148

Discuss: MH17 “suspects” named

Dutch Prosecutors have finally – five years later – named the first suspects in the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over the Donbass region of Ukraine in July 2014.

To absolutely no one’s surprise, they are Russian.

Well, three Russians and one Ukrainian.

The announcement was made by Dutch prosecutors at a press conference this afternoon (Wed 19th). The names are Igor Girkin, Sergey Dubinskiy, Oleg Pulatov and Leonid Kharchenko. All four have been involved in fighting for the independence of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine since the coup government launched their assault on the region in 2014.

All four are also – allegedly – either ex-Russian soldiers or ex-intelligence operatives. But as we have seen with the Skripal case, and various other incidents in recent years, the mainstream media play pretty fast and loose with accusations of “Russian spy”.

Most telling, perhaps, is the fact that, though all four are Russian or associated with Russia, none are actually officially affiliated with the Russian government or Russian military. Considering the accusations that have been flying around since the incident occurred, this could be considered a cautious first official charge, or even a form of climbdown. A token charge, to refresh the anti-Russia sentiment and distract from other issues.

The charges themselves are largely moot, seeing as the Russian constitution forbids the extradition of Russian citizens. There will be no trial at which the accused are present, meaning the Dutch prosecutor – if they choose to proceed – will have to try the men in absentia, or hold a ludicrous “inquiry” that mirrors the Litvinenko farce the UK held in 2015.

Within 2 hours The Guardian had 3 stories dedicated to it – including one each by inveterate anti-Russia propagandists Luke Harding and Shaun Walker. This is very speedy writing.

Considering the verbiage dedicated to this subject it is remarkable what information they neglected to include:

So, the questions become:

  1. Can you trust the findings of an investigation of which one of the main suspects was an active member, with veto power?
  2. How reliable are “citizen journalists” when they are funded by US gov’t backed NGOs?
  3. Why are they making this announcement now? Is it to stoke anti-Russia feeling, or just a distraction?
  4. Will there be more charges? Or more sanctions as a result of these charges?
  5. Was the investigation “politically motivated as Dr Muhamad claimed?
  6. Will the Dutch prosecute these men in absentia?
  7. Would that process violate their rights?
This is an open thread, and maybe be subject to updates as the story progresses. You can read our older coverage of MH17 here.
avatar
  Subscribe  
newest oldest most voted
Notify of
TFS
TFS

You know, sometimes getting up a watching the world muddle through via the window of the internet and tv becomes a right pain when my left testicle starts itching. It usually happens when my BS radar starts whinning, coincidenly usually when some SpartUSAn starts spouting off.

The investigation was so clever and thorough it

1. Forgot to get all the Spy satellite data from the Americas over head at the time.
2. Forgot to get all the radar data from the Ukrainians.
3. Forgot to get the black box from the Su25 (sorry Mig 29) in the air nr MH17 at the time of the shootdown.

One could only envisage what would have happend if the wrekage had fallen on Russian soil. Can you imagine?

Stef B
Stef B

The OVV (Dutch Safety Board) accident investigation actually offers some insight what really happened, if you go beyond the executive summary. The text is a terrible compromise between people trying to do their job and political pressure to push the Russia-did-it narrative.

On page 239 of the accident investigation it states that the UKRAINIAN ARMY deployed powerful air-defence systems (i.e. BUK) in the eastern part of the Ukraine. The Ukraine therefore had the means and a motive. The Ukraine is a criminal suspect yet they are part of the criminal investigation team(!). This is a travesty of justice. It also demonstrates that the Dutch have no intention to get a verdict from an independent judge in a criminal case in accordance with national and international law. Getting the Ukraine “on board” is a fatal flaw in the criminal investigation. This decision was not based on the available facts at that moment in time, it was a political decision.

Normally, the accident investigation should have been conducted by the Ukrainians. They may claim that their aviation authorities are not up to the task, while in fact the have a conflict of interest. The accident investigation was delegated to the Dutch OVV. The Dutch were heavily involved in the NATO backed coup in the Ukraine in February 2014, for instance the financing of Hromadske TV. The Dutch suffer from the same conflict of interest. The findings of the OVV are not beyond the shadow of a doubt because of this situation. The accident investigation should have been done by authorities without skin in the game.

The “evidence” that has been shared with the public consists of “intercepted communications” provided by the notoriously unreliable Ukrainian SBU and some shaky stuff on the internet, laundered by Bellingcat. Bellingcat is funded by NED, Soros, NATO, the usual suspects. Investigative journalism is not what they are paid for. They are paid to spread propaganda and launder information. No wonder the Integrity Initiative lists them as a partner organization. Dan Kaszeta works for both Bellingcat and the Integrity Initiative, for instance the Skripal case and fake chemical weapon attacks in Syria. They work hand in glove with organizations like the OCCRP, funded by the same entities.

Various Dutch government agencies buy expensive OSINT training from Bellingcat. A Dutch charity lottery provided them with 500.000 euros to set up an office in The Hague. This “charity” also provided tens of millions to the Clinton Foundation, it is among the biggest sponsors worldwide. Bill Clinton is one of their ambassadors.

Just like the the Amsterdam based Mayday Rescue Foundation was used to funnel hundreds of millions (including millions of Dutch taxpayer money) to various Al Qaeda linked terrorist organizations in Syria, Bellingcat is a tool to further the agenda of it sponsors, based in The Netherlands and protected by the Dutch government. When journalists got hold of documents that shed light on terrorist funding in Syria by the Dutch government, the dossier was labeled top secret to prevent further investigation. The concept of support for the “armed moderate opposition” in another country sounds very legitimate, right?

In 2014 Dutch politicians sought legal advice from various experts in the MH17 case. How to get financial compensation for the victims and how to get the perpetrators in court. The ICC was not the preferred route, according to these experts, since they actually want to see some solid evidence. The European Court of Human Rights does not require such strict evidence in a “right to life” case. The Dutch government is pushing the next of kin of the victims to get Russia on trial in a “right to life” case with the ECHR. The legal experts stated that the Ukrainians should have closed their airspace for civil aviation. Since they failed to do this, the Ukraine should be held accountable for their failure to protect the right to life of the passengers and crew of MH17. The Dutch government is trying to prevent the next of kin of the victims to pursue this route with the ECHR. If the Ukraine needs to pay up, they might spill the beans.

The criminal investigation is a sham. Why did the Ukraine not provide primary radar data? Why did the Ukraine not provide information on the whereabouts of it’s BUK installations? Why did the Ukraine not provide access to (the records of) it’s BUK missile inventory? Why did the US not provide the satellite imagery that exists according to John Kerry?

Yes, it was the Ukrainian army that shot down MH17. Yes, Dutch politicians decided to cover it up and point fingers towards Russia. Top secret.

Einstein
Einstein

I keep posting and get emails from you saying there’s a reply and neither my posts nor any reply are evident.

Ruth
Ruth

Not long before the downing of the plane, the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal, found the State of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre

Ruth
Ruth

I believe a Malaysian plane was chosen to be shot down for revenge and of course to set up Russian and again another Malaysian plane was targetted for revenge but also to try out technology to take over a plane.

Maggie
Maggie

Hi Ruth, I believe this was the REAL reason for the attack on the MH17.
Anyone who ‘dares’ to criticize Israhell is in line for a disaster…
That they got to frame Russia for it was bonus for the neo cons..
But so transparent, my nine year old could have written a better script.
It’s not as if they haven’t used the same MO before against Lybia/Lockerbie.

Maggie
Maggie

Oh, and I almost ‘forgot’… this comment from Pepe Escobar:
First MH370 passenger airliner vanished from Planet Earth. Then MH370 vanished from the news cycle.
Then, MH17 was shot down by “Putin’s missile” — as Planet Earth was told. Then MH17 vanished from the news cycle.
Where’s Baudrillard when we need him? Had he been alive, the dervish of simulacra would have already deconstructed these two Malaysian planes as mirror images; from absolute vanishing to maximum exposure, then vanished again. They might as well have been abducted — and shot — by aliens. Now you see them, now you don’t.

Black boxes, data recorders — everything MH17 is now floating in a black void. The British are taking forever to analyse the data — and if they have already done so, they are not talking. It’s as if they were singing, I see a black box / and I want it painted black … void.

The Pentagon, with 20-20 vision over Ukraine, knows what happened. Russian intelligence not only knows what happened but offered a tantalizing glimpse of it in an official presentation, dismissed by the “West.”
The best technical analyses point not to “Putin’s missile” — a BUK — but to a combination of R-60 air-to-air missile and the auto-cannon of an Su-25.
https://www.greanvillepost.com/2014/08/17/vanishing-point/

That’ll teach Malaysia to pass opinions about Israhell.

Lochearn
Lochearn

I link to an old but still great article on MH17 by Pepe Escobar called Vanising Point. As the “reader” Pepe refers to I feel quite proud to have had a small input.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2014/08/17/vanishing-point/

Einstein
Einstein

The Netherlands used to be a respectable, honest country.
Now we have the cherry-picking Hague Court, OPCW farce and the JIT fabrication.
What has happened to the Dutch?

wardropper
wardropper

The neocon plague strikes without respect for any national boundaries.
The current situation was planned decades ago, and by now all the important positions have been filled by these carriers – the modern equivalent of the rat fleas which carried the Black Death of yore.
Not sure what the answer is.
Black Plague just had to run its course . . .

mark
mark

The same thing that happened to the Swedes. They’ve been bought.

Einstein
Einstein

Yeh, it seems that way.
But who’s doing the buying?
Is that what the battle in the UK is about? US or EU?
Who’s the higher bidder?
Can the UK be ‘bought’?

Ruth
Ruth

No, it’s one of the buyers

Ray Raven
Ray Raven

They have been bought.
All major parliamentary political parties have a very strong entity that they have to vouch ‘friendship’ to.

MICHAEL LEIGH
MICHAEL LEIGH

Certainly Einstein, just look at the 21 billion sterling May’s government spent on their first day in power buying USA nuclear weapons and launching equipments, long before her spouse Philip’s company lands another worthless and disasterous public sector account, and as is it’s practise when it fails collects millions in cancelation clauses fees, enough to top up Theresa and Philips suisse off-shore retirement funds, all hands-free according to the May family trustee’s a highly remunerated offshore ‘ blind fund manager ‘ ?

And, just to imagine that Mde May is dining in Beligum to add her vote for the new EU Commission head (subject to the EU parliaments automatic confirmation) of “annonting fraulen Mekel “.

And, of course Angela’s half a million for life pension- which is of course on top of whatever ” goodies ” the former left-wing socialist has from the re-united Deutschlander State.

Einstein
Einstein

But who’s bought them?
Is that what Brexit’s about?
A bidding war between the EU and the US?

Antonym
Antonym

Just dangle a high EU post to its present PM (Rutte) and he will make anything happen.

Idiot Savant
Idiot Savant

Europe is gradually becoming a vassal of the Neo-Con Deep State, acknowledging fealty to the Exceptional Empire of the USA and its proxies, Israel and Saudi Arabia – however, whether or not the EU should be broken up is a debatable point.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee

‘… becoming.’ a vassal state. It is said that the UK became a vassal state with the Suez fiasco in 1956. Actually this vassalization took place in 1946 with the US loan to the UK; with the loan set with conditionalities which would outdo the IMF. Where Britain went the rest of Europe followed becoming a wretched set of Petainist yes men in a post-war Vichy occupation. Things haven’t changed much since then.

idiot savant
idiot savant

I agree

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

Yet again no mention of the monumental Shanghai Cooperation Organisation meeting last week – at the same time as the Oil Tanker firework display.

The meeting where Russia took over the presidency of the organisation which covers two thirds of Eurasia and HALF the worlds population.

Putin made a speech, they even put it out in a english translation, available here
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/60750

A reading of which will reveal that the SCO has called time on the FUKUS anglo imperialism and is demanding that their tanks are removed from the SCO lawns.
From Turkey to the South China Sea.

SE Asian countries are major trading partners of the SCO, including Malaysia and Japan.

But why isn’t anyone writing about it? Including Off-G?

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour

I would like to know, if following the investigation into the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, and the subsequent murder charges being brought against these people, will an independent tribunal open the case of Iran Air flight IR655 which was shot down by USS Vincennes in 1988, and press murder charges against ex Captain Will Rogers 111, and other members of the crew who fired missiles that day.
At the end of the day, NOBODY really knows what happened to MH17, but everyone knows who the guilty party was in the case of IR655.

Haltonbrat
Haltonbrat

Was there not a story that Malaysia had upset Israel by their support for Palestine and hence had to be punished?

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker

Punished twice, allegedly.

Antonym
Antonym

And punish the Netherlands too with ~ 200 deaths , big friend of Israel?

No, this is another case of seeing Israel behind every bush and tree.

Grafter
Grafter

It’s just like a big washing machine. Put in all that dirty hidden evidence, soiled accusations and smeared innuendo not forgetting to remove any unwanted objects which may damage the wash cycle. Then you add in the number one ingredient…Skripal Soap Powder. There it goes rinsing out those nasty truth stains and giving your fabric-ation that whiter than white appearance. You may be disappointed in this case however because those ugly looking stains still remain and guess what ?.. They smell of shit.

tunde

I feel desperately saddened for the families who lost loved ones in this disaster, people blissfully unconcerned or unconnected with the nonsense going on between Russia, Ukraine and the NATO alliance. The families will never get closure because there are blatant lies being spread by both sides. Each with their own perverted agendas.
Rest in peace to the victims.

Moscow Exile
Moscow Exile

19 июн, 21:37 176 152

Доказательством по делу MH17 стала переписка солдата с девушкой
В расследовании JIT о крушении MH17 приводится переписка российского военного и некой Анастасии. Страница девушки оказалась фейковой, а военный заявил, что в показанных следователями материалах «все нарисовано»

Proof given in the MH17 case is the correspondence of a soldier with a girl

In the JIT investigation of the MH17 crash is the correspondence of a Russian military person and a certain Anastasia. The girl’s [social network] page turned out to be fake, and the military person said that in the materials shown by the investigators “everything had been painted in”.

In the investigation by the International Investigation Team (JIT) about the Malaysian Boeing 777 crash over the Donbas in 2014, there is the correspondence of a Russian military person with a certain Anastasia.

The JIT believes that the aeroplane was shot down by a Buk installation that belonged to the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade. The report presents the correspondence of a soldier of the 2nd battalion of this brigade (presented in documents as M) with a certain Anastasia.

M claims that he went to Rostov with soldiers from the third battalion, but after the city of Millerovo, they headed the other way. When asked to clarify where the 3rd battalion had gone, he says he can only give a hint, and quotes from the song: “The order is given to him: To the west; to her: In the other direction”. Further correspondence runs as follows:

Anastasia: To blue and yellow, or what?

M: Well, not to the state ). And you not only look beautiful, but you are smart as well.

During the presentation, JIT showed a blurred photo from Anastasia’s page. “The Bell” managed to find her account. This publication concluded that this is a fake page, based on the fact that the photos of the girl are used by several accounts. The page had been actively filled in only from April to August 2015, and she had 26 persons classified as “friends”.

She had a certain Maxim Gerasimov as a “friend”. After having opened his account, Gerasimov limited access to his page. “The Bell” claims that on his page were published photos of the parade ground on the territory of the military unit 32406 in Kursk, where the 53rd brigade is based.

Gerasimov himself said to Open Media that the correspondence shown by JIT is a fake. “It’s all fake. There was no such conversation. Everything there has been written in”, he said. At the same time, Gerasimov confirmed that he spoke with Anastasia, who, in his words, “was just added as a friend and began to write”. He could not provide correspondence with her, explaining that he had deleted the dialogue long ago.

On Wednesday, JIT named those suspected for causing the downing of MH17. They were three Russians and a Ukrainian: Igor Girkin (Strelkov), Oleg Pulatov, Sergey Dubinsky and Leonid Kharchenko.

All of which above will be ridiculed by the “free world” as it is in possession of irrefutable proof of Russian guilt in this matter provided by no other than Elliot Higgins, formerly senior fellow in the Digital Forensic Research Lab and Future Europe Initiative, both projects run by the Atlantic Council.

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/06/no_author/the-downing-of-malaysian-airlines-mh17-mahathir-opens-a-ukraine-political-pandoras-box/

No comment, other than the latest NATO legal moves and the subsequent MI7 Guardian & Co. propaganda was wholly to be expected, given Malaysia’s new position. 😉

JudyJ
JudyJ

I see that the Malaysian PM has wasted no time in describing the JIT accusations against the four ‘suspects’ as “ridiculous”. Good for him. And, much to my surprise, the BBC has reported on this. No doubt it will disappear from their radar before we know it, when the Government’s attention is re-directed to issues beyond the competition to be the new PM.

JudyJ
JudyJ

As an addendum to my comment at 3.40 p.m., I was deluded to be so naïve about objectivity on the part of the BBC. I have read the BBC’s online article about the Malaysian PM’s comments and see that they felt obliged to mention at the end that Malaysia are in the process of agreeing trade deals with Russia. The Daily Mail has similar coverage.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48702115

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins

Well spotted, Judyj 🙂

The ubiquitous Russian distraction 😉
T.U.R.D. 4short 😉

George
George

A government backed “non-governmental organization”. Have these people no sense of irony? Also beware the terms “non-profit and “non-partisan”. They are always bullshit.

TFS
TFS

Now, where is the BBC piece on Ukraine hiding its fighters within the vicinity of Aircraft like MH17?

Baron
Baron

If the shooting down of the MH17 airline was a crime then the key question that has to be answered, but the Dutch have completely ignored, is that of qui bono.

Five years have passed, the benefits or otherwise of the tragedy are here for everyone to see, Russia is the unquestionable loser. That in itself says everything one needs to know, everything else is just noise.

Tutisicecream

Discuss: MH17 “suspects” named… Harding, Walker and Higgins?

Along with Kerry who said the US had satellite images of where the missile was launched from. None was produced. Now why were flights still being routed over Ukraine? And why was the flight path of MH-17 not investigated. Why were Ukraine’s civil aviation radar systems off that day? And the air traffic controller who disappeared. All simple questions not answered. The memory hole is deep in the dystopian state of Ukraine.

And then why with all this that had happened in a country where a political and quasi-military coup had taken place were the Ukrainians allowed to be part of and have veto power over the investigation of MH-17, while Malaysia who aircraft it was, were not? Why was the black box spirited away to the UK for analysis and no full independent reporting allowed?

None of these fundamental questions have been addressed by the JIT nor the Fraudian’s crack team of bed time story writers.

I wonder why?

William HBonney
William HBonney

The black box is of no relevance to a shooting down.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker

Not at all. There is voice and other aircraft data in the black boxes which may have included the pilots noticing something, and direction of it, before it hit, other aircraft in the sky, etc. Also was the destruction instantaneous, or partial. Lots of data that might potentially add to the overall picture.
Excluding Malaysia is in itself a criminal act as far as I am concerned.

William HBonney
William HBonney

That’s the CVR, not the black box, and again, not relevant. A fighter pilot doesn’t see the missile that takes him down, he detects the radar signature on equipment absent from an airliner.

You are merely spouting conspiracy theory crap.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker

Being abusive doesn’t help your argument at all Mr Bonney, in fact it means you’ve lost it.

I have worked in the avation industry for a few decades and do know some things, I’m not an expert in such investigations but here’s my thinking, very briefly…

If the pilots had seen other unexpected aircraft in their vicinity, even possibly shooting at them, it’s likely their voices and other sounds would be picked up on the voice recorder. Also the type of explosion according to the acoustic profile.

As far as the data recorder is concerned, it could confirm the position and routing of the aircraft independently from external sources which may be incorrect or falsified.

Love and kisses,
Frank.

William HBonney
William HBonney

How was I being abusive? Calling you a bellend is abusive, pointing out that you are posting crap isn’t.

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins

Ding ding, for whom the bell tolls on your Bonney bell – end the crap and somebody,(lord knows who),
might take your trolling more seriously ! ?

As it stands, a rank child outsider, with zero practical working experience or professional training in media research & analysis, would still sound more convincing than you Bill Bonney. Crap is crap and you will never convince anybody in these columns with your pathetic efforts in shilling for empires lost…

So, back to reality Bill Bonney, are you finally up to speed with Bill Binney & OffG, yet !? You know, on the Russia-HOAX, as proven by Bill Binney! Remember that evidentiary documentation which I linked to you, when “May ends in June”, with confirmation of GCHQ’s (Hannigan) request to Boris Johnson to extend their surveillance of Trump, after Trump’s election win … harmonised with the Steele (MI6) Dossier, assisted by Pablo Miller & Skripal, pal, all paid for by Fusion GPS, with full cognisance of the FBI’s top goat Comey & deputy McCabe & all orchestrated on DS command by Obama & HRC >>>
You know, the HOAX that Peter Strzok & Lisa Page called their “insurance policy “, in their lovey-dovey SMS exchange, even more laughably on FBI official phones , i.e. the Russia-HOAX that suckered you, hook line & sinker ! ? How utterly crass ? words cannot suffice, but legally speaking Treason USA & the UK’s GCHQ Foreign interference & assistance in same, will do for starters.

Should that all still not suffice for you, just type ‘Operation Charlemagne’ into your browser and get a real shiner from the truth about Occhienero and the Italian Job, harmonised with the CIA’s Marble programme (as evidenced in Wikileaks Vault 7), whereby the Italian secret services & Ukrainian are also fully implicated in this Russia-HOAX, with GCHQ and your combined efforts at paranoid propaganda … Like Guccifer2:0, all hilarious today, with the exception of the murder of Seth Rich, who was the real source of Julian Assange & Wikileaks’ release of the DNC material, that was all leaked by Seth, NOT hacked by Russia !

Bill Bonney D’Bellend of Bellingcat or Langley, who cares, either way you are wholly on the wrong side of history & science, pal, in the Jam,
‘That’s entertainment’ , with classic apprentice comments like this …

” The black box is of no relevance to a shooting down.”

Son: You’re fired ! sorry but,

Jeeeez, some mothers do ‘ave ’em 😉

get a real job, you pimp 🙂 coz’ you’re a third rate pimp, at best;

& why not read this, lol, just for fun

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk

Limpet mines, above the Waterline, with Abe in Tehran ?

Apprentices everywhere these days, in fact Bill, it is only apprentices like you, with zero moral fibre & intellect, that will willingly attempt to
perpetuate their own sense of self importance & ego, for a dime a dozen crappy comments, on behalf of secret service ‘grey’ squirrels’ absurd attempt to control all Knowledge & Science.

The Bells The Bells are ringing “Shame Shame Shame” 🙂 – Shirley & Co.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEzQV75LDL0

Some of us will never forget that the 1974 ‘B’ side was titled,
” More Shame ” 🙂
Surely 😉

Search first within . . . for faecal remains of the day.

William HBonney
William HBonney

You are going to get sectioned if you persist in posting gibberish. Take your meds

Ray Raven
Ray Raven

You’re the one on meds.
Stop taking them and hopefully you’ll disappear.

William HBonney
William HBonney

(laughs) you really don’t understand the point of meds, do you?

Can you honestly say Tim Jerkoff’s post made any sense whatsoever? The guy is a fruitcake.

Mark

The black box really only establishes whether or not the plane stopped flying because of an onboard mechanical or electrical malfunction, and there is plenty of evidence that the plane crashed because it was struck by a missile. It is who fired it which remains the point of argument. However, that discussion is muddled by the regular attempts of Ukraine and its western backers to introduce bogus ‘evidence’ such as the dented missile body they say they ‘found in the wreckage’.

That evidence is strictly for dolts who think an anti-air missile works like a harpoon, and pierces the aircraft and rides it to its death. The plane struck the earth some 15 kilometers from where it was hit, and the point at which it was hit and somewhat underneath is where they would have found the missile body. The missile itself never touched the aircraft; its warhead exploded via proximity fuse when it sensed it was nearest the target, blasting the cockpit with pre-fragmented shrapnel, and the missile body fell more or less straight down. It would have been far away from where the wreck impacted.

Added to that is the fact that a Buk launcher on its own has only a rudimentary radar with a tiny field of view; it is designed to be part of a complex which features four launchers, an acquisition-radar vehicle from which the launchers takes their cues, and a command vehicle – six in all. It’s asking a lot to believe a single launcher knew exactly where to look so that its onboard radar pinpointed the target, acquired a firing signal and managed to get a missile away all in the minute or so it would take for an airliner flying at 350+ knots to cross its field of view. It is not suitable for tracking, and must be pointed at the target; that’s what the acquisition radar is for.

intp1
intp1

Factual evidence is of no relevance whatsoever in these matters, including TWA Flight 800, Iraqi WMDs, 9/11, Syrian CW claims, Skripal Poisonings, Russian US Election Collusion, Iran´s compliance with NPT & JCPOA and on & on.
They don´t care or bother to do a good job of manufacturing evidence. That arrogance is now part of the PsyOP recipe.

alaff

Inclusion(!) of Ukraine (that is, one of the suspects) into the commission investigating a crime. A complete surrealism.
It would be interesting to look at Anders Breivik in the “commission of inquiry”, identifying the perpetrators of terrorist attack. Or at Wilhelm Göring among the judges of the Nuremberg trial. Just wonderful.

The direct responsibility of Ukraine for the airspace above the combat zone not closed for civil Aviation was not taken into account, although this is the main reason why it all happened. Unclosed airspace was only briefly mentioned and immediately forgotten.

The testimony of eyewitnesses about the direction from which the missile was launched was ignored.

The wreckage of the downed aircraft remained lying on the site of the crash — apparently, the JIT did not need it.

The records from black boxes for some mysterious reasons still have not been demonstrated to public.

Malaysia was not allowed to decipher the black boxes. For some reason.

The stubborn refusal of Ukraine to provide their primary radar data was considered insignificant.

The primary radar data voluntarily provided by Russia (and unequivocally proving the absence of a missile launch by the Donbass militia) were considered unworthy.

A satellite images, loudly declared by the US and allegedly proving the direction of the launch of the missile by the Donbass militia, five years later are still not made public. However, it took the US just a few hours to show videos and photos after the incident with tankers in the Gulf of Oman.

The sudden and strange “suicide” of one of the key witnesses, the Ukrainian pilot Vladislav Voloshin, did not lead to certain thoughts.

The girl, the airport dispatcher, who directed the course of the plane, and who was strangely missing, was not even taken into account. The girl just quietly dissolved in time and space. No one cares.

A large-scale scientific experiments (repeat, a scientific ones), conducted by Almaz-Antey corporation and unequivocally refuting the JIT version (based on data from Internet) about the direction of the missile’ launch, was ignored. Five years later, these critical data are still stubbornly ignored by the JIT.

International Commission to Investigate the Malaysian Boeing crash in its final report falsified the research results introduced by Almaz-Antey Air Defense Concern. And it is Ok.

The declassified data of the Russian Ministry of Defense on BUK’ characteristics (BUK missiles 9M38 and 9M38M1) were ignored. Btw, the data was declassified by Russia voluntarily.

The JIT simply ignored the most important data of the detailed press conference of the Ministry of Defense of Russia, at which the original documents showing the identity of the missile to Ukraine were demonstrated.

At the press conference, the Ministry of Defense of Russia stated the availability of data proving that the video on which the BUK is being transported was falsified. The fake nature of this video was proven by other experts, still 3-4 years ago (see the in-depth analysis here, for example – https://energia.su/mh17/). The JIT just ignored it. The JIT is still building its “conclusions” on this falsified video.

Malaysian Minister of Transport Anthony Loke declared the absence of evidence against Russia and her non-involvement in the incident. The politician was simply ignored.

The Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad bluntly declared the investigation bias and political order, and also made it clear that he did not believe in Russia’s involvement. The JIT simply ignored the words of the politician.

Regular official statements by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia and other Russian officials on full openness and willingness to cooperate, in readiness to assist in the investigation are simply ignored. Instead, the JIT frankly lies, saying that “Russia refuses to fully cooperate”.

Not even mentioning that the JIT did not consider it necessary to at least come to Russia, clarify some information here, interview experts, possible witnesses, get acquainted with some documents, data, files etc. Though, why all this? Remote investigation based on some photos, videos and records from the Internet is much more reliable, isn’t it?

Now tell me this is a honest, competent, not biased and transparent investigation.
Yep.

By the way, the answer to the 4th question is quite obvious. The press conference was held essentially the day before the next vote on the extension of anti-Russian sanctions. You know, possible doubters should take into account the “guilt of Russia” and vote correctly.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig

The girl, the airport dispatcher, who directed the course of the plane, and who was strangely missing, was not even taken into account. The girl just quietly dissolved in time and space. No one cares.

Are you referring to the mysterious ‘@spainbucca’ Twitter account here? How/when did they finally establish that it was a girl? Just wondering …

alaff

I’m talking about dispatcher Anna Petrenko.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig

BTW, nice handle! Küss do us Kölle?

Matt
Matt

It’s been a long while since I’ve posted here. The new website looks good. Hope Admin and everyone else have been well.

I’ve been critical of Russia’s lies about MH17 for some time now and have a rebuttal to all of your points. The Chief Prosecutor of the JIT MH17 investigation has already debunked these points in various interviews:

https://www.novayagazeta.ru/articles/2017/10/16/74192-the-purpose-is-to-bring-this-matter-to-court

Inclusion(!) of Ukraine (that is, one of the suspects) into the commission investigating a crime.

This is a common claim made by the Kremlin and others, but makes no sense once you think about it. Where did the crash happen? Ukraine. Therefore, the investigators needed to cooperate with Ukraine to get access to the crash area. By default, merely because the crash happened in Ukraine, it should be a member of the investigation. The Chief Prosecutor himself said that if the crash had happened in Russia, then it would have been made a member of the investigation.

The direct responsibility of Ukraine for the airspace above the combat zone not closed for civil Aviation was not taken into account, although this is the main reason why it all happened. Unclosed airspace was only briefly mentioned and immediately forgotten.

That is a cop-out. The criminal investigation deals with those responsible for the shootdown itself. As for those who may have enabled it, that is a matter for the lawyers of the victims’ families. It does not apply here.

The wreckage of the downed aircraft remained lying on the site of the crash — apparently, the JIT did not need it.

This is completely false. The JIT painstakingly collected various prices of the plane and partially reconstructed the plane. A few pro-Russian “journalists” found some tiny, irrelevant pieces of the plane and used this to attack the JIT as being “careless”. Just like you are doing.

The records from black boxes for some mysterious reasons still have not been demonstrated to public.

What obligation is there to show this to the public? As long as the judges can hear it, it’s fine. We already have their transcript. What else do you want?

Malaysia was not allowed to decipher the black boxes. For some reason.

Also false. This remarkable claim was also made by Malaysian PM Mohatir, who is clueless about the entire investigation. The JIT report literally states that there was a Malaysian representative present when the black boxes were deciphered. Amateur hour.

The stubborn refusal of Ukraine to provide their primary radar data was considered insignificant.

They never refused, they simply stated that the radar station that would have collected it had been damaged. Oh, and Russia has been quite dishonest about its own radar data, but we’ll get to that below…

The primary radar data voluntarily provided by Russia (and unequivocally proving the absence of a missile launch by the Donbass militia) were considered unworthy.

Another common claim made by the Kremlin. And also false. Who said that this data was ignored? I’m seriously asking, because you and the Kremlin state this as if it is fact. The JIT has said many times in response to this false claim that they have, in fact, considered Russia’s data.

A satellite images, loudly declared by the US and allegedly proving the direction of the launch of the missile by the Donbass militia, five years later are still not made public. However, it took the US just a few hours to show videos and photos after the incident with tankers in the Gulf of Oman.

Again, who said these images have to be made public? The JIT have already stated that the U.S. has transferred their satellite images to the Dutch, through a classified NATO intelligence-sharing mechanism. Sensitive satellite images of an area right next to one of the Great Powers, that would expose the resolution and range of U.S. satellite sensors, would never be released to the public. Regarding the Gulf of Oman, those were drone images. Completely different in scope.

The sudden and strange “suicide” of one of the key witnesses, the Ukrainian pilot Vladislav Voloshin, did not lead to certain thoughts.

Ah yes, I remember this. Russia has made multiple, contradictory conspiracy theories. One of them involved a Ukrainian aircraft mechanic claiming he “overheard” an SU-25 pilot land with some of his jet’s missiles missing. He also claims he “heard” the pilot state that he accidentally shot down MH17! How convenient 😉 This faker “defected” to Russia and was promptly paraded around on state TV. Never mind that the Russian BUK manufacturer was claiming a Ukrainian bUK shot down MH17, not an SU-25. Contradictions don’t matter to those dumb enough to believe the Kremlin’s lies. Anyway, the pilot that this faker claimed shot down MH17, commit suicide a few years later, due to depression. The disgusting Kremlin media then proceeded to exploit this poor man’s suicide as evidence that he was being “offed” by the “higher ups”. Disgusting scum bags, the whole lot of them.

The girl, the airport dispatcher, who directed the course of the plane, and who was strangely missing, was not even taken into account. The girl just quietly dissolved in time and space. No one cares.

First, that was a male, not a girl. And for those who don’t know the story about Carlos, he’s a fraudulent Spanish guy who falsely claimed to have worked as a Ukrainian Air Traffic Controller when MH17 was shot down, and was subsequently interviewed by RT Spanish and given lavish coverage in Russian state TV. His little story was full of holes and eventually, he was literally tracked down by RFE/RL! Turns out he’s a fraudster – literally, as RFE/RL found out last year, 4 years after the initial hoax. The man was exposed as a former convicted fraudster and admit to have lied about being an ATC and about Ukraine shooting down MH17. Whoops.

https://www.rferl.org/a/catch-carlos-if-you-can-mh17-russia-ukraine/29065244.html

A large-scale scientific experiments (repeat, a scientific ones), conducted by Almaz-Antey corporation and unequivocally refuting the JIT version (based on data from Internet) about the direction of the missile’ launch, was ignored. Five years later, these critical data are still stubbornly ignored by the JIT.

Who said this was ignored? And what happened to the SU-25? I thought that “Carlos”, as well as others in the Russian government, claimed an SU-25 shot down MH17? Don’t get confused!

At the press conference, the Ministry of Defense of Russia stated the availability of data proving that the video on which the BUK is being transported was falsified. The fake nature of this video was proven by other experts, still 3-4 years ago (see the in-depth analysis here, for example – https://energia.su/mh17/). The JIT just ignored it. The JIT is still building its “conclusions” on this falsified video.

Yes, I remember when the BUK transport video was released. The Russian Ministry of Defense pulled a stunt so outrageously stupid that even I was dumbfounded: they claimed that the video of the launcher being transported was “faked” and tried proving it by literally making a similar video with crappy PlayStation 2-era graphics. It would be like me taking a photo of the Eiffel Tower, reconstructing it in cheap 3D graphics (kinda like North Korea’s cheesy nuclear animations) and then saying “Look! I faked this photo, therefore the original photo is also fake!” It’s an insult to people with fully-functioning brains.

Malaysian Minister of Transport Anthony Loke declared the absence of evidence against Russia and her non-involvement in the incident. The politician was simply ignored.. .The Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad bluntly declared the investigation bias and political order, and also made it clear that he did not believe in Russia’s involvement. The JIT simply ignored the words of the politician.

Mahathir knows nothing about his country’s own involvement. Firstly, he is wrong Malaysia not being involved in the deciphering of the black boxes, considering they literally had a representative present during the deciphering. He’s also a well known anti-Western conspiracy theorist, calling Jews “hooked nose” and claiming that flight MH370 was remotely “hijacked”. I sure would trust him to know what happened to MH17! (That was sarcasm).

Regular official statements by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia and other Russian officials on full openness and willingness to cooperate, in readiness to assist in the investigation are simply ignored. Instead, the JIT frankly lies, saying that “Russia refuses to fully cooperate”.

The JIT is telling the truth about Russia not cooperating. The JIT, on May 15 2017, made public a request it sent for legal assistance to Russia. The request was to provide radar recordings of a radar station located in Buturinskaya. 2.5 years after Russia publicly stated it had TWO radar stations that had primary radar capabilities and it still has not given data for one of them. It is a combination of ignorance and Russia not willing to help the investigation.

Russia handed over primary radar data at the end of October 2016 to the Dutch. Russia did so two years after MH17 was shot down. Initially, Russia stated it deleted all of its radar data. However, as a big surprise in October 2016, a company performing maintenance on radar discovered some hard disks with recordings. Russia then got “fake angry” with the Dutch, claiming the latter were “not responding” to Russia’s evidence.. It is very rude to ask for a response three weeks after handing over radar data after holding that radar data for over two years!

However, for the recordings that Russia did hand over, they failed to hand over any radar recording in RAW or ASTERIX format. RAW is required to investigate what exactly happened, as the JIT explains:

In other words: if the data had been submitted according to an internationally recognised standard such as ASTERIX, this would have enabled us to guarantee the integrity of the radar system including its subsystems. Internal checks could have been performed and the data could have been compared very well with data from other radar stations. It would have enabled us to gain better insight into possibly additional detection of objects which had not appeared on the radar screen of the air traffic controller, but that would have been collected by the radar system and stored in the subsystems.

By the way, the answer to the 4th question is quite obvious. The press conference was held essentially the day before the next vote on the extension of anti-Russian sanctions. You know, possible doubters should take into account the “guilt of Russia” and vote correctly.

Ah, so you want to play the timing game, eh? Remember when the Dutch presented its findings about the type of weapon used to shoot down MH17, on October 13, 2015? By sheer “coincidence”, the BUK manufacturer held their own press conference merely a few hours before the JIT, to distract attention. When the BUK manufacturer presenter was asked why their press conference was the same day as the JIT’s, by one of the few Western journalists allowed to ask a question, he replied “It’s just a coincidence”! What a shameless attempt to distract from the truth.

And on that note, I’m calling it a night.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker

Matt, you make some valid points. However…

Russia is a very large, and very complex country. I can imagine all kind of groups and power struggles between them. The country is infamously corrupt too.
Putin and Lavrov could even be fed with lies and they would not know, but their interest lays in keeping this large, dysfunctional juggernaut on the road to reform and improvement.

Meanwhile, it’s on record that the US interests are to break Russia apart into 6 “manageable” pieces. It’s clear that the US is using its “full spectrum dominance” to discredit and ultimately destroy Russia at every opportunity.

I say all this for context.

Returning to MH17, it would not surprise me if there were groups in Russia who are out of governmental control and running amok. They could be supplying weapons to Donbass and the top brass couldn’t do much about it, I would guess. Conversely, the US is well known for disinfo campaigns, false flags and other tactics. I’m not sure that we’ll ever get to hear the real truth about MH17 and I don’t trust what either side are making public on this, it’s all part of a large propaganda war, part of Cold War 2.

Matt
Matt

Thanks for the respectful response, I appreciate it.

In this case, I believe Russia is in the wrong. Too embarrassed to admit that their proxies in Eastern Ukraine accidentally shot down a civilian airliner, the government embarked on a highly-disciplined and multi-year disinformation campaign to distract from who really did it and discredit the JIT.

I’ve never heard about the U.S. wanting to “break up” Russia. It’s commonly claimed in various anti-war websites, but there’s no evidence for it.

I agree that the situation is complex and that we should remember how big and complex a country Russia is. This also helps explain why the GRU fumbled so badly during the failed assassination against Skirpal. The Kremlin was understandably quite displeased by the whole fiasco, so much so, that Putin practically ordered the two assassins to embarrass themselves in public by going on a TV interview.

That is not to say, of course, that the West is always right or that Russia is always wrong. But in these cases, I am deeply convinced that Russia is in the wrong.

alaff

It’s commonly claimed in various anti-war websites, but there’s no evidence for it.

Hmm, you talk about evidence. You need proof.
At the same time, you are completely sure that Russia is wrong, and the Donbass militia allegedly shot down the plane.

Let me ask you, what about the evidence? What confirms this version of you?
Doesn’t it bother you that the evidence (if we talk about serious data/information) says just the opposite? Mean, the innocence of the militia?
Let me remind you that Malaysia, the country included in the JIT, also requires evidence. What the JIT provides for their five-year farce is not evidence in Malaysia’s opinion.

Just a few points to repeat once again:

1) Radar data (provided by Russia) indicate that the missile was not launched by the Donbass militia. It is impossible to deny. Radar data is something that cannot be faked, fabricated. This is objective data.

Two parties are involved in the conflict – the Ukrainian army and the Donbass militia. The missile hit the plane. Radar data clearly indicate that the missile was not launched by the militia. If one of the parties did not launch a missile, then let me ask you what is the logical conclusion from this?

Or you will begin to claim that the militia dressed in the uniform of the Ukrainian army, moved into its territory, launched a missile from there, then quickly returned to their territory. Right?

2) Other important data that cannot be denied are the serial number of the missile, shown by the JIT itself at the presentation.

The original documentation (demonstrated by the Ministry of Defense of Russia) clearly indicates that the missile belongs to the Ukrainian army. I repeat, the missile belongs to the Ukrainian army, not to the Donbass militia, or especially Russia. The entire chain of movement of the missile was tracked – from the moment of production to the transfer it to the Ukrainian army many years ago. By the way, then the missile was transferred to that unit of the Ukrainian army, which was directly involved in the battles in the Donbass in times when MH17 was shot down. Pretty interesting “coincidence”, isn’t it?

Who else could have launched this missile if it belongs to the Ukrainian army?

I don’t understand how a normal sane person can deny it or dispute it.

How could the militia launch this (i.e. Ukrainian) missile from the “Russian BUK”? There are two fantastic options – they somehow stole this missile from the warehouses of the Ukrainian army, then drove the BUK from Russia, loaded the missile into it and (for some reason) shot down the plane. Or the second option – having stolen a missile from the warehouses of the Ukrainian army, the Donbass militia handed it over to Russia so that the Russians loaded it into the BUK, then drove the loaded BUK to the Donbass and launched the missile, shooting down the plane.

I don’t know what should be in the head of a person to believe in any of the described options.

3) Let me remind you that the BUK is not a toy gun. Most people do not know how to shoot even with seemingly uncomplicated weapons – for example, a Kalashnikov machine gun.

The BUK is a very complex equipment consisting of several components. I repeat, several components. The launcher itself, plus the antenna, plus a control point, and other components. Each of the components is a separate all-terrain vehicle or wheeled vehicle.

You want to say that the “Russian BUK” (launcher) was brought to the Donbass and a missile was fired from it, although at the same time there were no other components necessary for launching – an antenna, a control point, etc. How is this possible?

I will give an analogy. Let’s recall the times when an external modem was needed to connect to the Internet.
So, we have an external modem, the computer itself (monitor, system unit, mouse), as well as a printer. Three devices.
You want to print a photo from the web. To do this, you connect all three devices, connect to the Internet, perform the necessary actions on your computer (look at the photo on the Internet, issue a command to print a photo), and then print the photo on the printer.

Tell me, is it possible to print a photo if you leave your modem and computer at home and take the printer somewhere to the park on the other side of the city, where, sitting on a bench under a tree, you will press buttons on it? I think the answer is obvious.

I repeat, the BUK is a very complex equipment. To use it, you need a long preparation, special skills and training, experience.

On the one hand, we have the Ukrainian army, which had (and still have) such BUK systems in service, whose personnel had been trained to use it, knew what to do and “what buttons to press”.

On the other hand, we have the Donbass militia, who (naturally) did not have such systems in service. How could these people know how to use this sophisticated equipment?

Given this, I think it is obvious which side could use the BUK.

You are trying to deny the obvious things, trying to call the white sheet black.
At first, you just heard from other people about the white sheet, but you called it black.
Then you saw a white sheet on TV, but still continued to call it black, saying that on TV they can show anything, any fake.
Then you were given this white sheet, it lies in front of you and you look at it. The sheet is white. But you still say that it is black.

Because you are afraid to leave the comfort zone, to damage your usual “picture of the world”, in which it is convenient and safe for you. This picture has little to do with reality, but you don’t care, and therefore you will continue to believe in any bullshit that corresponds to your “picture of the world”.

The JIT does the same. Denies the obvious things, calls white black. But JIT is not just ‘brainwashed’. In their case, everything is much more serious, because they do it purposefully, deliberately.
They have an obvious political order to “tie” Russia to the downed aircraft by any means. Even if they need to say with a serious face that the Sun revolves around the Earth (and all claims to the contrary are “Russian propaganda”).

JudyJ
JudyJ

alaff,

I should just like to supplement your excellent evaluation. You suggest the only two, highly unlikely, scenarios where the identified BUK missile could fall into the hands of the Donbass separatist militia. Even these suppositions can be discounted.

As part of the JIT investigation, long before the Russian evidence about the history of the missile in question was submitted, Ukraine were routinely asked by the JIT – for the record – if any of their BUK missiles were unaccounted for. They declared categorically that they were all accounted for. So we can see why the subsequent Russian evidence about the history of the missile would present the JIT with some ‘difficulties’.

But, no doubt, some on here would contend that the Russian militia must have gone to the trouble of engraving a ‘Ukraine linked’ ID number on the missile in anticipation of that fragment surviving the explosion and being found. Or Russia have completely falsified the paper trail relating to the missile’s history. In that case why have neither the JIT or Ukraine refuted that evidence rather than just allowed it to disappear into the familiar black hole of inconvenient evidence?

Matt
Matt

alaff,

It is very rude to completely ignore my lengthy reply to your main comment, where I addressed your claims point-by-point and proved Russia has lied about MH17, and just post another comment. Please address my prior comment. Am I wrong or am I right? Still, I will further address your points here:

Let me remind you that Malaysia, the country included in the JIT, also requires evidence. What the JIT provides for their five-year farce is not evidence in Malaysia’s opinion.

I already explained in my prior comment why Malaysia’s comments should not be taken seriously. Not only does their PM know nothing of the investigation, their former Ambassador to the Netherlands repeated several false claims, originally made by Russia, in a newspaper article. Given the PM’s past comments (which I discussed in my earlier comment), and their ambassador’s gullible claims, I would not give their claims any substance, nor take them as the official position taken by those Malaysians actually involved in the investigation.

1) Radar data (provided by Russia) indicate that the missile was not launched by the Donbass militia. It is impossible to deny. Radar data is something that cannot be faked, fabricated. This is objective data.

No, it does not. From an article: “Russia claims the Ust-Donetsk radar is capable of detecting a missile when launched from Snizhne area. It did not detect anything, so there was no missile launched from Snizhne, according to Russia’s Ministry of Defense. Due to radar filtering, a missile launched from Zarochenskoe would not be detected, as the distance from the radar hardly changed during the route of the missile. The radial speed as a result is so low that the radar filters the signal out.

All experts agree the radar must have detected a missile when launched from south of Snizhne. As the radar does not show a missile, and the JIT is certain about Snizhne as launch location, Russia modified the radar recording it showed.

Additionally, the radar located in Baturinskaya (south of Rostov in Russia) which Russia confirmed was able to detect MH17 debris, had an even better view on a missile launched from Zarochenskoe. This radar does for sure not have blind speeds. However Russia did not show primary radar recordings of this radar and avoided mentioning this radar in both press conferences.” Why? This is discussed in far more depth here.

2) Other important data that cannot be denied are the serial number of the missile, shown by the JIT itself at the presentation. The original documentation (demonstrated by the Ministry of Defense of Russia) clearly indicates that the missile belongs to the Ukrainian army. I repeat, the missile belongs to the Ukrainian army, not to the Donbass militia, or especially Russia. The entire chain of movement of the missile was tracked – from the moment of production to the transfer it to the Ukrainian army many years ago. By the way, then the missile was transferred to that unit of the Ukrainian army, which was directly involved in the battles in the Donbass in times when MH17 was shot down. Pretty interesting “coincidence”, isn’t it?

This is completely false, on several levels. Firstly, the Russian MoD never denied that the missiles were built in Russia, but claimed that Russia “destroyed” all BUKs from that batch, according to the serial number. Their claim is that only Ukraine has these missiles in use, and therefore, it was their BUK that shot it down. Thus, absolutely nothing was “tracked”. There is no evidence for that statements of yours. Secondly, Russia has been seen using BUK missiles with serial numbers indicating they were from that batch, clearly contradicting their claim that they destroyed these systems. Lastly, it is ironic to note that the serial number was identified by Bellingcat, from social media, and Russia officially admit that the serial number is valid. There goes all their false claims that you can’t trust anything on social media. Because you can. If the BUK missile casing shown by JIT was an Ukrainian used missile, Russia would have pulled out the sales slip and proven that BUK with this number was sold/transferred to Ukraine. They did no such thing. What does this indicate?

3) Let me remind you that the BUK is not a toy gun. Most people do not know how to shoot even with seemingly uncomplicated weapons – for example, a Kalashnikov machine gun.

On the one hand, we have the Ukrainian army, which had (and still have) such BUK systems in service, whose personnel had been trained to use it, knew what to do and “what buttons to press”.

On the other hand, we have the Donbass militia, who (naturally) did not have such systems in service. How could these people know how to use this sophisticated equipment?

All men in Soviet Ukraine had to undergo 2 years of conscription, which included basic training in the usage of surface-to-air missiles (SAMs). You are Russian, you should know this already. Further, Russia had its special forces embedded in the Donbas militia. This is a fact not even the Russian media have called false. Whether they were present as “volunteers” or on an official mission doesn’t change the fact that highly-trained military men were fighting on the side of the Donbas militia. You also fail to mention the experience level of the 4 people criminally charged with the shootdown: A former colonel in Russia’s FSB. A former GRU officer, who oversaw the transport of the BUK launcher used to down MH17 and who headed the military intelligence of the DNR. And a former lieutenant colonel in the Russian armed forces. If these men were in senior level positions, it is not difficult to imagine that they and their subordinates would know how to operate a BUK.

You want to say that the “Russian BUK” (launcher) was brought to the Donbass and a missile was fired from it, although at the same time there were no other components necessary for launching – an antenna, a control point, etc. How is this possible?

Don’t play dumb. You know full well that a BUK can be used without its command and target acquisition vehicles. It can even be fired completely blind. You have put your finger on the cause of this disaster: poor acquisition. Had the other components been accompanied, the rebels wouldn’t have had to rely solely on the fire control radar and would have had intelligence officers, identification, friend or foe (IFF), etc, as well as a lot more time to think, due to the increased accuracy.

JudyJ
JudyJ

“If the BUK missile casing shown by JIT was an Ukrainian used missile, Russia would have pulled out the sales slip and proven that BUK with this number was sold/transferred to Ukraine. They did no such thing. What does this indicate?”

But they did, last autumn, and the JIT chose to disregard this evidence. What does this indicate?

https://www.rt.com/news/438596-mh17-downing-russian-briefing/

William HBonney
William HBonney

Excellent post, Matt.

I would have more sympathy for the conspiracy theorists commentating here if they applied the same jaundiced eye eastwards, and were cynical about the motivation of all governments.

Ray Raven
Ray Raven

Don’t be ludicrous; he’s your work colleague sitting at an adjacent desk.
You just brought him in; trying the Integrity Initiative one-two; or as the yanks say trying a ‘double down’.

William HBonney
William HBonney

Don’t you think it would be more intelligent to address the OP’s points? Or is countering a well researched post beyond you?

Mark

All right, Billy; let’s do that. Bear with me, it’s a lot of work.

One. Inclusion of Ukraine in the commission investigating the crime. Matt attempts to equate the fact that the crime occurred over Ukraine with a necessity that Ukraine be included. Absolutely. Is there any reason it cannot participate in the investigation as a suspect? Give testimony on happenings without being a member of the investigating team? Is it necessary, to obtain its cooperation, to grant it a veto over the publication of any evidence? Show me a similar investigation, anywhere else, in which the investigating authorities brought the suspect in as an investigator, allowed the suspect unsupervised access to the evidence, and let the suspect decide what the general public was allowed to know about the investigation and its conclusions. The investigation has turned out very satisfactorily for Ukraine, despite no elements of the crime actually occurring in Russia. Is it not possible that allowing Ukraine a free hand in gathering the evidence, formulating the joint narrative and parsing the release of information has resulted in complete exculpation of Ukraine?

Matt’s position is that because the incident happened in Ukraine, naturally Ukraine must be brought into the investigation. That’s only true when the authorities of the subject country are not reasonably thought to have been complicit in it. So the official position of the countries in the JIT was that Ukraine had no part in the crime…before the investigation commenced.

Two. Not discussing Ukraine’s responsibility for the airspace in its country and not closing the airspace over a war zone if it suspected the presence of weaponry capable of reaching an airliner at altitude is a cop-out, and not applicable. Well, let me ask you this; is there a reasonable apprehension that if the aircraft had been routed away from the airspace over Donbas, that it would have reached its intended destination safely and not been shot down at all? But it was. So did the decision not to close the airspace affect what happened to the aircraft, or not? Who is in charge of the airspace over Ukraine? Russia?

Three. The JIT was apparently not interested in wreckage of the plane which remained scattered over the landscape. Some pro-Russian ‘journalists’ drew the attention of the JIT to the location of ‘tiny, irrelevant’ pieces of wreckage, and they weren’t interested. In fact, the JIT painstakingly reconstructed the plane, and didn’t need these tiny irrelevant pieces of wreckage.

In fact, every piece of wreckage might be relevant, but blowing off recovering the odd piece here and there was nothing compared with allowing the Ukrainian army to shell the crash site for months after the crash and before any wreckage at all had been removed – the plane went down in July, and no wreckage was recovered until autumn. The wreckage was thus exposed to all manner of artillery projectiles, compromising the analysis of what projectiles actually brought it down. You would think that if Ukraine was sure Russia did it, they would want to preserve the wreck in as pristine a state as possible. The first pieces of wreckage did not arrive in the Netherlands until December, six months after the crash. The reconstruction of the plane was pretty much limited to the cockpit, since much of the midsection was destroyed by fire. A Russian journalist found the lip of the engine nacelle, featuring a large tear. The DSB did not want to know. The DSB report itself was riddled with errors, misidentifying an aircraft which had been flying to the northeast of MH17 as an Airbus 330 when in fact it was an Air India Boeing 787.

I’m afraid that’s all I have time for, for the moment; I said it would be a lot of work. I’m happy to continue if you are interested. I will not discuss the possibility of an SU-25 being involved because I am satisfied it was a SAM that took down the airliner. Several video clips purport to show another small aircraft in the vicinity immediately after the crash, and it might well have been there and might well have been an SU-25. However, I do not believe it was part of an attack on the airliner. What is far more likely is that it was attempting to use the airliner as cover, to prevent an attack against itself – a practice the eastern militias had complained about on several occasions prior to the downing of MH17. I need hardly point out that a military aircraft using a civilian airliner as cover in a war zone is criminal and dangerous.

To me, the most compelling factor against the popular narrative is the complete unsuitability of a single Buk launcher to engage an airliner at altitude. Not utterly impossible, but possible in a similar way that you could throw an axe in the dark and hit a flying chicken on the other side of the barn.

Matt
Matt

Hi Mark, it has been a long time since we’ve spoken. Hope you’re doing well. I haven’t commented much about Russia on any blogs for the better part of 1.5 years, so it’s good to see you after my very first comment in such a long time!

I posted a reply to alaff’s reply to me, but I believe it is still being moderated.

Is there any reason it cannot participate in the investigation as a suspect? Give testimony on happenings without being a member of the investigating team? Is it necessary, to obtain its cooperation, to grant it a veto over the publication of any evidence? Show me a similar investigation, anywhere else, in which the investigating authorities brought the suspect in as an investigator, allowed the suspect unsupervised access to the evidence, and let the suspect decide what the general public was allowed to know about the investigation and its conclusions

I have never understood this criticism of the JIT. What difference would it have made if Ukraine had been “treated as a suspect”? Considering everything happened over its territory, I can’t think of a single thing that they wouldn’t have been able to do. The JIT would still have required Ukraine’s permission and help to gather the evidence, bodies, etc. The other common criticism is the veto. What difference does a veto over public information make? This is not a public investigation. The JIT still had full access to all information, regardless of what Ukraine wanted to veto from being publicly released. It does not impact the investigation in any manner whatsoever.

Is there a reasonable apprehension that if the aircraft had been routed away from the airspace over Donbas, that it would have reached its intended destination safely and not been shot down at all? But it was. So did the decision not to close the airspace affect what happened to the aircraft, or not? Who is in charge of the airspace over Ukraine? Russia?

Again, this is of no concern to the JIT. It is not within their mandate. The JIT is responsible for investigating who shot down MH17 and how it was shot down, as well as for the criminal trials. Their job is not to find out those legally responsible for the shoot-down; that’s a job for the lawyers of the victims’ families.

In fact, every piece of wreckage might be relevant… the plane went down in July, and no wreckage was recovered until autumn. The wreckage was thus exposed to all manner of artillery projectiles, compromising the analysis of what projectiles actually brought it down… A Russian journalist found the lip of the engine nacelle, featuring a large tear. The DSB did not want to know. The DSB report itself was riddled with errors, misidentifying an aircraft which had been flying to the northeast of MH17 as an Airbus 330 when in fact it was an Air India Boeing 787.

Why would every piece be relevant? All we need to know is what shot MH17 down, and from what direction. What would the lip of the engine nacelle have proven? You already agree that it was BUK. So the only thing left is the direction from which the missile came from. The on-board microphones captured the moment of impact and allowed the JIT to determine the angle and direction: the blast occurred on the upper-left hand side of the cockpit. So the JIT know more than enough from the pieces they found. Regarding that error you mentioned, minor errors are reasonable. What is not good are major errors or assumptions. Which Russia’s various versions contain.

Several video clips purport to show another small aircraft in the vicinity immediately after the crash, and it might well have been there and might well have been an SU-25. However, I do not believe it was part of an attack on the airliner. What is far more likely is that it was attempting to use the airliner as cover, to prevent an attack against itself – a practice the eastern militias had complained about on several occasions prior to the downing of MH17. I need hardly point out that a military aircraft using a civilian airliner as cover in a war zone is criminal and dangerous.

This would be an impressive feat of piloting considering the speed and flight ceiling of a SU-25 are both much lower than that of MH17, and certainly contradicts the claims made by the Russian Union of Engineers.

To me, the most compelling factor against the popular narrative is the complete unsuitability of a single Buk launcher to engage an airliner at altitude.

I think this is actually the very reason the DNR rebels shot down MH17: poor acquisition.

To me, the most compelling factor against Russia’s narrative is the multitude of lies and multiple, contradictory conspiracy theories spread by them. I’m sure you remember Carlos and how Putin casually resurrected him when discussing MH17 with Oliver Stone. You even mentioned him when I used to comment at your old website. Well, Carlos was tracked down by RFE/RL some time last year. I’ve linked the investigation in my longer comment above. And then there was the Ukrainian mechanic. And the phantom SU-25. And so much more. Russia has simple lied so much that it is obvious why. It’s the same with the Skirpals.

Matt
Matt

Excellent rebuttal. Very mature.

Instead of admitting that I am correct, you stubbornly accuse me of being a paid troll. This happens pretty much every time I post here.

Just goes to show how the delusional respond to information that contradicts their own worldview.

Matt
Matt

Thanks for the kind words, William. I feel the same way as you do.

What is fascinating is how quickly the conspiracy theorists turn into expert logicians and raise the standard of evidence when examining claims made by the West against Russia. But when Russia makes any claim willy-nilly, the blood flow to their frontal lobes suddenly turns off and they become more gullible than a 3-year old child.

Einstein
Einstein

You don’t seem to like things being made public, do you?
For justice to be done, it must be seen to be done.

Joe
Joe

What a load of demented Bs!

Matt
Matt

Excellent rebuttal! You addressed all my points.

Mark

Malaysia is likely excluded from examining the data from the recorders because it reflected a course change and altitude adjustment which took the plane over the war zone; corrections which Ukraine first said were made because of weather and others later said were not made at all. I doubt that data will ever be seen again; real evidence which does not show what the west claims happened has a way of accidentally being destroyed, like the CIA torture tapes from Abu Ghraib.

Matt
Matt

This is a common claim by Russia, suggesting Ukraine ATC deliberately sent MH17 to a war zone. The facts are that the crew of MH17 requested a small deviation of the route due to weather. The DSB report states that just when the aircraft was back on the flightplan route, Russian ATC requested a re-route of the aircraft. Discussed more here:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/flight-mh17-never-deviated-from-flightplan-route-nor-did-it-take-other-route-than-previously/

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/more-nonsense-from-pro-russians-ukraine-atc-directed-mh17-under-missile-fire/

William HBonney
William HBonney

Got ’em.

The Russians have form for shooting down civilian airliners. The Soviet pilot who shot down KAL007 was fully aware it was an airliner, but shot it down anyway.

alaff

I hope you know that KAL007 plane flew hundreds of kilometers into Russian airspace. Actually, any country whose borders are violated by someone else’s plane (or ship) has every right to destroy it. I don’t say that it is good. These are just the rules of life. Should I remind you the case of a Russian jet fighter shot down by Turkey in 2015?

By the way, the Americans do not even need to shoot down aircraft. They simply release software that actually forces the Boing 737MAX to a disaster, killing hundreds of people.

William HBonney
William HBonney

A navigation error, especially in the pre gps era shouldn’t get you shot down. The Russians recently flew a Tu95 over Cornwall. Should that have been shot down?

Move to Moscow if you have that much sympathy for the Russians.

james
james

keep goin langley
go hav another rainwater and whiskey

different frank
different frank

Some babies were dropped on their heads but you were clearly thrown at a wall.

Rhisiart Gwilym
Rhisiart Gwilym

The Tel Aviv hasbarollocksers’ troll nom-de-jour is Bonney, apparently. Sell-by date? Tomorrow? Today, even? Judging by the vote-downs already harvested, I’d guess no more than a day or two. Watch for the next nom-de-jour to turn up. Pretty obvious, aren’t they… :O)

William HBonney
William HBonney

Judging by the vote-downs already harvested

You’ll understand if I don’t invest great respect on the kind of cretin who feels that truth is exposed in the number of ‘likes’.

Do you cry if someone votes you down? Bet you do..

Rhisiart Gwilym
Rhisiart Gwilym

Troll excreting mindsewage here under the name of Bonney, folks! Billy the Kid indeed? Hah! As if! Benny the Palestinian-murdering coward, is my guess. (Ooooo! ‘Anti-semitism’! Shockhorrorstorm! Quick: report it to the IHRA shysters!)

To destroy trolls, ignore until s/he/they wither and drop off. That’s what I shall be doing with anything posted by this entity from here on, using DR. DADE’s specific: Don’t Read. Don’t Answer Don’t Engage. For another laff at the so-obvious ineptitude of Tel Aviv Central, wait until the next crass commercial troll-farm effort appears. This one is outed. Byeeee, troll(s)! :O) :O) :O)

William HBonney
William HBonney

@Rhisiart Gwilym

When all else fails, when you have been taken beyond the limit of your intellect, and education, squeal the accusation of ‘troll’ at your nemesis… Absolutely no-one will see through that.

Master debating. Now wash your hands.

Dissidents_unit
Dissidents_unit

WHB you really are ignorant, misinformed and suffer from what I believe to be not only pathological lying but also sociopathy given the aggressive, idiotic rants you post here. Please try to do better.

Dissidents_unit
Dissidents_unit

Hi Alaff, love your analysis of this whole thing. Just a minor thing, KAL007 flew deep into Russian MILITARY airspace I believe.

Ray Raven
Ray Raven

The United Snakes of America shot down an Iranian passenger plane flying within Iranian airspace.
It’s the yanks that have the heritage.
The Korean plane was fitted with spying equipment, that’s why it ‘strayed’ well over the known Soviet military area.
You are a twat.

William HBonney
William HBonney

The Korean plane was fitted with spying equipment

A ‘fact’ pulled out of your arse, to order.

Dissidents_unit
Dissidents_unit

No WHB a fact as investigated and proven.

William HBonney
William HBonney

No WHB a fact as investigated and proven.

But strangely, not backed up by a link…

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins

No point in sending a Bellingcat Bellend like Bill Bonney a link, folks, yer’ just waisting yer’ time >>> honestly, been there done that and decided that there’s no point in feeding mercenary sociopathic trolling tendencies, that most STRANGELY never check the links first, in order comeback with something contrary, witty or intelligible to say.

Learn to search for yourself, WHB. It’s far more enriching than any mercenary material gain, as pimp for others’ goals ! 😉
Knowledge is power, Bill, not money . . .

William HBonney
William HBonney

Learn to search for yourself, WHB.

in other words, all you have is crackpot conspiracy theories you cannot back up..

I get that you hate America, and the west, what I don’t get is your idiotic idea that Iran, and Russia are any better. The truth is, they are immeasurably worse.

Dissidents_unit
Dissidents_unit

WHB Look up the Washington Post’s thorough investigation if it is still online. Sorry to disappoint you but it is fact backed up by evidence.

George Robinson
George Robinson

kal007 “strayed” over Sakhalin Island, having set off from an Alaskan airport where it had taken on more fuel than it needed for its regular journey. Its departure time was also delayed by one or two hours without any official explanation.

Moscow Exile
Moscow Exile

The Ukraine has such form as well.

Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 was a commercial flight shot down by the Ukrainian Air Force over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001 en route from Tel Aviv, Israel, to Novosibirsk, Russia.

The aircraft had on board an estimated 66 passengers and 12 crew members. Most of the passengers were Israelis visiting relatives in Russia. There were no survivors.

The crash was initially suspected by Russian officials to have been an act of terrorism, and denied American reports that it was caused by an S-200 missile. Later, the Moscow-based Interstate Aviation Committee ruled that the crash had been caused by an accidental Ukrainian S-200 missile strike during military training exercises staged off Cape Onuk in the Crimea.

Ukrainian military officials initially denied that their missile had brought down the aircraft: they reported that the S-200 had been launched seawards and had successfully self-destructed.

However, some Ukrainian officials later admitted that it was probably their military that had shot the airliner down. Ukrainian officials speculated that water interference caused the missile to veer off course. The Ukraine reportedly banned the testing of Buk, S-300 and similar missile systems for a period of 7 years following this incident.

On 20 November 2003, an ex gratia compensation agreement was signed between the governments of the Ukraine and Israel. In addition to compensation issues, the agreement stated that “The Ukraine is not legally responsible for the accident that occurred to the aeroplane and free of any obligations regarding it”. Commenting on the agreement, Gen. Oleksandr Kuzmuk, the ex-Minister of Defence who was dismissed following downing of the aircraft, told media that “the payments were a humane action, not an admission of guilt”. Later, as deputy prime minister in the government of Viktor Yanukovych, Kuzmuk denied that the Ukrainian military was responsible for the shooting-down over the Black Sea, although the Ukraine had agreed to pay damages.

The Ukraine also agreed to pay the families of each of the 38 Russian citizens killed the sum of $200,000 – the same amount agreed over each of the 40 Israelis killed.

Between 2003 and 2005, the Ukrainian government paid $15.6 million in compensation to the relatives of the victims.

In 2004, Siberian airlines filed a lawsuit against the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence and the Ukraine State Treasury at a Kiev court, seeking more than $15.3 million in compensation for the loss of the passenger jet. However, the Kiev Interregional Commercial Court of Appeal in September 2011 rejected the compensation claim from the Russian airline.

An appeal to the Kiev Economic Court of Appeals was rejected in May 2012. The ruling was further upheld, in December 2012, by the Ukraine Supreme Commercial Court.

As of January 2013 the court proceedings continued, but were disrupted again because of the Maidan protests.

wschira
wschira

Oh yes, like Iran Air 655, shot down by USS Vincennes. The captain of this ship was fully aware it was an airliner, but shot it down anyway. So also the US has form for shooting down civilian airliners.
What do you mean with that bullshit?

William HBonney
William HBonney

the crew of USS Vincennes had incorrectly identified the Airbus as an attacking F-14 Tomcat, a U.S.-made jet fighter that had been part of the Iranian Air Force inventory since the 1970s.

From the Wikipedia page on the incident. Don’t make things up, you lying b******

Ken Kenn
Ken Kenn

I have worked at an airport and I think I can tell the difference between ( and I’m using technical terms her so bear with me ) a dirty great big Airbus and a quite small Tomcat fighter plane.

Even with binoculars.

One’s big and the other one is small and if it isn’t perhaps the radar isn’t working very well?

Get a new radar system or get a new Admiral I suggest.

William HBonney
William HBonney

I have worked at an airport

Working at tie rack at Heathrow does not qualify you to comment on the relative radar signatures of an A300 and an F14 as viewed from an eighties fire control radar..

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker

Bonney, it’s an established fact that the radar signature of an A300 is at least 3 times larger than an F14. Not only that, but you are claiming that the advanced Aegis system cannot differentiate between them, it’s an idiotic statement to make.

Add to that the fact that civil airliners are beaming their identity and location via a transponder all the time, as well as communicating with ATC all the time, there really is zero case for claiming that the A300 could be confused with the F14. Zero.

William HBonney
William HBonney

Bonney, it’s an established fact that the radar signature of an A300 is at least 3 times larger than an F14.

Even taking that at face value (you provide no evidence) on a two dimensional display, three times isn’t conclusive.

The Iran Air plane wasn’t responsive to radio communications, and, one has to ask, what would be the US motivation for shooting down an airliner?

wschira
wschira

…because these topguns are very fast at the trigger?

William HBonney
William HBonney

The truth is, MH17 was a mistake, a Russian mistake, but a mistake, nonetheless. Iran Air 655 was also a mistake.

KAL007 wasn’t. The pilot of the MIG was interviewed, he reported it was an airliner, but was ordered to shoot it down anyway. Damningly, the killshot occurred after the 747 had left Soviet territory. It happened in international airspace.

Ken Kenn
Ken Kenn

Billy The Kid come down from your low horse.

I used to load aircraft and without getting even more technical an Airbus is very big and a fighter plane is much smaller.

I don’t agree with shooting any civilian aircraft down but down they come.

The reasons are not always known as is who’s fault it is.

But is it beyond the wit of you that some big aircraft might be pretending to be civilian aircraft and even the pilots can be misled by their own side and are set up a deliberate targets?

Politics is a dirty business on all round.

By the way we were never let near the Saudi weapons delivery aircraft as that was loaded on a different apron away from prying eyes.

A liitle anecdote:

My mate was a big plane spotter and went to East Germany with vanload of other spotters.

They were arrested for taking photos but once they were questioned a party was thrown for them and they were shown round the site.

There were many ‘classified ‘ planes with sheets over them.

Dissidents_unit
Dissidents_unit

William H Bonney if you are talking about the shooting down of the Korean Airliner then you have an economic way with the truth don’t you? I would refer you to sterling investigative journalist work by The Washing Post some years after the shooting down of the aircraft in which it was definitively proven that (a) the Korean Airliner was in military airspace and had been given several directions to remove itself from that airspace and (b) that it did have US Military Reconnaissance equipment on it. Go figure

mark
mark

This was mistaken for an identical US spy plane. The US had been flying spy planes, modified civilian airliners, deep into Russian air space for years. They warned America to stop doing it, but the warnings were ignored. When this plane was detected deep inside Siberia for no good reason, not responding to radio messages, they assumed it was just the Americans up to their usual tricks and shot it down. Hundreds of US aircrew have been, lost in these circumstances over the years.

It’s the Americans who have form for shooting down civilian airliners. The Iranians evened up the score over Lockerbie.

Mark

The Ukrainians have form for shooting down civilian airliners and lying about it for years. The Ukrainian Army shot down Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 enroute Novosibirsk from Tel Aviv, and claimed initially that their missile could not have done it because it went in a different direction and they saw it self-destruct. Amazingly, the Americans did not believe them!