OPEN THREAD: The Second Referendum
Labour released a statement today, saying that they will support a “people’s vote” on any possible Brexit deal:
We will also be backing the Cooper-Letwin amendment to rule out a no deal outcome. One way or another, we will do everything in our power to prevent no deal and oppose a damaging Tory Brexit based on Theresa May’s overwhelmingly rejected deal.
That’s why, in line with our conference policy, we are committed to also putting forward or supporting an amendment in favour of a public vote to prevent a damaging Tory Brexit being forced on the country.
The Labour statement was predictable divisive – with some people declaring it a triumph for The Independent Group, the newly-defected “centrist party”:
This *might* make the Independent Group the most successful political party of all time https://t.co/WdTNzL7gmo
— Jonathan Freedland (@Freedland) February 25, 2019
While others see it as a massive blunder:
If #LabourConference were to block #Brexit it would be worse than a crime it would be a blunder. A #KhakiElection would then follow. May for Britain #Corbyn for the #EU. The Tories would win. Bigly.
— George Galloway (@georgegalloway) September 23, 2018
- Is this an example of Corbyn bowing to pressure? Or finally seeing reason?
- What is the likely result of a second referendum?
- Is Britain staying the EU after all?
- Does this make Labour government more, or less likely?
- Will Corbyn face a leadership challenge in the near future?
As always, discuss below.
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If the Rees Mogg gang is serious about Brexit, they will have to support May’s deal because a delay and a 2nd referendum will kill off Brexit for another generation or two.
Let’s see if they are just self-interested scum bags or if they put their money where their mouth is.
Suddenly a useless thread as T. May has just handed the EU 100% of the say, and they will say “British say? No way! Our say! And we say ‘NO Brexit’. Got it? Now get back into line.”
Quick answers:
Political Opportunism
Another Leave victory
In (if it changed anything, it wouldnt be allowed)
Less. Joining the bourgeois est guarantees it
Hopefully.
For all those who think that Frankly Speaking or the supposed ‘moderates’ are not far right wing – then consider the following quotations. One is taken from the Project for the New America Century from 2003 and the other is taken from the progressive Euston Manifesto written in 2006. Quotation A “We recognize that it was possible reasonably to disagree about the justification for the intervention, the manner in which it was carried through, the planning (or lack of it) for the aftermath, and the prospects for the successful implementation of democratic change. We are, however, united in our view about the reactionary, semi-fascist and murderous character of the Baathist regime in Iraq, and we recognize its overthrow as a liberation of the Iraqi people. We are also united in the view that, since the day on which this occurred, the proper concern of genuine liberals should have been the… Read more »
Yes, the problem with Hitler is that he made such a mess of fighting the war. He should have conquered Russia, exterminated the population, and won the war. But he botched it. Quite unforgiveable.
“For all those who think that Frankly Speaking or the supposed ‘moderates’ are not far right wing – then consider the following quotations”
How dare you totally misrepresent me as a right winger you utter scumbag?
I was born and brought up and studied at university all amongst the “dark satanic mills” of the North and then worked my arse off in all manner of shit jobs there. I’ve always voted Labour or Liberal, never once Tory filth let alone Kipper or BNP scum.
You Marxists and Trotskyists have an appalling track record throughout history and are as bad and extreme as your totalitarian brothers on the right. Dangerous zealots the lot of you.
@Frankly Speaking It is not relevant where you were born or in what type of area, where you went to school or university etc. You just try to employ gritty northern images to imply an association with a socialist working class history and cover up your true political leanings. You seem to think that your political position exists entirely independently of the things you actually say and think. You claim to be left, moderate or centrist merely by making the claim itself. But if you say and think exactly the same things as the Neocon PNAC and rewrite the PNAC for them – then you and all the Blairite progressives are imperialist Neocons as you say and think exactly the same things. Christ – you lot have even openly embraced Bill Kristol now and given him ‘Woke’ status. When Blair re-branded the Labour Party it was far more than a… Read more »
“you lot have even openly embraced Bill Kristol now and given him ‘Woke’ status” + 10 other points
Once again, you’ve completely misrepresented me and again wrapped me up with a bunch right wing nutters.
I’ve obviously committed one of your Thought Crimes. Accusing people of what they are not, closing down debate, trying to intimidate / bully them off forums. If you are what represents the likes of Momentum, then God help this country.
In fact what you are doing is blatantly libellous. Mods, this is completely out of order, I’m not putting up with 100% total lies about my views and being accused of something I’m not.
Any sign of my last comment Admin? Supposedly posting 4 comments over 24 hours is posting ‘too quickly’. How subtle disguised censorship has become these days. Next you’ll be complaining there are two many links/evidence in a comment that we are not allowed to make and support our arguments because you do not understand IT and how things could work. In your view their is no difference between supporting documentary evidence and Spam.
We’re not holding your comments back Simon – but for some reason they keep being automatically added to the pending list, despite having fewer than three links. We have no idea why the software does this sometimes. It just seems to pick on certain accounts.
Likewise the ‘posting too quickly’ thing is not in our control. The whole comment software is hardwired by WordPress, and it’s quite possible it does subtly censor or is just very glitchy.
Apologies for the inconvenience
Dear Admin, It’s notable that you answer Hughes’ concerns yet completely ignore mine. What can I assume? It’s notable that in recent times that as a zealous as the Guardian is towards protecting neoliberalism and international interventionism, unfortunately Off-Guardian appears to be sliding in its zealoutry towards far left neo-Marxists and Trotskyists and protects them at all costs, even if they lie and even potentially libel another commenter here. When I first read and then eventually commented on Off-Guardian there was generally civilised and respectful debate, but now the forums are descending into the Momentum equivalent of the Kipper Telegraph, how sad. By the way, I’m not going to be financially supporting you again in the near future, at least until the place is cleaned up. I’m all for free speech, but lies and bullying tactics trying to silence people off the forum are way out of bounds. Anyway, I’m… Read more »
This Hughes’ should indeed be brought to book and his spell checker JK Rowling I assume.
Mods, once again I’ve been completely mis-represented by Hughes, 100% lies about my political views. I will not be intimidated nor bullied by provocateurs and those trying to stifle democratic debate. It’s completely false and unacceptable what he is writing about my views, in fact it’s completely libellous. I will not sit back and let this attack be ignored.
Sincerely,
Frank
Speaking Frankly
My criticisms are largely directed at the imperialist pro-EU supposedly ‘progressive Blairites and TIGgers. I get the idea that you strongly identify with them. That is your choice. Its nothing personal but a sign that something is deeply wrong in our societies when we are not paying attention to what is really going on behind the scenes in Project Fear, the great financial crisis, the catastrophic failure of Neoliberalism etc not to mention the horrors of what has occurred in the Middle East under the name of a false progressive humanitarian interventionism. I think you protest too much and I wonder quite how many Frankly speaking Franks there might actually be as you seem to feel the need to answer almost every comment posted. Speaking Frankly is problematic on so many levels.
In very simple terms, I agree with you as to what all the problems are, however, i disagree with you as to the remedies.
Reverting to “old school” Scandinavian social democracy is the most balanced and logical solution for me.
Yes, we all may have lofty and Utopian ideals as to how to change the world, but in reality we have a very limited toolkit, but we can use it to very good effect with good cooperation and management, a destructive revolution is not necessary.
“It’s completely false and unacceptable what he is writing about my views, in fact it’s completely libellous.”
Libellous? He’s Mr Hodges and you’re Mr Speaking? How’s Mrs Speaking and all the little Speakings? Frankly goes to Bollywood?
It’s completely unacceptable……even if it is true.
It’s completely unacceptable BECAUSE it’s true.
Another person mis-representing my political views and spreading lies. Thank you, I hope you are pleasuring yourself.
@Frankly Speaking
If there is some confusion as to what your views precisely are perhaps you are best advised to make them explicit so none of us can have any doubts about them?
That the EU was firstly a German dream that became the Nazi face of its delivery is not using the ‘Nazi’ label as a hate dump – in my opinion. The USA developed Europe as part of its new world order. But these terms are too simple – for there were/are lobbies that operate through the USA that can be said to have developed The USA as part of bringing about its NWO. Your position was criticised without extending any willingness of meeting you. I get that also at times – but only as smear and appeal to join in hate. It goes with putting anything forth that is disagreed with emotional reactivity. But is the post primarily about YOU – or is it to the issues involved? Was a personal attack on your views inherent to the many examples given re the EU – that you may feel are… Read more »
FS, the biggest irony is that – assuming of course that there could possibly be such a thing as social democracy – the only way you’d have a hope in hell of achieving it is by taking the position of the “hard left” i.e. the left. Otherwise you are end up with the constant drawing of a line in the sand which the big capitalist bully boys happily pass over without even seeing it while you get more and more jolly cross with them.
Makropulos – not at all. As the centre has veered over to the right ove the past youple of decades or so, the “old school” social democracy that I refer to was significantly more to the left than New Labour Toryism of recent years. It’s more or less in he area where Corbyn personally is now, but without the Momentum Trotskyists accompanying him.
Libellous? He’s Mr Hodges and you’re Mr Speaking? How are Mrs Speaking and all of the little Speakings? Frankly goes to Bollywood?
Libellous? He’s Mr Hodges and you are Mr Speaking. How are Mrs Speaking and all the little Speakings? Frankly goes to Bollywood?
Why not sue him? You could be Andrew Mitchell Mark II.
I appreciate comments that open to a greater perspective rather than hate-dumps of ‘filth, scum and etc’. I understand that when hate is in my guts it can make me ‘hate someone’s guts’ (as was a common childhood expression in my younger days). But your comment identified the thinking running beneath different forms of the same ideological movement. The identification of sovereign states as the ‘regime’ that must be destroyed for a new order to rise – characterised by a technocratic framework of regulations, enforcers and propagandised popular support or at least conformity and compliance, but presented as a rising spirit. (Backwards and truth tied). As if to simply destroy perceived blocks will automatically bring freedom to flow along the route prepared. (Or as in the case of nation-destroying – no freedoms due to all routes denied). Some of this is similar to the idea of getting rid of the… Read more »
@Binra
I find your comments very interesting, not least in that I don’t fully understand them. But ‘fullness’ of understanding was always a misguided pursuit or notion. We all come from different backgrounds, histories, cultures and perspectives but I feel that we all share at least some fundamental principles. I am no great fan of our current limited democracies and institutions but unfortunately they are all we currently have and I am loathe to surrender them to supposed supranational technocrats and experts who have continually proved themselves to be wrong. You seem to have a very spiritual and poetic approach to the world which is understandable but hard to translate into real politics. We must carry on trying in our different ways I suppose because what else is there?
True witness – which I like to also call true with-ness, is also true worship – or worth-ship. Being true to ourself is then a basis to give into a living relationship that is uncovered from a true sharing – rather than attempt to use relationships Others) merely for getting self-reinforcement. This is of course communication as a basis for self. life and culture – but is largely replaced by defences that are no less weaponised and marketized than our ‘world writ large’. Its all about what ‘we can get’ – which is expressive of a presumption of lack, and under threat, seeking power, of possession and control. What does it profit us to gain a fake world at expense of truly felt and shared meaning? The principle of relational being is what is missing from systems of getting – no matter how cleverly they may take on the forms… Read more »
Your words make perfect sense to me, Simon. What really gets to me is that I have seen decades of a swing to the right with ruthless and relentless privatisation, deregulation, stripping of public assets, hammering of life conditions etc. – all of these following on logically from Thatcher’s shrewd boast that Tony Blair was her greatest achievement i.e. that she had, through Blair, effectively turned Labour into another Tory party. And the proof of this ferocious and constant rightward pull is that when a moderate reformist like Corbyn comes in, the entire mainstream media fly into apoplexy about “the return of the loony left”. And here comes FS to echo the same sentiment albeit with a bit of the requisite “oppositional” presentation.
Indeed. Project Fear and Project Anti-Corbyn are two sides of the same Neoliberal coin. I think we need to alert our young people to the fact that ‘Identity Politics’ is not a politics as such as it costs the government and establishment nothing to pursue whilst on the blind side their ultimate main goal is turning everyone into debt slaves.
We’ve got so many get-out clauses, we’ve already got a fantastic deal with the EU, it’s madness to leave and get a worse trading deal as a result.
Social Democrats across Europe are better standing together rather than being ripped apart by the Neocons and Neoliberals. We need a a reformed EU, not to bail out of it and be ripped apart by the US vultures.
What Social Democrats? The ones supporting the Abrams Regime Change in Venezuela? Or the Social Democrats who bombed Libya? Or the Social Democrats who staged the coup in Ukraine? Or maybe the Social Democrats agitating for a war with Russia? Yes, how can we possibly live without all those fine Social Democrats?
No, those are NOT social democrats. New Labour was Tory. The uDemocrats are Republicans. Momentum are not Social Democrats either.
That is a social democrat they’re all fraudsters
@Frankly Speaking
In terms of trust, can you please define who precisely the real social democrats are and why?
To break from or release allegiance to an ‘unholy alliance’ is the basis from which to make real relationships. Leaving the EU is not anti-european – and to demonise the ‘personal’ instead of addressing the issue is the nature of every breakdown of communication. Any stranger seeking power can use sweeteners and threats to get the children into their car, but they alone are the setting the agenda to target your hopes and fears as the vector for using you to enact their private gratifications. That power is systematised to a technocratic ‘necessity’ is the car we are already lured into as a result of a worship (sacrifice to) technologism – that equates to marketising and weaponising everything. Not quite King Midas – but the same principle. Such a science is corrupt and corrupting. There is no question in my mind of the sense and sanity of seeking and finding… Read more »
Binra, I full sympathase with your position, very eloquently put. However, the “average voter” does either not understand the fundamentals that we are discussing, or does not wish to undersand them, or else they are way to busy working in low paid jobs and struggling to make ends meet. Going back to the 1950s through 80s, my view is that the social democratic model as implemented by the Scandinavian / Nordic countries and even Switzerland, Germany and France, has been unique in its effectiveness in providing its citizens a very robust welfare state, education, health etc, whilst keeping a leash on the unbridled greed of capitalism. It’s influence has wobbled a bit since then, but this model is a proven success if it’s allowed to continue, and / or we revert to it. This really all that the majority of citizens wish for. Given the right parties in power, Britain… Read more »
A long as everyone looks to see what everyone else is doing, so long with everyone choose to be stuck at the same place and call it the human condition. That different versions of political systems are rolled out into different regions is another way of framing in a technocratic system of politics that seems to be either neutral or aligned with the sacred – as in trojan horse. But a key fact here is the shift from relational communication and initiative to systemised behaviour modification or social engineered ‘delivery of service’. Welcome to post truth robotics Inc. I am not writing from a desire to impact or manipulate opinion and so within that framing I am meaningless. But that is also to say that I find that framing not only meaningless but operating at cost of the truly meaningful. The nature of identity theft is a usurping or dispossession.… Read more »
There are no “get out clauses”. The EU has written neoliberalism into law, they don’t have to do a thing now, corporations do the rest just like Virgin did, taking the NHS to court and winning because a contract was not given to them.
To claim otherwise is lying.
Tell the Greeks/ Italians/ Spaniards/ Irish about “get out clauses.”
Brussels dislikes their elected governments, so it just send round a few of its functionaries to take over and rule those countries in their place. It doesn’t like the Italian budget so it just tears it up. It doesn’t like Spanish Cabinet appointments so it orders Madrid to change them. It orders Dublin to privatise water against the wishes of the entire population.
Some get out.
Once a country signs up for the Euro there can be no get out clauses for them, a single currency cannot allow that. I’m pro EU but against the Euro and a federal state, these viewpoints are not mutually exclusive.
Absolutely. Brexit is divide-and-rule directed by the elites, which is masquerading as a democratic, grassroots movement. We should seek unity with our fellow Europeans.
People’s vote? Pity they didn’t get some people to vote the first time round. Would have saved an awful lot of kerfuffle.
Is this an example of Corbyn bowing to pressure? Yes. Old Jezza has always been lukewarm about the Common Market/ EEC/ EU/ coming European Superstate. For the same reasons as Tony Benn. Whatever social democratic elements it may have formerly espoused in the 60s/ 70s, it is now solely a vehicle for powerful vested interests, the 0.1%, to impose austerity on the great mass of working people and further enrich themselves at their expense. It is a profoundly corrupt, anti democratic, remote, bureaucratic regime. Anyone who doubts that characterisation should consider its recent treatment of Greece, Italy, Spain, Ireland and eastern European countries. Brussels simply ignored the results of general elections and sent its functionaries to rule over Italy, Greece and Spain in place of their elected leaders. Cabinet appointments in Spain were vetoed by Brussels. The Italian budget was vetoed by Brussels diktat. It is a similar story in… Read more »
Is Britain staying in the EU? The most likely outcome is BRINO, Brexit in name only, with Britain staying in the single market, tariffs regime, with continuing EU interference and control over our economy and political life. A few cosmetic changes, with none of the benefits of leaving. Any future trade deals vetoed by Brussels. Continued primacy of the European Court. We will just be paying Brussels a lump sum of £40 billion, instead of £50 million a day, as at present, to add to the £500 billion (£500,000,000,000) already paid by Britain. Think what could have been done with that £500 billion over the years. Does this make a Labour government more or less likely? Very much less. Millions of Labour voters across its traditional heartlands voted for Brexit. Often by 60-70%. They will feel cheated, which is hardly surprising, because they have been. Millions of Brexit Tories will… Read more »
There’s a whole lot of difference between the rules and needing to enforce them within a common currency zone versus the rest. Using the same currency as your neighbour, you’ve already ceded your financial control to the common central bank, that’s a huge amount to give away.
Britain and Poland and a few others have kept their currencies and are doing better and are in a different place regarding control / sovereignty. We’ve got so many get-out clauses, we’ve already got a fantastic deal with the EU, it’s madness to leave and get a worse trading deal as a result.
Social Democrats across Europe are better standing together rather than being ripped apart by the Neocons and Neoliberals. We need a a reformed EU, not bail out of it and be ripped apart by the US vultures.
Staying in means declining into irrelevance on the fringes of a failing, remote, corrupt, anti democratic, bureaucratic nightmare of a Superstate incapable of reforming itself. This is our one chance of getting out. Otherwise we will be trapped in this Alice In Wonderland creation for ever. This is our last chance of getting out and plotting a coherent escape. If we blow it, this country is finished.
Well over 200 MEPs are bankrolled by Soros – they are in his pocket.
The reason Rees-Mogg, Johnson, May and their bosses want the UK to leave the EU is because they do not want to reform the UK. Leave the EU we would be condemned to become a plaything for their ilk, and you can be sure our rigged electoral system and undemocratic institutions would only solidify without the checks and balances of EU membership.
@Tom You do not appear to understand the principles of democracy (its a shabby thing at present I will grant you but we shouldn’t give up on it in principle). Leaving the EU does not consign us to a dictatorship by JRM or the Tories. Why is it especially in JRM’s interests to leave the EU? Because he’s involved with a hedge fund? Hedge funds are designed to make money on either side of outcomes that’s their very nature. Given the level of corruption in general in the world, JRM can make just as much money whether we stay in the EU or not. The whole point is that our political future is up to us. Outside of the EU we can impose whatever rules we want or not. We can impose higher standards than the EU across the board. We can elect a socialist government and JRM is well… Read more »
You’re for the status quo in the short term. If you understand economics, you will know that the Euro isn’t tenable long term. The only thing that will save it is federation. So countries like Poland and UK will, at some point, be asked to join or leave. However, federation brings it’s own problems, a lot of countries reject it, just as Britain would reject it, so there won’t be a European Union of 27, there will (probably) be a federation of around 6 countries. That means Germany will no longer be able to export its unemployment to the poorer nations, which will not be acceptable to the German people, WHO CURRENTLY HAVE BY FAR THE BEST DEAL IN THE EU. Which ever way you look at it, there is trouble ahead and I can’t see any scenario where we are better off staying. Also your reliance on social democracy… Read more »
Bravo Lundeil. I’m not sure many middle class remainers understand the depths of contempt & loathing some of us can have for both the neoliberal Tories and fantasist status-quo defending left-libs.
Voting Leave was a glorious two-fingered salute to this unholy alliance-its forced them to self-expose themselves as intolerant tribal Ideologues.
Absolutely!
I like your arguments but I think you’re overlooking one possibility. There’s no reason why the UK can’t be as productive and prosperous — and so as powerful — as Germany. The reason it isn’t is purely political; the priorities of the people who set policy are those of traders and bankers with industry pretty much left to fend for itself. Its quite likely once the crisis is past the country will revert to the way its always been but its also possible that this entire Brexit thing has opened the eyes of the population to who’s governing them and exactly what they’re priorities are. Real change is possible.
Will Ref #2 give a different result?
I think it will be even more for Leave-
The treatment of EU to us, and Italy, Spain,Portugal, Greece etc.
shows their real colours.
We’ll be the Bolshie b**tards like WWII, and say NO.
Don’t forget there were Tories then ready to do a deal with Hitler.
Nothing changes…
I am actually going to cite two Graun articles that are relevant. The first by the strident and always on point Chakrobotty, which is a fine piece pathfinding for the labour tactical attack, on the position to take ONCE the election is declared and they can openly declare for a remain choice if elected. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/25/labour-aids-tory-brexit-destroyed The second, by the prospective candidate to remove IDS from a long held Tory seat that was Churchills and Tebbits, which she and the grassroots made great inroads into at the last ‘snap’ and foreshortened election. This is indicative of how these campaigners didn’t stop campaigning, knowing how close they came and how with a few more weeks they would have won. Such is happening all across the country. Even in the shires that didn’t get any chance of a campaign in 2017. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/25/labour-new-politics-mps-independent-group Remember there was only a total of 800,000 votes between the… Read more »
Perhaps the result that is overlooked is that if one doesn’t align in a choice for freedom, then we condition ourselves to no longer believe in it and so are framed to think in system managed narratives. I see ‘brexit’ – Britain’s opportunity to leave the EU – as many things – some of which are already mentioned above. I don’t see it as a bottom up populist movement – but more the intent to use such a movement as part of a reconfiguring Europe of toward a globalist technocratic agenda in which binding contractual ‘trade’ deals, mesh with environmental (sic) medical (sick) and other coopted masking of apparently positive, protective or necessary cover stories to induce the release of the will from the mind, rather than its suppression. Aligning in freedom is recognising our cover story and voting not to use it. The cover stories of the world are… Read more »
I abstained last time and decided to accept the winner (which i was convinced would be remain by a landslide). I then became a Brexiteer, spurned on daily by the vile snobbery of most CIF commentators who really are the scum of the earth.
The great myth among remainers, is that a win for remain would take Britain back to those “happy” days before the first referendum. However the EU has already moved way beyond what many remainers i know found barely palatable then, towards ever greater federalization. If we don’t leave soon we will say goodbye to what is left of our democracy.
In other words, the case for leaving is vastly stronger than it was 3 years ago.
Britain’s got Brexit and the Tories.
The US has got Trump and the military industrial complex.
Could it be the energy of Karma balancing the books?
I was a Remainer the first time around. If it happens again I will, however I am likely to vote Leave.
Leavers have nothing to fear. They have a chance to confirm the result of the first referendum without being subject to accusations of propagandising the populace with lies such as the £350k per week for the NHS.
If it is true that Labour are to support a 2nd Referendum, there will be a stampede from the Labour Party. The main recipient will be Nigel Farage and his Brexit Party.
None dare call it Treason and contempt for the electorate..
Brexit means freedom. The UK should be anchoring the Silk Road’s western terminus. Europe is too involved in Zionist globallism and grovelling to the Yanks.
Nord stream 2 will cause the fragmentation of Europe anyway, as Germany at last joins hands with the Russians.
The $US empire is finished. It is time for new alliances.
Delusional, clueless, Marxist nonsense.
Brexit is a right wing project to tear Britain from Europe, divide and conquer is their game plan. Britain will be even more a poodle of the US after March 29.
Like the EU isn’t a poodle of the US already?! The EU-Nato bloc has established a vassal occupation of Europe. What makes you think that membership of the EU will allow the UK to have a say in its economic and foreign policy?
Frankly, if you want to pigeon-hole, then i believe that the whole societal purpose of Brexit & Trump , & Grexit supporters , (skewered by Neo-con moderate leftist & centrists like Tsipras, who 62% instructed NO/OXI by referendum), was to show the world how to focus finally on getting your own house in order first, to take back control of governance & regional sovereignty (& commence with accountability), that has been entirely usurped by Deep State forces in Government and their Ashkenazi Corporatist Fake Stream Media & in the EU & US. I think most people were finally fed up with being fed BS excuses as to why electoral & societal problems @home never get sorted, even addressed, whilst waging Hypocritical Sanctimonious War for Resources & Corporate control of sovereignty elsewhere, to prop up failed anachronistic empirical ponzi design systems & @home ! Your reference to Marxists & Trotskyists demonstrates… Read more »
Some excellent points Tim. However, you completely mis-charaterise me and indeed incorrectly pigeon hole me yourself, It starts at “while you are frankly s{peaking} still considering what went wrong with USUK & FUKUS and how it came into being that you all ended up financially bankrupt…..” I fully understand that we live in a broken system and the reasons for it, i fully agree with you. However, Brexit is not the answer, neither is Marxism. Traditional social democracy and cooperation is the answer. We are stronger staying with our European friends and stronger in working together towards removing the neoliberals. Being divided we are conquered. The Jillet Jaunes (Yellow Vests) are from across the political spectrum, but they are rapidly diminishing support because violence is not the answer. Le Pen is more likely to win the next election than is Melenchon. In Britain right wing Kippers are more likely win… Read more »
That must be why all the right wing City, Deep State, Spooks and MSM are so rabidly hostile to it.
Obviously some kind of fiendishly cunning plan, nothing at all to do with 17.4 million people.
How could Britain possibly be more of a US poodle than it is already???
Mark – More of a US poodle by having a free trade agreement with them that would decimate our agriculture, financial services and health services. Then add to that ERGs wet dream of joining NAFTA. We’d then might as well just join the USA as one of their States. That’s how.
“Brexit means freedom”? Lol. That’s delusional bollocks. I will vote leave – I’m not a big fan of the EU, but Brexit does not mean freedom. I guarantee, your life will not greatly improve.
Don’t wait for freedom. The improvement of life rests on what we are actively choosing now. So many seemingly promising carrots turn into the same old stick. If freedom is dangling on a stick or in attempt to escape one, then it will always be somewhere you are not. I guarantee you the parameters or qualities of living will align with the purpose you hold and accept true for you. Of course you are right that brexit does not mean freedom in and of itself – because we give all the meaning it has for us. But if we don’t align in the freedom we have, we cannot grow the recognition of meanings given to our world and our relationships that are not true. Doublespeak operates as if to mean quite differently from its ‘face value’. Few want the responsibility that freedom simply is – and are therefore willing to… Read more »
“Brexit means freedom”? lol, that’s delusional bollocks. We have a Tory government that wants to go further to the right to align itself with the far right regime in the United States. So Brexit will result in more not less grovelling to the United States, unfortunately.
With that said, I shall vote leave this time around and not remain as I did before if it happens again. The EU want to f*ck the internet. I cannot support that.
A new alliance, with the Chinese (= Xi)? From the frying pan into the fire.
I fail to see how allowing the demented, psychopathic Tories to get their grubby hands on the NHS and sell it off to the Yanks is in keeping with left-wing ideals.
I do believe I hear the sound of the great Aneurin Bevan turning in his grave.
NHS is already gone. It exists in name only, and has done for at least a decade
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/28/nhs-pays-virgin-threatens-sue-losing-contract/
It has already been flogged off to the City and the PFI Brigade.
And it was the Blairite crew who started the whole process of privatising the NHS with their PPP and PFI ‘initiatives’. Tory, Labour, Neoliberals are us.
OffG need to put up an update here don’t they?
The PV option has been Labour policy since the last conference vote on the matter.
The press release only says that they will follow through with that if their ‘stop no deal, stop May’s deal’ ammendment gets voted down. Which it will most likely.
Nothing has changed. Yet. Despite everyone going ape.
The full text of Labour’s amendment, to be tabled tomorrow, reads:
That this House instructs Ministers
(a) to negotiate with the EU for changes to the Political Declaration to secure:
(i) a permanent and comprehensive customs union with the EU;
(ii) close alignment with the single market underpinned by shared institutions and obligations;
(iii) dynamic alignment on rights and protections;
(iv) commitments on participation in EU agencies and funding programmes, including in areas such as the environment, education, and industrial regulation; and
(v) unambiguous agreement on the detail of future security arrangements, including access to the European Arrest Warrant and vital shared databases;
(b) to introduce primary legislation to give statutory effect to this negotiating mandate;
Or, translated, “Brexit without the Exit.”
fake news. https://skwawkbox.org/2019/02/25/urgent-ignore-msm-labour-has-not-tabled-a-referendum-amendment/
The Labour Party press release has been misrepresented. Corbyn bashers out in force already.
Thank you Andrea, you beat me to the post. Yes, the MSM has been quick to misrepresent. Labour’s amendment does NOT mention another vote. And thanks to Skwawkbox for its rapid response in pointing it out. We sure do have to be vigilant.
I think it will happen though, the amendment will get voted down and the Lab will support a second referendum, options will be May’s (EU’s) Deal or Remain, with A50 extended. At least that looks like the plan, probably with a general election in early summer.
I wonder if Corbyn is facing dozens of resigations and is basically cornered.
Does anybody else feel that this new independent party and Corbyn finally declaring for a second referendum is just all a little too late and should have emerged over a year ago. What really annoys me is how little is said about some of the reasons why some people are all for a no deal without restrictions so that a new trade deal can be set up with America. Liam Fox is desperate for a new trade deal with America but you must question why he would like all details to remain secret for at least five years. Any deal would require the UK to accept American patent, copyright and intellectual property right laws and if you have never heard of the Monsanto patented pig think again. They would also require the setting up of an international arbitration board staffed by corporate lawyers so that the same corporations could sue… Read more »
Other than Monsanto’s pig the EU is going the same way.
I fully agree Brian, but a hundred Marxists and Trotskyists here may vote you down.
They naively and stupidly believe that leaving the EU will usher in a Maduran Nirvana whereas the rest of us moderate leftists and centrists know it will become a Neoliberal and Neoconservative hell hole in Britain.
Frankly Speaking
You so called ‘moderate’ Blairite centrists are the Neoliberals and Neoconservatives. Admit it Nazi and stop hiding on the Left.
There is a principled left-wing stance against what is a slightly less than successful EU. Possibly you are not aware that GDP growth in the EU area in the most recent yearly calculation is 1.2% (Source: Trading Economics). The Big Four have come up with the following yearly figures for growth. UK 1.5%, France 1.4% Germany 1.1% and Italy 0.1%. These really are depression figures. But as Bill Mitchell the Australian economist points out: ”I suppose Brexit is to blame for the fact that Britain is now growing faster than the major European economies. The latest ‘monthly’ GDP figures show that the British economy grew by 0.3 per cent in the three months to November 2018 and will probably sustain that rate of growth for the entire final quarter of 2018. This is in contradistinction to major European economies such as Germany (which will probably record a technical recession –… Read more »
Outside the EU, Britain will have a lot less appeal to neocons because it won’t have the influence it had in the block. We will likely continue to be close to the US, as we are now. I don’t see any big change for the better or worse in that respect.
What will change, is the robustness of our democracy as more power is returned from Brussels and more pressure put on our elected representatives. How we vote is up to us. I suspect a new electoral system will be one of the first big changes.
Frankly, if you want to pigeon-hole, then i believe that the whole societal purpose of Brexit & Trump , & Grexit supporters , (skewered by Neo-con moderate leftist & centrists like Tsipras, who 62% instructed NO/OXI by referendum), was to show the world how to focus finally on getting your own house in order first, to take back control of governance & regional sovereignty (& commence with accountability), that has been entirely usurped by Deep State forces in Government and their Ashkenazi Corporatist Fake Stream Media & in the EU & US. I think most people were finally fed up with being fed BS excuses as to why electoral & societal problems @home never get sorted, even addressed, whilst waging Hypocritical Sanctimonious War for Resources & Corporate control of sovereignty elsewhere, to prop up failed empirical ponzi design systems & @home ! Your reference to Marxists & Trotskyists demonstrates to… Read more »
Apologies for this comment appearing twice over. There was some very considerable inexplicable time delay in its’ publishing, despite much ‘refreshment’ & coffee , so I resent it (further above) and then when refreshing to verify finally the second attempt, the first attempt appeared simultaneously. What to say ?
Fick die Ashkenazi Corporatist Lobby for an inequitable 2 speed internet , bitte ?
C’est la Guerre Mondiale online 🙂 stuck in “The Stalingrad of Weltanschauungskrieg” 😉
A hundred neocons and Brussels Groupies will have you believe in their Eutopia with its centralised superstate and EU army.
Brian – Since when did a Company become a Political Party?
Minimum wage monkey, from a leave voting constituency
I had my suspicions on this, the new PPC is a remainer.
Fuck Labour.
Guess it’s UKIP
So much for Corbyn…I spent money I couldn’t afford keep the git in
Random is as random does.
Minimum wage ? Youre lucky wait till they bring in US employment contracts – ZERO rights. You’ll be a slave.
Who says we have to jam our noses into the Yanks cracks?
It’ll be our doom! The future is East, and the Yanks are going to get much worse untill they are neutered. It will _not_ be pleasant either! We will crushed.
https://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2018/11/peace-behind-me-war-in-front-of-me.html?m=1
We either get off the neo con train, and start thinking of different ways or its the intro to Fallout 4 (and yes, video games have researchers…) https://youtu.be/4NkHQs7ann4
So much for British fight, guts and determination…
Random, the Atlantic Zbridgers have all the pork barrellets wueuing to come butfuck the UK economy and our standards and regulations – that’s why they paid secret billions to get a brexit.
Then in that case I get to gloat at entitled fools that get dragged down with me.
Serious question is do I just laugh at them, or point out that I won and helped bring about their new found poverty. And then laugh.
You sound a lot like project fear. Do you also think it’ll be the end of Europe? World War three? Still waiting for my emergency budget. (Carney is ex vampire squid, he’s following orders)
Forget Corbyn and forget any future hope of social democracy then. Corbyn will be ousted soon or in the event that Labour won an election the progressives will have a coup and take charge again simply because Corbyn didn’t have the courage to come out and back his own Brexit inclinations.