135

Antisemitism: what does that even mean?

Philip Roddis

It pains and embarrasses me that I used to admire Dame Margaret Hodge. Her steely grillings of millionaires, in her capacity as chair of the select committee on tax avoidance, had once warmed me to her.

Since then I’d given her little thought, until she made that foul-mouthed, slanderous and – in any other context than a McCarthyesque circus whose real target is the first Labour leader in living memory to challenge ‘austerity’ – outlandish attack on Jeremy Corbyn last July.[1]

Then came Giladgate and the suspension of Labour MP Chris Williamson for defending Israeli Jewish musician – and vehement critic not only of his own state but “a particular subset of Jews” – Gilad Atzmon.

I stress that term, a particular subset of Jews. Those who call Atzmon antisemitic have rarely in my experience troubled to read him in the round, though a few offer cherry-picked quotes. I blame a confusion Atzmon is at pains to disentangle.

In The Wandering Who? he sets out three understandings of Jewishness. One refers to those born Jewish, another to followers of ethical values and spiritual disciplines encoded in the Torah. To make important generalisations about either is absurd; to make important negative generalisations a double disgrace: a moral affront in and of itself, and a moral affront in light of a thousand years of Western history culminating in Hitler.

The third understanding, however, refers to “Jews identifying as members of a superior race”. These last, says Atzmon, “are the Jews I speak of in such negative terms, and whom I urge to question their arrogant assumptions”.

If these are the words of an antisemite, call me one too.

I myself have not encountered that third category in personal life. The Jews I know and count as friends are on the left, or at any rate liberal. (Nor do any belong to Atzmon’s second category: with a few exceptions I don’t much rub shoulders with religious types, whatever brand they smoke). But this reflects the demography of my worlnon-existence the non existence of Atzmon’s third category of Jews.

In the Never Again culture of Israel, and the powerhouses of London and New York City, they do exist, and I applaud the man’s courageous, principled and costly[2] stance of calling them out.

Talk of cherry picking brings us, in this context, back to Dame Hodge.

Three nights ago she was on Newsnight to slam the reinstatement of Chris Williamson. In so doing she issued another slander, folded into an aside on the man Williamson had – with guilt by association a standard smear in Stalinist[3] McCarthyite and other forms of witchhunt – defended at no small cost.

The next day that man responded with clear proof that Hodge, probably through ignorance as much as malice, had profoundly misunderstood a statement he’d made.

Here then, is Gilad Atzmon on the subject of Margaret Hodge on the subject of Chris Williamson.

I offer it not because Hodge is important, though as the above photo shows she still commands respect within the Labour Party. I offer it because great care is called for when examining issues not intrinsically difficult but so buried by obfuscation and mendacity, so emotionally charged and in this case so tightly bound with the quite different agenda of ousting Corbyn.

On these matters, Hodge’s interventions are at best crass, ignorant and spiteful. At best – and in this she exemplifies so much that is rotten in our political classes and debased media.

You might also read Atzmon’s written response of yesterday, addressed more at Lord Falconer than Dame Hodge. After rebutting accusations of holocaust denial, he concludes:

I categorically deny being an anti-Semite. Crucially, I have never been charged or even questioned about anything I said or wrote by any law enforcement authority anywhere in the world. That Lord Falconer accuses an innocent citizen, one with an absolutely clean record, of being “guilty” and the BBC presenter does not challenge or even question Falconer’s assertion is a clear indication that Britain is now a lawless place … an authoritarian society governed by a compromised political class. Britain has become uninhabitable for intellectuals, truth tellers and peace lovers. Sad it is but no longer a surprise.

NOTES:

[1] In this context we should note three ironies. One is that this same Labour right applauded the Maidan Square coup which brought antisemites, the real kind, into the Kiev administration to embolden Ukraine’s far and thoroughly antisemitic right (as when in 2017 thousands of nationalists marched in Kiev to celebrate the birthday of Stepan Bandera.) Another, related, is that in devaluing the antisemite term – which is what you do when you call Corbyn one – you let real antisemites off the hook. A third is that like the West at large, Israel – I mention this given how many names on Tom Watson’s tweet are in Labour Friends of Israel – has again and again been willing to work with antisemites, also the real kind, in pursuit of its agendas.

[2] The nature of Israel – both as a racist state and, to borrow from a Stephen Gowans book I’ll shortly review, as a ‘beachhead for imperialism’ from which to control the middle east – is obviously relevant in more ways than one. Here I confine myself to the observation that Israeli Jewish critics of Israel, like white South African members of the ANC in the apartheid era, exemplify – whatever other traits they may demonstrate – considerable courage.

[3] I’m aware of a revival, outside the traditional circles of Western Communist Parties, of interest in defending Stalin. At one level this is understandable. Given the corruption of our media and political systems it can be tempting to assume that whomever our rulers and their servants hold up as paragons of virtue, or as monstrosity incarnate, will be the opposite. I’d go so far as to say such reasoning will more often than not deliver broadly accurate results. It’s no substitute for proper investigation, however, and I’m planning a post addressing not so much the brutality of Stalin as his criminal incompetence.

Scribbler for some sixty years, and for fifteen a photographer too, Philip Roddis began blogging in the early noughties by inflicting film reviews on an unsuspecting public. Soon he was doing the same with illustrated writings on wanderings in Asia and Africa. He writes “to help me think, and because I like to be read”, and finds photography's problem solving aspects "a break from those of writing, as well as an aid to writing and to reflective travel”.

His blog is Steel City Scribblings

Filed under: latest, UK, UK domestic politics

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Scribbler for some sixty years, and for fifteen a photographer too, Philip Roddis began blogging in the early noughties by inflicting film reviews on an unsuspecting public. Soon he was doing the same with illustrated writings on wanderings in Asia and Africa. He writes “to help me think, and because I like to be read”, and finds photography's problem solving aspects "a break from those of writing, as well as an aid to writing and to reflective travel”. His blog is Steel City Scribblings

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bevin
bevin

Just in case anyone is still reading this thread, the following is from the current MERIP:
“Palestinians in Gaza began ongoing weekly demonstrations on March 30, 2018 to reassert their right of return to their ancestral homes and lands they were forced to leave when Israel was established in 1948. The “Great March of Return,” as Palestinians have called the protest campaign, represents a vital expression of social movement organizing by Palestinian civil society, which includes human rights and legal activists, grassroots organizers, artists, journalists, BDS activists, political representatives and intellectuals.[1] One of protest organizer’s goals is to raise global awareness about the fact that approximately two-thirds of Gaza’s over 2 million residents are refugees who have been denied their internationally recognized right to return to their homes and land. They also seek to revive the nonviolent protest tradition of the first Intifada of 1987, making great efforts to prevent militarization of the protests.
“These nonviolent demonstrators are regularly met with sniper fire from Israeli soldiers along the fence that marks the 1949 armistice line separating Israel from the tiny (25 miles long and five miles wide) coastal enclave of Gaza. Marchers are fully aware of the deadly risks associated with entry into this “no-go zone,” an area unilaterally designated by Israel to be off limits to Palestinians. But the fence does not mark an internationally recognized border: Israel has never declared its national borders and still maintains complete control over Gaza—therefore it remains an occupying power under international law.

“Since the demonstrations began, at least 270 Palestinians have been killed, including 49 under the age of 18, the majority shot by Israeli snipers. An additional 31,249 have been injured—more than 500 people each week on average.[2] Despite the toll, marchers continue to demonstrate against their hopeless situation. Gaza has been abandoned by both the international community and the Palestinian Authority (PA) that governs the West Bank. Gazans suffer an unbearably poor quality of life, are surrounded on all sides by one of the world’s most sophisticated and well-equipped militaries, are targeted by bombs, snipers’ bullets, tanks and drones on a daily basis and are subjected to periodic invasions and bombing campaigns that level entire neighborhoods.

“The threat of being killed by a sniper is muted by the near-impossibility of life under siege. Siege refers to a regime of total blockade, where local sovereignty over borders, imports and exchange of people and goods is suspended by a hostile power. It encompasses the sanctions and blockade of Gaza, and also refers to the deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure as a central objective. Israel’s decade-long siege of Gaza is similar to the catastrophic sanctions regime imposed by the United States on Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War, which targeted its civilian infrastructure, and to the siege warfare utilized by the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen today, which targets food and medical infrastructure in areas under the control of its opponents. It also bears an affinity with punitive sanctions regimes recently imposed on Iran and Venezuela by the United States. Siege is war waged against civilian bodies—a form of war against the people—not the leaders. Yet while other siege regimes typically seek a defined endgame such as changing the behavior of a targeted actor, Israel’s siege of Gaza, aided and abetted by the international community, is unique in its permanence: It is the endgame……..”
https://merip.org/2019/07/israels-permanent-siege-of-gaza/

bevin
bevin

It hardly needs to be added that the majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party and much of the Shadow Cabinet actually justify the sub-Nazi treatment being meted out to Palestinians standing up for themselves.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee

According to the soi-disant inquisitors of ‘anti-semitism’ Corbyn has actually read an ‘anti-semitic book’ – wow! Shock Horror! The book in question, ‘Imperialism: A Study.’ by J.A.Hobson, was first published in 1902. Actually Corbyn, I believe, did a review some time back. Hobson himself was a frequent contributor to the Manchester Guardian, along with his namesake L.T.Hobhouse, the two being known as the ‘” Hobs.’ I can remember reading the book many years ago but can’t remember anything anti-semitic about it. In fact there was no reference to Jews or Jewish anywhere in the nearly 400 page book. There was one reference to Rothschild on page 57 – that was it. Whether that qualifies the book as being ‘anti-semitic’ seems highly dubious. Hardly in the same league as Mein Kampf or Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

But there you go, once the fanatics have decided upon the guilt of the offender the most marginal and trivial the ‘evidence’ to support their beliefs are sufficient. It really is breathtaking to witness the militant ignorance of these people.

”Ignorance is Strength.’

falcemartello

Members of the Jewish faith posit that ones religion makes one a semite. In using such logic Then all Catholics are Italian ,all Lutherans are Germanic ,all Anglicans are British and Muslims are Arabs..

THis is the oldest play in the book . Anglo-zionist by gas lighting and role reversal in victimization have successfully detracted and eliminated any debate with regards to the colonization of the middle east by creating the colonial occupied lands and called it Israel. Ones religion will not classify one to be a semite just like an Indonesian will never be considered an Arab just because it is the largest Muslim nation on the face of the earth.

The whole notion of Jewishness ,Israel and the oligarchical class have created a perception of a class of people that are above and beyond any criticism and any debate . I myself having a genetic background of being both Italian/Catholic and Serphardic ancestry have to always state this when discussing ,debating or disputing anyone with a scintilla of grey matter between their earlobes about anglo-zionist debates and rhetoric. There seems to be always a void in any intellectual honesty when disputing facts and any historical revisionism with anything to do with any matter related to anything Jewish. Lenny Brenner rarely gets a mention one of the few Ashkanazi Jews who has extensively written about zionism and Israel proper using direct quotes from famous Zionist throughout history and how foul ,fascistic and supremacist their character and souls are.

Until anglo_zionism/Zionism is purged and put into the dust bin of history like Nazism I am afraid that the real anti-semites will continue for Zionist are the anti-semites for it is a historical and scientific fact that semites are people of the Levanitne basin which are represented by the vast majority of people who identify with the Arabic language and Serphardic and Mitzrai ebraic people.

POST SCRIPTUM; Being a Gramscian disciple it is whole heartedly sad that Stalin and Soviet references are always used in such instances and never western examples .I admit the author used Mcarthy but through out are fake history in the industrial age we in the west have done worse with regards to silencing opinion and thought.
TOSTOI”HISTORY WOULD BE A WONDERFUL THING IF ONLY IT WERE TRUE”

Docius In Fundem : The mere fact is Tom Watson is now running the Labour party and his job is to tame Corbyn and and white aunt the party to become anglo-zionist friendly.

harry law
harry law

Party news website LabourList ran a poll asking whether Williamson should be readmitted to the party – 61 percent responded yes. Just 31 percent said no.
The results are significant, both because LabourList is not associated with the left of the party, and because of the number of participants – more than 10,000 readers voted.https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/labour-grassroots-want-chris-williamson-back-poll

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

“Here’s how the Israeli police treat their non-jewish citizens”

He was “of Ethiopian descent” so are you sure he was “non-jewish”?

harry law
harry law

The Labour Party complaints and disciplinary procedure which has taken so long to prepare, looked at objectively reminds me of that scene in the film ‘one eyed jacks’ staring Marlon Brando and Karl Malden.

̶K̶i̶d̶ ̶R̶i̶o̶: Chris Williamson…. I am going to get a trial, ain’t I.
̶D̶a̶d̶ ̶L̶o̶n̶g̶w̶o̶r̶t̶h̶ : Tom Watson’s group…… Yeah Kid, you’ll get a trial and then we’re going hang you.

harry law
harry law

Sorry..starring, although Tom Watson does a lot of staring when out witch hunting for Anti-Semites.

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins

For clarity:-

Q; What is a Semite ?

A: 1/a) a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs

A: 1/b) a descendant of these peoples

A: 2/ a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language
*********************************************************

Thanks Merriam Webster:-
So, clearly just another case of AshkeNazi Zionist Cultural Misappropriation of language;
& the Ashkenazi were literally infamous for stealing the culture, language, identity, property & lands of those they conquered, through creating distractions & driving division by whatever means necessary, irrespective & long long before they ever arrived in Jerusalem.

Hodge appears to worship, serve, reaffirm & enforce the historically infamous bitter Ashkenazi ‘art’ of wholly immoral self -declared supremacists, who are the genetic descendants of murderers, thieves & liars. A very cunning people, renowned for their connivance & corruption of minds & mind control.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

“So, clearly just another case of AshkeNazi Zionist Cultural Misappropriation of language”

No. The word was coined nearly 150 years ago by a German who was indeed born into a Jewish but went on to become an atheistic communist activist, amongst other things, and eventually the first significant proponent of the expulsion of all Jews from Germany because they represented an existential threat to the spirit of the German people. He formed a political party to realize that aim and the word was coined in that context.

Yes, he was born an Ashkenazi Jew, but turned out to be not your average Ashkenazi Jew.

Look before you leap.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

“…wholly immoral self -declared supremacists, who are the genetic descendants of murderers, thieves & liars. A very cunning people, renowned for their connivance & corruption of minds & mind control.”

Welcome to the entire human species, so be careful with that kind of language or you might be misunderstood and fitted right out, when, where and from what quarter you least expect.

mark
mark

That lying Zionist bitch needs to shut her fat ugly Jew mouth. She actively covered up paedophile sex abuse in Islington children’s homes for years. She demanded that Paedophile Information Exchange activists be hired as staff in children’s homes without background checks, blocked investigations, and actively smeared victims who eventually came forward as mentally disturbed. This went on for years unchecked because of her activities. Children suffered years of horrific abuse because of this lying bitch. She belongs in jail.

But yes, you guessed it – Tony Blair appointed her as CHILDREN’S MINISTER!

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins

Mark: which all begs the question, where, how and why hasn’t the ‘Buck’ ever stopped ?

Surely, those abused deserve to see a Full Final Solution, (FFS), with direct accountability, where public shaming in the MSM determines that nobody within living memory would ever consider “That lying Zionist bitch” or any other such person of such professional incompetence, for any public office, ever again. To afford her airtime is corrupt, until she has been educated in the English language, even absurd !

Also, compulsory expulsion from the Labour party would seem Labour’s only option, if any of the abused were to follow the chain of responsibility & highlight her potentially malicious premeditated efforts to dispute HER failures & legal responsibilities.

I have no idea mark, as i’d upped & left in 1990, but surely somebody can manage to nail these matters down to public record, because Hodge doesn’t even know the meaning of an

Anti-Semite and Hodge must know that Palestinians are Semites and her Ashkenazi Zionist sponsors are anti-Palestinians, therefore, they themselves are the biggest Anti-Semites leading a global movement of Apartheid & Anti-Semitism … even attempting genocide now, to steal lands with legitimate documentation belonging to SEMITES ! Palestinians !

We clearly need some constant scientific monitoring of each & every UK politician, due to the many distractive & divisive claims & behaviours of projection & transference of guilt, shrouded in smoke & mirrors and, errr… was it not your idea mark, with Gwyn calling for a final solution to the present pandemic & pandemonium from propaganda & cultural misappropriation of language …

an Anti-Sem-Pandem™ detector in tandem with,

a public awareness campaign on the true meaning of a Semite, as proposed by Joerg, seemed like a very good idea to me, if nothing else to educate people on the true original meaning of the words they employ as goy apologists, rather than echoing & amplifying the illiteracy and ignorance of a Zionist Supremacist like Hodge ?

Hodge is The Archetypical Anti-Semite and all she does is project & transfer IGNORANCE of the very meaning of the expression, with boom box amplification from the MSM & sponsorship from her GUARDIANs

Yep, that’s the real irony, thur’s not one literate journalist @theguardian – Fact
Clearly Kat Viner is also illiterate !

mark
mark

This is a paedo abuse scandal on the scale of Savile or worse that was simply swept under the carpet. There has never been any accountability for the suffering that was caused.

harry law
harry law

Rebecca Long-Bailey did her best to show support for Corbyn by admitting Corbyn had lost the trust of the Jewish community, then, when the interviewer said Corbyn should resign, she backed him up again by refusing to comment. Then she said, like some third world dictator, that she believed Mr Williamson should not be a member of the Labour Party and that she did not know how he had not already been expelled. With a disgusting colleague like her who knows nothing about due process or truth, Corbyn and Williamson don’t need enemies.
“Shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey has told Jewish Labour Movement officials in Manchester that she is aware Jeremy Corbyn has lost the trust of the community – and has begun discussions on how relations can be fixed.
During a meeting last Friday, the Labour frontbencher was told was that the best way to build bridges was for the Labour leader to resign, but she declined to comment.
But Ms Long-Bailey, who is now being tipped to succeed Mr Corbyn as Labour leader, was frank about her views on MP Chris Williamson, who was suspended again on Friday just 48 hours after he escaped possible expulsion over repeated antisemitism allegations.
The MP for Salford and Eccles told JLM national vice chair Stephane Savary and north west chair Dena Rynes that she believed Mr Williamson should not be a member of the Labour Party and that she did not know how he had not already been expelled”. https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/long-bailey-tipped-as-next-labour-leader-says-corbyn-has-lost-trust-of-jewish-community-1.485959

harry law
harry law

In order to make any comment about Israel, you have to be aware you are entering a minefield and take the necessary precautions. The IHRA was set up for this very purpose.
1/ Hire a team of top notch Lawyers to parse every word and phrase on any statement or article you publish [you will need to take out a second mortgage]
2/ submit said article to teams of English professors and/ or Professors of Linguistics.
Again very expensive but just think your life could be destroyed and you could be ostracized from society for life if you are accused of Anti-Semitism without taking those necessary steps. The aims of the IHRA are to chill speech and stifle criticism of Israel, either invest in the above or don’t criticise Israel. /S

Gezzah Potts

Harry, good advice, however I refuse to get on my knees to these zealot thugs. Screw their fraudulent screeching; in fact, they can shove it where the sun don’t shine. Some of the progressive (ish) sites here in Australia have been plagued by zionist trolls ready to pounce on even the slightest criticism of Israel, or even mildest defence of the Palestinians. One of them claimed to have dobbed me into Mossad. I was using my real name at the time. Their over the top bullying and smearing of anyone supportive of Palestinians has gone on for too long. Enough.

harry law
harry law

Some thoughts by Professor N Finkelstein on Anti-Semitism and the Labour Party…
In his opinion one of Corbyn and the Labour Party’s mistakes was a complete abandonment of the principle of freedom of speech, people have the right to say whatever they want, if I am a member of the Labour party I subscibe to the Labour Party’s political platform, that’s what makes me a member, but that does not mean you have the right to trawl my face book postings, you have the right to vet everything I say or post on Instagram, I mean that’s Romania under Ceausescu, that’s North Korea under Kim Jong-un, that’s now going to be the mandate of the Labour party, to be trawling all your thoughts and ideas to see whether you are an Anti-Semite. http://normanfinkelstein.com/2019/05/27/professor-norman-finkelstein-labouring-under-anti-semitism/

Wilmers31
Wilmers31

Jews has their property rights in East Berlin reinstated after German reunification. We were only Germans and did not get the land back or compensation. Prenzlauer Promenade 191. I was very favourably disposed towaqrds the Jews but when they were treated like royalty by the Kohl-Regime and we were second class citizens my sympathy died.

mark
mark

They will move heaven and earth to restore a painting or a piece of property to a Jew that was sold at a loss in the 1930s. But oy vey! don’t talk of any compensation for Palestinians whose country was stolen. Having extorted literally trillions in tribute from the US, Germany and Switzerland, these leeches and parasites are now trying to extort a further $300 billion from Poland.

Off Anything
Off Anything

While on the subject of censorship, it may be appropriate to mention that ifamericansknew has managed to re-upload their video on How Israel Censors the Internet.
https://youtu.be/TAzBsVzYH1o

John
John

You used to admire Margo hodge? Haha

Bernie
Bernie

Quote from an article that cites some real racism.
“Prime Minister Theresa May admitted on behalf of the British government that torture had occurred under the Blair regime and publicly apologised and compensated victims—Fatima Boudchar had actually been pregnant when she was kidnapped along with her husband for rendition…However, not only did BBC News play down these admissions but within weeks it hosted—in an act of ‘balance’?—former Labour minister Margaret Hodge alleging that the present (anti-war) Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was an anti-Semite because of his position on settler-colonial Israel.13 This was followed by a similar appearance by her colleague Frank Field.14 What is significant is that by long-established convention these former ministers shared cabinet responsibility15 for this torture and yet they were not subjected to any BBC questioning that referenced the phenomenon, let alone any commentary critical of it.”
See link
https://arena.org.au/the-unspoken-wog-slur-by-gavin-lewis/

Francis Lee
Francis Lee

Labour Friends of Israel might be interested in the little snippet published in the Daily Telegraph of in 2003.

”Jewish groups plotted to kill Bevin

By Neil Tweedie and Peter Day12:01AM BST 22 May 2003

Jewish terrorist groups plotted to assassinate Ernest Bevin, the Foreign Secretary in the post-war Labour government, as part of a bombing campaign on the British mainland inspired by the IRA.

MI5 warned Clement Attlee, the prime minister, that the Stern Gang led by a future PM of Israel Yitzkhak Shamir, and the Irgun led by another future Israeli PM, Menachim Begin, intended to establish five terrorist cells in London to mount a bombing campaign aimed at driving Britain out of Palestine. Bevin, who was opposed to the creation of the state of Israel, was a prime target.”

Omitted from this account was the murder of a senior British diplomat, Lord Moyne, in Cairo in 1944, and a number of letter bombs which were sent to members of the UK Cabinet in 1946. Fortunately these were intercepted and defused.

Any answers? Love to hear from you.

mark
mark

They also murdered Count Bernadotte, who risked his life to help thousands of Jews during the war.

BigB
BigB

Bevin; Phillip; everyone really:

I just read your comment below – which rightfully gained the applause of many. The bulk of what you say may be unimpeachably true – but it is undermined by the political naivety of the concluding paragraphs:

The [Labour] Party should call a special conference to examine its policies on Israel and to put together a comprehensive plan to reverse the crimes of the past, and present and to bring the justice and fair treatment Britain promised the League of Nations to these victims of the Empire.

And those who protest that Israel should be left alone, and its crimes condoned, its child murders welcomed and its abuse of prisoners approved, ought to be excluded from the Party on obvious grounds with the Whip being withdrawn from all those MPs who have chosen, in being ‘Friends of Israel’, to be enemies of humanity and advocates of evildoing.

“Ought to be excluded”? The Zionists run the Party – not Corbyn, and certainly not the grassroots Momentum. There will be no rapprochement. There should be, but categorically – there will not.

As you once said yourself: “Mark Regev (to be seen with Tom Watson on the fringes of last years Conference – draped in the Israeli flag (reproduced in a recent forum))” commands more respect from party members than Corbyn” …or words to that effect.

Labour is aligned with Zionism: period. Not aligned enough for some: but aligned none the less. The IHRA capitulation – for whatever reasons – was a major step toward the death of debate. Democracy has long been dead; but now we can no longer even address that directly.

Partially; because we are holding a candlelit vigil for the return to the glory days of social democracy; the military Keynesian welfare state and unionised labour …holding capital to reformation and account. No doubt hoping for an adequate redistributed recompense for our loyalty to a fading dream. If and when anyone wants to open their eyes – they will recognise the truth of what I am about to say …that dream is long dead and buried.

Buried at sea, actually – to create a tortuous analogy – because the dream was offshored in the 80s, our middle class wealth redistributed globally – but mainly to China…

We are all old enough to remember this as if it were yesterday. That world has gone: and a new globalised class system and globalised distribution system has been installed to take its place. We can dream of re-industrialisation and job creation …only to find that the global economy is already over-capacitised and over-producing …look at British Steel’s insolvency in a global context. And BS is the first of many, if you include debt deflation and entropy in the analysis.

It’s exclusion, I would propose, is the pre-dominant reason why dreams cannot be adjusted to reality.

We no longer live in that world: we cannot go back …time and entropy are one way arrows. I’m afraid where we are is not an enviable place to be. But it will only get worse from the ignorance of the stark cold realities of fact. I state again – for the debate, not to dictate …the policy set the Labour party is proposing threaten all life on earth. They are an extinction protocol. Which would be a radically exorbitant claim to make: if I could not ground it in epistemological empirical fact. Which I can, and already have done.

They: the Labout party that many on this site seem to crave for – cathexing those desires specifically on Corbyn …because, let’s face it – projecting hopes and desires on just about anyone else would expose the imagined realism of the projection.

But as I have said repeatedly: Corbyn is not a singularity. Can anyone honestly support the supposition he will remain in power, if elected? I can’t. Elect Corbyn and we will most likely have Watson and Regev – let’s not be shy calling that out, everything we say from now on is AS – as autocrats for the hidden shadow corporatocracy (that’s AS: see how it works?).

And as I have made clear below, that is not racist because they are all individual libertarian fascist shadow sovereigns …who would be libertarian fascists wherever they were born …and whatever imagined race they suppose themselves to be from. There is no reason for their racist delusions of an exclusionary race be our delusions. They ain’t excluding anyone: we are all part of the same whole of humanity.

Labour are not returning to advocate for labour …or universalism: that is a pretence that should be widely exposed. For anyone who wants to look deeply into the shadows of reality – they are fronting the very same green neoliberal Zeitgest ‘Agenda 2030’ SDG ‘technocratic’ Green New Deal sustainable growth nostrum is is now being rolled out globally …by globalists. Do I have to draw a map or make the connections for you – because I can?

Whilst everyone is burning a candle for the return of social democracy – the Labour party is shifting the other way …guided by the globalist corporatist ‘pro-business’ agenda. If you can identify the supranational corporate agenda, you can see its national parallels. Ignore it if you want, pretend that we still have national democracy and sovereignty; but that may well be to our longterm detriment.

If you think I am mad, you may just come round to my POV. I am not trying to change anyone’s POV …I am warning you. The Labour party are not your friends, nor are they who you think they are.

bevin
bevin

So, what you are saying is that it is ‘politically naive’ to urge that an obviously sensible course be followed. This is our old companion defeatism in its favourite pose as wisdom.

John Thatcher
John Thatcher

I don’t know why you take the blowhard seriously bevin,anyone who confuses the PLP,containing as it does the last rancid remnants of New Labour with the Labour party in the country really isn’t worth your time or mine,especially when he uses one hundred words where one would do!

Philip Roddis

A tad harsh, John. And on more counts than one. BigB represents for me a new and on the whole refreshing tendency of some on the Left to combine materialist analysis with an insistence on life’s spiritual – sorry, don’t have a better word right now – dimension.

But here I’ll settle on this. BigB is right in much of what he says about Labour. And it has to be said – because history shows this over and over – that the objective role of the Labour Left, regardless of the subjective intent of doubtless sincere individuals, is to sanitise the brand after each betrayal. It therefore isn’t simply a question of flushing out the “last rancid remains of New Labour” (not that that will be easy!) and BigB is quite correct on this, regardless of the fact he and I draw different tactical and strategic conclusions from broadly the same analysis.

BigB
BigB

Phillip: I think of you as a friend, and thank you for your solidarity.

The thing is though, with all due respect (to John as well): John falls into the category of those who believe – contra-factually, I would say – that there can be any “flushing out”. JC has moved into the centre, not the Blairites moving to the left as the masking media proclaim.

The rhetoric for the last two years has been: “come the Conference – we will get mandatory deselection …and rid the party of Blairites”. Two years later: still no mechanism other the same old rhetoric that could achieve the “flushing out”.

Meanwhile: Blairite neoliberal policies are “flushing in” …such as the pressure for a ‘Final Say, Final Stay’ vote to keep us in the institutionally neoliberal EU …contra democracy.

But most worryingly for me, and every one else really – though they may seem oblivious at the moment …is the ‘climate emergency’ plus ‘Labour for the Green New Deal’.

When former Blair campaign manager and fellow of the Open Society – Zack Exley – swans in, shares a platform with Clive Lewis, takes part in a closed doors meeting …then a short while later Labour are all eco-socialists, backing the green neoliberal Green New Deal (that Exley has just set up an NGO to promote) …you really do have to start to question who is calling the shots.

I’m pretty sure it is not JC …TB, maybe? Or Big Uncle George?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/22/labour-members-launch-green-new-deal-inspired-by-us-activists

BigB
BigB

BTW: John (I already addressed your concerns below). I was a member of the Labour party up until Jeremy Corbyn started collecting funds for jihadi proxies and child murderers the White Helmets. I did not resign in disgust, as every humanist should do, I was ousted. I know the perceived difference between the PLP and CLPs. It is just that in my experience, there is none.

If what it takes to remain a Labour supporter is to dismiss someone who wishes to expose their support for terrorism, imperialism, and humanitarian regime change …you really have to ask what the Labour party is about?

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak rubbish is my experience.

John
John

Jesus Christ john thatcher is delusional too! How many do called socialists in what you call the Labour Party in the Country support the white helmets? Support jo cox? Support actually existing socialism? Labour is a joke and I loved seeing all the middle classes showing off their new Labour Party membership cards when jezza still lost and talking about revolution, they made me cringe something rotten and now many have realised they haven away money for a red card with their name on it. Hate these pro labour people what short memories they have. You all still vote for and give money to a pro war pro Zionist party while declaring yourselves anti war and anti Zionist and you are gullible enough (as adults no less) to think you can vote in change, incrementally or not. Pathetic

BigB
BigB

What I am calling “politically naive” is what I have been posting for two years …impartial analysis of the stances and support that JC and the Labour party have taken make it quite clear that they will never indulge in removing the whip from pro-Zionists. ‘Ought to’ then becomes mere political posturing.

What is “defeatist” about pointing out the anti-humanitarian nature of many of Labours policies? The acceptance and normalisation of the support for NATO war criminals, their jihadi and Banderist proxies notwithstanding: there is the implicit support for the British imperialist project masked by Labour – and Corbyn’s personal – support of the celebrity and charity regime change Jo Cox Foundation …which leverages her ‘untouchable’ status to camouflage the White Helmets and regime change ‘smart-power’ application globally …not just in Syria.

But it is not just the support of the White Helmets – though that ought to be enough for anyone to abandon the Labour ‘humanitarian’ imperialism project – it is the nexus of NGOs and ‘philanthrocapitalism’ behind the Jo Cox Foundation. For the background on that: it is necessary to read Whitney Webb and Vanessa Beeley’s expose of th tangled web of the Non-Profit Industrial Complex (NPIC).

https://www.mintpressnews.com/jo-cox-assassination-white-helmets-humanitarianism-regime-change/246646/

In passing; I would just like to remind you that it was Labour who pushed the arch-imperial Magnitsky Sanctions agenda for Bill Browder …with JC in particular leading from the front …which is not something anyone can normally say.

On a more relevant forum I will detail in much greater depth: for now, if you do familiarise yourself with the philanthrocapitalist shadow players behind the Jo Cox Foundation …you will find many correlations with the ‘Green New Deal’ agenda behind Labour’s ‘climate emergency’.

One grouping stands out in particular: the nexus of Avaaz, Purpose, Change.org …and one not mentioned in connection with Jo Cox – ‘New Consensus’. For this, you will have to familiarise yourself with Cory Morninstar’s expose of the manufacturing of Greta Thunberg for consent.

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-political-economy-of-the-non-profit-industrial-complex/

Where you will find the same organisations in the NPIC tangled web. And if you can’t see which particular philanthrocapitalist is the main driver here …well.

Labour’s policies are not organic, and for the many. They are driven by the few, for the few. That is what ‘pro-business’ means. I really do hope no one is taken in by JC’s conversion to eco-warrior because he talked to a 16 year old schoolgirl. That really would be “politically naive”. The reality is darker, much darker …and the wrong kind of green. I’ve already called out this green neoliberal Zeitgeist as an extinction protocol – because it is. But here I have the advantage of having studied the main proposals: they are all energy sinks …in a time when energy conservation is what will determine our survivability as a civilised species.

We’ll survive, somehow …but not as a civilisation. It’s socialism, or barbarism …and Labour’s green neoliberal socialism is the wrong kind of green, and the wrong kind of socialism. Something I intend to expose.

It is only defeatist to vote in a pseudo-socialist government: when, under the self-deception that we have won …we only awake to find ourselves on a corporate green neoliberal via dolorosa to a climate economy that will fail us. That would be the ultimate defeat of humanity by trans-national philanthrocapital: if we concede to the behaviour change consent they are deploying …to save us. The only thing we need saving from is capitalism itself. Exposing their applied psychological agenda to avoid this ultimate failure is now my primary concern. May I suggest that it should be everybody else’s too?

Robbobbobn
Robbobbobn

“the Non-Profit Industrial Complex (NPIC)”

Too many acronyms.

It might be painful for any one author to repeatedly type a specialist acronym out in full; it is equally painful for scores of their (often consequently one time) readers to stumble over yet another occurrence of a WTFDTM and have to stumble off, perhaps never to come back, in order to REFO. If they can. SWALK.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

Sorry, that should be either ‘RO’, not ‘REFO’, right?

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

Strike the “either” (SE). Or should that be “STE”?

bevin
bevin

It seems to me, B, that most of the evidences that you offer, regarding Browder, Jo Cox etc are simply debating points- much more complex than you suggest.
And, I suspect, much less nuanced in your posts than you know them to be. Exaggeration to the point of falsification is not very spiritual. Or maybe it is.
The plain truth is that nobody is suggesting for a moment that electing a Labour majority in Parliament will lead to anything more than the need to mobilise on a permanent basis to defend it, from its enemies and, even more ominous, its false friends.
There are no consumer illusions here, or anywhere else on this thread: by far the easiest course to take is that which you outline, to look realistically at the mountainous difficulties in the way of beginning, through Parliament, to build the socialism whose foundation requires, as essential building materials, the pulverised rubble of class society and capitalism, and cut to the chase of denouncing the traitors before they have extracted the daggers from their belts. And then to retreat into one’s self and the ‘spiritual.’
I simply happen to think that the crisis facing us is a real one, not just another blip in the soaring progress of liberal capitalism but precisely as you seem to outline it.
Life itself is in danger.
Saving it will necessitate engaging the energies of the masses. And that begins by flooding, inter alia, the local Labour parties with members demanding action. Or do you know a better hole, to go to?
No doubt these bastions of Blairism/Kinnockism will resist, new members will be suspended, expelled, silenced, intimidated. Or, to put it another way, there will be casualties as the citadels are stormed. (And the names of those who fall, the proscribed and the persecuted, such as yourself, will be remembered and celebrated.)
The truth is that few objectives are more easily achieved than taking over a local Constituency, kicking out the careerist coward who has ‘represented’ it in Parliament and replacing her with a candidate, pledged, in advance to resign at the end of five years and committed to a radical raft of reforms: withdrawal from NATO, repudiating odious debt (PPP, for example), restoring and expanding the NHS, nationalising all natural monopolies and, pausing momentarily to give thanks to all those who made it politically easy for Labour to do so, weaning the economy off hydrocarbons, from fuel to fertilisers to insecticides. All it takes is a few dozen like minded people. And there is no shortage of those who are desperately eager for change, security, and rescue from the dreadful impotence of subjection to an evil media system and its impresarios a coke addled ruling class to which the next quarter’s results are about as far ahead as it dare look.
One thing anyone who was around in 1968 remembers is how fragile the citadels of the powerful are, how brittle its defences and how weak, in the moment of crisis, The Establishment-all pomp, circumstance wind and water- is when the people even begin to awake.

BigB
BigB

In principal I can agree with you. In practicality I cannot. I personally cannot rejoin the Labour party, as I have indicated before. If my situation was unique, then fine. But it is not: the Labour party is as it always was – top-down dominated by the NEC and unionised block voting. It is institutionally resiatant to change. And if it were to change to address all the issues you list – it would not be the Labour party …which is kind of my point.

Whilst the Labour party exists in its current form: it supports an imagined consensus of future prosperity. Which, due to reality being real, and socialism being imaginary …cannot occur. That is not mere rhetoric: the consensus dream of social democracy is unreal. The mere application of entropy proves this empirically beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Well, instead of desire-dreams of social democracy: I have shown the actualities of the pseudo-socialist dreamwalk – from funding the White Helmets to the ‘climate emergency’ green neoliberal psyop. And everything I have said I have provided empirical evidence for or links to …as you well know. Nothing is “imagined to the point of falsification” …except perhaps the perception it takes to avoid the truth of the matters I have raised.

Are you still a member in Canada? Did you not get the Jo Cox Memorial Fund email – a third of the proceeds of which went to the White Helmet’s? Corbyn was supporting the Foundation only last week. And below Idrees Ahmad was soliciting for funds for terrorists. He of Pulse Media an alternative “syria is a war on civilians” subverted narrative peddler …check out his work. Everything I have claimed has social relevance that extends beyond the narrow concerns of social democracy. Self-absorbed concerns that can easily be diverted from the real agendas being pushed. I suggest my own view is more grounded and real world observant. If you think there is a Labour takeover about to happen that will totally reject capitalist accumulation, financial imperialism, green imperialism, embracing ecology, rejecting extractivism, pollution, and waste, rejecting NATO, nuclear weapons and nuclear power, and charity regime change …I suggest that is politically naive in the extreme.

If we want such an authentic evolution of consciousness: it starts be recognising Labour values for the green neoliberal values they are. Or do you not notice the global governance Agenda 2030 sustainable development agenda advancing?

I will leave you with the Zeitgeist Gramsci quote:

“The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms appear.”

Moribund symptoms like the support of actually extant pseudosocialism that prevent the new from being born.

Philip Roddis

I’ve never for a moment thought you mad, BigB, and your analysis of the fix we’re in is one I share (hence my circulation, with you I think a recipient, of John Smith’s recent and excellent article on Brexit).

I do not, however, deem the Labour Party an (at best) irrelevance. Its relelentless record of capitulation notwithstanding, ditto the foolishness of assuming a ‘parliamentary road to socialism’, social democratic parties – especially the British LP, with its ties to organised labour – remain an arena whose abandonment by the Left is sectarian. That doesn’t mean all socialists must join the party, far less entertain delusions of the kind Marx (18th Brumaire) termed parliamentary cretinism. It means quite simply that in the war against capitalist barbarism, Labour remains a vital arena for winning hearts and minds.

And I must say – in the nicest possible way since you are, as I’ve said before, a serious, savvy and courteous comrade – the second half of your closing sentence presumes too much. Until just now, how on earth could you know whether Labour is or is not what I think it to be?

BigB
BigB

I was speaking more generally, by friend. As to the truth of my statement …time will tell. I can’t force the issue: but concerning Labour and the “climate emergency” and “Green New Deal” nostrum …I may well be way ahead of the curve. As a fellow admirer of Marx: surely we can agree the only “climate” solution is the ending of successive waves of capital accumulation by dispossession? While the Earth still has some possessions to pass on to the future?

Philip Roddis

Yes.

John
John

Phil you think labour has ever been on our side?! Jesus they have the biggest dove fraudsters I’ve ever seen: tony benn spoke a good game of being a man of the people while supporting internment without trial. Attlee was a good open fashioned war lover pretending he cared for the poor and that’s just two older dead members the current crop are ever so slightly more Guillotine worthy

Philip Roddis

John, your opening question begs more clarifying questions than I can possibly deal with. As I think I’ve made clear in other comments, Labour is fundamentally about negotiating rather than overthrowing capitalism, or even challenging its core dynamic. On this you and I – and BigB and bevin and many others – are surely agreed.

It seems to me you reduce a vital yet complex question – how should socialists engage (or not) with social democracy, especially the British Labour Party with its historic ties to organised labour? – to one of whether Labour is ‘on our side’. Lenin wrote much on the subject – remember the hanged man quote? – while it’s fair to say the question was one of three issues (the others being Ireland and the USSR) dividing the Left in Britain for at least two decades. Many of the most incisive thinkers on the Left – which is to say the most incisive thinkers, period – have failed to agree on it. Let’s not rush in where angels fear to tread!

Of course we can cite the endless examples of why Labour has always, will always and must always betray. That’s easy. But what do we do then? Walk away? From what is still a key arena for winning hearts and minds to the need, more pressing than ever as environmental disaster looms, to do away with production for profit?

Walk away to what? The RCP tried it and failed wretchedly. As for the her and now, IMO too many commentators here seem more interested – you can tell this not only from what they say but their needlessly harsh tones – in being gloriously right than engaging seriously with a question Lenin posed more than a century ago.

What is to be done?

lundiel
lundiel

You’ve lost it, my friend. Corbyn isn’t a Socialist, he’s not our saviour, he’s the best option available under a Capitalist system of advanced, managed democracy. We’re under no illusions, nor I think, is Corbyn, you can’t turn back 45 years of home ownership and council house give away, paid for votes. That will take generations of hardship and the tot\l destruction of the middle class.
In the meantime, Avaaz, Purpose, Change.org, Joe Cox Foundation etc are well known to us but need bringing to the attention of the larger public as do Ch4 News and all the other shysters. BUT…..Corbyn is only a politician, with a politician’s weakness for ‘liberal’ causes. That doesn’t make him automatically the enemy…..it just tells us what we already know….he’s a social democrat parliamentarian.

BigB
BigB

I’ve lost it? No, I’ve come to my senses. I refuse to endorse NATO war criminals, nuclear weapons, nuclear power, the City of London’s overfinancialised global terrorism and deliberate impoverishment of the world’s already poor, British imperialism of all forms, charity regime change fronts, the White Helmet’s and NATO’s proxy jihadi child murderers, NATOs neo-Nazi Banderist terrorists on its Eastern flank, the Drang nacht Osten and Barbarossa 2.0 Baltic occupation, Russophobia, Magnitsky Sanctions billionaire arch-imperialism, the betrayal of Julian Assange, the IHRA betrayal of the Palestinian people, the post-real Brexit betrayal, anti-democracy, and more.

Particularly, I refuse to endorse a green neoliberal climate economy – the implementation of which will ruin our long term chances of survival by squandering remaining resources on climate mitigation policies that I already know will not work. Which is what I refer to as an extinction protocol. Because it is. And it is a neoliberal corporate power play and behaviour change run through the NCIP …specifically the New Consensus – allied to Avaaz – which is fomenting AOC and Corbyn’s GND. Or do you really think Corbyn became an eco-warrior after a chat with a little girl?

So how about we wise up and reject the Parliamentarian route which has failed us? We are only defeated if we want to be. And we are more than defeated if we one-dimensionally vote for policies that are designed to enrich the already obscenely rich …at the cost of the planet and the foreclosing of the future. We do not just accept defeat for ourselves, we defeat the purpose of a future, denuding it of any real chance of prosperous continuance …which is a crime against humanity …just to sustain bourgeois socialism now.

The whole pseudo-socialist pretense of humanism, internationalism, solidarity, and universalism – character masking bounded self-absorbtion needs to be confronted. If the support of actually extant socialism means the support of all of the above (as I have adequately documented over the years) …then fuck your imagined socialism.

If I seem radical or extreme, that is what it takes now to stand up for the normalisation of ethical values. It is not a mark of great statesmanship to collect money for the White Helmets. That is incontestable, and I will take to the moral highground with it. If you support the White Helmets with funds, you are party to their war crimes. Anyone who was in the Labour party at the time got the same email as I did. It, and the subsequent Rashidin massacre, was a red line for me. Realpolitik cannot be party to child murder.

Ever since I have been continually amazed by the aversion tactics of conscienceless pseudo-socialists who posture and bluff against my standing up for universal values and common decency. I shouldn’t even have to do it. The moral outrage should be universal. But it is tolerated, and he who will not tolerate the loss of innocence is deemed to have “lost it”. That is an inversion/subversion of real values.

I ask you politely to recalibrate your values and reappraise your value judgement of me. You may or may not agree then that I found it, not lost. And question what sort of world we are co-creating where all of the above are accustomed and normative?

John
John

BigB remember you have been conversing with western First world socialists who hate actually existing socialism. They talk a good game of solidarity and what not by they just want to appear, to have the illusion, that they’re nicer more virtuos and better than everyone else BUT if you say you cant vote in socialism they show how much a socialist they truly are. Remember westerners love a good postures and stances for Facebook and Twitter but in the real world they have no idea what solidarity actually is. Actually off you want to find a true anti socialist masquerading as a socialist just find the “not real socialism” idiots

BigB
BigB

Who they actually hate is the poor: only not necessarily the UK poor. They feign concern for them, with empty talk of internationalism and universal class solidarity (the inexistance of which – from a shadow government level – would really be welcome in Venezuala, Palestine, Syria; etc) …while enacting a set of policies to punish them for being poor.

The hidden hatred in Labour’s foreign policy is never addressed by their masking fake universal rhetoric. What does the ‘pro-business’ euphemism mean? It means non-militaristic global imperialism and accumulation by dispossession from those already and institutionally impoverished by previous waves of City of London-led global usury farming.

We are never allowed to address this core issue. The focus is placed on the mild redistributive policies based on ‘progressive’ taxation and parochial fiscal policy. So we can ‘end austerity’ and ‘reform capitalism’. But it is not reformed for the global poor – because they pay for it with their lives. We withdraw the tributary lifeblood from the global community: and redistribute the blood money to ‘save the NHS’. Shameful, if you think about it …only petty-bourgeois socialists never think about it.

By challenging the imagined character mask of ersatz universalism I am obviously touching a nerve. If that causes even one person to reframe Labour’s life-blind policies – sold as ‘summum bonum’ solidarity against capitalistic excess …but actually concealing the core dehumanisation whilst becoming a benefaction from it …then good.

But pseudo-socialists live deep in their silo mentalities and self-developed narcissistic character armour: which deliberately conceals and becomes an insulation from the real world harm they cause. It is a moot point whether Labour can deliver on their campaign rhetorical fictions – especially under EU/NATO vassalship. What is certain: is that the global poor will form the real tax base of their fiscal policies …and they will be the Unpersoned victims of green imperialistic violent exploitation. You won’t read that on SKWAWKBOX!

Maggie
Maggie

I can’t fault anything you say here BigB, except that it is very clear that Jeremy Corbyn has been used… I believe that he is a good man who is clinging on hoping that he can change things by his example… but sadly he will not. The Zionist press is rallied against him. Led by their attack dog Hodge.
The isipid organisation plotting his demise are well versed and have the backing of world Zionists, as was exposed in the Aljazeera 4 part documentary of the evil ”Lobby.” What I don’t understand is no matter how much they are exposed they just keep getting stronger?
My family and I cancelled our Membership at the point when Hodge was ‘enabled’ to get away with her libel and led the false anti semitic charge against all the decent people in the labour party. As you identify, all does appear to be lost. So wouldn’t it be a good idea now, for JC and all his supporters to ‘leave’ the Zionist’s to it. And begin again as the new Socialist Party… Call the spade a spade, instead of pussy footing around them. He would then see just how much support he actually has… or hasn’t? Farage is doing it, and is going great guns. Love him or loathe him, people do appreciate being told the truth.
Shove the false accusations of antisemetism up their arses.. stop even accepting or acknowledging them.
Those who support the Zionist premise are born liars anyway, who think by absolving themselves with the Kol Nidre, that we can’t see who they are. By their deeds are they known and they are ev il incarnate.

This article in the Canary sums up the Jewish faith, and our retarded naivety in actually giving credence to anything they say. Isn’t it time to put them in their place and ignore them

>>A movement whose central claim is that it has the right in perpetuity to a part of the earth because its ancestors were given it by God 3,000 years ago, and the ”PROOF IS A ”FEW DEBATABLE VERSES IN THE BIBLE” (an anthology of unknown authorship) and can’t even be honest about itself. The essential test of truth is that it can be universalised. Two and two make four is a truth because it can be confirmed by every subjectivity. I don’t like cabbage may or may not be true. I may be lying; but it can’t be confirmed by all subjectivities. Cabbage is good for human health can. The proposition can be put to the test and the statement said to be true. Who can say whether or not God even exists, never mind whether he granted anything to a particular people thousands of years ago. Of course, freedom of belief is a fundamental human right. If I want to believe there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, I must be free to do so. However, if I tell my neighbour the fairies have given me the right to take his garden, that’s another matter.
An internationally agreed homeland for people who identify as Jewish is reasonable; but it must have borders, and it must obey international law. The Zionist project always has been to seize not only Palestine but also Transjordan. That is mocking international law.
The sly insinuation of Zionist propaganda is necessary because Zionists can’t be honest about their aims. Even with themselves. <<

John
John

NOTE FROM OFFG – this is a disinformation account, deliberately trying to muddy the debate and to give the impression this site and its readers are promoters of Nazi propaganda. We’re leaving it here as an example of the crass and unsubtle methods being employed by these goons.

Take being a so called anti semite on the chin i do. If the truth happens to be anti Semitic and you get you called an anti Semitic accept it who cares the Jews do to care about us they own the west by Ansbach large andere spread the disinformation we see at all times they are underhanded. Their are probably only about 5% of the Jewish people who are decent the stuff just aren’t. I hate to have to use old nazi propaganda but this sentence from der ewige jude is telling: Sie sind hinterlistig, feige und grausam und treten meist in großen Scharen auf. Sie stellen unter den Tieren das Element der heimtückischen, unterirdischen Zerstörung dar – nicht anders als die Juden unter den Menschen

mark
mark

That’s exactly right.
Vote for Corbyn.
What you get is Watson and Hodge.

harry law
harry law

Telling the truth, it would appear, is incompatible with Labour party membership, as an example, saying that Israel is a racist state could get you expelled, yet Israel ‘is’ a racist state, inherently so, from its ‘Jews only’ immigration policy [a basic law, 1950] to over 50 laws [in Israel proper] which discriminate against Palestinians, to the blatantly racist ‘nation state law’ [recently enacted] which gives Jews rights which are denied to other groups. Israel is a blatantly racist state, even without going into its Apartheid policies in Occupied Palestinian Territories.
The whole of the Labour Leadership is fearful of the Jewish Labour Movements [JLM] accusations, when they are not apologizing for the practically nonexistent Anti- Semitism in the party [ Jenny Formby said just 12 members out of approx 550,000 have been expelled, that is .002%] the JLM by the way are affiliated to the World Zionist Organization[WZO] which funds illegal settlement building in the West Bank [a grave war crime, Article 6, Geneva conventions 1949] since confirmed by all 15 Judges in an opinion in the ‘Wall case’ at the ICJ, https://www.icj-cij.org/en/case/131 the World Court in 2003] including the US Judge Blumenthal. The UK Labour party have a group affiliated to them who support grave war crimes.

mathias alexand
mathias alexand

Despite Hodge’s “steely grilling” the queation of why what Phillip Green did in looting pension funds is even legal was studiously avoided and conspicuous (to me ) by its absence.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro and Gilad Atzmon discuss Judaism v Jewish Identity Politics: Religion v Tribalism
_____

Atzmon: Chicken soup is not a political statement, it’s a soup.
_____

Shapiro: When we first met in a Jewish deli on Broadway, Gilad looked at the menu and asked, “What’s the most Jewish thing to eat?” I told him, “If you mean ‘what do most Jews who come here want to eat, you had better order the sushi.”
____

Robbobbobin: The first time I heard the word “kikes” actually spoken in “polite” company was in a very wealthy Jewish couple’s ultra-luxurious apartment on New York’s Middle East Side, when the hostess used it to describe, pejoratively, some penniless Jewish new immigrants huddling in slum conditions in Brooklyn.
_____
Proud to be antiFAsCemitic

Gilad
Gilad

It is a Jewish word.. this is how German Jews used to refer to the poor Ost Juden…The Jewish universe is highly hierarchical and suffocated with internal racism …

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

“It is a Jewish word.. this is how German Jews used to refer to the poor Ost Juden…”

Etymology: possibly, but as likely American, from the Yiddish kikel, or English from the name Isaac (Ike/Ikey), or…

“The Jewish universe is highly hierarchical and suffocated with internal racism”

Yes. I first heard it in less than “polite” company in the “meat markets” in Haifa and Tel Aviv.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

‘Jeremy Corbyn was called a “f****** racist and an antisemite” by one of his own Jewish MPs in an extraordinary Commons bust-up. Dame Margaret Hodge’

If the Speaker had heard it shouldn’t it have required his intervention?

She will never get over the hubristic moment that let the ‘left behind Labour wing’ back in.

Why are we still talking about religion in the 21C?

George
George

“Why are we still talking about religion in the 21C?”

Because it is still one of the best ways to divide and rule.

As for Dame Hodge’s outburst, well that was the moment she realised the truth – she had a vision of Corbyn with a little moustache doing a Seig Heil and clearly saw the concentration camps forming behind him. (Incidentally, the “Us against the Nazis” vision, divorced from all historical circumstances and endlessly repeated from now till the end of time is itself practically a new religion.)

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

“Why are we still talking about religion in the 21C?”

Because organised religions provide the most comprehensive form of archetypal cohesion necessary to conform the personal, social, political and legal elements of a population to the perceived requirements of an overarching society.