MPs in a difficult position – will they ruin what’s left of their credibility by backing the “deal” proposed by the Tory government? Will they call for an election and hope to replace Corbyn if/when Labour win? Or will we see a third Labour leadership election?

Discuss below.

Filed under: discussion threads, featured, latest, UK

by

Kit Knightly is co-editor of OffGuardian. The Guardian banned him from commenting. Twice. He used to write for fun, but now he's forced to out of a near-permanent sense of outrage.

avatar
  Subscribe  
newest oldest most voted
Notify of
BigB
BigB

This changes everything. Everything we think we know about Brexit is a lie. This is the deal, the whole deal, and nothing but the deal. NO ONE voted for this, and a “People’s Referendum” won’t change a thing. Everyone, whether Leave or Remain, should unite to reject it, or so I would hope. The Whitehall farce, the media circus, the Chequers deal/no deal, the Withdrawal in out, shake it all about …are just mendacious counterfeited distractions. There has only every been one agenda, and this is it.

https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/emergency-briefing-defence-and-security-david-ellis

mark
mark

Maybe we should have another Referendum on whether we should have another Referendum.

binra

The idea that rather than ‘stupid’ or failure is by design rather than by error has a basis in human ‘psychology’ or more accurately in our psychic-emotional defences. Some of this is reflected in deliberate blocks to true progress or human solutions in fear of losing budgets, funding, markets, protections, privileges and any other attribute of a sense of maintaining or increasing power, or control with regard to protecting such invested identity.

Attachment to a failed or outdated model is an inflexibility or refusal to change that consolidates power in the ‘establishment’ as it clings to the power to outsource (dump) the pain-consquence of its false thinking and resulting actions onto the ‘unworthy’ or un-personed or de-voiced population.

Opening the IDEA of people having a voice (the ‘brexit strategy’) is dangerous and therefore overseen as a ‘managed debate’ in which nothing ‘threatening’ to the existing order is to be allowed – or is to be directed like a shaped charge as the means to remould the system to more ‘efficiently’ run the old model.

The ‘face’ of stupid has been commonly used as a front and a feint for manipulative intent… “fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”

Underestimating an adversary is the most guaranteed way to succumb. Pride (brash opinion and smug self-righteousness) comes before the Fall. While all sorts of people and events play out the roles of rival or enemy, I hold that unawareness of our own ‘psychic-emotional defences’ operates the primary vector of threat to sanity and peace – not least by the projections of such inner conflict onto outer circumstance over which we then strategise fight or flight response which of course includes the feint of flight or the bluster of fight (aggressive threat magnification).

So does anything in ‘brexit’ really have anything of significance apart from which system of illusion to be managed under? Yes. It is the IDEA of having a Voice. The Idea of consent as a basis for relationships of freedom AND responsibility, and the Idea of relationship as a creative source and nature. These Ideas I give an I to because they are inherent to our being, regardless their suppression, denial, usurpation or replacement with conceptual frameworks of ‘threat or sickness management’ under an illusion of power as protection.

It paints itself into a corner, and as a cornered rat, is liable to seek to kill anything that comes near.
How does one approach a madman with destructive abilities?
Perhaps for a start – DON’T!
Approach anyone as an extension of willingness for any channel of cooperation and communication by which to grow ‘trust’ of a truly shared or grounded perspective.
This works in both or all directions of any conflict where there is the awareness of a need for communication as holding not only a check on destructive outcomes for all concerned, but the only opportunity for any real solution FOR everyone involved. The deceit of the intent to mask war agenda in ‘peace talks’ is the masking of a manipulative intent and framing in the forms or tokens of outward speech or behaviours. The presumption that the ‘enemy’ is a malign intent that can never be actually trusted is the intent to persist IN that act upon and against others – AS IF the victim and thereby ‘justified’. And stories are invented or made up by which to frame and direct all thinking that can then be acceptable or ‘make sense’ – so as to deny a voice to any other view except the ‘sides’ that support the persistence of the conflict that works the ‘destructo-capitalism’ or evaporation of wealth into pain and debt – which makes failure, stupidity and blatant lies, the choice of the ‘lesser’ evil relative to an ‘unknown’ or unpredictable sense of lost control into which every unconscious fear is projected as the ‘greater evil’.

To those conditioned to slavery or state and corporate management, the idea of freedom does not arise – except within the frameworks of such a life experience. The only way to grow the awareness of freedom is through responsibility for choice – which cannot be thrust upon those who fear and refuse it – but CAN be extended as an educational relationship. Without the capacity to evaluate the nature of the outcomes being chosen, what basis is there FOR choice as anything but an engineered outcome?

The old model assigns responsibility to behaviours as the incentive system of moral guilting or accreditation. But behaviours are only the result of the expression or suppression of thinking and perception acted from as IF true.
Responsibility for thought cannot be held under the same system of ‘management’ but has to operate within the freedom to learn by practice – which is denied and demonised by ‘thought-crime’ of a claim to a moral right to shut down Consciousness itself rather than embrace, expand and change. Transformation is the NATURE of our existence and a false god is the idea of ruling or running the ruling narrative over it. This puts us (our mind) at war with Reality – which absurd and insane as that is, demands the sacrifice of all that is true in order to SEEM real in its place.

ANYTHING true is therefore a threat to a false system of truth-control and yet remains the absolute source of support for the seeming power to deny it. Union and cooperation in shared willingness of freely accepted and embraced purpose is the original that the counterfeit masks as the face or form of. By fruits are we known. Everything that is brought forth as solution sprouts many headed progeny of problems that are then used as if new calls for action or fuel to generate more of the SAME fake solutions – which promise or may seem to have worked in the short term as a mitigating management of otherwise intolerable conflicts. But this is the way to grow a store of denials – and not of growing a cultural consciousness of treasure in ‘heaven’ while yet in the Earth Experience.

There is such a thing as truly given, truly shared and truly lived. It cannot appear on a transactional spreadsheet because the qualities are not quantifiable – except as a raising of awareness of coherence.

Anaesthetics are used to suppress or deny the capacity of communication prior to surgical interventions. Certain stimuli can be effected to see if any response indicates capacity of consciousness of pain – or indeed consciousness as capacity to focus, interpret and respond. They can also be used for manipulative and destructive ends. To what degree is unconsciousness imposed upon the apparently unwilling? Or to what degree is unconsciousness demanded by the apparently willing? This I sense is to be weighed in our own hearts – if we have the wherewithal to do so. And then acted from because, ‘if you don’t use it, you lose it’. In no less surety is the observation that ‘what we resist, persists’.
Nothing is ever ‘eradicated’ by denial, but simply put out of mind, beneath its focus, to operate no less actively unseen – AS the framing of such a mind of denial. We often call it hypocritical because it is self contradictory, and yet while expert in uncovering the ‘sins’ of the other, we are so much less inclined to own responsibility for our own – and demand OTHER people change to fit OUR need to remain unconscious. In fact we make versions of them in our own mind that substitute for any real presence and act as if they are fact. This is ‘unconscious’ or sleep walking, and as likely to find reinforcement for blaming a world out there, as conscious honesty is for recognising our own part and response in any breakdown of communication.

Consciousness is presumed or assigned to a placeholder, just as wealth to tokens and derivatives.

‘Deal’ is a business term that stinks of getting one over, or getting the better of, or indeed securing a result by making an offer that cant be refused. New deal? Trade deal? Deals are fleshed out by faceless bureaucrats employed by shadow players behind proxy politicians for mafia like interests. As the big bank money-laundering, pharma fraud, and any other corporate system of regulatory protected plunder scam reveals, organised crime and organised law and order, has a revolving door. When the foxes run the henhouse, the law has to be renewed in our hearts while being called for in true accounting and witness (transparency to verifiability and accountability to law).

Okulo
Okulo

Don’t think for a moment that the EU has seized enough power from its constituent states.

https://twitter.com/Tim_R_Dawson/status/1063801536571236354

The pro-EU ideologues must be blinded by dogma not to see this. The EU is like the parasite toxoplasma gondii which infects the brain into not fearing predators.

In 20 years I will be dead but by then, your children and grandchildren will be living under a dictatorship and will probably love their dictators. But I will die knowing that did not cheer the occupying EU army as they marched through the streets as some will.

Wait, what EU army?

The one that conspiracy theorists warned about and were deservedly ridiculed for. The one which on the eve of the referendum, europhiles scoffed at the ridiculousness of the idea. The one which they started talking about in real terms the very next day. The one which Merkel and Macron are now calling for quite openly.

But of course, Brexiteers are just stupid, ill-informed racists for even doubting the benevolence of the EU.

Okulo
Okulo

I assume that the person who gave my comment the thumbs down watched the video clip of Guy Verhofstadt and thought, yeah, that’s what we need to do, transfer more sovereignty and powers to the EU. Either that, or they didn’t bother to watch the clip because they were did not want to hear the truth coming from the mouth of somebody for whom furthering the EU’s agenda is a mission.

tommy
tommy

Oh. I’m sorry , I thought we had already give it to them, have we found some more powers we didn’t know we had and handed that to them as well? those nasty Europeans taking 0.7 % of our total expenditure which we GIVE every year, and those nasty laws they impose on us until you ask them which ones are they, then the idiots can’t tell you, maybe you could, you seem to know what you’re on about?

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

“I assume that the person who gave my comment the thumbs down…”

I have hit the occasional random, non-cancellable thumb just aiming for the cancellable ‘Reply’ on my informal (tablet) browser rather than my formal (desktop) system. Bad UI ergonomics.

binra

Indeed I have also. But I note the mind’s capacity to project itself into circumstances that are in fact unverified – and react emotionally as if they are true.

As for giving up power of choice or decision making such as is at least hinted at in ideas of soeverignty – to the EU – the question is then to who or to what are the idea of consensual and relational choices or outcomes given up to?

The people fronting the organisation(s) involved are not their backers or handlers, and the ideas that are structuring or framing such decisions as the forming and direction or purpose of the EU, are a mixture of well intentioned risk-aversion, social management, corporate hegemony (transnational powers), and technocratic pretensions. I say pretensions, because I see science is for sale, not just for funding, but for power – just as is every other human activity.

So I see ingeniously crafted systems of control that at certain levels seem justified and for the common good, but that the controls of the system are in shadow, hidden, unaccountable and once in possession of power, beyond any ability to be held in check. Tyranny.

I don’t see the frying pan of the EU as escaped by jumping into Great Business as usual either. and nor do I see ANY mention of any conflict of interests with Mrs May and her rock of a husband’s business interests. Are we all corporate serfs who have yet to recognize the fact?

Whats best for the dominant or established interests is done in our name because they pretend it is – or want to believe it is – or actually have come to believe it is the same. That they then get us to believe it in principle while offering apparent identity expressions within the frame is perhaps where the real power lies.

What ARE the primary power lobbies operating through Britain? If power in this sense means actual influence?
This is generally what we are not allowed to talk about or are successfully diverted from noticing. Perhaps it is not my/our business or ‘need to know’?
Until of course it so interferes with quality of life as to awaken a need to heal or correct false thinking.
If it were true-thinking the fruits would be evident.

Okulo
Okulo

Take it from a European (Romanian):

Tommy
Tommy

It only infects the brain of the ignorant brainwashed BBC indoctrinated idiots you lot have become, we won’t be going anywhere, get used to it, you’ve got your silly little blue passport what else do you want?

Okulo
Okulo

Huh? I don’t watch television but I cannot bear to listen to Radio Four anymore; every programme seems to be seasoned with some anti-Brexit theme or subtle injection of bias.

Baron
Baron

Out, no deal, it has been the best outcome for us from the start.

Frankly Speaking
Frankly Speaking

I guess you are not like most Brits in a JAM situation (just about managing), living from pay payket to pay packet.

I guess you have never worked in operations or logistics and fail to understand the depth of what crashing out of the EU will do in the REAL world.

Academics, retirees, affluents, expats, can theorise and wish for whatever they want safe in the knowledge that their own incomes will be unscathed from a no deal.

No deal is an utterly reckless outcome which the neoliberals wish for. Disaster capitalism is their playbook, causing chaos thn sweeping in to grab and transform countries and their assets. They, and anarchists.

Tommy
Tommy

Don’t even attempt to educate them, it wouldn’t matter if they lost their jobs and they became homeless, their children taken off them, the morons would still vote leave

binra

Tommy, Reread what you say lest you become the the thing you say you hate.
Education is not force upon anyone. But supported, encouraged or led out as their own desire to learn.
If you write off the human race, even down the generations you can occupy the same template as everyone else who hates life and claims grievance as the basis for vengeful destruction as a moral duty.
There IS no debate in polarised identity, so you are right not to seek to persuade another when they are no even listening. But you CAN observe the self-same attitude and act in yourself. Whoever has the awareness in the position to act from something less conflicted and conflicting than the other(s) for the sake of the whole – but in doing so will risk ‘losing’ their group identity and perhaps meet rejection.
Life IS an education – until of course it is a spontaneous recognition of aligned purpose.
The European Union has been associated with security – at a cost. As does the idea of ‘the state’ as the unified right to endorse violence, or the corporate sector as the infrastructure of supply.
But there is a balance between the law that is made for Man, and the Law to which Man (us) is sacrificed.
There IS no vision for a free and just world within the current frameworks on offer, because they all operate a protection against such a risk, not least because freedom is associated with the power to protect against fears rather than own and transform them.

tommy
tommy

You’re obviously a highlt educated person coming out with that comprehensive reply.

factfictionfake

A more important question how will it affect the Premier League transfer window? Will players be stuck at Calais or will they be coming via the Republic of Ireland?

Wolfe tone

The British decision rulers were never going to leave the EU. The last two years played out was simply a conditioning of the public to accept a watered down brexit or to be exact, a rejection of brexit. It also takes time to infiltrate and drive into the sand the real party that wants out of the EU, I.e UKIP.

Okulo
Okulo

I’m sure that this is going to be very unpopular with a lot of people but it just occurred to me that we are doing this all wrong. The UK voted to ‘leave the European Union’ – verbatim. So we should not have to negotiate our way out; we should just leave and negotiate whatever is necessary from thereon.

This whole negotiation drama is a charade to appease the remainers whilst trying to project the appearance that we have left.

Tommy
Tommy

We are not negotiating our way out, we are trying to negotiate some kind of arrangement after we leave,sorry if it seems a bit hard to grasp, we are the ones who have chosen to leave, and who are now trying to tell the 27 remaing countries how to run their club in our favour, are you that blind not to be able to see that.

edgeoftheabyss
edgeoftheabyss

just for a moment, lets pop into eurozone – have a chat to some normal folk in, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Germany etc …..see what they think of zee euro…or on second thoughts, perhaps not – as don’t want to burst that oh so wonderully strong and unified E.U bubble…do we ?

Frankly Speaking
Frankly Speaking

“Just for a moment let’s…” compare apples with apples, not oranges.

Britain is a member of the EU, not the Eurozone currency union. We are leaving the EU, not the Eurozone.

Try talking to people who live in the EU but are not part of the Eurozone, for example, Poland, Sweden, Denmark who have control of their own currencies. You’ll find that their socio-economic wellbeing is generally excellent. Look at where Poland came from and look at where it is now, the Polish people are massively better off.

The Eurozone is a different kettle of fish. Under a single currency it is essential for the member states to abide by very strict rules, otherwise the currency falls apart. If that happened there would be chaos, blood flowing on the streets and impacts outside the Eurozone too.

All countries who joined the Eurozone signed up to the rules of the currency zone. If some countries cheated their entry as Greece did, with the help of Goldman Sachs, and if they want to undermine all other countries who use the Euro, then it’s Greece’s own fault and problem to manage. Their leaders decided not to exit the Euro and they have decided to accept the requirements of the Eurozone currency central banks placed upon them to protect the whole zone.

Don’t blame the Eurozone, blame Greek leaders, they have a choice, to leave the constrants of the Eurozone while still staying in the EU, bringing back the Drachma and running their economy successfully as Poland has done withing the EU and keeping their Zloty.

binra

Leaders are targeted, bought, installed, compromised.
Puppet regimes can be installed by brute force. They can also be a bought.
If your ‘leaders’ sell you into imprisonment, is it because they are slaves seeking personal privilege or protection within the prison?

1. Screw the people.
2. Set the narrative to outsource blame and consequence to the people for screwing up.

Banking – financial regulation –
Health – medical regulation
Environment – thought regulation
Industry – health and safety regulation
Politics – Media regulation

Now some but not all regulation operates legally above board and some of what is technically legal is done in extremely obscure or labyrinthine ways and some is an extortion racket that is protected by law or by the power to ignore or not comply to law and remain unchecked.

The mind of the intent to dominate or indeed undermine any rival, threat or challenge to its self asserted right as power, develops and uses a broad spectrum of approaches to achieve it goals.

The concentration of influence in the corporate transnational cartels is inherently corrupting to any former mode of governance. Private agenda given power over the whole is a corrupted or usurped system.

The forms by which a corrupt system operate are like the Walrus and the Carpenter – as far as the oysters are concerned.
https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/walrus-and-carpenter
If you are impatient read the ending first.

Frankly Speaking
Frankly Speaking

The average voter simply cannot comprehend most of what you are explaining and indeed, short of instigating a revolution, it’s not really solvable.

Voters need to look at what is put in front of them and make a choice, even going for the best of a bad bunch. Why? Because things have to carry on, businesses need to kee in business and pay their workers, schools and hospitals need to stay open, etc, etc.

We can have intellectual debates and discuss Rothschild, Zionist, Bilderberg conspiracies, etc, but assuming those things are happening, none of us can really do anything about it.

If you and others think that Brexit, a hard Brexit is the revolution needed to free ourselves from these sinister forces, you and they are massivley mistaken. We’ll be hurled into a Disaster Capitalism scenario and taken over by neoliberals. That’s what they intend to do? Is that what you intend? Is that what the average Brexit voter intends?

binra

I haven’t met the average voter and so I cant speak for them.
I wasn’t aware that voting was anything to do with effecting policy in the EU – at least the MEP’s have no such powers.

If you are indicating an imminent election on the EU and therefore desire to influence voters. Go right ahead.

The choices offered may be damned either way – or we would not have been offered a choice by established power.
The City of London had both options covered – wasn’t that what Cameron sorted before calling the referendum on EU membership? Why did he do this? Who are his ‘advisors’?

I lean to the possibility of the idea of sovereignty of the will and away from technocracy or its faceless tech-extended bureaucratic replacement – regardless the front-end ‘face’ applied.

The belief that you have to ‘do something about it’ is not my sense. My sense of voting as that what we give to Caesar we deny God and vice versa. I realize you can dismiss or attack the terms chosen here, but without a true foundation, a world of lies can hardly be ‘powerful, stable or fit for any purpose BUT the protection of the lie as ‘too big to fail’.
So I ‘vote’ to strengthen the culture and consciousness of the world that I value, regardless if most everyone else chooses the valueless (or a negatively operating society and Economy).

I respect your right to inform yourself as best you may in making your choices. That is how I also rest in my own. I am not your keeper, and you can of course learn and grow by your own choices and outcomes.

My sense of sinister forces -includes but extends larger than neo-liberals neo cons and any other ‘liberating ‘con’.
But then so does my appreciation of the way Life actually works – if not the human model or narrative as to how the world works.

Freedom and responsibility are one thing or two facets of one thing.
The ‘average’ anyone isn’t where new perspectives find welcome and alignment in shared purpose.
If comments have to fit a preconceived criteria to give witness to the themes being discussed – where can I see such rules?
My sense of the globalist agenda is many pronged and the apparent relations between Eurasia, Eastasia and Oceania is more for the purpose of maintaining the respective populations under ignorance and scarcity – from which the carrot and stick operate like a clockwork orange.

What can you DO about your life?
First one has to undo false narratives so as to align doing with being.
The average mind-in-reaction has no time nor inclination to question its predicament.
I can only speak to or share with those who do.

The life goes on bit is true – but the system goes on or the civilisation goes on is not the same thing.
The science is corrupted, the medical model is a scam, the very basis of our thinking is running on a false currency – but like our financial system – the confidence trick is one of such dependency as not to be able to imagine anything else. Too big to fail. Where perhaps we may agree is that ‘too big to fail’ is the basis of the destructo-capitalism that sacrifices anything and everything still left to plunder to maintain its habit. Writ large it is your neo-whatevers but only as a collective embodiment of a private sense of self-survival in current terms.
Of course those without such influence seek other ways to limit harm or consequence – such as enforced austerity of wealth and sacrifice of freedoms to a state that is supposed to hold the rogue capitalism in check, but the foxes run the henhouse – but for a few residual holdouts who will become, thought ciminals if they persist in non compliance.

In current politics I suppose I sound cynical – but only because I see cynicism (hate) in our very foundations, and dont see any system as being capable of transcending its predicates. But I don’t hold that of human beings – who are inherently capable of recognizing what does not belong in them and releasing it to wholly embrace what does – but of course heavily defended against seeing what would then be no choice at all, because a false seen as false can no longer run in place of – and as if – true.

I don’t support so called ‘trade deals’ as currently being pushed as trade deals so much as trojans by which to legally shift power from what is left of any sovereign will to off shore corporate lawyers – who draft the ‘deals’ in secret.

You are right that the nature of events as unfolding is outside the understanding of the common man – and even those who endeavour to understand in more detail fall into all kinds of error – not least because the nature of the defence against being exposed is of a different order. We cannot use the same mind to uncover the deceits by which such a mind is made. Or, you cant solve the problem at the level of the problem.

But we can set or align our purpose in a true appreciation instead of being set against a false – and this, though challenging, is a reclaiming of power from a state of powerlessness, or a waking up in the presence of life to live this and each day well. Negative cooperations seem to join us but only in hate or reaction against mutually agreed threat or enemy.

I am growing the foundation in which we can join in truly shared purpose. Perhaps ahead of my time or perfectly on time – because – here I am.

Limiting the destructive is necessary of course, but so is disinhibiting the movement love as the capacity to be with what is – and uncover the recognition of truth here. Currently only hate is accorded power and love seen as weak and therefore a threat to the maintaining OF power. To a mind under power all threats are the same; as a call to defence.

Thus the State or system denies the very voices that would bring in needed perspectives because they do not FIT or support the sense of being in control or as in Semmelweis – challenge the right to operate such control in whatever manner they are accustomed to doing? ‘Never mind killing mothers in birth and the cascade of misery therefrom – what about Doctors saving face?’ What we take from God we sacrifice to Caesar. And having invested in a lie, defend it while it multiplies – as if our survival. And in formative years, perhaps it was whatever we had to do to survive.

People may not understand HOW they are deceived and may be too fearful to really LOOK, but the recognition of being deceived is the basis from which to open a self honesty that otherwise cannot come in. For truth is always the first ‘casualty’ of a mind at war with itself. But not ‘dead’ so much as covered over and denied.

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc

binra, Great post. Thank You.

edgeoftheabyss
edgeoftheabyss

and I thought it’d all gone Pear shaped – but as with the wizardry of any manipulated hybrid – shhhhh it’s in the appearance….as when beauty made it’s entrance , all stupefied, by the sweet promises to come…little did it realise – the house was built by scum….and vot iz dis – by 2020 all members must join the currency union – or else…boo hoo “we’ll stamp our feet and cut off your wine quota” etc etc……..but “If you fall I’ll fall with you baby?”..nahhh, .I dont think so somehow – because nights fallin, on the wet dreams home – buts gettin harder to see stars for storm clouds….above the Treaty of Rome. Hey-Ho.
🙂

Okulo
Okulo

I’m quite happy to have a difference of opinion about EU membership with anybody but I have no time for anybody who didn’t like the result of the referendum and supports pulling any trick out of the book to reverse it. My God, I have had to live with election results that have not gone the way I wanted going right back to the 1975 referendum when I was three years too young to vote. I have never once cried foul, demanded a rerun or moaned incessantly like a rheumatoid ghoul. Does anybody think that Brexit supporters would have been behaving like this had the result gone the other way. This abhorrent behaviour stems from the arrogance of the remainers believing that the result was in the bag just like the supporters of Hillary Clinton.

If this decision is reversed by any means, by a second referendum or by political cowardice, it will rive the UK to such a depth that the country will have wounds which may never heal. The disappointment of those who cannot accept that the vote did not go their way is a sigh compared to the storm which will be felt in the guts of those who will be betrayed. I doubt there will be any forgiveness.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

@ Okulo “I have no time for anybody who didn’t like the result of the referendum and supports pulling any trick out of the book to reverse it.”

Give me a moment.

What if there was vote manipulation?
What if people were targetted and individually served up a personalized adverts on their facebook accounts?
And such adverts weren’t cleared for advertising standards? Or declared in the brexiters spending?
i.e it is clear voter manipulation

FaceButt have refused to say how much they charged for the billion ads, to how many people, or what these ads were.

The purpotrators, the self proclaimed bad boys of brexit and others who set up the data, using Cambridge Analytica, AIQ, and the ovetarching SCL, deep state controlling setup, who proudly claimed how they stole the referendum – are ignored by the politicians, MSM, police and the Electoral Commission.

If they got just one person in 33 to vote for brexit by their manipulation then they stole the result.

You think that is ok?

mark
mark

Remain outspent Leave by over 2 to 1. The referendum was rigged – it was rigged in favour of Remain. And they still lost anyway.

Okulo
Okulo

@DunGroanin I could not have created a more accurate caricature of my point if I had spent five years at art school. You illustrate my point with grotesque precision.

If only you were to live up to your soubriquet.

Ken Kenn
Ken Kenn

The question is whether the old Western Powers wish to carry on in the old way?

It appears that all the old nations are fixated by economic liberalism as a means of growing an economy.

Austerity as it’s called is in actuality an admission of defeat not a cry of triumph and the US and other acolytes had better come up with something that grows economies not shrink them.

Chomsky calls austerity ” Class War ” and it is just that.

The western governments have always transferred most growth in GDP to the rich and the better off so, nothing new there but the Financial Crash temporarily cost the asset classes dearly but they knew they could rely on their government backers to come to the rescue.And rescue them with no strings attache or quid pro quo they did.

Put simply the Crash is THE reason for austerity.

Relative to this massive problem for the voters Brexit is a symptom not the disease. It is not accidental that the far right immigrant blaming parties are doing well. Yes they’ll blame Europe – yes they’ll blame the USA and the UK will blame the EU.

But this is letting the capitalists and their representatives ( governments ) off the hook.

I can relate more to the UK and will only say that those who blame the EU for the UK’s industrial and Social decline or immigrants on low pay are either ignorant or deceitful.

Now – I don’t recall any EU rule that said you have to close down xy and z industry – do you?

I don’t recall any EU Directive that said you must sell your council houses – do Big Bang in the City of London and close down the pits either.

The truth is that these have all been choices made by the domestic governments not some outside force.

Austerity is a similar choice – no nation has to do it – they choose to do it.

Hilary and Trump choose to do it – the EU choose to do it and lo and behold the only group of nations that isn’t doing it are raising incomes ten to the dozen and growing their economies.

Perhaps our ‘smart’ Old World ‘ governments should consult the successful GDP growers as to how you go about investing in order to grow an economy?

That is never going to happen but it needs to otherwise when the next big country wants to leave the EU the commentators will still be scratching their heads and wondering – ” How did all this collapse of the Western World come about?”

Frankly Speaking
Frankly Speaking

Most Brexiteers have benefited from the UK being in Europe for 4 decades but are denying younger generations the same opportunity. Britains economy was utterly broken until we joined the EEC.

I’m alright Jack and I’m pulling up the drawbridge is the typical Brexiteer mindset. Not all, but the vast majority of Brexiteers who i know are selfish and spiteful bastards.

Frankly Speaking
Frankly Speaking

Just to add, Brexiters possess genuine concerns over democracy and sovereignty, but they are missing the elephant in the room: British democracy is what is broken rather than that of their European neighbours.

That broken democracy also allows the fueling of a dangerous neoliberal worldview by an foreign and offshore based media.

After Brexit the 1% will be dancing around the bonfire of workers rights and human rights and “Red tape” as England, in a disintegrating Kingdom, spirals away into a neoliberal wet dream, but nightmare for everyone else, of a deregulated corporate low tax haven, becoming the sweatshop of the Western Hemisphere.

Respectable Brexiters such as Corbyn and working class voters are regrettably naive and supporting the wrong cause. Once the constituency boundaries are redrawn there will never be another Labour government. Tory neoliberals will rule the roost in Brexit Britain and make the lives of millions of decent people even more miserable than today.

The UN just reported that 1 in 5 British live in official poverty. This should be headline news and people should be out on the streets but the biased media keeps them focused on the nasty Europeans and frothing at the mouth demanding Brexit, unknowingly marching towards a neoliberal nirvana.

Okulo
Okulo

The irony of you using broken democracy as an argument is astonishingly arrogant.

All EU laws are de facto UK laws until they are repealed by acts of Parliament, they don’t just vanish into thin air. The British population would have to elect a government who stated in their manifesto that they were going to repeal EU human rights laws for that to happen. And that is never going to happen.

For you to propagate this myth shows that you are either ill informed, misinformed or deliberately spreading disinformation.

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc

It’s not just BREXIT, and you may think It’s all closing in. I know of all sorts of people, of every political persuasion, who have had, not just their comments deleted, but their blogs closed down, and everything deleted without warning, notice or reason.

It’s not just me, but the internet doesn’t work like that. It was designed to maintain communications, even in the event of a nuclear war, by The American Military Industrial Complex. it was made available to everyone by Tim Berners Lee. He gave the World Wide Web away for free. I used to work for the same British company at the same time as his Dad – Conway Berners Lee, who is still alive and well at the age of 97. Any obstacle, can be routed round, often almost automatically or relatively simply.

“Nine Inch Nails – Head Like A Hole”

Tony

wardropper
wardropper

You do realize that linking to a video like that is essentially an act of violence against people who are attempting to keep a clear head here while they try to make sense of this messy subject… Let’s by all means enjoy Nine Inch Nails when the mood takes us, but let’s also not give anybody good reason to close our blogs down without warning. Noise pollution and unauthorized shock treatment are recognized offences today.

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc

Sorry wardropper. What exactly is allowed? Is this O.K? I Don’t watch TV.

“Peter Gabriel – Shock The Monkey”

Tony

wardropper
wardropper

I’m fairly certain that what we are going to see here is exactly how many figs our “representatives” do actually give for us. Brexit has, predictably, become the proverbial hot potato that nobody has the nerve to handle. They’ll all just run away from it as fast as they can. It’s simply too much hard work, and I am sure a comfortable early retirement suddenly looks very appealing to many of our utterly decadent Westminster relics.
The “Establishment” we are stuck with at the moment belongs in an ancient history book, and anything we can do to hasten its relegation to that domain has to be a good thing for human kind.

HD
HD

Moved out of UK to Spain thanks to being in the EU. Could only do that 40 years ago with millions in the bank. There are aspects of being in Europe that bypasses many of the brexiteers and millions of Brits in Spain are hardly mentioned. The UK got cold feet once they started talking about an EU army and Germany getting access to nuclear weapons would be an interesting scenario after the last world war when most of Europe flattened Germany.

Just some aspects that seem to go over peoples heads. Good and bad.

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc

In the real world, there are still men and women of courage and integrity, and most are much younger than all the occupants of Westminster, including The Civil Service.

Thank God, I never worked for any of them.

They are all completely useless. In fact they are a disgrace.

I know some of them. I mix with them socially, but no one I know would employ any of them.

Tony

binra

While deceit has ever worked the mind of man – both in himself and to others, these times lead me to take nothing at face value. The sideshow politics is a divide and rule by appeal to side with invested identity and against identified threats. As a drama it is exciting, fearful or exhilarating and thus has all the qualities of an addiction or persistent diversion from un-owned and un-faced relational experience. So I am not writing to the drama here.

My sense is that ‘one hand’ works both or all ‘sides’ of conflict in a way that MAY be to some degree conspired or contrived but is also the nature of the power of denial. Or rather the power given denial of the true feeling – where such feeling is self-conflicted,self-contradictory or chaotic. The mind makes an overlay reality by your own convictions.

The mind as ‘commander’ operates the attempt to counteract and override the ‘weakness’ of conflicted ‘chaos’ of the heart such that it equates control with understanding, power and security. It does so by seeking and finding – and inducing – the conditions for its own persistence as YOUR survival.

The mind is unaware or underestimates the fact that imposing ‘control’ or domination DOES the very thing it purports to defend against by inducing fear, division and … the demand for ‘control’. But some ARE aware of this and see it as the truth or honesty of power in a world of struggle for dominance against death. For the mind ‘lives’ under constant threat of undoing or ‘extinction’ should its false-founded reality be exposed in YOUR awareness.

And so necessary evils or lesser evils that must be suffered or enacted against a sense of greater threat or terror – that is reflected back you you as every kind of threat.

In the media-termed ‘Brexit’ as purveyed in public speech and idea – is little if any of the basis of systematic Corporate capture of governance and society recognised or openly addressed – or allowed to be addressed. Sovereignty of Will – which is our highest human awareness of alignment in truth, is associated by smear with hateful xenophobia and racism. Appeals for sanity and security are associated with corporately drafted and enacted laws and regulations that claim the intent of ‘care and protection’ while always increasing dependency on the state – that presents a face of holding order, for the conditions of farming human beings in the frame of the mind-capture – backed up with the self-censoring of those captured upon their fellows and themself as well as the power of the state. A greater evil indeed!

Against such a ‘breakdown’ of an old outworn paradigm, is ‘too big to fail’ for ANY aspect of a corrupted system that – if corrected, would bring down the whole.

If global domination is by design – as the broad spectrum dominance that systematically works us against ourself and each other then it exceeds the human mind of doubt and division by an intent of such discipline as to work through the generations and across and within all areas of human influence. Rather than give power to such an anti-life principality, I look at where our own guilt, fear and negatively defined sense of self and other, OPEN to and align in destructive intent under the guise of a self-gratifying illusion.

Illusions of self inflation, and illusions of protection from the ‘loss’ of such a status work the ‘mark’. And indeed the market. The redeeming of power is in re-aligning within true cause by disinvestment from false-flagged ‘causal’ associations.

Freedom to live and grow our lives without coercion?
Protection against illegitimate violations of such freedom?

No state of regulatory ‘incentives’ can deliver more than a limited and limiting illusion of freedom – within the trammels of its dictate, and as the violator OF freedom can never recognize legitimacy of challenge to its dictate.

In a world of slaves – who can recognize their freedom but sees not – by ‘seeing’ something else.

BigB
BigB

“Politics is the entertainment branch of the Military Industrial Complex” Frank Zappa

Semantics matter. There is what is said (the locutionary act): and there is what is not said (the illocutionary act). There is even that which is not said, and not even implied. Then there is what is done regardless (the unspoken perlocutionary act) Brexit is a lie on the last two counts: that which is not spoken, written, or even implied (except very obliquely) is ‘EU Military Unification’.

This has been referred to as an ‘EU Army’, and various other euphemisms, such as ‘aggregation’. David Elliss has just made the salient point: “if it has no name, no terminology, there can be no dissent or action taken against it” (my phrasing).

The most crucial element of Brexit, the surrender of our military, followed by our military procurement, followed by our taxation, to a supra-sovereign Brussels has been mendaciously left out of the analysis. We are being kept in the dark by the MIC and banking fraternity (the Perle Office that has Treason May on puppet strings). No one can talk about it, because it has no name. If it became public, it would affect the calculus of both Leave and Remain. There was a leak (search for ‘KitKat Tapes’ released to the Sun) but nothing came of it. The whole thing was laid out in Cameron’s ‘Best of Both Worlds’ document: our military, including its nuclear capability, are being ceded to the banks and Brussels as the price of Brexit. The Northern Ireland border ‘backstop’ has fuck all to do with it.

I can’t claim we are being lied to: the conspiratorialdeceit and level of planned deviousness is much greater than that. Any scant remaining vestige of democracy (including that world heritage bastion of democracy – Parliament itself (/sarc)) is being consciously averted. By whom, other than a faceless unaccountable bureaucracy, it is not clear. Forget Brexit, this should constitute a crisis of legitimation in the entire entitled administration of rule. But that cannot be triggered by a nameless trigger. “EU military unification: what EU military unification?” We are being played for fools. Our politicians are jokers and knaves, all of them. All the issues and ‘red lines’ that have been thrown up are but sand in the face of the Demos. We do not matter. If it was not for the UK Column, the very few who have become aware of this calculus of deceit would never have known. Just like the rest of the country.

I do not know about anyone else, but I want our country back from the nameless deceivers who have stolen it …silently, whilst in plain view. And not just a tick box input once every five years or so. The very least would be a new Chartist democracy of inclusive representation. With every major institution of state in democratic public control (especially ‘the purse’ of credit issuance). Most especially the media and ideo-cultural information service being a public broadcast service …the very antithesis of the current BBC; providing unbiased information to inform the demos. That would be a start; not a socialist teleology …a transition on the way to humanity.

[UK Column did a detailed analysis of what was said, and what was not said, and what will likely be done about Brexit ‘Withdrawal’ (a sort of Catholic withdrawal without withdrawing? Either way, we’re f*$£*d). The archived version will be available later. I encourage every one to watch it.]

BigB
BigB

No excuses: here’s the archived version. It’s pretty much the whole show devoted to the topics I raised:

https://www.ukcolumn.org/ukcolumn-news/uk-column-news-16th-november-2018

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

The option that is not listed is the one that is most likely – a soft coup in parliament – to deprive us of a general election to elect a government with a sufficient majority and clear mandate to implement a manifesto that we vote for.

It is not just about Brexit.

Standby for a ‘crisis’ coalition government as the tory right splits off. The Labour right splits off and joins the tory rump for a grand centrist doctrine supported by all the live PM’s neocon banker muppets- Major through to May trumpeted in and supported by their MSM stormtroopers.

I shall be preparing to take to the streets and march on Parliament and Whitehall.

Btw, Looks if a trolley bus has pulled into O-G today – must be getting the attebtion of the new Atlantic Council type Cyberthought police.

Baron
Baron

There’s only one way of leaving that can ensure full control over our borders, law making and the judiciary, the key prerogatives of a sovereign country, it’s leaving without a deal.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

You are right – we need to become as sovereign as North Korea.

We don’t need International Laws and regulations to tell us how to coexist on this planet. We have our own air and rain, we are going to stick a big glass bowl over it and not let any foreign country or superstate have any of it.

👹

Frankly Speaking
Frankly Speaking

Sorry but that’s delusional nonsense. Slapping automatic WTO tariffs on all imports and exports will decimate our feeble economy, aside from business in chaos and gummed up ports both sides of the Channel.

The EU is not perfect by any means but for the vast majority of Europeans they are better off in it than out (the Eurozone is a separate discussion).

The EU’s success and standing up to US corporations is the very reason that the neoliberals are hellbent on breaking it apart and the reason for Brexit.

Estaugh
Estaugh

From Heath to May, High Treason all the way

wardropper
wardropper

And if we still haven’t found a way of stopping it, we’re in for a pretty horrendous 21st Century.

davemass
davemass

They were never going to let it happen- too many snouts in troughs-
The UK govt. have allowed the EU to bully them, when they sell more to us than we to them!
German car makers the worst affected, plus Irish farmers, etc.
And May Kow-Tows to them!
Even the Chinese stood up eventually…
I voted Leave for those worst affected by a free movement of people- Marx’s dictum that Capitalism needs a pool of
surplus labour is so true. I had a ‘safe’ ‘job for life’ in electronics, many don’t.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

You voted leave not because of your persona experience and knowledge but because you thought someone somewhere was ‘worse affected by free movement’ ?

You need to revisit that dog-whistle you reacted to and ask who told you? How? When?

Then you will know Why.

Did you see any of the BILLION facebook ads?