264

Unhinged before the Fall: Boris Johnson, Parliament and Brexit

Binoy Kampmark

The Brexit no deal prospect is engendering an element of lunacy fast seeping into every pore of the British political establishment.  As with all steeped in such thinking, some of it made sense. Prime Minister Boris Johnson had been inspired by a mild dictatorial urge, seeking to suspend the UK parliament five weeks out from October 31. 

This has been described as nothing short of a coup, or, if you are the speaker of the House of Commons, John Bercow, a

constitutional outrage”.

Legal expertise was called upon to answer the question whether Johnson’s proroguing of parliament was, in fact, constitutional.  This was itself a tricky thing, given that the UK has a “political constitution” that resists being inked into written form.

To be British is supposedly to be reasonable, and codifying such convention suggests a fear that reason might be lost. 

As Professor Michael Gordon of the University of Liverpool explains, three avenues are open to evaluate the constitutionality of a government action in the system:

compatibility with the law, political convention and constitutional principle.

On the first point, it was near impossible to challenge Johnson.  For all the matters of convention, the monarch remains the figure who ultimately holds the power to prorogue parliament. 

And the argument here by the prime minister is that this is the penultimate step to announcing a fresh legislative agenda in the monarch’s speech on October 14.

As far as the second point was concerned, Gordon had to concede that the Queen would never have constituted herself as a “constitutional safeguard” to reject Johnson’s request. That would have done more than repudiate the long held convention on staying above politics and acting on the advice of the prime minister.

This only left the nebulous notion of “constitutional principles”: as the government draws support from the House of Commons, it must duly abide by the body if its wishes are out of step. 

As the House of Commons rejects the idea of a no deal Brexit, Johnson should have engaged parliament on the issue. Well, that’s the view of the pro-parliamentarians, and as the current prime minister has a very flexible set of values both personal and political, few should have been stunned by the latest antics in subverting parliamentary scrutiny.

Beyond the legal pecking, a swathe of reaction were in agreement with Bercow.  Novelist Philip Pullman went one further.

Britain best be “rid of him and his loathsome gang as soon and as finally as possible.” 

This had a certain whiff of a coup of its own, the sort of thing that Westminster systems have been vulnerable to in history.  (Australia offers an apt, if undistinguished example of the overthrow of Prime Minister Gough Whitlam in 1975, ably assisted by opposition leader Malcolm Fraser and then governor general John Kerr.)

The prorogation ploy was taken so seriously by the Financial Times that a humble suggestion was made lest Britain comprise his airy position as law-abiding obsessive and exemplar of order to the world.

If Mr. Johnson’s prorogation ploy succeeds, Britain will forfeit any right to lecture other countries on their democratic shortcomings.” 

(Hadn’t it already done so?) Imperially sounding, the FT suggested that Britain’s singular disposition lay in “constitutional arrangements” long bound by “conventions.”

Momentum, the Labour faction supporting Jeremy Corbyn, the man who would be usurper, was laying the ground [the tweet has since been deleted – ed.] for a challenge, albeit tumbling into the oxymoronic.

An unelected prime minister looks set to approach an unelected monarch to ask her if he can shut down parliament to force through a disastrous no deal Brexit.” 

The assessment?

Make no mistake – this is an establishment coup.

All fine, except that monarchs are known for being humanity’s unelected specimens, and that this coup was being countered with a proposal for a counter-coup. Messy be the conventions of the land.

For those long linked to Britain’s gradual and seemingly natural integration into European affairs, the move by Johnson was near criminal.  Hugh Grant, summoning up a certain primal rage, was furious. On Twitter, he launched a ferocious firebombing of Johnson’s position. 

Comedian and all round brain box Stephen Fry could not stomach it.

Unfortunately, such comments betray an old tendency in self-referential Britishness, a Britannia-rules-the-waves smugness.  The world admires, the world respects. But that world died some time ago, if, indeed, it ever existed. Britain made a pact for security and wealth with a Europe often reluctant to accept its suspicions and reservations. Both are now parting ways.

Far milder assessments have also been offered to hose down the Grant ire.  Johnson’s attempt to schedule a Queen’s speech for October 14 was seen in The Spectator, a magazine he once edited with carefree indifference, as “normal” and part of the operating processes of a new government.  At the very least, it would also “bring to an end one of the longest parliamentary sessions in history”.

The Queen was hardly going to refuse, stratified by, well, convention.  Had she done so, breaking the crust, and holding forth over the prime minister, there would been howls of a different sort.  The only conclusion to arise from this latest bit of chess play by Johnson is that, come October 31, Parliament will have a minimal a role to scrutinise the agreement, or non-agreement, as it might well be.

Dr. Binoy Kampmark was a Commonwealth Scholar at Selwyn College, Cambridge.  He lectures at RMIT University, Melbourne. Email: [email protected]

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TFS
TFS
Sep 4, 2019 12:38 PM

So, I was thinking of the Dodo lately, and in a similar vain…

Anyone seen the line by line breakdown and the legalese supporting the paying of the £39bn devorce bill, apart from the normal, ‘because we have to’?

I do like my Demoracy itemised and backed by legalese……..

Ken Kenn
Ken Kenn
Sep 2, 2019 2:01 PM

As long as the Queen says everything alright – that’s fine by me.

After all, I’m a democrat to my boots.

Only in the UK could people push that line with a straight face.

What does God say?- he appointed her.

So it is written.

Or not written?

Tsar Nicholas
Tsar Nicholas
Sep 2, 2019 9:41 PM
Reply to  Ken Kenn

The British people voted to leave, and Parliament has blocked the process. Parliament was going to go into recess anyway between September 13th and October 8th. What a tosser you are!

different frank
different frank
Sep 1, 2019 11:57 PM

Chris Rogers
Paid troll?
Discuss.

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 2, 2019 1:19 AM

talks mince- check
always moaning – check
can’t address issues not on his crib sheet – check
Frank, I can’t think of any better explanation – so grudgingly , this round to you. The grudge bit is only because the image of Syria’s burned out cities is part of the backdrop to all the lives being lived in the uk at this time. However fleeting this image is, I reckon it causes a fair bit of mental illness across society. I must admit I had some sort of mini- breakdown when I first saw pictures of Aleppo bombed out. So maybe he is another victim of the western war against Syria and isn’t in his right mind.

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 2, 2019 1:21 AM

you could even say “He is a pablomillerunit” boom boom

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 2, 2019 2:06 PM

To be honest, you ask persons to respond to your posts and then ‘slander’ claiming alternatives are not available to the questions you poise yourself – “THERE IS NO THIRD WAY” – and then continue to slag off and make crass accusations – plenty on these boards have crossed paths with me over many years, one reason I actually post under my actual identity is I have bugger all to hide or fear and persons can simply Google to see where I’m posting if I’m able to do so.

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 2, 2019 1:56 AM

he is not like Binra- who talked mince and never moaned

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 2, 2019 1:56 PM

I’d loved to get paid, thus far funds from the St Petersburg Bot Factory have thus far not materialised, but we live in hope of a cheque clearing.

Mucho
Mucho
Sep 3, 2019 11:47 AM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Maybe we always hear about Russian bots to deflect attention from the fact that large amounts of British taxpayers money is being used to fund armies of keyboard warriors here in the UK, whose job is to spread the lies and disinformation being constantly spewed out by the criminal British establishment, and hijack threads not to their liking

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 3, 2019 10:05 PM
Reply to  Mucho

All boils down to the manufacture of consent, Saturday’s protests were an example of that. That these protests can be turned on and off at will should cause alarm, as should the fact that many don’t even know they are being duped.

Maggie
Maggie
Dec 19, 2021 3:21 PM
Reply to  Mucho

Yes the 77th Brigade: Audience, Actor and Adversary Analysis  Information Activity and Outreach Counter-adversarial Information Activity Support to Partners Across Government  Collecting media content Disseminating Media…..  Monitoring the information environment   Evaluating the information environment Advising and training on Human Security and providing support to current operations Based in: Dennison Barracks, Hermitage, Thatcham, RG18 9TP In short they were created to make sure the people remain ignorant of what the Government has planned for us. Specifically they are there to demonise those designated ENEMIES, like Russia, China, and Iran. They an be spotted a mile off, on MSN there is a particularly odious cretin calling himself NACNUD.. duh – Duncan Smith. You know when you’ve hit the truth jackpot when he sticks to you like a limpet in an attempt to disrupt any thread you post on.. Their rhetoric is stuck in one groove only. Pretty much like Twhitty who has just been… Read more »

Molloy
Molloy
Sep 3, 2019 12:13 PM

….he’s very busy, is he not ? ! !

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 4, 2019 1:31 PM
Reply to  Molloy

Molloy, my grandad used to say ” …an empy vessel makes the most noise …” I never really knew what he meant

Doctortrinate
Doctortrinate
Sep 1, 2019 9:36 PM

I see the word “Unhinged” , then I see folk waving banners with the words “Defend Democracy” – So I think – but thats”Unhinged”….are they deluded ? – caught under that evil spell of “Democracy = Right”……when even waving a simple “This Is Wrong” message would’ve proclaimed their feelings amply enough….in fact , I’ve a few they could have had, though not my old favourite, used outside polling stations whenever there’s an election…. it’s well worn, but perfectly legible.

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Aug 31, 2019 7:46 PM

After several years struggling to understand the raft of issues associated with brexit, the last few days of discussion has allowed me to formulate it down to a ” two legs bad, four legs good” proposition.

option 1 brexit go with America
option 2 no brexit go with Europe
option 3 brexit go it truly alone

Option 3 seems a non-starter – with our dark colonial history trading could be complicated. I trust America less than Europe, so I have just realised I am remainer. I never voted in the referendum and never had an opinion until now – could someone help me out and point out the flaws in my reasoning.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 9:27 PM

Let me put it this way, an actual third way option does exist, one that does not involve Brussels or Washington, in order for this to happen, we have to dispense with the shackles of neoliberalism, which, as a socioeconomic orthodoxy is plastered all over the Lisbon Treaty – of course, this means exiting the shackles of our Treaties with the EU, instructing the USA we ain’t its bitch no more, and offering the UK electorate an alternative to the present economic madness, which means becoming radical with policies that help 90% of our electorate, rather than 5-10% as is presently the case. Of course, we can all continue on our merry way with the present status quo and sweet, meaningless platitudes espoused by Centrists as the ecosystem continues to be destroyed and multiple extinctions continue on land and in our oceans. Financialisation of everything necessary for human existence does… Read more »

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Aug 31, 2019 11:01 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Chris I don’t have your grasp of economics but I read third world literature widely- beginning with Chinua Achebe ” The Trouble with Nigeria ” which I read over thirty years ago. Though the colonised peoples treat individual Britons decently enough I can’t see that happening with a free and sovereign Brittania ruled by the SAME CLIQUE that colonised and administered and exploited a third of the world. You don’t explain how we free ourselves of America’s overwhelming influence. As for ” instructing the USA we ain’t its bitch no more ” you make that sound easy . Find me a politician with the spine or inclination to tell ” the USA we ain’t its bitch no more ” . Even if a large majority of Britons united and told the political establishment to tell America that “we ain’t its bitch no more ” you have only to look at… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 11:23 PM

As I’m no colonialist and don’t promote colonialism, or any other form of exploration, none too sure where you are actually coming from, except exhibiting a denialism at the carnage we are visiting upon the environment we live within and species we rely upon for our own survival.

We live on a finite planet, with a finite amount of natural resources, many of which have been exploited and are close to exhaustion, particularly those required to generate energy, given our entire modern civilisation relies upon huge amounts of energy, and that cheap supply is running out, how exactly do you propose society to continue?

We either change or die, I prefer orderly change, a change it seems many don’t want to make, in which case God help your own family.

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 1, 2019 12:15 AM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Chris I’m an orphan, brought up and abused in a local catholic orphanage – I don’t have any family. If I did have a family, I , and I guess most of the people I know would not use them as cheap emotional props to bolster non-existent arguments in internet forums. I am only guessing, but people seem to treat their families with a reverence that precludes deliberately cheapening them – but what do I know. Chris, GET WITH THE PROGRAM – everyone who is arsed already knows the world teeters on the brink, both environmentally and nuclear exchange wise, that is not the issue. Donald Trump doesn’t believe in climate change and he leads the biggest polluter / consumer nation, America. Leaving or staying in Europe has nothing to do with climate change. How dare you accuse me of ” exhibiting a denialism at the carnage we are visiting… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 1, 2019 10:56 AM

You have denied their are viable alternatives, none of which involve Washington or Brussels, which are overflowing with paid corporate lobbyists – where I presently reside in the South China sea I’ve witnessed the extinction of pink dolphins, unimaginable amounts of debris washed upon our shores hourly, palm oil spills, heavy fuel spills and our local fisheries full of toxic marine life poisoned by human activities. much of which cannot be eaten – this is in but one small spot that’s in a very busy shipping lane. On my journeys across Asia I’ve been in Singapore and Malaysia at the height of the forest burning season where you can hardly see more than 10 metres, been in Beijing where visibility has been virtually zero due to massive air pollution and witnessed dire poverty I never imagined, so, somewhere, one of the advanced industrial nations need to make a break with… Read more »

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 1, 2019 1:08 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Chris your a liar.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 1, 2019 3:55 PM

Excuse me, but are these not your words as typed by you whilst making a critique of my own opinions:
“THERE IS NO THIRD WAY.”

Paolo
Paolo
Sep 1, 2019 9:07 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

The interesting detail being that it was the UK that introduced neoliberalism to europe just as it introduced the migration crisis by starting the grotesque wave of regime change misadventures in the ME with Bush back in 2003 (thanks Tony).
Which poses the question…..is the UKs role as EU trojan horse one borne of design or of political ineptitude and arrogance?
Iraq, neoliberalism, Russophobia, PC culture, Saudis, Skripal etc etc…. its a long list !

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 1, 2019 10:19 PM
Reply to  Paolo

Paulo, At first glance, and because of the SEA (Single European Act), which Thatcher initially pushed, a case can be made that it was the UK that infected the EEC with neoliberalism, however, a closer examination of economic history, specifically with regards Jacques Delor’s tenure as French Finance Minister, efforts through-out the 1970s to establish an exchange rate mechanism, and the very fact that major central banks and associated supranational bodies (IMF) were already pushing monetary and fiscal policies closely correlated with neoliberalism, the simple fact is they were already infected – Bill Mitchell’s Blog covers most of this actual period. As far as the USA using the UK as a useful bridge or conduit in to influencing EEC policy, this would be a correct assessment, given, until DeGaulle’s death, France did not with wish to act as an adjutant to US foreign policy, that obstacle once removed allowed the… Read more »

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Sep 2, 2019 1:45 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

It is 5+1 eyes.

And we were trying to barge into the EC for at least a decade to piss in their tent from the inside.

We are being frogmarched out to keep pissing on it from outside.

It is all about the same age old class war.

It seems that skirmishes are actually being fought by the upper class even here at O-G – they must be worried.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 2, 2019 3:14 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

You are correct, further, a new post is available on The Lobster Magazine that reinforces the view that the UK was used as a bridgehead by the USA to influence Brussels, however, lets not get too carried away given most EU members states are already members of NATO and NATO is run for the benefit of the USA, which it was not originally set-up for but has certainly morphed into since the 60s.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Sep 2, 2019 5:05 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Yes ChrisR , there are typewritten memos going back to the 50’s which are explicit about why we went in. Infact ALL the arguments were thoroughly rehearsed at the time when the options were considered for the various Channel Islands. Seeing as you like the Lobster (haven’t seen it for a while) here is some more on what was happening before the last referendum and why people voted the way they did. We are reaching the denouement and the hard brexiteers are throwing themselves at the line. The first article is about how the real Labour socialist party was hollowed out and the panic of the neolibs at the Corbynite win; the second about how the populace was softened up by a decade of austerity. Which was the happy hunting ground the pounshop Enoch and his msm enablers furrowed. Never mind the social media machinations of ‘Dr Strangelove’ Cummings –… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 2, 2019 6:17 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

I’m lucky enough to having associated with Harold Wilson’s chief negotiator with the EEC, so have heard some firsthand account tales, indeed, he’s of the opinion EFTA was always the chart we should have plotted. Mind you, much of the actual government documentation was hidden behind the 30, 40 and 50 year rules of releasing state papers, but you can glean a great deal from US State Department documentation that’s released far earlier – christ, plans for Europe in the UK began in earnest in 1943 and British leadership was only lost when we naffed off the French with sterling devaluation, the Schuman Plan was a direct response to this, despite no ill will intended by the then Chancellor – ain’t history funny!

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Sep 2, 2019 7:45 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

It is hillarious, check this doozy from 1959 – yes 59: Joint paper by the FCO and Treasury for the Working group for the Future Policy study, ‘Developments in Western Europe’, 12 August 1959 “If the EEC developed effectively as one unit, it could readily by the early 1970s be an economic (and political) unit of the same general order of magnitude in population and gross national products as the United States in the mid 1950s… Such a consolidation of West European resources would represent a major change in terms of world power. If these people wished to do so, and devoted themselves vigorously to it, they could by 1970 be carrying out a defence effort and a foreign aid effort not greatly less than that now being exerted by the United States. The effects of this on the structure of NATO and the position of the United Kingdom could… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 2, 2019 8:19 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

The sad thing is, De Gaulle’s vision for the EEC was never fulfilled, it never became an effective third force between Anglo-Capitalism and Soviet Communism, although the existence of NATO certainly did not help – this lot completely missed the ball on China though – imagine how UK officialdom is now acting about the prospect of China over taking the USA?

Tsar Nicholas
Tsar Nicholas
Sep 2, 2019 9:43 PM
Reply to  Paolo

The British victims of neoliberalism were the ones who swung the democratic vote to Leave.

Kathy
Kathy
Aug 31, 2019 2:36 PM

When both sides of this increasingly divisive Brexit can see the other as the antidemocratic one. The spell is pretty much accomplished. The supa rich feed, thrive and trade on the chaos.

George
George
Aug 31, 2019 2:07 PM

Anal pedantic point: the expression “unelected monarch” isn’t “oxymoronic” but “tautological”.

nottheonly1
nottheonly1
Aug 31, 2019 1:47 PM

Provided you can spare two hours of your time, I recommend to watch the documentary The Great Hack. It is listed as ‘new’ (2019) on the website ‘thoughtmaybe’. Although it does not contain the final results of the Bobby Müller investigation. (I just had to do that, sorry) What it shows is, how people are manipulated into acting against their own well being for the lowest reasons the human condition provides for. The election of the Orangeman, Brexit and various other aspects of Cambridge Analytica’s involvement in fabricating consent are plainly shown. What is going on in the UK right at this moment of typing, is the result of the deepest of manipulations of the UK collective mind. The fallout of inciting division by clown like people that are not at all funny, is far greater than the mind can grasp. Yesterday, I posted a recommendation on Bella Caledonia about… Read more »

nottheonly1
nottheonly1
Aug 31, 2019 1:50 PM
Reply to  nottheonly1

My apologies for the formatting miss.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 5:08 PM
Reply to  nottheonly1

I must say the evidence of manipulation, and that’s just today, is crass indeed, in the UK we now have crowds demonstrating against a ‘Coup’ despite no coup occurring and no breach of Parliamentary precedent occurring – both Clement Attlee and John Major proroguing Parliament during their Premierships and our unwritten Constitution is based on precedent. Here in Hong Kong, we have vandals allegedly protesting in support of democracy causing yet more damage to Hong Kong infrastructure, whilst branding flags of the USA and the old UK HK Colonial flag – we are led to believe all this is spontaneous and not orchestrated by dark powers – having lived in Hong Kong under British rule and Chinese Administration, I can attest to the fact that the Basic Law has been honoured, that we have freedom of speech and Rule of Law under English Civil Law, we also have a Free… Read more »

nottheonly1
nottheonly1
Aug 31, 2019 7:06 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

…a lack of affordable housing being chronic. Maybe, if the U.S. regime would feel the same urge to overthrow the German regime as it wants to bring down the Chinese government, the presstitutes would report about the millions of people in the streets of Germany – for affordable housing. Social housing has been steadily reduced over the last two decades. The housing needed for low income earners is utterly insufficient. Prices for housing in major cities have doubled over the last ten years. Wages have not. The German regime is of course in bed with the owner class and they give a flying hoot about the increasing numbers of homeless people – especially seniors that have worked their entire life – are now on the streets and scimming trash cans for food. No, nobody writes about that. On top of it, the German regime will implement a CO2 ‘tax’ beginning… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 7:30 PM
Reply to  nottheonly1

I can assure you I’m no Merkel fan, and to all extents and purposes Germany’s Green Party has been captured by the same neoliberal forces that have captured most social democratic parties across Europe, the SDP being captured not long after the UK’s Labour Party. One of my German friends always instructs that Germany’s MSM has a tendency to sweep many issues under the carpet – he’s had many an article spiked in major German newspapers, suffice to say, he and his wife now vote Die Linke. As regards the de-carbonisation of the German Economy, well, that’s a bit of a joke, if only because some German manufacturing has been moved across borders to former Eastern European economies. And yes, its the poor that usually suffer, and poverty and the fear of poverty are on the rise in Germany, much as it is elsewhere across Europe – suffice to say,… Read more »

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Sep 1, 2019 11:17 AM
Reply to  nottheonly1

“Allow me to emphasize one important point. While ‘Cambridge Analytica’ no longer exists, ‘Google Analytics’ does. When you go to any website, your browser will show you at the bottom the loading elements. ‘Google Analytics’ will always appear. Google Analytics has taken over the business of Cambridge Analytica and I can only hope that people know what that means.”

It means that you are barking. Up a tree that isn’t there.

UreKismet
UreKismet
Aug 31, 2019 10:24 AM

While acknowledging the role which US intelligence played in creating the circumstances necessary for the corrupt sections of the Oz media to hammer out 57 point headlines about “the Oz dollar crisis” when the Whitlam government sorted the issue when fixing the unconstitutional and therefore almost certainly short lived, fiscal problems,through organising a delivery of vast proportions – “unwhite gold” shock horror – a stroke which took the antediluvian arseholes fronting for ever grasping english & american banks 100% unawares. So enter Betty the slapper – she used an -until that day, forgotten ploy of pulling out the old ‘head of state trumps all’ spiel, then insisted on the dismissal of Gough’s guvmint. I’m not saying that to provoke some sort of discussion about who did what to whom back in 1975 – I know already and there are no words could change that – my point is that as… Read more »

Wilmers31
Wilmers31
Aug 31, 2019 4:46 AM

Boris Johnson

@BorisJohnson
To invest in our NHS, deal with violent crime and cut the cost of living we need a Queen’s Speech.

Maybe you do – but for investment in the NHS, deal with violent crime, and cut the cost of living you need money. MONEY<MONEY< MONEY does not come from the Queen making a speech but from reducing military expenditure.

No more soldiers to the ME. Sell the aircraft carrier. Do not buy F-35s. This is not rocket science and nets you billions, BILLIONS. Do not let them use and short change you – don't enlist.

different frank
different frank
Aug 31, 2019 1:22 AM

comment image

ZigZag Wanderer
ZigZag Wanderer
Aug 31, 2019 12:27 AM

Lets not forget what the old fart General said about Corbyn in no. 10 ?

This could be a double whammy coup.

Boris coup … Halloween surprise … General election … Corbyn elected … Military coup.

Wow … how cool Brittania is that ? Two coups in a year .

If I knew politics was this good I wouldn’t have majored in shelf stacking at Uni.

different frank
different frank
Aug 31, 2019 1:14 AM

Remember what Bolton said about Corbyn being elected.

John A
John A
Aug 31, 2019 9:21 AM

Pompeo you mean.

JudyJ
JudyJ
Aug 31, 2019 11:14 AM
Reply to  John A

Indeed. And interestingly that happened not too long after he (Pompeo) had met with Sir Mark Sedwill (head of the Civil Service) in March 2019. Sir Mark Sedwill has a VERY interesting career as can be seen from his Wikipedia entry. He was also present at the infamous Gavin Williamson Huawei Cabinet meeting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Sedwill When Sedwill was appointed as head of the Civil Service, controversially retaining the simultaneous role as National Security Adviser, this was all without competition and with the blessing of Theresa May who said he was the only person for the head of the CS job. He was quoted earlier this year in an interview for Civil Service Quarterly as (cryptically) saying that by holding both posts he would be ensuring “a genuine sense of teamwork across and beyond [my emphasis] government”. I wonder how far reaching the ‘beyond government’ remit goes. Everyone may also recall that… Read more »

JudyJ
JudyJ
Aug 31, 2019 11:17 AM
Reply to  JudyJ

Sorry, in para 2 of my comments above, “beyond” should have been highlighted for emphasis.

BigB
BigB
Sep 1, 2019 10:46 AM
Reply to  JudyJ

Judy J: Sedwill is also BoBo’s Cabinet Secretary – so he holds three major offices of state …which gives him unprecedented access and power. Many, including myself, think of him as the unnoficial head of state. BoBo is his cabinet secretary: not the other way around. I can also identify many of ‘BoBo’s’ policies as being Lord Jim O’Neil’s policies (former Goldman Sachs; coined the BRICS acronym; former Cameron Minister (resigned under May); current chair of Chatham House). I’m not claiming they are the only members of the ‘Old Boy’ network …but they seem to have undue influence. BoBo is merely their spokesperson. His agenda is set for him: following WEF neoliberal policy. Which is why I claim we are living under a totally unaccountable neoliberal government of occupation. For reasons stated elsewhere and below – the mere change in occupancy of No10 has little impact on this. Based on… Read more »

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 1, 2019 9:53 AM
Reply to  John A

” HE’LL HAVE TO RUN THE GAUNTLET”.

The film “Full Metal Jacket” by Stanley Kubrick depicts a powerful example of running the gauntlet

different frank
different frank
Sep 1, 2019 11:55 PM
Reply to  John A

Sorry

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 1, 2019 9:49 AM

ZigZag Wanderer you should be proud of your country and its coups. Don’t forget these coups, which seem quaint and pathetic at the same time, once terrorised the entire globe. They put the “Great” into “Great Britten” and built the mightiest empire ever known ( ermm! until America’s ) If you give it a year or two, we might, politically grow up and become a proper country. You know, like Guatemala or El Salvador where, apparently, America can have four coups a year and still have room for dinner.

mark
mark
Aug 30, 2019 11:51 PM

Poor old Hugh Grant.
Maybe he needs another session with Divine Brown to console him.

different frank
different frank
Aug 30, 2019 11:31 PM

Just a few inks
https://badboysofbrexit.com/
Brexit: disaster capitalism
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86556
If anyone thinks that the likes of Raab (Britain unchained) and Mogg et al wants to do anything good for the working class, I have a bridge to sell.

different frank
different frank
Aug 30, 2019 11:37 PM

links

different frank
different frank
Aug 30, 2019 11:41 PM

SCL – a Very British Coup.
Liam O Hare on the deep connections between Cambridge Analytica’s parent company Strategic Communication Laboratories (SCL Group) and the Conservative Party and military establishment, ‘Board members include an array of Lords, Tory donors, ex-British army officers and defense contractors. This is scandal that cuts to the heart of the British establishment.’
https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/03/20/scl-a-very-british-coup/
So brexit is not an establishment idea eh?
Read “Pinochet in Piccadilly”
This is their coup.

andic
andic
Aug 31, 2019 3:55 AM

I looked at the bad boys website, it’s a bit simplistic. I was disappointed but not surprised to see the obligatory Russian smears. I then looked at Cato’s site and understood, probably everything she endorses is shallow and ill thought out.

I can’t access the second without a vpn, I’m giddy with excitement about it though.

Tsar Nicholas
Tsar Nicholas
Sep 2, 2019 9:46 PM

Nevertheless, it was the British working class who decided to Leave, and they are not stupid (like you champagne socialists tend to believe).

bevin
bevin
Aug 30, 2019 11:12 PM

Chris has been posting the same stuff-in a tribute to the late Gwyn A Williams- as I have for years.
Believe me if he were a troll he’d be in Hong Kong now where the Empire needs all the help it can buy.

different frank
different frank
Aug 31, 2019 1:20 AM
Reply to  bevin

I remember when you dissed my telling of my Asian neighbours having their home petrol bombed front and back.
No real nazis?

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 7:10 AM
Reply to  bevin

bevin,
I’m still in HK, and have recently been on MOATS discussing the ‘Riots’, which I’m unimpressed by, to put it bluntly, if folks can’t accept Chinese sovereignty and brandish US and Imperialist UK Flags at Demo’s they lose my support – have not checked out the Foreign Correspondent’s Club for quite a while, but can attest to the fact we had a few spooks around in 1996 – mind you, if I’m a spook, I’m a most poor one, pay not being what it used to be in service of the Queen.

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 1, 2019 9:56 AM
Reply to  bevin

Bevin you hit that nail a real blow. He is in Hong Kong! Ha!

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 2, 2019 4:02 PM

@pablomillerunit You are indeed a Troll of the worst order, on par with the Habbakuk Troll that used to post on Craig Murray’s Blog – first and foremost I spend 52 days a year with my family in Wales, I’m forced to do this because Ms May changed the criteria associated with the issuance of Spousal Settlement Visa’s for me and my British/Welsh Daughter to reside in my home town, where she was due to be educated in Welsh, the native tongue of my Country. By denying my Wife an ability to live with me in my own country I’m stuck in Hong Kong – this matter will only change if we get a Corbyn Government – maybe I should abandon my wife and daughter to satisfy your racism and lies. Now, please don’t interact with me again as you are certainly not worth associating with in any means or… Read more »

Ruth
Ruth
Aug 30, 2019 10:49 PM

I think the purpose of this ‘coup’ is to add further to the frenzy of the Brexiteers to make sure in the snap election they vote Tory. Once the number of Conservative MPs is upped, Johnson can go for No Deal but he can also go for May’s deal

K Ford
K Ford
Aug 30, 2019 10:20 PM

BORIS JOHNSON – A man who betrays his family, will betray his country.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 30, 2019 8:58 PM

I’ve been here for 3 years. One day “Chris Rogers” parachutes in and blasts this site with comments.
Is he his own independent self?
Is he a CIA troll?
Is he a GCHQ troll?
Is he a Russian troll?
Is he an Israeli troll?
Who knows?

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 9:18 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

I’m a Putin Bot Frank – trust that helps you with your enquiries, although, I’m confident you’ll find me posting on other Left-of-Centre Blogs, together with Twitter, and once, before its was taken over completely by Centrist. I regularly posted BTL on The Guardian, hence my knowledge of this site, which I usually visit, if only to catch some wise words from Bevin.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 31, 2019 12:45 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Chris recognized my handle from Naked Capitalism, so I can vouch. At any rate, if he’s a troll, then he must be a damn good one!

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 1, 2019 10:53 AM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

Seamus , do you not think trolls must evolve – just like all the other organisms on this planet?

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 31, 2019 6:32 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

I’m a Putin Bot Frank

So that’s a “Russian troll”.
I don’t actually think you are, but hey, disinfo agents are pretty sneaky these days ;o)

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 7:33 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Usually I get accused of being an Assad Apologist, or a Bot from the St Petersburg Bot factory – never been accused of being an American Bot, or UK Security Agencies Bot, still, if the pays good I’ll investigate.

Sophie - Admin1
Admin
Sophie - Admin1
Aug 30, 2019 9:27 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Frank – there’s zero reason to believe CR is anything but an interested reader and commenter. His comments have been to the point, informed and polite.

We urge people not to speculate about the motives of other commenters, unless the circs are incredibly suggestive of bad intent, and even then ignoring the perps is a better idea.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 9:37 PM

Thanks Admin, as it happens I was going to hog Craig Murray’s latest blog and offer a mild rebuke for his use of the word ‘Coup’, by chance, you had a post that was of interest to me with a similar critique, so I’ve added my bobs worth here, however, and being a regular poster on other Leftwing Blogs, if I ain’t welcome I won’t post anymore, given Bevin usually covers points I agree with – still if this is how regular treat posters wish I’d not bothered as I’m confident Frank can amuse all.

MLS
MLS
Aug 30, 2019 9:51 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

People are by and large decent and friendly here. Moderation is much more open than CM’s blog. Usually more variety of opinions and less like a little circle jerk (though we have a couple or three of mutual strokers ).

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 10:01 PM
Reply to  MLS

Twitter is actually the worst, particularly if you articulate any critique of Israel – the usual suspects are all over you – after three Bans in six months I was forced not to post under my actual identity, which I dislike greatly as fervently believe in Freedom of Speech – David Collier having a strong dislike of me – maybe Frank can hop over to Collier’s site, I’m sure my posts will amuse him.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 31, 2019 6:33 PM

I’d suggest that you might possibly wish to reserve your judgement until you fully understand how Reverse Psychology works.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 7:36 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Regretfully Frank I’ve not studied a great deal of psychology, apart from that utilised by Wilson to crush the US Left as it prepared to enter WWI, US exceptionalism being the best known fallacy of that devious operation.

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 1, 2019 10:05 AM

Who ever he is, he told lies about me on this thread, that is incredibly suggestive of bad intent. It is in black and white at the top of the thread. I havn’t done nuthing to nobody.

” Ye shall know them by their fruits”

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 10:38 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Frank, if you’ve only been posting/reading here for three years, I can better that, for if you supplied links to Off Guardian on the BTL threads of The Guardian your posts were deleted and accounts placed in Moderation, I usually post links for this site on other Leftist sites, despite not posting much, but, strange is it not I know quite a few posters who I’ve interacted with over the years. Alas, I’m a spook, which is better than being accused of being an ultra Leftist by Centrists within the Labour Party.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 31, 2019 5:10 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

OK, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for a bit longer ;o)

vexarb
vexarb
Aug 30, 2019 7:01 PM

Report from Jon Hellevig in the Saker on impendng decline of the Euro-Dollar: “Finally, there is an important consideration that few if anyone seem to understand. That is the fact that the US and EU countries have been able to print the stupendous amounts of money while keeping rates down and without the currency values crashing only because they enjoy local currency monopolies in their respective territories. The USD has of course been enjoying a global monopoly, but that is fast fading. All the other factors mentioned above (and several other ones), have enabled to prop up and prolong these currency monopolies, but there is a limit to everything. In the coming recession, I would expect some of the lesser currencies to lose their monopoly trust and that would shatter the position of the bigger currencies USD and Euro and force them to raise interest rates. I have earlier written… Read more »

lundiel
lundiel
Aug 30, 2019 7:40 PM
Reply to  vexarb

They certainly shouldn’t envisage joining the Euro, a European army and becoming a federated state.

BigB
BigB
Aug 31, 2019 9:08 AM
Reply to  vexarb

Vex: Mark Carnage is making his bid to replace Lagarde at the IMF with something he is calling a ‘Synthetic Hegemonic Currency’ (SHC). Which will be a cryptocurrency creation of the G9 central banks (there’s no such thing: but G7+2 – Russia and China). Which, as I said recently, will be worse than the dollar reserve. The CB’s will control the price of money globally, from a centralised vantage point. Not only will all the same players have access to the levers of control – exactly as they do with the dollar, only worse. Soros has Lagarde on speed-dial. Not only do they control the money cost of money: they control policy too. Which is why Argentina is a canary in the coalmine. Countries grow by attracting foreign direct investment (FDI). Which is fine: but investors want a high rate of return …which can easily be acheived by investing in… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 12:47 PM
Reply to  BigB

What you describe, although focusing on Argentina is exactly what happened in Asia during the Asian crisis of 97/98, further, actual R&D investment in South Korea has yet to recover to its pre-1998 levels – Thailand and Malaysia were badly hit, I remember well in Kuala Lumpur the abandoned MTR system they were building – one reason I favour capital controls, which are more and more finding favour in the ASEAN group of nations, which by a strange coincidence, ain’t a supranational body like our beloved EU.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Sep 2, 2019 2:48 AM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

“What you describe, although focusing on Argentina is exactly what happened in Asia during the Asian crisis of 97/98…” What BigB is describing, although at the moment he* seems to concentrating on the immediate more than usual, is better understood by reading on further to The proroguing pseudo-event was yesterday’s news. Todays will be Greta in NY at the UN Climate Summit. Not many people can see that they are inextricably linked. Linked by finance and entropy. which forms the basis of almost all of his posts and is worth rereading repeatedly until you actually understand it, not least because he* is almost the only, if not the only, poster here who even begins to move the discussion of anything discussed here beyond “yesterday’s news” into a framework in which the more relevant issues, i.e. those of today’s and tomorrow’s news, can be seriously discussed, let alone practically addressed. *… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Sep 2, 2019 2:45 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

* he: as if it mattered. I’m not sure what motivated your intervention: but I explained above why proroguing is a pseudo-event – designed to mask the real agenda …we are not leaving the EU. For which Gwythian Prins has concrete physical evidence – the so-called ‘KitKat Tapes’. We are in fact, deepening our ties with the EU at Defence and Foreign policy level. Which is why Raab and Wallace were at their respective ministers meetings: we are not leaving the EU. Our military is being unified into the EU Defence Union: we are not leaving the EU. UK Column has all the details and timeline. We are not leaving the EU. So proroguing is a total irrelevance to the real agenda: which I have made clear and concrete. I live in the UK: and what happens here will affect me: deal or no-deal. Which is why I feel that… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 2, 2019 6:55 PM
Reply to  BigB

BigB, The authors of Lobster Magazine have stated as much as you, namely, they believe it unlikely the UK will exit the EU – of course, they don’t cover ecological concerns, unless its how security services invade thought to ensure persons keep their eye on one distraction or another. I’m firmly in your camp that the spectacle of the entire EU Referendum exercise is a ‘bait & switch’ one, entertainment for the masses as a real crisis develops, aided by the nutcases who financialise everything necessary just to exist, carbon trading being a classic example of this, together with the full privatisation of global water supplies. So, given our knowledge, the only thing that’s to be considered is will the real crisis exhibit in one big Black Swan event, or as John Michael Greer contends, it will be a staggered, slow descent? While much of our Ruling Elite believes it… Read more »

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Sep 9, 2019 5:16 PM
Reply to  BigB

“I’m not sure what motivated your intervention…”

Time. It seemed about time I reposted one of my occasional, random recommendations that readers here read and place more weight on your analyses of our current situation, Brexit and in general–particularly in general–than they place on the less insightful yadda yadda of the mostly sterile, parroted doomsaying posts of others “discussing” what they take to be the relevant points. Plus what I imagined to be a super compressed explanation of why I think that. If you didn’t understand it, try rereading it until you do. To check the latter point, I’ve just reread it myself. Worked for me.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Sep 10, 2019 3:19 AM
Reply to  BigB

To make it clearer in pictures, like a cartoon book, may I first blockquote your proroguing reiteration of what you seem to believe I had overlooked: …proguing is a pseudo-event – designed to mask the real agenda …we are not leaving the EU. For which Gwythian Prins has concrete physical evidence – the so-called ‘KitKat Tapes’. We are in fact, deepening our ties with the EU at Defence and Foreign policy level. Which is why Raab and Wallace were at their respective ministers meetings: we are not leaving the EU. Our military is being unified into the EU Defence Union: we are not leaving the EU. UK Column has all the details and timeline. We are not leaving the EU. So proroguing is a total irrelevance to the real agenda: which I have made clear and concrete. I live in the UK: and what happens here will affect me: deal… Read more »

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 31, 2019 12:54 PM
Reply to  BigB

Is this new G9 currency idea like the old Bancor or Special Drawing Rights? If so, that’d be a total nightmare–ten times worse than having the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency! The banksters will be in seventh heaven. They’ll now be able to control virtually every currency on earth withouh eeven having to pretend to answer to anyone else. Sad …

BigB
BigB
Sep 1, 2019 11:31 AM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

No, not a Bancor. Keynes central idea was to iron out trade imbalances over the year: and put the excess to good use globally. Not Carnage. The crypto-SDR sounds more relevant …based on Facebook’s ‘Libra’. No really, he mentioned it by name. The thought of Zuckerberg controlling the ‘hegemonic’ reserve doesn’t bear thinking of. I wrote a long reply the other day – over on the ‘Discuss: Johnson prorogues…’ forum. It’s quite away down the page. So, I’ll stick it here: because I am not at all sure the BoBo-bot and Carnage are on different pages – as the ‘independent’ BoE should be. I think it is not about ‘being left behind by crpto’ as the crypto-enthusiats think. There may be an element of truth – Carnage has always been considered an crypto-dunce. I think the issue with the dollar is far more fundamental – there aren’t enough of them.… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 1:08 PM
Reply to  BigB

Greer certainly sees through, and was discussing our Greta in his last post on 21 August, which I’ve only just caught up with, and, seem pertinent for this thread shall I say: https://www.ecosophia.net/the-dream-of-a-managed-society/

vexarb
vexarb
Sep 1, 2019 8:02 AM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Chris, thanks for that link to EcoSophia (Greek: Household Wisdom). A clip: “The global economy these days is dominated by a vast superstructure of what might best be called _Hallucinatory Finance_ in which investment vehicles that have no noticeable connection to actual goods or services are assigned arbitrary values and traded feverishly in worldwide markets. It so happens that in order to keep that superstructure propped up, a steady flow of actual wealth—modest in terms of the gargantuan notional values of the superstructure, but much less so in human terms—has to be added to the mix. … with results you can see quite readily if you walk down Main Street in any American city or town outside a few wealthy coastal enclaves. Successful as it was, that strategy has had serious downsides, among them the rise of populist movements—think Trump and Brexit—aimed at shutting down the extraction of money from… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Sep 1, 2019 12:14 PM
Reply to  vexarb

As estimated by Dr Jack Rasmus: the value of Trump’s tax cuts going to the ‘Godzillionaire’s’ via Wall St – $10tn. Loss to Main St over the decade – $10tn. It is a massive re-distribution scam to buy loyalty. The whole Trump ‘neo-nationalism’ and ‘deglobalisation’ or ‘reverse globalisation’ is an unintended consequence. The ‘mechanism of globalisation’ is the Eurobond market – centred in London. Bonds that are merely denominated in dollars. They are not actual dollars – which seems to confuse everyone. The dollar is the investors hedge. A ‘strong dollar’ draws investors ‘onshore’ and in to dollar denominated assets – like Treasury Bonds. This weakens the ‘offshore’ eurodollar markets – weakening global trade (so called ‘deglobalisation’). This is the famous Triffin Paradox. A ‘weak dollar’ suits globalisation: a ‘strong dollar’ stalls globalised economic trade. Which is exactly what Mark Carnage was addressing with his ‘Synthetic Hegemonic Currency’ (SHC) proposal.… Read more »

vexarb
vexarb
Sep 1, 2019 5:57 AM
Reply to  BigB

BigB: “The real issues concern every citizen focusing on what is real for them. Family, friends future, music, art, dogs …none of it is safe under these …” I keep thinking of Great Britain under Attlee: both the Attlee Labour government and the previous Attlee-Churchill coalition government. With Churchill or Bevan to make the big speeches and modest little Attlee to see the children fed, Britain fought a major war yet the health of its people increased as never before. One of the delights of being in London in the late50s-early60s was the health of the young Cockneys. Before Attlee, the East End of London was world famous for undernourishment and disease. I know nothing of finance but I have a vague impression that under Attlee income tax on the rich increased progressively from 50% to 99%. Rather like modern Israel in its early days under its early communist days,… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 1, 2019 10:31 AM
Reply to  vexarb

Prior to the onset of the Thatcher/Reagan era, taxable income rates both sides of the Atlantic were as high as 90% – if you are aware of the Powell Memorandum of 1971, a neoliberal call to arms, this is when the Elite began its fightback against the New Deal, obviously it coincided with the 1973 Oil Shock and the rest is history: https://studenthandouts.com/texts/historical-documents/powell-memorandum.html

BigB
BigB
Sep 1, 2019 11:06 AM
Reply to  vexarb

I know you are an expat now. The modern ”cockney child” – living in the literal shadow of Canary Wharf; locating nearly all of the world’s financial institutions – is suffering from TB and other Victorian diseases of malnutrition and poverty. All that excessive money (world ForEx trade $5tn – a day! – much of it over the counter in the City) is a crime against humanity. One days trade ends world poverty forever (as estimated in 2018 this would cost a mere $175bn a year – that’s a lot of years squandered every day – for the children who live in Victorian Britain cheek-by-jowl with such fantastical amounts capital. Imagine if just a minutes trade was directed their way?)

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Sep 2, 2019 7:00 PM
Reply to  BigB

BigB,

I’m not uncouth enough to use the term ‘Expat’, both me and my wife are immigrants, economic ones at that – however, if the choice is being poor where i currently reside, or being poor in Wales, I elect Wales all the time, and for obvious reasons, Hong Kong is far too over crowded and public order will be hard to maintain come any real ecological crisis.

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 1, 2019 11:19 AM
Reply to  vexarb

Vexarb, I read somewhere that when the conscripts arrived at the boot camps, after being called up, at the start of the Second World War – their basic health was found to be in considerably worse than the same moment in 1914. The interwar years – the general strike, the great depression etc, impacted health outcomes for the working classes far more than is reported. Beveridge used it as part of his foundational report on the welfare state. Cheers!

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 1, 2019 11:04 AM
Reply to  BigB

Thanks BigB for your message, you have educated me about something I have never grasped. Being thick and stubborn I don’t often get to experience educative uplift. Cheers

Ramdan
Ramdan
Sep 2, 2019 3:48 PM
Reply to  BigB
Ben Trovata
Ben Trovata
Aug 31, 2019 4:52 PM
Reply to  vexarb

Thanks,vexarb! I followed the link you provided,and *viciously* skipped along in it. I found Hellevig’s descriptions of “neoliberalism” vis-a-vis “liberalism”,unsalutary; and, his term: “neo-Bolshevik”incomprehensible.Baffling!

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 5:44 PM
Reply to  Ben Trovata

Try Professor David Harvey’s book on neoliberalism, its probably the most accessible account available, Prof. David Graeber’s History of Debt is also worth a gander – both books compliment more ecological studies.

vexarb
vexarb
Sep 1, 2019 1:20 PM
Reply to  Ben Trovata

Ben, I never argue over definitions, I think the value of that article lies in its wealth of data favourable to Putin’s Russia. Especially the growth of Russia’s real PP income (3rd place after U$A and Germany) — and achieved with miniscule debt compared to everyone else’s “Debtburger”. Hope this clip is printable; if not, just skip thru the article but ponder the graphs. Russia is actually benefiting from its difficulty in obtaining loans from the usual suspects — why, how, who, what is responsible for that extraordinary phenomenon? “The debt game has been miserable all over the West, perhaps with the only exception of Germany, who has wisely refrained from participating, even when egged on by liberal economists calling Germany’s more prudent policy unfair to the gambling nations. Below chart shows how much more the Western governments have borrowed than produced economic growth. The chart covers years 2004 to… Read more »

crank
crank
Aug 30, 2019 5:30 PM

Britain best be “rid of him and his loathsome gang as soon and as finally as possible.” [quoting Pulman]

This had a certain whiff of a coup of its own, the sort of thing that Westminster systems have been vulnerable to in history. (Australia offers an apt, if undistinguished example of the overthrow of Prime Minister Gough Whitlam in 1975, ably assisted by opposition leader Malcolm Fraser and then governor general John Kerr.)

That is a stretched comaprison isn’t it? Pulman is no Machiavellian political operative. Whitlam was brought down with the crucial help of the US intelligence agencies, not a fantasy novelist.
Pulman’s tweet smelled to me of calls for revolt against a disgustingly strident Establishment.

crank
crank
Aug 30, 2019 6:31 PM
Reply to  Editor

What is ‘the Establishment’ ?
Philip Pulman ?
(That was the example in the article which I criticised).

Roland Spansky
Roland Spansky
Aug 30, 2019 10:11 PM
Reply to  crank

You mentioned the establishment first so I guess you have to know what you meant by it:

Pulman’s tweet smelled to me of calls for revolt against a disgustingly strident Establishment.

crank
crank
Aug 31, 2019 12:16 PM
Reply to  Roland Spansky

Whatever I think it is, I don’t think Philip Pulman would feature much in a defintition.
That was the point I was trying to make.
I don’t share Pulman’s politics.
But I stand by the criticism that it was a poor comparison to make in the article.
I think it is possible to be critical of Johnson’s moves to bypass parliamentary involvement and still be sympathetic to the principle that the ref result should be honoured for the sake of democratic principle.
Back in 2016, there was a lot more talk of the ‘Establishment being split on the issue’. That seems to have faded into Leavers categorically insisting that the handling of Brexit has been an ‘Establishment stitch up’, and Remoaners categorically insisting that ‘the Establishment are mounting a coup through Brexit’.
Can they both be right ?

crank
crank
Aug 31, 2019 12:16 PM
Reply to  crank

BTW
Pulman has deleted the tweet.

Ruth
Ruth
Aug 30, 2019 10:41 PM
Reply to  crank

crank, I’d be very interested in how you or any other readers describe the Establishment

crank
crank
Aug 31, 2019 12:38 PM
Reply to  Ruth

I guess the anodyne definition would be those at the top of the power pyramid.
It seems from the ‘outside’ that there is a secretive substructure through which the interests of the Establishment elite work out their differences, maintain discipline and formulate strategy for furthering their common interests.
It also seems that anyone who really explores this aspect encounters a set of ideas that go way beyond the pursuit of wealth and political power. There are ancient stories that many of those at the top subscribe to, and in which they seem to view themselves as key participants.
I won’t write more (because I have previously been rebuked for sharing my views on OffG), other than I think Whitney Webb is on the right track – I think she is exposing the ‘Establishment’ as it should be understood.

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 1, 2019 11:31 AM
Reply to  crank

Well crank, if I was pushed I would say, the establishment is the empire that never dies. Philip K. Dick discusses this in “The Man in the High castle”. It is my favorite of all of the books that he wrote that I have read. These days, people call it “the deep state”. Unless Pullman has intelligence connections, any role he plays in establishment is, IMO insignificant.

different frank
different frank
Aug 30, 2019 11:34 PM
Reply to  Editor

The “establishment”?
Rees Mogg.
Brexit is an establishment cause.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 30, 2019 3:53 PM

Johnson The American and his storm troopers are instituting a right wing coup of the UK Parliament. The Ukrainian Banderists in Kiev would be proud of them .

Johnson is being egged on by Trump, and Pompeo stated they will not allow Corbyn to become PM. How’s that on the scale of foreign interference in British affairs?

Those Marxists who still cannot see what’s going on are living in pure denial. Moreover, those who think that they can engineer a socialist republic post-Brexit are completely deluded.

Meanwhile, the average person gets shat on in the battle between the far right and the far left. They all need shipping off to Pitcairn Island and be left to their own devices.

Natasha
Natasha
Aug 30, 2019 4:05 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

The EU was also backing the Banderists too!! Now you’ve recast them as the good guys?

Look, the EU and the US answer to the same banksters at the IMF and World Bank. The notion they are opposing each other is junk. It’s just a puppet show.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 30, 2019 4:13 PM
Reply to  Natasha

Natasha, I haven’t referred to the EU even once in my comment, so what on Earth are you on about?

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 30, 2019 4:16 PM
Reply to  Natasha

…and also don’t put words in my mouth, or assume what I am thinking.

Roland Spansky
Roland Spansky
Aug 30, 2019 4:07 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Dude, you basically just recycled the entirety of the front page of the Guardian.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 30, 2019 4:14 PM
Reply to  Roland Spansky

No, I detest The Guardian Of The Establishment newspaper. You are suffering from binary, simplistic thinking in assuming someone against Johnson and his coup are pro EU.

George
George
Aug 30, 2019 4:55 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Those “Marxists” again. Watch out – the commies are coming. Don’t know where or how they got here or how they managed to stay around. But they’ve infiltrated everything. Extreme Left everywhere!

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 30, 2019 9:03 PM
Reply to  George

Erm, no, where did I say that, or think that?
Orwell is my friend, both far right. and far left. pollute reality.

Haltonbrat
Haltonbrat
Aug 30, 2019 5:13 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

And which country is egging on Trump to stop Corbyn becoming PM?

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 30, 2019 6:46 PM
Reply to  Haltonbrat

Why, that’s the one the country out there that controls both the US and the UK. (Hint: they write backwards.)

different frank
different frank
Aug 30, 2019 11:35 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

Really?

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 31, 2019 9:07 AM

Yes. Since Corbyn’s pro-Palestinian, so they’re dog-piling him for ‘anti-Semitism’. Haven’t you noticed?

Haltonbrat
Haltonbrat
Aug 31, 2019 2:39 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

Well both Arabic and Hebrew are written backwards. Wonder how that commonality came about?

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 5:39 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Frank, hate to rain on your parade, but forget the ERG and Rightist loonies inhabiting many of the Tory Parliamentary seats and consider the actions of our Centrist chums, who, are far more dangerous and sinister as far as Corbyn is concerned. Indeed, a very senior banker in the City of London explained more than 12 months ago that the London-elite were more fearful of Corbyn than any ‘No Deal’ Brexit – now considered the actions of the likes of Jo Swineson, who allegedly loves the EU, opposes Brexit in its entirety and is happier preventing JC becoming Premier than in actually stopping Brexit – with the ERG we know who our enemy is, with the Centrists, in many instances that’s the enemy within and it grates me greatly.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 30, 2019 9:06 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

No Chris, you are not pissing on my parade at all, because, i have no parade. I just stive to out extremists and psychops scumbags like you.
You think you are smart, but your stupidity reveals who you are working and posting for.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 9:19 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Oh God I’m outed, how sad, will be amusing for others who know me though.

different frank
different frank
Aug 30, 2019 11:36 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Austerity Swinson is a tory.
She will always be one.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Aug 30, 2019 9:41 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

”Those Marxists who still cannot see what’s going on are living in pure denial.”

Hmmm, could you elaborate, particularly on the term ‘Marxists’ Who are these ‘Marxists’ what do they say and sound like? Do they carry around copies of the ‘Grundrisse’ tucked under their arm or perhaps 3 Volumes of ‘Theories of Surplus Value’ or horribile dictu, 3 Volumes of Capital. Can you name any of them? What do you think Marxism is exactly? Since you seem to have expert knowledge I would be grateful for some enlightenment.

It’s always amusing to read someone who hasn’t the slightest idea of what they are talking about. Like trolls everywhere they stick out like a sore thumb.

DiggerUK
DiggerUK
Aug 30, 2019 3:49 PM

Whilst the modus operandi of the Circumlocution Office was adhered to by the parliamentary remainers it was obvious, despite all their cunning, that they were just filibustering. If they could just keep the result at a stalemate, then they still had skin in the game. The EU gave them all the Fergie time they needed and would, I believe, have given extension, after extension, after extension. After all, that also kept their project in the game. Now the game has changed, and all those conniving dirt bags in parliament, together with their supporters in the street, are having to face up to the result of trying to overturn the referendum result. We just might end up stuck with a government of Le Grande Oaf, Javid, Patel and Raab etc., for the next five years. This could come about because they will present themselves as pseudo champions of the people against… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Aug 30, 2019 2:46 PM

Talking of dying worlds: the prorogation scandal is the latest pseudo-event in the Debordian Spectacle. The thing about Situationism is that it fixes attention and perception and embeds it in its own contextual Situation. One which we then cannot escape. Thus: the Spectacle and the Spectator are fixed in a consumer/spectator co-creation of the spectacular image of Capitalist Realism. TINA. The prorogation did not happen. It was/is textual, spectral, specular, and simulacrum rolled into one . Here’s why… On a previous forum (Phillip’s ‘Three Reads’) I gave a ‘666’ bio-econometric account of the underlying UK economy. We monetise £6 per £1 of GDP ‘growth’; the UK has an overall national level EROI of 6.2:1; globally: after refining – our primary resource of oil has an EROI of 6:1. That’s £6:£1; 6.2:1; and 6:1 – ‘666’ bio-econometrics. Milosevic picked me up for not explaining the ratios. So I did: “We’re fucked”.… Read more »

PSJ
PSJ
Aug 30, 2019 3:20 PM
Reply to  BigB

Talking of dying worlds: the prorogation scandal is the latest pseudo-event in the Debordian Spectacle. The thing about Situationism is that it fixes attention and perception and embeds it in its own contextual Situation. One which we then cannot escape. Thus: the Spectacle and the Spectator are fixed in a consumer/spectator co-creation of the spectacular image of Capitalist Realism.

I have no idea what that means.

Mucho
Mucho
Aug 30, 2019 4:34 PM
Reply to  PSJ

All the world’s a stage?

BigB
BigB
Aug 30, 2019 5:03 PM
Reply to  PSJ

It’s the economy, stupid! (Not you, it’s just a phrase). Politics is a story: primarily about an economy. If the economy is unhinged from reality: you can tell any story you like. It’s just words talking about words. The rest of the comment makes it clear. I linked to significant research to make the point. The politics of both major parties is pure fantasy. A fantasy we get drawn into, so it seems real enough. But the underlying reality is entropic. Dreams of switching our current fantasy lifestyle to another power source are purely scientifically incoherent. The fantasy GND – which Labour has adopted – is built on so many scientifically incoherent assumptions that it is not possible – or even rational – to believe. The Torie BAU – with natural capital – is completely logically incoherent. Both are versions of the economic calculus that precipitated the current collapse scenario.… Read more »

PSJ
PSJ
Aug 30, 2019 5:08 PM
Reply to  BigB

I see. I believe Catte has commented several times that political conflicts are mostly theater. Would that be a fair summary of your message?

If so I agree.

BigB
BigB
Aug 30, 2019 11:31 PM
Reply to  PSJ

Absolutely, PSJ: absolutely. Johnson prorogues Parliament; deal or no-deal; soft or hard Brexit; all other parties conspire in the Church House Declaration to keep Parliament open; ‘Final Say/Final Stay’ vote; Peoples Vote …all pure Kabuki theatrics. Keepin’ it real: meanwhile back in the real world – when no one is looking – Ben Wallace and Dominic Raab attend the ‘Gymlich’ …the informal meeting of Defence and Foreign Ministers of the EU. The EU? The EU we’re ‘leaving’? “You can check out any time you like; but you can never leave”. If you have not read this piece by Gwythian Prins: you should. We were never leaving the EU. In fact: we seem to be drawn into ‘more Europe’. https://briefingsforbrexit.com/escaping-from-hotel-california/ The UK Column has been reporting on this since before Brexit was even a thing: long before anyone dusted the word ‘prorogue’ from a dusty 19th century dictionary. We are being… Read more »

Pete Fairhurst
Pete Fairhurst
Aug 30, 2019 7:00 PM
Reply to  BigB

Excellent and thought provoking comments Big B
In fact they are more important than the article itself
Thank you

Antonym
Antonym
Aug 31, 2019 2:35 AM
Reply to  BigB

Brexit is peanuts next to the XR suicide..

Antonym
Antonym
Aug 31, 2019 2:40 AM
Reply to  Antonym

Most of the EU is also in XR mode so in equal deep sh*t.

Tony
Tony
Aug 31, 2019 7:15 PM
Reply to  Antonym

They both have the same patron: George Soros.

Antonym
Antonym
Aug 31, 2019 2:50 AM
Reply to  Antonym

Western Europe is also knee deep in the Islamic intolerants import scheme under the motto “no discrimination”. Between Angela and Greta Boris is the minor clown.

crank
crank
Aug 30, 2019 5:10 PM
Reply to  PSJ

In short,
“We’re fucked.”

BigB
BigB
Aug 30, 2019 7:36 PM
Reply to  crank

No, the “We’re fucked” is contingent on our inability to deal with the harshening realities. I know a few scientists myself (I nearly married one). They are absolutely tearing their hair out that they can only write in very couched terms that do not trigger the human negativity bias …the one we are most sensitive to. The only ones who have broken with discretionary caution are Jem Bendell and Rupert Read – who are both associated with XR (Read is a main spokesperson). Bendell wrote his ‘Deep Adaptation’ paper after a year of soul searching and reading the literature around climate change. I prefer a broader framing: that does not lend to commodification and consumerisation. The conclusions are broadly the same. As Nate Hagens or anyone who undertakes an unbiased assessment will concur. The message is: we can adapt if we react quickly enough (like now) …or we can pretend… Read more »

Toby Russell
Toby Russell
Aug 31, 2019 10:43 AM
Reply to  BigB

The Reality is brute and harsh in comparison to deferred psychologies of prosperous dream realities Fear is the root cause of the majority’s refusal to face facts. Probably time limitations feed into that too, cos there’s a lot to read and plenty of alluring disinformation navigate as well. Put all that together, it’s not really all that surprising that denialism and escapism rule. Propaganda, disinfo and advertising manage our fears like an orchestra conductor, coax and tease them to an almost-frenzy and hold them there expertly, for decades and counting. Until some tipping-point number of us confront our fears and overcome them, one by one, and then start facing facts maturely and calmly, the slippery slope will be in control of our vector downwards. In my view, the gravity of the situation is only part of what needs to be disseminated. More important by far right now is the vision… Read more »

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 30, 2019 6:51 PM
Reply to  PSJ

No shit! We need to get Judith Butler over here to translate.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 9:21 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

Seamus, if memory serves me right, did you used to post on Naked Capitalism by any chance?

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 31, 2019 9:05 AM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Yes, that was me. I’ve followed NC for years now and often post there. I generally like their coverage of finance and economics, even if they are a little too Remainer for me.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 11:05 AM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

I’m afraid Ms Smith’s decision to accuse me of Straw manning when trying to explain to readers that using Jonathan Freedland critiques of Corbyn’s attitude to the Brexit negotiations to reinforce her own analysis was not a decent thing to do given Freedland’s personal animosity towards Corbyn, having been slammed down by her, I decided to move on, which is a shame as many of the Posters were agreeable to me.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 31, 2019 4:21 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Now that NC seems to be moving toward backing the Hong Kong protests, I might soon be gone as well. It’s getting so hard to find honest leftists who aren’t taken in by the hoopla these days!

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 5:17 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

Just added a line or two about it – unlike Yves, I’m in Hong Kong, have travelled and worked extensively across Asia Pac, even witnessed an actual Coup firsthand in Bangkok and I’ll attest to the fact that our freedoms and liberties in HK are greater than in Singapore – christ, Singapore censors all media via the law courts, so what the MSM wish to project, and what’s the actuality are two entirely different things – I may try and get on MOATS Sunday to give an update.

BigB
BigB
Aug 31, 2019 12:02 AM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

I do actually apologise: but I’ve seen the Spectacle bandied about (EdCurtin used it) …I presumed people would be more informed about Debord. What I am less apologetic about is that the finest criticism of capitalism can be put under the broad banner heading of the ‘Continental Tradition’. Apart from rich, nuanced, and trenchant in-depth criticism: there is a rich invented-vocabulary. There was a reason for that: and it was not abstruseness. It was a reaction to the strictures of the objective analytic tradition, behaviourism, and post-Freudian psychoanalytics …which pretty much destroyed the human spirit.

Note to self: I must not refer to logocentrism or anything rhizomatic …what was that? A ‘body without organs’? 🙂

crank
crank
Aug 30, 2019 5:07 PM
Reply to  BigB

Unfortunately: not enough biomass was laid down prehistorically – and not enough dinosaurs died – for us to have a meaningful debate about prorogation.

That made me laugh out loud.

Does it matter though ‘how we go down’ ?

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 5:21 PM
Reply to  BigB

Thanks for the post, most instructive and have made similar points to you that Brexit is but Pantomime, a grand Bait & Switch exercise that does nothing to ensure a minimum level of life for our kids – I usually read John Michael Greer on these issues – a great shame he closed down the Archdruid Report.

crank
crank
Aug 30, 2019 6:32 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

@Chris
You know Greer still writes at ecosophia.net ?

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 6:47 PM
Reply to  crank

Indeed, however I preferred his musing on the Archdruid Report, which I enjoyed greatly, and of course visit his latest Blog, his musing simplifying matters that BiGB has discussed on this thread.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 30, 2019 6:53 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Good news for you, my friend: John Michael Greer is back in business! His new blog is located at: https://www.ecosophia.net/

Brian Steere
Brian Steere
Aug 30, 2019 2:37 PM

When I read some of the totally ad hom above set against Johnson I desisted of giving any support of siding with it. I do not support the system of an unelected, unrepresentative, and unaccountable EU technocracy. But not so as to be delivered straight into a US and IS ‘Deal’. Many in the EU model- despite its modus operandi – hold views in which humanity is extended and given laws of protection that can be used to hold off corporate deceits that break in to plunder or capture capture assets under regulatory protection – when the social cost is deemed to high. The US model is without social conscience or the pretence of one. (I am not referring to individuals of any nation). My MP is not standing for re-election. He is painfully aware of the brutal and callous disregard for the rights of ordinary people and is of… Read more »

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 30, 2019 4:20 PM
Reply to  Brian Steere

Sorry, but “the part of the law that is just” has been smothered to death by the forces behind our government. What would you do if something, (or someone) dear to you was smothered to death by the government? “Live” the memory? – Is that all? Our level of tolerance, acceptance, crooching and stooping regarding those who corrupt The Law of the Land by now far surpasses Stockholm Syndrome proportions. “IF the Law of the Land is corrupted…” ??? That’s a good one. Detesting what has become of our government is not at all the same as “becoming the thing you hate”, a phrase which is often used as an excuse for inaction on crucial matters. When the government becomes a monster, as it has done, it is any decent, rational person’s duty to detest it. We are no longer talking here about Right vs. Left, Tory vs. Labour, or… Read more »

Brian Steere
Brian Steere
Aug 30, 2019 5:48 PM
Reply to  wardropper

Wardropper, the law that is Just is not ‘outside You’. But a corrupted law rules out such a recognition – while it passes off as a mind of power and protection. Our awareness of truth is vulnerable, not truth itself. So the true and original quality or meaning of ‘just’ and the true and original quality or meaning of the ‘law’ are lost or covered over by a corruption of thought – given allegiance and sacrifice. By all means hate the lie – but so as to abhor or empty yourself of it. Withdraw allegiance and give it disregard – put it behind you. Not in front of you as projected onto your hate figure. The only way I see this happening is to give your whole regard to and alignment in what resonates wholly true – (not an invitation for your mind to go into complexity about concepts of… Read more »

milosevic
milosevic
Aug 31, 2019 1:00 AM
Reply to  Brian Steere

blah, blah, blah, love your oppressors, blah, blah, blah, everyone is guilty so no one is guilty, blah, blah, blah.

Well, I glad we could clear up that confusion. Don’t worry, and go back to sleep — the proper authorities know what’s best for you.

Brian Steere
Brian Steere
Aug 31, 2019 9:27 AM
Reply to  milosevic

Milosevic , love because it is the deepest truth of who you are – not because you meet conditions and circumstances that offend a current and limited understanding. Love is the capacity to be with ‘what is’ to the point of recognising what is true and being truly moved. You choose to teach guilt and invalidation as a currency of exchange by engaging the ‘put-down’ of ridicule and smear of my person – instead of engaging relational communication and teaching a love of shared worth. But I don’t have to ‘learn’ what you teach by reciprocation in like coin, nor join in supporting you in your belief that you must invalidate another to gain power over them. All thought and act has consequence at some level and cause and effect is the most fundamental aspect of the law with regard to a core sanity from which to live and be.… Read more »

milosevic
milosevic
Aug 31, 2019 11:22 AM
Reply to  Brian Steere

whoever pays for the development of these AI text-bots should really demand their money back. this gobbledygook isn’t fooling anybody. the morons at the zionist troll farms produce much better disinfo than this, and probably for far less money.

Brian Steere
Brian Steere
Aug 31, 2019 5:16 PM
Reply to  milosevic

From your past commentary I had wondered whether you were the zionist troll – knowingly or otherwise. But by your fruits shall they be known. Even from your own mouth! Love of hate is not at all a contradiction to those who hate to love. But it cannot be altogether concealed of its appeal to anyone who loves truth more than their own private self-vindication. You, milosevic, at least have a plausibly deniable basis for refusing and evading communication with me, asserting malicious intent to me while at the same time un-personing me of a human existence. In publicly accusing me of being a paid human disinfo and divide agent or a robotic algorithm – or both at once (?) – you include no basis to substantiate your call to join you in hate – because that is what it is -excepting you have no intention of understanding or engaging… Read more »

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 4, 2019 1:47 PM
Reply to  Brian Steere

” …we might consider…” but the again we might not.

Brian Steere
Brian Steere
Sep 4, 2019 4:04 PM

Yes I considered an off guardian open thread on what exactly constitutes ‘trolling’ and disinfo, but immediately felt it was a can of worms.
However, I see that manipulation works through the willingness to be manipulative. Suckers are sold what they are set up to want to be true because they are already ungrounded and therefore vulnerable to believe by reaction instead of pausing to consider.
Working the auto-reactive golem is the willingness to take low hanging fruit. The scammer thinks to be one up on those who give power away, but is that the self-illusion under which they are likewise deceived and hollowed out?

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 4, 2019 1:45 PM
Reply to  milosevic

caveat emptor

pablomillerunit
pablomillerunit
Sep 4, 2019 1:44 PM
Reply to  milosevic

milosevic, you are quite a blunt speaker – but sometimes brevity is the soul of wit. cheers

wardropper
wardropper
Aug 31, 2019 6:54 PM
Reply to  Brian Steere

Brian, there is much in what you say that I would not dispute, but I think we are talking about two different things that are, regrettably, worlds apart. My interest in “love” and “wisdom” are probably dearer to me than you give me credit for, but we also have a practical, physical world within which we must live and which we should do our best to leave a better place than we found it. In that regard, I will not be falsely modest and claim to have had no success within my own field, which is classical music, but then there is the personal work upon one’s own self as a human being, and I consider that to be a different, although not unrelated, or less important, task for self-aware people. One can contemplate endlessly Madame Blavatsky’s “Secret Doctrine”, for example, and become very inspired by its lofty wisdom, but… Read more »

Brian Steere
Brian Steere
Sep 1, 2019 10:42 AM
Reply to  wardropper

wardropper, I didn’t feel your reaction to some of what I wrote defined you at all. But the issues that arise – apparently between us – are unarticulated questions of an answer in waiting. The idea of leaving the world better than we came into it, has many ramifications that I see as including and leading to its destruction – at least as ending support and sustenance for human life. But how could that be except we work from inherited, acquired and developing ideas of ‘world’ and our place or purpose in it and effectively technologise deep errors in the psyche that effectively work a fearful or negatively self-fulfilling prophecy? To align in and embody a better world is the creative freedom of opening to share it, but to identify in ‘better’ by the demonisation or invalidation of our past or indeed of equally valid perspectives of others. Is the… Read more »

Mucho
Mucho
Aug 30, 2019 1:41 PM

They’re having an emergency democracy protest on the Level in Brighton tomorrow. Spits coffee all over screen, rolling on the floor, laughing in hysterics. Enjoy the show kids! Hahahaha!

Antonym
Antonym
Aug 30, 2019 12:30 PM

My favorite on Brexit is Pat Condell: https://twitter.com/patcondell

He judgment was good and funny too in the past: http://www.patcondell.net/

George
George
Aug 30, 2019 4:58 PM
Reply to  Antonym

This is the Islamophobe cheerleader for the “war on terror” who never stops talking about how nobody will let him talk.

ZigZag Wanderer
ZigZag Wanderer
Aug 30, 2019 11:37 PM
Reply to  George

I think you’re talking about Alistair Campbell

nottheonly1
nottheonly1
Aug 30, 2019 12:27 PM

There you go. When I answered the four questions on the previous article about the prorogation, I stated that the ‘conversation’ would get ugly. I received down votes for what is now quite obvious. This is an attempt to seriously divide the population. The same method has been used in the U.S. There it has been the Clinton/Trump divide. The hate for each others opposing side has grown into potential for civil war. The owner class is consolidating their powers before implementing the stripping of civil rights to protect the climate. Any distraction will be helpful – anywhere and everywhere. Sad to notice that so few can really see the bigger picture. Maybe, because it is very ugly? Sort of denial, isn’t it? As the fever is rising in the collective, something will have to give way. A human body will sweat to cool down. What will the population do?… Read more »

nottheonly1
nottheonly1
Aug 30, 2019 1:05 PM
Reply to  nottheonly1

Another example on Bella Caledonia.

Escalation is the key. If people only would know to which lock it belongs.

Tony
Tony
Aug 30, 2019 6:46 PM
Reply to  nottheonly1

The ‘owner class’ in the USA is largely anti-Trump. Thats’s why we got the Russiagate nonsense.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 11:19 AM

‘Unhinged’, I think this word sums up well those talking of ‘Coups’, which, even by the standards of Chris Mullins quill we certainly have not witnessed, unless having an additional five days holiday now constitutes a Coup in the minds of the Remainiacs, whose contempt for democratic outcomes knows no lower bound. Indeed, given one of the longest ever sitting Parliaments, one would have thought it possible that our elected Pygmies could have come up with some solution to the current impasse in Parliament, and that’s before we discuss what’s agreeable to the Brussels bureaucracy, which itself has an utter contempt for democratic outcomes that may derail the fantasy of a Federal EU, which our German peers won’t stand for given they’ll be that fantasy entities piggy bank. However, on a serous note, I’m of the opinion hysteria is counter-productive, as is brandishing EU flags whilst claiming to defend democracy… Read more »

Wazdo
Wazdo
Aug 30, 2019 11:50 AM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Your contempt for the rest of humanity shines like a beacon from Ayn Rand.

Elementor
Elementor
Aug 30, 2019 11:57 AM
Reply to  Wazdo

huh?

PSJ
PSJ
Aug 30, 2019 12:56 PM
Reply to  Wazdo

I have read Chris’s reply with care and can find no signs of contempt for humanity at all. Where do you find it?

Yarkob
Yarkob
Aug 30, 2019 5:25 PM
Reply to  PSJ

they’re playing outrage bingo.

Ayn Rand!

Racist!

i’m playing along too, now..

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 6:10 PM
Reply to  PSJ

I too have great difficulty in finding my personal contempt for humanity, unless of course having serious reservations about the EU now constitutes an hatred for humanity, in which case, I’ll rest my case, namely, that Remainiacs are deluded, no disrespect to Harry of course.

peugeott
peugeott
Aug 31, 2019 3:12 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

That nasty EU eh, oh I’ll never understand why people in Belgium or France don’t come here to our great green land , where you need to give the employer 7 days notice to go on strike, nowhere in the world has that, where a bottle of cheap wine cost £8-00 as opposed to a decent wine in France costs around two euros , 50 grammes of golden Virginia £22-00 , yet in Belgium around £9-00 , better holidays, better pensions, shorter working week,earlier retirement,a cardboard clock in parking areas as opposed to ticket machines (mostly) yes those nasty people in the EU do really screw their people up , the idiots who are blindly lead by the likes of farage who stands there with a pint in one hand and a ciggy in the other mesmerises all the leavers, you just don’t see it do you, they need us… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 4:48 PM
Reply to  peugeott

Rather intent on digging your own grave – as Denis Healey once opined: “When you’re in a hole, stop digging.” First, please don’t deceive readers and claim 50 grams of rolling tobacco can be purchased for two Euro’s, not even in Bulgaria can you purchase 50 grams for 2 Euro’s, and that’s before excise tax/duty tax becomes harmonised fully under the Lisbon Treaty. As for domestic wages within all EU member states, this is nothing to do with the EU and there are no EU minimum pay Directives, so a bit of a straw man as far as worker salaries go – I’ll go further, go talk to contractors in Scunthorpe steelworks who’s businesses are owned by German entities, the German being quite happy to embrace UK lack employment laws and screw UK workers out of benefits – this has happened three times to my brother in a decade. When… Read more »

peugeott
peugeott
Aug 31, 2019 5:04 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

I put £2 for 50 gramms golden Virginia? I’ll try again it’s£22-00 in Asda, 9 euros in Belgium which is what I posted I’m sure, try reading it instead of scurrying around impatiently trying to reply , I find it hard to follow you you appear to agree then call the EU and then call this shithole ( rightly) I ‘m at a loss what it is you’re after, but one thing is certain, you and I will never agree, and I have better things to do like reading Naomi Klien at the moment, so I wish you well .

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 31, 2019 5:26 PM
Reply to  peugeott

It’s very simple, conditions in the UK have got worse for the Average Joe since 1976, and this has happened whilst the UK has been a member of the EEC/EU – I don’t lie and don’t blame the EU for the UKs dire predicament, I will state clearly though that being a member of the Club of Rome has not prevented the dystopia that is the UK, and, under the Lisbon Treaty, we are unlikely to be able to change much, which is why I prefer to get the UK House in order without hinderance from Brussels, and for that matter, Washington DC.

harry stotle
harry stotle
Aug 30, 2019 12:36 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

It is pretty ignorant to label critics of Johnson as ‘remainiacs’ because they fear the consequences of no-deal (presumably the key reason why Johnson has prorogued parliament). Since few of us are constitutional experts and legal challenges have been made it remains to be seen if Johnson’s tactic to bundle no-deal over the line is constitutionally sound – it might be, its that we cannot be absolutely certain today. Anyway, maybe this is what taking control back amounts to, parliamentary shenanigans, a complete lack of trust and festering social divisions. Of course no cabinet member stood up to explain the 180 degree turn they have made, even though several of them had previously acknowledged the likely economic downside that would ensue with no-deal – perhaps because most modern politicians do not let things like truth, evidence or principle get in the way of their grubby opportunism (if you don’t like… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 12:47 PM
Reply to  harry stotle

Harry,
By Remainiacs I’m usually referring to Centrists, whom I detest with as much venom as Tories – it is not my right to instruct you how to vote, or deny your vote. On the other hand Centrists want to deny 17.4 million votes, which is very anti-democratic in my humble opinion.

As for valid concerns, well we both hold these, however, I don’t think running ‘Operation Fear’ is a good way of assuaging said concerns, particularly in light of 130K deaths associated with austerity, an austerity built into the Euro Project whether you like this fact or not. And I don’t blame Brussels for these deaths, but this does not absolve it from the economic hardships its imposed elsewhere to shore up the Single Currency.

Adam Dubock
Adam Dubock
Aug 30, 2019 2:00 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Agree with Harry. I don’t understand why so many Leavers are so up for no deal. It is a mass exercise in self harm. It’s not going to benefit anyone other than the super rich, businesses will go under and many jobs will be lost, but so many leavers are gleefully backing it. Surely we want to leave the EU because we believe it will benefit us to leave. If the benefits aren’t there then what’s the point? Unless most Leaver’s reasons for leaving are primarily xenophobic?

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 2:44 PM
Reply to  Adam Dubock

Adam, I think we are discussing a Transitional Deal at this juncture in time, rather than any further Trade Agreement with the EU – thus far, since the enactment of Article 50 in March 2017 Parliament has had more 2.5 years to come to an agreement acceptable to the House, we’ve had an actual GE in July 2017 with both major UK Parties committed to upholding the 2016 Result and numerous hours of Parliamentary time tied up with this process – in the meantime many of the Left has called for a fresh GE, given the HoC has failed in its duty, namely ensuring an orderly withdrawal of the UK from EU Institutions and Treaties, whilst catering to the welfare of the nation itself – which is quite difficult with neoliberal crazies in power. Lets place fault where fault actually exists, namely Parliament, rather than have a go at the… Read more »

Mr A Dubock
Mr A Dubock
Aug 30, 2019 3:48 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Well yes, everyone is sick to death of it and it is understandable that people just want to ‘get on with it’. It’s just a shame that with the country split (almost) in half, voters/media/Parliament had no interest in compromise. A ‘soft Brexit’ or ‘best Brexit possible’ seemed like the obvious solution to me, but Corbyn saw his popularity decimated for taking this position, for being indecisive/a ‘fence sitter’/a ‘Brexit enabler’, but now this stubbornness on both sides looks to be leading us to no deal. And that will be Corbyn’s fault too of course!

Natasha
Natasha
Aug 30, 2019 2:52 PM
Reply to  Adam Dubock

People would prefer a deal obviously but they feel as if no-deal is being used as an excuse to block implementing the vote, and they’re angry.

Mr A Dubock
Mr A Dubock
Aug 30, 2019 4:06 PM
Reply to  Natasha

Understandably angry at the delay of the implementation of Brexit, but maybe a little misguided (with the help of the right-wing media) in thinking that Boris’s march towards no deal is somehow sticking it to the man, and seems like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 30, 2019 7:01 PM
Reply to  Mr A Dubock

A pro-Brexit hardliner would probably rather liken it to a cutting off your arm to escape a ravenous crocodile–painful, but necessary for survival.

kevin morris
kevin morris
Aug 31, 2019 12:23 PM
Reply to  Mr A Dubock

As a socialist, I don’t take anything at face value from right wing media. Rather, I listened very intently to the warning of Tony Benn and others in 1975 that once in we might never be allowed to leave. As for ‘cutting your nose of to spite your face’, I’m old enough to remember warnings of disaster from supporters and oppnents of Common Maarket membership. Those who warn of the end of civilisation as we know it have axes to grind. Europe is an economic basket case and the sooner we leave, the sooner we can start to heal our own economic position. That has nothing whatsoever to do with cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face.

Mr A Dubock
Mr A Dubock
Aug 31, 2019 2:53 PM
Reply to  kevin morris

Not sure Tony Benn would have voted leave if it was with no deal and the country in the hands of a Conservative Government further to the right than he could have possibly imagined. Not sure when and how you think we are going to ‘heal’ our economic position, which in my view is going to get worse.

ark
ark
Sep 1, 2019 2:49 PM
Reply to  Adam Dubock

This demand for a “deal”, which will never be good enough, no matter what it is, is just a device to prevent Brexit, simple as that. It is not made in good faith.

Mr A Dubock
Mr A Dubock
Sep 1, 2019 7:41 PM
Reply to  ark

For some yes, but for others, such as Corbyn, they wanted to leave with a good deal, and are opposing no deal because it will make this country more shit. No one on here has yet explained why no deal would be worth doing. Other than suggesting the probable fact that regardless of the outcome of Brexit’, we are all fucked anyway.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 30, 2019 4:08 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

“Centrists, whom I detest with as much venom as Tories”

Back in the REAL world, facists have killed countless tens of millions in wars over the last century or so, they even used nuclear weapons to vapourise people. On the other end of the political spectrum, the communists and other far left zealots have killed as many, if not far more than the fascists.

Can you understand why the psychlologically healthy, balanced, rational, human beings of the centre, or “centrists” as you call them, may strongly dislike and be afraid of the your sociopaths and pychopaths of the far right and far left? No, thought not.

Roland Spansky
Roland Spansky
Aug 30, 2019 4:17 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Ok, quick lesson.

The centrists are the new fascists, or really the old fascists. It’s not Left or Right any more, it’s authoritarian versus freedom. The media apparatus and most of the NGOs and government bodies have embraced fascism almost without knowing it. Bit by bit in a creep-up. The state = fascism now in the West. The Center = fascism. Almost every talking head on TV is embracing a degree or more of fascism.

The polarity scare of extremism is just a way of making centrist fascism more appealing and safe, and also to implement censorship. Call a site such as this ‘extreme Left’ or ‘hard Right’ and bam shut it down. They’re already doing it dude, look around.

This is the 101 of alternative politics.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 30, 2019 7:08 PM
Reply to  Roland Spansky

Exactly right, Roland. There’s no left vs. right anymore, just top vs. bottom. And the top now calls itself ‘the center’.

Mr A Dubock
Mr A Dubock
Aug 30, 2019 5:37 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

The centrists support ‘liberal interventionism’, which has also caused millions of deaths so I don’t think you can take the moral high ground. I think the problem with centrists is they can’t see who the enemy really are, or don’t want to.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 6:22 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Frank,
Again, hate to rain on your parade, but please acknowledge that its neocons and Centrists (neoliberals) who have unleashed most of the death and destruction our World has witnessed since the mid-90s – do you recollect Bomber Benn (Hilary Benn) demanding we bomb Syria back to the storage?
Allegedly he’s a Socialist, and if you believe that I’ll sell you Westminster Bridge.
Seriously, learn who your enemy is, its certainly not the ERG fanatics, who’s purpose we know, its the Centrists/neoliberals who inhabit a majority of seats in our Parliament, much as they do in the US Congress/Senate.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Aug 30, 2019 8:54 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Try doing a body count since 1914 and you’ll get a result that grossly outweighs your PoV

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 9:24 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Luckily for me Frank I read Modern History & Politics as a mature student at Uni, also hold a MA in Politics and a PGCE for teaching adults, specifically those studying Access courses, so quite aware of twentieth century history, much of which I lived through.

Natasha
Natasha
Aug 30, 2019 1:07 PM
Reply to  harry stotle

Excuse me, are you blind? Have you checked out the food banks? The starving kids? The people sleeping in doorways? The reamed out city centres?

How unbelievably dense do you have to be to think this is IN SPITE OF THE EU?

Austerity is official EU fucking policy!

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 1:45 PM
Reply to  Natasha

Natasha,
Austerity is now built in to EU Treaties, specifically with regards European Economic Union, or in layman terms the Single Currency – the UK is not a member of the Euro Currency, which by its very nature and the monetary policy followed by the ECB inflicts perpetual austerity, and the Stability and Growth Pact does apply to the UK, however, given we were not in breach of these Rules UK austerity was imposed arbitrarily by the Tories and Lib Dems via Westminster – by contract, austerity in the Baltic States and Southern periphery is very much associated with the Euro Project, as Greece can attest too.

Natasha
Natasha
Aug 30, 2019 1:55 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

What we’re basically saying is austerity is an occidental policy, or maybe a global policy, with a couple of exceptions, because the same handful of financial institutions controls almost all the major power blocks. So, stay or leave the EU, we get austerity.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 2:54 PM
Reply to  Natasha

Natasha,
You are shifting goal posts, however, the prevaiing global economic order is one heavily infused with what we now term ‘neoliberalism’, which by its very nature shifts wealth upwards with no corresponding gains for a majority, we are also correct in stating that the present Lisbon Treaty has neoliberalism etched in stone within its text, specifically with regards closer economic integration, of which the Euro is a major pillar. As an individual, I’m opposed to neoliberalism and the inherent austerity built into this system for the majority, which is why when given a chance, I use my vote to undermine neoliberalism, which is one reason I’ve issued support to a Jeremy Corbyn to ensure we can start turning the tide of neoliberalism back – under no circumstances do I issue any support whatsoever to any body or Institution that inflicts austerity on a majority of the population.

BigB
BigB
Aug 30, 2019 3:20 PM
Reply to  Natasha

Natasha:

Austerity is a permanent contingent factor entailed by entropy. As entropy increases: so does austerity (see above). It is an inescapable fundament of reality. One we chose to ignore when we designed our economic system.

Given all the anxiety it causes when our conceptual expectations and conditional predictions of reality do not match reality: you’d have thought we’d figure it out by now …by active inference or prediction error optimisation. We forgot the Laws of Physics. Doh!

Roland Spansky
Roland Spansky
Aug 30, 2019 4:20 PM
Reply to  BigB

Austerity is a policy. It’s a plan to move wealth from the many to the few. It’s robbery and exploitation and murder. Why the hell are you presenting this as a law of physics?

So, what? We just accept being despoiled into the greatest wealth disparity since the 18th century? Because physics?

crank
crank
Aug 30, 2019 5:17 PM
Reply to  Roland Spansky

It’s both.
The pie is shrinking and the greedy grab all the more fervently.
The fact of the increasing disparity of wealth doesn’t negate the fact of the global entropic crisis – which is politically unresolvable.

BigB
BigB
Aug 30, 2019 5:28 PM
Reply to  Roland Spansky

Because we ignore physical reality – including the Laws of Physics – it becomes an inevitable consequence that things will turn out like this. The absolute proof being that they are as they are. Austerity as a policy did not just materialise uncaused. There was an underlying causation. Which basically equates to us imagining we can impose any expansive lifestyle on physical reality we want. And physical reality will duly respond. Up to a point, perhaps. But we are way past that point and locked in a downward entropic and debt deflatory spiral. To which we try and impose the same out of synch reality imposition that caused the downward spiral. We cannot keep expanding. I spend my whole life saying this. We cannot. We cannot. At some point things have to contract: its the physical reality governed by the fundamental Laws: such as the Second Law of Thermdynamics. We… Read more »

ANDREW CLEMENTS
ANDREW CLEMENTS
Aug 30, 2019 4:43 PM
Reply to  Natasha

Austerity is feudalism on steroids

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 30, 2019 12:50 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

If you’re so concerned about holidays.maybe you should consider those who are about to lose theirs, ie , those protected under the working time directive, who are guaranteed 28 days holiday, and the fascists have been trying to get rid of it for years.

Natasha
Natasha
Aug 30, 2019 1:04 PM
Reply to  Peugeot

Oh do please wake up. The vast majority of people working unskilled and many skilled inside the EU are on zero hour contracts which mean they get absolutely NO holiday provision or any other benefits. That’s the EU. All talk, no trousers.

Pretends it’s about unity and equal opportunities, in reality i’s an austerity-supervisor, run by the IMF and the World Bank to ensure conformity to strict exploitation policies. Free movement of labour and the single currency mean wages forced down to lowest common denominator and unions are a memory.

These are facts. They are there to be seen in the results. Look at Greece, Spain. Look at the constitution of the EU! Look at how it sided with nazis in Ukraine. It’s another globalist front for mass exploitation. Nothing else.

Peugeot
Peugeot
Aug 30, 2019 3:04 PM
Reply to  Natasha

That is not true, there are very little zero hour contracts within the EU, in fact in Belgium you must be paid a minimum of six hours, so you wake up, and stopped being blinded by the elite

Natasha
Natasha
Aug 30, 2019 3:31 PM
Reply to  Peugeot

What are you on about? The ‘elite’ are anti-EU? Oh yes, that’s why so many of them were funding Remain.

And in the UK pretty much everyone I know is on zero-hours. EU had no problem with that.

Point is in or out of EU we get austerity. The same banksters run the show either way. The idea the EU is some kind of fraternal dream is a joke. The EU is an anti-democratic uberstate run by the IMF, so is the USA. Even China and Russia are barely different.

peugeott
peugeott
Aug 31, 2019 8:30 AM
Reply to  Natasha

yes like your god farage he’s not an elite is he celebrating his birthday at the Ritz hotel owned by two pricks who own the Telegraph and promoter of leave I mean they would obviously care about the man in the street thats apart from Lord Snooty , redwood , hairy arse Johnson ,ugly patel McVeigh,you fools are having your pockets picked whilst watching the show and you can’t see it, you say the EU does nothing about it, you complain when they interfere with our laws, and don’t even go there with this garbage ‘undemocratic, the last PM was unelected, this Oaf who is occupying the PM office was elected by about 90,000 rich old people many who recently joined , who elects the head of state, the Lords, Civil Service, who elected Farage what’s his manifesto ? you need to wake up

peugeott
peugeott
Aug 31, 2019 9:40 AM
Reply to  Natasha

That’s not to mention the other rabid right wing lover of workers rights another one of your gods Raab probably the most right wing imbecile that’s had a seat in government, you leavers have done a magnificent job, well done.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Aug 30, 2019 10:17 PM
Reply to  Peugeot

Well, in Germany they now have ‘Mini-jobs’ (<450 Euros per month) and pretty much all countries in Europe have free-lance contract-employment which is terminable at will and with no benefits, so that leaves an awful lot of Europeans who are more concerned with getting enough work hours rather than with getting enough vacation days.

BTW, yours is precisely the kind of argument that tends to make Remainers seem a little out of touch with current realities.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 2:59 PM
Reply to  Peugeot

Peugeot,
talking about paid holiday leave in the UK, are you stating it was Brussels which gifted us with said holidays, or the struggles of Trades Unionists and the Left that ensured UK business gave workers time off – my colleagues in Germany by the way get 6 weeks annual paid leave, whilst in neoliberal UK we are lucky to have paid holidays at all, never mind a full time job that affords us an ability to have a holiday.
In a nutshell, all worker gains in the UK were bitterly fought for and Brussels was not involved in this combat I’m afraid to say, given regal nation time (paid leave) was a regular feature of UK life in the 50s and 60s, a time may I remind when we had full employment and strong Trades Unions and Trade Union rights.

peugeott
peugeott
Aug 30, 2019 3:17 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

I’m sorry, but you were NOT entitled to holidays by law in this country, it was purely a concession by the employer, in fact GUY MOTORS was one of the first to give its employees holidays, the 28 days holidays you receive now came with the working time directive, and only those covered by it receive them, and there are thousands that don’t, anyone employed in fishing ,fire fighting, ambulance,s water ,airports dock,s etc don’t qualify, when we first were granted these holidays we we given three weeks and our kind employers then decided to use bank holidays to make up the three weeks, and then the EU forced 28 days per year, sadly the trade unions gave us very little, maybe locally but not nationally, we never won one national strike, there are no upper temperatures ,or lower temperatures in which we can refuse to work in, they can… Read more »

Natasha
Natasha
Aug 30, 2019 3:48 PM
Reply to  peugeott

but we got this way while inside the EU.

IN OR OUT NO DIFFERENCE.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Aug 30, 2019 4:24 PM
Reply to  peugeott

Peugeot,

Let me get this straight, the Working Time Regulations of 1998, made law by Tony Blair and extended upon in 2003 via EU Directives codified what for many was industry standard in the UK, standards won by Trades Unions for their membership – of course, unscrupulous employers don’t want to gift workers paid leave, but even in 1984 with massive unemployment in South Wales my employers gave a minimum 21 days annual paid leave, two weeks of which had to be taken when the company closed for annual maintenance – so, whilst EU Directives codified paid leave, to suggest no paid leave existed prior to 1998 is plain daft, although, and as conceded bad apples existed then as they do now.

Mind you, discussions about paid leave are rather a mute point if unemployed or under employed, as many in the UK actually are.
Full details here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/1684/contents/made