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No More Bullshit: Jimmy Breslin and Pete Hamill

Edward Curtin

Jimmy Breslin and Peter Hamill

Growing up Irish-Catholic in the Bronx in the 1960s, I was an avid reader of the powerful columns of Jimmy Breslin and Pete Hamill in the New York newspapers. These guys were extraordinary wordsmiths. They would grab you by the collar and drag you into the places and faces of those they wrote about. Passion infused their reports. They were never boring. They made you laugh and cry as they transported you into the lives of real people. You knew they had actually gone out into the streets of the city and talked to people. All kinds of people: poor, rich, black, white, Puerto Rican, high-rollers, low-lifes, politicians, athletes, mobsters – they ran the gamut.

You could sense they loved their work, that it enlivened them as it enlivened you the reader. Their words sung and crackled and breathed across the page. They left you always wanting more, wondering sometimes how true it all was, so captivating was their storytelling abilities. They cut through abstractions to connect individuals to major events such as the Vietnam War, the assassinations of President Kennedy and his brother Robert, the Central Park jogger case, Aids, among others. They were spokesmen for the underdogs, the abused, the confused, and the bereft, and relentlessly attacked the abuses and hypocrisies of the powerful.

They became celebrities as a result of their writing. Breslin ran for New York City Council President along with Norman Mailer for Mayor with the slogan “No More Bullshit,” did beer and cereal commercials, and Hamill dated Jacqueline Kennedy and Shirley McLaine. Coming out of poor and struggling Irish-Catholic families in Queens and Brooklyn respectively, they became acclaimed in NYC and the country as celebrity reporters. As a result, they were befriended by the rich and powerful with whom they hobnobbed.

HBO has recently released a fascinating documentary about the pair: Breslin and Hamill. It brings them back in all their gritty glory to the days when New York was another city, a city of newspapers and typewriters and young passion still hopeful that despite the problems and national tragedies, there were still fighters who would bang out a message of hope and defiance in the mainstream press. It was a time before money and propaganda devoured journalism and a deadly pall descended on the country as the economic elites expanded their obscene control over people’s lives and the media.

So it is also fitting that this documentary feels like an Irish wake with two old wheelchair-bound men musing on the past and all that has been lost and what approaching death has in store for them and all they love. While not a word is spoken about the Catholic faith of their childhoods with its death-defying consolation, it sits between them like a skeleton. We watch and listen to two men, once big in all ways, talk about the old days as they shrink before our eyes. I was reminded of the title of a novel Breslin wrote long ago: World Without End, Amen, a title taken directly from a well-known Catholic prayer. Endings, the past receding, a lost world, aching hearts, and the unspoken yearning for more life.

Hamill, especially, wrote columns that were beautifully elegiac, and his words in this documentary also sound that sense despite his efforts to remain hopeful. The film is a nostalgic trip down memory lane. Breslin, who has since died, tries hard to express the bravado that was his hallmark in his halcyon days, but a deep sadness and bewilderment seeps through his face, the mask of indomitability that once served him well gone in the end.

So while young people need to know about these two old-school reporters and their great work in this age of insipidity and pseudo-objectivity, this film is probably not a good introduction. Their writing would serve this purpose better.

This documentary is appearing at an interesting time when a large group of prominent Americans, including Robert Kennedy, Jr. and his sister Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, are calling for new investigations into the assassinations of the 1960s, murders that Breslin and Hamill covered and wrote about. Both men were in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in 1968. They were friends of the senator, and it was Hamill who wrote to RFK and helped convince him to run.

Breslin was in the Audubon Ballroom when Malcolm X was assassinated. He wrote an iconic and highly original article about the JFK assassination. Hamill wrote a hard-hitting piece about RFK’s murder, describing Sirhan Sirhan quite harshly, while presuming his guilt. They covered and wrote about all the assassinations of that era. Breslin also wrote a famous piece about John Lennon’s murder. They wrote these articles quickly, in the heat of the moment, on deadline.

But they did not question the official versions of these assassinations. Not then, nor in the fifty plus years since. Nor in this documentary. In fact, in the film Hamill talks about five shots being fired at RFK from the front by Sirhan Sirhan who was standing there. Breslin utters not a word. Yet it is well known that RFK was shot from the rear at point blank range and that no bullets hit him from the front. The official autopsy confirmed this. Robert Kennedy, Jr. asserts that his father was not shot by Sirhan but by a second gunmen. It’s as though Hamill is stuck in time and his personal memories of the event; as though he were too close to things and never stepped back and studied the evidence that has emerged.

Why, only he could say.

Perhaps both men were too close to the events and the people they covered. Yes, their words always took you to the scene and made you feel the passion of it all, the shock, the drama, the tragedy, the pain, the confusion, and all that was irretrievably lost in murders that changed this country forever, killings that haunt the present in incalculable ways. Jimmy and Pete made us feel the deep pain and shock of being overwhelmed with grief. They were masters of this art.

But the view from the street is not that of history. Deadlines are one thing; analysis and research another. Breslin and Hamill wrote for the moment, but they have lived a half century after those moments, decades during which the evidence for these crimes has accumulated to indict powerful forces in the U.S. government. No doubt this evidence came to their attention, but they have chosen to ignore it, whatever their reasons. Why these champions of the afflicted have disregarded this evidence is perplexing. As one who greatly admires their work, I am disappointed by this failure.

Street journalism has its limitations. It needs to be placed in a larger context. Our world is indeed without end and the heat of the moment needs the coolness of time. The bird that dives to the ground to seize a crumb of bread returns to the treetop to survey the larger scene. Breslin and Hamill stuck to the ground where the bread lay.

At one point in Breslin and Hamill, the two good friends talk about how well they were taught to write by the nuns in their Catholic grammar schools. “Subject, verb, object, that was the story of the whole thing,” says Breslin. Hamill replies, “Concrete nouns, active verbs.” “It was pretty good teaching,” adds Breslin. And although neither went to college (probably a saving grace), they learned those lessons well and gifted us with so much gritty and beautiful writing and reporting.

Yet like the nuns who taught them, they had their limitations, and what was written once was not revisited and updated. In a strange, very old-school Catholic sense, it was the eternal truth, rock solid, and not to be questioned. Unspeakable and anathema: the real killers of the Kennedys and the others. The attacks of September 11, 2001 as well.

When my mother was very old, she published her only piece of writing. It was very Breslin and Hamill-like and was published in a Catholic magazine. She wrote how, when she was a young girl and the streets of New York were filled with horse drawn wagons, the nuns in her grammar school chose her to leave school before lunch and go to a neighboring bakery to buy rolls for their lunch. It was considered a big honor and she was happy to get out of school for the walk to the bakery she chose a few streets away. She got the rolls and was walking back with them when some boys jostled her and all the rolls fell into the street, rolling through horse shit. She panicked, but picked up the rolls and cleaned them off.

Shaking with fear, she then brought them to the convent and handed them to a nun. After lunch, she was called to the front of the room by her teacher, the nun who had chosen her to buy them. She felt like she would faint with fear. The nun sternly looked at her. “Where did buy those rolls?” she asked. In a halting voice she told her the name of the bakery. The sister said, “They were delicious. We must always shop in that bakery.”

Of course the magazine wouldn’t publish the words “horse shit.” The editor found a nice way to avoid the truth and eliminate horse shit. And the nuns were happy.

Yet bullshit seems much harder to erase, despite slogans and careful editors, or perhaps because of them. Sometimes silence is the real bullshit, and how do you eliminate that.

Edward Curtin teaches sociology at Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. His writing on varied topics has appeared widely over many years. He writes as a public intellectual for the general public, not as a specialist for a narrow readership. He believes a non-committal sociology is an impossibility and therefore sees all his work as an effort to enhance human freedom through understanding. His website is edwardcurtin.com

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Edward Curtin teaches sociology at Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. His writing on varied topics has appeared widely over many years. He writes as a public intellectual for the general public, not as a specialist for a narrow readership. He believes a non-committal sociology is an impossibility and therefore sees all his work as an effort to enhance human freedom through understanding. His website is edwardcurtin.com

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London John
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London John

It might have been worth mentioning that Jimmy Breslin’s 1982 novel Forsaking all others described exactly the situation – the Irish-American Democratic machine dominating all the political jobs in a part of NYC populated mainly by people of color – that AOC’s defeat of 10-term incumbent Joe Crowley in 2018 finally put an end to in the Bronx. I bet JB didn’t think it would last another 36 years.

Hugh O'Neill
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Hugh O'Neill

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/02/09/cia-may-have-used-contractor-who-inspired-mission-impossible-kill-rfk-new-book-alleges/?utm_term=.38208257713e The above link is to Tom Jackman writing in the Washington Post, his review of Lisa Pease’s “A lie too big to fail”. It is uncanny that the Wapo, owned by Bezos linked to CIA could be the harbinger of truth? The remarkable thing is the Establishment admission of the assassinations of RFK. Why RFK died and why it matters, is still urgent, as is the recent petition to re-open the investigation. Though neither Pilger (nor BigB) believe in the Camelot myths, there had to be a reason for RFK’s blatant execution. I have not gone to the primary… Read more »

milosevic
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milosevic

The remarkable thing is the Establishment admission of the assassinations of RFK. Why RFK died and why it matters, is still urgent, as is the recent petition to re-open the investigation. Though neither Pilger (nor BigB) believe in the Camelot myths, there had to be a reason for RFK’s blatant execution.

I predict that the conclusion of any new investigation will be that Donald Trump did it, acting on the orders of the Russian government. When the explosive demolition of WTC-7 can no longer be concealed, the verdict will be the same.

Hugh O'Neill
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Hugh O'Neill

“Improving upon the record! ” – I was in fact thinking of E. Howard Hunt and I found this reference to his archival imagination in Wikipedia: “Hunt’s White House duties included assassinations-related disinformation. In September 1971, Hunt forged and offered to a Life magazine reporter two top-secret U.S. State Department cables designed to prove that President Kennedy had personally and specifically ordered the assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem and his brother, Ngô Đình Nhu.[27] Hunt told the Senate Watergate Committee in 1973 that he had fabricated the cables to show a link between President Kennedy and the assassination of Diem,… Read more »

BigB
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BigB

I must say, you really are clutching at strawmen. E Howard Hunt: a man so disacquainted with the truth, and so skilled in the art of deception, no one could really ever trust a word he said. Do you even know who Diem and the Nhu’s were? Or what their nepotistic Catholic dictatorship meant for the people of South Vietnam? Death squads, religous and ethnic cleansing, forced collectivisation, chemical warfare, etc. For the record, JFK did not order the coup …but neither did he rescind the telegram. He was desolate when his puppet dictator was killed …which was against his… Read more »

Hugh O'Neill
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Hugh O'Neill

BigB. I don’t think I said that Pilger lied, though I did query his hesitance to ask the next question? Can you directly answer the simple question: why kill RFK?

BigB
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BigB

Other than the double murder theory: I do not know. And I do not care, not any more. What I care about is that the epistemologically ungrounded virtual history making draws attention to two men: and obfuscates their war crimes. The confabulated speculation becomes a smokscreen, one that no Camelotian will look beyond. In order to maintain their precious story. You manage to wriggle out of any factual conversation by confabulating stories about why they were special. Tell that to the people of South Vietnam. I want to point out that no one has offered a single fact to discount… Read more »

Hugh O’Neill
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Hugh O’Neill

BigB. Your frustration is palpable and I too would like to know the truth. I likewise agree with you that the untimely deaths of a few US politicians is as naught compared to the killing, maiming and torture inflicted on millions of SE Asians. Instead of fighting each other, can we find some common ground of agreement? Surely we can agree that MLK was a genuine man of peace? Yet he was assassinated in a very similar operation to the Kennedys I.e. the unwitting patsy, cast as a lone nut. Can we not agree that his death was political, because… Read more »

John Ervin
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John Ervin

This excerpt of a conversation below, related by Dr. Norman Cousins, of his talk with JFK, is a flat out, frank, and flagrant refutation of so much of what we have seen posted here, of “re-revisionist” counter-conspiracy theories about the premise of “JFK and the Unspeakable” being so much non-factual Camelotian nostalgia, subscribed to and propagated by Douglass, and V. Salandria, Gaeton Fonzi, Oliver Stone, and so many others of the more creditable, and non-incredible, conspiracy realist community. It is well worthy an addition to this dialogue here, to read Cousins book about this: “The Improbable Triumvirate” which recounts the… Read more »

BigB
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BigB

Yes Hugh, there is plenty of common ground for agreement. And robust dialogue is not fighting, and anyway – I’m a big softee really. In general: the assassinations – or Deep State events as Peter Dale Scott christened them – were incredibly significant …and linked. The Continuity Of Government (COG) planning is a common thread: as are some of the recurrent personnel – such as your man, E Howard Hunt (Cuba, Dallas and Watergate). Of course they were political. There might have been a common MO: but I doubt there was a common reason. The simplistic “went against the MIC”… Read more »

milosevic
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milosevic

Perhaps the deep state has improved the record in other ways, as well?

If JFK’s brain could vanish from the national archives, maybe other things have too, or various original papers have been substituted by improved versions.

The alternative would be to believe that an apparatus which was capable of assassinating an elected president, would never dare to fabricate paper records. Why would that be, because of their principled commitment to historical truth?

John Ervin
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John Ervin

“A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.”

–Saul Bellow

(Sounds like a definition of someone’s favorite agency, what Norman Mailer called “The Mind of America”)

zach
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zach

Wow, I like the sound of this pair. Difficult to imagine guys of their background being given a similar platform and such latitude today.

George cornell
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George cornell

BigB, I like and admire Pilger. I am confident I would like you too. You are knowledgeable and uncompromising. But you are preaching to the choir about Pilger in general. This thread and my comments were specifically about Pilger’s claims about Viet Nam and about you quoting them. Kennedy was not responsible for 2M deaths, he stated very clearly he was going to pull out, a month before he died, and that the Vietnamese were going to have to win by themselves. And he had been exposed to the same pressure and counsel that led Eisenhower to send military advisors… Read more »

BigB
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BigB

George I’m sure too that we would get on fine over a pint, and could put the world to rights in a few short hours. Lack of agreement just makes for more lively debate, no malice intended. In various publications, John Pilger has deconstructed the entire Vietnam War narrative – from 1945, through Dien Bien Phu, through JFK, to the end. Ho Chi Minh wasn’t truly a communist (nor were the PVA) – that was a propaganda designation; North and South Vietnam were American propaganda structures too; the re-unification elections were cancelled by Diem/Dulles; etc. No one person started the… Read more »

BigB
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BigB

In reply to Ed Curtin: The question is of truth – only whose truth. Humanities or the Empire’s? The specific charge is the John Pilger’s quote (I posted) are “are factually wrong, emphatically wrong”. Are they? If so, from whose POV? The well known fact that Sirhan Sirhan did not kill RFK bears no relevance to the veracity (or not) of Pilger’s claims – and so is misleading. The updated ‘truth’ is in Douglass and Talbot et al. It’s also in the primary record, which I have repeatedly referenced – contra Douglass (I don’t know Talbot, but I am unlikely… Read more »

milosevic
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milosevic

How about, JFK (never mind his brother) thought that nuclear war with the Soviet Union was probably a bad idea, whereas the Pentagon psychopaths thought that they could “win” it?

BigB
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BigB

How about we check the primary record, and stop fantasising about what people may or may not have thought? The ExComm meetings during the CMC were recorded and are available for reference. Sheldon M Stern has written three books on the topic. The whole point is that the intelligence was so poor, they did not know what they risked. The neat humanity versus insanity – RFK and JFK versus the “Unspeakable” – is a contrite narrative fiction. RFK even made a list of hawks v doves …but excluded himself as the chief hawk. There was no clear demarcation and a… Read more »

John Ervin
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John Ervin

Here’s some primary record, for you. A link to a transcript of the speech Fidel Castro gave Saturday, November 23, 1963: while Lee Harvey Oswald was still a (dead) man walking the earth, or at least a Dallas city prison corridor.

Castro knew within hours what we are really still “just” finding out, mostly since the new millennium, and he spells it out in detail: that JFK and Oswald were killed by “Nazi” interests here.

He removes all the CYA of CIA in minutes, laid bare in the Cuban sun.

An astounding document. Speaks volumes about where we are today:

https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/HWNAU/appendixII.html

vexarb
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vexarb

@John Ervin. This extract from your Link shows Castro in line with BigB’s theory of COG: removing a powerful POTU$A so as to clear the deck for a power struggle between lower-echelon sharks in the U$ regime. A long way from that attempt to synthesize a myth, a romantic idyll a la Geoffrey de Monmouth, about mystical King John F. Arthur in Camelot for Peace.

Rhys Jaggar
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Rhys Jaggar

And now the BULLSHIT is Quentin Somerville, BBC Middle East Correspondent, standing accused by Beirut-based Riam Dalati, of organising fake footage in Douma to justify military action in Syria (called for subsequently by a salivating Guardian Nobhead, Simon Tisdall). Story on rt.com ….. To say that Somerville and Tisdall can never be journalists again if this story is true completely fails to put the appropriate punishments in hand. The entire senior Editorial teams at the BBC and the Guardian are guilty of criminal dereliction of duty and that dereliction will have been wilful, as a bit of Pompeo-style torture will… Read more »

Michael Leigh
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Michael Leigh

It would appear that France is only Nation with a wide-spread movement to clean out ” the Augean
Stables “. A widespread movement contra to France’s undemocratic political ruling establishment.

I suggest that those who are sincerely interested in threat of real democracy. any time soon just watch
the online video statement : ” 12 minutes to understand the yellow jackets movement in France “.

Simply browse the aforementioned, in your address bar and enter, if you have twelve minutes to be enlightened and also speak the english language, just press the enter key on your keyboard.

milosevic
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milosevic

DunGroanin
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DunGroanin

Rhys, Frank Field? Ffs. Your rant was good till you put him in that list – and Fisk has always been a curates egg. The real and only answer to the msm conspirators and extrajudiciality of the aristos, is the completion and full implementation of the Leveson Inquiry. In fact I’d be happy to have that Judge deploy justice upon the deepshits that have plagued us for many decades and nullified legal expertise and independence. Including firing and trying and imprisoning judges – who have conspired to pervert natural justice – like the lady who ruled on Assange, etc. Meanwhile,… Read more »

milosevic
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milosevic
Gezzah Potts
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Gezzah Potts

Another era, gone forever. Thanks Edward. I too, had an Irish Catholic upbringing in New Zealand, and had the (mis)fortune to attend a Catholic Convent school. The fear those nuns instilled in us kids, something I still remember vividly. The World has changed radically, the breakdown of society, an increasing dystopia, ever increasing homelessness and poverty in the West, increasing numbers begging in the streets while a tiny minority wallow in obscene levels of wealth and luxury. And the media? What they have become? Stenographers for, and protectors of power and the status quo. There are only a handful of… Read more »

eddie
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eddie

Breslin had the Gift, and couldn’t write an un-interesting New York City article if he tried. The national scene wasn’t his forte, nor was JFK .
From that now lost generation of brilliant localized American journalism, I would include Chicago’s Mike Royko & Studs Terkel, Texas’ Molly Ivins, perhaps San Francisco’s Herb Caen in lite-weight mode..
In today’s corporate-police-state america, factual quality journalism is no longer required, and the Sy Hersch’s and John Pilgers are exiled to obscurity.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

Only in a society which has effectively abandoned objective reality, in favour of the delusional fantasy world promoted by official propaganda, could something like this go unacknowledged, for decades:

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Or THIS:

https://www.amazon.com/DOPPELGANGER-Legend-Lee-Harvey-Oswald/dp/1530364981

Published only a year or so, ago. It sure explains the mysteries of 6th story window and starkly conflicting eye witnesses. “Legend” SpySpeak for cover.

I have pictures from another book of both dressed alike in Dallas City Jail with Chief Jesse Curry, but in different places there. Makes sense to have two, for “The Big Event”.

Hugh O'Neill
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Hugh O'Neill

Whoops! The above screen shot of a monkey with a hammer has replaced a link to the WTC7 collapse. How odd…

TroutMaskReplica
Reader
TroutMaskReplica

Controlled demolition does not rule out the hand of AlQaeda as they have previous for this in their attempt at blowing up the WTC in the 1990s

vexarb
Reader
vexarb

Trout, your Mask is slipping.

flaxgirl
Reader

Controlled demolition DOES rule out the hand of Al-Qaeda. As Graeme MacQueen says, “There is no room in the official story for controlled demolition.” CD does not fit the official story in any shape or form. CD could only have brought down those three massive skyscrapers (Al-Qaeda – are you kidding?) by a completely inside arrangement whoever the actually demolition crews were and, if under the auspices of insiders then who exactly brought them down is not really very relevant is it? Insiders were the main culprits.

mark
Reader
mark

That was a silly little van bomb that cost a few hundred dollars and caused a handful of casualties. It was so amateurish that one of the 3 involved got caught trying to get the deposit back from that famous Dutchman, Hertz van Rental. That is about the limit of any genuine terrorist attack.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

It certainly doesn’t, since al-Qaeda is actually the CIA.

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

As Lori Price of http://www.legitgov.org has dubbed it for many years:

Al-CIAduh

(An excellent news feed for all news uncovered or suppressed.)

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

If a billion monkeys with a billion hammers attacked the steel frame of the WTC towers for a billion years, they might succeed in producing something like the 9/11 event.

Red Allover
Reader
Red Allover

Fine article, and a point well made about the limits of street journalism, that lost art. However I do recall reading a column of Pete Hamill wherein he stated that Frank Sinatra, when Hamill asked him about the JFK murder, replied that if he told Hamill everything he knew about the assassination that he, Sinatra, would get killed . . .

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Sinatra knew Sam Giancana well, and that Capo di Capos, the head Wiseguy who took over the Chicago “Outfit” for Al Capone, was murdered, apparently by someone he knew well, the day before he was to testify in Washington about what he knew of Mob connections to the CIA. Some of his Mob buddies said that he had told him in the days before he was hit, something like, “They just don’t get it in D.C. The Mob and the CIA are different sides of the same coin.” I repeated those “famous last words” to Dave Emory when I met… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

The CIA: A Nest of Vipers It is important to emphasize two points again: The real CIA permeates all branches and departments of the federal government, and is far larger than the agency described “on the books”, and furthermore it is not exclusively a government agency at all, but is at least equally a tool of private, unseen powers. These facts mean that all agencies of the federal government conduct illegal covert operations, and often contract with non-governmental criminal organizations to carry out their schemes, under the direction of their controllers in the CIA. But the situation is actually even… Read more »

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

“Couldn’t have said it better, m’self,” my mensch. Excellent followup, shining links. Thanks for expanding on this, very needful to students and even some “scholars”. I have seen a lot of this, but great gratitude for increase of links. And clearly, there IS that much more to all this. And more. The wondrous Koch crime partners, OOPS, brothers have their own intel agency now, and THEMIS, etc. Not only are the bad guys developing tech to mind controls, but, maybe good news, there are foreign interests and adversaries trying to mind control them with all kinds of plots and gizmos.… Read more »

Same cabal everywhere
Reader
Same cabal everywhere

<>

The writer is describing the political process in the US. However, don’t you find it is spot on description for the majority of Western countries as well??

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Yes, but most of it was exported by fascist interests in the US. Wall Street and that nest of transnational pirates. And not any 1 of the Euro nation states, or 2 or 3 combined, come close to even a distant second. Germany was civilized by the “aversion therapy” of Dresden Fire Bombing, and lost a lot of Hun and Goth genes in the flames of all that. Hopefully we cowboys will be purified with less refining fire, but the forecast seems for more of the same…. At the end of “Smiley’s People” by former MI6 agent John le Carré,… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

As has been abundantly clear for some time now, “the majority of Western countries” are merely vassal states of the Anglo-Zionist Empire. It stands to reason that their intelligence agencies, secret police, and deep-state gangsters, assassins, and death squads, would be merely vassals of the CIA and the Mossad.

bevin
Reader
bevin

” John F Kennedy referred incessantly to “America’s mission in the world” even while affirming it with a secret invasion of Vietnam that caused the deaths of more than two million people. ” Is that what you are calling ” outrageous hyperbole which should cause anyone to question anything Pilger says.”? It seems unexceptionable to me. There is no doubt that Kennedy, badly advised and disgracefully insouciant, did authorise the significant military escalations that, fairly directly, led to the deaths of at least two million people. Harold Wilson and LBJ did something similar in Indonesia, leading to the deaths of… Read more »

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

The comment you reply to is compleat steer manure. It’s well documented that JFK had advised in NSAM 263 a month before his murder that he was pulling out of Viet Nam. The CIA has created so many bogus back stories on JFK that most folks are left with mere optical illusions. Get the facts in James Douglass’ landmark 30 years research, “JFK and the Unspeakable”. Or Martin Schotz’ many appendices of documents, such as the trove of letters between Kruschev and Kennedy to broker peace, with Pope John XXIII backchannels, privately. Scintillating read that changes the whole game of… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
BigB
Reader
BigB

More BS. On the Schitz version – RFK went to Dobrynin and told him “remove the missiles, or we will remove the for you”. His specific message was “there could be no quid pro quo”. The Kennedy regime was ready to invade. The evidence for the truth of this is in the ExComm tapes …corroborated by the memo RFK wrote to Rusk on the 30th.If it is online, it’ll be in the JFK Library. Otherwise, you’ll have to buy the book.

BigB
Reader
BigB

[RFK] I said that he had better understand the situation and he had better communicate that understanding to Mr. Khrushchev. Mr. Khrushchev and he had misled us. The Soviet Union had secretly established missile bases in Cuba while at the same time proclaiming, privately and publicly, that this would never be done. I said those missile bases had to go and they had to go right away. We had to have a commitment by at least tomorrow that those bases would be removed. This was not an ultimatum, I said, but just a statement of fact. He should understand that… Read more »

BigB
Reader
BigB

Touche, John

Your Camelotian “steer manure” doesn’t pass the sniff test. Did you ever bother to read NSAM 263? He was leaving around 15,000 ‘advisers’ in situ until after the election. To toast marshmallows and singalong rousing hymns around the campfire, no doubt? Roast ‘communist sympathiser’ Vietnamese would be closer to the truth. The retelling that makes this acceptable are the very myths and fables of Empire we have inherited today. Propagate them if you wish …no CIA required.

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Pleeez. Don’t make me rebut that. I’d get writer’s cramp or keystroke burn. Milosevic and others have posted the links where there is a plethora of ample refutation. People need to “fish” out the millions of red herrings, such as your very skewed treatment of NSAM 263, overturned barely a month later by LBJ’s NSAM 273, which says everything needed. Here. Or then. Ethel Kennedy finally felt she could go to Cuba a few years ago and told Fidel face to face something like, “I was in the White House every day, and my husband and his brother never spoke… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic
John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

How about this link with free online version of Schotz book, which has Castro speech of Saturday November 23, 1963, hours after the assassination ?

https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/HWNAU/

And a whole lot more, the astounding letters between JFK and Kruschev.

The amazing usefulness of Castro’s speech is he knew everything about LH Oswald to make his case, and he deeply understood the whole event.

A long and meticulous speech about OSWALD, WHILE OSWALD WAS STILL WALKING THE EARTH!

Well, a dead man walking.

Hours to live.

flaxgirl
Reader

I find your comment very interesting, John. I’ve read virtually nothing about JFK so when I read the comments in OffG for and against him I don’t know what to believe but your comment supports what my instincts tell me: that his enemies would push propaganda to show he is as morally bankrupt as they are. I guess I’ll never know unless I do my own research … and even then???

Michael Leigh
Reader
Michael Leigh

BEVIN’s claims about the British and USA constitutions do not enable either of the two National entities to go to war without the ‘ fig leaf of cover ‘ from a the lower elected governmental assemblies. Well to start with the British as a monarchy and it does not have a constitution! Sinmilarly, the USA is apparently steadfast in its claims to be a fully-fledged democracity, but it still evidences the ability of it so-called democratic leaders, to undertake; International rape and plunder in war, without any initatale permission from any of its constituent assemblies – long after nations have… Read more »

bevin
Reader
bevin

The Stuarts have left the country. Largely because they took your view of the Constitution.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

George cornell
Reader
George cornell

Having been a marcher against the Viet Nam invasion/war, I took a keen interest in the background and rationale. This was not easy to come by in the zeitgeist of the sixties. The Domino Theory and general anti-communist paranoia were the warp and woof of public engagement with foreign policy but neither came from Kennedy. He authorized 16,000 ‘military advisors’ to go into Nam but made clear in public interviews that this was a battle that the Vietnamese would have to win themselves. Invasion seems an exaggeration. Escalation came after Kennedy’s assassination and Johnson’s role , surely in one, possibly… Read more »

vexarb
Reader
vexarb

@Cornell: “The Domino Theory and general anti-communist paranoia were the warp and woof of public engagement with foreign policy but neither came from Kennedy.”

So what was the use of Kennedy?

George cornell
Reader
George cornell

Here is a timeline for Viet Nam. Pilger could just as rationally blamed Eisenhower as introducing the first American advisors to Nam in the 50’s.
http://mahargpress.com/wounded/additional-material/timeline-of-vietnamconflict/

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Of all the writers on this subject -the one Curtin homes in on at the end, the strange amnesia of Breslin and Hamill about what really happened in assassinations that, amazingly, Breslin and Hamill were rubbing elbows with the victims- no one has diagnosed this condition (modern national epidemic) more deeply and completely than the psychiatrist and writer E. Martin Schotz, below. (His pupil James Douglass has dedicated the other really great work on this problem, to Schotz: “JFK and the Unspeakable”.) https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/FalseMystery/COPA1998EMS.html ******* I should have some affinity with this subject myself: my father was attorney to the 33rd… Read more »

Gezzah Potts
Reader
Gezzah Potts

John Erwin: I second DunGroanin. Brilliant comment. There is an obvious reason people have ‘amnesia’ if they know too much. Its about continuing to wake up the next day. The whole thing is one truly evil web.

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Well, if my own narrative can connect some more dots into this massive story arc, I’ve not fought in vain. I post this screed because these are real facts from a witness of much historic surrealism, such as he is. I can submit bona fides for all this, so these are not tall tales out of Texas, not any 1 of them fictitious. And the CIA finds me enough of a bother that they finally got me shut down for articles at one website that gets 100 million hits a month, nearly. What really gets them going, BIG TIME, is… Read more »

Gezzah Potts
Reader
Gezzah Potts

John Ervin: John – may I humbly suggest you could submit a story for OffGuardian? When you said about mind control, immediately thought of Edward Bernays and Walter Lippmann. We are bombarded with marketing and advertising and propaganda, every hour of every day. And utterly enslaved to digital technology; our smartphones, our laptops. Fully distracted from what is happening all round us, oblivious to what is happening in places like Yemen, Venezuela, Palestine, Afghanistan, except for the small minority of us who are awake, and visit sites like OffGuardian or other alternative news sites. I say No also.

DunGroanin
Reader
DunGroanin

Wow. John Erwin.

That is Pynchon-esque!

Thanks. More please.

BigB
Reader
BigB

This is a rollicking nostalgia trip: only what relevance does it really have? It is also well known that there were at least thirteen shots fired in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel. So these guys were profoundly deaf as well as ‘deadline’ apologists for Empire? So what they elegiacally confirmed was the same old myths and fables of Empire: which they never revisited. I have long wondered what the American Empire did actually lose, if anything at all, with the Kennedy assassinations? Rather than muse, I will just quote John Pilger, who was also in the pantry that night.… Read more »

George cornell
Reader
George cornell

You have quoted Pilger and there are good objections to the key points you replicate in your post. They are in the posts below/above. Defend them if you can. Otherwise acknowledge the erroneous scurrilous nature of the Pilger excerpt you posted..I will ignore the rest of Pilger’s intemperate ill-considered anti-Kennedy rant, unless you wish to continue to replicate them.

Hugh O'Neill
Reader
Hugh O'Neill

To George Cornell. George, Pilger is a curious enigma. In an interview on Democracy Now on the 40th anniversary of RFK’s murder, he testified that shots were being fired after Sirhan had been disarmed: “There’s no question that there was another gunman, because one of the people who was hit, just grazed, was standing next to me, and that happened when Sirhan Sirhan had been wrestled to the ground. So that’s the interesting thing. There was another assassin or another several assassins. And then it was bedlam. And as you know, Kennedy died about twenty-four hours later.” But later in… Read more »

BigB
Reader
BigB

George and Hugh John Pilger is easy to defend, denigrating him does him and humanity a great disservice. He was there. He was a first hand witness. Not just in the pantry, on the frontline in Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia …even back home in Oz: on the frontline reporting the oppression and landgrabs against the First Nation Peoples who were custodians of the fucking land from before we even reached Europe – let alone set up a ‘civilisation’ there. He reported the death, maiming and damage the myths and confected fables of Empire cause. Belief in the Kennedy myth automatically renders… Read more »

Hugh O’Neill
Reader
Hugh O’Neill

Big B. I thank God for Pilger and his courage. However, he was indeed witness to the conspiracy to kill RFK. Incontrovertible proof os a state assassination is surely worthy of some investigation by both Pilger and you.

BigB
Reader
BigB

I answered that above. This thread was started with the charge that JP’s portrayal of the Kennedy’s was emphatically wrong …to which the murder of RFK is a deflection. In my first comment I said there were thirteen shots – or more. But this has nothing to do with the facts …particularly of the Vietnam War. The war was started secretly and two million people died. And it was JFK that started it, even though he inherited the situation. In 1961 he started to increase the American presence. What followed was ethnic cleansing, mass repression, forced collectivisation, etc. This turned… Read more »

George cornell
Reader
George cornell

The above was meant as a reply to BigB, not sure why it was filed here.

George Cornell
Reader
George Cornell

People go to funerals for lots of reasons. My last attendance was to be there for the widow of someone I did not admire. Kennedy’s reaction to the Lemnitzer mad dog Northwoods proposal was to flatly reject it and essentially fire Lemnitzer. It probably cost him his life. Saying Kennedy cost 2 million lives is the kind of outrageous hyperbole which should cause anyone to question anything Pilger says. I admire Pilger but his imprimatur should not be accepted uncritically, either.

crank
Reader
crank

What about the context of Israeli power and zionist conspirators? I have long wondered what the American Empire did actually lose, if anything at all, with the Kennedy assassinations? The question might be, what did the Israeli project gain from the Kennedy killings? JFK tried to stop Dimona. RFK tried to rein in AIPAC and organised crime, and was arguably set to re-open the investigation into Dallas. Johnson and Angleton were practically Israeli. Rubenstein, Lansky, Permindex etc. Sirhan was ‘a Palestinian terrorist’ – how strange ! Lots more besides. M Collins Piper is a read. https://www.unz.com/article/did-israel-kill-the-kennedies/ Fits together for me..… Read more »

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

The Kennedys were murdered by a high cabal operating since long ago within the Freemasons, not, as one of the official conspiracy theories goes, because they were after the secret societies… …but because at the higher echelons the Freemasons are after The Roman Catholic Church When Presidente Calles of Mexico about a century ago got a 100,000 people killed in the Cristero War putsch of priests, the Scottish Rite Freemasons in Mexico gave him a “medal of merit” for his “work against the Roman Catholic Church”. And why? Since their origins in the Knights Templar, the Freemasons have been pledged… Read more »

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Correction: “ANY blade will do”. I was thinking, as was Michael Parenti, of Julius Caesar and Brutus’ reasonable and valid Conspiracy Theory of “The Lone Bladesman”.

That social outcast and malcontent who stalked Caesar and killed him with a Single Stab.

Well, according to the Brutus Commission. I’ve got the report right here.

mark
Reader
mark

Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, Knights Templar etc. are just so much hogwash and a diversion from the very real Zionist complicity in JFK, 9/11, and so much else besides. Like the hasbara troll factories who will bang on endlessly about the Oil Companies, Saudi Arabia, UFOs, leprechauns or anything, just don’t mention Israel. Any old smokescreen will do, no matter how ludicrous.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, Knights Templar etc. are just so much hogwash and a diversion from the very real Zionist complicity in JFK, 9/11, and so much else besides.

Four Establishment Model of western politics

1 – Liberal Establishment (CIA and State Department)

2 – Conservative Establishment (CIA and Pentagon)

3 – Vatican-Paneuropa network (Opus Dei and Knights of Malta)

4 – Zionist Establishment (Israel and its worldwide communities and U.S. Lobby)

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Don’t get excited. Not a Freemason, then? I gave facts as an eyewitness in Hollyweird of the 1960s, with a Freemason father who founded the oldest law firm in Beverly Hills, ecjlaw.com He took the unique step of making me sit in the cold backyard in full view til past midnight, while PRS had their soirees at our Sherman Oaks home on Saturday nights in the 1960s and making sure the sliding glass doors were locked, so he always had me outside without an egress and in view. He never did that on ANY other occasion. And he had been… Read more »

mark
Reader
mark

Yes, blame the fairies, dude, blame the elves and pixies and freemasons, just don’t mention the Jews.

flaxgirl
Reader

Fascinating. What I don’t understand is why the Kennedys don’t call out who really assassinated their kin.

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Because they would, uh, get even more and more assassinated.

Douglass, in his great book on JFK, says at the end that Jackie and RFK found themselves in the odd position of turning to Russians for protection of some kind, after Jack was blasted.

That doesn’t seem odd at all, today. That sounds like SOP today, in Trumpland.

JFK JR. called it out, and they didn’t even start a search and rescue for his sea crashed plane for THIRTEEN hours. You can get really wet when you’re in the water, for 13 hours.

Exhibit A. The defense rests.

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Sirhan grew up in Pasadena in a Greek Orthodox CHRISTIAN family. You’d never know it by the intro to the piece on him at Wikipedia.

Though, they do happen to mention that he was transferred to his current pen on….

NOVEMBER 22, 2013…..

Golden Anniversary

It was interesting to read the official drivel that the Dept. of Corrections spokesman had to say, about the timing?!

COINCIDENCE OR CONSPIRACY?

WE REPORT, YOU DECIDE.

flaxgirl
Reader

I have to confess complete ignorance of RFK’s assassination but I’m guessing that Sirhan Sirhan was, effectively, an agent just like Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby and is not in jail although we’re told he is. What they seem to always do in their crimes regardless of whether they’re hoaxing us with fake terror where people aren’t killed or killing them for real in assassinations is provide giveaway signals. For example in the JFK assassination: — a $12 relic of WWII Mussolini’s armed forces, a Carcano, was allegedly the rifle chosen by Lee Harvey Oswald for his crackshot assassination.… Read more »

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

Very interesting and lively exam of some of the forensics, and it’s great to see you think on your own, beyond suggestions, and go more deeply into these mechanisms of our betrayed public trust than most. . Yes, you never know. But I believe there are some things that can be deduced from live footage, forensics, and other primary sources and so forth. Still, it’s great to see some1 in a spirit of science challenging the very contexts more deeply! It’s 4am here in LA. Too late to open up this can of worms, pardon the morbid Manly Palmer Hall… Read more »

flaxgirl
Reader

When a big event occurs which you suspect is a covert operation be very, very suspicious of the claim “live footage”. I think the impossibility of matching the photo to a still from the “live footage” indicates it was not live – or at least if it was live, Oswald was not shot as there is no evidence in the live footage that he was and if the footage was live the photo wasn’t candid. His shooting is just so very obviously staged and the whole hypnosis thing with Sirhan Sirhan just reeks of CIA elaborate story – they get… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

Much as the 9/11 organizers would not have trusted the success of the operation to the dubious flying skills of a bunch of deranged Wahabi fanatics, the function of MK-ULTRA patsies is to be seen firing a gun loaded with blank cartridges, while the target is eliminated by professional assassins. The RFK assassination is the most obvious example of this model; the Lennon assassination is likely another. (Ronald Reagan???) Oswald is a patsy, but not an MK-ULTRA patsy. MK-ULTRA patsies do not say to TV cameras, “I didn’t kill anybody. I’m just a patsy.” Perhaps it was because of this… Read more »

flaxgirl
Reader

Sorry, I misunderstood your question. I think I agree with you if I now understand. I see no reason to think that Sirhan wasn’t scripted just like Oswald. I believe the MKUltra/hypnosis thing is just an elaborate story even if MKUltra is a very real phenomenon. It’s just a belief but I think I’m perfectly justified in not believing a single word that we get about any of these crimes unless the evidence is clearly presented … and even then you can never be sure.

flaxgirl
Reader

We’ll have to agree to disagree, milo. I see no reason, as an agent, why he simply would not deliver the scripted line, “I’m just a patsy.”

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

Why does it benefit the CIA to point out on live TV, that the JFK Assassination Official Story, which they went to so much effort to set up, is fake?

flaxgirl
Reader

I’m just a logical, prosaic thinker. I don’t like to see crime thrillers alone because I find I often can’t follow the story properly and need some explanatory help afterwards. My progress in ability to analyse events has come from picking up golden nuggets of information and running with them. When you run with the nuggets your understanding expands and you are better able to analyse. As I keep saying, milo, they inform us of their crimes. Ole Dammegard was informed by an insider that the power elite feel that by informing us they put the onus on us to… Read more »

Admin
Moderator
Admin

You are so selective about where you apply your skepticism. It never occurs to you, for example that Ole Dammegard might be making that story up. You have no evidence, you just decide to trust him and indeed build a massive tower of assumption based on his uncorroborated word. Your arbitrary decisions about what you ‘know’ to be true or false are not analytical, despite your frequent boast, they’re merely your own impulses and prejudices which you choose to regard as deep insights.

flaxgirl
Reader

Also, I state categorically that I’m a prosaic, logical thinker which implies I don’t have deep insights. That’s my point! It’s just a question of going with the golden nuggets as I say. All I do is match the claim with the evidence, that is all. Why do you not do that or do you simply not see that there is a match? Why do I go on receipt of the nugget from Ole, “Oh yes, the ludicrous Mark Walsh testimony, oh yes, Silverstein’s saying he said to “pull it”, oh yes, the terrorists turning up alive, oh yes, the… Read more »

flaxgirl
Reader

Why do simply never catch on, Admin? How on earth do you manage it? I said I believed it immediately because it fitted the evidence, didn’t I? As I said that, rather than claim I “have no evidence” why do you not ask me to provide it. I’ve provided it in the past but somehow you must’ve missed it. Certain evidence, in fact, makes no sense without accommodating this fact. No sense at all. A classic example, is “witness”, Mark Walsh, being interviewed by FoxNews near the twin towers shortly after their collapses. He’s obviously not a genuine witness and… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

Why don’t you just come out and tell us that JFK and RFK are still alive, and that the Vietnam War was faked on a Hollywood movie lot?

flaxgirl
Reader

And just to add: When half (or more of the story) is false why believe any of it? This is what I don’t understand. Why do people believe any of the story (unless there’s good evidence for it) when so much of it is false? We don’t have to believe that they put people in jail just because they say they do. We don’t have to believe that people die just because they say they do. Why should we believe a single word? We don’t have to believe that Sirhan Sirhan was hypnotised or whatever just because they say or… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

When half (or more of the story) is false why believe any of it? This is what I don’t understand.

The “Tonkin Gulf Incident” is a complete fabrication; it never happened at all. Therefore, the entire Vietnam War is also a fabrication; it was faked on a Hollywood movie lot. The supposed 58,000 American casualties are all fictitious personas; they never existed, either.

Why do people believe any of the story (unless there’s good evidence for it)

Oh wait, that’s why.

Also, dead men tell no tales, or at least, not after they’re dead.

flaxgirl
Reader

Yes, Gulf of Tonkin was a lie used as a pretext to start war but the war wasn’t a fabrication. You seem to suggest this is the way I reason. I don’t. Very, very few agents tell tales and when agents say they’re ex-CIA and now they’re spilling the beans, don’t believe a word of it, unless the truth of it seems extremely certain – it’s generally just more bullshit. As someone on a video (don’t remember which) said,”There’s no ex. There are no ex agents.” There’s a guy now, Cody Snodgres, who’s allegedly ex-CIA spilling the beans on the… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

“There are no ex-agents.”

More accurately, there are no LIVING ex-agents. According to the usual understanding, a former agent who outlived his usefulness, but not for very long, thereafter becomes an ex-agent.

The JFK assassination is thick with such people. Or do you claim that David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Guy Banister, etc, lived on after their supposed expiry date? Why? Dead men tell no tales.

flaxgirl
Reader

Milo, of course, they’re killing here, there and everywhere but not necessarily where they’re making out they’re doing it. You’re too black and white about things. In certain situations it suits them to pretend they’re killing people when they’re not and in other situations they kill massively but hide the evidence of it. It upsets me that they used Nick Vogt, a soldier who had his legs blown off by an IED in Afghanistan and whose life was in the balance, to play “Jeff Bauman”, Boston bombing survivor who allegedly had his legs blown off in Boston. Nick Vogt was… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

This helps to perpetuate the idea that the perps are killing people here there and everywhere

So, according to you, the US government is NOT killing people here, there, and everywhere. Got it.

Who’s the disinfo agent, now?

flaxgirl
Reader

Yes, one option is to kill them for real and no doubt this happens reasonably often. But, of course, they’re very wily, aren’t they? Other options are: — pretend to kill them as a form of propaganda suggesting that they needed them killed to try to suppress certain information. Like many truthers, I believed that Dutch controlled demolition expert, Danny Jowenko, was killed in a suspicious car accident on his way home from church. This helps to perpetuate the idea that the perps are killing people here there and everywhere when, in fact, death and injury were staged AND they… Read more »

flaxgirl
Reader

So you think they killed Lee Harvey Oswald, milosevic? If so, how do you explain the anomaly that the photo does not match a still in the “live” TV footage?

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

I think you explained it yourself — “different camera angles”. The simplest explanation that accounts for all the available evidence is the most likely to be correct. Therefore, it is highly likely (haha) that JFK, RFK, Oswald, and Ruby, are all dead, the Vietnam war actually happened (unlike the moon landings), two Boeing-767s crashed into the World Trade Center, and three of those buildings were then blown up with pre-planted explosives, killing everybody above the fire zone. Your unswerving faith in the humanitarian inclinations of the US government is touching, but contrary to all available evidence. Therefore, theories such as… Read more »

flaxgirl
Reader

I said ALLOWING for different camera angles. When you allow for them you still cannot get a still shot that would match the photograph – obviously the still shot won’t be exactly the same when the camera angle is different but even when you allow for it you will not get one that will match. So you should be able to stop the video and say, “This still shot is that photograph at a different angle” but it cannot be done. If you think it can please direct me to the point in the video that you think matches the… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

19 seconds, or 20 seconds, into this video (note that those are from two different TV cameras) looks like a good match to me, right down to the position of Ruby’s left elbow, and the expression on the face of the cop with the white hat.

Slow it down to 1/4 speed, and you can see exactly when the still photo must have been taken.

flaxgirl
Reader

And just to add: I find it phenomenal that on a video posted by mainstream media (not a hoax analyst) there are so many commenters saying that they think the shooting was staged. Simply phenomenal.

Admin
Moderator
Admin

Not strange at all – there’s a huge push to derail serious analysis by flooding it with nonsense and uninformed speculation. There are always trolls BTL claiming the earth is flat or everything is fake – what better way to drown out the real signal than with a gush of static and white noise?

flaxgirl
Reader

Actually, I’d say it is an unusual phenomenon because you see it rarely so while you might have a perfectly valid reason to expect it, my experience is that you rarely see it. But perhaps your experience differs. Of course, you may simply think these people are trolls. They don’t strike me that way, especially, obviously as I agree with them.

flaxgirl
Reader

I cannot reply to your comment about my stills 3 and 4 on your comment so I’ll do it here. We’ll have to agree to disagree. To me, they are so obviously not a match. There’s nothing more I can say. As I said, it wasn’t me who worked it out but someone else but perhaps the commenter and I are both wrong while you and Admin are both right. It’s always possible. Also, I have admitted to being wrong about the giants in the windows but being wrong once (or more) doesn’t mean always being wrong so please don’t… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

You can see that people in the photo are simply not positioned at all in the same place as they are in the video and you can see that people are not looking at all in the same direction. Please look at my stills of the video against the photo. Actually, people ARE looking the same direction, but the two cameras aren’t — it appears that the direction of view of the video is about 45 degrees to the left of that of the photo. Naturally, then, relative to cameras looking in different directions, people APPEAR to be looking in… Read more »

flaxgirl
Reader

Oops! We do see the guy with the policeman’s hat though not while LHO is actually being shot – a second or so later – but in any case he’s on the wrong side of the screen.

flaxgirl
Reader

OK, so I was rather arrogant and foolish. Of course, no way would it have occurred to me that the photo didn’t match any still in the video, however, someone pointed it out in a comment on the YT video. (Such golden nuggets to be obtained in YT comments as well as in YouTuber videos). I’m like, “What a genius. What a fantastic, easy way to prove the shooting was staged.” I confess I didn’t really look all that closely. I just knew the commenter was right. But you have prompted me milo to do a proper analysis and I… Read more »

Admin
Moderator
Admin

A lot of claims for mismatch are made based on a failure to appreciate changes in perspective and the truly massive distortion s created by camera lenses. The photos and the film are taken from two very different perspectives so it’s not surprising they don’t match in terms of what can be seen. The film camera is seemingly closer and lower than the still camera, and it’s angled directly behind Ruby toward Oswald. The line of view from thus perspective obscures the people behind, including military guy. Take a look at some other YT vids about distortions of perspective and… Read more »

flaxgirl
Reader

Admin, you have got to be joking. Perspective cannot account for a complete mismatch. You can see that people in the photo are simply not positioned at all in the same place as they are in the video and you can see that people are not looking at all in the same direction. Please look at my stills of the video against the photo. What you’re doing is simply making general observations without close examination of the evidence. You need to look more carefully. There would have to be a particular point in the video that can be identified and… Read more »

Admin
Moderator
Admin

They absolutely are looking in the same direction – simply shot from different angles and with different lenses.

Do NOT underestimate the distortion created by different camera lenses, which can not only completely change the apparent proximity of objects, but also the apparent relationship of objects to each other. Go research that before making any other claims. The results will astonish you. A great many faux claims of discrepancy can be accounted for by the observers being unaware of these factors.

flaxgirl
Reader

I don’t know why you don’t use a scientific method, as I have, and simply identify the still from the video that you think matches the photo. Then rather than debating to and fro about general principles such as perspective we can argue about something more concrete. I have identified four possible stills and put them against the photo. There is a very clear mismatch regardless of perspective. If you disagree, please tell me which of the four stills matches the photo, or, if you think another still matches please tell me where it occurs in relation to my four… Read more »

Admin
Moderator
Admin

Have you studied the extreme effects of lenses? Until you do that and realise just how much they can change how a scene looks you can’t really comment with any authority.

Regarding the images under discussion, the film camera is in a different place, at a different height, facing in a different direction than the still camera. Even without factoring in any lenses being used why would you expect the two cameras to show identical images?

flaxgirl
Reader

No I haven’t studied the extreme effect of lenses. I absolutely do not expect two cameras to show identical images – I do say “allowing” for different angles, don’t I? You’re such a great strawmanner, Admin, top marks. However, I do expect two cameras of the same scene to show shots that can be matched, allowing for angles, height, etc. In my opinion, albeit without the benefit of lens expertise, the differences are too great to be put down to differences in lenses, angles, heights, etc. What it seems you’re arguing for is the possibility that shots could match rather… Read more »

Admin
Moderator
Admin

Look, you are the one making the extraordinary claim – you are the one who needs to do the work. You can’t just hand wave away questions of angles and lenses! The same scene can look COMPLETELY different if photographed from different perspectives with diff lenses, you need to eliminate this possibility before making your extraordinary claims.

flaxgirl
Reader

I disagree that my claim is extraordinary. Firstly, it wasn’t even my claim initially it was someone else’s – I simply recognised its validity. Secondly, when we look at the context, logic would indicate that it was more than likely staged and a simple lack of evidence also suggests staging. Premises — Oswald was an agent hired to play the patsy. — Intelligence agencies disappear people by “sheepdipping” them, that is, giving them new identities and shipping them off elsewhere. (Perhaps you don’t agree with these premises?) Logic As Oswald was an agent hired to play the patsy they could… Read more »

flaxgirl
Reader

“Unswerving faith in the humanitarian inclinations of the US government” What on earth are you talking about milo? I don’t think the US government didn’t kill the people in the buildings because of any goodness in their hearts. Are you absolutely kidding me? It’s just not their MO … and for very good reasons. The loved ones of those, had they murdered them. But that’s only one reason. What very few seem to get about the power elite but is so screamingly obvious to me – at least after I learnt it from Ole Dammegard – is that they love… Read more »

Edward Curtin
Reader
Edward Curtin

BigB – The relevance is truth, not very complex. When the mainstream media in great numbers heap only encomia on Breslin and Hamill and an HBO documentary about them at the same time that many others – RFK, Jr., James Douglass, and 58 other well-known Americans are calling a truth commission on the assassinations of the 1960s – and refuse to point out Breslin and Hamill’s failure in this regard, it is incumbent on a writer to write the truth. John Pilger has done great work, and I hold him in high regard, but his comments you quote about the… Read more »

John Ervin
Reader
John Ervin

In an important book from Skyhorse of a few years back, Patrick Nolan writes in his “CIA Rogues and the Killing of the Kennedys” that there were several key witnesses, including a press photographer, who witnessed flames from “6 inches to 12 inches” coming from Sirhan’s Iver Johnson .22 That testimony never made it to trial. The only way that happens is if the gun is firing blanks. Sirhan was meant, in a variation on a theme of Oswald, to be gunned down in a crossfire of the real assassin(s) (Nolan sketches two, behind Kennedy) and never see a courtroom,… Read more »

BigB
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BigB

Forgot the punchline “No more bullshit: we need a new mythology…”.