287

The Brexit Vote and Psephology of the Outer-Party

Frank Lee

Identity politics. Three Women MPs are attempting to form an emergency cabinet of women in order to reverse the Brexit vote. Please note that according to the above only women can save Britain from a fate worse than death. But how and why do the above think that they can reverse the democratically elected outcome of Brexit? Caroline Lucas, Green MP – left – has openly stated that she does not accept the outcome of the Brexit vote.

Middle-class hubris on display.

The outer-party, a category used by Orwell in 1984, would in modern terminology be called the middle-class (in British not American terms).

This is not a compact group, but a highly stratified and differentiated social formation wedged between the ruling, inner-party and the proles, and recognisable by its wearing, in Orwell’s novel, of the blue boiler suit.

The inner-party, black boiler suit, is in our own times the haute bourgeoisie; an assemblage as diffuse and variegated in many ways as the outer-party, and being composed of an informal coalition of ruling class strata including political coteries at the higher levels of state and leadership of political parties, the media, the judiciary, cultural elites (the trendsetters) and economic elites: industry, banking, finance and land ownership.

And then, of course, there are the proles.

At a rough guess, I would say that the proles represent around 60% of the population, the middle-class (petit-bourgeois) around 30% and a ruling class of a further 10%. But this latter figure can be almost infinitely sub-divided into a 10%, 5%, 1%, 0.1% ad infinitum.

The stability of the overall social structure needs as an absolute prerequisite the support of the 30% of the middle-classes. Generally speaking, this has usually been achieved through the endowment of material benefits such as income, housing, education for themselves and their children and some middle-range luxury goods including expensive holidays and travel.

But perhaps, more importantly, status is involved: the middle-class must be politically and ideologically cultivated into a sense of their superiority – inured and inducted into a worldview which corresponds to the values and priorities of the ruling class proper. But there is a slight snag here: namely, that some of the middle-class may get radical ideas into their heads and start to stir up the proles with views which are antithetical to the given social order and an affront to the ruling class. But in general, these are very minor disturbances not difficult to contain and did not constitute a problem for the elites.

However, it could and does become problematic when the system experiences strains and crises. In these situations, the middle-class is whipped into obedience and reminded in no uncertain manner that its privileges are not necessarily irrevocable and should not be taken for granted.

At the present time a new and ruthless dispensation has seemingly emerged where what was taken for granted is now being contested. The PTB have rewritten the rules and the middle-strata are required not only to obey, but also to enthusiastically endorse and practise the new credo. (See Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman: The Manufacture of Consent).

This phenomenon of enthusiastically endorsing the new credo, is vividly instanced in 1984 during the ‘two minutes hate’. During these hate sessions the elite members, who are much fewer than the outer-party mob, sit in the front of the hall totally impassive throughout with deadpan expressions on their faces, but the outer-party mob seated behind are reduced to screaming banshees as the images of the renegade leader, Emmanuel Goldstein, are flashed up on the enlarged telescreen.

Comparisons between the outer party and the Brexit Remainers come readily to mind.

The class hatred is palpable. The Guardian, New York Times readers have become militant defenders of the faith. There are apparently now correct opinions, and incorrect opinions, and woe betide anyone who transgresses the border between the two. Dangerous thoughts and utterances must be stopped.

That there is an area of ‘dangerous thoughts’ in every society is scarcely debatable. Whilst we recognise what is dangerous to think about from one country to another and from one epoch to another, on the whole the subject marked with “Danger – do not touch” are those which the society, or the controlling elements in it, believe to be so vital and hence so sacred that they will not allow toleration of their profanation by discussion.

But what is not so easily recognised is the fact that thought, even in the absence of official censorship, is disturbing, and under certain circumstances dangerous and subversive.

For thought is the catalytic agent that is capable of unsettling routines, disorganizing habits, breaking up customs, and generating scepticism. This also must be stopped!

Knowing which way the wind is blowing the middle classes are falling into line.

The liberal press – the Guardian, New York Times, Die Welt, Le Figaro, Le Monde – are now the most partisan and uncritical spokespersons of the liberal-globalist establishment. Reading any of these publications this much is self-evident.

But what is interesting is the social and political structure of the middle class. Traditionally, The Guardian and more generally the liberal press were at one time the news-sheets of record for the left.

Basically, social-democratic these publications gave their unstinting support to the social-democratic parties including the Labour party and various good causes around the world which were vaguely anti-imperialist.

Today, however, the ‘left’ MSM is a staunch defender of the liberal-globalist order having basically gone over to the other side. I would argue that this was a top-down Damascene conversion rather than a bottom-up mutiny.

This was amply illustrated by the Brexit vote. In England London and the Southeast and one or two other cities Oxford/Cambridge voted to Remain whilst of the rest of the country voted Leave. The middle-class, private sector and public sector, teachers, solicitors, small potatoes businesspersons, PR executives, and so forth, went ballistic. Disaster! How could this have happened!

This is perhaps because the middle-class always has a choice, and it chose its advantages, albeit in a mediated fashion. The middle class is now inherently conservative, and the Brexit vote provided ample evidence of this. The gloves were off, and a threatened middle class promptly went into class war overdrive. What is new, however, is the sight of the liberal-left middle-class joining with the traditional conservative-right middle-class in defence of their interests, imagined or real.

This ability to adapt themselves and attach themselves to classes to which they originally did not belong – in this instance the haute bourgeoisie – was possible for bourgeois intellectuals because they could adapt themselves to any viewpoint and because they and they alone were in a position to choose their class affiliation whilst those who were immediately bound by class affiliation were only in rare exceptionable to transcend the limitations of their class outlook.

Returning to Orwell and the outer-party, we can pinpoint two or possibly three types of the Remainer typology.

  1. Parsons: The absolute dolt who will believe quite unselfconsciously any claptrap which the party will impart to him through the propaganda machine.
  2. Syme: The party intellectual is also able to imbibe the most abject ideological and political theories but with some difficulty including the use of doublethink and doubletalk.
  3. Winston Smith: Who doesn’t believe a word of it but simply lacks the courage of his convictions.

This seems to be an unstable social/political coalition brought about by the independent variable of economic and political upheaval at a more fundamental level. Where it will end is a matter of guesswork, but we can be sure of a really quite vicious backlash from these people as their sense of worth and entitlement begins to erode. This is just the beginning of a very nasty period bordering on open warfare. Time to choose sides, I think.

Political discussion possesses a character fundamentally different from academic discussion. It seeks not only to be in the right but also to demolish the basis of its opponents social and intellectual existence. Political discussion, therefore, penetrates more profoundly into the existential foundation of thinking than the kind of discussion which thinks only in terms of a few selected ‘’points of view’’ and considers only the ‘’theoretical relevance’’ of an argument. Political conflict, since it is from the very beginning a rationalised form of the struggle for social predominance, attacks the social status of the opponent, his public prestige and his self-confidence.”
Karl Mannheim – Ideology and Utopia – p.34)

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Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Aug 28, 2019 11:58 AM

An unelected PM seeking to shut down parliament – perhaps a ‘no-deal’ Brexit is a lot closer than we thought in Britains exciting new democracy?

Anyway, I’m sure Boris and Trump are not the sort to let their own grubby ambitions subvert future trades deal in order to benefit a tiny cohort of swivel-eyed libertarians rather than communities ravaged by a decade of austerity.

On the other hand perhaps we should have taken a bit more notice of Russel Brand’s warning?

Tony
Tony
Aug 28, 2019 11:20 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

Farage puts his opinions to voters in elections. Russell Brand is a professional comedian who doesn’t put his opinions to the electorate.

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour
Aug 29, 2019 8:12 AM
Reply to  Tony

Brand is also a very wealthy person, who has no idea what ordinary working people have to go through. When was the last time he was “made redundant” (got rid of) to make way for a cheaper model. Both my wife and I have gone through this gut wrenching process, where you are out of work, possibly looking at losing your house, facing the humiliating procedure which is the jobcentre.
The champagne socialists, the Islington crowd are totally detached from reality.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 4:38 PM

Following the opposition meeting under Corbyn this morning here is how the narrative massaging is going right now. On LBC the Mair show leads with Farages speech! ( he is also on their daily 6 o clock slot following – tell me that is not stuffing the Fartage down peoples throats?). This after opening with the false headline that opposition parties had met and agreed to REJECT brexit. When what they actually agreed and signed upto is reject a HARD brexit. Finally they turn to Corbyn … err no words just a quick report. And now the first vox pop caller – its a Brexit party canvasser from the NE having a kick at Labour! Surprise. Mair giving her plenty of time… shameless! This is the spin being deployed across the msm and on various boards btl. I think that todays ratchetting of Corbyns letter from couple weeks ago is… Read more »

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 28, 2019 3:16 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Ha yes they’ve gone running to the Queen!

Tony
Tony
Aug 29, 2019 10:46 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

As opposed to going running to the Speaker (as Greave did), and the Speaker changed standard parliamentary procedure in order to allow remain sabotage, using the bullshit excuse that parliament had to evolve. As though that wasn’t a GENUINE constitutional outrage.

Adam Dubock
Adam Dubock
Aug 26, 2019 2:29 PM

While I think I understand the points made, I still don’t see how a no-deal Brexit with a Tory government will do anything other than make the lives of people living in working class areas suffering decline from decades of Neo-Liberalism even worse. The power structures stay the same, this isn’t a victory for the poor, it’s just different shit. Happy to be enlightened though.

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 26, 2019 3:16 PM
Reply to  Adam Dubock

Very true Adam. However, at least we hope that we can change our government and economic policy, something we had no choice about inside the EU. No matter how many people say “we can change it from within”. The likelihood of 28 nations agreeing to do so at the same time is negligible.

Mr A Dubock
Mr A Dubock
Aug 26, 2019 8:48 PM
Reply to  lundiel

Ok, but this is only going to be better if we get a Socialist government, which is a big if. It might never happen.

William
William
Aug 27, 2019 7:39 AM
Reply to  Mr A Dubock

Not only is it highly unlikely that we’ll ever elect a truly socialist government given the weight of propaganda against that occurring, it’s also highly unlikely that they’d be allowed to practice socialism even if they were elected (pompeo’s pronouncement?) the USA and the neoliberals have a vested interest in ensuring socialism doesn’t take root or be successful anywhere in the world. We should learn to live and work within the confines of the capitalist system, globalisation is very real and isn’t going to go away, competition from all corners of the world is growing through technology and development of erstwhile “backward” economies. The neoliberals will not give up control without a fight and it’s a certainty that any whiff of true socialism will be quickly sniffed out, just like it has been in Venezuela etc. The eu is of course also a neoliberal construct, but with 28 or more… Read more »

harry stotle
harry stotle
Aug 27, 2019 10:26 AM
Reply to  William

It is said US corporations own 50% of the world – Britain was more or less acquired after WWII and US control has grown ever since. Maggie & Ronnie, Tony& Dubya and now the grotesque pairing of de Pfeffel and Trump. The EU may be an undemocratic institution but since Britain developed into ‘Airstrip 1’ democracy has only existed in a theoretical form due to internal and external factors that suppress the interests of median income families. Those in the bottom third of the income distribution scale are not even treated with basic human civilities nowadays (despised by the faux left, centrists and right wing). More people need to wake up to the fact that democracy has been supplanted by corporatocracy – and this form of control is highly resistant to the transient influence of politicians, not least because few politicians attain high office without first being owned by corporate… Read more »

William
William
Aug 27, 2019 12:16 PM
Reply to  harry stotle

Correct. ..and the corporates will only respond to pressure if enough people are represented by their government. 500million can be more persuasive than 60 million even if only by virtue of their purchasing power. Democratic deficit is obviously a factor in either scenario but at least with a veto and a left of centre government we could exert at least some pressure. ..as poodles of the USA and a right wing out of control tory government we’re screwed.

mathias alexand
mathias alexand
Sep 2, 2019 4:01 PM
Reply to  William

Venezuela is still standing.

Ken Kenn
Ken Kenn
Aug 27, 2019 11:33 PM
Reply to  Adam Dubock

Adam I am utterly lost as to how Lexiters can think that a No Deal can lead to Sunny Uplands etc etc. with Johnson and his mad Cabinet in charge? Why George and his mates thought they would be consulted over Brexit plans is beyond me. This is a Tory internal machination and the left should have had nothing to do with it. But – we are where we are as Blair used to say. So’ where do we go from here as they say? It appears that Corbyn has deferred to the idea that he is not going to be the interim leader – therefore another leader is required to head up the Anti No deal charge. OK. But it still leaves the matter of removing the government/PM who are hell bent on implementing No Deal. Do ‘ they ‘ ( meaning the anti no dealers ) want to… Read more »

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 12:08 PM

Having read through to the bottom of the comments there is a certain jarring note that needs addressing in my view. That of why we gate crashed into the EC knowing it was planning to become the EU? I’ll just state the facts (i did on another article but it belongs here). If it seems too long to read hete is my conclusion. It is wrong to believe that we were tricked by pesky europeans or others to entrap us in the EU. We went in with our eyes wide open. —— So, lets start with a legal JUDGEMENT from back in the day: “It does appear that if this country should go into the Common Market and sign the Treaty of Rome, it means that we will have taken a step which is irreversible. The sovereignty of these islands will thenceforward be limited. It will not be ours alone… Read more »

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 26, 2019 4:57 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Interesting theory. We knew exactly what we were voting for the first time around but we didn’t have a clue the second time.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 5:56 AM
Reply to  lundiel

FACT not THEORY.

It seems that we were voting to leave because exactly what was being planned for the EU in 1970 when we joined and promised to help deliver – happened – and when out veto couldn’t be used anymore , we set about leaving with maximum damage.

Hypocrisy and treachery by the Tories, upon the EU and the citizens of the UK.

PROVEN.

They can not be allowed to succeed.

William
William
Aug 27, 2019 7:59 AM
Reply to  lundiel

I suspect most people didn’t have a clue the first time either, just back then they weren’t able to ‘google’ what’s the eu…the day after the vote

Mucho
Mucho
Aug 26, 2019 11:40 AM

Boris Johnson is not British. He was born in New York City. He is an American, plain and simple, and had to change his passport to British only, in order to be able to do this job. Does anyone here trust a US born, lying piece of slime like Bojo, to sign off a “beautiful” post Brexit trade deal with the US? I fucking don’t. His loyalties are not 100% with the UK. We are being told the deal is all but done. Hello, is there anybody there? Is anybody paying attention, this is quite important. Lol. Brits will soon long for the good old days of the EU. I imagine a certain other country, with massive inroads into the Britsh political system will also be salivating at the opportunities Brexit will provide. Nation of fools. Take back control? Hahaha, yeah right, dream on suckers. Brexit, setup by Cameron, closed… Read more »

Mucho
Mucho
Aug 26, 2019 11:46 AM
Reply to  Mucho

Just throwing this out there, so people can understand the kind of democracy the West truly has. The ratio he quotes is interesting., Hmmm, what does that 51-49 ratio remind me of? I can’t quite remember, but I’m sure we had a big vote in this country with the exact result he quotes.
American Election Hacker Testifies

Mucho
Mucho
Aug 26, 2019 12:16 PM
Reply to  Mucho

Why have you deleted my links and replaced them with clips I have never posted?

Mucho
Mucho
Aug 26, 2019 12:21 PM
Reply to  Mucho

Please can you correct those links, I did not post those videos

Sophie - Admin1
Admin
Sophie - Admin1
Aug 26, 2019 12:39 PM
Reply to  Mucho

Your comment is exactly as you submitted it. If the links are not what you intended the mistake is yours. If you add the proper links below we can replace them for you.

milosevic
milosevic
Aug 27, 2019 7:54 AM

There is a persistent problem on this website wherein specifically Youtube embeds are replaced with a different video which was previously linked. I have observed this several times; there is a bug somewhere in your website code.

flaxgirl
flaxgirl
Aug 27, 2019 9:15 AM
Reply to  milosevic

My experience is that whatever I do in YouTube will affect the link I see embedded in the comment. I see the video entitled American Election Hacker Testifies as named by Mucho on his post. You need to remember that it is the YouTube app that is embedded along with the link and whatever you do in YouTube yourself will affect what is played when you click. Perhaps by closing and re-opening your browser and then click you will see that the correct link is displayed but I think the correct link is displayed.

Sophie - Admin1
Admin
Sophie - Admin1
Aug 27, 2019 9:49 AM
Reply to  milosevic

what flaxgirl says is broadly correct. The right video is embedded but individual readers may see a different vid, depending on what is stored in their browser cookies. If you clear cache and cookies that should fix the problem for you.

It’s a client side issue not a server side issue.

flaxgirl
flaxgirl
Aug 27, 2019 9:17 AM
Reply to  Mucho
DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 1:37 PM
Reply to  Mucho

And here is the other shoe dropping

“So many things have been said about Brexit since the British public decided in a 2016 referendum to leave the world’s biggest trading block. But will this unprecedented move be good for the Israelis? The short answer is ‘yes’.” …

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5102325,00.html?&tb_cb=1

Please read before any kneejerk response.

Mucho
Mucho
Aug 27, 2019 4:46 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Zionist interests are ruling at the moment. The US government is all but captured. Ultra Zionist Brit PM David Cameron announced Brexit, ultra Zionist Brit PM Bojo is about to close the deal. Bojo was born in the USA. The silence surrounding these vital issues is deafening, and very telling.

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 26, 2019 9:41 AM

Any attempt to impose a no-deal Brexit challenges the very legitimacy of government. Britain does not, of course, have a written constitution; but, as John Locke, the English philosopher and ‘father of liberalism’ pointed out: if a government acts in ways that are contrary to the public good, by misplacing the trust placed in it, it renders itself illegitimate and ‘dissolves’ itself.

That is, it ceases to exercise legitimate political power and the people have, not only the right, but the duty, to overthrow it.

kevin morris
kevin morris
Aug 26, 2019 6:44 PM
Reply to  Peugeot

Disagree since nobody is attempting to impose a no deal Brexit. However, the ‘deal’ negotiated under the watch of Theresa May was actually a surrender of UK interests to Europe. It is worth remembering what Tony Benn said in the run up to the 1975 referendum. ‘If I don’t like a government in Britain, I can help vote it out. I cannot do that with the (then) Common Market. There is a real risk that once in, we will not be allowed to leave again.’ His clearsightedness has been demonstrated to be correct and Europe really does wish to make our leaving Europe as unpleasant as possible. Since Europe negotiates without good faith because they fear our departure, and with the last ‘deal’ in mind, the only possible negotiating stance is to show a willingness to leave on October 32st, whatever Europe’s response. Europe is undemocratic and an economic basket… Read more »

Arby
Arby
Aug 26, 2019 9:25 PM
Reply to  kevin morris

The Duran (on Bitchute) has some good videos discussing this. Trump, it seems, is happy to encourage Boris to do a hard Brexit, which Boris will do because his personal political fortunes depend on his not angering his base going forward. His Party also needs this Brexit to happen, although I have zero faith in any of the UK Parties. Trump wants to do a free trade deal with the UK – really, because he doesn’t know better. The US economy, contrary to what Alex Jones says, is not in good shape. It will never be. The US ruling class takes its marching orders from corporations who destroy all but themselves and their highly paid top officers, as Dean Baker makes clear. He discusses the US economy with someone (I forget who) who brought up this recent jokey announcement by a group of US CEOs that they would no longer… Read more »

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 10:28 PM
Reply to  kevin morris

Bull shit.

Bobo just said that he won’t allow parliament to stop no deal!

Are you purposely ignoring my post that PROVES we went into Europe knowing EXACTLY what it wanted to develop into?

We barged in to disrupt that. We are storming out to disrupt it.

De Gaul has been proved right in knowing perfidious Albion would never change its spots and shouldn’t have ever been allowed in.

All these idiots who are thinking that the EU will ‘fold’ or would be diatraught at a poxy 40 billion divorce bill being witheld or they are desperate to keep us in are DELUDED.

It seems that a few trolls have been deployed on this backwater to control the narrative! I suppose that means Off-G’s profileus going up.

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour
Aug 27, 2019 7:41 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

DunGroanin, you seem to be getting worse than the posters on the Guardian, calling anyone you disagree with a “troll”.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 10:51 AM
Reply to  andyoldlabour

KevinM stated that ‘nobody is trying to impose a no deal brexit’. I disputed that and the PM and his cabinet are saying that is what they will insist on at the end of the extended A50. The rest of the controlled opposition chicken littles who pretend they don’t want a hard brexit are now going to enable that by ignoring a VONC – a general election – which is the ONLY way to stop that hard brexit when A50 expires. The trolls are out – how many new posters have you counted here? That is because Dom and his gang of bad boys and girls know it is their last chance to deliver the hard brexit they always planned. Just because I call that spad a spad, you call me paranoid and ignore every fact that i am posting. That’s how the specialist 77 tupes also worked on the… Read more »

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour
Aug 27, 2019 1:53 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

WTH is a “specialist 77 tupe”.
If the EU try to refuse every reasonable Brexit idea – points based immigration, no hard border in Ireland, relatively easy transit to and from Europe, then it will be the EU which is backing the UK into a “No deal Brexit corner”.
I have no wish to see a no deal Brexit, but I am realistic enough to know, that the EU will sorely miss our financial contribution to the club.
Germany, France and the UK are the three top contributors to the EU budget.
In 2017 the UK were the second highest net contributor after Germany.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48256318

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 2:27 PM
Reply to  andyoldlabour

More BS.
Tell us what the annual EU budget is and tell us what the net UK contribution is?

The EU has negotiated the WA – that is the divorce bill – it is legally enforceable. And the political declaration on the FUTURE negotiations and accepted the legal guarantee offered by May on the gfa… ALL based on Mays unilateral red lines!

A disorderly brexit happens at the expiry of A50 if there is no ratified WA.

It is us who are not ratifying that agreement because it was set up to fail and thus deliver the Hard Brexit which was always the plan A of the brexiteers.

You appear to be shilling for them.

Tupe should be type.

And if you don’t know what the 77th is look it up.

Tony
Tony
Aug 28, 2019 11:23 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Yes, the EU has never shown the slightest bit of interest in getting 39 billion (originally a lot more) out of us *groan*. Now, where’s that cup of coffee?

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 29, 2019 9:05 AM
Reply to  Tony

Coffee before bedtime? Can’t help in getting a restorative sleep.
No wonder you are confused.

In any divorce, pleasant or unpleasant, there is a difference between a divorce bill and future relations.

That divorce bill is agreed or if the couple can’t , a judge decides how much. Either way it is legally binding. Running away or hiding does not stop that liability. Which if not paid leads to further penalties, asset forfeiture, arrest and even prison.

Our divorce from the EU has legal consequence. The monies WILL be paid through the courts.

Tony
Tony
Aug 29, 2019 10:20 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Lawyers for our government have quantified 9 billion legally owed. The rest of the 39 billion was just a sweetener, to encourage future co-operation. I can’t find specifics of said lawyers’ calculations, but I know they won’t include our investment in the ECB, of which it’s policy to leave intact. But I strongly suspect the figure doesn’t take account of our share of the real estate, which, if cashed in, would mean that the EU legally owed us money.

Arby
Arby
Aug 27, 2019 1:19 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Well, Just following discussion by folks who know more than me (the Duran again), it seems that Merkel has handed over power over Europe to Macron who is in the process of destroying the European Union. Now, I don’t know enough about it all to agree or disagree. Going forward, I’ll no doubt learn a lot more about it, since I scour the alternative media (focussing on progressive sites, but, it seems, finding Conservative ones useful as well) for articles to present to (the very few) readers of my blog.

Europe, by the way, has it’s army, as far as I know. BSNEWS looks into all of that.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 2:34 PM
Reply to  Arby

‘Merkel has handed over power over Europe to Macron ‘

Where do you get this bs from?

Mutti slapped down the would be new Jupiter king of Europe, the bankers appointee on the French, when she survived the organised alt-right kippery putsch against her at the last election. She sidelined him on Syria and told him to fuck off on nordstream2 and further kiboshed his plans for a joint US EU naval escapade in the Gulf.

You need better sources.

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 27, 2019 4:27 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

You haven’t stopped groaning and your comments are increasingly deranged.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 4:34 PM
Reply to  lundiel

Kindly argue against my statements of fact – you aren’t in this thread link as far as i can see – maybe you are responding to a comment i made to someone else…?

Groanin btw refers to the putrid organ.

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 27, 2019 7:55 AM
Reply to  kevin morris

How you can complain about the E.U . being undemocratic when we’ve just had an Oaf occupying the PMs office elected by 0.0002 of the population is beyond me, that’s without taking in to account unelected lords, civil servants, the head of state,etc and then claim thieving the remaining side said was untrue is beyond belief, what happened to the £35.000.000. for the NHS, we can have our cake and eat it, we hold all the cards, they need us more than we need them, the German car manufacturers will be banging on Merkels door the easiest trade deal in the history of mankind, we can have all the benefits of EU membership without any responsibilities, you really can’ t make it up , and now as we predicted, it’s all the E.Us fault, I think your being taken for a ride and you’re able to see it, it’s purely… Read more »

Sophie - Admin1
Admin
Sophie - Admin1
Aug 27, 2019 9:31 AM
Reply to  Peugeot

Clarify please. Are you suggesting the fact the UK is corrupt and undemocratic makes it illegitimate to point out the EU is also?

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 27, 2019 9:42 AM

No, it’s just a case of the pot calling the kettle black, we could maybe get our own house in order before criticising others

Arby
Arby
Aug 25, 2019 10:40 PM

“The middle class is now inherently conservative, and the Brexit vote provided ample evidence of this.” Even Noam Chomsky has said that political labels are difficult. There’s much complexity and confusion. For example, as Chomsky notes in a number of places, Richard Nixon was the last liberal president, even though he was a Republican. Liberals (in the sense of US political discourse) today are moderate Republicans, according to Chomsky. Anyway, All politics – due to the power of the resource-rich Right – moves rightward (toward fascism). Peter Lavelle, Alex Christoforou (The Duran), James O’Keefe, Dave Cullen (on Bitchute) are all Conservatives. I find them to be fairly right about most things. I don’t know exactly how each would self-identify, although I have heard Peter self-identify as Conservative. My own way of understanding that is that there are Conservatives who are like the Conservatives of old. They weren’t all that bad.… Read more »

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 9:33 AM
Reply to  Arby

As you may know but fail to make clear here – there never was a right and left.
There was and is, only RICH and POOR.

From the biblical Kings and Slaves to the American Rebellion 0f the 1770’s to every revolutionary momment in history across every nation – it has always been about the aristocrats against their poorest.

The left- right conceit is just a sleight of hand by the richest to insulate themselves from the never ending class war.

Arby
Arby
Aug 26, 2019 8:53 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

We are using words to communicate. What do you want to call the Right? If you don’t know what Right means, that’s your problem. Give it some thought, I would advise. If we stop using labels, because we think that they’re wrong, then we will only end up replacing them with other labels. Should we stop calling ‘socialists’ socialists? Okay. What do you want to call them? That there are manipulators and liars out there who sow confusion is another subject. I’m not going to stop being intelligible just because there are those who sow confusion and those who are confused. The political Right (and I always capitalize the ‘r’ when referring to the political Right because it makes things clear) is comprised of people who wish for their class, only, to have the benefits of collective society-building and collective problem-solving. The political Left on the other hands wants socialism… Read more »

George
George
Aug 26, 2019 9:56 PM
Reply to  Arby

Au contraire, Orwellian substitutions are going on all the time – especially in a capitalist consumer society whose underlying strategy is “Tell them what they want to hear!” e.g. I can’t think of a more variable term than “liberal”. It used to be a swear word for the Left (who viewed it as referring to a covert Right winger) but has now leaped across to the opposite meaning cf. “Left /liberal”.

Or how about the word “Conservative”? Most who call themselves this subscribe to unrestrained capitalism i.e. the most anti-conservative force of all. Speaking of which, when Thatcher was once asked what she considered her greatest achievement, she said, “Tony Blair” – recognising full well that “New Labour” was pretty much identical to the “Conservative Party” – who aren’t conservative at all!

Don’t listen to what they say. Watch what they do.

Arby
Arby
Aug 26, 2019 10:33 PM
Reply to  George

Good points. I’m not clear about the ‘au contrarie’ part. Cheers.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 11:04 AM
Reply to  Arby

The problem with the left-right spectrum is that it us created by the top for protection from the bottom. The 2 dimensional pyramid is obscured and turned into a 1 dimensional line.

That obfuscation regularly runs into nonsensical paradigms. For example when they try and fit fascism into that left- right line and find that there are left as well as right fascists! When clearly in a 2 dimensional top- bottom pyramid it would be easy to see where that fascist layer begins and reaches to the top.

The sooner we all recognise that in sticking to the paradigms handed down to us by the top (aristo/elite/super rich) to keep us from punching up at them – the sooner we’ll stop the absurd Three Stooges face slapping as they ( the top) divide us (the rest of us).

Arby
Arby
Aug 27, 2019 1:09 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Well, leftwing fascism makes zero sense to me. I just wouldn’t use the phrase. Why do you say the ‘terms’ Left and ‘Right’ were handed down to us? I have a vague recollection of their origin, but I don’t think there was anything more involved than distinguishing the parliamentarians who sat on one side of the room from those, with different views, who sat opposite. But, you have your views. And I have mine. We’ll just leave it at that I guess.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 1:28 PM
Reply to  Arby

Yeah leave it Arby – now that you suddenly decide that you don’t even know of the bs left-right crap that you were teaching people all this time.

You of course can look up Whigs and Torys. Or even Roundheads and Cavaliers. And the other incarnations of the two party system.
In the US the GOP were initially more ‘liberal’ than the redneck southern Democrats.

Yeah pretend that the great top-bottom. Ancient class divide is not the real and only substantive difference. While you collaborate in the equally age old divide and rule strategy using everything from race, religion to the modetn sexual identity politics and the latest weaponisation of children and the groovy XR crap with the trillions to be made from the GND.

Yup. Leave it at that. Keep your word.

Arby
Arby
Aug 26, 2019 9:10 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

I’ve replied multiple times to this. Those replies keep disappearing. This site is being meddled with, it seems.

Sophie - Admin1
Admin
Sophie - Admin1
Aug 26, 2019 9:15 PM
Reply to  Arby

I’ve checked the spam folder. Nothing from you in there. It could be a local issue for you.

Arby
Arby
Aug 26, 2019 10:33 PM

Thanks. These days, anything’s possible.

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 26, 2019 9:43 AM
Reply to  Arby

Doesn’t Chomsky believe the ‘official’ explanation of 9/11?

Arby
Arby
Aug 26, 2019 9:04 PM
Reply to  Peugeot

I believe he does, but don’t quote me on that. I think it’s more like he wants evidence for whatever position you look at. I began to see a new and degraded Chomsky with this turn. I watched a video discussion he had with Michael Albert about 9/11 and found his tone to be arrogant and nasty. His biases were showing. (He has what looks to me like a love/hate relationship to the corporate media. He’s very good at critiquing the offerings of this or that compliant journo, but I suspect that his disdain for new alt/progressive media and the internet has left him open to manipulation. And if he’s relying on research assistants who aren’t progressive, but perhaps pretending to be… Add to that ego. If he doesn’t think other journos and authors, like Vanessa Beeley and Eva Bartlett and Stephen Gowans have anything to teach him, How will… Read more »

Sophie - Admin1
Admin
Sophie - Admin1
Aug 26, 2019 10:10 PM
Reply to  Peugeot

That reply is right here. I think your computer is reloading cached versions of the page which is why you can’t see it. In the circs I’m going to delete this comment in a short while to keep the thread as uncluttered as possible.

Arby
Arby
Aug 26, 2019 10:36 PM

For sure. Good to know. That will slow me down, but now that I see that it’s a thing, perhaps I can deal with it and not make so much noise. I happen to believe in noise-making though. 😉

milosevic
milosevic
Aug 27, 2019 8:56 AM
Reply to  Peugeot

Arby
Arby
Aug 27, 2019 1:23 PM
Reply to  milosevic

Chomsky has lost the plot.

Arby
Arby
Aug 25, 2019 10:29 PM

“For thought is the catalytic agent that is capable of unsettling routines, disorganizing habits, breaking up customs, and generating scepticism.” Indeed. The Right is very, very aware of that. Those who own, rule and ruin the world fear political innovators. Where do political innovators – threats to the status quo – come from? They come from among that group of regular people (educated formally or not) who ‘think’ and ‘pay attention’. Counterrevolution is the elite’s way of managing that ever-present threat.

Arby
Arby
Aug 25, 2019 10:25 PM

“…the ‘left’ MSM…” Thank you Frank for employing single quotation marks there.

“Brain Rot And Darkness” – https://arrby.wordpress.com/2019/08/25/brain-rot-and-darkness/

Arby
Arby
Aug 25, 2019 10:13 PM

“There are apparently now correct opinions, and incorrect opinions, and woe betide anyone who transgresses the border between the two.” That is very correct. An opinion is an opinion and all should be treated as equal. One can be wrong about an opinion, but that is another subject. Our expressed opinions – and none should be disallowed – form the arena of discussions and debates, where some opinions will survive in the gladitorial polemics and some won’t. But no one should be banned from the contest. And the ‘failure’ of opinions in that polemicist’s arena should have no consequences for the right of people to hold their opinions.

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 25, 2019 7:00 PM

Why I despise Liberals and consider them to be worse than Conservatives. They more than anyone are guilty of imposing, across all sectors, (but especially in care, employment and increasingly, social justice, public-owned industries) the practice of “performance evaluation and targets”. This horrific practice of judging care providers and employment coaches by their ”performance” is worse than anything I can imagine. What kind of regime employs people who are judged by their ability to hit ever-increasing targets? This is an American sales import that has been applied across many industries but is the go-to measure of “success” in publically funded employment, especially the NHS, DWP and care providers. It has been increasing since Thatcher but went full-on during the Conservative-Liberal coalition. It has made workers slaves, chasing targets that rise all the time while trapped by their mortgages/rent and is epitomised by the EUs competition law which claims to stop… Read more »

Arby
Arby
Aug 25, 2019 10:19 PM
Reply to  lundiel

“What kind of regime employs people who are judged by their ability to hit ever-increasing targets?” Interestingly, that’s looked at in William Greider’s “One World, Ready Or Not.” Japanese industrialists were brutal. They constantly squeeze ever bit of productivity out of their employees, forcing the bulk to perform at the same level as the most physically able among them do. I believe that scientific management, originating in the US and also known as Taylorism, promotes to bosses the same approach to managing labor.

Frederick Taylor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_management

The working class is the enemy – to our fascist overlords.

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 26, 2019 5:07 PM
Reply to  Arby

Interesting link. Reminds me of the hated time-and-motion studies and piece work in the factories of my youth. Performance management is the same thing renamed.

Arby
Arby
Aug 26, 2019 8:45 PM
Reply to  lundiel

Acknowledged.

Arby
Arby
Aug 26, 2019 8:55 PM
Reply to  lundiel

I did respond to this. I’ve notice that responding from my email (aol, what a fake-out!) is a waste of time. Either that, or everything’s being held up here. I have no way of knowing. I just wanted to acknowledge, and thank you for, your comment.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 4:25 PM

“Traditionally, The Guardian and more generally the liberal press were at one time the news-sheets of record for the left.” Traditionally and factually The Guardian has never been, nor has its core operators ever viewed it as being, left of centre; rather, it was founded as an organ serving the interests of 19th century cotton mill owners and traders against those of their workers and it has remained a centre-right publication ever since. Far more apt than Orwell in accounting for its political position is Charles Perrault and his pre-industrial tale of an enterprising wolf who eats a kindly old grandmother then dresses up in her clothes into order to lure her innocent and gastronomically more desirable young granddaughter into an identical culinary fate. That the Guardian has been able to maintain such a position of editorial duplicity for over 150 years, thus helping the bourgeousie to render politically impotent… Read more »

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Aug 25, 2019 2:56 PM

I recall that in 1979, 1983, 1987 and 1992. I voted Labour in all four general elections and was on the losing side each time. I thought that the Thatcher ascendancy was going to be a disaster for the UK. And so it turned out. So what did I do? Nothing much, just went back to work the next day and carried on with my life, hoping in due course the political environment would change for the better. Fat chance! we ended up with Blair instead. The Talleyrand to Mrs T’s Danton. I supposed I should have joined the movement for another election, but that never occurred me, that was outside the rules of the game. But apparently things have changed. Now elections,and referenda can be contested. On what criteria is it can this annulment take place? Well I support if there was any meddling in the count, or other… Read more »

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 26, 2019 12:11 AM
Reply to  Francis Lee

There are certainly problems with the E, but I’d much rather be part of that club than to be handed over to the voracious US neoliberals that will devour this country. Better be careful for what you wish for.

Bal S
Bal S
Aug 26, 2019 3:52 AM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

This country has been slowly devoured by successive Tory/NewLab/LibDem neoliberals for the last 40 years….with the full support of it’s neoliberal EUSA pimp.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Aug 28, 2019 12:11 AM
Reply to  Bal S

And it’s hard to think of a much more slavishly pro-USA crowd of people than the New Labour elites.

Junaid
Junaid
Aug 25, 2019 2:24 PM

The head of the White House, Donald Trump, said that it is quite possible to invite Russian President Vladimir Putin. “Starting point”: Trump may call Putin to the G7 summit

https://www.writenaregiven.com/2019/08/starting-point-trump-may-call-putin-to-the-g7-summit.html

J D
J D
Aug 25, 2019 2:12 PM

I voted Leave because I thought it was important that we are able to elect the people who govern us and make our laws… and the EU didn’t allow that. I voted Leave because I want a socialist economy….and the EU doesn’t allow that. I voted Leave because I experienced the devastating impact on the availability of work and the conditions of work that occurred because of the elites ability to freely move capital and cheap labour around the continent. I voted Leave because I thought the EU was a neoliberal dictatorship which is relentlessly impoverishing the European working class.
Apparently though, my social superiors have informed me that I didn’t know what I was voting for. I was lied to. I was hoodwinked. I am stupid and I am a bigot and and racist. I shouldn’t have been allowed to vote because I voted wrong.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Aug 25, 2019 3:52 PM
Reply to  J D

Well said.
I pointed out that the last time that the Eastern periphery was denuded of it’s labour force to satisfy the needs of the industrialised nations was under the Third Reich – for which I had my posting abilities permanently suspended.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Aug 25, 2019 3:53 PM

… at the Graun, natch.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 4:34 PM
Reply to  J D

“I shouldn’t have been allowed to vote because I voted wrong.”

Wrongly, pleb. Says it all.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 25, 2019 7:07 PM
Reply to  J D

What exact direct personal examples can you give of how the EU did to you – personally.

J D
J D
Aug 25, 2019 8:26 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

After working for a furniture removal firm for five years I was promised the firm was going to put me through lorry driver training and give me a permanent contract. I came to work one morning to find they had given the role to a lovely bloke who’d recently arrived from Slovakia who had an HGV licence. He was employed for way less than they had promised me. I also used to work for a marquee firm who employed myself and 30 or 40 other blokes from my home town from March until October each year. I bumped into my former foreman in 2008 who told me he had resigned because they had replaced the entire workforce with men from Poland. If I had the time I could give dozens of examples of how work disappeared and wages and working conditions deteriorated if you were a manual worker in the… Read more »

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Aug 26, 2019 12:00 AM
Reply to  J D

Yes – we deplorables don’t blame the immigrants for coming here – their own homekands have been lain waste by neo-liberalism and I’m sure almost all would have preferred to stay home had there been decent, well paid jobs for them to do there.
We instead blame the politicians for holding the floodgates open at the behest of high finance and big business.
For that we are labelled gammons.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 26, 2019 12:18 AM

Yes – we deplorables don’t blame the immigrants for coming here – their own homekands have been lain waste by neo-liberalism

The neoliberal can be blamed for lots of things, but the Eastern European migrants cam here because the countries were wasted by decades of Soviet communism, not neoliberalism.

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 26, 2019 3:33 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

They weren’t allowed to join untill they satisfied stringent neoliberal requirements that saw highly educated people scrabbling for jobs as care assistants.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 9:07 AM

But you don’t blame the politicians – you blame our membership of the EU.
( please see my respons to JD above for a fuller response)

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Aug 26, 2019 5:05 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

I blame our politicians for slavishly implementing EU directives (often with their own business-friendly embellishments) and when the people complain, their cowardliness when they say ‘don’t blame, it’s the EU).
I blame the EU for creating the framework, the politicians for enacting it.
The poor people are merely acting as best they can within the system.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 9:04 AM
Reply to  J D

Thanks for that JD. I can understand that you personally have some cause to feel that your itenerant and largely unskilled work and lifestyle choices were somewhat curtailed by the availability of a worker who had trained and qualified and was in search of using their hard earned skill set. The villain in that example is ? A) the qualified worker looking for a job? B) the boss who employs a qualified worker that he needs and takes advantage of that person by paying less then he otherwise should to make more profits for himself? C) You for not having got the training yourself quickly enough and had a contract with your employer? D) Some one or something else? If I were in your position and my cushy lifestyle choice was undermined then I too would feel agrieved. Then if somebody told me they knew who’s fault it was and… Read more »

William
William
Aug 26, 2019 10:21 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Keeping us at each other’s throats ensures there’s no mobs carrying torches trundling up the path to the country pile

Tony
Tony
Aug 26, 2019 7:52 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

I’m currently working my way through the second series of Mindhunter. They finally got around to interviewing Charlie Manson. His argument, put so persuasively, and not a little bit aggressively, was that he never killed anybody. He merely liberated peoples’ minds. What they did going forward was nothing to do with him. This is your argument to a ‘t’: it’s not the system, it’s the peoples’ misinterpretation of it.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 29, 2019 1:09 AM
Reply to  J D

“After working for a furniture removal firm for five years I was promised the firm was going to put me through lorry driver training and give me a permanent contract.” Long before Britain made its big time European Disinformation blunder in the mid 1970s, I was involved with a cheerful small company whose workers were all hired on a handshake and trust for jobs that then constituted their sole employment for years, even decades (except for those with direct involvement in specific client contracts who were required to sign various related short term contracts strictly limited to the duration of the associated client contracts). One day the main (and, short of a major change of circumstances, pretty well indispensible) shop floor worker said to me, “I hear the boss is planning to sell the company.” “Who told you that?” I asked. “He did,” was the reply. “Well, sort of. He’s… Read more »

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 26, 2019 12:14 AM
Reply to  J D

You voted leave because you want a socialist economy….but instead will get a neoliberal corporate tax haven where public services will be completely hollowed out. A lot of people were very naive.

Bal S
Bal S
Aug 26, 2019 4:17 AM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Isn’t the City of London a corporate tax haven already? Haven’t public services like gas, water, electricity, nuclear power, railways, probation services etc already been hollowed out and privatised? Hasn’t this been going on for the last 40 years with the full blessing and support of of the EU?

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 9:12 AM
Reply to  Bal S

‘Full blessing.. of the EU?’

NO – it hasn’t. It’s gone on because of our VETO on the EU trying to stop it.

We have at every turn disrupted the evolution of the EU. Including using our veto.

When our veto could no longer be used – we huffed and puffed and threatened to pull the whole house down or even LEAVE.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Aug 28, 2019 12:17 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Please give an example of when the EU tried to stop our public services being hollowed out and privatised.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 28, 2019 10:04 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

Eh? Another newbie? Crawled out? Or sent into action? Maybe we have engageg but I don’t recall you being in this conversation or another with me. Non the less – WELCOME to my little troll abbatoir!

So to business-

What has the EU got to do with the Tory and NuLabInc neolib con artistes privatisation programs?

Nothing.

Who sold what already belonged to the people back to them? The EU didn’t hustle ‘Sid’ to become a petty shareholder or an ex affordable social housing occupier.

Much of many EU countries state assets are still owned by their governments- they didn’t sell off their family silver so that US hedge funds and foreign pension funds control their utilities and infrastructure. In fact they have a stake in OUR utilities – who do you think is builiding our latest Nuclear plant?

The bs moronic squizzle pointing doesn’t work round here.

Sophie - Admin1
Admin
Sophie - Admin1
Aug 28, 2019 10:30 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Don’t be pointlessly abusive DG. It’s a poor welcome, and Mike Ellwood is asking a perfectly reasonable question.

In fact please avoid troll-spotting as much as possible. Unless the troll is making it blindingly obvious.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 28, 2019 11:03 AM

You are right Admin and am grateful that you ARE watching – I normally wait for any such behaviour to become obvious – it’s just that as i point out below, I had 3 replies from a new poster. Which i admit got my goat a bit 🐐

Hopefully i made a considered reply. I won’t engage with them any further on this thread.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 29, 2019 12:16 AM

“Mike Ellwood is asking a perfectly reasonable question.” So here: https://www.guengl.eu/issues/publications/study-the-consequences-of-eu-liberalisation-directives-on-public-service/ is a perfectly reasonable answer, dated January 2019, from a grouping on the EU parliamentary left. The hollowing out of ;ublic services somehow related to the European Union is blatantly obvious across Europe and, furthermore, it’s easily seen by those on the sharp end as a clear attack on the working class poor and the plain old ever-with-us-poor poor. But it’s not a plot by the Commissioners with a Directive entitled “Hollow Out your Public Services or Else You’ll All be Greeks by Breakfast”, it’s a result of an interplay between the irremediably fascistic (in the Mussolini sense of the corporate state) basis of the Union, with its latter-day litany of neocon-favouring of “liberalisation” directives, the oligarchical commercial logic of corporate entities whether state owned or not, and the political will of member governments whenever right wing (or, in… Read more »

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour
Aug 27, 2019 7:48 AM
Reply to  J D

J D,
Many people do not seem to realise that it is the EU forcing individual governments to impose austerity measures on their people, and we shouldn’t forget that austerity measures always hurt the poorest in society.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Aug 28, 2019 12:18 AM
Reply to  andyoldlabour

Greece of course being the obvious example.

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour
Aug 25, 2019 2:11 PM

I think it is worth pointing out, that the South East voted to leave, the following constituencies voted to leave the EU – Dartford, Gravesham, Medway, Maidstone, Swale, Shepway, Tonbridge and Malling, Canterbury, Dover, Ashford and Thanet.
In Kent, only Tunbridge Wells voted to stay in the EU.
Down here in the South East we also had some of the highest turnouts in the EU referendum.
I totally agree with the point about London, and would add Brighton and Hove, pus Scotalnd to the list.
Northern Ireland was far closer, and Wales voted to leave.
It was probably the most democratic vote we have ever had.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/results-and-turnout-eu-referendum

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 9:17 AM
Reply to  andyoldlabour

Not democratic in our parliamentry tradition
Not democratic in the sense that one vote out of millions could determine the whole outcome.
Not democratic in that illegal funds and sophisticated secret social media manipulation was used in specific localities to deliver the brexit vote.

You conveniently leave out the NE, Yorkshire, Midlands ‘hot spots’ which were also convinced to vote for brexit. WHY?

Tony
Tony
Aug 26, 2019 12:30 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Sophisticated secret social media manipulation that nobody has managed to prove had any effect whatsoever on voting patterns. And the company that provided this manipulation was so good at what they did, they went bankrupt!

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 2:41 PM
Reply to  Tony

Many voted leave out of a mischievous sense and many others because they were targeted via their FB as Cummings proudly crowed:

“In the official 10 week campaign we served about one billion targeted digital adverts, mostly via Facebook and strongly weighted to the period around postal voting and the last 10 days of the campaign…”

They are proud of their work! And now they have stormed into No 10 en masse to deliver the hard brexit they ‘won’ against parliamentry democracy.

People don’t like to admit they were tricked – Mark Twain said something about that.

Tony
Tony
Aug 26, 2019 4:18 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Whatever that weirdo Cummings (and others) claimed/gloated over, there is not a shred of evidence that the Facebook campaign worked. And, like I said, the company that created it went out of business. Remainers need to stop their bullshit about manipulation. And they need to stop the course, childish insults. And they need to address the real reason why they lost the argument and lost the referendum: which is that Britain’s masses have been left behind by the globalist economic policies of the EU, and Britain’s masses understand this. And this problem ain’t going away through the onslaught of arrogant haranguing by their ‘betters’.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 10:33 PM
Reply to  Tony

Cummings and his crew are in No 10. You have no objection.

Tony
Tony
Aug 27, 2019 7:43 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

That’s it. Change the discussion in typical remainer style.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 11:12 AM
Reply to  Tony

When did i change it?
Why did you ignore my first 2 points?

Tony
Tony
Aug 28, 2019 11:30 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

We were discussing social media manipulation. You tried to conflate my rebuttal of it’s efficacy with the current government. I’ve no idea why you think my rebuttal of your nonsense about Facebook spam winning mass votes connects me to a loon like Dominic Cummings.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 29, 2019 9:21 AM
Reply to  Tony

So you are claiming that FB ads have no effect?

Gee i wonder why their business model hasn’t collapsed and doesn’t earn them billions and billions …?

Why haven’t FB revealed what user data was made available to the Leave campaign?

Or how many users?

Or where?

And what specific adverts?

Are you doing a Clegg here?

Tony
Tony
Aug 29, 2019 10:31 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Yes, I am claiming exactly that wrt Facebook political advertising. It’s just spam. Almost every real person who posts on Facebook posts there for social reasons. Politics is almost verboten. Post a link to anything political and, unless it’s hilarious, it will get almost zero ‘likes’. That is, unless you are one of the tiny minority who use Facebook to share such spam. In which case, your only friends will be a like-minded clique. Using Facebook to sell politics is like advertising escorts on Mumsnet. That’s why Cambridge Analytica went bump.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Aug 26, 2019 5:14 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Well, I’m not on Facebook (many are not) and I’d decided how I would vote long before the campaign. It was an accumulation of distaste that began with Maastricht, increased with the Eastern Bloc accessions, worsened after Lisbon and turned to disgust after the GFC with the treatment meted out Greece, Cyprus, Ireland, Spain and Portugal.
Thankfully, or perhaps scarily for the holy Remainers, this deplorable was able to see for himself and think for himself. I suspect the other 17 million had far more agency in their voting choice than the Remainiacs could possibly imagine.

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour
Aug 26, 2019 12:41 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

This was only undemocratic in the eyes of people who voted to remain.
I ignored the other regions because the author of this piece lumped the South East in with London, when the voting patterns were clearly different.
Are these dark arts – “sophisticated secret social media manipulation” – a powerful phrase indeed, are they as strong as a Petronas charm in Harry Potter?
What you are saying is basically like blaming Russia for all the ills of the World.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 2:42 PM
Reply to  andyoldlabour

As I quote above Cummings admits to the manipulation.

Tony
Tony
Aug 26, 2019 4:20 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

But does he, or anyone else, have any proof that it worked?

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 26, 2019 7:46 PM
Reply to  Tony

Of course it worked. They targeted people who had already indicated their intentions. It’s possible a few waverers were persuaded just as the official phamplet almost certainly did the same for Remain. But to attempt to morally nullify the vote and attribute it to Cummins as some kind of evil genius andis desperate nonsense.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 10:38 PM
Reply to  lundiel

It was more insidiuos that is why the votes are concentrated.
It is about using influencers who spread the personalised propaganda they receive online into their locality.

Like i say – sophisticated. And they kept a full diary.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 10:34 PM
Reply to  Tony

Yes he knows it worked. FB knows it worked.

Neither have turned up to a Parliamentary select committee to deny it !

Tony
Tony
Aug 27, 2019 9:34 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

A parliamentary select committee run by an expenses fraudster who sees Russians coming out of the walls everywhere.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 11:17 AM
Reply to  Tony

It is a select committee with multiple members who also get to ask as many questions as they like – that is how our parliamentry democracy works. The fact that there are some controlled arseholes on these committees- usually by compramat of our own DS does not invalidate the testimonies they elicit.

Cummings has refused as has Zuckerberg and others – why are they allowed to get away with it?

Why are you defending their actions?

Tony
Tony
Aug 27, 2019 9:40 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

In order to ascertain if a marketing campaign has worked, there have to be clear results in the case of goods for sale, or extensive follow-up research in the case of a political campaign. No such research has taken place. And it won’t be taking place in the future because the company has gone bust. Remainers really are desperate, clinging onto this nonsense. And they continue to stick their fingers in their ears as to the real reason why they lost the debate and the vote.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 11:20 AM
Reply to  Tony

They will not turn up and answer these questions in parliament- in effect pleading ‘the fifth’.

Which company are you talking of as having gone bust?

FB certainly hasn’t.

Tony
Tony
Aug 28, 2019 11:38 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Cambridge Analytica. And Collins (who heads the committee) is clearly an intelligence asset.

As an aside, I couldn’t help noticing that RT had some VERY anti BoJo articles today, totally against proroguing parliament and forcing brexit through. How bizarre! RT is an instrument of Putin, is it not? And Putin’s propaganda machine and it’s social media bots helped win the brexit vote, did they not?

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 29, 2019 9:13 AM
Reply to  Tony

CA was instantly reborn as another company – i believe there are new rules on churning.

I didn’t claim that Cummings worked via CA.

I have never claimed that Putin had anything to do with brexit or wanted it.

I doubt that RT was ever pushing brexit.

I don’t quite understand why you even mentioned RT?

Tony
Tony
Aug 29, 2019 10:38 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Companies setting up again after they failed the last time is the modus operandi of business fraudsters.

Talk to Damian Collins (or his Guardianista oppo Carole Cadwalladr) about Putin’s interference in the referendum. They will bore you all day long with their conspiracy theories.

You missed my point: the same people that claim Putin manipulated the referendum claim that RT is a Putin tool. These people are so inept: they just can’t get their lies straight.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 29, 2019 9:24 AM
Reply to  Tony

Yes the localities that were targeted voted for Leave at a higher rate then elswhere.

The proof is witheld by FB from the parliamentry committee and Cummings refused to testify as well.

Tony
Tony
Aug 30, 2019 8:27 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Sorry, if this pro0f has been witheld, how do you know it’s proof?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Aug 31, 2019 2:09 AM
Reply to  Tony

I keep saying it is by confession of the perpetrator that we are convinced.

I keep saying that by the refusal of the perpetrators to testify is further proof.

It is a fucking duck! Are you blind? Or doing a Nelson?

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Aug 28, 2019 12:39 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

“Manipulation” – Nonsense. It was just a more sophisticated version of what political campaigners have always done. If you’ve ever taken part in a traditional political campaign….leafleting and knocking on doors, etc, you will know that you target the people you know who might vote for you, and studiously ignore those you are pretty sure will vote the other way. As I quote above Cummings admits to the manipulation. I recently watched a Youtube video of DC speaking about the referendum campaign and how it was planned and how it worked. I was actually surprised at how “normal” he came across. Certainly not the evil genius figure that has been painted. He certainly didn’t “admit” to any “manipulation”. Just described how they had taken a chance and dumped most of their budget into the last 10 days or so of the campaign. But more interestingly for this discussion, he (correctly… Read more »

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Aug 28, 2019 12:21 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Not democratic in our parliamentry tradition

You mean that parliamentary tradition in which a party can lose the popular vote, but win the overall election?

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 28, 2019 10:35 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

Not one but three replies to me Mr ‘Mike Ellwood’ – I am honoured! Don’t know whether I should play whakkamole with you – my statements of facts stand. You have not disputed any, from why we barged into an EC that didn’t want us, to crap about losing sovereignty, which was well understood back in the 60’s and confirmed by our highest law lord in the early 70’s – why not Mike Ellwood? There is a lot more on the ‘Dr Strangelove’ Cummings demented superbrain self important narcism. Do you want me to dig it out? His personal philosophy? His heroes? Hmm? Or is that how you intend to divert the thread? Even as they (& you) make a last ditch full body fling for the line to snatch the grand prize of a HARD BREXIT to save the ancient vampire City – using today the most arcane of… Read more »

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 25, 2019 1:44 PM

Why it is deemed as being democratic, it’s a known fact it was corrupt, money being spent over and above what is allowed, people being told it will be the easiest deal in human history, £35,000.000.for the NHS which was denied literally four hours after the declaration, when asked about that the moron fromage said ” Oh, that was a mistake,” and that was the end of that and four point lead is not a mandate to take this country out of the biggest trading block on the planet, on to WHO trading terms, the only country that trades on WTO terms alone, if it’s that good how come?

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 4:52 PM
Reply to  Peugeot

“Why it is deemed as being democratic, it’s a known fact it was corrupt, …”

Hurrah for incorruptible parliamentary democracy. How a narrow four points crept out of the woodworm holes in ancient British ballot boxes and upset the projections of the world’s greatest free subjugations of nations east of Hanging Chad is one of the enduring mysteries of Political Science as she was known and practised by bodies realpolitik since Ghengis Khan brought the advantages of free trade to all who remained alive by the time he had finished.

LeRuscino
LeRuscino
Aug 26, 2019 10:01 AM
Reply to  Peugeot

£35 Million ? I think you’ve lost the plot somewhere and don’t have a solid grasp of English or knowledge of the loss in Court of the Remainers on the subject……

AND

“WHO” Trading Terms ? It’s WTO on which the UK already does the majority of it’s trade.

Only 12% of UK GDP comes from trade with the EU …………

If you are dyslexic then I apologise for being so harsh.

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 26, 2019 4:08 PM
Reply to  LeRuscino

You are a moron

LeRuscino
LeRuscino
Aug 28, 2019 5:41 AM
Reply to  Peugeot

Says a Remainer who thought WHO (World Health Organisation) was WTO (World Trade Organisation) !

I rest my case …….

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 28, 2019 8:11 AM
Reply to  LeRuscino

Well that was an obvious mistake, I’m sorry i fit’s confusing

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 25, 2019 12:28 PM

Another ringer from Frank! Thanks …

Bootlyboob
Bootlyboob
Aug 25, 2019 10:44 AM

Anyone watched the new doco on Netflix called American Factory? Such a good show, despite being from a company owned by a mass murderer.

Lots of interesting and mostly depressing things occur but I was particularly amused when the US manager went from trenchant anti-unionist to all of sudden giving a fuck about the ‘voice’ of the workers only after he realised he was expendable by the Chinese owners and had he arse hauled out of there when they replaced the management with Chinese.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 25, 2019 10:03 AM

There is also a three wimen group at the SNP Scottish government- which has been trying to stuff Alex Salmond and Scottish independence.

Steve Bell skewered Swinson last week in his ‘if’ strip brilliantly.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 4:59 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

I like the above hot times three’s “Shove it up The People” badges.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 9:20 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

I had to try and focus in on that badge – March for a Peoples Vote??
They want a peoples vote but not if Corbyn delivers it???

different frank
different frank
Aug 25, 2019 9:55 AM
Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 6:03 PM

“Legatum: the Brexiteers’ favourite think tank. Who is behind them?”

Good Lord! A politically partial (or not, as the ca$e may be) tubfull of itinerant thunkers shilling (1/20th of a pound) for some financially motivated billionaire$! Now there’s a conundrumical outlier on the hyper$cape if ever we saw one. Someone should notify the power$ that ought to be a$ $oon a$ po$$ible. If not $ooner.

LeRuscino
LeRuscino
Aug 25, 2019 9:01 AM

Greens just became disgusting – end of !

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour
Aug 25, 2019 2:14 PM
Reply to  LeRuscino

I couldn’t agree more and the Liberal Democrats are now in that position as well. Labour is unfortunately going down that route, trying to harvest “woke” votes, which has seen thousands of party members leave, mostly women.

Bal S
Bal S
Aug 26, 2019 4:57 AM
Reply to  andyoldlabour

The LibDumbs showed their true colours hours after the 2010 General Election when Cleggy decided to bail out the Etonian pig cock sucker. As for Jeremy, he never did get to grip with the one big stumbling block that would repeatedly undermine his leadership, openly collaborate with the enemy and attempt to relentlessly stab him in the back…….70%+ of those neoliberal Blairites sitting behind him in the Commons.

LeRuscino
LeRuscino
Aug 26, 2019 9:56 AM
Reply to  Bal S

And Clegg now the Facebook Censorship Commissar working to destroy free speech meaning anyone he & his Democracy hating Leftie Nazi brigade disagree with !

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 9:24 AM
Reply to  LeRuscino

I lost all support for Greens when I saw that Jonathan Porritt relinquish his hair shirt and go back to his aristocratic ways.

It also became clear that the German and Scandy greens were actually used for dividing socialist demands of the people by dividing them and their votes.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Aug 26, 2019 5:19 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

…and thus maintaining the centre-right’s grip on power.
One has to wonder just how many of these groups are fed and watered by or on behalf of The Ruling Class (e.g. Greens, SWP, UKIP, BNP etc, etc).
P.S.

different frank
different frank
Aug 25, 2019 7:50 AM

Brexit is a right wing coup.

William
William
Aug 25, 2019 8:33 AM

It’s the etonians fulfilling their birthright and destiny. To rule unchained and without restrictions. Some on here see brexit as swapping one set of neoliberals for another lot which is probably quite true, but the new lot are unremitting bastards without any compassion whatsoever. The lowest rung of working class who appear to think they have nothing to lose, might have a rude awakening when their first medical bill drops on the doormat once the nhs sell off is complete

William
William
Aug 25, 2019 9:49 AM
Reply to  William

Those downvoting…care to tell us why they disagree? Previously the cons would always need an excuse to sell off the nhs, brexit has provided the ideal opportunity….we need a deal and unfortunately the only one’s offering are USA. The nhs is the attached strings that we’ll just have to ‘suck up’

different frank
different frank
Aug 25, 2019 9:54 AM
Reply to  William
Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 25, 2019 12:35 PM
Reply to  William

Why do Remainers assume that the EU is against privatization? The old Lisbon Treaty that Brussels did so much to promote even forbids the re-nationalization of sectors that have already been privatized. Yet it seems to be an article of faith that the NHS could never, ever be privatized under the EU. Why is that?

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 25, 2019 1:27 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

It’s all propaganda. The NHS can only be replaced with an insurance scheme if we agree to it. The NHS already has a great deal of privatisation and this is made up of British, American and European healthcare/affiliated corporates. No one is going to sit down with Trump and carve up the NHS, they could only change the rules for future privatisation and as the best-earning bits have already been privatised, there won’t be much on offer.
I’d be more worried about EU neoliberal rules on competition applying to healthcare in the future than the idea of Trump greedily looking to acquire the NHS……the EU is a clear danger whereas Trump is propaganda by extremist remainers.

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 25, 2019 1:51 PM
Reply to  lundiel

If we agree to it? ha ha ha just what say in the matter do WE have, none, if one man hairy arse ,decides to let the NHS go it’s gone, what do you see happening riots on the streets?, they will just make sure Liverpool is playing Manchester United and nobody will give a shit

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Aug 25, 2019 3:13 PM
Reply to  Peugeot

Exactly – the naivety is astounding.

And don’t think corporations will give it back as easily as we let the NHS go.

Don’t forget the tories have already sold off everything that is not nailed down.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 25, 2019 7:01 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

And tell me: did the EU stop that?

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Aug 25, 2019 2:07 PM
Reply to  lundiel

What the public need to understand is that the NHS is slowly being prized out of their hands – Brexit will be the catalyst to full blown privatisation while claiming beforehand that the NHS is ‘safe in our hands’.

Once it has gone it has gone.

Discussion in forums like the Guardian will not be about bringing it back because debate will have moved on to ways of avoiding fiancial ruin by sniffing out affordable insurance policies.

So long as we have Johnson and Hancock at this end, and Trump at the other the NHS is sure to be the main course at the post-Brexit neoliberal feast.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 6:22 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle
Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 25, 2019 1:47 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

I think you may have got that the wrong way around, it’s the leavers who believe that, wrongly , the likes of Corbyn, that’s why he’s against the EU.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 6:07 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

“Why is that?”

Duh. What wuz the question? Duh.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Aug 25, 2019 10:29 AM

That is a proposition that cannot be entirely dismissed. Let’s start with a simple premise – the architects of Brexit (ie right wing ultras in the conservative party) did not stage it because of their love of democracy, or because their political philospophy is shaped by ‘the will of the people’- nothing could be further from the truth in either case I suspect arch-libertarians like JRM and other rabid tories like Patel, Raab, McVey and Hunt are all familiar with ‘shock doctrine’ – conditions of rapid upheavel that create sufficient uncertainty for drastic change to be foisted on the wider population. And if it wasn’t clear on 23rd June 2016, it should be as clear as day as now that Brexit provides Britain’s right wing establishment with a glorious opportunity to cement the excesses of colonialism: the kind of relationship once inflicted on foreign subjects but one that now defines… Read more »

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 25, 2019 2:00 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

Well put why can they not see it, the will of the people, they’re not so interested in the ‘will of the people when they are pleading not to shut schools , hospitals, libraries, bus routes, rail fares, they are treating us fools and getting away with it , we have all the cards. we can have a custard slice as well as eating it, they need us more than we need them, Merkel will be knocking on our doors screaming for a deal, £35,000.000 for the NHS none of which came true, so in effect, those that voted leave have got what we told them they were going to get, nothing whilst the idiots three red lines were put into place, but now as everyone knew, the EU will be getting blamed for it.

Tony
Tony
Aug 25, 2019 5:30 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

“Millions of Britains are impoverished”

This has happened while we have been members of the EU, and it has been a core policy of the EU’s relationship with big business. It could not possibly have happened in the way that it did if we were not in the EU, and not in the free market.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 11:01 AM
Reply to  Tony

AUSTERITY was politically imposed and had NOTHING to do with the EU accept to put the blame on our membership of it.

Tony
Tony
Aug 26, 2019 2:01 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Austerity is official EU policy. Member states have to adhere to austerity monetary and economic policy in order to stay within EU rules. Remember what happened when Italy fairly recently tried to introduce a non-austerity budget? May’s government (Hammond, if I remember correctly) stated that they would do away with austerity policy as soon as we left the EU.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 6:11 AM
Reply to  Tony

FInancial probity is a EU objective for ALL members.

It is not a straitjacket!

Most members miss their targets and pay a small fine – more like a parking ticket then loss of driving license. What is draconian about that?

Tony
Tony
Aug 27, 2019 9:50 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Rubbish! Budgets have to be approved by the EU. That targets are missed slightly is only tolerated. The attempt to blame austerity policy on our own government is pure disingenuity, an attempt by remainers to divert the fact that increasing poverty is caused by EU policy.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 11:23 AM
Reply to  Tony

Show me proof of how the EU made the UK impose 10 years of Austerity.

Tony
Tony
Aug 28, 2019 11:43 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Oh, don’t be so silly. The UK committed itself to the EU project. The fiscal policy of the EU is austerity. I now fully understand why George Galloway fucked you off.

Tony
Tony
Aug 25, 2019 5:56 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

“Millions of Britains are impoverished”

Most of them became impoverished directly because of a sweetheart deal the EU did with it’s big business friends, which allowed businesses to source as many low-paid workers from Eastern Europe as they wanted. Thus, wages stagnated/dropped in the countries into which the workers were imported. And the economies of the countries from which the workers were sourced stagnated because of a lack of said workers. But, hey, businesses in Western Europe made loads more money, and their middle classes and up ( you know, the people who voted Remain?) got richer, so it’s all good, right?

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Aug 25, 2019 7:41 PM
Reply to  Tony

I agree free movement of Labour has contributed to certain dynamics (some good, some not so good) although in or out of the EU I do not think this overall dynamic will change substantially given the far reaching consequences of globalisation. Anyway let me row back a bit – I would describe myself as an EU agnostic leaning slightly toward remain if you held a gun to my head. All I’m saying is that since 2016 I have seen very little that has persuded me Brexit will deliver anything other than a 1,000 year tory reich. At the same time none of the big problems are close to being resolved, be it the backstop, the likely sacrifice of the NHS, the breed of politicians who have bodged negotiations and now the emergence of contingency plans which seem to suggest short term chaos and a hard right tory government calling the… Read more »

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 6:15 AM
Reply to  Tony

Non stop bullshit.

AUSTERITY imposed as a political choice by Cameron Clegg and Osborne – is the cause of impoverishment.

Tony
Tony
Aug 28, 2019 11:49 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

Non-stop bullshit indeed. As though we could have remained in the EU had Cameron, Osborne and Clegg rebelled against EU fiscal policy.

different frank
different frank
Aug 25, 2019 1:38 PM
Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Aug 25, 2019 5:17 AM

I almost bought a copy of Animal Farm in a second hand bookshop today, but then read your excellent article instead Frank. As I don’t live in the UK, and try to avoid the fakestream ‘Neoliberal’ media as much as possible, I don’t know a great deal about the current situation, except for what is on independent sites like this.
Regards the Green MP….. The Greens are not Left or Socialist or anything else progressive. They are full blown supporters of Neoliberalism, however, they just want to soften the edges, so to speak. I have a pretty low opinion of the Greens anywhere in the World. Thanks for this Frank.

Bootlyboob
Bootlyboob
Aug 25, 2019 11:08 AM
Reply to  Gezzah Potts

Don’t agree at all. Di Natale is the only one in there having a go. Hardly neoliberal.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YCEFwi4gf18

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Aug 25, 2019 12:11 PM
Reply to  Bootlyboob

Thanks for the video clip Bootlyboob, however we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Read the first 4 paragraphs of Frank’s article. Secondly, who constitutes the main base of the Greens? The affluent middle class. Correct? Thirdly, they do not oppose the very system that causes such inequality, exploitation and poverty; namely Neoliberalism – or turbo charged Capitalism if you will. Fourthly, they do not want systemic change, but to merely soften the edges, and to institute Green Capitalism on a major scale. End of the day, its still Capitalism. And think of all those billions to be made. In my view, the Greens are middle class opportunists, and If push really came to shove, I know whose side they would take. Then there’s the whole crap of Identity Politics they seem so fond of. They’re my views, and as I said, I agree to disagree with you. Frank Lee… Read more »

Bootlyboob
Bootlyboob
Aug 25, 2019 2:31 PM
Reply to  Gezzah Potts

There’s no basis in fact to call them opportunists or supporters of neoliberalism or ultra capitalism. The economic policies written on their website and their speeches in parliament and the activism of their members simply contradict that.

Capricornia Man
Capricornia Man
Aug 26, 2019 9:31 AM
Reply to  Gezzah Potts

The Greens (in Australia) have some progressive policies but are not a socialist party. At least they haven’t joined the capitulationist ‘Labor’ party by becoming, in effect, a party in the federal conservative coalition government.

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Aug 26, 2019 9:59 AM

I did have some time for individual Greens, particularly Lee Rhiannon, and Scott Ludlam, however I stand by what I said in my above comments.

Antonym
Antonym
Aug 25, 2019 4:11 AM

WASP male Deep state has used people of colour (Obama) and the next gimmick was to be women (Clinton) as socket puppets. Plenty of Barbie dolls around apart from the Kens (Blair, Trudeau, Macron).
“For a few dollars more” a who batch of people are ready to hire themselves out.Plenty of voting sheep to fall for this too.
As there is more power and money beyond the nation state US deep state has gone global. It dragged alone 3 others of the 5 eyes while the UK-London was assisting in front.

CPC-Xi China is trying globalisation too for similar reasons but from a different historical set up.

After women it is kids (Greta).

Tony
Tony
Aug 25, 2019 6:17 PM
Reply to  Antonym

That a child, and one with autism, is being used so aggressively by the globalists is truly disgusting. But, then again, we now know that said globalists put children to even more disgusting uses in their social lives.

Mark my words, Greta Thunburg will be used by them to gradually introduce eugenics into public debate under the auspices of overpopulation and unsustainability. They don’t need us anymore, now that AI is on the scene.

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 12:35 AM

What they are hoping is that knee-jerk emotionalism, dragged behind the “MeMeMeToo” bandwagon, will overrule all legal, diplomatic and common-sense considerations.
They’d better be wrong.

Doctortrinate
Doctortrinate
Aug 24, 2019 10:34 PM

thankfully – I still have the freedom to turn off the Telescreen – My way….so, to hell with them – because I think it guranteed , that whatever the direction on offer – is only to keep the population in line – so wherever They lead us – will only be to an end of their design…. .

Sales
Sales
Aug 25, 2019 12:12 AM
Reply to  Doctortrinate

“I still have the freedom to turn off the Telescreen”

No such a thing.

In 2015, Samsung’s privacy policy warned people not to talk about private conversations in front of their TVs.
More accurate to add: “Even when the TV device seems turned off!”.

Weeping Angel places the target TV in a ‘Fake-Off’ mode, so that the owner falsely believes the TV is off when it is on. In ‘Fake-Off’ mode the TV operates as a bug, recording conversations in the room and sending them over the Internet to a covert CIA server.

To summarise:

– When the smart TV is ON, it sends your conversations to the manufacturer’s network/server (and God knows where else!).

– When it is OFF, it can send the conversations directly to the spooks’ server.

Doctortrinate
Doctortrinate
Aug 25, 2019 2:01 AM
Reply to  Sales

Sales….Very interesting and thank you – and is one of the reasons that I dont do “smart” anything – but again – as long as one is free to pull the plug . . .. .. . . . .

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Aug 25, 2019 2:52 AM
Reply to  Sales

Cancel your license, lose the telly.
Simples.
You’ll be surprised at how much free time you suddenly find you have to do far more useful things with your life.

Tony
Tony
Aug 26, 2019 4:46 PM

We had the obligatory visit from TV licensing after I cancelled. I invited him in, showed him round, and told him my reason for cancelling. He went from perfunctory to frank, and agreed with me, stating that what I’d done was the future for media, and the Beeb was doomed in it’s current form.

mark
mark
Aug 24, 2019 10:15 PM

Lord save us from this monstrous regiment of wimmin.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Aug 24, 2019 9:22 PM

Since we are discussing’s Orwell’s 1984 and the middle classes, we might consider the opening paragraphs of Emmanuel Goldstein’s book-within-a-book (The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism): Throughout recorded time, and probably since the end of the Neolithic Age, there have been three kinds of people in the world, the High, the Middle, and the Low. They have been subdivided in many ways, they have borne countless different names, and their relative numbers, as well as their attitude towards one another, have varied from age to age: but the essential structure of society has never altered. Even after enormous upheavals and seemingly irrevocable changes, the same pattern has always reasserted itself, just as a gyroscope will always return to equilibrium, however far it is pushed one way or the other The aims of these three groups are entirely irreconcilable. The aim of the High is to remain where they are.… Read more »

UreKismet
UreKismet
Aug 25, 2019 2:46 AM

Couldn’t disagree more. Perhaps in the whitefella culture, but even then I reckon there will have been exceptions.
Work with other less ‘civilised’ IOW less rigidly structured and inflexible cultures and you’ll learn that this form is eschewed, precisely because it causes the set in concrete layers of privilege/no privilege which create strife in a community.

George
George
Aug 25, 2019 8:55 AM

The tripartite vision of society also crops up in Leo Strauss and Noam Chomsky and I think Plato had a similar vision. Although Strauss and Plato were recommending it and Chomsky was only saying this is the way it was. There was also a further detail (which may also be in Orwell – it’s a while since I read him) and that is that the High remain hidden and the Low also remain hidden (in the sense that they are an indistinguishable crowd). But the Middle are the “executive” class in that they are the propagandists of the system. They are the journalists, editors, presenters, academics, entertainers etc. Chomsky expanded on this by saying that the education and thoughts of the High and Low don’t matter – the High because they can think and do what they want, the Low because it doesn’t matter about them. But the education of… Read more »

George
George
Aug 25, 2019 9:59 AM

One major problem with Orwell’s tripartite vision is that it necessarily leads to a chronic conservatism. Indeed – it conforms to the Right’s emphasis that revolution will only lead to more of the same anyway. I don’t know much about Orwell but I’m guessing that “1984” was a late work. For all its brilliance in laying bare the mechanics of propaganda, it feels like a work of despair. And it underlines the fact that for most of the twentieth century the Left retreated into a defeatism whereby they assumed that capitalism was eternal, after which these Left thinkers churned out lucrative tomes on postmodernist deconstruction – which, of course gave them a thrill of transgression but achieved nothing other than feathering their own nests. The big problem with despair is that, ironically, it is only a feasible position if things aren’t too bad. You can shrug your shoulders with a… Read more »

Kathy
Kathy
Aug 25, 2019 3:20 PM
Reply to  George

The inevitability and pointlessness of change within the message, promotes the idea that all is, as all will always be. This instills in the reader an apathy for change and ensures an attitude of despair and futility that keeps the level of conformity to hierarchy in place. The moral of the story is to prevent dissent and maintain the power base as is. I feel the same with the Lord of the flies.

George
George
Aug 25, 2019 3:46 PM
Reply to  Kathy

“Lord of the Flies” is a curious case. Marx wryly noted that those “Robinsonades” (novels like “Robinson Crusoe” that supposedly take us back to a pristine state of nature) are always filled with the civilised values of the time they are written. The story goes that William Golding was mocking that old Ballantine children’s book “The Coral Island” in which three shipwrecked boys work together. Golding wondered what would “really happen” when his wife told him to go and write it. Hence the “Flies” book. But is the Golding book any more realistic? From what I recall, some of the boys even go off to form a kind of “military division”. The book obviously reflects Golding’s world – and ours. But it seems to me that people truly shipwrecked would have to work together for the sake of simple survival.

Kathy
Kathy
Aug 25, 2019 5:59 PM
Reply to  George

I quite agree. If ship wrecked, it would be more likely and beneficial that people would work together. It is interesting that the idea of mutual cooperation is so easily and often dismissed though. It is almost as if this concept of cooperative existence can not be allowed to go unchallenged. Golding was an interesting man, and definitely of his time. The trauma of two world wars in fairly quick succession obviously impacted and may have given extra weight to the idea of bullying and violence predominating. But I also think the Darwinian theory has a lot to answer for. It may not even have been the intention of the authors, either Golding or Orwell, but it is the dystopia that makes me uneasy in both writers works.

George
George
Aug 25, 2019 8:25 PM
Reply to  Kathy

In the end it isn’t so much the personal vision of these writers that matters as much as the use that they are put to. Orwell’s 1984 was a world embracing system that depended on having three parts with a highly variable war going on between them – this war being a fraud to keep a ruling class in power. Thus it doesn’t seem to me to be specifically about capitalism or communism so much as an overall propaganda system to maintain a class structure. Of course, the fact that the world as depicted by Orwell looked just like the stereotypical Western representation of communism was a gift to anti-communists. Golding’s descent into barbarism naturally suited the capitalist vision of nature “red in tooth and claw”. Somewhere, Marx suggests that Darwin’s own theory of survival of the fittest was based on capitalist ideology. Darwin – or, to be more precise,… Read more »

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc
Aug 24, 2019 9:16 PM

Frank Lee,

I just love the stuff you write, and I would love to meet you “in Sutton with his wife and little dog”.
There are lots of Suttons in the UK. If you live in the one close to Carshalton, take them both for a walk in the park on Monday. I know some of the musicians on, and I might even recognise you. Have you got any books to sell? If so, I would like to buy you a drink. It’s going to be very hot.

https://www.ecolocal.org.uk/

Tony

George
George
Aug 24, 2019 9:13 PM

I would describe the middle class as being the most volatile due to the fact that they are – as Hal Draper once said – the “Janus” class i.e. looking two ways. And – I may add, with a dislike for both options i.e. fear of the ones above and loathing for the ones below. For me, the most perfect example of the middle class came from Roger Scruton. Yeah – I know he’s probably considered more of an oddball and yet from what I’ve read of him, he seems to veer between a doglike devotion to The Great Golden ones above and a vicious loathing of the subhuman scum below who, of course, are ever ready to drag him down to their primordial level. I think the voice constantly playing out in the middle class mind says, “Don’t get too comfy. If you don’t keep your masters happy, we… Read more »

Ash
Ash
Aug 24, 2019 10:00 PM
Reply to  George

“Powers that be.” Sometimes TPTB.

nottheonly1
nottheonly1
Aug 24, 2019 10:15 PM
Reply to  George

Try DuckDuckGo instead and see what happens.

George
George
Aug 25, 2019 9:46 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

That’s one of the best. I also like this comment on class:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17fafupOKOE

It’s the way Melchett “complements” i.e. patronizes Baldrick … before punching him.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 24, 2019 8:23 PM

Please stop the self-righteous delusions that the Brexit vote had something to do with democracy. Yes it was a vote but an uninformed one. Frank Lee, you live in a country where 42% of the population could name the PM in the last survey I could find from the Hansard Society. But this beat the 25% that could name their own MP. It was so embarrassing they stopped asking the question in their annual survey. The vast majority of Brits had close to zero idea of what Brexit would mean. But they did know it would mean fewer Polish food stores on the High St. Being in higher education I was familiar first hand. UN is in England had little idea at first, only to learn their government had no idea. What Brexit means outside the British Isles is that many British faced with a choice between the anti-war ethos… Read more »

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 24, 2019 9:40 PM
Reply to  Editor

Horrifying? Steady on there. I was critiquing the Democratic process on this issue. You did not address my comments, instead choosing to group me with others. You claim there is no democracy but my comments antedate your after the fact claims. If people did not understand what Brexit meant, show me some data that they did! And pray tell how many EU troops were sent to Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen etc, And how many British ones? And explain why the American military envies the British one because they can get away with things they cannot, as they put it. And tell me about how many EU countries were involved in Diego Garcia, or Gitmo? Or rendering of any kind? Of course it is complex but your mock characterization of the Nasty US and the nice EU is too close to the truth for you to risk using it. Now that… Read more »

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 12:46 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

The public are not better informed.
The media have simply gone into overdrive to reverse the result of the referendum.
Except on trivial matters, our media today NEVER inform the public.
They manipulate them.

mark
mark
Aug 25, 2019 1:06 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

How many EU troops? Quite a lot, though you don’t read much about it in the fake MSM. Which EU countries in Libya? Britain. France. Italy, the former genocidal colonial power. Denmark. Not sure about Norway, bad example, not EU. probably others, officially and unofficially. You can draw up similar lists for Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. The Baltic countries always turn up to supply a bit of cannon fodder. Denmark had a lot killed in Afghanistan. Britain was training terrorists in Turkey and Jordan 5 years before the war in Syria. How many EU countries were involved in Gitmo or rendering? Almost all of them, on a big scale. Ireland, in a big way. Britain, of course. Germany. Secret prisons in Poland, the Balkan countries, the Baltic countries. Most of the others certainly were. Quite likely all of them. If you don’t respect a democratic referendum result, how many more should… Read more »

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 25, 2019 1:47 AM
Reply to  mark

You were doing fine until you lost it and started to make personal sarcastic ad hominem comments. This is not about me, nor is it even about you.

mark
mark
Aug 25, 2019 2:16 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

No, our fine democracy worked on that basis for most of its history.
Only 40% of men had the vote prior to 1914.
And no wimmin of course.

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 5:01 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

Sarcasm seems appropriate here in order to make the crucial point.
In this mad scenario, one could, frankly, suggest the following:
Let’s not have a referendum, or election for that matter, ever again, because a group of people who don’t like the result will call for another one.
This is just like Erdogan a couple of years ago in Turkey. He didn’t feel the election result gave him a big enough majority, so he called another one, which miraculously DID give him an increased majority.
Is that a democratic election?
Daft, I call it.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 25, 2019 11:06 AM
Reply to  wardropper

Wardropper, I can’t tecall disagreeing with you before. But I do on this one. Certainly the responsibility lies with the government putting a complex broadly reaching question before the public prematurely. This is a lot more specific than Erdogan. The far better analogy is Quebec and that is what frightens the Exiteers. Hanging arguments on democracy being violated and trying desperately to hold on to a flawed vote result pretends that more critical information has become available which demands reconsideration. Actually a mountain of information. In my opinion. Declaring that people cannot change their mind is ridiculous.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 25, 2019 11:28 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

There is a “not” missing. ..more critical information has not become..

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 3:29 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

I have no argument with the principle of people changing their mind, George, but I find it difficult to comprehend what a “flawed vote result” might be.
It is simply a result, and I would feel that way in any electoral circumstances.
In due course, another election will always come, and I really have a problem with the idea that people might demand, and get, another referendum just because they have lost patience with the result of the original one, or have “changed their mind”.
Where could that possibly end?
People changing their mind a month after an election?
A week after?
A day?
Like re-marrying after the death of a spouse, surely a decent interval should elapse…?
In any case, this is already dragging on for such a long time that the original result of the Brexit referendum will soon expire respectably, as it should.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 25, 2019 4:08 PM
Reply to  wardropper

I certainly appreciate your concern and there are undoubtedly unattractive implications of arbitrarily discounting a vote. I think we differ on how we view the vote at the time. Working in a public service position I did informally canvas people on this and I thought the reasons for voting Brexit were, in my small sample, more emotive than rational. My uni colleagues were overwhelmingly against exit, and even they did not grasp many of the practical implications. But for me it is largely the clash in ethos with the inevitable alternative, the Americans, that makes me favour remaining for the time being. The global cred and influence of the UK has suffered, IMO, by alignment with the “greatest threat to world peace”, which the Americans win in poll after poll. I just can’t see that as a desirable thing, unless they have a meaningful change in leadership.

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 4:36 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

I agree that there was a great deal of emotion involved in the referendum. But emotion is never ruled out in any election either.
If only highly intelligent and wise people were allowed to vote, we would not have the society we are stuck with today.
In the case of this referendum, my own emotions – tempered by as much reasonable attention to rational thought as I could muster – pointed to a very strong mistrust of the EU leadership, which, to my mind always follows Washington in important matters of war and peace.
Therefore I most certainly share your concern about “the greatest threat to world peace” 100%, but I also fear that this threat has infected the EU bureaucracy terminally.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 7:11 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

“…Working in a public service position, I…”

You keep on reminding us of that from time to time, seemingly unaware of the fact that many of us are simultaneously reminded of how it seems to be one of the things that leads to early-onset senility.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 25, 2019 8:12 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Nice one. My goodness you are perceptive, and congenial too! What makes you think anything I have is early?

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 10:11 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

“What makes you think anything I have is early?”

Looking in the mirror.

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 25, 2019 3:34 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Wardropper, I can’t tecall disagreeing with you before. But……

You didn’t reply as I assumed you would so you must change your ideology.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 25, 2019 4:12 PM
Reply to  lundiel

I don’t get you.

Tony
Tony
Aug 30, 2019 11:10 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

The public isn’t better informed. It’s just been subjected to a much more intense and relentless campaign from Project Fear.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 30, 2019 11:45 PM
Reply to  Tony

That is true but they are also much better informed.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 24, 2019 11:19 PM
Reply to  Editor

Where were you when Obama was in the UK telling the proles to vote Remain?

And where were you Admin when Trump was lauding Johnson as PM, and then lauding a No Deal Brexit? And a “great” trade deal with the US?

And where were you when related to this, Pompeo said they would not allow Corbyn to be PM?

Brexit is nothing but a neoliberal coup which the uneducated have been persuaded is a great idea by the right wing rags. That Marxists support them is delusion of the highest order.

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 12:55 AM
Reply to  Editor

Well said.
Washington does not want Brexit, and Pompeo’s attitude to Corbyn is an unrelated result of the general U.S. political desire never to meet significant opposition from any left-leaning foreign statesman/woman.
Our British political parties are of no interest to the U.S.A. because it knows it can walk over all of them.

Ben Trovata
Ben Trovata
Aug 25, 2019 4:40 AM
Reply to  wardropper

I think team-USA fear the Labour Party;rightly or wrongly.

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 5:03 AM
Reply to  Ben Trovata

Somehow I doubt team-USA fears anything.
Their “narrative” doesn’t allow for it.
Also, the Labour Party is so divided on the “you-know-what” issue that I feel sure it wouldn’t take much more infiltration to finish the wrecking job.
I hope I’m wrong about that.
Otherwise, I would say the US government just doesn’t like the Labour Party, so perhaps “fear” is too strong a word?

Basher
Basher
Aug 25, 2019 10:04 AM
Reply to  Editor

Brexit will be neoliberalism 2.0 It didn’t have to be. Almost all that voted leave didn’t vote for neoliberalism 2.0 they wanted the opposite. But team Leave wasn’t led by people like them, it was led by other ‘establishment’ elites, like Al Johnson, Gove, Fox, Farridge, Banks, Mogg et all. Offshore money. In 2013 Cameron asked EU to allow UK overseas territories to be excempt from new EU tax avoidance regulations. EU refused in 2016. Within months EUref was called. Team Leave decided Brexit was a must. This is the sorry reality of Brexit. Democracy is a hollow shell, always manipulating people’s fears for the gain of elites.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 25, 2019 4:37 PM
Reply to  Basher

In 2013 Cameron asked EU to allow UK overseas territories to be excempt from new EU tax avoidance regulations. EU refused in 2016. Within months EUref was called.

Hmmm. As I recall, Cameron had already promised a referendum during the 2015 election campaign, provided that the Tories won. Unexpectedly, they did:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Growing_pressure_for_a_referendum

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 7:44 PM
Reply to  Editor

“Y2K style fear porn…”

Bad analogy. Usual opportunistic porn aside, the concern about a Y2k (lower case “k”) chain reaction was justified. Lots of things broke in many places but few were reported amidst the general relief that they hadn’t catastrophically cascaded.

mark
mark
Aug 25, 2019 1:13 AM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

All those “uneducated” deplorables again.
Don’t forget the old, bigoted racists as well.

Trump couldn’t care less about Brexit.
He’s aware that Britain’s spooks and Deep State were up to their necks in the Russiagate hoax to stop him being elected, then to delegitimise him as president. Steele, Dearlove and all the rest. Trump doesn’t do forgive and forget. He just used Brexit to repay the favour and stick the knife into May.

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 5:12 AM
Reply to  mark

Agreed.
Not that there aren’t a million good, fact-based reasons to stop Trump being elected and to delegitimize him…

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 6:32 AM
Reply to  mark

And BOBO was in charge at the FCO – which ran thay operation.

So the question is has potus forgiven him?

S.R.Passerby
S.R.Passerby
Aug 25, 2019 8:41 AM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Brexit is nothing but a neoliberal coup which the uneducated have been persuaded is a great idea by the right wing rags. That Marxists support them is delusion of the highest order. Where do you get this from? I voted out because it’s clear the EU is not my friend. It’s passive except for claiming money. Does nothing to stop jobs being taken away, and actually makes things harder with free movement (do you know any EU countries that unskilled Brits can triple their wages upon arrival?) And the investments? Let’s take the usual bypass or station upgrade. 1) The companies who are awarded the contract are _never_ local. 2) Many of the workers will have come from outside the area. So, how many local will have gained valuable skills and employment? How many locals will have seen extra revenue arrive due to this expensive project? And where exactly can… Read more »

John A
John A
Aug 25, 2019 9:03 AM
Reply to  S.R.Passerby

So basically, you cut off your nose to spite your face!

S.R.Passerby
S.R.Passerby
Aug 25, 2019 9:14 AM
Reply to  John A

Not really, as my face is spite’d regardless of nose position (or eyes, mouth or ears for that matter?

Be honest. If the EU was ever going to succeed, it would be when perfidious albion isn’t around.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 25, 2019 4:31 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

And where were you Admin when Trump was lauding Johnson as PM, and then lauding a No Deal Brexit? And a “great” trade deal with the US?

All of which happened after the Brexit referendum. I notice you ignored his point about Obama.

mark
mark
Aug 24, 2019 9:58 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Yes, democracy is SOOOOOO inconvenient. It should be done away with so that “informed” superior beings like yourself can take all the decisions for us. That would be much better. But then I’m just one of the 75% who couldn’t name their MP. Some eminently forgettable Blairite clone you wouldn’t recognise if he jumped up and bit you. When he gets home at night, his wife doesn’t know who he is and the dog takes him for an intruder and bites him. I only knew the previous one because he kept getting caught with his trousers down. I’m also one of the 99.9999999999% who couldn’t name their Brussels MEP, which is perhaps more to the point. I can’t say I’m familiar with this EU anti war ethos. The EU I know is ever ready to supply some cannon fodder for whichever country Uncle Sam happens to be invading at the… Read more »

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 24, 2019 11:01 PM
Reply to  mark

What’s with the sarcasm? I said there was no democracy because the people were so uniformed. I backed this up with:
1) data
2) from a credible source
3) data that was published

You may wish to see the annual reports from the Hansard Society, not making it into, i.e. censored by the MSM, save for the Indie quoting a Cambridge uni newspaer, the Varsity.

Instead of dealing with the data, or even acknowledging it, you belittle it and say you are one of them, who can’t answer the most basic question about your political leadership.. And you think that is a rebuttal?

As for what led to the EU, it is readily available. I am old enough to remember. Your comments on the EU should be taken in the context of a comparison with the UK.

mark
mark
Aug 25, 2019 1:30 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

Who cares what bag of bugger all is swanning around Westminster fiddling his expenses and claiming to “represent” you?
Why bother remembering their name?
What difference does it make to anybody, really, except themselves?

What led to the EU is the desire for a corporatist, globalist happy hunting ground, an arrogant, corrupt, bureaucratic, anti democratic protectionist racket, serving the interests of the 0.1%.

And the desire for a job creation programme for failed, corrupt, discredited, and clapped out politicians like Mandelson. Or Kinnock. And his missus. And his son. And his missus. And their budgie, if they’ve got one. Give them a job in charge of bendy bananas or curvy cucumbers on half a million euros a year.

And three years after June 2016, we’re still giving this shower of s*it £50 million A DAY.

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 5:21 AM
Reply to  mark

Quite.
Winston Churchill was in on the earliest discussions about a united Europe, and he even envisaged a “United States of Europe”, with Britain, and of course himself, running the show. Other countries begged to differ from this vision and preferred to have themselves in the pilot seat.
We don’t seem to have moved on much since then, except that Britain’s bargaining position no longer has a whacking great empire behind it.

Ken Kenn
Ken Kenn
Aug 24, 2019 10:41 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Couldn’t agree more. What everyone has forgotten in the world equation ( never mind the local difficulty of Brexit ) is that we have experienced the greatest Financial Crash since the depression. The upshot of that in the Western world is that the so called Middle Classes incomes have been squeezed in relative terms to the workers and the poor and the very very poor. So, those in jobs ( Guardian and BBC journalists – on contracts or Uber journalists) go with the PTB line. The Washinton Post- The New York Times writers are no different. Meanwhile the really outers rely on blogs and Patreon for a living. Singing for your supper is the key here and since around 1981/82 season with Reagan and Thatcher mixed with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the fall of the Berlin wall and the public observation of Socialism in one country –… Read more »

mark
mark
Aug 24, 2019 11:06 PM
Reply to  Ken Kenn

You may well have a point here. But there is now the potential for an implosion of both major parties. The Tories for failure to deliver Brexit, Labour because of non stop backstabbing from the Blairites and the constant anti Semitism smears. It could even degenerate into broad farce, a straight fight between Farage and the Liberals, or whatever they call themselves nowadays. Regarding the conformism of the middle class, MI5, of all people, had an interesting take on this a few years ago. They brought out a report predicting that the middle class would replace the working class as the new revolutionary class. Their surprisingly frank argument was that everybody apart from the 0.1% were being steadily ground down into a new lumpen proletariat. The middle class were losing everything that had once given them a stake in the system – reasonable pay, benefits, pensions, job security, maybe a… Read more »

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 5:37 AM
Reply to  mark

That is a very interesting and credible scenario.
I also know of a number of cases where this system-crash of apathy and indifference in the middle class is happening.
There is also a wider philosophic angle affecting those people, which perhaps also explains why they were losing everything that had once given them a stake in the system:
The authorities above them no longer had a moral compass, and therefore increasingly saw no point in giving their employees any stake in the system at all.
That’s the point to which Thatcherism has brought us.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 24, 2019 11:12 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

Exactly this GC.

Butties
Butties
Aug 24, 2019 11:15 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

This matches you to a tee. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZECd9kR2Ms

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 25, 2019 1:41 AM
Reply to  Butties

So not content with a fact-free response, you double down by a sending a message which is entirely composed of infantile personal abuse. You aren’t ready for debating. I can only imagine.

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 5:46 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

I’m afraid the YouTube video follows an entirely logical path to its conclusion.
The man is a comedian, so one expects a little exaggeration for effect’s sake, but he is essentially dead right – as are many comedians today.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 25, 2019 11:08 AM
Reply to  wardropper

There is rich fodder for comedy, that much is clear.

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 25, 2019 9:10 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

Please stop the self-righteous delusions that the Brexit vote had something to do with democracy. Yes it was a vote but an uninformed one.

An ad hominem comment pushed by the Guardian and it’s supporters every day.

You were doing fine until you lost it and started to make personal sarcastic ad hominem comments. This is not about me, nor is it even about you.

No, it’s about proles not knowing what they voted for if I read your comments correctly

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 25, 2019 10:58 AM
Reply to  lundiel

You read it correctly in part but I did not say proles. Check and you will see I said I was in higher ed and that those in it and much less the government understood the implications. Why are you trying gratuitously to make this a class thing?

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 25, 2019 12:59 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

I’ve had 3 years of the same argument you are posing here. It always starts off as a presumption that among other things, leave voters didn’t know what they were voting for and when people, understandably take offence at that and reply in kind they are accused of ad hominem attacks (I got banned from the Guardian for that very thing.). The argument then becomes one of class. By posing a theory that “people didn’t know what they were voting for” you have made it a class issue, which you (remain extremists) then use to steer the debate into a culdesac with arguments like “Is a train driver earning £50k working class”.
Sorry, I’m not getting involved in it, I’ve had 3 years of lunacy from people who used to describe themselves as left-wingers, only for it to be established they were always liberals at heart.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 25, 2019 1:23 PM
Reply to  lundiel

My dear Lundiel, you have now got this down to who I am and the left wing credentials of people like me. Well I am an emeritus prof at an ancient uni familiar to you. I marched vs the war in Iraq and vs the invasion of Vietnam Nam in the 60’s. I have voted Labour despite my deep misgivings about that reptile Blair. Are you any wiser now?

Leaving was initiated by the rightist of right and the strange bedfellows made in transit have been surprising. For me the big picture issue has been does the UK see itself as part of Europe or do they want to be subject to the likes of Bush, Trump et al. Because you will be, as indeed you have been, in matters of foreign policy. And you will become increasingly dependent on the Americans economically , want it or not.

mark
mark
Aug 26, 2019 1:17 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

This place couldn’t be more grovelling and obsequious to Uncle Sam than it already is.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 26, 2019 1:56 AM
Reply to  mark

On that we agree

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 25, 2019 4:25 PM
Reply to  lundiel

I am an emeritus prof at an ancient uni familiar to you. I marched vs the war in Iraq and vs the invasion of Vietnam Nam in the 60’s. I have voted Labour despite my deep misgivings about that reptile Blair. Are you any wiser now? Not really. I always assumed that academics stood “in our corner”, and that’s how it was up-until-Brexit, except it wasn’t really, we can only rely on the ‘thinking man’s vote’ till it splits us as Brexit has done. We (the people) had 45 years to decide whether we liked the EU or not. For me, as a no voter in the original referendum, it was an eyeopener as to how we were so insular before joining. However, once we joined, Europe, often led by us, went further and further to the right while becoming more and more ‘liberal’ economically. I was appalled by the… Read more »

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 25, 2019 4:46 PM
Reply to  lundiel

PS Conservatives aren’t pro-American any more than Labour are. There are probably more Atlanticists in the Labour and LibDem ranks than there are in the Conservative party, who for all its different factions and ideological roots is staunchly patriotic.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 10:52 PM
Reply to  lundiel

“…I can only think that your world view revolves around your job and your mortgage…”

He’s an emeritus.

“…and at all costs keeping property as an asset…”

Probably not so much any more. Now it’s more likely that undivided attention is paid to keeping merit as an asset.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Aug 26, 2019 1:57 AM
Reply to  lundiel

Think again.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 26, 2019 11:30 AM
Reply to  lundiel

Lundiel,

I’m going to stick my oar in here about your spurious claims of being misled for 50 years. The trajectory of the EU and your absolute certainty of it’s demise!

You have to ask why we tried so hard to join when we knew exactly what the future plan was?
And why then we have decided to leave when that plan is coming to fruition?

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 26, 2019 12:55 PM
Reply to  DunGroanin

We were informed of no such trajectory when we joined. The Maastricht/Lisbon treaty changed that and wrote neoliberalism into EU law. Those countries that got a referendum had to vote again until the right result was forthcoming. If the UK had been allowed to vote back then the result would have been overwhelming….NO.

And why then we have decided to leave when that plan is coming to fruition?

There was no plan, no one foresaw the rapid eastward expansion and polling on what the country thinks about adopting the Euro always returns around three quarters, 75% against. Some things like federation and adopting the Euro were always a step too far for the majority in this country. So it seems to me like a good time to leave given we’d have to go at some point anyway.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 6:47 AM
Reply to  lundiel

Utter revisionism of history by you now – I have posted a full post near the top that PROVES we new exactly where the EU was heading BEFORE we barged in.

The we didn’t know what we were letting ourselves in for shtick does not wash.

mark
mark
Aug 26, 2019 1:13 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

Maybe we should just tug our collective forelocks to our betters in the Bullingdon Club. They had a splendid expensive Eton and higher education.

If you discount the Jocks and the Paddies (and the sooner that lot clear off the better), the result was 53.5 – 46.5, a margin of 7%.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 6:48 AM
Reply to  mark

Plucky little Englanders eh?

Brian Steere
Brian Steere
Aug 24, 2019 8:19 PM

The art of the psyop is to manipulate outcomes through those who are useful tools. From the first, brexit is a deliberate design. Now it may be that damage control runs the elites to maintain their sustainability by inducing others to feed them power of support and allegiance. And yet there is also clearly very long range objectives conceived in a few, set out in inner circles and then cascading through plans of implementation – no doubt supporting all sides so that there is always a hedge against the unexpected. Why? Because they can, and have and do. I read ‘Hidden History; The Secret Origins of the First World War’. by Gerry Docherty and Jim Macgregor. recently and its shows how even back then official channels and democratic process can be sidestepped, kept in the dark, and made useful tools to what they may take as self advancement based on… Read more »

Basher
Basher
Aug 24, 2019 8:09 PM

Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds all voted remain. Scotland did. Just focusing on poncy southern cities can’t even fool a proud northerner like me.

mark
mark
Aug 24, 2019 10:06 PM
Reply to  Basher

Maybe London and Scotland should secede and form an independent new country.
They could call it “Lonland”, or “Scotdon.”
All the nice non-racist, non-bigoted, non-old, non-uneducated middle class people could emigrate and go and live there.

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 5:49 AM
Reply to  mark

Or, “Udopia”…

Basher
Basher
Aug 25, 2019 10:09 AM
Reply to  mark

But still no mention of Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds & Newcastle…..

mark
mark
Aug 25, 2019 7:14 PM
Reply to  Basher

They’re all too deplorable for the nice middle class people.
Like Cameron’s dad said, they can be used as fracking locations.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Aug 24, 2019 8:01 PM

‘What is new, however, is the sight of the liberal-left middle-class joining with the traditional conservative-right middle-class in defence of their interests, imagined or real.’ – I agree with most of the article but not this bit. ’97 was a pivotal year – the year Blair and Labour flat out embraced the right (presumably on the basis that if you cant beat ’em then join ’em). I mean who can forget Blairs sickening love in with Bush before the neocons torched Baghdad and beyond. Any remaining doubts about this trajectory should have evaporated when exhorbitant private debts were foisted onto the public purse under the austerity rubric, fucking up millions of families in the process. Back then a sizeable proportion of the middle class were still above the watermark – but during the last 10 years it has began to dawn on them that their children would accrue sizeable university… Read more »

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 5:57 AM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

That comment sums up something very real in our modern society.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Aug 25, 2019 9:15 AM
Reply to  wardropper

Cheers, wardropper.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Aug 25, 2019 11:49 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

“’97 was a pivotal year – the year Blair and Labour flat out embraced the right…”

Blair laid out his stall with all its ‘coming soon’ love bracelet trinkets in full plain view in 1994. From ’94 to ’97 he sold it to the Labour Party. ’97 is only notable as the year during which they conned it on to a parliamentary majority of the target elecotate. The script was already outlined. All they had to do by then was fly on the wall it into full scale reality.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Aug 27, 2019 6:56 AM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

The fact that one of the first Blairite invitee to No 10 was the evil fairy queen of neoliberalism – their spiritual godmother – was my oh, oh moment.

B Jones
B Jones
Aug 24, 2019 8:00 PM

The left MSM? What planet are you living on? There is NO left MSM…there is right, hard right and ultra right. You are delusional or part of the problem if you believe otherwise

Ash
Ash
Aug 24, 2019 10:11 PM
Reply to  B Jones

Sure… but marketing works. Democrats, Labour etc. are called “the radical left” and such so often by their opponents (even as they constantly move farther to the right) that millions of people erroneously think these characterizations are accurate.

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 25, 2019 6:14 AM
Reply to  B Jones

He did put inverted commas around “left”, though:
“The ‘left’ MSM”.
That said, I often make the point myself that there is no such thing as left MSM today, and I reckon it cannot be repeated too often.

bevin
bevin
Aug 24, 2019 7:50 PM

“Basically, social-democratic these publications gave their unstinting support to the social-democratic parties including the Labour party and various good causes around the world which were vaguely anti-imperialist…” Looking back it is quite evident that, while vague anti-imperialist noises were acceptable-after all those making them most loudly were generally members of the ruling class in exile- socialist tinkering with the economy was not. It was these ‘liberal left’ publications and circles of opinion which led the Labour Party steadily rightward. One of the consequences of which is that , after years of lazily allowing papers such as The Guardian to represent its views, it is now left without any news organs of its own. And this is pretty well unprecedented- from Cobbett’s Register to the Northern Star, to The Clarion, to the Daily Herald and Tribune there has always been a register of left opinion in the country. Not today though.… Read more »