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Discuss: Johnson Prorogues Parliament Boris happily gives up Brexit’s moral leverage

A past-master at seeming to discredit his position through association with his cartoonish buffoonery, Boris has taken it one step further: He’s just shut down Parliament.

Why has he done this? Well, allegedly, to allow him to force Britain to leave the EU – with or without a deal – on October 31st.

Did he need to? Not really. It is the PM’s prerogative to not put things to votes. He’s unlikely to have a vote of no-confidence go against him while Jeremy Corbyn is leader of the opposition. This doesn’t feel necessary at all.

In fact, it’s almost theatrical. A prop. It doesn’t mean what everyone is saying it means. This five-week “suspension” of Parliament includes three weeks that were going to be a break anyway, plus the current Parliament is already the longest in centuries.

Essentially, this is a totally empty gesture that achieves nothing, was tactically pointless and yet is incredibly publicly damaging in terms of optics.

So why did he do it? Because he’s a heel. He delights in being the guy we’re supposed to hate.

Through his “endorsement” the case for Brexit is attacked from within. His ludicrous bus provided the braying People’s Vote parade with their rallying cry, and now he has willfully reversed the conversation re: democracy.

The greatest argument FOR Brexit was a democratic one. Leave won the referendum, therefore had the democratic mandate. Shutting down Parliament allows the media to flip that narrative on its head.

Suddenly, out of nowhere, we find ourselves in a situation where Remain has a claim to be protecting democracy.

Across the House, Corbyn has long-since been manipulated into taking a pro-Remain position, even if he doesn’t call it that.

It has been my position, since the moment the result was announced, that the UK will simply not be allowed to leave the EU. Either we will “leave” under the terms of a “deal” that is so indistinguishable from simply remaining as it makes no difference OR we will be manoeuvred into a situation where it becomes “vital” that we remain for sake of democracy or “national security” or something like that.

The longer Boris acts out his farcical, almost clownish, “pro-Leave” premiership, the more the latter is looking increasingly inevitable.

Questions to answer:

  • Will we really leave the EU on Halloween of this year?
  • How will proroguing the commons change the conversation on Brexit?
  • How many “regardless of how you voted in the referendum, this is about our democracy” articles will there be?
  • When will there be a General Election, and does Corbyn stand any chance of winning?
  • Was Halloween chosen deliberately to enable “scary Brexit” memes?

Kit Knightly is co-editor of OffGuardian. The Guardian banned him from commenting. Twice. He used to write for fun, but now he's forced to out of a near-permanent sense of outrage.

Filed under: Brexit, EU, latest, UK, UK domestic politics

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Kit Knightly is co-editor of OffGuardian. The Guardian banned him from commenting. Twice. He used to write for fun, but now he's forced to out of a near-permanent sense of outrage.

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Chris Rogers

The whole charge of the Clowns present actions and the Brexit debate in general does seem like Pantomime to this observer, a massive ‘bait & switch’ exercise by TPTB to distract us from the crisis of Capitalism and ecological carnage left in Capitalism’s wake.

We have witnessed hysterical claims of Coups from the very folks who desire to disenfranchise 17.4 million Leave voters, the very same folk who cannot accept the authority of the twice elected Leader of the Opposition and the very same idiots who brandish EU flags at Demo’s supposedly in support of democracy, but not democratic outcomes themselves – utter hypocrisy.

As a politics geek, I’m of the opinion our electorate was far more informed in the 70s than it is today, this despite no Internet, only 3 TV channels and a legacy media owned by the same folks as today – in those days we still had large scale manufacturing employing 10s of 1000s on single sites, so workers at least could exchange views – we also had powerful Unions – not today I’m afraid to say.

So, here we are, we have a lamentable Parliament with lamentable MPs, all professional by the way and highly educated – just a shame we lack political giants, and boy did the Tories and Labour have giant’s among their ranks in 1975, at least a dozen of whom could have become competent Prime Ministers.

Can we really say this today with the administrator class that has taken hold of many of the reigns of power?

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi

Having ruminated on this some more I have come to the conclusion that Johnson is copying Trump’s tactics of doing something outrageous to distract the opposition. In this case proroguing Parliament – the hapless Remainiacs will then run around gnashing their teeth and pulling their hair trying to stop it while he gets to do a dirty deal round the back with the EU. It will be presented at the eleventh hour using the inverse of May’s tavtics viz. ‘my deal or no deal’ (versus May’s ‘my deal ro no Brexit’).
In the ensuing panic, a Parliamentary majority will form to vote through Boris’s deal (which I can guarantee will be substantially indistinguishable from May’s deal) and it will finally get voted through.
The opposition will be able to virtue signal that they stopped a no-deal, Boris can claim to have delivered Brexit.
However, he better call a snap election pronto before people figure out that it Brexit in name only and merely gives us all the disadvantages of EU membership with none of what little say is permitted.
As I have said before, the next election will produce a hung Parliament but will clear out a lot of the dog-in-the-manger MPs who have made the last few years (or decades) such penury, there will be another which swiftly follows.

mark
mark

Look at it from Johnson’s point of view.
He has to deliver Brexit, or something he can pass off as Brexit, or both he and the Tory Party are toast. Probably permanently.
If he agreed to another delay beyond 31 October, the result is the same.
The Remainers and Remoaners will never agree to any kind of deal anyway. Even if Brussels offered a deal with free champagne and naked go go dancers thrown in, it would never be good enough. They just want to remain.
And they will carry on with their mental gymnastics and using every dirty trick in the book and a few others Bercow hasn’t thought of yet.
Johnson understands this hard reality and knows that he has to get down and dirty and do whatever it takes to push this through. Otherwise he will just be another Theresa May Mark II.
Playing whatever constitutional and procedural and administrative games may be needed. Deselecting mutinous MPs.
Telling the Jocks they can have another independence vote if they want.
Facing down a No Confidence vote.
Or even losing one and calling a General Election, to be held after we have officially left on 31 October.
He might even win – “Vote for me, I’ve delivered Brexit, everybody else is defying the will of the people. We’ve left now. I’ll carry on trying to get a deal with Brussels, but it’s up to them. The British people just want this resolved. If you don’t, you’ll get the great bogeyman Corbyn.”
This could be a winning message at the election.
The opposition is hopelessly disunited and the Blairite Backstabber PLP is even more terrified of seeing Jezza in No. 10 than the Tories. Jezza is worth his weight in gold to Bojo.
I don’t see what else Bojo can do.
This should work.
Brussels will probably offer some kind of trade arrangement after we’ve left and their Fifth Column in Westminster have failed to prevent Britain leaving.

Tutisicecream

A Movie to Watch

[In a deep grainy American accent]

This Autumn, from the makers of Skripalbury, comes… Halloween 2019!

In an age when it was thought democracy was alive and ruled the earth, it is found to be dead.

What people thought was the truth turns out to be an illusion.

For the small Island of Albion and its people, who thought they had freedom and choice, they realise they have no freedom.. no choice.

And that the entitled ones rule!

Ruling Class Film brings you.

A Bullingdon Club production in association with Venture Capital and off-shore guilds of the Knights Templers.

Halloween 2019 – the Ghost of Empire

crank
crank

I have a counter theory to Kit’s piece here. Johnson’s moves are not an ’empty gesture’ ‘for his own delight’, and I don’t think the arguments that Kit puts forward really carry much water.

Did he need to [suspend parliament] ? Not really. It is the PM’s prerogative to not put things to votes. He’s unlikely to have a vote of no-confidence go against him while Jeremy Corbyn is leader of the opposition. This doesn’t feel necessary at all.

since the moment the result was announced, that the UK will simply not be allowed to leave the EU. Either we will “leave” under the terms of a “deal” that is so indistinguishable from simply remaining as it makes no difference OR we will be manoeuvred into a situation where it becomes “vital” that we remain for sake of democracy or “national security” or something like that.

I don’t think this is true. The commons has voted decisively several times against a No Deal and yet No Deal was/is Johnson’s main policy platform. He very likely would have a VONC against him and that, with the impossibility of pushing a NoDeal through parliament is exactly why he has prorogued and why other measures are in the off-ing to stop normal parliamentary process in the period between now and Oct 31st.
No, it is not a coup, and no it is not going against any ‘constitution’. It is though the undemocratic feudal aspect of the British system of governance asserting itself in a way not seen for many many years.
Those who argue that every single person who objects to Johnson’s moves are de facto supporting a Remain position and therefore are ‘anti-democratic’ (by wanting to overturn the 2016 referendum) are being extremely disingenuous. Manoeuvring us into No Deal is just as contrary to the spirit of democracy as a second referendum with a Remain option.
“But, but, the Establishment want Remain too…”, we hear.
Elsewhere three people (me being one) asked ‘What does the Establishment mean?’. If the Establishment are split on Brexit then who are they?
Is it right that the wealthiest 100 families in Britain are the direct descendants (give or take a few comings and goings) of the wealthiest 100 families of 1000 years ago (at the time of the Doomsday Book) ? It seems to be the case. If we consider this alongside the long history of the City of London we might conclude that one useful definition of ‘the Establishment’ – at least in a national sense – is the nexus of power between the landed aristocracy, royalty, and the ancient City of London.
The Conservative Party has always had this element in its ranks, combined of course with the Liberal international capitalist element. So when people said Brexit was essentially a intra party dispute, they were in one sense correct.

I theorise that if we were to examine the opinions of this strata of the power elite, almost with exception we would find the strongest and most engaged support for – not just Leave – but No Deal Leave. These people never wanted a negotiated exit, and knew that the whole A50 process had to be politically scotched. They selected Johnson as their political representative. Instead of pushing for his installation at Cameron’s resignation, they pulled enough strings to make sure that May took the fall for failing Brexit, and timed her exit so that the clock had run out on negotiation (or the pretence of it).
And here we are, on course for a No Deal Exit.

Many posts here and elsewhere have recognised Brexit as part of a larger story of the decline of liberal, industrial, fossil fuel driven, state led capitalism. Fossil fuels are running out. The ERoEI is in steep decline, and nothing can stop it. All economies are seeing growth go into reverse, and there is no remedy. Debts mount in China, India, Russia, the US, and here. It is collapsing. One consequence is that, gradually, over the coming decades and centuries, land will once again become the source of energy and therefore of political power.
The history of Britain which never saw the eradication of its feudal system has produced this situation where those who conceive of their power as rooted in the actual land of these islands find themselves once again slowly coming to the fore.
The industrialists, transnational manufacturers, the merchants, many of the financiers and the huge entourage of state and corporate bureaucrats who support them and who have risen to great heights over the past three centuries will gradually be replaced by others of prominence. It will all shrink, it has to.
I live out on the Western edge of Britain. People are moving here in droves to get away from it all before the shit comes crashing down. Middle class and some working class ’emigres’ from Eastern Britain who want to buy some land. To survive.
It only makes sense that the wealthiest also see this changing relationship with land too- the real source of long term production. It was after all the Club of Rome, and elitist think tank who commissioned the original ‘Limits to Growth’ research way back in the early 70s. They know and they’ve known what is coming.
So, yes, the morally vacuous centrists who continue to wave EU flags are dupes in a game of ‘let’s kill democracy’. But so are the ‘principled Lexiteers’ who have (in my reading) absolutely no clue about the realistic prospects for what our future society holds for us all.
The EU will disintegrate, no matter, but there is no vision from SNP, Greens, Labour or Libdem or centrist Conservatives of how to respond to the end of the fossil fuel era. All we have is the first whiff of re-emergence of the pre-industrial societal model : feudalism.
If you point that out, you are accused of endorsing it, but I am not. It’s just the turning of the wheels.

We’ll see who is right in the next few weeks.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/08/the-queens-active-role-in-the-right-wing-coup/

Stephen Evans
Stephen Evans

THERE WAS NO MANDATE IN LAW. If the referendum had been mandatory, it would have been annulled and Brexit would not have happened as it has. The fact that it was, in effect, an opinion poll is why the Brexit band kept rolling legally and we are where we are now. In 2016 little mention was made of the prospect of no deal, and it was dismissed by Leaver leaders. In March 2017 Article 50 was invoked, which allows leaving the EU either with or without a deal. May had 2 years to come up with a Withdrawal Agreement . This she did but failed 3 times to get it ratified, with the Backstop cited as the main reason. In September/October 2018 the re was talk of a no-deal being more likely. As each vote rejected the WA the talk of no-deal grew louder to the point where it has become the most likely outcome.

One of the elephants in the room is that the backstop would cease with an EU trade deal. This is almost certainly because we would be expected to adhere to elements of the Single Market/Customs Union as the EU cannot show preference to the UK over the other 27 members. This is what those who were objecting to the Backstop were against. Now the talk is beginning to suggest that a trade deal with the EU is to be avoided. If anyone thinks we can rely on a Trade deal with the USA, I think they need to get a grip with reality.

Molloy
Molloy

Admin…. “Brexit as theatre is exactly the point of much of our commentary.”

Exactly. Agreed. Diversion and theatre. So, why encourage distraction ? (The attempted undermining is ignored.)

Thank you kindly for that.

p.s. Before you ask, strangely, there was no reply box to be seen. So, apologies for full on comment re. Brexit divisiveness not worth falling out over (which, for me, you appear to be encouraging !!)

Zapp
Zapp

Pro-rogue?
That’s what parliament is – they’re all rogues!

Molloy
Molloy

re DG….
“Kit – i have never understood what exactly your reasons or motivations for being so anti EU membership are?”

Stream of consciousness ? Provocateur ? Concern troll ? Diverter of attention ? Who knows ?

Admin
Admin
Admin

Are you suggesting Kit is one or all of these? We encourage critique of the content of articles, but context-free and content-free ad hom toward the authors or anyone else is not helpful. Maybe you could explain your intentions more fully.

And please see our comment policy for our (very basic) house rules.

Molloy
Molloy

Thank you.
No. Am responding to the question raised by dungroanin. For me, this prompted a full comment, imho, rather than a reply.
A major part of the discourse–perhaps deliberately perhaps not–is erroneously skewed towards the ‘binary’ when in fact (as others have observed) ‘EU or not EU’ is merely a divide and rule ploy by the PTB. viz. surprise surprise to draw public attention away from warmongering and offshore/money/corruption.

Therefore when DG asks for reasons re ‘anti EU’ the question then becomes.. ‘for what reason is Kit anti-EU?’ (if he is at all? …I have no view on whether he is anti or not!! The basis for questions, however, is made out by DG.).
I surmise that DG’s question to Kit was maybe prompted by many commenters’, including myself, irritation re the deliberately PTB diversionary arguments caused by the fabled “brexit”. Divisive arguments are time consuming as well as distracting; and probably not deliberately intended by any of the parties commenting.

The context (you asked) was DG’s question. I believe that this is still unanswered. The second point (ad hom) is not worthy of reply.

Admin
Admin
Admin

Brexit as theatre is exactly the point of much of our commentary. The point about ad hom is very relevant. There was no need to begin a separate thread for this and it’s only self-reffing and distracting.

Molloy
Molloy

re. “other irritated commenters”, analysed earlier…..


Andy
I’m beginning to think Brexit is a smokescreen and big larks, merely a tool to raise and lower the value of the pound and extract billions for those who know how to manipulate the markets. Johnson’s attempting to yoyo the pound at a greater degree for as long as possible.

ANDREW CLEMENTS
“Brexit is one of two things – an exercise in divide and rule and mindfuckery with long game/short game benefits to exploit ” Probably not short of the mark a psyop to put the proles in their place.

JPH
JPH

Brexit referendum was clear and on top of it the EU parliament elections supplied a clear confirmation with Farage’s party with close to 30% topping all other parties with Lib Dem next at 14% and destroying both Labour and Tories.

That Brexit referendum did not add nor even mention all those hurdles the remainers want to add.

May’s “deal” would have demoted the UK to dependent non-member state still forced to comply with EU regulation. That would fit well to the European Neighborhood policy aiming for an exclusive trade zone and sphere of influence, but a true disaster for the UK. Just look at what happened to the Ukraine.

Wilmers31
Wilmers31

Britain needs to be out for the sake of the EU’s survival.

1. The EU needs to be a workable unit.
2. The EU will never be a workable unit while Britain is in, because Britain will always claim special rights and conditions.
3. Special rights and conditions anger others but the psychological damage from Class A members and Class B members is the biggest spanner in the works. In German, Britain is a Störfaktor which slows everything down through being obstinate making forward action impossible.
4. If Britain does not leave on 31st October the EU will be history soon and that’s a backward step for which Britain will not want to be known in the history books.

MLS
MLS

By ‘special conditions’ do you mean the right not to be shafted up the rear end in a monetary union designed to benefit German industry/agriculture and now co-opted by the IMF into just another neoliberal sweatshop?

Levels of religious belief and denial going on here .

davemass
davemass

As I said to my mates at work in June 2016, ‘they won’t let us go!’
I voted out for the people ‘oop North’ , me living quite comfortably in S.E. U.K.
with a nice job thank you…
We joined the EEC, not a burgeoning bureaucracy EU…Shuttling twixt Strasbourg and Brussels,
ridiculous salaries and perks, money that each country can spend better. It’s our tax money.
Ask a Remainer how they will fix this obscenity? Reform?! ‘My God’, ‘Mein Gott’, ‘Mon Dieu’,
never!
I hate Boris, Tories, but my decision in 2016, was not swayed by arguments and ‘facts’ from either side.
It is patronising to say the plebs can’t think for themselves.

William
William

Thanks for your thoughtfulness Dave from the se. I live up north and after brexit I’m looking forward to getting back to the days when our inclusive Westminster government invested in uk industry and jobs, by encouraging companies and venture capitalists to place their hard-earned north of Watford, instead of shutting them down when that nasty eu told thatcher to do it and sell off our industry to foreigners eh?
It’ll be great when we finally get a link from Newcastle to Scotland that doesn’t take half a day to get there, or an infrastructure of public transport that’s not over 40 years old and was second hand when we got it. Brilliant that they stop spending 2.5k less per head in the ne than London on transport…. Can’t wait for them to sell off the useless nhs and introduce medical insurance… I always knew it was that evil eu that was doing us down and not the Tory bastards

Basher
Basher

Your reasons for voting leave are your own. But ‘team leave’ defo isn’t going to deliver the above for you. Why would they? Road to Damascus conversion for Etonians and ex-bankers? I understand your arguments but those leading ‘team leave’ have no idea what you’re on about, they just needed your vote. People will still be sleeping in shop doorways, in fact maybe more will

Tony
Tony

Is this any worse that Grieve and Bercow conspiring to change a several hundreds of years old parliamentary procedure in order to facilitate remain MPs sabotage of brexit? No, it’s not even in the same ball park of constitutional outrage.

mark
mark

No it isn’t.
They’ve been lying and playing dirty for over 3 years.
Time to play them at their own game.
Bring it on, Remoaners.
Let’s see what you’ve got.
You can always emigrate to your beloved Brussels.

different frank
different frank

Remoaners.
Really?

mark
mark

We have an “impartial” Speaker driving around with “Bollocks To Brexit” on his car.

Anticitizen one
Anticitizen one

Yep, using our constitution as a reason to defend remaining in an organisation. The organisation that sees our constitution defiled by its Lisbon treaty, a rebadged EU constitution. Double think and double speak, utter hypocrisy.

K Ford
K Ford

BORIS JOHNSON – A man who betrays his family, will betray his country.

He will say it was a mistake, or that he ‘miss spoke’, or he forgot to declare income, and he will lie again and again.

But it is the people’s mistake for trusting him.

He joins a select band of betraying brothers –
Judas Iscariot
Marcus Brutus
Benedict Arnold
Marshal Petain
Vidkun Quisling
William Joyce

Michel ST-Love
Michel ST-Love

Wow, you really went far back in history to find a collection of traitors. You seemed to have forgotten Guy Fawkes…

Catte Black
Catte Black

I have to say a large number of commenters here seem to be missing an important point.

I suggest this isn’t about the actual business of Remain or Leave. Or at least not very much. Why would the managers of your destiny care too much about that? The same financial systems control the US and the EU and most of the rest of the world. Doesn’t matter much to them which sheep pen we end up in. They own them all.

I suggest the Remain/Leave crisis, like most other crises, real or fake, is important to the PTB primarily for how it can be used to shape public opinion and re-position that Overton Window.

One major purpose of Remain/Leave seems to be to legitimise as a concept the rejection of democracy’. Just look around. Getting the masses to approve their own disenfranchisement is currently being promoted millimeter by millimeter, hashtag by hashtag, and the Leave/Remain ‘controversy’ is a stalking horse.

After all we can’t let democracy be threatened by the wrong kind of voting can we? With all these far-right antisemitic extremist white-supremacist Russians around, maybe we should just accept an ’emergency’ government in the national interest, because there’s too much ‘influence’ for voting to be legitimate any more.

And mad as it sounds some people seem to be buying it.

They proclaim Brexit wasn’t actually a vote at all, because…well, the reasons are vague. Not because of vote-rigging or anything quantifiable like that, but because of excessive influence’ from certain parties, or because the victors weren’t honest enough with the electorate, who thus were not making an ‘informed’ vote.

Because obviously all previous REAL votes involved absolutely no undue ‘influence’, lies or funding.

Hashtags #saveourdemocracy spawned from the same forces striving to destroy it. Meanwhile in the wrestling ring the music plays and BoJo faces off against appointed media heroes while we hiss and boo and cheer by turns. Heel and Face. Part of the game. Watch and smile.

Your endorsement of the reality of the ‘fight’ is what they need from you. Decline to give it. And please be vigilant.

Elementor
Elementor

Are you the actual Catte Black?

crank
crank

I mostly agree.

Because obviously all previous REAL votes involved absolutely no undue ‘influence’, lies or funding.

I guess that the ‘direct democracy’ of a referendum and the long term consequences of the result arguably does put it into a slightly different category to those of parliamentary votes.

Lucien
Lucien

This is the point, Catte. You have expressed what I have been thinking. Increasingly the political world seems indistinguishable from soap operas and TV dramas. Just distractions and narratives for people to gossip about at work and in the pub. Nothing real or actual in them. Meanwhile the work of herding us into serfdom goes on.

Kathy
Kathy

On top of the debacle of what is and isn’t democracy. The whole Brexit issue has enabled the continuation of austerity and the seesawing of the pound. Enabling the super rich to get even more super rich. Meanwhile down on ground level the divide and rule is working a treat. In or out, Leave or remain, Hard or soft, Deal or no deal. its the distraction of dreams and false promises. Families and friends have been divided so easily by this. How the people fell for it and allowed it to dominate over all the dreadful things the Tories have been doing, I don’t know.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle

‘One major purpose of Remain/Leave seems to be to legitimise as a concept the rejection of democracy’.’ – we don’t really live in a democracy for reasons you highlight in your opening salvo, i.e. ‘The same financial systems control the US and the EU and most of the rest of the world. Doesn’t matter much to them which sheep pen we end up in. They own them all.’

While the EU and USA are interlinked I fear the EU slightly less than I fear the USA – and once out of the EU we can certainly give up any pretence that Britain is anything other than a plaything for corporate America.

British politicians have already been co-opted. So has our media – this began decades ago escalating dramatically after 2008.

10 years of austerity tells you all you need to know about where the Overton window lies while the final and most important symbol of Britains post-war aspirations (the NHS) is about to be sold off.

Cancer patients are expected to work til they drop (rather than being entitled to benefits) and its only a matter of time before pensions are beyond the reach of people under the age of 70, then 75 – after that who knows, maybe even older.

So, yes, we can be vigilant or we may squabble over the post-Brexit fall-out – but either way median income families are facing dark times since any threat to the kind of crypto-fascism embodied by the mega-corporations and banks, no matter how benign that threat may be can expect to receive the Corbyn or the Assange treatment.

I have many doubts about the EU but a right wing sock-puppet like Johnson being manipulated by sinister neocon forces is the worst of two admittedly problematic options.

This is where we are at today as I see it.

mark
mark

This is plausible, but only if you actually believe in our mythological “democracy.”

Catte Black
Catte Black

Absolutist cynicism isn’t helpful.Let’s acknowledge that we currently at least have a consensus that universal suffrage and regular elections are essentials for civilization. It’s an ideal that requires at least lip service from our betters. They have to pretend to adhere to it, and we are at least given a facsimile of choice over who governs us.

It’s clear there are powerful moves afoot to crowbar us away from even this ideal of suffrage. We’re being urged to believe that higher forms of ‘democracy’ don’t need expression through the vote and are even hindered by it.

Once this idea takes collective hold – and it’s creeping that way – we’ll enter a new dark age far worse than the one we’re currently in.

crank
crank

Why is a ‘facsimile of choice’ preferable to widespread agreement that we have no meaningful choice (through ‘democratic means’ at least) ?
I am not confident that there is a consensus that ‘universal sufferage and regular elections are essentials for civilization’. Cuba ?
I think that ‘democracy’ as it’s widely understood is a development of the fossil fuel age. The humongous surplus of wealth.
This though is coming to an end, and power elites need to try and hold onto their positions (using an increasingly authoritarian state). The future will be very unpopular. ‘Democracy’ needs to be wound in.
I think that Brexit is just one manifestation of this – the early stages of shrinkage back into a national polity and ideas that we thought we’d seen the back of. Imagine a political party which offered a realistic vision of the future ;”Vote for us, we will give you austerity, lower living standards, shorter life spans, harder physical work” etc. Who would ‘choose’ them?
If democracy is an illusion then it is one founded on another illusion : that our complex and wealthy society is a product solely of human ingenuity and progress rather than a massive input of basically free energy which is both running out and killing the biosphere.

Editor
Admin
Editor

Democracy is a development of the fossil fuel age?

Ergo end universal suffrage and save the planet?

Nice synthesis of two major media memes of our time. If the corporatocracy can persuade people to buy that one AND the Green New Deal they’ll have that Brave New World of voluntary serfs they clearly want.

crank
crank

Fucks sake, I’m not advocating it. You read an analysis as if a manifesto.
There is though a certain inevitability to the situation once you get your head round the hard science of energy depletion. I don’t read discussion of the social and economic impacts of declining fossil fuels hardly anywhere, so to call it a ‘major media meme’ is misleading.
The GND agenda is being driven by the slow-down in growth in the real economy – a consequence of net energy decline, so I agree with Morningstar that it is essentially about trying to ‘save or extend capitalism’.
We can’t though, ultimately save our civilisation. They always come to an end.

crank
crank

Or, let’s have it the other way :
We create a political movement to extend democracy, redistribute wealth, clean up the pollution, sort out the social problems, stop species extinciton and the rest of it.
The economy is in constant danger of tanking around the world because the monetary system is built on escalating debt and the hard limits to growth have forced us to print money just to stop it all imploding.
Let’s just imagine that we somehow disempower all the financial oligarchs and wipe the debts, formulate a new sane zero growth model for the economy. Pretty far fetched, but let’s imagine.
Now we have 7 going on 8 billion people who are mostly reliant on fossil fuels for their food, water, shelter, clothing, just about everything. There is not another source of energy that can step in. If you think wind and solar, or nuclear you have not read enough about biophysical economics.
Even if you believe that AGW has been hyped out of all proportion for political aims, or even if you think it is not a threat at all, there is still the issue of depletion. All the easy oil has gone. We are getting less back for our efforts. This will go on until someone re-writes physics and finds a way to produce energy from unicorn shit.
Can anyone think of a ‘democratic’ way of dealing with this situation (and no that is NOT a wish for less democracy ) ? What are you going to offer the average punter to get them to support your movement ? Lies ? (-like all the parties in parliament now)

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle

‘we’ll enter a new dark age far worse than the one we’re currently in.’ – we are already there, this was the moral of 9/11.

9/11 proved there is literally nothing, and I mean nothing the public cannot be persuaded to believe once certain buttons are pressed, such as t’evil terrorists threatning ‘our way of life’.

The children of 9/11 include a presidential choice between 2 grotesque psychos, in other words no choice at all.

A campaign engineered by the MSM which gave a platform for racists to call one of Britains few non-racist MPs a racist. Before that he was labelled a spy, an IRA sympathiser, and a friend of the terrorists.

And of course the torture of a journalist by powerful nations (for revealing war crimes) while the media first defamed, sneered, and lied about it, before finally pretending nothing untoward was happening after being called out by the UN rapporteur on torture, Nils Melzer.

The powers that be realise they cannot take away the vote (for now) but they can at least control the process (through their instruments in the media) to the extent that the choice we face in real terms is no more than different shades of neoliberalism, except for ideologies to the right of it.
Socialism is of course dead in the USA and a similar project to denigrate it in the UK is reaching the end-game.
BTL on the Guardian, for example any mention of socialism is guanateed to be met with knee-jerk references to;
*Corbyn
*Venezuela
*Stalin
*China
But never the NHS.

Rome burns and one of the more depressing strands of commentary (BTL) on Off-G has been the attack on the only MP in living memory who might offer a slightly less depressing world view.
But becuse he cannot successfully oppose all of the powerful forces that make the world such an economically divided and violent place he is been deemed an abject failure.

At the same time it is galling when, in these dangerous times, commentators are endorsing voters who do not seem to understand that their political choices have significant implications for their fellow citizens – by all means chose differently (because you believe in something) but not because you are too fucking clueless to understand what you are voting for.
Put another way – if the vote carries no intellectual responsibility then its high time the franchise was extended to babies. I know you (Catte) have not suggested this but others have.

In the face of such a reality isn’t cynicism the only logical position to take?

PSJ
PSJ

A sidebar issue — but how can we already be in a dark age worse than the one we’re in?

Sometimes hyperbole gets away from us – 🙂

Anticitizen one
Anticitizen one

A very powerful comment, the tip toe to totalitarianism.

mark
mark

Maybe it would be better if they just took off the mask and actually did away with elections. It would remove the fig leaf of respectability from what we have now.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi

As one old enough to remember when Saturday afternoon wrestling was allowed on the telly, this is the perfect analogy.
We should strive not to be the little old lady so enraged that she makes her way to the front of the crowd to give one of the beefy wrestlers a good handbagging.
If you find yourself feeling that way, you are watching too closely and are being manipulated.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle

The big difference is that while we can laugh at, perhaps even feel superior to the little old lady trying to drop-kick Mick McManus we have no such luxury as spectators while (in a supposedly rich country) so many children go hungry, families are swamped by debt, containers are the new homes or when people with severe illnesses waste away because they are denied benefits.

I saw on the internet the other day that austerity apologist Jo Swinson made an expenses claim for tooth floss and eye liner.

I would vote for violent pensioners or Mick McManus before I’d vote for people like that.

I might even prefer exploding European bureaucrats.
https://giphy.com/gifs/mr-gif-uvzvoT4xS9ygw

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

It is correct that the whole ‘EU making our laws’, ‘Sovereignty’, EU immigrants’ etc issues are all emotional hot-button pushes. And boy hasn’t the whole country been pushed into a nervous breakdown because people do react!

British parliamentry democracy has always been about a control of the ‘democratic’ process – a field in Old Sarum used to have an MP at one time.

Universal Suffrage has always been a hard won endeavour. Which has increasingly become controlled by getting people to stop using their meagre vote on the one hand while getting control of the candidates on the other. So most of the time who ever gets in they still dance to the same piper.

We can’t ever forget that historical progress for rights has always been a story of slaves throwing off the slave owners.

The rest is just how the slave owners try to stop losing their ‘god given’ superiority. Including the left right divide and any number of full spectrum attacks on the slaves psyche. Religion, Drugs, Sex … all the way to entertainment and News.

We must believe in the power of a law equally applied. They twist that or ignore it by controlling judges and the like. We cannot. We can protest and march and riot and continue the age old battle to preserve these gains and advance them relentlessly as our ancestors did.

That is only how things have get better for our future generations.

different frank
different frank
pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit

Thanks frank enjoyed this a lot – never seen it before, missed it first time round. Great cast, the actors seem to enjoying themselves – something, which in my experience indicates a quality production. This is the best thing I have seen Keith Allen do. Cheers
Also frank, thanks for pointing out the Dorset Eye, some powerful articles – especially in the international section. Particularly like the “I see you…. ” column – just read the epstein piece. Phew ! Blistering. Thanks.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

“The greatest argument FOR Brexit was a democratic one. Leave won the referendum, therefore had the democratic mandate.”

No Kit they didn’t win fairly – it was a stitch up and there is evidence as well as Cummings own admission – which he is not compelled to make at a select committee. Just as FB are not compelled to cooperate with what data, how many people , which areas and what adverts were used. – so NOT A DEMOCRATIC MANDATE just a CHEAT.

“the UK will simply not be allowed to leave the EU. ”

No Kit we are allowed to leave, A50 is the legal instrument for doing so.

For many years we were stopped from joining by DeGaulles vetos – why did we gatecrash in? You never consider that. I have posted a lot of the history on the previous thread which is ignored by the brexit posters – but it is a surprise that you do to. WE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE GIVING UP BY JOINING in 1971.

“Corbyn has long-since been manipulated into taking a pro-Remain position, even if he doesn’t call it that.”
Holy molly Kit – are you really calling him a liar? Are you ignoring their manifesto commitment? Are you completely ignoring the Labour iniatives that promise that a deal not based in Theresa’s red lines be offered alongside a remain option or even a option of a no deal in a confirmatory vote?

A few other points

We were told when the ref was happening and thereafter that we would retain plenty of the good stuff while ending the ‘freedom of movement ‘ because the EU immigration was the reason why most voted to leave. We would keep the good stuff like enviromental regulations and working protections and a level playing field for trade and tax evasion – NO ONE PROMISED A NO DEAL that threw out these babies with the bathwater.

So you know say that the prorogation, instead of guaranteeing the HARD BREXIT that the perpetrators of Leave always intended ensures no brexit at all!
That.. is not logical captain.

Prorogation is doing a lot worse than pushing through the hard brexit that the City always wanted, the Ancient City – not the financial services city (who are easily able to carry on selling insurances by simply setting up a headoffice in any EU country and DID so!

Prorogation is stopping a vonc – which the pretend remainers like Grieve/Soubry/the funny tingers and the crocodile teary Blairite rump and some actual tory non hard brexiteers were being manoeuvred into by the Labour move on Monday which has been swept aside by Thursday.

Prorogation is a lot more DANGEROUS – don’t forget The empires caesar general Bolton was briefing ‘his uk Cabinet’ only recently, they all had big smiles, what was discussed and agreed? Bolton is not an Ambassador or the State Department he is National Security – a private appointee, with dubious connections with adventurism in the ME and a proven liar about WMD. The cabinet is full of exactly the same types and the secretary is a complete bastard.

What is there to stop Bobo declaring war with Iran? Or somewhere else? There is no parliament to recall now?

What is there to scruitinise any amount of crap being rubberstamped?

Kit – i have never understood what exactly your reasons or motivations for being so anti EU membership are?

Hell even Corbyn campaigned tirelessly for Remain, even though he was deliberately kept away from the main stages by the Blairites trying to temove him from leadership, and he thougth the EU was only 7/10 good!

Chris
Chris

Came down here to write a reply to this bonkers article, only to find you had already written it for me! Thanks.

Estaugh
Estaugh

“WE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE GIVING UP BY JOINING in 1971.” Did we now?
Go see the document > Fco-30-1048 < to learn what we didn't know. You will see the same manipulations, mediatique, financial, and political; by the same cabal of the same political leaning as today. Truth is, we have been shafted; TPTSB are not letting go of power any time soon, and remain or leave we can expect deep sh*t from either the corporate EU, the Corporate UK or the Corporate US of A. Ps, UK is not a 'democracy', it is a "constitutional monarchy"and many of its constitutional LAWS have their origins in pre-Roman eras.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

“It does appear that if this country should go into the Common Market and sign the Treaty of Rome, it means that we will have taken a step which is irreversible. The sovereignty of these islands will thenceforward be limited. It will not be ours alone but will be shared with others.”

(10 May 1971, the Master of the Rolls, Lord Denning, gave judgement in the case of Blackburn v Attorney General)

——–
That is proof of what was known 50 years ago. As for FO/HO knowledge and reports here is a brexit site from a few years ago.
http://doortofreedom.uk/a-big-lie

‘the claim made by the Heath government in their White Paper of July 1971, that British entry into the Community would not involve any loss of essential national sovereignty, was a big lie.’

On the 11th June 1970, following a meeting of the Council of Ministers of the EEC two days before, the President of the Council Pierre Harmel issued an invitation to the United Kingdom to begin negotiations on the 30th June for our entry into the EEC. Despite a General Election on the 18th June, and the replacement of Wilson’s Labour Government was replaced by Heath’s Conservative Government, the negotiations began as scheduled on the 30th.

At the same meeting on the 8/9th June, the Council of Ministers approved the conclusions of Pierre Werner’s ‘Interim Report on the Establishment by Stages of Economic and Monetary Union’.2 The commissioning of the report had followed a decision taken at the Summit Conference at The Hague on 1/2nd December 1969 that ‘a plan in stages should be worked out during 1970 with a view to the creation of an economic and monetary union

The resolution was adopted officially by the Council and the Representatives of the Member States on 22 March 1971.

…there was now definite agreement on a transfer of economic policy-making, and parliamentary oversight of that policy-making, from the national to the Community level. The consequences for national economic sovereignty that had been foreseen by British civil servants in the event of the adoption of the Werner Plan, would now have to be faced.

Etc.
There is plenty there that shows exactly that it was all known and the same establishment City owned people who barged us into Europe are frog marching us out now, citing that what the EU planned to evolve into – did happen!

The hypocrisy, illusion and delusion about history is breathtaking.

A mass mesmerism. See?

mark
mark

Q. When is a democratic mandate not a democratic mandate?
A. When you don’t agree with the outcome.

It was apparently “stolen” by dodgy money, although Remain outspent Leave by more than 2-1. Or it was manipulated by the evil Putin, who was taking time off from rigging the US/ French/ German/ Italian/ Macedonian/ Hungarian elections. Or all the Leavers were “lying”, if you don’t accept their arguments. And of course the people who voted Leave were old, uneducated, bigoted and racist. So they don’t count. And anyway Farage wants to kill all the gays and flog off the NHS to a US hedge fund. And the Leave vote can be ignored if Brussels refuse to negotiate a sensible trade arrangement.

Britain was dragged into the EEC in 1973 on the whim of paedo Heath. It remained in in 1975 because of Project Fear Mark 1 and because Remain outspent Leave by more than 100-1.
At that time it may have made some kind of sense, half a dozen western European countries, not 28, including soon Albania, Macedonia, maybe even Turkey and North African countries. Cameron promised to “pave the way between Ankara and Brussels.” Then who knows, maybe Ukraine and Georgia. And now we have a federal superstate with its own army, unelected leaders, centrally controlled budgets and taxation and God knows what else. With its economy and banking system on the verge of collapse.

This is our last chance to escape from this monstrosity before it implodes. We’d better not blow it because of the fantasies of the Remoaners.

Tony
Tony

It’s very possible that Heath was blackmailed into rushing through our membership of the EEC without the referendum that such a change in our sovereignty required. The fact that Wilson’s subsequent government rushed through a referendum ‘after the event’ showed that something was legally amiss.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

“Britain was dragged into the EEC in 1973 on the whim of paedo Heath.”

Have you completely ignored the previous dozen years when the establishment was trying to barge into the nascent EU?

Also kindly explain who exactly forced Heath? Name that villain.

Catte Black
Catte Black

Did I miss where you explained what a ‘stitch up’ is in constitutional terms and how we quantify that as a rationale for disregarding the legitimacy of a popular vote?

You’ll agree that probably needs to be nailed down to avoid the obvious risks involved in this mode of thinking?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Sorry Catte i didn’t realise that was aimed at me – i just found it.

So – No I can’t answer your question as put. I must say i can’t exactly parse it –
Constitutional terms ? I am not a expert but i am led to believe we don’t have a written one never mind a traditional one.

I guess courts and judges are the ones we rely on to rule on a case by case basis.

Stitch up? – do you refer to how the deepstate / Crown / aristos / the ancient City drove us into the EU for their own ends? And are intent on reversing out without any encumbrances on their ability to lie, cheat and hide the wealth of their age old endeavours?

A legitimate popular vote shouldn’t be afraid of having itself confirmed. Just as bobo shouldn’t be able to claim a mandate that he hasn’t confirmed.

How else can we nail anything down except by going back to the people. The alternative is the loss of even that paltry democracy and a imposed government rubber stamped by the monarch – exactly like thailand.

gardenfiend
gardenfiend

And after that, you’ll presumably want to check the referendum referendum, and have a referendum referendum referendum. At what point do you accept the result? Do you make a rule that it’s just this referendum/democratic vote that gets a second vote, but not future ones, or some future ones will too, or ALL future votes? OR do you leave it a grey area and sort it out later? Who would lead the negotiation of this ethical minefield, one of the people currently negotiating Brexit? Could they guarantee a better overall outcome than we have currently?

Where would the buck stop with future democratic results?

The answer is, you don’t know. If you move these goal posts, you have no idea to what ends this precedent will be exploited in future.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

I accepted the first result and expected that we would end with some kind of Norway type deal or something but took away the 4 freedoms as promised by the brexiteers.

What they didn’t promise was a no-deal and WTO rules.

If people vote for a no-deal of course i’ll accept it.

Why you worried when you are certain that is what 17 million people want?

gardenfiend
gardenfiend

What you’re saying essentially is “what are you, chicken!?”. Such goading just avoids the question of why a second vote is a good idea.

Speculating on public opinion or quoting polls is entirely irrelevant, considering predictions were so inaccurate leading up to the result (either by error or consciously manipulated)

Many people were talking about leaving the EU one way or another, a no deal really isn’t much of a surprise to me. I think the last thing that many people wanted was a castrated Norway-style deal. Why is that preferable? Maybe you heard what you wanted to hear? Again, not really an argument for another vote.

Why doesn’t anyone think this no-deal scenario reflects at all badly on the EU? They are negotiating pretty bloood-thirstily for themselves and clearly don’t give a crap about how the UK public are affected. Yet they are defended and idealised. Why??

It has all the hallmarks of an abusive relationship.

The situation probably sucks balls, however I think we’ll all survive and I don’t think we’ll suffer a hundredth as much as other nations suffer at our hands. I also think it’s a massive distraction and ultimately it will make little difference what the result is. You see the EU as a nurturing benign place. I view its increasingly authoritarian globalist idealism, the itinerant labourer underclass it encourages, its support for fascist Ukraine and its love of enforcing austerity as deeply evil.

From an ethical standpoint, I believe the earth will benefit from a disempowered UK, with the more far-reaching benefit that leaving the EU will shake up the tired status quo. Greater democratic autonomy may help us to create a more self-governing, less globalist society one day (probably in many, many years). It will at the least provide one less diversion and excuse for our future politicians to hide behind.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Not just chicken – but chicken little.

Nowhere in your spin do you mention that it is the globalised racketeering and tax evasion which has operated out of the City for centuries that is the only beneficiary of a hard brexit.

I never claimed the EU is perfect.

But i do like its progress towards a level playing field.

Fuck the City just like they have the world.

gardenfiend
gardenfiend

‘Look at you… silly Chicken Little, getting spooked by a few nazis. The EU’s allowed to support a few nazis, Chicken Little, it’s not perfect. It’s not perfect, you know! Euromaidan was fine. A bit of fascist proxy-warring because Ukraine decided not to sign an EU agreement…. its just something to ignore. It’s not perfect, just like its attitude of pro-austerity isn’t perfect (which so many ‘Remainers’ openly criticise in the UK… so I guess austerity won’t be going anywhere anytime soon) but it’s not perfect, Chicken Little, its not perfect!! And if we leave, all our medications will evaporate overnight, they will! Poof, gone, and your family will die! And our NHS will implode (because apparently the EU gave us our NHS, or is it just that we’re happy to have it propped up by exploiting a migrant, borderless EU workforce of second-class citizens, while we sit back, Wall-E style, and virtue signal on facebook?). If we leave the EU Trump will basically run our country (although he currently determines every meaningful decision we make already)!! We need to break our democracy, Chicken Little! Break it so we can let people-who-know-best make our decisions from now on! You grab Lucy Goosey, let’s take to the streets to demand our democracy back from Bojo, so we can demand they undo this democratic decision (while detecting zero irony in the procedure whatsoever). Come on!!!’

I personally know which side if this ‘debate’ sounds more like Chicken Little, and, in case I failed to make this clear, I think it’s you! (Was that just tit-for-tat name calling, or did you honestly think I sound like Chicken Little? Have you read the story!?)

Ultimately, the choice for us was always the frying pan or the fire, it makes little difference exactly which sphere of financial elites we, the little people, are servicing more closely. They are all one and the same – the European Central Bank is an offshoot of the IMF (based in Washington DC). London is not going to morph into a monster (more Chicken Little stuff), it already IS a monster and its social and financial hegemony within the UK and the unrivalled arrogance and smugness of its inhabitants will continue unabated for years to come, I’m sure.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Ok lets focus on euromaidan first.

Why do you not mention the Atlantists from the state department under you know who sending their official Nuland in who said ‘fuck the EU’ and put the nazis in place? There is plenty of evidence to show that euromaidan was a US op.

Funny that Trump has just pulled $250 billion for the Ukraine. He realises that they should stop digging that hole – many obviously don’t.

gardenfiend
gardenfiend

I’m not arguing with any of that, it doesn’t in fact contradict anything I’ve said. It was clearly a US-inspired coup/move against Russia. And the EU were actively/obediently involved with it all,, supporting the new super-fascist government, as they Nazi-saluted on their merry way.

And people genuinely argue that the EU protects us from Nationalism… The only reason such people aren’t staggering hypocrites is that they don’t know, because the press doesn’t report it. It doesn’t absolve them from being blinkered however. Nor are people absolved from being blinkered now, by following the lead of the self-same corrupt press as they push the ‘remain’/’dismantle-the-democratic-process’ agenda.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

OK it seems as if I am in the crossfire here.

So to both you and admin give me an answer to the ‘fuck the eu’ & their ‘both in it together’ dichotomy.

Of course there are US backed interests within Europe but that does not explain ‘ fuck the eu’ does it?

Editor
Admin
Editor

You’re completely correct. ‘Fuck the EU’ completely negates the fact the EU & US have spent the last ten years or more pursuing virtually identical monetary and geopolitical goals, albeit for slightly divergent interest groups. This conversation has become silly.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Maybe silly maybe real. I will not respond any further. Peace.

gardenfiend
gardenfiend

The only ‘fuck the eu’ sentiment I subscribe to is the gentle and, probably undignified, descent of UK global influence that might follow Brexit. We have a small-man complex recently, and we’ve been trying to swing in the big arena with offerings such as the Skrypal charade. Less of that, more of a backwater, ex-empire in its dotage who most people ignore, doing our own thing without drawing too much attention, that would suit me fine. US influence/control, which will inevitably increase if we do leave (which I’m still skeptical will actually happen), might be slightly diluted across the Atlantic, giving us slightly more wiggle room. The UK population, ever so slightly more autonomous, may start to develop an appetite for it, and develop into a more democratically self-governing nation. Maybe Scotland will get its independence, and Ireland too, harmoniously.

Fuck the status quo, I say. Change, even for the worse, is preferable to the noxious atmosphere of stagnant corruption and pernicious, pervasive, institutionalised, cowardly evil we pump out.

Perhaps if Corbyn had come along post-Brexit he might have stood more of a chance. The liberal-fascist, Blairite, pro-EU political class, who were ultimately his undoing, could well have had less sway.

Editor
Admin
Editor

Of course the US was involved in the Maidan coup. But so was the EU.

In fact the EU kicked the whole thing off with its demands for either/or decisions from Ukraine. And the EU flag and EU officials were stage centre of the psyop. Up to and including nurturing Nazis.

It’s doing the same thing again right now in Serbia. Look forward to a color revolution there soon, in concert with the US State Dept. The EU and US almost always speak with one voice in matters of regime change and international debt slavery.

The idea of some binary between the EU and US is pure propaganda. At most they represent different interest groups inside the same financial and military mobster class.

Elementor
Elementor

Corbyn has always been and is now so far as we know anti-EU. You seem like a true ideologue over this, making the most sweeping claims and not even pausing to prove any of them before making more.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

Elementor,

LIAR.

Admin
Admin
Admin

Corbyn voted against UK joining EC in 1975. He is well know as a longterm Euroskeptic.

Don’t call other commenters liars without at least citing a reason, and especially don’t do it when you yourself are being economical with the truth.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Many people voted against being drummed into the EC in the 70’s. after 50 years people are allowed to be pragmatic and change their mind?

Corbyn became MP in 83, so he wasn’t even in Parliament at that vote!

Wilson stayed NEUTRAL. He allowed his cabinet a free vote.

Corbyn CAMPAIGNED vigorously for REMAIN in 2016 – why didn’t he stay neutral?
That is the LIE – that he wanted LEAVE and didn’t even remain neutral! He clearly stated he didn’t think the EU was perfect but that does not mean he felt the same as in the early 70’s.
So:

“Corbyn has always been and is now so far as we know anti-EU.”

Is a mendacious and unproved statement- it is oft repeated.

I have posted proof of his campaigning and that the Blairite Johnson who was in charge of the Labour Remain campaign kept JC away from the msm as they tried to dislodge him with the chickencoup planned months previously.

We are not in parliament and i am allowed to call a lie a lie. I have not seen a response from the original poster about their statement and with respect your claim that he is well known for being a eurosceptic is not proof that his position in the referendum was the opposite to that. Is it?

I’m happy to post the proof of Corbyns campaigning in the referendum if anyone still doesn’t believe he was for REMAIN in 2016 not nearly half a century ago!

It has been an interesting thread.

Admin
Admin
Admin

What is your source for Corbyn campaigning for Remain in 2016?

crank
crank

Here’s a source:
Corbyn’s speech 9in full) April 2016 –
https://labourlist.org/2016/04/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-voting-to-stay-corbyns-full-speech-on-the-eu/

The Labour Party is overwhelmingly for staying in because we believe the European Union has brought: investment, jobs and protection for workers, consumers and the environment, and offers the best chance of meeting the challenges we face in the 21st century. Labour is convinced that a vote to remain is in the best interests of the people of this country.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Corbyn and brexit

Article by a professor in the Guardian that disproved Corbyns ‘failure’ to campaign effectively in the referendum within weeks
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/04/evidence-blame-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-remain-labour-conservative

Mainly its what and who the media chose to cover -“The most frequently reported Labour politician was Jeremy Corbyn (7th). Only ten Labour politicians made the top thirty. They account for 15% of the total number of appearances in the top thirty.”
https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-referendum/uk-news-coverage-2016-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/
Worth looking at the whole set of academic studies there.

Here’s an article looking at the whole woeful ‘Remain’ campaign referencing the above analysis
https://www.redpepper.org.uk/brexit-clearly-not-jeremy-corbyns-fault/

Here is an academic take on Labour and brexit – no blame on Corbyn, but plenty on the Blairites
http://www.referendumanalysis.eu/eu-referendum-analysis-2016/section-6-parties/the-immigration-debate-labour-versus-leave-in-the-battle-to-win-public-trust/

That is one of a load of articles by many academics on Brexit as an overall and unbiased take
http://www.referendumanalysis.eu/

On the overall media bias and strategy on the current labour leadership a quick overview
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/07/jeremy-corbyn-media-coup-bbc-labour

Here is Deputy Leader Watson lining up the post brexit Coup too
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/10/tom-watson-the-canny-peacemaker-combatting-conspiracy-theorists

Corbyn was only allowed one TV debate
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/02/eu-referendum-tv-debates-when-where-watch-them

And here is what he said in that debate – the clear position of being in better then out. Nuanced and sensible – of course it got ignored because of Warsi’s change of heart and Jo Cox murder
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/20/eu-referendum-live-warsi-leave-parliament-recalled-jo-cox

The nearest the Guardian got to the facts of the brexit campaign before the referendum – as they started to panic, but they were still lining up the coup against Corbyn on the 24th June regardless of the result
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/10/people-are-still-confused-on-brexit-and-the-campaign-isnt-helping

And finally a bit of coverage of Corbyn campaigning in Scotland for remain, while the rebel PLP still sniping at him, note the coverage given to brexiters
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/11/corbyn-urges-voters-in-scotland-to-show-solidarity-with-people-across-eu

And the ‘smoking gun’ that Corbyn was not in charge of the Labour IN campaign and kept away from high profile mainstream media from the horses mouth himself
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/sadiq-khan-boris-johnson-eu-referendum-debate-wembley-arena

“Jeremy Corbyn would not be taking part either, Alan Johnson said, because he had advised the Labour leader to only take part in events that have the same gravitas as the ones at which the prime minister appears.
“We have to be very careful we don’t set a precedent,” Johnson said while campaigning in Birmingham on Friday. “In general elections, whatever the prime minister does, the leader of the opposition does, and that’s going to be the same in this as well.”

He actually warned Corbyn to keep away from Wembley!

“Labour remain campaign boss, Alan Johnson”
“…And my advice to him has been don’t go anywhere near that. Sadiq Khan for the Labour party will be doing the Wembley one.”

Maybe if had been allowed the media coverage then he may have got even more then 69% of the 2015 labour voters to vote remain!
https://www.politico.eu/article/graphics-how-the-uk-voted-eu-referendum-brexit-demographics-age-education-party-london-final-results/

The Huff post had this take on the overall anti-Corbyn campaign
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11048424
The coup launched by the trigger of the excuse of the brexit result was known about for months previously
http://uk.businessinsider.com/there-will-be-a-coup-against-jeremy-corbyn-2016-3

Is that enough?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

I have replied. It is awaiting moderation. I assume it is because of multiple links. Let’s see.

Tony
Tony

You do love ramming your nonsense down peoples’ throats, don’t you? Not surprising that George Galloway spurned your “help”.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Tony what are you on about? When did i mention GG?

You are just fabricating now. Must be getting overwrought.

I demand a retraction and apology or i will register a complaint!

ZigZag Wanderer
ZigZag Wanderer

“WE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE GIVING UP BY JOINING in 1971.” ….. Please stop. My sides are hurting.

JPH
JPH

You are short of memory or very selective in omitting the EU parliament results so clearly confirming the Brexit mandate:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48403131

V Majithia
V Majithia

No JPH et al, the EU elections did NOT confirm the referendum mandate –
a. Because it was not a referendum based on individual votes.
b. The total votes cast for The Fart Age party was a massive , less than

FIVE MILLION TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND.

What happened to the other 12 MILLION???

lol – like they say you can’t fool all of the people ALL of the time.

different frank
different frank

The EU Referendum!

nevermind

Just to think that millions did not have a vote, had their futures decided by such well educated, politically apt characters. End off the EU indeed, who wants to even argue with such tabloidal mindset?

mark
mark

Obviously only Superior Beings like yourself should be allowed to vote and take any important decisions.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle

It’s not unreasonable to express concern when a binary choice, set up by libertarians, riding the crest of an anti-immigration wave, taps into the base instincts of a misinformed electorate who were conned by slogans such as ‘taking back control’.

We hear time and time again why people don’t like the EU (and there are plenty of good reasons not to like it) but what we never hear is what benefits leaving will confer on median income families, or why a bad deal, or more likely no-deal is in the national interest.

For a start it is ludicrous to suggest Britain will somehow become more ‘democratic’ – it won’t, that ship sailed 40 years ago.
Lets take it as read that Corbyn won’t win, especially given the influence of the MSM and pro-Israel lobby in the Labour party so that leaves the alternatives: Johnson, Swinson, Farage, or the Tingers ie pro-corporation lackeys indifferent to the many externalities of austerity.
It’s texactly he same non-choice US voters had between Trump and Hillary: that’s like offereing someone the choice between terminal cancer or the plague.

So if changing one corrupt system for another is the best you can hope for it strikes me as odd that anyone should regard this as a particularly good thing, especially since all the economic projections suggest most people will be worse off (apart from a small minority who will probably benefit from the ensuing chaos) – maybe once the public have to pay for health care, or find pensions out of reach until they are 75 the penny will finally drop that they are little more than income streams for corporations who control virtually every aspect of public life.

If leaving the EU can’t address this primary injustice, and it won’t, then all that is left over are theoretical rather than actual gains – in fact the very sort of theoretical freedoms US citizens enjoy when they try to access health care, or higher education or if they try to protest about perptual war or sky-high homicide rates.

mark
mark

I know women who have voted for someone because “he’s got a nice smile”, or “nice eyes.”
Should they be deprived of their vote?

It amazes me that people can be so fanatically convinced of the nebulous merits of this loathsome organisation. They are impervious to any argument, like the groupies of some weird cult.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle

No tangible pros associated with Brexit then – so surely you can understand why not everyone agrees sacrificing things like universal health care because some voters feel they have no obligation to themselves or anyone else to understand what they are voting for, or how the consequences of a scheme hatched by Nigel and other right-wing ultras impacts on everyone else?

The mood in the country has festered ever since, not least because the vote was close and more importantly few of the profound divisions caused by it have come close to being healed.

The situation is not helped in my opinion when the pro-Brexit lobby much like yourself cannot seem to offer any measurable benefits – given billions have already been spent over the last few years surely by now the buds of a bright new future should be springing up as we edge ever closer to freeing our great nation from the yoke of our European overlords?

It may sound churlish questioning Boris – but shutting down parliament for the longest period in living memory during a pivotal period in negotiations does not bode well for the exciting new form of democracy we have all been promised.

And when half the cabinet are on record as saying ‘no-deal’ would be economic suicide then fall silent when Boris proposes just that it was bound to end in a petition with over 1,000,000 signatures against proroguing parliament not to mention spontaneous protests across many cities – of course all of that pales into insignificance when anti-immigration sentiments are harnessed as a political weapon then handed over to voters who are given a binary choice without attaching any of the further options such as leaving with a deal,or no-deal, or keeping the backstop, or abandoning it.

Admin
Admin
Admin

The UK had universal healthcare when it entered the EU, and the EU has in recent times sat back and allowed the NHS to be all but totally privatised.

What is your reason for believing the EU would save the NHS?

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle

Membership of the EU does guarantee the future of the NHS but leaving guarantees its demise, IMO.

Britain has few bargaining chips left given industry has been run down and assets once publicly owned have already been sold off (see James Meek, Private Island: why Britain now belongs to someone else – link below)

In other words there is not much left to batgain with so in order to gain any sort of traction when making new trades deals (post-EU) the £130 billion NHS budget is bound to be offered up as a sweetner.

This trigger will lead to full blown privatisation then health bills can be added to a tranche of other debts including unpaid tuition fees, or personal loans acquired to pay off unpaid credit card bills.

Lucien
Lucien

Membership of the EU does guarantee the future of the NHS but leaving guarantees its demise, IMO.

If the EU guarantees the future of the NHS, how come it’s been all but destroyed while we are in the EU? What did the EU do to stop the selloffs? Nothing is the answer.

Why then do you think it the EU will protect the NHS in the future when it did nothing to protect it in the past?

William
William

the EU will protect the NHS in the future when it did nothing to protect it in the past?

Maybe it did maybe it didn’t…but as we know the tories have always wanted to privatise it..in fact they already started a la Branson etc. However they know they can’t come flat out and do it wholesale without an excuse…brexit gives them that excuse

MLS
MLS

You talk as if privatization of the NHS was an accident! It was anything but. It was a Thatcherite and is now a neoliberal project and it’s right on course. It will be fully privatised in the next ten years, whether the UK is in or out of the EU.

Your idea of the UK government being forced against their will to privatize the NHS just to make ends meet is the kind of alternative reality politics we get in the MSM

William
William

Because the excuse will be used that as we need a trade deal ..and brexit means we don’t have one with the eu ..we’ll need to use the nhs as a bargaining chip in negotiations with the USA..trump even let the cat out of the bag, the dopey git, …but was very quickly shushed

mark
mark

The NHS was created before the EU existed.
It has been subjected to salami slicing privatisation for years.
This has got zilch to do with the EU.

There was a margin of 4%, or 7% in England. 53.5-46.5.
Long term we’re losing the Jocks and the Paddies anyway.
I don’t know of any politician who ever said, “Oh no, I only won by 52, 53%, with a margin of 4-7%, that’s obviously not enough, I can’t possibly accept I’ve won on that basis.”
They scrape in on 30% and think it’s the 2nd coming of Christ.

Benefits?
Not paying £50 million a day in tribute to this loathsome organisation, to add to the £500 billion, £500,000,000,000, we already have.
Not having to pay for corrupt, failed, clapped out and discredited politicians like Mandelson and Kinnock and their cronies swanning around Brussels claiming to be great statesmen.
To escape the clutches of this corrupt, arrogant, anti democratic, globalist, neoliberal, protectionist racket once and for all.
Genuine free(er) trade rather than this rigged system.
Greater control of the country. Not having to accept hundreds of thousands of rapefugees and gimmegrants at the dictate of Brussels whenever Mama Merkel decides to invite them all in.
Not having to accept every bizarre perverted legal ruling that is handed down.
There are many others.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle

There is no such thing as ‘free trade’ – just an array of different tariffs (the strength of which are contingent on bargaining power).

Greater control is another illusion – citizens will mean even less to US corporatocracy (or the City of London) than they do to EU bureaucrats.

And even if money is saved (by leaving) it certainly won’t benefit the likes of me and you – it will just be siphoned off to JRM enterprises, or some other predatory capitalist.

Sometimes I want to believe Britain can stand alone but then I look at the likes of Patel, Johnson, Raab, Rudd, McVey, IDS, Gav’ Williamson, or the smirking Nigel Farage (in other words how far to the right Britain has moved) then I think – fuck that.

Tony
Tony

Oh dear…..the relentless remainer meme: thick-as-fuck racists conned by dark forces. Let’s at least give them credit, folks, they’re learning how to dress up their inane insults in posh clothes.

Capricornia Man
Capricornia Man

If there’s a reasonable Brexit deal and if Corbyn won a GE
( big ‘Ifs’) his declared policies for industrial revival and re-nationalisation of essential services would be possible, to the considerable benefit of millions of ordinary people. No PM could do that if the UK remains in the EU, because its neoliberal rules don’t allow it.

Elementor
Elementor

So, what’s the solution? Only Ubermenschen get to vote? or maybe we can reinstate a property qualification?

Jesus preserve us from ‘progressives’, they’re like Victorian missionaries among the natives.

Ingo
Ingo

MARK, after being confused for three years and not having a voice, listening was a painful laugh. I cant help it if nobody cares much about their Goverent an unfair disproportional voting system or the lies they are told, but its not democracy and I will not have politically inept oiks vote for my future. Not now or after this minority Brexshit. If that offends you and you have to make up some crap, pity on you.

Admin
Admin
Admin

Several commenters have asked those expressing this sentiment how they would impose this voting qualification. So far none have answered. Maybe you’d like to try? How would ‘oiks’ be excluded from the democratic process?

mark
mark

Perhaps they’d just exclude all non Guardian readers.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle

We are going round in circles – its not about qualifying the right of anyyone to vote rather recognising how and why the motives for the referendum were suspect (bascially a right-wing pissing contest), laden with anti-immigration undertones, while options were formulated in such a way as to avoid the all too apparent complications of what those choices might lead to: in other words the ballot was both flawed and politically motivated.

To quote the boffins: ‘The question assumes a binary choice — Remain or Leave the EU — while voting theory warns that allowing only two options can easily be a misleading representation of the real choice. When the true situation is more complex, and especially if it is one that arouses strong passions, then reducing the question to a binary one might suggest a political motivation. As a result of the present process, we actually don’t know how people would have voted when they had been offered the true options.’

In the case of Brexit, the hidden complexity concerned:
— Leave, and adopt an EFTA or WTO framework?
— Leave, while the UK remains intact or while it splits up?
— Remain, in what manner?

If interested here is the report and the ballot paper
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/05/17/the-brexit-referendum-question-was-flawed-in-its-design/

Roland Spansky
Roland Spansky

With respect that reads like a lot of Guardianista bunk aimed at hiding the bare fact of delegitimizing democracy.

Binary choices delegitimize a ballot? Since the f**k when?

And my favorite – ‘the ballot was politically motivated’!??

LOL!!!! Man, THAT must have been a first.

Every argument you adduce is an argument against every vote ever taken and every vote that ever could be taken.

Let’s only have votes of multiple choices where every choice is carefully nuanced and totally free of political motivation!

Un frickin real.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle

One of the school boy jokes that used to go round (before PC) was;

“If you had a queer on your back would leave him there or would you toss him off”

Can you see why a binary choice does not always allow a full range of possible answers?

BTW, apologies if that sounds too Guardianista for you.

mark
mark

The reason the referendum was held in the first place was because the political establishment was unable to resolve the issue by itself – not just the Tories.

The EU never enjoyed much popularity and was barely tolerated at best. Actual experience of EU membership reinforced this strongly. The issue couldn’t be ignored any longer. 4 million voted for Farage. It was hoped that the referendum would finally settle the issue one way or the other.

It didn’t – because the losing side never accepted the result and worked tirelessly to delegitimise it and sabotage it. It could have done – I think if it had gone the other way, most Leavers would have reluctantly accepted the result.

William
William

I think if it had gone the other way, most Leavers would have reluctantly accepted the result.

…and yet they’ve not stopped whinging about it since 1975?

mark
mark

The EEC was accepted, or maybe grudgingly tolerated for many years, until it morphed into the EU monstrosity of 28 countries, many of them basically third world failed states, with its abortion of a monopoly money currency. If it had remained a slightly enlarged EEC, the issue would not have arisen at all.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

It was us the UK that encouraged a full EU membership for the ex-soviet states – to further disrupt the steady development of the ever closer union.

It is absurd to say the EC changed into the EU and we didn’t know that was the plan all along and we had not only joined but promised to help it happen.

mark
mark

I could produce similar individuals voting to remain because if we don’t, the Germans will invade Poland tomorrow. Or Putin will murder us all in our beds. Or we’ll never be able to go abroad on holiday again. Or my mobile phone will never work again.

Initially I wasn’t exactly sure how to vote. But what decided it for me was some personal experience. I used to do some work with a lot of council officials, people like housing officers and environmental health. And I met the Returning Officer. I asked him out of interest who the Common Market MP, or MEP was. He didn’t have a clue, no idea. I asked two reporters I knew from the local paper. They’d never heard of him/her either. I asked a local Labour councillor I knew. “Ain’t got a clue, mate.” Whoever it was, he could jump up and bite you and you wouldn’t know who he was.

And we’re supposed to just accept that……..and pay £50 million a day for the privilege?
Do you know who your Common Market MP is?
Would one person in ten thousand???
This is worse than the pre 1832 rotten boroughs.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin

You are sort of correct to be sarcastic about the gravy train which was mocked in the 80’s and the mafia olive oil scams. Don’t forget the wine lakes and butter mountains. And also don’t forget how the establishment hard brexiteers have been filling their boots on the various land scams – inclunding the aristos and their hired hands like Dacre.

But along with these weeds there are the increasing greater cross border standards applied to ALL of the members – which allows for a continent wide implementation- and a leveller playing field.

The weeds can be culled.

As for the MEP’s their powers compared to the other executive bodies aren’t equal. They work in blocks rather then individual representatives. Much could also be streamlined and no doubt will by agreement.

mark
mark

The EU is no more capable of reforming itself than the old USSR.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

The EU has been moving to aver closer union were sinc we Joined with it it. Wots the sitprise. Quitters?

MrBump
MrBump

The old USSR did ‘reform’ into european states. Oh I see.

different frank
different frank

No one noticed that this is clearly a spoof?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Oh frank i have been posting facts only.

UreKismet
UreKismet

This is not my bailiwick – whether or not a community decides to leave the EU is really up to them, but my concern is that when I read what those from the community are saying it seems like all the really vehement leavers & remainers have forced a situation where only one of two options is permissible and insufficient thought is given who/how/where as long at it is ASAP.

Easily the saddest part of this entire business is observing that otherwise intelligent decent englanders have been so overwhelmed by the incessant noise rising to hysteria from all sides, that they too believe that it is the meat not the motion; which is to say they have become so entrenched in the binary decision is it POV, that they too have decided that “LEAVE fer gawds sake! or “REMAIN goddammit!” is far more important than the means of staying or going – much less the quality of the humans leading during that act.

Obviously the types leading the government at the time brexit is/is not enacted, are important variables – as important as the choice itself.

Not only will the government be deciding what will change if england leaves the EU, they will also have to decide who comprises the target cohort, those who the government is trying to help via the way the decision is implemented.
Here, there and everywhere on the net I stumble across self professed lefties or humanists who have allowed themselves to become convinced that a brexit no matter what is a acceptable call.

Even when enacted by a government led by a scumbag famous for his total lack of interest in the welfare of those fellow country-persons who are neither aristos nor billionaires, some believe it is preferable to the possibility of remaining thanks to a government led by a chap whose sole purpose as a politician is to improve the lot of all englanders.

Yeah a touch of hyperbole perhaps – but not a heap of it.

How does such nonsense thrive? Do whichever you prefer, englanders, but whichever is preferred will be even more toxic than what went before if it is instigated by a psychically damaged sort of a human, one who cannot get out of his own way when it comes to sleazing up to those he considers his betters. Meanwhile he hawks and dribbles phlegm on the bulk of us, whom he considers beneath him.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi

Ruth Davidson quits, pleads belly.
Typical spineless Tory.

Andy
Andy

I’m beginning to think Brexit is a smokescreen and big larks, merely a tool to raise and lower the value of the pound and extract billions for those who know how to manipulate the markets. Johnson’s attempting to yoyo the pound at a greater degree for as long as possible.

Andy
TheThinker
TheThinker

Thanks for the link. While I was reading it, I kept thinking about Soros and the way he shorted the BoE back in 2002 (and sure as hell, he gets a mention near to the end) I then thought back to where I read about part of the EU more integration process, was that the UK would be broken up into regions/districts and unelected Mayors installed (Parliament of Mayors) to run each region. What with Sturgeon yelling for another Scottish Ref and the hoo haa in Ireland ? Is this going to play out?

Is it all just part of the even longer game. Is the whole thing a ruse to get the more competitive countries into the 2 tier Europe, to de-value the currency in order to bring about growth, where it has stagnated? Whilst simultaneously, the robber barons are manipulating economies and making huge profits off the deceit?

I don’t know, the mind boggles at it all!

Mucho
Mucho

Brexit is one of two things – an exercise in divide and rule and mindfuckery with long game/short game benefits to exploit, such as those quoted ie market manipulation for those in the know; or Brexit is a mechanism by which the USA and Israel will divvy up the UK’s future to their liking, purely for the benefit of our controllers, with UK establishment figures getting their piece of the pie as the corporate gangbang rolls through town. The City Of London will be a major player in this process, working in their own interest. It’s the big club doing what it does, screwing populations for its own benefit. It’s one or the other. Any control which is taken back will quickly be seized and directed in whatever direction they want, with zero regard for the local population. Either that or they have no intention of leaving.

We need to ask the border people what they are being told, what changes are being implemented, is there any real action at the borders? That may be a clueas to their real intentions. No action at the border, no intention of leaving. Action and changes being seen, well maybe they are serious. We still don;t know for sure. We cannot believe a word they say, but they may well be telling the truth when they say they are gonna crash out on Halloween.

Western governments are controlled by hidden hands, and what they are really up to we never really know, but what we can say with great certainty is that the hidden powers work consistently against the interests of the common man and screwing with us is like a fun game for them.

We are Ted, the establishment is Mary

ANDREW CLEMENTS
ANDREW CLEMENTS

“Brexit is one of two things – an exercise in divide and rule and mindfuckery with long game/short game benefits to exploit ” Probably not short of the mark a psyop to put the proles in their place

Tony
Tony

The EU leadership has an open door policy toward Soros.

TFS
TFS

Oh, is the Brexit thingy still A THING?

Now if only I could think of some other things that were more of an issue………..

Shardlake
Shardlake

He has to be the worst prime minister since Theresa May. Boris Johnson is not dead yet, he probably has a long time to live and when he’s out of power, as he inevitably will be some day, he no doubt will be vilified by the press (because bad publicity sells newspapers) and the public at large; his actions today will be compared with the excesses of Mrs Thatcher and Mr Blair. The very people who are now backing him will turn on him in due course in the same manner that Mr Cameron is widely seen now, considered a weak prime minister and the architect of this nation’s troubles today. Both Mrs May’s and Mr Cameron’s Tory premierships will pale into insignificance when viewed against the actions of Mr Johnson and the monarch organisation will not come out of this affair smelling of roses either; indeed it could be a fillip to Republicanism, Scotland seceding from the United Kingdom and the reunification of the island of Ireland. I can visualise this nation being in for a very long period of discontent and even civil unrest, not that Mr Johnson will lose more than thirty seconds getting off to sleep at nights worrying about it all.

William
William

Every now and again that much maligned (on here) publication…The Guardian…does manage to carry a worthwhile story. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/29/the-air-conditioning-trap-how-cold-air-is-heating-the-world
Johnson and his shenanigans pales into insignificance when you understand the unalterable destructive force of capitalism and globalisation