Beyond Reason
W Stephen Gilbert
Members of Jewish Voice for Labour marching in support of Corbyn. Just some of the “wrong type of Jews” the MSM ignore.
Chris Williamson is the Labour MP for Derby North. He was Shadow Minister for Fire and Emergency Services until January, when he stepped down, having spoken outside his remit. Free of collective responsibility, he has been touring the country in response to invitations to speak to CLPs. Articulate, passionate and politically close to the leadership, he is a popular speaker who has the happy knack of firing up his audiences and hence is a real asset in what may turn out to be a pre-election climate. He is also prepared to stick his head above the parapet.
Speaking in Sheffield recently, Williamson was recorded on a mobile phone as suggesting that Labour has “backed off far too much, we have given too much ground, we have been too apologetic … we’ve done more to address the scourge of anti-Semitism than any political party”.
He was obliged to apologise and withdraw and has now been suspended from the party. Deputy leader Tom Watson, who comfortably alternates between calling for party unity and implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) undermining his leader, dismissed Williamson’s apology out of hand, thereby ensuring that Williamson had no ground to stand on as far as Watson’s faction was concerned.
It is a great pity and in the end a self-defeating gambit that Williamson agreed to bow to pressure from a leadership that has been under extreme pressure on the issue for three years now. It would have been much more constructive – if only in the long term – had he defied the party to show how his argument had been unacceptable. At some point, a stand must be taken against the campaign that conflates legitimate criticism of the government of Israel, much of which stems from people who are not only Jewish but Israeli, with ignorant racial prejudice. Departing from the policies of Benjamin Netanyahu is no more anti-Semitic than deploring the antics of Donald Trump is anti-American.
The Williamson case demonstrates only too clearly that anti-Semitism is no longer an issue that may be discussed in rational terms in the Labour Party. It is not enough to characterise anti-Semitism as a scourge. You are only permitted to claim that this scourge is endemic to the party and to accuse the leadership of “not doing enough”. The argument is that the leadership needs to act “more quickly”, which is to say without due process and merely on someone’s say-so. Unless you can combine a claim of rampant anti-Semitism in the party with a frontal attack on Jeremy Corbyn, you are implicitly damaging the party. These are the prescribed positions from which any departure is itself deemed to be anti-Semitic. The politics of Senator Joseph McCarthy irresistibly come to mind.
Even so, both an official Labour party investigation and the cross-party Commons Home Affairs Committee have exonerated Labour of the “institutional racism” of which the former Labour MP Luciana Berger accuses it. Several academic analyses of data have also shown that claims of widespread anti-Semitism in Labour are “grossly exaggerated” [Dr Alan Maddison, February 2019]. The party investigation identified a number of actual Labour members who had recorded comments along racial or cultural lines, but these comments represented 0.08% of the membership. It would be instructive if a Labour party committee were to investigate abuse aimed at the party leader and the Shadow Home Secretary. More than 0.08% of the membership, I suggest.
Berger herself has clearly suffered anti-Semitic abuse during her term as an MP, but whether such abuse stems from inside the Labour Party remains largely moot. For those who wish to prevent Jeremy Corbyn from becoming prime minister, it is convenient to characterise the abuse as being hurled in his name. Appending the hashtag #jc4pm to a tweet is hardly proof of origin. Someone wishing to make trouble could just as easily fly a false flag. If I can conceive of such a tactic, others can too and can act upon it.
Within the Labour Party is a grouping called Labour Friends of Israel. LFI defends the actions of the Israeli government even where the world (not least the UN) is broadly united against such actions. When dozens of demonstrating but unarmed Palestinians were shot dead by Israeli snipers last year, LFI sought to excuse the killings. These excuses may no longer be found as LFI eventually decided that discretion was the better part of valour. Meanwhile, Jewish people who criticise Netanyahu and/or support Corbyn are now cast by other Jews as “the wrong kind of Jew” and “self-hating Jews”. Catch-22 lives.
Six of the eight Labour MPs (all but one of them goyish) who set up the Independent Group are and remain members of Labour Friends, which numbers Tom Watson among its supporters. Despite having left the party, Joan Ryan is still chair of LFI. She has been recorded on camera accepting financial assistance from a representative of the Israeli embassy in London, though whether that funding was for LFI or for the new group is not clear. Did you learn of this from the mainstream media? No, I thought not.
That 200 Jewish members of the party should write to The Guardian in support of Corbyn’s stances and policies ought to be more significant than eight malcontents leaving the party because they want to bring down Corbyn, but of course attack is a sexier media story than support. The 200 located anti-Semitism where it belongs, on the right of the political spectrum, but that contradicts the media consensus that equates support from the left for Palestinian self-determination with racism.
One of Corbyn’s most virulent critics is his parliamentary neighbour Margaret Hodge, she who accused Corbyn to his face of being “a fucking anti-Semite and a racist”, though at no evident risk to her own party membership. The suspicion grows that Hodge has the freedom of the BBC airwaves. She was the only politician invited by The World at One two months ago to give a tour d’horizon of the political scene over the previous twelve months. Just lately, she was permitted to comment unchallenged on the Williamson case, describing in passing Luciana Berger as having been “forced out of the party” when, by all other accounts, Berger chose to leave, yet here was Hodge advocating that Williamson be forced out.
That Hodge’s daughter is deputy news editor at the BBC ought to make the Corporation scrupulously wary of any treatment of Hodge that could be construed as favouritism, yet it demonstrates a cavalier disregard for such niceties. The preponderance of identifiably anti-Corbynite personnel among its news management endangers the BBC’s charter-bound duty to be impartial between political parties. Corbyn is the (twice-)elected leader. Favouring factions in the party ranged against him is not impartiality.
Radio and television interviewers are expected by their audiences to ask hard questions of politicians. The Labour Party needs to confront an awkward question about itself. If a member falsely or unjustly accuses another member of anti-Semitism, would or should the accuser be suspended from the party? It is a real and an urgent question and one that no one in the party seems prepared to contemplate.
SUPPORT OFFGUARDIAN
If you enjoy OffG's content, please help us make our monthly fund-raising goal and keep the site alive.
For other ways to donate, including direct-transfer bank details click HERE.
Reading this thread of comments, I see that very few commenters have actually challenged Crank to define what s/he meant when s/he suggested that Jewish people need to give up their identity in order to combat anti-Semitism, or words to that effect. Perhaps what is meant is that Jewish people need to examine what being Jewish really means to them. Is being Jewish no more than feeling an emotional attachment to a strip of land on the eastern Mediterranean Sea, and believing that one has to defend the people there regardless of whether they act morally or criminally? If so, to some people that might be a very poor definition of being Jewish. What Crank might have been trying to say (and I may be mistaken in my interpretation) is that to be Jewish must be more than being attached to certain rituals and sets of literature and prayers, or… Read more »
The words I actually wrote: Only the abandonment of Jewish identity can ultimately free Jewish people from ‘antisemitism’ I am pretty much directly quoting Gilad Atzmon here. In fact my comments here have almost all been a quoting of his ideas. Note to those who have me marked out as extremist : Gilad was targeted by a Likudnik in London and driven from his professional calling via a Labour council’s actions (and at great expense to the people of Islington). An article defending him was published here at OffG. When Gilad appeared on George Galloway’s Sputnik show, George introduced him by explaining that he’d read Atzmon’s book with rapt interest on his recent honeymoon. I agree with Atzmon, that in one sense, Jewish people are victims of the ‘idea of Jewishness’ as much as, or more than, anyone else. The anti-goy-ism keeps them from being an equal part of the… Read more »
When Gilad appeared on George Galloway’s Sputnik show, George introduced him by explaining that he’d read Atzmon’s book with rapt interest there is a deep Jewish fear of anti-Jewish sentiment latent within non-Jews, one that creates a self perpetuating cycle. There is precious little self reflection about why this might be there though. Pre-Traumatic Stress Disorder — A Glimpse Into Israeli Collective Psychosis, by Gilad Atzmon a growing number of people want to see an end to Israel, the ‘Jew Only State’. Yet, no one around expresses any murderous or terminal plans against world Jewry or even against their Jewish State. No one in the political or the media spheres is calling for a homicidal act against the Jews or their Jewish State. Thus the well-established Judeocentric tendency to interpret almost any legitimate political and ideological criticism as a perpetration of an upcoming Judeocide should be comprehended as a severe… Read more »
Maybe they can be offered something better, and choose to.
Crank corner where racist halfwits come to receive massive assent for saying Jewish people can avoid antisemitism only if they abandoni their Jewish identity. This site is a freak show.
Abusive non argument.
See how your ‘argument’ is received anywhere but here or alt-right sites.
More sneering. Says it all.
In my reading the ‘alt-right’ are distinctly zionist. Their man Trump is considered ‘The First Jewish US President’ in the Jewish press (their words not mine).
https://electronicintifada.net/tags/alt-right
yes, anybody who rejects the idea that Jewish identity is a “racial” category, is obviously a racist.
this is what makes Talmudism so great — even halfwits are empowered by its magic.
None of these Fake Accusations of anti-semitism would have seen the light of day if the late and great MP for Manchester Gorton,Gerard Kaufmann had still been alive.He was a far greater critic of Israel than Corbyn has ever been.He would have had all these characters today for breakfast.
To put Kauffman in perspective he was a very right wing MP and a notorious crony of Harold Wilson’s.
He was absolutely right in his criticisms of the Israeli fascists however. In those days Likud and its satellites were regarded as beyond the pale- it is astonishing that the current Friends of Israel are so complacent about the criminality in plain daylight perpetrated against Gaza.
The complacency is an index of their degree of confidence in their own political power. Once you are in complete control, there’s no longer any need for subterfuge, and you can perpetrate your crimes in broad daylight. If the dirty goyim complain, they can be quickly silenced with cries of “anti-semitism”, now backed up with police enforcement powers.
Indeed, it’s the ex-jews, or almost-ex-jews, who understand Jewish ethnic supremacism most clearly, because they’ve seen what it looks like from the inside, whereas everybody else can only draw inferences from the external symptoms.
Gilad Atzmon — From Esther to AIPAC
I suppose it’s the homage that vice pays to virtue that anti-Semites are at such pains to deny their anti-Semitism. They can’t help themselves though when it comes to blaming Jews for bringing on themselves by being, well, Jewish. As the egregious Crank remarks, with the lack of intellectual and historical rigour so characteristic of his comments, if only they would give up being Jewish there would be no problem. But no matter, we see you.
Your only response to the arguments is slander and threat.
This is all I have ever read in response to these arguments.
What does that tell me?
anti-Semites are at such pains to deny their anti-Semitism.
You must not read very carefully, if you mistake this for denial:
if only they would give up being Jewish there would be no problem.
We do, however, reject the racialist conception (“(God’s?) Chosen People”) that Jewish identity has of itself. But with the mediaeval Talmudist logic so characteristic of these ethnic supremacists, rejection of racism is interpreted as proof of racism.
But no matter, we see you.
here, have some intellectual and historical rigour:
When Victims Rule — A Critique of Jewish Pre-Eminence in America
‘The Labour Party needs to confront an awkward question about itself. If a member falsely or unjustly accuses another member of anti-Semitism, would or should the accuser be suspended from the party? It is a real and an urgent question and one that no one in the party seems prepared to contemplate.’ Almost none of the comments below have addressed this question. Several Labour MPs and members have had their lives, careers and reputations unjustly damaged due to ‘false’ or ‘unjust’ accusations of anti-semitism – not to mention the mental suffering inflicted and the waste of time and money spent on the investigations. If only 0.08% of complaints investigated have been upheld, then there is a helluva a lot of false and unjust accusing going on. I have read that one-fifth of these 200+ accusations come from one source – Margaret Hodge. At the very least, the law of slander/libel… Read more »
In criminal cases neither the Complainant or the Defendent are ‘allowed’ to make ‘comments’ before trial or face trouble from the Judge or under cross examination. Motor mouths may have to be ordered to restrain themselves. A political party could require members to adhere to that rule – in return for a MUCH earlier result and a FAIR trial – preferrrably in public and on TV. Williamson could be tried within a couple of weeks and we could learn how somebody can see ‘Jew hating’ in what he said in Sheffield. If the Party won’t give him the opportunity then he should set up his own, maybe in the form of a play? and travel the country.
If 0.08% of “anti-semitism” complaints have been upheld, that means that there must have been at least (1 / 0.0008 = 1250) such complaints. Or possibly, two (or three, or four …) times as many as that.
Imagine all the wasted time, money, and effort to investigate all that hasbara. How does the Labour Party have anything left over to do anything else? But maybe that’s the whole point.
The unforseen danger, for the ethnic activists, is that eventually the Hasbara Saturation Point will be reached, after which all such claims will be immediately rejected with contempt and derision. But it is a common characteristic of (temporarily) successful fascist and racist movements, that their arrogance and megalomania grow without bound, right until the eventual implosion.
Just a reminder – the ENTIRE point of this article is that the ‘antisemitism’ claims are a cover for an attack on free speech and left-wing ideas, so if you fill the BTL section with comments about ‘the Jews’ you’re completely missing the point – AND stepping on it at the same time.
This iS NOT ABOUT JEWISHNESS – if you make it about Jewishness you are playing their game.
So, let me get this straight. You say that the false allegations of institutional antisemitism within Labour are an attack on free speech, and our best response to this is to attack free speech?
Well excuse me, I obviously need to watch the (Corbyn endorsed) Michael Walker momentum video a few more times and ‘re-educate myself’ about all this.
Have a nice, safe, Judeo-fascist transformation everybody, and remember to take the red pill !
…………………..oh no, it’s too late for that.
British Labour Party – associated organisations with an
explicit, primarily racial, ethnic or religious raison d’être:
* BAME (Black/Asian/Minority Ethnic) Labour
¶ Campaign for (Scottish) Socialism
# Christians on the Left
# Jewish Labour Movement
# Jewish Voice for Labour
¶ Labour for (Scottish) Independence
# Labour Friends of Israel
# Labour Friends of Palestine & the Middle East
# Labour Muslim Network
¶ Labour Party Irish Society
¶: UK (3)
*: Multi-ethnic/Minority (1)
#: Abrahamic/Semitic/Judeo-Christian/Middle-Eastern (6)
Robbobbobin, I am guessing that you are trying to make a point here : that people organising around their Jewish identity are no special case – that other ‘racial, ethnic or religious’ groupings organise similarly. I think you are both mixing arguments and missing the essential point. If you concede that Judaism is fundamentally a religion of racial separation or racial supremacism then does it not make JLM distinct from, say, Christians on the Left? (Of course if you disagree with that initial point then it doesn’t). If the Jewishness were solely a racial category then the JLM would indeed be directly comparable to BAME Labour, and anyone standing opposed to its presence in Labour could legitimately be accused of racism. But is Jewish identity solely based on a racial category? Most say is also a set of ideas (e.g. ‘Judaism’, ‘Israel’, ‘chosenness’, ‘the survivors of The Holocaust’- are some… Read more »
Note that in the Bad Old Days, it was the (self-described) “anti-semites” who claimed that Jews were a “race”.
Under the modern, enlightened understanding of these issues, it is now those who argue that Jewishness IS NOT a “racial” category, who are accused of “anti-semitism”.
It’s almost as if Jewish identity is whatever serves the immediate self-interest of those who claim it. But to conclude that, would be anti-semitic.
Such are the results, made possible by the miraculous technology of Talmudic logic.
“I am guessing that you are trying to make a point here : that people organising around their Jewish identity are no special case – that other ‘racial, ethnic or religious’ groupings organise similarly.”
The point I am trying to make here is that parentheses are parentheses.
“I am guessing that you are trying to make a point here : that people organising around their Jewish identity are no special case – that other ‘racial, ethnic or religious’ groupings organise similarly.”
The point I am trying to make here is that parentheses are parentheses.
As Jonathan Cook writes on the witchhunt.
“Corbyn’s success has also outraged vocal supporters of Israel both in the Labour party – some 80 MPs are stalwart members of Labour Friends of Israel – and in the UK media.”
https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2019-02-28/witchfinders-burn-jeremy-corbyn/
I really don’t expect all the Labour internal other groups, combined even, to be as implaccable as these 80.
I do think that number is the upper limit of possible ‘defectors’ to the funny tingers ltd company.
with respect, Admin, the point being argued by “crank”, “mark”, myself, and others, based on extensive documentation from Gilad Atzmon, Israel Shamir, Joachim Martillo, and other ex-jews, is that it has become quite impossible to understand what is actually going on, without interrogating what the content of “Jewishness” actually is and has been, for approximately the last thousand years. so on the contrary, you are playing their game if you decline to investigate Jewish identity, which turns out to be the very antithesis of genuine free speech and authentic left-wing ideas. the “anti-semitism” hysteria is intended to prevent any rational consideration of these issues, and confine discussion to kosher topics which pose no threat whatsoever to zionism and its beneficiaries. the very intensity of the shrieking is sufficient proof of what the ethnic supremacists actually fear. as “crank” says, One cannot maintain a consistent anti-racist position while defending a group… Read more »
so on the contrary, you are playing their game
Exactly. There is no way of avoiding this debate unless you want to be a passive spectator to the evisceration of the Labour Party.
Admin’s message is, when stripped down, the very same as Michael Walker’s.
.
Agreed! There is a growing problem of the ‘elite’ in both the media and in Labour rightwing circles; they suddenly appear as out of touch with grass root opinion as any Administration. Put bluntly the ‘elite’ chooses to accept that there is a ‘problem’ and descends into Alice’s rabbit hole while ordinary punters know the ‘problem’ is non-existent and is being used, quite cynically, to break the Labour Left. So to accept the premise of anti-semitism is a mistake. What do they want? Show trials?
What do they want? Show trials?
There’s nothing more authentically Jewish than a good show trial.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/centuries-after-excommunication-time-to-void-ban-on-spinoza/
You’ve seen something nasty in the woodshed? Do tell!
One can only assume some of these comments are being posted by TIG, Freedland et al to give sustenance to their claims about “the left” and get this site shut down.
Bevin, I think your comment is deeply problematic from the beginning. You write: The basic problem is that Jews are being dealt with as if they were a race rather than a number of related religious groups with more or less, in terms of rites, ceremonies and traditions, in common. But what is the essential religious idea that binds those groups, rites and traditions? The very next sentence you write: Most of those identified as Jews are not religious, many of them are atheists and determinedly secular. Disputable, but by the by. So you say that ‘most’ Jews are not religious and determinedly secular, then what binds them together as a group? You said it is not race. This is the starting point for the confusion about Jewish identity in Left thinking. From this confusion all other confusions emanate. In truth – and any honest Jewish scholar of Jewish history… Read more »
We need to point out that Jews “dominate almost every aspect of political, economic and cultural power”?? And the to this ‘problem’ is for Jews to stop being Jews .. ?? OffG is clearly happy to become a safe fposting venue for latterday Henry Fords and Adolf Hitlers.
Cue, protests that crank isn’t racist, just passionately loves Palestinians…
Are Jewish people not massively over represented in these spheres?
You claiming it is antisemitic to point out what is undeniable does not make it untrue.
Your misrepresenting of my argument, saying that this is the ‘problem’ when I was referring to the real problem of antisemitism shows that you are not honest.
That you reflexively associate all criticism of Jewish identity politics in with love of Adolf Hitler (who I criticise for embracing the exact same ideology -i.e. racial supremicism) tells me that you are not worth engaging with further.
A very haughty, aloof response from somebody publicly posting.. “Only the abandonment of Jewish identity can ultimately free Jewish people from ‘antisemitism'”.
Yes, we have to ignore reality.
Reality is “anti semitic.”
Jews dominate almost every aspect of political, economic, and cultural power
Crank – i can’t be bothered to read that screed thoroughly, did you mention the word –
HEBREW
even once in your potty hit-story?
If ‘races’ are incorrectly defined as people who look different – then you will find there are ‘black’ jews and ‘brown’ jews along with the ‘white’ jews.
So no, judaism, in that common and daily understood usage, is not a racial definition.
Go and read the Old Testament,Torah and Talmud or talk to an honest Jewish historian. Or even a Christian theologian. As I said, the religious dimension of jewish identity is bound intrinsically with the idea of a covenant between the almighty and a particular tribe (or ‘nation’). It is not controversial to say that. Most religions are universalist. They recognise all humans as equal – at least in the capacity that converts might choose to subscribe to your religious idea. Not so orthodox Judaism. That research tells us that there are serious inconsistencies with the belief that the Jewish religious story is supported by veridical reality is another matter. Yes people of different racial heritage self identify as ‘Jewish’ (NB note how orthodox authorities relate to them in Israel !). I am not saying that I think that ‘Jews are a race’ or that they should be thought of as… Read more »
“God doesn’t exist but he gave us Palestine anyway.”
In Israel, they are quite clear that there is a Jewish Race from DNA analysis.
Though there are black Jews, heavily discriminated against of course.
“Most religions recognise all humans as equal.”
“The goyim are not humans. They are beasts.” Baba Mezia, 114b.
“If you eat with a goy it is the same as eating with a dog.” Jebamoth, 94b.
“All gentile women without exception are menstrual filth, slaves, heathens and whores.” Sanhedrin, 82a.
“All children of the goyim are animals.” Yebamoth, 98a.
“Even the best of the goyim should be killed.” Soferim, 15.
The Talmudic faith was devised as a means of preserving racial exclusiveness in Babylon. It was largely invented then, and its prime purpose was and remains race hatred and racist supremacy. This is reflected in the extreme official hostility to the few mixed marriages in Israel.
Ok – i understand thanks for explaining. I misread your meaning.
And one more thing Bevin, Tom Watson is actually being more consistent than Jeremy Corbyn. He is standing holding a flag of an openly fascist state and saying nobody has the right to criticise ‘the chosen people’ who have built this thing called Israel. We can see what he stands for, and the only thing we can do is either politcally take him down as a rejection of such obscene racist ideology, or acquiesce. Yet Corbyn won’t (it seems) fight back, and cannot until he admits that ‘anti-zionism is -bar a few minor exceptions- anti-Jewish’. That is, taking on the Israel lobby, the zionist network of power around the world, the Jewish establishment, can only be done by confronting the support for those things coming from a large majority of the world’s Jews. Watson is saying, ‘I am a fascist. What are you going to do about it?’ Corbyn says… Read more »
Why is it so important that people should give up their identity in order to fit in with your well ordered world? Shades of grey exist across all walks of life and if we can’t learn to live with this fact, we will forever be at war. Needless to say, I want no part of your doctrine where it demands people abandon all that binds them together. It’s fascistic and extreme.
Mohandeer, I make no ‘demands’. I am just trying to challenge what I see as a contradictory position held by most people on the Left. What binds people together? There are many things we could answer that with. Gardening brings people together. Trade unions bring people together. Fascism brings people together. Are we to regard these three examples in the same light merely because ‘they bring people together’ – that they comprise part of peoples’ identity? I say no. I say that there is an ethical argument that can be made comparing how, for example, socialist movements bring people together, and how fascist movements bring people together. Universalism (which, by the way isn’t something that I have invented as you seem to imply) calls for all people to be recognised as basically equal and free to make allegiances based on ideas. It stands against the determinism of racism. What I… Read more »
Thanks Mr Crank for a very thought provoking set of comments. Fortunately there is a way out on a class basis. The Jewish Capitalist’s wealth interests are diametrically opposed to salaried and waged Jews. (A wage rise cuts into profit). Therefore regardless of race or religion all working class people have a vested interest in having common ownership and control of production. Many people have already moved from Jew identity to universal citizen identity. As to Watson and Corbyn I agree, the left is weak because it does not possess sufficient theoretical rigour to support the transition to Socialism. ( The International Marxist Tendency appears to be the only left wing group making that effort).
I kind of agree. If Jewish working classes had pursued a route to their advancement through class politics (i.e. identifying as ‘working class people’ rather than ‘working class Jews’) it would basically negate my argument here. History shows us that they often haven’t though . As this crisis in Labour has unfolded I must have read hundreds of statements that read, “Speaking as a Jew ….I support Corbyn/ dispute the existence of institutional racism in Labour/ object to zionism” etc. All excellent comments and important, but I ask , Why ‘as a Jew’ though ? If we are truely consistent to the principles of universalism, that says that Corbyn should be taken on his ideas not his support for one group or another, or, that nobody from any background should be able to falsely accuse an organisation of institutional racism, or, that fascism should be fought no matter which ethnic… Read more »
If Jewish working classes had pursued a route to their advancement through class politics (i.e. identifying as ‘working class people’ rather than ‘working class Jews’) it would basically negate my argument here. History shows us that they often haven’t though. We don’t know that. How many (self-identified) “working-class Jews” are there, under the age of fifty or sixty? The essential core of Jewish identity is ethnic supremacism. If you are not demanding or receiving special privileges, Jewish identity rapidly becomes meaningless, and can be conveniently discarded. People who have done so, are no longer visible as “Jews”, and are not any part of the problem. If you are not actually an ethnic supremacist, then there is no reason to continue to identify as one. Which is why those who do, are mainly found among the privileged caste of Guardian journalists, post-modernist academics, corporate lawyers, and financial tricksters, who maintain the… Read more »
It is sad to see the haste with which standard fascist tropes, including the Nazi favourite ‘Bolsheviks are Jews” are adopted. You really ought to consider moving to Ukraine where your opinions would fit right in.
so, all you’ve got is evidence-free slurs, just like the zionists.
keep up the good work.
taking on the Israel lobby, the zionist network of power around the world, the Jewish establishment, can only be done by confronting the support for those things coming from a large majority of the world’s Jews.
standard question for the “not all jews …” theorists:
“Among people who self-identify as ‘Jewish’, what are the relative proportions of zionists and anti-zionists?”
They never reply, presumably because any answer they might give, would expose the utter incoherence and unreality of their theory. In fact, to do so would be to let the cat out of the bag. Which would be very un-PC, and probably “anti-semitic”.
Some things are just better swept under the rug. At least, if you value your career and social standing, in the zionist-compatible faux “left”.
As I write below in reply to Milosevic it may be that Corbyn says “nothing” because he realises that outside of the political/media caste-which has to be written off- this matter is of very marginal interest. By saying nothing about it he leaves it to the Blairites to talk themselves hoarse over a question that has no traction on the doorsteps of Labour inclined voters. They have more basic interests, the bread and butter questions that the neo-liberals cannot address which is why they change the subject. The problem with their tactic is that very few people believe that Labour is anti-semitic and even fewer people care.
I am aware, crank, that my comment, cobbled together over a period of hours broken up by more important activities in the woodburning line, was not very coherent. I\’m not sure whether I disagree with anything that you have written. Except this which adds, in my view, nothing to your argument: ” …I say, just look honestly at the degree of over-representation of Jewish power elites in our world. It is off the scale.” Nobody could argue that any such quantification of ‘power elites’ and Jewish representation therein is anything but extremely subjective and well beyond the possibilities of being demonstrated. Does it matter anyway? Your point is that the religious beliefs that lie at the base of this culture are racist and authoritarian. There is nothing particularly unique about this- Jews were one of many groups who entertained the conceit that there are “None Like us” and inclined to… Read more »
“I’’m not sure whether I disagree with anything that you have written.” Here I am referring to crank’s posting in reply to mine. I haven’t read everything else that he or anyone else here has written.
Nobody could argue that any such quantification of ‘power elites’ and Jewish representation therein is anything but extremely subjective and well beyond the possibilities of being demonstrated. http://i.stack.imgur.com/PPhcg.jpg There are Brahmins, for example yes, a privileged elite caste which exploits the rest of society for their own benefit, and that of their ruling-class patrons. what were we talking about, again? as well as Presbyterians whose belief in predestination for a tiny sliver of the justified Where do you suppose that ideology originally came from? Was the “Old Testament” written by Presbyterians? The best rule to deal with those accusing socialists of anti-semitism is to refuse to feed the trolls. It is nonsense and lowering ourselves into the filth to engage with it The definition of “anti-semitism” has been expanded to include any and all criticism of capitalist class power. It’s almost as if they’ve got something to hide. The only… Read more »
“The definition of “anti-semitism” has been expanded to include any and all criticism of capitalist class power. It’s almost as if they’ve got something to hide. The only way to avoid engaging the issue is abject surrender, which is of course the intended outcome.” You seem to be under the impression that this is an important question. It isn’t. The next election is not going to hinge on whether or not Corbyn is anti-semitic. Not least because nobody believes that he is. This question only exists as important within the narrow media-political caste, nobody outside it is affected by it. The significance of the issue is that it is being used to madden the Establishment elites into disqualifying a Labour victory either by coup or assassination. The plan of using antisemitism to break up the Labour party has failed as MPs have had to leave the party, taking nobody with… Read more »
talk about important issues instead.
like Palestine, Iraq, and Syria?
You seem to be under the impression that this is an important question. It isn’t. The next election is not going to hinge on whether or not Corbyn is anti-semitic. Not least because nobody believes that he is. This question only exists as important within the narrow media-political caste, nobody outside it is affected by it. The significance of the issue is that it is being used to madden the Establishment elites into disqualifying a Labour victory With respect Bevin, I cannot understand this line of thinking (that I have also read elsewhere). The false AS crisis will have electoral consequences through the public perception of Labour as disorganised, disunited, with a leader who cannot or will not fight back against false accusations. We have to ask the question, ‘Why won’t he?’. I suggest that it is too big a narrative to take on. To stand forward and say that… Read more »
Bevin,
This question only exists as important within the narrow media-political caste
How does Lansman’s coming forward into media spotlight as a major advocate for the false narrative fit in to your assertion above?
…or to put it another way. How can Labour members challenge Lansman and his role as saboteur or puppet master without it, you know, looking,
”””””””””””””””antisemitic”””””””””””””” ?
twitter.com/LabGrassroots/status/1101778552947642370
Chris Williamson was a regular guest on the once edgy young new left Novara Media. His erstwhile comrades James, Aaron, Ash have thrown him under the bus so as not to jeopardize their growing ties to MSM.
https://mobile.twitter.com/medialens/status/1101133397785743366
Meanwhile their fellow Novara host Michael bolsters his creds with establishment media by fronting a Momentum video that suggests Corbyn supporters are characterized by adherence to some anti Jewish conspiracy involving the Rothschilds.
Personal career advancement over principle and honesty, the Novara motto. Very disappointing.
Cut’n’Paste from Saker Vineyard; the Resistance to AZC globalism is becoming global: “Furthermore, US leaders simply don’t understand how hated the “Yankees” are in Latin America (at least among the masses, not the comprador elites) and how fantastically offensive the appointment of a felon like Elliott Abrams as Envoy to Venezuela is to the vast majority of the people of this continent. Second, Hugo Chavez and Nicolas Maduro did empower, for the very first time, the masses of the Venezuelan people, especially those who lived in abject poverty when Venezuela was still a US colony. These people are under no illusion about what a Guaido regime would mean to them. And while most of the supporters of Chavez and Maduro are not influential or wealthy, there are a lot of them and they will probably fight to prevent a complete reversal of all the achievements of the Bolivarian revolution. Third,… Read more »
While nuclear Pakistan and India are shooting each others jets down Off-Guardian keeps on busy with its favourite topic, little Israel and Gaza. In 2018 ~ 200 Gazan’s got killed; anybody ever tallied the MUCH higher death toll by Pakistan’s Islamists in that year?
The number of Zionists living in the UK is miniscule compared to the number of P-Nationalist Pakistani-Brits. not to count the vast number of other Islamists in the UK, but lets keep mum about them and their influence on UK MSM and politics.
“Little Israel” has far more warheads in its huge illegal nuclear arsenal than India and Pakistan combined, which it constantly threatens to use against everybody else, including Europe. And India and Pakistan are not genocidal terrorist Apartheid regimes, unlike Israel. India and Pakistan did not sell atomic bombs to Apartheid South Africa, unlike a certain other little country.
And India and Pakistan do not have a complete stranglehold over the political and media life of the US and all western countries, as little Israel does over its goy satellites. 99% of the 30 shekel whores in Parliament are not Friends of Pakistan. There are other differences. India and Pakistan do not constantly meddle and subvert our politics with lies, smears, corruption and blackmail. Unlike a certain other little country.
Fantasy land in black and white: disconnected from reality.
@Antonym
In what way do Pakistan Brits influence UK & MSM politics. Do you mean the time when Twat-hat David Cameron wrote to the Imams requesting they keep their flocks in order? Can you imagine the backlash if he had written to Bishops asking them to politicise the pulpit ‘cos their “flock” was not being very Christian, or more pertinent, if those letters were admonishing the Rabbis for the support their flocks were giving Israel?
Not only was twat-hat being totally o/o/o and an Islamaphobe, but he set a precedent of attacking the moslem faith as being responsible for the minority element of ISIS supporters but totally dismissing responsibility of Rabbis for the Israeli atrocities against the Palestinians(which is true – they are not)peripety notwithstanding.
The Zionist Establishment are constantly screaming about the 1940s “holocaust”, with every other day a “Holocaust Memorial Day”, a Holocaust Museum on every street corner, and a new Hollywood holocaust blockbuster once a week.
Has “anybody ever tallied” the much higher death toll of the Native American Holocaust (over 100 million), or the Belgian Congo Genocide (10 million) or the African Slavery victims (30 million)?
The vast numbers of victims make the 1940s “holocaust” trivial by comparison. It should be illegal to complain about it, or even mention it, unless you have first talked about the Native Americans, the Congolese, and the Africans in general. That’s racist.
oh do f*ck off, Antonym..don’t claim to speak “for Israel” nor Jews. You are a mischievous hasbara-lite dissembler who makes straw-man arguments about the most apartheid nation on earth. (I say that, again, as a jew (small j)
I ask you one more time: which of these two countries (one of whom is ARMED by Israel) has broken and/or ignored over 100 UN resolutions on their behaviour? Resolutions passed by the WORLD’S nations. Most people, a huge number of Jews included (like the ones in the article above), have had enough of the rampant bullshit perpetrated by the rabid fascist regime in Israel. Comparing it to the conflict in Kashmir is such nonsense, especially when Israel is doing its level best to prolong it. smh
Don’t be too hard on the poor chap. He has to earn his shekel a line. The hasbara centre manager is on his back again.
Labour members are signing upto a letter according to the Grauniad. Make of it what you will! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScyRkgnrCxh6ZJ5uUVu2-cwDaX2WNVtlngwY5AaX0lPY5hFAg/viewform Some snippets from that very long letter: “We are Labour members who support Jeremy Corbyn in his leadership and the progressive, socialist programme and anti-racist principles of the Labour Party. We have seen antisemitism from Labour members and supporters, online or offline. We recognise that as a movement we have been too slow to acknowledge this problem, too tolerant of the existence of antisemitic views within our ranks, too defensive and too eager to downplay it. We sincerely apologise to the Jewish community, and our Jewish comrades in the party, for our collective failure on this issue to date. We believe that a small minority of antisemites are wreaking havoc in the Labour movement, alienating Jewish people, and sabotaging the Labour project. Some of these people are already expelled or otherwise suspended… Read more »
The basic problem is that Jews are being dealt with as if they were a race rather than a number of related religious groups with more or less, in terms of rites, ceremonies and traditions, in common. Most of those identified as Jews are not religious, many of them are atheists and determinedly secular. This is one of the reasons that anti-semitism is made so much of: the self proclaimed leaders of the Jewish community are very conscious of the melting away of their constituency into the general population, our society. Jews are as likely to drop their religious practises as Presbyterians, Catholics, Anglicans and the millions descended from other religious groups, muslims, hindus, buddhists and others. In all these communities young people are abandoning increasingly incomprehensible religious practises and integrating with a largely secular society. Young Jews are very likely to marry young muslims or baptists, just as young… Read more »
Jews are as likely to drop their religious practises as Presbyterians, Catholics, Anglicans and the millions descended from other religious groups, muslims, hindus, buddhists and others.
My bold on the bullsh*t: Islam has violent apostacy rules : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
You know this but hide it which is very telling about from where your coming….
See how tolerant Zionists are to mixed marriages in Israel. And try leading a normal life anywhere near orthodox fanatics and see what happens.
For a mixed marriage with a Muslim you’ll have to convert first to Islam.
Try living near Orthodox Islamic fanatics: there are 1000 x more of them, so the chance is much bigger.
@Antonym. Your version presumably explains why in secular sovereign states like syria, many Moslems intermarry with Christians?
Your claim does not hold water.
While the other parties flirted with fascism and inclined to appeasement and collaboration Labour stood firm for its principles.
You mean, like when they all voted for the Iraq War?
”Well, it’s a trick, we always use it. When from Europe somebody is criticizing Israel, then we bring up the Holocaust. When in this country people are criticizing Israel, then they are anti-Semitic.”
So said Shulamit Aloni, a former Israeli politician (who served as leader of the Meretz Party and as Minister of Education), when asked by Amy Goodman about dissent expressed in the United States against the policies of the Israeli government.
Nowadays, of course, anyone, wherever they happen to be based, who has the temerity to question the actions of the Israeli state is automatically branded an anti-Semite.
Oh, and the video response of Norman Finkelstein (a man whose parents survived the Nazi concentration camps) to the vile Margaret Hodge’s shameful accusation against Jeremy Corbyn is excellent:
Gwyn : Thank you for the Finkelstein clip, a most moving and apt inclusion to your post. In Dame Margaret Hodge’s attempt to demonise Mr Corbyn, as the Russian and terrorist tropes proved to gain little traction, she evidently thought antisemitism would be a trick which just might work. The sad thing (for her) is that she herself can now be seen to be antisemitic in the true sense as she devalues the plight and memory of jewish victims and others of the Holocaust as described by Mr Finkelstein.
It would certainly be historically accurate to have summarised Margaret Hodge’s leadership of Islington council three decades ago as the actions of ‘a f***ing incompetent, ostrich-like, paedophile-appeasing, stonewalling c**t of the first order’, although Mr Corbyn was by no means exemplary when ordering his priorities as an Islington MP during the times so devastatingly summarised in the White Report in 1995.
So I am not quite sure why Ms Hodge is so smarmy and self righteous…..
“I am not quite sure why Ms Hodge is so smarmy and self righteous…..”
Because she is enormously wealthy, perhaps? And not very bright.
When psychopaths/sociopaths are cornered, they attack.
They have no concept of self reflection.
They are akin to rabid dogs.
They will suffocate on their own vomit.
The anti-Semitism accusation is is the go-to trope used by the Zionists to attack anyone who dares criticise Israel and their genocide and land-grabbing in Palestine. The possibility of Jeremy Corbyn becoming PM is what terrifies them, because of his long support for the Palestinian cause. However JC has already committed political hari-kari by his declared stance on opposing a no-deal Brexit. Labour loyalists consider this a betrayal and will depart the Party in droves. JC is insufficiently ruthless to lead such a fractious Party as Labour and Tom Watson is a traitorous dog. Chris Williamson was a solid supporter of JC, and his suspension, without objections from loyalists is a shock. Labour is in disarray and an election looming. A clean out of Blairite activists is required soon before the Party becomes irrelevant. Nigel Farage Brexit party will gain many votes from both Tories and Labour in an election,… Read more »
Tom Watson should have been expelled long ago. I expect his local constituency party is looking at their options now.
My suspicion is that his constituency party might be part of the problem. It is no coincidence that he is one of several West Midland Labour MPs distinguished as unrepentantly right wing. Birmingham City Council is ruled by a Labour Group which is notorious for its Thatcherite policies, for example. For many years inner city parties kept their membership numbers very low and made it difficult for outsiders to join and impossible for them to exercise their democratic rights. In such circumstances corrupt cliques flourish until the rot becomes so bad that the electorate gets rid of them. There are plenty of examples in Scotland and other old industrial areas: what were once socialist strongholds-the Little Moscows of the valleys, for example- become bases for ultra right members, Kinnock, Blair and Mandelson all sat for old mining constituencies which had voted Labour for generations. One of the advantages, for local… Read more »
Painfully accurate assessment of West Midlands politics, Bevin. Watson was very involved with the mayoral election no-one wanted – but, not that it will make any difference, his candidate lost.
‘Fiefdoms’ is the word.
There can be no Jewish state until the return of the Messiah, no Zionist, no Zionism and no Israel….so say the Hassidic – others say they’re not a Zionist and dont follow Zionism because it’s Nationalist and Extreme, so they consider themselves Israeli alone – others say being a Zionist is Spiritual but they don’t follow Zionism because that would be Political and the two shouldn’t be allied….and for some, being a Zionist is just being part of the country and has no connection to a Faith or Politics ….Them being a few of the varied examples of how Jewish people Living in Israel define -Zionist and Zionism. So how can it be that the meaning is concluded to be so singularly absolute by those living Outside of Israel ?…..is it perhaps because “their” take on the words, are as Weapons ?……now that would be naughty – kind of thing… Read more »
Can you add an explanation why Mohammed needed a dream to lay a claim on far away Jerusalem too? He never went there in his physical body.
Hint: it was the only other “Holy” place he knew about – for Jews and Christians.
Jerusalem was originally the most holy place in Islam, above Mecca. Moslems were instructed to pray facing Jerusalem. This only changed later. The Prophet travelled there in his famous Night Journey, when he ascended up to Heaven from what is now the Rock of The Dome Of The Rock, the oldest moslem religious building in existence. The Rock tried to rise up with him, and he had to press it down to stop it, leaving the imprint of his foot in the rock. He met Allah, Jesus and Moses in Heaven, where he was given all the tenets of the moslem faith. Of course, some people don’t believe this and think it is all a load of old bo**ocks and religious fairy stories, as they are perfectly entitled to do. Other people don’t believe in religious fairy stories concerning a non existent Exodus, and fictitious characters like Moses, David and… Read more »
Just to add a couple of points to this splendid analysis. First the Guardian is the key engine of disinformation, at the least in the liberal sphere, producing endlless articles associating antisemitism with Corbyn or his supporters then either shutting down the right to reply or censoring views that deviate too far from their predetermined narrative. To add insult to injury the Guardian produce little or no evidence to substantiate the serious allegations they make, they just have to be taken as read: to challenge them is in itself a form of racism. Yet once tainted by this Kafkaesque process it is assumed the accused have not merely said something wrong rather their utterance somehow encompasses the entireity of their worldview: in other words it is a sure sign that they are defective human beings for having failed to learn the lessons of the holocaust. It is clear Freedland, Viner… Read more »
The Deep State in the US and UK have basically promoted very similar tropes to vilify and delegitimise elected leaders it disapproves of. In the US, Trump was targeted from the moment he was elected by the MSM, the Spooks and Dirty Cops, the Washington Swamp, the Big Corporate interests, the Zionist Lobby and of course the Democrats in a ludicrous campaign of vilification smearing him as a Russian spy. Britain played a significant part in this, with the Steele Dossier and other dirty tricks, as it has on other recent occasions, the Syria Gas Attack Hoaxes, Skripal, and further back Litvinenko. Few people will have a great deal of sympathy with Trump. You could just argue he is the victim of a domestic regime change operation of the sort he is himself directing against Iran and Venezuela. But destroying the institutions of the state to remove a leader is… Read more »
Spot on! The encouraging thing is that very few ordinary people take tha anti Semetism issue as credible; it’s ‘recognised’ as a political ploy, some sort of power struggle. But will it persuade people to vote Tory when the time comes? I doubt it.
So do I. Just before the last election the Mail gave over the first 14 pages to smears against old Jezza, with Sid Scurvy, Ace Reporter, revealing all about how Jezza is a communist spy, Jezza is a terrorist, Jezza is (yes, everybody now) anti semitic, Jezza kicks his dog, Jezza cheats at cards, Jezza uses non organic fertilizer down his allotment, Jezza suspected of cannibalism and devil worship. The results were fairly underwhelming, with old Jezza on the heels of the Maybot despite all the predictions (and fervent hopes of the Blairites) that Labour would be annihilated. You wonder what the result would have been without all the non stop backstabbing. But as the defectors have since admitted, the last thing they wanted was a Labour victory. The point is, though, all the third rate presstitute MSM hacks have an inflated idea of their own importance. Nobody believes their… Read more »