Brexit, empire watch, latest, UK

OPEN THREAD: The Second Referendum

Labour released a statement today, saying that they will support a “people’s vote” on any possible Brexit deal:

We will also be backing the Cooper-Letwin amendment to rule out a no deal outcome. One way or another, we will do everything in our power to prevent no deal and oppose a damaging Tory Brexit based on Theresa May’s overwhelmingly rejected deal.

That’s why, in line with our conference policy, we are committed to also putting forward or supporting an amendment in favour of a public vote to prevent a damaging Tory Brexit being forced on the country.

The Labour statement was predictable divisive – with some people declaring it a triumph for The Independent Group, the newly-defected “centrist party”:

While others see it as a massive blunder:

  • Is this an example of Corbyn bowing to pressure? Or finally seeing reason?
  • What is the likely result of a second referendum?
  • Is Britain staying the EU after all?
  • Does this make Labour government more, or less likely?
  • Will Corbyn face a leadership challenge in the near future?

As always, discuss below.


100 Comments

  1. Humbaba says

    If the Rees Mogg gang is serious about Brexit, they will have to support May’s deal because a delay and a 2nd referendum will kill off Brexit for another generation or two.

    Let’s see if they are just self-interested scum bags or if they put their money where their mouth is.

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  2. Robbobbobin says

    Suddenly a useless thread as T. May has just handed the EU 100% of the say, and they will say “British say? No way! Our say! And we say ‘NO Brexit’. Got it? Now get back into line.”

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  3. garyaz says

    Quick answers:
    Political Opportunism
    Another Leave victory
    In (if it changed anything, it wouldnt be allowed)
    Less. Joining the bourgeois est guarantees it
    Hopefully.

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  4. For all those who think that Frankly Speaking or the supposed ‘moderates’ are not far right wing – then consider the following quotations. One is taken from the Project for the New America Century from 2003 and the other is taken from the progressive Euston Manifesto written in 2006.

    Quotation A

    “We recognize that it was possible reasonably to disagree about the justification for the intervention, the manner in which it was carried through, the planning (or lack of it) for the aftermath, and the prospects for the successful implementation of democratic change. We are, however, united in our view about the reactionary, semi-fascist and murderous character of the Baathist regime in Iraq, and we recognize its overthrow as a liberation of the Iraqi people. We are also united in the view that, since the day on which this occurred, the proper concern of genuine liberals should have been the battle to put in place in Iraq a democratic political order and to rebuild the country’s infrastructure, to create after decades of the most brutal oppression a life for Iraqis which those living in democratic countries take for granted .”

    Quotation B

    “Although some of us have disagreed with the handling of Iraq policy and others of us have agreed with it, we all join in supporting the military intervention in Iraq….Regime change was not an end in itself but a means to an end – the establishment of a peaceful, stable, united, prosperous, and democratic Iraq free of all weapons of mass destruction. We must help build an Iraq that is governed by a pluralistic system representative of all Iraqis that is fully committed to upholding the rule of law, the rights of all its citizens, and the betterment of all its people. The Iraqi people committed to a democratic future must be integrally involved in this process in order for it to succeed. Such an Iraq will be a force for regional stability rather than conflict and participate in the democratic development of the region.”

    Is the Euston Manifesto Quotation A or B?

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    • mark says

      Yes, the problem with Hitler is that he made such a mess of fighting the war. He should have conquered Russia, exterminated the population, and won the war. But he botched it. Quite unforgiveable.

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    • Frankly Speaking says

      “For all those who think that Frankly Speaking or the supposed ‘moderates’ are not far right wing – then consider the following quotations”

      How dare you totally misrepresent me as a right winger you utter scumbag?

      I was born and brought up and studied at university all amongst the “dark satanic mills” of the North and then worked my arse off in all manner of shit jobs there. I’ve always voted Labour or Liberal, never once Tory filth let alone Kipper or BNP scum.

      You Marxists and Trotskyists have an appalling track record throughout history and are as bad and extreme as your totalitarian brothers on the right. Dangerous zealots the lot of you.

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      • @Frankly Speaking

        It is not relevant where you were born or in what type of area, where you went to school or university etc. You just try to employ gritty northern images to imply an association with a socialist working class history and cover up your true political leanings. You seem to think that your political position exists entirely independently of the things you actually say and think. You claim to be left, moderate or centrist merely by making the claim itself. But if you say and think exactly the same things as the Neocon PNAC and rewrite the PNAC for them – then you and all the Blairite progressives are imperialist Neocons as you say and think exactly the same things. Christ – you lot have even openly embraced Bill Kristol now and given him ‘Woke’ status.

        When Blair re-branded the Labour Party it was far more than a simple re-branding and many were not aware at the time that he fundamentally shifted the ideological base of the party away from social democracy to Neoliberalism, privatization and austerity. This was nothing other than a violent coup in the Labour party in which its political base shifted fundamentally from the left to the right, but this was concealed by people like you implying you somehow ‘belonged’ on the left independently of your actual policies. In order to cover this up you take to calling mild social democrats such as Jeremy Corbyn the far left and accuse all who oppose you of being Marxists and Trotskyites in order to make it appear you have a centrist position when in fact you are edging toward a non-democratic, far right Nazi mentality. You claim you are pro-EU but now anti the Euro as it has been pointed out to you that Euro membership links the EU directly to Neoliberalism in its very constitution and bureaucratic machinery such as the ESM. But you can’t be Pro-EU and anti the Euro as the Euro is absolutely central to the ideas of the single market and frictionless trade etc. They are inseparable as was laid out by the Nazis between 1936 – 1943.

        [1] “Above and beyond the concept of the nation-state, the idea of a new community will transform the living space given us all by history into a new spiritual realm… The new Europe of solidarity and cooperation among all its peoples, a Europe without unemployment, without monetary crises, … will find an assured foundation and rapidly increasing prosperity once national economic barriers are removed.”

        Arthus Seyss-Inquart, Minister of Security and the Interior in the post-Anschluss Nazi government, 1938, and later Prefect of Occuppied Holland – here he is addressing his Dutch subjects

        [2] “There must be a readiness to subordinate one’s own interests in certain cases to that of the European Community.”

        Walther Funk, Finince Minister in Hitler’s government, 1942.

        [3] “The solution to economic problems… with the eventual object of a European customs union and a free European market, a European clearing system and stable exchange rates in Europe, looking towards a European currency union.”

        Memorandum of the Reich Chancellery, 9 July 1940, signed by Hermann Göring

        [4] “The results of excessive nationalism and territorial dismemberment are within the experience of all. There is only hope for peace by means of a process which on the one hand respects the inalienable fundamental patrimony of every nation but, on the other, moderates these and subordinates them to a continental policy… A European Union could not be subject to the variations of internal policy that are characteristic of liberal regimes.”

        Alberto de Stefani, Finance Minister in Mussolini’s government, 1941

        [5] “A new Europe: that is the point, and that is the task before us. It does not mean that Italians and Germans and all other nations of the European family are to change their spots and become unrecognizable to themselves or to one another, from one day or one year to the next. It will be a new Europe because of the new inspiration and determining principle that will spring up among all these peoples.” … “The problem of the hierarchy of states will no longer arise. At least in its usual form, once we have cut off the dragon’s head; that is, the notion of state sovereignty. Moreover, this does not have to be done outright, but can be achieved indirectly, e.g. by creating interstate European bodies to look after certain common interests (exchange rates, communications, foreign trade etc….)”

        Camillo Pellizi, editor of Civilita Fascista, in an article entiled ‘The Idea of Europe’

        [6] [Here I shall quote from a well received, at the time, policy document which recommended the need to] “…put forward a European con-federal solution based on free cooperation among independent nations” [culminating into uniting Europe] “on a federal basis” [and adding that, to see this federation process through], “all that is required of European states is that they be loyal, pro-European members of the community and cooperate willingly in its tasks… The object of European cooperation being to promote peace, security and welfare for all its peoples.”

        Cicile von Renthe-Fink, Nazi official holding the diplomatic rank of minister of state, 1943.

        [7] “We must create a Europe that does not squander its blood and strength on internecine conflict, but forms a compact unity. In this way it will become richer, stronger and more civilized, and will recover its old place in the world.” “National tensions and petty jealousies will lose their meaning in a Europe freely organised on a federal basis. World political development consists inevitably in the formation of larger political and economic spheres.”

        Vidkun Quisling, Norwegian Nazi Collaborator, ‘Prime Minister’ of Occupied Norway, 1942

        [8] “It is not very intelligent to imagine that in such a crowded house like that of Europe, a community of peoples can maintain different legal systems and different concepts of law for long.”

        Adolph Hitler, addressing the Reichstag, 1936

        [9] “In my view a nation’s conception of its own freedom must be harmonised with present-day facts and simple questions of efficiency and purpose… Our only requirement of European states is that they be sincere and enthusiastic members of Europe.”

        Joseph Goebbels, 1940

        [10] “The people of Europe understand increasingly that the great issues dividing us, when compared with those which will emerge and will be resolved between continents, are nothing but trivial family feuds.” … “In fifty years Europeans will not be thinking in terms of separate countries.

        Joseph Goebbels, 1942

        So you absolutely reject the notion that you are extreme right wing but you just happen to say and think precisely the same thing as the Nazis. Does that not at the very least make you a Nazi sympathiser?

        In an article entitled “A Few Good Liberals” Bill Kristol fully endorsed the Euston Manifesto and he even quoted the same passage that I did. Not surprising really in that he originally wrote those words three years before the EM effectively rewrote and reduplicated the PNAC but by a false association with the Left – lent it the appearance of being a liberal or moderate foreign policy. Millions have died as a direct result of the Euston Manifesto which was designed to rescue the reputation of the progressive saviour and Messiah Tony Blair. Virtually half of the text is entirely devoted to the defence of Neoconservative foreign policy. It is not coincidence that the PNAC was shut down in 2006, the very same year that the EM was progressively popularized in the UK and the US. The PNAC didn’t need to carry on once the progressives had picked up the right wing imperialist torch for them.

        As Chris Marsden and Julie Hyland wrote on the World Socialist Web Site in May 2006. “Kristol has no difficulty recognising, behind the Euston group’s ‘democratic’ window dressing, the movement of a layer of former liberals firmly into the camp of imperialist reaction.”

        Democratic window dressing is the very key to progressive thought. They claim to be democrats but want to give up monetary, national and political sovereignty in order to be ruled by supranational technocrats. Its anti-demoractic and as it has now morphed into a progressive unipolar neoliberal/neoconservative globalism it is completely totalitarian. I judge people of their actual political policies, on what they precisely say and think and not what they simply claim to be. Speaking frankly should not be confused with open and honest discussion.

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        • Frankly Speaking says

          “you lot have even openly embraced Bill Kristol now and given him ‘Woke’ status” + 10 other points

          Once again, you’ve completely misrepresented me and again wrapped me up with a bunch right wing nutters.

          I’ve obviously committed one of your Thought Crimes. Accusing people of what they are not, closing down debate, trying to intimidate / bully them off forums. If you are what represents the likes of Momentum, then God help this country.

          In fact what you are doing is blatantly libellous. Mods, this is completely out of order, I’m not putting up with 100% total lies about my views and being accused of something I’m not.

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          • Any sign of my last comment Admin? Supposedly posting 4 comments over 24 hours is posting ‘too quickly’. How subtle disguised censorship has become these days. Next you’ll be complaining there are two many links/evidence in a comment that we are not allowed to make and support our arguments because you do not understand IT and how things could work. In your view their is no difference between supporting documentary evidence and Spam.

            • Admin says

              We’re not holding your comments back Simon – but for some reason they keep being automatically added to the pending list, despite having fewer than three links. We have no idea why the software does this sometimes. It just seems to pick on certain accounts.

              Likewise the ‘posting too quickly’ thing is not in our control. The whole comment software is hardwired by WordPress, and it’s quite possible it does subtly censor or is just very glitchy.

              Apologies for the inconvenience

              • Frankly Speaking says

                Dear Admin,

                It’s notable that you answer Hughes’ concerns yet completely ignore mine. What can I assume?

                It’s notable that in recent times that as a zealous as the Guardian is towards protecting neoliberalism and international interventionism, unfortunately Off-Guardian appears to be sliding in its zealoutry towards far left neo-Marxists and Trotskyists and protects them at all costs, even if they lie and even potentially libel another commenter here.

                When I first read and then eventually commented on Off-Guardian there was generally civilised and respectful debate, but now the forums are descending into the Momentum equivalent of the Kipper Telegraph, how sad.

                By the way, I’m not going to be financially supporting you again in the near future, at least until the place is cleaned up. I’m all for free speech, but lies and bullying tactics trying to silence people off the forum are way out of bounds. Anyway, I’m just one voice amongst many, I’m pretty sure I’ll be ignored and / or downvoted massively by the Momentus Trots – yes I’ll descend to insults too when insulted.

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        • Frankly Speaking says

          Mods, once again I’ve been completely mis-represented by Hughes, 100% lies about my political views. I will not be intimidated nor bullied by provocateurs and those trying to stifle democratic debate. It’s completely false and unacceptable what he is writing about my views, in fact it’s completely libellous. I will not sit back and let this attack be ignored.
          Sincerely,
          Frank

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          • Speaking Frankly

            My criticisms are largely directed at the imperialist pro-EU supposedly ‘progressive Blairites and TIGgers. I get the idea that you strongly identify with them. That is your choice. Its nothing personal but a sign that something is deeply wrong in our societies when we are not paying attention to what is really going on behind the scenes in Project Fear, the great financial crisis, the catastrophic failure of Neoliberalism etc not to mention the horrors of what has occurred in the Middle East under the name of a false progressive humanitarian interventionism. I think you protest too much and I wonder quite how many Frankly speaking Franks there might actually be as you seem to feel the need to answer almost every comment posted. Speaking Frankly is problematic on so many levels.

            • Frankly Speaking says

              In very simple terms, I agree with you as to what all the problems are, however, i disagree with you as to the remedies.

              Reverting to “old school” Scandinavian social democracy is the most balanced and logical solution for me.

              Yes, we all may have lofty and Utopian ideals as to how to change the world, but in reality we have a very limited toolkit, but we can use it to very good effect with good cooperation and management, a destructive revolution is not necessary.

          • Rob Bobbobin says

            “It’s completely false and unacceptable what he is writing about my views, in fact it’s completely libellous.”

            Libellous? He’s Mr Hodges and you’re Mr Speaking? How’s Mrs Speaking and all the little Speakings? Frankly goes to Bollywood?

          • mark says

            It’s completely unacceptable……even if it is true.

            • Makropulos says

              It’s completely unacceptable BECAUSE it’s true.

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              • Frankly Speaking says

                Another person mis-representing my political views and spreading lies. Thank you, I hope you are pleasuring yourself.

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                • @Frankly Speaking

                  If there is some confusion as to what your views precisely are perhaps you are best advised to make them explicit so none of us can have any doubts about them?

          • That the EU was firstly a German dream that became the Nazi face of its delivery is not using the ‘Nazi’ label as a hate dump – in my opinion. The USA developed Europe as part of its new world order. But these terms are too simple – for there were/are lobbies that operate through the USA that can be said to have developed The USA as part of bringing about its NWO.

            Your position was criticised without extending any willingness of meeting you.
            I get that also at times – but only as smear and appeal to join in hate.
            It goes with putting anything forth that is disagreed with emotional reactivity.
            But is the post primarily about YOU – or is it to the issues involved?
            Was a personal attack on your views inherent to the many examples given re the EU – that you may feel are all painting you as a Nazi. I didn’t read it that way – but of pulling away some of the illusions about the EU that are not addressed by the ‘brexit’ debacle (well it isn’t a debate is it!).

            That this was also an international cartel movement, irrespective its political face, is also a perceived self-interest in those who saw power as a way to deny others and get more power – not least in the current ideas of the time that also used Darwin to resurrect or restate the ‘right to rule’ in the old god-king/priesthood and Aristocracy image – but through different methods.

            As I favour a reintegrated willingness in place of enforced rule under tyranny – (including modern corporate capture of ‘soft’ tyranny), I don’t relate to left right and other identity politic – so much as feel for what is moving beneath the forms of appearances.

            The idea of international cooperation of peoples – is different from international corporate cartel leverage buying or leveraging ‘assets’ through what remains of any system of governance so as to ‘unify’ their common interests as a power class over and against ours as fodder, footstools or tooled fools.

            Forest canopies can deny light and light to a diversity that in the longer term, the forests also depends on. Parasitic sickness and fire are two methods I am aware of for the opening to light and life to bring forth new life.

            Alas the ‘human canopy’ attempts to mimic this from the canopy upon its populations – rather than get out of the way enough to let new life in. I see the old structures as becoming so rigid in their inability to grow that a reset is demanded. Too big to fail, means investment in a false economy is vulnerable to any facet of it being brought to true account (as I see it).

            Thus the lie demands ongoing sacrifice of the true and that includes the miseducation of the well-intentioned to give allegiance to negative agenda under false pretences.

            I don’t doubt you are well intentioned – but that you are unwittingly a spokesperson for more than you are aware of. And so I do not think you need take it personally – apart from of course recognizing you already have – but that is itself an issue to feel through, what is truly yours and what is someone else’s. When we are clear or whole in ourself, we can relate to others – if we are so moved – in ways that extend a sense of worth. If a gift is unrecognized or unwanted, it doesn’t negate the willingness of its giving – move on.

          • Makropulos says

            FS, the biggest irony is that – assuming of course that there could possibly be such a thing as social democracy – the only way you’d have a hope in hell of achieving it is by taking the position of the “hard left” i.e. the left. Otherwise you are end up with the constant drawing of a line in the sand which the big capitalist bully boys happily pass over without even seeing it while you get more and more jolly cross with them.

            • Frankly Speaking says

              Makropulos – not at all. As the centre has veered over to the right ove the past youple of decades or so, the “old school” social democracy that I refer to was significantly more to the left than New Labour Toryism of recent years. It’s more or less in he area where Corbyn personally is now, but without the Momentum Trotskyists accompanying him.

          • Rob Bobbobin says

            Libellous? He’s Mr Hodges and you’re Mr Speaking? How are Mrs Speaking and all of the little Speakings? Frankly goes to Bollywood?

          • Robbobbobin says

            Libellous? He’s Mr Hodges and you are Mr Speaking. How are Mrs Speaking and all the little Speakings? Frankly goes to Bollywood?

          • mark says

            Why not sue him? You could be Andrew Mitchell Mark II.

        • I appreciate comments that open to a greater perspective rather than hate-dumps of ‘filth, scum and etc’. I understand that when hate is in my guts it can make me ‘hate someone’s guts’ (as was a common childhood expression in my younger days).

          But your comment identified the thinking running beneath different forms of the same ideological movement.

          The identification of sovereign states as the ‘regime’ that must be destroyed for a new order to rise – characterised by a technocratic framework of regulations, enforcers and propagandised popular support or at least conformity and compliance, but presented as a rising spirit. (Backwards and truth tied).

          As if to simply destroy perceived blocks will automatically bring freedom to flow along the route prepared. (Or as in the case of nation-destroying – no freedoms due to all routes denied).

          Some of this is similar to the idea of getting rid of the ego as the ideal of a freedom of spirit,
          which is a seductive fantasy of the ego and righteous attack and sympathetic protection operates the way the ego hides itself most cleverly in the idea of getting rid of itself or protecting against its own results.

          Self-defeating contradictions run as the doublethink under which needless sacrifices are glorified or made sacred as the wound that never stops giving.

          ‘Self’ definition is the basis of our world, perceived and responded to.
          As a man thinketh so he is. (To his experience).

          The recognition of this at some level is the basis of PR, propaganda or mind control of the psyop as post-truth politics. As if changing the perception-association-response has changed reality itself. But who can wield a power without becoming identified by it? In other words who does not become a tool to a mind they made to tool the minds of others?

          No one complains when they believe they benefit from illusion – but bitter is the hate of those who find themselves deceived! But they bought into it, or extended blind trust to ‘experts’ or allowed a drift into a habituated auto-pilot of inattention and lack of care.

          It is often observable that the attempted escape from or denial of a negative is presented as if itself positive. Perhaps to such a degree that the positive becomes (like a Stockholm syndrome) a mitigation of the negative in which the lesser evil is ‘loved’ because it allows survival or persistence of a sense of self – even as captive to a loveless abduction. Or “I love you (give allegiance) because you are not hurting me”

          The idea of ‘self’ can thus be socially and culturally defined within an ever shifting narrative evasions. For who wants to turn and look to see a lack of substance behind or beneath them?

          Self-interest is always operating, but the definition of self is the interpretive layer of filtering and distortion that can and does usurp a genuine and present relational awareness.

          The idea of who and what we are – what life is and is for – is obstructive when fixed down, claimed as an identity in possession and defended against the nature of life itself.

          A positive alignment in life – as opposed to masking a negative in positive forms – is truly lived to be uncovered, recognised and accepted by acting or living from it. This seems unimaginable from the mind of a profound distrust if not hatred of life that seeks to enslave, control or replace life with manual interventions. Hence all true responsibilities are replaced by systemic rules.

          There is always a baby in the bathwater. It is not wrong to want a better world. But the non-recognition of the world as an interpretive layering of augmented or indeed virtual reality distortion is usually only applied to others – who must then be ‘educated’ retrained or removed from the stock etc.

          The way to grow something is by appreciation, and the way to release something no longer wanted or meaningful is by non use.
          While we focus in what we don’t want – and indeed what we hate or fear – we are using it in support of something we are extending appreciation or worth-ship to. But experiencing as if subjected to irritation or attack that then validates our response.
          Because to come out and attack first as simply an expression of a private or personal wish, would not attract support – but antipathy.

          Nonetheless attacking first is the best defence of the one-up-man-ship of power struggle – and can do so by any manner of deceit over the projection of false witness – invested with persuasive belief.

          Regardless our ‘education’ – we are all capable of discerning when we are truly seen or heard and yet because of our ‘education’ we are all capable of believing the untrue when it supports what we want to be true (or want not to be true).

          Self-honesty is a different order than inductive processes of education – in that the same issue applies. We can recognize truth, and yet can also not want to see or know what does not support our sense of self, strategy and survival, and so will ‘know’ something else.

          In my understanding it matters not whether the deceit is via others or my ‘own thinking’ because the response is to seek correction of a false in its release to the true.
          But the release is freely willing and not a blaming denial of reactive differentiation.

          Sovereign will or the idea that the will is sovereign, is in my view, the true power.
          But the usurping of the true will by a mind divided against itself is a presentation of power seeking to be made real. But to succeed in killing, denying or replacing the will, is death.

          Will vibrates desire. By which we are movement in fulfilment. If fear differentiates from movement of life it operates inhibition, control, that polarises to loss of control.
          Once fear replaces communication, the past is interjected upon whatever would be in movement and communication is lost to the ritual re-enactment of ‘power’ as ‘self’.

          I have no sense that the old dog will learn new tricks, but that the new grows by shared willingness and appreciation despite and because of the old dog’s tricks. Because a trick revealed is no longer working concealed.

          The old mind of trickery always adopts new forms for the same old trick and we are baited over and again by triggered reaction to the carrot and the stick – that seem to be choices – but operate the same self-illusion.

          The power of self-illusion is also the power of aligned illusion – that is of experience reflective to a true quality of appreciation. Only the active purpose is different. In other words, the mind can be re-trained to align in presence rather than assert a presentation over a fear of lack of presence. If we do not like our result, reward or world, we should not blame our tools, but identify the purpose that was actively identified and embodied by its tools.

          Purpose is another term for spirit, but conflicted spirit is meaningless or indeed an attack on meaning as if to be the censor or determiner of truth. To make truth a weapon or private possession is to have dissociated from awareness of truly being.

          • @Binra

            I find your comments very interesting, not least in that I don’t fully understand them. But ‘fullness’ of understanding was always a misguided pursuit or notion. We all come from different backgrounds, histories, cultures and perspectives but I feel that we all share at least some fundamental principles. I am no great fan of our current limited democracies and institutions but unfortunately they are all we currently have and I am loathe to surrender them to supposed supranational technocrats and experts who have continually proved themselves to be wrong. You seem to have a very spiritual and poetic approach to the world which is understandable but hard to translate into real politics. We must carry on trying in our different ways I suppose because what else is there?

            • True witness – which I like to also call true with-ness, is also true worship – or worth-ship. Being true to ourself is then a basis to give into a living relationship that is uncovered from a true sharing – rather than attempt to use relationships Others) merely for getting self-reinforcement.

              This is of course communication as a basis for self. life and culture – but is largely replaced by defences that are no less weaponised and marketized than our ‘world writ large’. Its all about what ‘we can get’ – which is expressive of a presumption of lack, and under threat, seeking power, of possession and control.

              What does it profit us to gain a fake world at expense of truly felt and shared meaning?

              The principle of relational being is what is missing from systems of getting – no matter how cleverly they may take on the forms of virtue. Even if the technocratic-corporo-globalism was well intentioned, it would be undermining life in the attempt to replace it – and induce allegiance, compliance and conformity rather than freely willing cooperation. But it has an underbelly in the mindset of control – that breaks its own communication channels to protect itself from perceived weakness that actually listening introduce into an allegiance to power by whatever means necessary.
              Because if it has no power in the current way of thinking – it does not exist!

              If something is truly worthy, why would we need to be manipulated, propagandised, coerced or tricked into it?
              There are profound lies or reversals in which the hateful is presented as loving – and the love is presented as hate. Love of truth is no basis for politics by deceit – and so there IS no love nor truth in the politics of vindicated hate or justifies and necessary sacrifice of life (others) to protect the ‘Economy’, or any other terms for the thought system upon which such a power depends and persists in.

              My sense of spirituality is innate rather than painted on – and so already in play – as exactly what we are being the experience of. The beliefs and definitions we are giving acceptance and priority result in the world we experience in perception and response. As such they have a momentum of conditioned reaction, that persists in ever shifting forms until our underlying presumptions are brought to question and revealed to be unfounded or untrue.

              THIS allows the movement of a true desire. For if we have been deceived – WHAT is true?

              This is impossible to communicate to the presumption of a separateness from life or from being. It is too engaged to notice or give worth and welcome to anything not useful to its ‘struggle’ or ‘identity’. Fear-division thus blocks and usurps the true function of mind as a sense of (split off) separateness that presumes its life is separate and must protect separateness as its salvation from a hidden fear that is no less guarded than the ‘deep state’ fragmentation behind a notional security.

              Choice between illusions initially sets up invested identity in one set off against another, and yet the capacity of choice brought to conscious awareness becomes the means to wake from them. It is our remaining freedom in a world that has replaced freedom with a false promise that never delivers.

              A vote and a voice and a witness is thus more than a quantitative particle in a mass demographic, when it is the choice to NOT invest in false or deceitful narratives and beliefs.
              An leave EU vote is not in itself a vote for freedom – but it can be if that is its awakened purpose and responsibility – as an alignment in freedom of communicated outcomes instead of surrender to blind systemic powerlessness.

              It is not uncommon for ‘ruling elites’ to judge others unworthy as an escape from their own (lack of substance) in social reinforcements of self-specialness. In fact we all have a ‘judge’ that presumes to react to others as if they really are what we associate them with and project onto them.
              And one such is the division of predators or meat – which is a variation on kill or be killed. For such a belief system to find acceptance and currency of use and exchange in those who are making decisions that affect others who are not given any real voice in such decisions OR the structures by which they are made, is a hen-house run by foxes.

              Yes we all give from where we are – as part of a whole greater than the sum of parts. Even the ‘negatives’ are valid feedback to a willingness for truth – as the basis for a true anything.

        • Makropulos says

          Your words make perfect sense to me, Simon. What really gets to me is that I have seen decades of a swing to the right with ruthless and relentless privatisation, deregulation, stripping of public assets, hammering of life conditions etc. – all of these following on logically from Thatcher’s shrewd boast that Tony Blair was her greatest achievement i.e. that she had, through Blair, effectively turned Labour into another Tory party. And the proof of this ferocious and constant rightward pull is that when a moderate reformist like Corbyn comes in, the entire mainstream media fly into apoplexy about “the return of the loony left”. And here comes FS to echo the same sentiment albeit with a bit of the requisite “oppositional” presentation.

          • Indeed. Project Fear and Project Anti-Corbyn are two sides of the same Neoliberal coin. I think we need to alert our young people to the fact that ‘Identity Politics’ is not a politics as such as it costs the government and establishment nothing to pursue whilst on the blind side their ultimate main goal is turning everyone into debt slaves.

  5. Frankly Speaking says

    We’ve got so many get-out clauses, we’ve already got a fantastic deal with the EU, it’s madness to leave and get a worse trading deal as a result.

    Social Democrats across Europe are better standing together rather than being ripped apart by the Neocons and Neoliberals. We need a a reformed EU, not to bail out of it and be ripped apart by the US vultures.

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    • mark says

      What Social Democrats? The ones supporting the Abrams Regime Change in Venezuela? Or the Social Democrats who bombed Libya? Or the Social Democrats who staged the coup in Ukraine? Or maybe the Social Democrats agitating for a war with Russia? Yes, how can we possibly live without all those fine Social Democrats?

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      • Frankly Speaking says

        No, those are NOT social democrats. New Labour was Tory. The uDemocrats are Republicans. Momentum are not Social Democrats either.

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        • John says

          That is a social democrat they’re all fraudsters

        • @Frankly Speaking

          In terms of trust, can you please define who precisely the real social democrats are and why?

    • To break from or release allegiance to an ‘unholy alliance’ is the basis from which to make real relationships. Leaving the EU is not anti-european – and to demonise the ‘personal’ instead of addressing the issue is the nature of every breakdown of communication.

      Any stranger seeking power can use sweeteners and threats to get the children into their car, but they alone are the setting the agenda to target your hopes and fears as the vector for using you to enact their private gratifications.

      That power is systematised to a technocratic ‘necessity’ is the car we are already lured into as a result of a worship (sacrifice to) technologism – that equates to marketising and weaponising everything. Not quite King Midas – but the same principle. Such a science is corrupt and corrupting.

      There is no question in my mind of the sense and sanity of seeking and finding international cooperations that are consensual, rather than operating under imposed or manufactured ‘narrative dictate’ masking as a consensus of expertise that does NOT have your interests at heart.

      It is the ‘power structure’ that lies beneath the seeming protections offered, that effects a transfer of power and wealth from people to systems designed and run by system operators.

      Politics as was, cannot begin to address the ills of human social development because they are all contesting within and thus reinforcing, the same definitions of power.

      Legal and financial systems operate regulatory capture and control over the meeting of needs as the subordination of true needs to that of corporate investment and political control operating largely by stealth a guile and supported by a largely manipulated circus of a cover story for a failure of will.

      I call it such because the alignment in the false is the withdrawing of trust and support for the true such that something ‘else’ runs in place of our true desire – and defends its claim with all the power we gave it.

      Recognising the false, leads to stepping away from it as an opening of perspective not available from inside the stranger’s car.

      Re-establishing a basis from which to live, is only possible to the recognition of the false as false. Fear of loss of possession or power (in everyone) operates to export or ‘outsource the blame and pain’ of a learning-failure as if to gain power thereby at the cost that ‘others’ must pay – at least the greater share.

      But fear of losing is no basis from which to live, share in and know life in the living. And union of fear-separated minds does not truly share anything except hate as the basis for power.

      • Frankly Speaking says

        Binra, I full sympathase with your position, very eloquently put. However, the “average voter” does either not understand the fundamentals that we are discussing, or does not wish to undersand them, or else they are way to busy working in low paid jobs and struggling to make ends meet.

        Going back to the 1950s through 80s, my view is that the social democratic model as implemented by the Scandinavian / Nordic countries and even Switzerland, Germany and France, has been unique in its effectiveness in providing its citizens a very robust welfare state, education, health etc, whilst keeping a leash on the unbridled greed of capitalism. It’s influence has wobbled a bit since then, but this model is a proven success if it’s allowed to continue, and / or we revert to it.

        This really all that the majority of citizens wish for. Given the right parties in power, Britain with its European partners could together go some way to restore social democracy, however, outside of the EU we have no chance, we’ll be torn apart by the neoliberal wolves in no time at all.

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        • A long as everyone looks to see what everyone else is doing, so long with everyone choose to be stuck at the same place and call it the human condition.
          That different versions of political systems are rolled out into different regions is another way of framing in a technocratic system of politics that seems to be either neutral or aligned with the sacred – as in trojan horse.

          But a key fact here is the shift from relational communication and initiative to systemised behaviour modification or social engineered ‘delivery of service’. Welcome to post truth robotics Inc.

          I am not writing from a desire to impact or manipulate opinion and so within that framing I am meaningless. But that is also to say that I find that framing not only meaningless but operating at cost of the truly meaningful.

          The nature of identity theft is a usurping or dispossession. Operating within the frame-up to regain what was lost is to invest in the frame as real, necessary or the only basis from which to think, perceive and respond.

          I cannot share this to any anyone who is not already moving in the willingness to open or accept it – regardless of any other factors.

          The recognising and releasing of the false is an entirely different order than the attempt to attack the false as if thereby to become more ‘true’, powerful or right. Until the latter is recognised as self-perpetuating negative reinforcement it operates as the power to protect a hidden correspondence with the hated in the attempt to expunge or get rid of it onto scapegoats and enemies or in fact anyone and anything else.

          The social construct is a kind of acquired ‘conspiracy’ of totems and taboos by which to somewhat keep the hateful out of mind by a process of re-distrubution of guilt and penalty.
          In my understanding there IS no out of mind – unless we split from life and others, to operate as if a mind apart, in secret behind the masking smile or justified irritability of countless ‘attacks’ on our separateness as if that is our peace.

          So yes this is ‘deep’ or rather the world as construct has a surface that runs a narrative continuity regardless of witnesses to a greater reality. But the capacity to recognize a habit that does not serve us and drop it for a desire to align in that which does is a ‘no brainer’ in that it is when the mind of self-justifiction wears out or is exhausted, that sudden insight breaks through. If this is them merely marketized and weaponised to stay in the game with a better hand, then it is because fear of change is yet greater than love of truth and hides in the forms of truths as a delay of a feared inevitability.

          On another level, I see that we all live not merely in bodies in a world and etc, but in what has been called a gestalt or field of influence that is pervasive and invisible to the focus that looks only at the foreground or only on forms as if objects are imbued with fixed external or built in meaning.

          The rising tide lifts all boats and the revealing of our mind to a rising awareness is both individual and collective – because our nature is relational and not a thing apart – and so anyone anywhere who aligns in acceptance of an integrative willingness contributes to the whole – as a qualitative gift that has quantitative results because the translation of qualities of life to embodiment in form is the nature of life.

          No amount of targets and checkboxes will ever reverse life such that effects have become cause and created the qualities of being. Yet that is exactly what we are engaged and entangled in as if ‘this time it will be different’ – which is a phrase I read yesterday for the most expensive financial advice ever given, (but has a general applicability).

          While I don’t invest in oppositional terms, I see an enemy to life and our shared conscious embrace in life – but its first trick is to induce us to see it in exclusive terms. Because the hateful in our own mind is felt to condemn or damn us.
          The nature of a phishing attack is to frame a reaction by forms of familiar association so as to manipulate attention, interpretation and response. Once we have lost our Right Mind, we are vulnerable to fears as realities. And acting from these becomes the protection of them against any other reality interpretation or perception.

          The practice side of this theory is abiding through fear rather than succumbing to its temptations so as to revisit its origin and look on it with new eyes – of a willingness for healing – despite all the evidences to the contrary. This is simply beyond anyone’s capacity from the framing of the mind and yet is everyone’s true inheritance restored through the release of the wish to control reality as a thing apart or above it.

          Find our way within life has to uncover common cause regardless our current judgements and perceptions – and that does not mean we are ruled by such thinking so much as feeling our way as an active willingness that seeks for and shares with others – in forms or demeanour that can be accepted, or shared if only in seed form – because not everyone is willing or ready to face what they had always sought to turn their face away from – and yet in such a world – it is coming up in our ‘face’ regardless and perhaps the more so because of the attempt to deny it.

          Debts coming home may seem to damn us – or to vindicate a desire for revenge on those that trespass against us.

          Another way of seeing the deconstruction of a world-view or identity, is of dying while still alive. Not the living death of a zombie capture to a provision of unconsciousness, but living through the death of what I deeply thought and therefore felt myself and my world to be. I cannot ask anyone to open to what they are not the willingness of, but I can grow in the willingness that is already extended to those who come after and gratitude for those who have gone before.

          I regard ‘brexit’ as an infantilising term – in keeping with a ‘media narrative psyop’ of seeking to deny or delay the consciousness of what we have in a sense ‘become’. Since 911, fear has been ramped up as a closing down of consciousness. the truth it would deny is not so much who and how but to in any case persist in conscious extension of the appreciation for existence – in any/every such opportunity and especially with regard to those we are given to judge against because that is where we give power away (to a hate that then runs as shadow power).

          When I was young I was warned by my Nan that if I pulled ‘ugly’ faces, they would stick if the wind changed.
          So ‘be careful or what we wish for’ and thus become conditioned to believe, because the wind is changing such as to bring change itself into even the best laid plans.

          People are so much more than they show in various public situations. Generalising people into categories is a sort of managerial presumption. I haven’t got to live any one else’s life, nor have I the strengths and liabilities of their particular experience. And nor will I likely meet who anyone is, though the social patterns of what might be called a blame culture. But all the hate is coming up – to be revisited and undone, step by step? Or to a conflagration? Or to a systemic redefinition in terms of ever deeper entanglement in human degradation – with a movie running on top of course.

    • There are no “get out clauses”. The EU has written neoliberalism into law, they don’t have to do a thing now, corporations do the rest just like Virgin did, taking the NHS to court and winning because a contract was not given to them.
      To claim otherwise is lying.

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      • mark says

        Tell the Greeks/ Italians/ Spaniards/ Irish about “get out clauses.”
        Brussels dislikes their elected governments, so it just send round a few of its functionaries to take over and rule those countries in their place. It doesn’t like the Italian budget so it just tears it up. It doesn’t like Spanish Cabinet appointments so it orders Madrid to change them. It orders Dublin to privatise water against the wishes of the entire population.
        Some get out.

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        • Frankly Speaking says

          Once a country signs up for the Euro there can be no get out clauses for them, a single currency cannot allow that. I’m pro EU but against the Euro and a federal state, these viewpoints are not mutually exclusive.

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    • Tom says

      Absolutely. Brexit is divide-and-rule directed by the elites, which is masquerading as a democratic, grassroots movement. We should seek unity with our fellow Europeans.

  6. Robbobbobin says

    People’s vote? Pity they didn’t get some people to vote the first time round. Would have saved an awful lot of kerfuffle.

  7. mark says

    Is this an example of Corbyn bowing to pressure?
    Yes. Old Jezza has always been lukewarm about the Common Market/ EEC/ EU/ coming European Superstate.
    For the same reasons as Tony Benn. Whatever social democratic elements it may have formerly espoused in the 60s/ 70s, it is now solely a vehicle for powerful vested interests, the 0.1%, to impose austerity on the great mass of working people and further enrich themselves at their expense. It is a profoundly corrupt, anti democratic, remote, bureaucratic regime. Anyone who doubts that characterisation should consider its recent treatment of Greece, Italy, Spain, Ireland and eastern European countries. Brussels simply ignored the results of general elections and sent its functionaries to rule over Italy, Greece and Spain in place of their elected leaders. Cabinet appointments in Spain were vetoed by Brussels. The Italian budget was vetoed by Brussels diktat. It is a similar story in Ireland. Dublin was ordered to privatise its water utility although there was zero support for doing so from either public or politicians. The Polish, Hungarian, Czech and Slovakian governments have been subjected to imperious demands and vitriolic attacks from Brussels. This trend will accelerate with the creation of a centralised EU Superstate, with elected national governments being reduced to the status of irrelevant and compliant flunkeys. A Jezza government could simply see its Budget and cabinet appointments vetoed by Brussels, with an EU bureaucrat moving in to Downing Street. Any Labour industrial policy, support for the steel industry, for example, would just be prohibited. Jezza has been in a very weak position since he was elected. 80% of the PLP are Blairite Backstabbers, including most of his Cabinet, who have constantly sought to undermine him. There have been 2 failed assassination attempts. He has been the subject of a protracted, well funded, vitriolic smear campaign from the Backstabbers, the MSM, City, Deep State, Spooks and Tories, coordinated and led by the Board of Deputies and Israeli Embassy. It is surprising that he has survived at all, not that he has caved in and been forced to reverse the previous official policy of accepting the result of the 2016 referendum.

    What is the likely result of a referendum?
    Difficult to say. Holding it at all could provoke such resentment as to produce the same outcome. Or it could produce a Remain result by a small margin. It would depend on the wording and choices offered. Millions of Leavers could be enraged, with a revitalised UKIP on the rampage with energised leadership, winning millions of votes again. Only one thing is certain – it would not settle the issue. It is simply too divisive. This is not going away. The Remainers and EU strategy from the outset has been to sabotage the referendum result and make the process of leaving so unnecessarily difficult and exhausting that people accept continued EU membership out of frustration. This is unlikely to succeed.

    Is Britain staying in the EU?
    Does this make a Labour Government more/ less likely?
    Will Corbyn face a leadership challenge?

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    • mark says

      Is Britain staying in the EU?
      The most likely outcome is BRINO, Brexit in name only, with Britain staying in the single market, tariffs regime, with continuing EU interference and control over our economy and political life. A few cosmetic changes, with none of the benefits of leaving. Any future trade deals vetoed by Brussels. Continued primacy of the European Court. We will just be paying Brussels a lump sum of £40 billion, instead of £50 million a day, as at present, to add to the £500 billion (£500,000,000,000) already paid by Britain. Think what could have been done with that £500 billion over the years.

      Does this make a Labour government more or less likely?
      Very much less. Millions of Labour voters across its traditional heartlands voted for Brexit. Often by 60-70%. They will feel cheated, which is hardly surprising, because they have been. Millions of Brexit Tories will feel the same way. A revitalised UKIP/ Brexit party could tap in to the millions of disgruntled leavers, and emerge as the new force, not the Blairite TIGgers. It will represent the Backstabbers reasserting control over Labour, just as Trump has been hamstrung by the Deep State. We could see mass resignations from the party, with Momentum forming some kind of breakaway rump. This won’t resolve anything. It will just perpetuate the problems. Britain is becoming increasingly turbulent and unstable, with public support and tolerance of the elites ruling over us dwindling away rapidly.

      Will Corbyn face a leadership challenge?
      It doesn’t matter. If he stays, he will just be a powerless figurehead. Probably not, as there have been 2 failed assassination attempts already. The TIG was just intended as an alternative to this, the culmination of the “Corbyn is a communist spy/ terrorist/ anti semite/ delete as appropriate” smears. He would retain some value as leader to the Tories/ Deep State/ MSM etc. as a bogeyman to re elect a Tory government. There will probably be further resignations in the near future.

      A few other thoughts.
      The issue is so divisive that no second referendum or other sleight of hand will put it to rest. This will run and run. Very few people on either side of the argument are going to be satisfied with the outcome, whatever it is.
      With its increasing centralisation and imperial pretensions, the EU could collapse under its own weight anyway. There might be nothing left to be a member of. The euro is a disaster. Many large economies, Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, are in free fall. German banks are looking very shaky. A financial collapse on a 1929 scale is on the cards. It is no longer possible to paper over the cracks of the cultural divide between Brussels and the Eastern European states.

      It looks like we are fated to live in interesting times.

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    • Frankly Speaking says

      There’s a whole lot of difference between the rules and needing to enforce them within a common currency zone versus the rest. Using the same currency as your neighbour, you’ve already ceded your financial control to the common central bank, that’s a huge amount to give away.

      Britain and Poland and a few others have kept their currencies and are doing better and are in a different place regarding control / sovereignty. We’ve got so many get-out clauses, we’ve already got a fantastic deal with the EU, it’s madness to leave and get a worse trading deal as a result.

      Social Democrats across Europe are better standing together rather than being ripped apart by the Neocons and Neoliberals. We need a a reformed EU, not bail out of it and be ripped apart by the US vultures.

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      • mark says

        Staying in means declining into irrelevance on the fringes of a failing, remote, corrupt, anti democratic, bureaucratic nightmare of a Superstate incapable of reforming itself. This is our one chance of getting out. Otherwise we will be trapped in this Alice In Wonderland creation for ever. This is our last chance of getting out and plotting a coherent escape. If we blow it, this country is finished.

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        • mark says

          Well over 200 MEPs are bankrolled by Soros – they are in his pocket.

        • Tom says

          The reason Rees-Mogg, Johnson, May and their bosses want the UK to leave the EU is because they do not want to reform the UK. Leave the EU we would be condemned to become a plaything for their ilk, and you can be sure our rigged electoral system and undemocratic institutions would only solidify without the checks and balances of EU membership.

          • @Tom

            You do not appear to understand the principles of democracy (its a shabby thing at present I will grant you but we shouldn’t give up on it in principle). Leaving the EU does not consign us to a dictatorship by JRM or the Tories. Why is it especially in JRM’s interests to leave the EU? Because he’s involved with a hedge fund? Hedge funds are designed to make money on either side of outcomes that’s their very nature. Given the level of corruption in general in the world, JRM can make just as much money whether we stay in the EU or not.

            The whole point is that our political future is up to us. Outside of the EU we can impose whatever rules we want or not. We can impose higher standards than the EU across the board. We can elect a socialist government and JRM is well aware of that fact, indeed I think many of the right are resigned to that conclusion. JRM will campaign against Corbyn and will voice his opposition and rightly so, just as it was always paramount that John Smith should have voiced his opposition to unrestrained neoliberal capitalism but his untimely departure and Blair put paid to that hope. JRM actually believes passionately in democracy. If Corbyn and a social democratic government is elected he will not like that outcome but he will accept that democratic outcome because that’s how democracy works and that is what is important. If anything JRM is a fool for wanting to leave the EU because as a Neoliberal construct it rules out the very possibility of socialism. Its in JRM’s financial interests to remain in a corrupted EU and a corrupted Westminster and yet he thinks democracy is important enough to leave the EU and risk the ‘threat’ of socialism.

      • You’re for the status quo in the short term. If you understand economics, you will know that the Euro isn’t tenable long term. The only thing that will save it is federation. So countries like Poland and UK will, at some point, be asked to join or leave. However, federation brings it’s own problems, a lot of countries reject it, just as Britain would reject it, so there won’t be a European Union of 27, there will (probably) be a federation of around 6 countries. That means Germany will no longer be able to export its unemployment to the poorer nations, which will not be acceptable to the German people, WHO CURRENTLY HAVE BY FAR THE BEST DEAL IN THE EU.

        Which ever way you look at it, there is trouble ahead and I can’t see any scenario where we are better off staying.
        Also your reliance on social democracy rescuing Europe from itself is naive to say the least. Germany will never be anything other than very conservative, the eastern states are moving steadily towards fascism, all the rest have right wing governments apart from Portugal (even Greece is by definition right wing because of enforced supply side economics). As for future members, Ukraine is already full blooded fascist and the EU has neoliberalism written in law that would require the scrapping of ever treaty from Maastricht onward.

        Long term the EU has no future. I have just listed a few political/economic problems without going into the social deprivations caused by fixed budgets, favourable to none except Germany. Then there’s the geopolitical direction of travel and a very unhealthy reliance on American foreign policy and NATO strategy. Remainers like yourself try and paint Brexit as a right wing ERG project……it isn’t, its common sense.

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        • garyaz says

          Bravo Lundeil. I’m not sure many middle class remainers understand the depths of contempt & loathing some of us can have for both the neoliberal Tories and fantasist status-quo defending left-libs.
          Voting Leave was a glorious two-fingered salute to this unholy alliance-its forced them to self-expose themselves as intolerant tribal Ideologues.

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        • Martin Usher says

          I like your arguments but I think you’re overlooking one possibility. There’s no reason why the UK can’t be as productive and prosperous — and so as powerful — as Germany. The reason it isn’t is purely political; the priorities of the people who set policy are those of traders and bankers with industry pretty much left to fend for itself. Its quite likely once the crisis is past the country will revert to the way its always been but its also possible that this entire Brexit thing has opened the eyes of the population to who’s governing them and exactly what they’re priorities are. Real change is possible.

    • davemass says

      Will Ref #2 give a different result?
      I think it will be even more for Leave-
      The treatment of EU to us, and Italy, Spain,Portugal, Greece etc.
      shows their real colours.
      We’ll be the Bolshie b**tards like WWII, and say NO.
      Don’t forget there were Tories then ready to do a deal with Hitler.
      Nothing changes…

  8. DunGroanin says

    I am actually going to cite two Graun articles that are relevant. The first by the strident and always on point Chakrobotty, which is a fine piece pathfinding for the labour tactical attack, on the position to take ONCE the election is declared and they can openly declare for a remain choice if elected.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/25/labour-aids-tory-brexit-destroyed

    The second, by the prospective candidate to remove IDS from a long held Tory seat that was Churchills and Tebbits, which she and the grassroots made great inroads into at the last ‘snap’ and foreshortened election. This is indicative of how these campaigners didn’t stop campaigning, knowing how close they came and how with a few more weeks they would have won. Such is happening all across the country. Even in the shires that didn’t get any chance of a campaign in 2017.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/25/labour-new-politics-mps-independent-group

    Remember there was only a total of 800,000 votes between the two parties. And probably a combined 15,000 across a dozen seats would have seen the tories trounced, including May and Heard amongs other dinosaurs.

    The msm went into meltdown this evening – playing the Hizbollah card, while pretending that Labour had succombed to the pressure of the funny tinge group.
    No they are not a party as the fuckwit quoted says in his tweet above. The whole Brexit bus has fallen to bits and got wobbly wheels as they try and get it over the line, so close…

    The meetings that Labour had in Europe are not reported. The commonality of genuine social democratic grassroots flowering through Europe is ignored. Spains elections will restore the socialists there in April. As will ours. As will the French. The EU elections will see more.

    The brexiteers made a major mistake when they did their snatch job – they forgot they were only supposed to blow the doors off!

    Instead they unleashed the democratic instincts and desires of the young and the old – who had been weaned off voting by succesive neolib governments and controlled parties. The boundary changes are rendered ineffective by the increased participation. Of course the Cabinet Office will know this as do all the pollsters or Admen.

    So if we are left with broken eggs and a surfit of lemons we know what to do, ok?

    Remember Labour cannot stop Brexit or deal with Austerity, NHS privatisation, Student fees, affordable housing, etc if they are not in government. And that won’t happen without an election. And that won’t happen withou a no-confidence vote, which requires the funny tinged tories and another dozen more of them to vote for it! They are in checkmate and must walk the walk not just talk it!

    A good days work and even Wattos shut up about AS!

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  9. Perhaps the result that is overlooked is that if one doesn’t align in a choice for freedom, then we condition ourselves to no longer believe in it and so are framed to think in system managed narratives.
    I see ‘brexit’ – Britain’s opportunity to leave the EU – as many things – some of which are already mentioned above.
    I don’t see it as a bottom up populist movement – but more the intent to use such a movement as part of a reconfiguring Europe of toward a globalist technocratic agenda in which binding contractual ‘trade’ deals, mesh with environmental (sic) medical (sick) and other coopted masking of apparently positive, protective or necessary cover stories to induce the release of the will from the mind, rather than its suppression.
    Aligning in freedom is recognising our cover story and voting not to use it.
    The cover stories of the world are – for many – disintegrating as a result of being seen rather than reacted to as true.
    Like a bad dream that literally starts breaking up – while the dreamer stirs.

    The mind is f=cked such that no one can think outside a corporate box – where the nature of the corporate structure is become predatory or at least ‘backwards’.

    That mind has to be observed – from another point – from the stirring of the dreamer even while identifying in character – and yet the nature of the dream was always some form of self-special cover story ‘made real’.

    I read some Ivan Illich recently – and while he can be hard to read – he offers a critique that runs beneath invested identities, that may become recognisable and and relevant to the disintegrating identities of a false and destructive world-view.

    I don’t see the outer signs of new vision – but I do see the sickness of the old – in all of its shifting forms, polarities and patterns.

    I vote for at least the possibility of people having a voice that is being heard – rather than data-anylysed for further manipulation. A technocratically orchestrated EU sets all the parameters for our apparent rights’ without any process of transparency and accountability.
    NO Thanks!
    To be broken off from EU in order to be used by the nominally US based global agenda is no freedom either – but that still hasn’t been ratified into law as yet – and so ‘yellow vestments’ against a national government hold more promise than shouting Greek at the german bankers.

    In any moment of choice – being conscious as to what we align in is growing consciousness. To look only at the hoped or feared outcomes is a complete lack of self-trust. Into this ‘vacuum’ pours the power exchange of willing conscious purpose for a cover story over a fear of life that makes living hollow and a world in which “Everything is BACKWARDS; everything is upside down! Doctors destroy health, Lawyers destroy justice, Universities destroy knowledge, Governments destroy freedom, Major media destroys information, And religions destroy spirituality”. (Michael Ellner).

    Leaving the EU is not in itself living from an alignment in freedom. And those who defend slavery AS freedom can only see freedom as slavery.
    All the political ‘front end’ is masking over.
    Identity investment in the masquerade can ONLY vote as designated or framed.
    Because the vote is operating the framing of the mind unless using it for a different purpose – ie of unframing the mind to freedom of moving in alignment with being. With the ‘will’ rather than an enslavement or sacrifice of the will to false idol or ideal.

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  10. Glasshopper says

    I abstained last time and decided to accept the winner (which i was convinced would be remain by a landslide). I then became a Brexiteer, spurned on daily by the vile snobbery of most CIF commentators who really are the scum of the earth.
    The great myth among remainers, is that a win for remain would take Britain back to those “happy” days before the first referendum. However the EU has already moved way beyond what many remainers i know found barely palatable then, towards ever greater federalization. If we don’t leave soon we will say goodbye to what is left of our democracy.

    In other words, the case for leaving is vastly stronger than it was 3 years ago.

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  11. Fair dinkum says

    Britain’s got Brexit and the Tories.
    The US has got Trump and the military industrial complex.
    Could it be the energy of Karma balancing the books?

  12. John2o2o says

    I was a Remainer the first time around. If it happens again I will, however I am likely to vote Leave.

    Leavers have nothing to fear. They have a chance to confirm the result of the first referendum without being subject to accusations of propagandising the populace with lies such as the £350k per week for the NHS.

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  13. Salford Lad says

    If it is true that Labour are to support a 2nd Referendum, there will be a stampede from the Labour Party. The main recipient will be Nigel Farage and his Brexit Party.
    None dare call it Treason and contempt for the electorate..

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  14. John Jeffery says

    Brexit means freedom. The UK should be anchoring the Silk Road’s western terminus. Europe is too involved in Zionist globallism and grovelling to the Yanks.
    Nord stream 2 will cause the fragmentation of Europe anyway, as Germany at last joins hands with the Russians.
    The $US empire is finished. It is time for new alliances.

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    • Frankly Speaking says

      Delusional, clueless, Marxist nonsense.

      Brexit is a right wing project to tear Britain from Europe, divide and conquer is their game plan. Britain will be even more a poodle of the US after March 29.

      7
      26
      • Francis Lee says

        Like the EU isn’t a poodle of the US already?! The EU-Nato bloc has established a vassal occupation of Europe. What makes you think that membership of the EU will allow the UK to have a say in its economic and foreign policy?

        16
        2
      • Tim Jenkins says

        Frankly, if you want to pigeon-hole, then i believe that the whole societal purpose of Brexit & Trump , & Grexit supporters , (skewered by Neo-con moderate leftist & centrists like Tsipras, who 62% instructed NO/OXI by referendum), was to show the world how to focus finally on getting your own house in order first, to take back control of governance & regional sovereignty (& commence with accountability), that has been entirely usurped by Deep State forces in Government and their Ashkenazi Corporatist Fake Stream Media & in the EU & US.

        I think most people were finally fed up with being fed BS excuses as to why electoral & societal problems @home never get sorted, even addressed, whilst waging Hypocritical Sanctimonious War for Resources & Corporate control of sovereignty elsewhere, to prop up failed anachronistic empirical ponzi design systems & @home !

        Your reference to Marxists & Trotskyists demonstrates to me that you have not been following the swing in mood of societal change, Frankly Speaking, when you should have recognised long before 2008 what was actually going down at the Federal Reserve Bank, with “Socialism for the Rich” (Stiglitz) , when they created magically, in 5 working days, under an atmosphere of “Palpable Fear” (Tim Geithner) a mere
        $16.2 TRILLION bucks >>>

        Stop bucking the point of Brexit & shirking responsibility by pigeon-holing and blaming Trotskyists & Marxists, when you & your ilk of moderate friends are completely morally & financially bankrupt in comprehension, let alone for ideas regarding solutions in every sense. Your mocking of Maduro shows that you understand even less of the Geo-Political nuances in Spiel, than USUK politicians, or some would say the FUKUS political scene, including Macron ! Vivre le Frexit . . . !

        No worries, China will back Russia & Maduro in turn, militarily if necessary, all the way to Caracas, while you are frankly s{peaking} still considering what went wrong with USUK & FUKUS and how it came into being that you all ended up financially bankrupt, forget the morals, coz’ by mocking Maduro, you clearly don’t care to respect a majority electoral vote, with a voting system far superior to USUK & FUKUS combined . . .

        The Brits & Yanks deserve everything that is happening & will happen to them, in a matter of hours. Their failure to respond to all indicators from societal to financial, is indicative of their decayed arrogant imperialistic perverted notions of murderous grandeur (sic), resting on laurels & decadent attitudes, frankly speaking 🙂 The hell hole is entirely of your own creation, by failure to address and take serious concern & political action, back in 2008 and >>> in reality, the moment that WTC 7 collapsed without a single airplane hitting it & it denied the Laws of Physics: and the fact that the BBC knew & announced the collapse almost 30 minutes in advance of the event: were you sleeping, frankly ? The naive & stupid one should be clear to you by now and let me assure you it is not the wealth of readers @OffG.

        ” When the lights go out in the West , the ‘Light’ shall shine on the East ”

        Hopefully, you’ll very soon finally understand the cultural differences, with more respect for other cultures and stop hurling around dimwitted old childish anachronistic Tags & Labels on pigeon-holes that bare no relevance to the world today: frankly , you sounded like a Guardian journalist screaming “Fascism & Nazi & Anti-Semite”, from dimwits like Freedland, who believes in SKY & Murdoch ? How would you label Freedland, today ? a journalist ? Lol . . .

        Then we have Suzanne Moore, even more hilarious ??journalism??, to demonstrate the decay i feel you just represented with your superficial comment. Don’t worry it’s not a long read, in fact the Guardian begging for money request, after the article is in fact LONGER than the article itself !

        Paid Article 314 words compared Begging for money 358 !
        Words cannot suffice to describe the following laughable decadence & utter cowardice to confront >>>
        reality & speak truth to power.

        https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/25/what-lunch-with-the-pm-taught-me-her-dullness-disguises-a-dangerous-power-mania

        The hell hole you refer to arrived long ago, disguised, and guys like you just would not listen in your comfort zones. You get what you voted for, a societal danger & power mania totally out of control & removed from the electorate, with a ramped up surveillance state, while you were sleeping: and some of us have even been warning all you “moderates & leftist centrists” for decades !

        The buck stops > Brexit is 4real > get your own house in order, wherever you may live, before the feral faecal matter strikes the rotating oscillator and stop blaming your pet pigeon holes, instead start thinking solutions. Activate Serious Solutions, movement > ASS 4short 🙂

        Begin with studying who actually financed Marx & Trotsky/Lenin & Hitler … & Ukrainian Fascists !
        Then consider ways to circumvent history repeating & ‘The Lobby’ !!!
        in European Sovereign Nations, today …
        respecting each others’ cultures & order, in houses of regional representation,
        & then accept the irrefutable & inexorable science of societal change, going forwards.

        As somebody who has lived in Europe since 1990, i can hardly wait a day longer for the inevitable pre-programmed collapse to happen, finally to teach moderate centrists & leftists to listen up
        & kick ASS into gear 🙂 & wake up & stop blaming others.
        Where do you live, frankly speaking ?

        Lol, that appalling journalism from a moderate leftist & centrist lazy decadent & cowardly Suzanne Moore linked above, begs the jesting whine & rhyme >>>

        “Please Sir, (frankly speaking) can i have some moooore . . . ?”

        Sense the intonation ?

        Of course Brexit is ‘Worth it’ , if nothing else, just to put a cat amongst the pigeons & pigeon holes of yesteryear and people still living in the last ‘ Century of the Self ‘ and get everybody to start studying Energy Return on Energy Invested EROEI >>>

        invest some energy in thinking differently & consuming less feral faecal matter from ‘The Lobby’ !

        15
        3
        • Frankly Speaking says

          Some excellent points Tim.

          However, you completely mis-charaterise me and indeed incorrectly pigeon hole me yourself, It starts at “while you are frankly s{peaking} still considering what went wrong with USUK & FUKUS and how it came into being that you all ended up financially bankrupt…..”

          I fully understand that we live in a broken system and the reasons for it, i fully agree with you. However, Brexit is not the answer, neither is Marxism. Traditional social democracy and cooperation is the answer.

          We are stronger staying with our European friends and stronger in working together towards removing the neoliberals. Being divided we are conquered.

          The Jillet Jaunes (Yellow Vests) are from across the political spectrum, but they are rapidly diminishing support because violence is not the answer. Le Pen is more likely to win the next election than is Melenchon.

          In Britain right wing Kippers are more likely win the next election than Corbyn. I like Corbyn as a person and his quest for peat, I’m a pacifist myself, but allowing the militant left to pervade the party is suicidal in the long run.

          I could go on, but I’ll conclude that I’m a passionate pacifist and social democrat who despises neoliberalism as much as the “solutions” of the far left. With a lot of hard work Britain and Europe can roll back neoliberalism, we are stronger together.

          4
          11
      • mark says

        That must be why all the right wing City, Deep State, Spooks and MSM are so rabidly hostile to it.
        Obviously some kind of fiendishly cunning plan, nothing at all to do with 17.4 million people.

        17
      • mark says

        How could Britain possibly be more of a US poodle than it is already???

        7
        1
        • Frankly Speaking says

          Mark – More of a US poodle by having a free trade agreement with them that would decimate our agriculture, financial services and health services. Then add to that ERGs wet dream of joining NAFTA. We’d then might as well just join the USA as one of their States. That’s how.

    • John2o2o says

      “Brexit means freedom”? Lol. That’s delusional bollocks. I will vote leave – I’m not a big fan of the EU, but Brexit does not mean freedom. I guarantee, your life will not greatly improve.

      • Don’t wait for freedom. The improvement of life rests on what we are actively choosing now. So many seemingly promising carrots turn into the same old stick.

        If freedom is dangling on a stick or in attempt to escape one, then it will always be somewhere you are not. I guarantee you the parameters or qualities of living will align with the purpose you hold and accept true for you.

        Of course you are right that brexit does not mean freedom in and of itself – because we give all the meaning it has for us. But if we don’t align in the freedom we have, we cannot grow the recognition of meanings given to our world and our relationships that are not true.

        Doublespeak operates as if to mean quite differently from its ‘face value’.
        Few want the responsibility that freedom simply is – and are therefore willing to buy into substitutions of complex diversions, insulations or evasions.

        But if what is simply ours cannot leave us – then it is a matter of when we stop dissociating.
        We cannot in fact be free of the consequences of our active choice – and this is no less true when choices are ‘defaulted to conditioned habit’ running beneath the surface attention.

        So in a sense delusional bollocks is running as our world until we accept that as a starting point of a desire for what is true of us – in this situation, relationship, world – so as to live from that rather than some ideas of what we thought to be or tried to be – or not be.

    • John2o2o says

      “Brexit means freedom”? lol, that’s delusional bollocks. We have a Tory government that wants to go further to the right to align itself with the far right regime in the United States. So Brexit will result in more not less grovelling to the United States, unfortunately.

      With that said, I shall vote leave this time around and not remain as I did before if it happens again. The EU want to f*ck the internet. I cannot support that.

      5
      3
    • Antonym says

      A new alliance, with the Chinese (= Xi)? From the frying pan into the fire.

      2
      1
  15. Gwyn says

    I fail to see how allowing the demented, psychopathic Tories to get their grubby hands on the NHS and sell it off to the Yanks is in keeping with left-wing ideals.

    I do believe I hear the sound of the great Aneurin Bevan turning in his grave.

    15
    5
  16. crank says

    OffG need to put up an update here don’t they?
    The PV option has been Labour policy since the last conference vote on the matter.
    The press release only says that they will follow through with that if their ‘stop no deal, stop May’s deal’ ammendment gets voted down. Which it will most likely.
    Nothing has changed. Yet. Despite everyone going ape.

    13
    2
  17. The full text of Labour’s amendment, to be tabled tomorrow, reads:
    That this House instructs Ministers

    (a) to negotiate with the EU for changes to the Political Declaration to secure:

    (i) a permanent and comprehensive customs union with the EU;

    (ii) close alignment with the single market underpinned by shared institutions and obligations;

    (iii) dynamic alignment on rights and protections;

    (iv) commitments on participation in EU agencies and funding programmes, including in areas such as the environment, education, and industrial regulation; and

    (v) unambiguous agreement on the detail of future security arrangements, including access to the European Arrest Warrant and vital shared databases;

    (b) to introduce primary legislation to give statutory effect to this negotiating mandate;

    6
    2
    • mark says

      Or, translated, “Brexit without the Exit.”

      14
      1
    • Thank you Andrea, you beat me to the post. Yes, the MSM has been quick to misrepresent. Labour’s amendment does NOT mention another vote. And thanks to Skwawkbox for its rapid response in pointing it out. We sure do have to be vigilant.

      11
    • crank says

      I think it will happen though, the amendment will get voted down and the Lab will support a second referendum, options will be May’s (EU’s) Deal or Remain, with A50 extended. At least that looks like the plan, probably with a general election in early summer.
      I wonder if Corbyn is facing dozens of resigations and is basically cornered.

      3
      1
  18. Does anybody else feel that this new independent party and Corbyn finally declaring for a second referendum is just all a little too late and should have emerged over a year ago.

    What really annoys me is how little is said about some of the reasons why some people are all for a no deal without restrictions so that a new trade deal can be set up with America.

    Liam Fox is desperate for a new trade deal with America but you must question why he would like all details to remain secret for at least five years.

    Any deal would require the UK to accept American patent, copyright and intellectual property right laws and if you have never heard of the Monsanto patented pig think again. They would also require the setting up of an international arbitration board staffed by corporate lawyers so that the same corporations could sue governments for lost profits. This would mean that if any government organisation including the NHS did not put out for tender to private organisations then they could sue the government for potential lost profits.

    Mark Carney has already spelt out clearly what a “No Deal” would mean, a large drop in the pound, a large increase in interest rates leading to wide spread defaults on loans. Who would gain, those people who have already moved their money to offshore tax havens and who will return later to buy up everything cheap in the ensuing fire sale.

    Even worse, the same people would like this country to adopt a tax regime so that this country becomes a large tax haven for the very very rich.

    Grim!

    12
    6
    • Denis O'hAichir says

      Other than Monsanto’s pig the EU is going the same way.

    • Frankly Speaking says

      I fully agree Brian, but a hundred Marxists and Trotskyists here may vote you down.

      They naively and stupidly believe that leaving the EU will usher in a Maduran Nirvana whereas the rest of us moderate leftists and centrists know it will become a Neoliberal and Neoconservative hell hole in Britain.

      5
      21
      • Frankly Speaking

        You so called ‘moderate’ Blairite centrists are the Neoliberals and Neoconservatives. Admit it Nazi and stop hiding on the Left.

      • Francis Lee says

        There is a principled left-wing stance against what is a slightly less than successful EU. Possibly you are not aware that GDP growth in the EU area in the most recent yearly calculation is 1.2% (Source: Trading Economics). The Big Four have come up with the following yearly figures for growth. UK 1.5%, France 1.4% Germany 1.1% and Italy 0.1%. These really are depression figures. But as Bill Mitchell the Australian economist points out:

        ”I suppose Brexit is to blame for the fact that Britain is now growing faster than the major European economies. The latest ‘monthly’ GDP figures show that the British economy grew by 0.3 per cent in the three months to November 2018 and will probably sustain that rate of growth for the entire final quarter of 2018. This is in contradistinction to major European economies such as Germany (which will probably record a technical recession – two consecutive quarters of negative growth) with France and Italy probably following in Germany’s wake. I have made the point before that the growth trajectory of the British economy (inasmuch as there is one) is very unbalanced and reliant on households and firms maintaining expenditure by running down savings and accessing credit – which means ever increasing private debt burdens. With private credit growth weakening as the debt levels become excessive and the rundown of saving balances being finite, Britain will face recession unless the fiscal austerity is reversed. Earlier in 2018, the Guardian Brexit Watch ‘experts’ were continually pointing out that Britain’s growth rate was at the bottom of the G7 as evidence that Brexit was causing so much damage. So now European G7 nations are starting to lag behind, these commentators will have to find another ruse to pin their anti-Brexit narrative on. We also consider in this blog post some more Brexit-related arguments – pro and con – which reinforce my conclusion that a No Deal Brexit will not cause the skies to fall in.”

        It seems to me that remainers cannot deal with facts. Theirs is a procrustean-bed methodology where the facts are fitted into the ideology rather, as it should be, the other way around. The EU is a ramshackle system run by an ever-expanding bureaucracy of a non-elected politiburo, who, whatever their stated long-term beliefs and programmes, are in fact totally incompetent and corrupt. The notion of reforming this irreversible farce is akin to the belief in turning base metals into gold. Neoliberal and globalist to the core the structure is nearing meltdown, just as the Soviet Union did some years earlier.

        10
        1
      • Glasshopper says

        Outside the EU, Britain will have a lot less appeal to neocons because it won’t have the influence it had in the block. We will likely continue to be close to the US, as we are now. I don’t see any big change for the better or worse in that respect.
        What will change, is the robustness of our democracy as more power is returned from Brussels and more pressure put on our elected representatives. How we vote is up to us. I suspect a new electoral system will be one of the first big changes.

        4
        1
      • Tim Jenkins says

        Frankly, if you want to pigeon-hole, then i believe that the whole societal purpose of Brexit & Trump , & Grexit supporters , (skewered by Neo-con moderate leftist & centrists like Tsipras, who 62% instructed NO/OXI by referendum), was to show the world how to focus finally on getting your own house in order first, to take back control of governance & regional sovereignty (& commence with accountability), that has been entirely usurped by Deep State forces in Government and their Ashkenazi Corporatist Fake Stream Media & in the EU & US.

        I think most people were finally fed up with being fed BS excuses as to why electoral & societal problems @home never get sorted, even addressed, whilst waging Hypocritical Sanctimonious War for Resources & Corporate control of sovereignty elsewhere, to prop up failed empirical ponzi design systems & @home !

        Your reference to Marxists & Trotskyists demonstrates to me that you have not been following the swing in mood of societal change, Frankly Speaking, when you should have recognised long before 2008 what was actually going down at the Federal Reserve Bank, with “Socialism for the Rich” (Stiglitz) , when they created magically, in 5 working days, under an atmosphere of “Palpable Fear” (Tim Geithner) a mere
        $16.2 TRILLION bucks >>>

        Stop bucking the point of Brexit & shirking responsibility by pigeon-holing and blaming Trotskyists & Marxists, when you & your ilk of moderate friends are completely morally & financially bankrupt in comprehension, let alone for ideas regarding solutions in every sense. Your mocking of Maduro shows that you understand even less of the Geo-Political nuances in Spiel, than USUK politicians, or some would say the FUKUS political scene, including Macron ! Vivre le Frexit . . . !

        No worries, China will back Russia & Maduro in turn, militarily if necessary, all the way to Caracas, while you are frankly s{peaking} still considering what went wrong with USUK & FUKUS and how it came into being that you all ended up financially bankrupt, forget the morals, coz’ by mocking Maduro, you clearly don’t care to respect a majority electoral vote, with a voting system far superior to USUK & FUKUS combined . . .

        The Brits & Yanks deserve everything that is happening & will happen to them, in a matter of hours. Their failure to respond to all indicators from societal to financial, is indicative of their decayed arrogant imperialistic perverted notions of murderous grandeur (sic), resting on laurels & decadent attitudes, frankly speaking 🙂 The hell hole is entirely of your own creation, by failure to address and take serious concern & political action, back in 2008 and >>> in reality, the moment that WTC 7 collapsed without a single airplane hitting it & it denied the Laws of Physics: and the fact that the BBC knew & announced the collapse almost 30 minutes in advance of the event: were you sleeping, frankly ? The naive & stupid one should be clear to you by now and let me assure you it is not the wealth of readers @OffG.

        ” When the lights go out in the West , the ‘Light’ shall shine on the East ”

        Hopefully, you’ll very soon finally understand the cultural differences, with more respect for other cultures and stop hurling around dimwitted old childish anachronistic Tags & Labels on pigeon-holes that bare no relevance to the world today: frankly , you sounded like a Guardian journalist screaming “Fascism & Nazi & Anti-Semite”, from dimwits like Freedland, who believes in SKY & Murdoch ? How would you label Freedland, today ? a journalist ? Lol . . .

        Then we have Suzanne Moore, even more hilarious ??journalism??, to demonstrate the decay i feel you just represented with your superficial comment. Don’t worry it’s not a long read, in fact the Guardian begging for money request, after the article is in fact LONGER than the article itself !

        Paid Article 314 words compared Begging for money 358 !
        Words cannot suffice to describe the following laughable decadence & utter cowardice to confront >>>
        reality & speak truth to power.

        https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/25/what-lunch-with-the-pm-taught-me-her-dullness-disguises-a-dangerous-power-mania

        The hell hole you refer to arrived long ago, disguised, and guys like you just would not listen in your comfort zones. You get what you voted for, a societal danger & power mania totally out of control & removed from the electorate, with a ramped up surveillance state, while you were sleeping: and some of us have even been warning all you “moderates & leftist centrists” for decades !

        The buck stops > Brexit is 4real > get your own house in order, wherever you may live, before the feral faecal matter strikes the rotating oscillator and stop blaming your pet pigeon holes, instead start thinking solutions. Activate Serious Solutions, movement > ASS 4short 🙂

        Begin with studying who actually financed Marx & Trotsky/Lenin & Hitler … & Ukrainian Fascists !
        Then consider ways to circumvent history repeating & ‘The Lobby’ !!!
        in European Sovereign Nations, today …
        respecting each others’ cultures & order, in houses of regional representation,
        & then accept the irrefutable & inexorable science of societal change, going forwards.

        As somebody who has lived in Europe since 1990, i can hardly wait a day longer for the inevitable pre-programmed collapse to happen, finally to teach moderate centrists & leftists to listen up
        & kick ASS into gear 🙂 & wake up & stop blaming others.
        Where do you live, frankly speaking ?

        Lol, that appalling journalism from a moderate leftist & centrist lazy decadent & cowardly Suzanne Moore linked above, begs the jesting whine & rhyme >>>

        “Please Sir, (frankly speaking) can i have some moooore . . . ?”

        Sense the intonation ?

        Of course Brexit is ‘Worth it’ , if nothing else, just to put a cat amongst the pigeons & pigeon holes of yesteryear and people still living in the last ‘ Century of the Self ‘ and get everybody to start studying Energy Return on Energy Invested EROEI >>>

        invest some energy in thinking differently & consuming less feral faecal matter from ‘The Lobby’ !

        6
        2
        • Tim Jenkins says

          Apologies for this comment appearing twice over. There was some very considerable inexplicable time delay in its’ publishing, despite much ‘refreshment’ & coffee , so I resent it (further above) and then when refreshing to verify finally the second attempt, the first attempt appeared simultaneously. What to say ?

          Fick die Ashkenazi Corporatist Lobby for an inequitable 2 speed internet , bitte ?

          C’est la Guerre Mondiale online 🙂 stuck in “The Stalingrad of Weltanschauungskrieg” 😉

          2
          1
      • mark says

        A hundred neocons and Brussels Groupies will have you believe in their Eutopia with its centralised superstate and EU army.

        10
        1
    • Maggie says

      Brian – Since when did a Company become a Political Party?

      11
  19. Some Random Passer-by says

    Minimum wage monkey, from a leave voting constituency

    I had my suspicions on this, the new PPC is a remainer.

    Fuck Labour.

    Guess it’s UKIP

    So much for Corbyn…I spent money I couldn’t afford keep the git in

    8
    9
    • DunGroanin says

      Random is as random does.

      Minimum wage ? Youre lucky wait till they bring in US employment contracts – ZERO rights. You’ll be a slave.

      3
      1
      • Some Random Passer-by says

        Who says we have to jam our noses into the Yanks cracks?

        It’ll be our doom! The future is East, and the Yanks are going to get much worse untill they are neutered. It will _not_ be pleasant either! We will crushed.

        https://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2018/11/peace-behind-me-war-in-front-of-me.html?m=1

        We either get off the neo con train, and start thinking of different ways or its the intro to Fallout 4 (and yes, video games have researchers…) https://youtu.be/4NkHQs7ann4

        So much for British fight, guts and determination…

        3
        1
        • DunGroanin says

          Random, the Atlantic Zbridgers have all the pork barrellets wueuing to come butfuck the UK economy and our standards and regulations – that’s why they paid secret billions to get a brexit.

          • Some Random Passer-by says

            Then in that case I get to gloat at entitled fools that get dragged down with me.

            Serious question is do I just laugh at them, or point out that I won and helped bring about their new found poverty. And then laugh.

            You sound a lot like project fear. Do you also think it’ll be the end of Europe? World War three? Still waiting for my emergency budget. (Carney is ex vampire squid, he’s following orders)

  20. Forget Corbyn and forget any future hope of social democracy then. Corbyn will be ousted soon or in the event that Labour won an election the progressives will have a coup and take charge again simply because Corbyn didn’t have the courage to come out and back his own Brexit inclinations.

Comments are closed.