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DISCUSS: UK General Election Before Christmas?

A rapid volte-face from the Labour Party means the UK may be headed for a Christmas time General Election.

For those of you following, this is the second proposed GE in a just a few weeks. Labour voted down the other, claiming that they would only vote for an early GE once No Deal was off the table, and an extension had been approved by the EU.

The equivalent of declaring “I’ll only drive this car if you take the steering wheel off first!”

Nevertheless, those two eventualities came to pass. The UK will not be leaving the EU until January 31st 2020, and they won’t be able to leave without a deal.

Why this is at all a desirable state of affairs I do not understand, but Labour have got what they want, so Corbyn is prepared to back a new GE.

The rest of Labour seems less sure, whether that’s because they fear losing or are still actively trying to prevent Corbyn becoming PM is unclear. For whatever reason, a portion of the PLP is still (allegedly) trying to prevent the election happening, or even resigning in protest.

If it does go ahead, then what?

Well, unfortunately from Labour’s POV, that’s nothing like as clear as it was. A few months ago I would have said Labour would win at a canter, but they’ve busied themselves in self-humiliation since then.

Whether through incompetence or design Labour have spent a decent amount of the last 12 months actively disenfranchising their base.

The on-going campaign to undermine the Palestine issue by forcing anti-Israeli sentiment to mean “antisemitism” has weakened the Party’s standing, as has the loss of Chris Williamson – a charismatic and forceful speaker on the side of Corbyn’s socialist manifesto.

More than that, the slow and steady betrayal of all Lexit voters in the North will really hurt Labour in what is traditionally their stronghold areas.

In short, Labour’s chances rely on two things:

1) That pro-Brexit working-class voters in the North can look past the Brexit issue and vote on austerity and protecting the NHS instead

OR

2) That each Northen vote lost is countered with a Vegan teenager from Brighton voting for the first time.

Neither seems likely.

That said, and despite deep misgivings about an awful lot of “progressive” causes, the Green New Deal, banning Private Schools, the Gender Pay Gap and all sorts of other issues…Labour stills seems the only way to vote.

They are the only party (notionally) dedicated to ending austerity, decreasing military spending and increasing taxation on big companies and the super-rich.

Only Labour have a shot, or even the ambition, to actually make things better for everyone. No one else will even try. The Tories and LibDems will actively make it worse.

Somehow, it’s hard to see that saving Labour. Beset as they are with an ever dishonest and corrupt media, and a PLP that doesn’t want to be in government.

In 2017, despite the constant press doom and gloom, it really felt that Labour had momentum and opportunity. It’s hard to sense that same energy this time around.

Saying that, the Tories could easily lose a lot of Leave voters to the Brexit Party, or hard remainers to the Lib Dems.

It’s hard to see anyone coming out of this with a clear majority. Assuming it isn’t rigged.

  • Will there be an early election?
  • Will the Brexit Party split the Tory vote?
  • How will the Lib Dems fare?
  • Does Labour stand a chance?
  • Does it matter anymore?
  • Will the UK ever really leave the EU?

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lundiel
lundiel
Nov 2, 2019 6:43 PM

What’s going on with Ch4 News and Tory BIM (uncle Tom) whatever? Every night he’s been the Tory spokesman on everything while saying nothing and looking pc.

bob
bob
Nov 1, 2019 11:46 AM

Vote tory = get brino
Vote labour = get customs union + second referendum
Vote libdump = get rabies

People, this is your time to rid us of these tribes and declare a new national agenda = for the people, by the people

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Nov 1, 2019 8:31 AM

To all the lesser evil brigade. I think it needs pointing out that the UK is an imperialist country, and it will remain an imperialist country no matter who is in power. Under a Labour government we will continue to be pro-zionist – Labour Friends of Israel – pro-NATO, pro-Trident, Russophobic, under US occupation, and under EU-occupation. The permanent state bureaucracy will continue to hold power with governments of the day playing the role of legitimation.

You see Labour was designed to take office, not to take power or formulate and implement policies. It has effectively transmuted into a conservative bureaucracy it’s goal being to survive and expand, like all bureaucracies.

”The followers of a warrior or faith once they have achieved power, tend to degenerate with particular ease into a thoroughly commonplace caste of office holders.” (Max Weber – Politics as a Vocation)

Neo-liberalism and the markets will still retain their power without any substantive change in policy. After all we must be ‘competitive’ and prostrate ourselves to the dictates of the global market. Labour has drifted steadily to the right since 1945 and the process has become irreversible. Any connexion it ever had with socialism – which actually never did – has long since past. Blair administered the coup de grace and there will be no going back.

You should know by now that voting changes nothing. But there’s none so blind …

vexarb
vexarb
Nov 1, 2019 7:43 AM

Corbyn could take some tips from Socialist Syria for his election campaign. Dr.Assad’s latest interview, what are his plans for Syria after the years laid waste by the AZC occupation [edited by Vexarb to fit a UK context]:

“Liberate the country without taking the necessary measures to invigorate the economy will not improve things. So, as a state, we need to accelerate the rebuilding of infrastructure – like restoring electricity and other utilities, and the role of state institutions, in order to facilitate the return of the productivity cycle. Here I am not referring to major industries and large projects. Even before the New Labour tried to turn us into a neo-Liberal party, we had the view that large projects are important but they are not the solution. For a country like Britain, the strength of its economy lies in small and medium-sized enterprises. This will help invigorate the economy.

The problem is that some people wait; they say, Let us wait to see what happens. If we are to wait, then we cannot expect to see the signs of a resurgent economy. What will be the signs? — industries which have emerged, workshops that have returned to work. The number of British people who have been impoverished is higher than the development of the economy. The challenge now is to integrate these people into the economic cycle. Can we do it? of course, we can. We should not say that “the system” or “circumstances” prevent us. No! we have some laziness, we have some constraints and sometimes we do not have the vision of how to move. And by We, I mean all of Us as a Society, as a State and as Citizens. The state is responsible to provide the necessary conditions and the infrastructure, but it cannot open all the shops, workshops, and industries.”

vexarb
vexarb
Nov 1, 2019 7:45 AM
Reply to  vexarb

Correction: _renationalizing_ electricity and other utilities

O! for a post-posting Edit button.

Ruth
Ruth
Oct 31, 2019 8:11 PM

Can the vote be rigged? I definitely think it can and it will be as there’s a major flaw in the system. After councils receive and process the postal votes with rigid checks that they are valid, the actual ballot slips in their envelopes are put into large boxes ready to be taken to the counting centre on election day. There the envelopes are opened and the ballot slips are mixed with the polling station votes. They are counted to check that the exact number of votes registered at the council offices matches the number of votes. If a government was so-minded/desperate for a certain result, surely it would be very simple to get its agents to enter council offices and swap boxes making sure that the total number of votes correspond to the number of council registrations of the postal votes sometime before election day. Postal votes make up about 20% of the vote. If postal votes were counted separately, this would eliminate major rigging as their result would be expected to tally more or less with the polling station vote.

Ruth
Ruth
Oct 31, 2019 8:13 PM
Reply to  Ruth

This practice would be especially effective in marginals.

Antonym
Antonym
Nov 1, 2019 5:12 AM
Reply to  Ruth

Can US or UK public votes be rigged? Easily. Why are these procedures not updated / modernized? Because they are so convenient to rig by the ruling 1%.

Geoff
Geoff
Oct 31, 2019 7:50 AM

What is this ‘great deal ‘ the fat slob keeps talking about, who is it great for?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Oct 31, 2019 11:09 AM
Reply to  Geoff

Voices from the grave, or actually, a shallow ditch where he laid down to die (& lie).

Antonym
Antonym
Oct 31, 2019 1:51 AM

Except for “different frank” nobody of On- or Off Guardian seems to recall this guy Farage and his Brexit party. Maybe when the Christmas general election results are out memories will be refreshed.
Joint operation “Omerta”?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Oct 31, 2019 11:11 AM
Reply to  Antonym

Waiting for Dom ‘young Strangelove’ to give him his marching orders.

Doctortrinate
Doctortrinate
Oct 30, 2019 10:46 PM

I can’t enter into it…..not even if I wanted, it repulses me, they repulse me, is a grotesque freakshow where the succuba squirm for their portion of the scummy pie of unnatural complications, the bigger the portion the greater the position of persausion, being confusion to cast among the people who’ll once again fall behind them, staggering around all crapulous from their rancid secretions……am constantly amazed folk keep on ‘falling’ for it

Peter Swires
Peter Swires
Oct 30, 2019 5:43 PM

My first comment here. One thing that really puzzles me about The Guardian is the mass of negative comments about Jeremy Corbyn from its readers. Every below-the-line discussion is just full of posts saying ‘Corbyn is useless’, ‘Corbyn is unelectable’, ‘Labour don’t stand a chance of getting into power until they ditch Corbyn’, etc.

It puzzles me because I’ve read The Guardian for years, and I would have thought Corbyn’s values were EXACTLY those of most Guardian readers; I’d have thought Corbyn was the ‘dream politician’ for most of them.

This all makes me wonder if these comments are a smear campaign by The Guardian itself, and that most of the posters are shills. I was always moderated whenever I wrote anything defending Corbyn, which was why I don’t post there anymore, so I know The Guardian itself doesn’t like him.

Does anyone else think there’s something suspicious about Guardian readers’ apparent dislike for Jeremy Corbyn?

John Deehan
John Deehan
Oct 30, 2019 10:55 PM
Reply to  Peter Swires

It’s odd that Rawnsley, from the Observer, frequently either refused to have a comments section or it was very limited. Yet on Sunday, there was over 5000 comments many of which were attacking Corbyn. This doesn’t surprise me nor the Guardian readers attacking Corbyn since both the Guardian and the Observer have opposed the democratic socialist Labour Party from day 1. The notion that newspapers can’t affect opinions belies the fact that advertisers spend a Kings ransom trying to persuade people to purchase their products.MSM Journalists are the inverse of advertisers.

mark
mark
Oct 30, 2019 11:31 PM
Reply to  Peter Swires

Probably just wall to wall vitriol from Hasbara Central and the Board of Deputies.

Andy
Andy
Oct 31, 2019 12:25 AM
Reply to  Peter Swires

I’ve had pro Corbyn comments removed. I think a lot of old commenters have left (or banned?) but there is definitely something suspicious about it. I just read a Polly Toynbee article and the comments below were ridiculously anti Corbyn and far more nasty than anything against Johnson. ‘Integrity initiative’ ? Also noticed a few tactical voting sites springing up that appear very suspicious in recommending Lib Dem as the tactical choice when they were about a tenth of the labour vote last time with labour only a few hundred behind the tories. Mind I’m getting so cynical now I’m thinking Theresa May getting 43% after her campaign was bloody suss.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Oct 31, 2019 1:55 AM
Reply to  Andy

The Graun purged me nearly a year ago. They seem to dislike anybody who dissents from the new editor’s narrative these days.

Peter Swires
Peter Swires
Oct 31, 2019 11:18 AM
Reply to  Peter Swires

It’s been very interesting to read the replies to my message, but I’m still really mystified. Whenever there’s an article about what the Tories are doing to people on benefits, the disabled, the homeless, etc, comments almost to a man and woman condemn what they’re doing, yet strangely, Guardian readers seek to vilify the one politician above all who’d fight against these things tooth and nail.

Guardian readers hate this Tory government with a passion, yet they happily undermine the chances of Labour – the ONLY party that has a chance of beating the Tories – just because it has Corbyn at the helm? You keep getting posts saying ‘Labour doesn’t stand a chance if it’s led by Corbyn’ but they must know that when Corbyn was selected, his vote was greater than any other two candidates’ put together. They know that at a Corbyn rally, there are people as far as the horizon, yet a rally by Owen Smith, when he was challenging Corbyn for the leadership, there were a dozen or so people and an ice-cream van.

If the people slagging off Corbyn (knowing that in doing so they’re helping to give us another hellish Tory government) are real Guardian readers, then I just don’t know anything.

My guts tell me this is a shill operation by the Guardian itself.

John Thatcher
John Thatcher
Oct 31, 2019 12:21 PM
Reply to  Peter Swires

More a combined op I should think Peter,with the LIbDems,the Blairites,the Israeli Embassy and its Zionist foot soldiers,and who knows joined together in unholy matrimony.

George Mc
George Mc
Oct 31, 2019 6:21 PM
Reply to  Peter Swires

Welcome to the phoney blow-off contingent. The aim of our Grundian “dissidents” is to voice the anger that everyone feels, get the boot into the bastards that everyone hates and suggest that “we really DO something!”…but when somebody who looks like he might actually DO something appears, denounce him as “useless”, “unelectable” etc. The Grundy is a blowhole for letting off steam against a shitty situation whilst doing everything in its power to maintain and reinforce the shit.

Peter Swires
Peter Swires
Oct 31, 2019 3:32 PM
Reply to  Peter Swires

I’ve just posted this (3.26pm) in the Guardian under Andrew Sparrow’s main election news item:

“I’m totally mystified at the full-on hostility towards Jeremy Corbyn in BTL comments.

I’ve always thought of Guardian readers as being people who hated oppression of any kind, and who consequently hated what this vile Tory Government has done to the most powerless and most vulnerable in our society – the people on benefits who have been driven to suicide or died in other ways, directly because of Tory policies. In Jeremy Corbyn we have the one Labour politician above all others who has fought this type of oppression tirelessly, all his political life, yet strangely, Guardian readers don’t have a good word to say about him.

When he was selected as leader of the Labour party, his vote was so much higher than the others’, it was almost unreal. When he was forced to run for selection again, all his rallies were just a sea of people, yet Owen Smith, the best rival Labour could come up with, had to make do with speaking to a couple of dozen people and an ice cream van. Thanks to Corbyn, the membership of the Labour party soared so rapidly, one would hardly think it possible. Yet all I seem to see in BTL comments is, ‘he’s useless’, ‘ditch him’, ‘Labour can’t win with him as leader’, etc.

If Guardian readers are mainly strongly against the Tories, this sort of rhetoric just doesn’t make sense even if the commenters are being sincere, because whatever you think of Corbyn, he’s the one campaigning to be PM, and Labour is the only party that can unseat the Tories, so in talking down Jeremy Corbyn, you’re talking Boris Johnson back into Number 10. Is that what you want? I just don’t believe it can be.

This is why I’m highly suspicious of these anti-Corbyn messages: I can’t help thinking there might be a Guardian-led organised shill campaign going on here.”

I wonder if it will be removed?

lundiel
lundiel
Oct 31, 2019 8:20 PM
Reply to  Peter Swires

Some of them (posters) were so insensed about the result of the referendum their inner selves emerged and they realised they’d been Liberals all along. When it came down to it they wanted the pound to remain artificially high and they didn’t want house prices to go down, they liked Polish plumbers and nanny’s, their “right on” lefty views didn’t see any disconnect with European economic law. They squared it with “we’ll change it from within”. Corbyn was the sore that wouldn’t heal for them and they blamed him for not letting them hide their own hipocrisy, he brought class back into the conversation, something they thought they’d left behind. A classic example of this kind of poster is AndyPandy1968 on the cartoon thread, a very angry man. Another character is fishgirl23, a bloke. This one’s a bit different, he was a Corbynite who became a remainer for upvotes, he writes sickening, sentimental fluff interspersed with sweary lists of Tory MPs failings he’s copied from other articles. There aren’t really any pro Brexit comments, the remain fanatics, assisted by each other and Guardian staff have removed them all.

lundiel
lundiel
Oct 31, 2019 9:43 PM
Reply to  lundiel

Corbyn’s position on Article 50 led them to hate him more than May. From then on he was finished and they mostly transferred their vote to the LibDems.

vexarb
vexarb
Nov 1, 2019 8:00 AM
Reply to  Peter Swires

Peter, it’s not you who have changed it’s the Manchester Guardian which morphed into the Rothschild-supervised Guardian Trust which morphed into the present Soros-financed Guardian. Ever since their cheerleading for the rape of oil-rich Iraq and oil-and-water-rich Libya and their enthusiasm for the attempt to destroy oil-and-gas-and-water-rich Syria, it has become increasingly obvious that Guardian uses the old Liberal middle class Manchester Guardian as a front for resource-war propaganda and attacks on the social fabric by Anglo Zio Capitalist financiers who control the Guardian financially.

Hence, OffG — to which you and I are now posting.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Oct 30, 2019 1:04 PM

Johnsons last pmq’s shared with Bercows and Clarks – he finally achieves something worthy and stands with giants (actually more photobombs). Meanwhile May, sitting between Ken and Alan Duncan has the sourest visage and seems like she would happily stab bobo and not return either.

There does seem a night before pointless and certain death feel from the Tory benches.

The presstitutes already having sent forth to lay down the barrage – also looking like their propoganda works will be judged post election like the haw-haws they are.
Freedland with his ‘why won’t you Labour members not listen! Get rid of Jezza?????
ITV with their raised dead Richard & Judy (repeating voices in their earpieces – “marxists! Anticapitalist! ” they agitated at Corbyn on the sofa. Whilst they ignored the blatant example of the child being deprived of medicine because of capitalist profiteering and NHS underfunding and privatisation.
Etc.
When Jezza offered to meet up with ‘oh no not another election’ Brenda from Bristol on their sofa to find out what she thought could be better in her life – they looked like they regretted their comeback. (It was comic gold).

Onivar!

different frank
different frank
Oct 30, 2019 11:53 AM

The forest was shrinking, but the Trees kept voting for the Axe, for the Axe was clever and convinced the Trees that because his handle was made of wood, he was one of them.
Turkish proverb

Barovsky
Oct 30, 2019 11:29 AM
vexarb
vexarb
Nov 1, 2019 8:17 AM
Reply to  Barovsky

From Barovsky’s link:
“More than simply undoing the damage of the Tories over the last decade, which proved so potent in 2017, Labour must now articulate a confident, alternative of Britain. One of civic pride rather than empty storefronts and betting shops, one of public and popular ownership rather than privatisation and outsourcing, one where power resides with ordinary people, not millionaires, lobbyists and newspaper owners in London.”

Sounds good; especially since power these days means financial power: Tax the Rich to empower ordinary people!

Grafter
Grafter
Oct 30, 2019 9:28 AM

Golly gosh. All these English people chattering about English Labour and Tories. Not a word about Scotland and the SNP. My what a brainwashed lot we have here. Labour are history and the Tories are tiny scabrous minority in Scotland. The break up of this delusional “United Kingdom” is on the horizon and the sooner the better.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Oct 30, 2019 11:40 AM
Reply to  Grafter

OK, I’ll bite. The SNP won’t do nearly as well as they think they are going to. There is not as much enthusiasm for indyref2 as the diehard indie supporters imagine, for better or worse.
I think we may see a resurgence of the Labour vote and a drop in the Tories. SNP will be pushed back a way.

Grafter
Grafter
Oct 30, 2019 3:07 PM

Dungroanin….Ho ! Ho ! Ho ! Ha ! Ha ! My oh my aren’t we the little establishment guru. Do you live on Mars ?

mark
mark
Oct 30, 2019 3:30 PM

More people in Scotland voted for Brexit than voted SNP.
Wanting independence and being pro EU are not synonymous.
There are pro independence people who supported Brexit.
There are anti independence people who voted remain.
Life can be a bit more complicated than the SNP would have you believe.
Having said that, I hope they get their referendum and independence.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Oct 30, 2019 8:49 AM

1945 – Out with Winnie. Up with Atlee-ite Labour.

2019 – Out with ‘mini ‘ Winnie’. Up with Atlee-ite Labour.

——-

This is the last chance for the Brits to reaffirm the post war social democratic covenant.

No return to the Downton Abbey upstairs/downstairs idyll of the aristos and super rich rentier class divide.

That is the option for the voters if they can retrieve their brains from the crass mass entertainment propoganda opium for a month and vote for the future generations- just as these voters did in 1945 by dumping the revered Churchill.

Vote for the manifesto not the transient bearers.
For your kids, grand kids and yes you too unless you want to suffer in your remaining years.

An overwhelming majority is my prediction.

Barovsky
Oct 30, 2019 9:28 AM
Reply to  Dungroanin

‘post war social democratic covenant’?

What covenant? Where have you been since 1979? The ‘social contract’ died a death decades ago with arrival of neoliberalism and the death of organised labour.

George Mc
George Mc
Oct 30, 2019 2:06 PM
Reply to  Barovsky

You beat me to it, Barovsky.

Barovsky
Oct 30, 2019 3:10 PM
Reply to  George Mc

well it’s a no-brainer isn’t it.

BTW, what did happen to the left? I’ve been looking for decades without success.

mark
mark
Oct 30, 2019 3:31 PM
Reply to  Barovsky

They got with the programme and lined their own pockets.

Barovsky
Oct 30, 2019 3:44 PM
Reply to  mark

Well for some, it’s a living, Tariq Ali for example, a professional lefty. And this is the problem, a veritable ‘mafia’ controls and determines debate, programmes and policies. I mean check out the left publishers to see what I mean.

If we ain’t democratic, how the hell can we talk about democracy for everyone else and again, it’s ALWAYS been like this.

Geoff
Geoff
Oct 31, 2019 7:53 AM
Reply to  mark

look oo-er there a flying pig

George Mc
George Mc
Oct 30, 2019 6:01 PM
Reply to  Barovsky

Ah the Left. Well many of them, possibly the majority, followed Teddie Adorno. He never forgave those uncouth proles from not delivering the revolution to him and spent the rest of his life blaming them in enormous slabs of impenetrable verbiage. And so was born a nice little earner whose main attraction is that you could live very comfortably whilst admiring your cragged uncompromising profile in the mirror next to the bust of Schoenberg.

Barovsky
Oct 30, 2019 6:13 PM
Reply to  George Mc

Hah! Think the Greek ‘left’ deceiving the electorate. Think the rest of the Euro ‘left, Spain, Germany, Portugal, France, Germany, all deceiving their citizens. Some join the talking heads circuit, get book deals, cozy jobs in corporate ‘centres of learning’, formerly called universities. Welcome to the 19th century rerun as a nightmare.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Oct 30, 2019 9:39 AM
Reply to  Dungroanin

Agree, at this precise moment in time rhetoric is a luxury we can hardly afford.

We can take it as read most Off-G readers would prefer a party/leader committed to social justice, reduced wealth inequality, increased job and home security, an end to regime change wars and a green industrial policy – but as pointed out below none of the parties, at least in their current guise will deliver this kind of utopia, not least because there are powerful economic forces that are extremely adept at protecting their class interests, and are likely to come down like a ton of bricks on any perceived threat to them.

So at heart this leaves 3 choices;
[1] support nobody, either because ‘they are all or the same’ or because they cannot deliver utopia.
[2] vote Corbyn, perhaps the final chance in generations for a moderately left of centre government.
[3] vote austerity and reinforce the present power structure which panders to the rich while regarding workers, and certainly those claiming benefits as something to be controlled and policed while corporations get on with their never-ending campaign of wealth extraction (with health care likely to be next on the privatisation agenda).

Corbyn has faults, but it does not follow that because he is not perfect he is ‘just the same’ as a Johnson, a Swinson, a Farage, or a Blair.

My advice is to vote for Corbyn today and agitate for a better future while doing so.
BTW there is little point in endlessly rehashing Jeremy’s weaknessess because it still boils down to the same 3 choices.

Barovsky
Oct 30, 2019 3:19 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

It’s a real, repeating dilemma, in fact we’ve repeated it so many times, I’ve lost count. The lesser of two evils, blah-blah-blah. When will we ever learn? Apparently not but I suppose it’s the price we pay for living in the 5th richest (imperialist) country on the planet. Thank your lucky stars that you weren’t born in El Salvador or Mali or any one of 200+ countries that made us rich and them poor.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Oct 30, 2019 4:13 PM
Reply to  Barovsky

Abstain, Corbyn or austerity – this thread is about how people will choose at the forthcoing GE.

Its clear you won’t vote for Corbyn – so by a process of elimination that leaves either austerity or abstain (neither of which helps the people of El Salvador, or Mali)

Barovsky
Oct 30, 2019 4:31 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

I think you’ve made the wrong assumption about what I might do on Dec 9. But so you think a Labour govt will help the people of Mali? Dream on. The Labour Party is an IMPERIALIST party and always has been. It ruled over the colonies just as viciously as the Tories did (Nigeria, Kenya, Cyprus, Guyana, shit the list is long, come to mind).

I think we need to distinguish between Corbyn and the Labour Party. Yes many of us will assume they’re voting for Corbyn when they vote Labour but they ain’t! They’re voting for the other half of the political class that runs the capitalist state (and not very well either).

Will I vote Labour? Probably, gritting my teeth and cursing Corbyn for being a political coward who can’t stand up for his own (assumed) convictions. Who, by the time he does enter 10 Downing Street will have pissed away most the things that made us vote for him, just like 2017.

And like many, I ‘ll be voting FOR Corbyn but AGAINST Johnson and for no other reason.

Barovsky
Oct 30, 2019 4:33 PM
Reply to  Barovsky

Errata: I meant so say, that I WON’T be voting for Corbyn but AGAINST Johnson. Apologies.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Oct 30, 2019 10:49 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

It doesn’t seemed to have dawned on many of the posters that the notion of taking part in an election/referendum meant that the result was declared valid when the majority who voted carried the day; however this is no longer the case and can be effectively abrogated when the result went the wrong way. I suppose it started with Blair. We voted for a social-democratic administration in 1997 and got neo-liberalism in successive doses. Then there was the EU referendum. In this instance the outcome had already been decided – common practice in the EU – and the vote didn’t go the ”right” way and was therefore invalid.

So voting seems to have become simply a symbolic spectacle, a bit of political entertainment, but fundamentally a farce, and an insult to the intelligence.

Elections used to mean something, there was the red corner and the blue corner. Now they are simply exercises in pseudo-consultation.

Such always is the case whenever the dog-eared argument about ‘lesser evil’ does the rounds. Thus the Labour friends of Israel, is a lesser evil than the Conservative Friends of Israel. Labour’s support of NATO – taken for granted – is a lesser evil than the Tories support of NATO. Labour’s support for Trident is a lesser evil than the Tories support of Trident. On and on the appeasement and the sell-outs go.

Of course Corbyn as with all social-democratic leaders has bottled it on any issue of principle that he may once he once held. Of course he is carrying on in a great tradition of Labour leaders.

Lesser evil – you know what you can do with it.

P.S. Left of centre governments not only do orthodoxy Anglo-zionist foreign policies rather well but they are quite the dab hand and austerity too. See Syriza, Partie Socialist in France, SPD in Germany and Democrats in the US.

mark
mark
Oct 30, 2019 11:34 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

Vote and you’re voting for people who despise you and look upon you with undisguised contempt.

MichaelK
MichaelK
Oct 30, 2019 8:44 AM

I’m not sure how democratic the UK’s political system really is. All votes don’t have the same ‘weight’ all over the country. The voting system is deeply flawed and ‘problematic.’ It’s a system designed to discourage voting in non-marginal seats and at the same time it grossly tips the balance in favour of the larger parties. That the system hasn’t been radically reformed is, extraordinary. And that’s before one even mentions the House of Lords, which has no parallel in the western world. An unelected second chamber!

Surely the Tories and Johnson, in order to claim a legitimate democratic mandate for their policies towards Europe have to, at the least, secure more than 50% of the votes cast in the coming election? How on earth can one argue that they represent and reflect the views of the people if they fail to get over 50% of the votes? This seems like a de facto second referendum on Europe, but with the added ‘twist’ that the Tories don’t actually need to get a majority over the opposition! And this bizarre system is labelled… ‘Democracy’?

Antonym
Antonym
Oct 30, 2019 10:16 AM
Reply to  MichaelK

Demo- crazy set up.

Who can deny that the main issue now is Brexit yes/no?

Brexit yes/no needs 50% +, the more the better but parties can combine to get that tally. Tories + Brexit party, or Labour + SNP + LD etc.

Antonym
Antonym
Nov 1, 2019 3:21 AM
Reply to  Antonym

Even pro Remain Guardian can’t deny its all about Brexit: it is actually a second referendum. The outcome should settle the matter one way or the other – unless massive fraud is shown.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/31/the-guardian-view-on-election-2019-its-about-brexit-above-all

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Oct 30, 2019 1:22 PM
Reply to  MichaelK

How on earth can one argue that they represent and reflect the views of the people if they fail to get over 50% of the votes?

You mean, like in the referendum 3.5 years ago?

Barovsky
Oct 30, 2019 3:21 PM
Reply to  MichaelK

It’s not extraordinary. The Labour Party has been one half of the capitalist duopoly that’s run this country for well over 100 years. Democracy? Bullshit.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Oct 30, 2019 8:06 AM

Q. “Assuming it isn’t rigged.”

A. POSTAL VOTES.

Antonym
Antonym
Oct 30, 2019 10:23 AM
Reply to  Dungroanin

India does better with its thousands of standalone (not Net connected) electronic voting machines, but is does have the stupid British legacy of FirstPastThePost (and neglect the balance votes).

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Oct 30, 2019 11:43 AM
Reply to  Antonym

India most definitely do better. Ballot stuffing used to be endemic until they got their electronic voting machines, whereupon the outcome was determined by last minute “firmware” updates.

Antonym
Antonym
Oct 30, 2019 4:43 PM

Only in your dreams: all EVMs that were used for voting are guarded 24/7 by well armed police till the count is read out.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Oct 31, 2019 1:58 AM
Reply to  Antonym

It’s the armed police that apply the “firmware”.

Toby Russell
Toby Russell
Oct 30, 2019 8:05 AM

Humanity’s enormous positive potential is buried beneath our inability to not be triggered into Us-and-Them polarisation across multiple fault lines: left and right (whatever they are), male and female, theism and atheism, liberty and social obligation, East and West, whatever. We are all saturated with an almost unknowable smorgas of carefully planted and tended trigger points that is incredibly hard to navigate. Discussion is fractious, tends quickly to anger and trench warfare, leads nowhere with plenty of noise and fury, then moves on to some other equally circular shouting match. We talk at each other and listen only to those who ease our sense of our fragile rightness. Divide and conquer, bread and circuses … the oldest and best-known tricks in the books yet we fall for them every time. Why?

Because we are emotional and psychological children (see this article by John Tylor Gatto for part of the explanation). Until we confront that aspect at its root and do the inner work it takes to grow up, we are sheeple to the slaughter. The logic is simple: Until we grow up we, cannot have grown-up discussions about what will work going forward, let alone act together effectively over the long term on our democratically reached decisions.

What is not simple is the inner work, which is why people shy away from it. And there are other, more pressing matters, like making enough money to live. But we can at least observe how we are triggered, closely examine the details of how it feels, moderate that feeling by accepting we do not really know all the answers to anything, then take a cooler, more considered approach to each other, and especially those with whom we strongly disagree. Only be entering discussion with a genuine – not tactical – readiness to be wrong can we learn and progress. Only that sort of stable humility can produce the sorts of discussion we need.

vexarb
vexarb
Oct 30, 2019 10:10 AM
Reply to  Toby Russell

Toby Russell: “Discussion is fractious, tends quickly to anger and trench warfare, leads nowhere with plenty of noise and fury, then moves on to some other equally circular shouting match. We talk at each other and listen only to those who ease our sense of our fragile rightness.”

I agree with your drift, that discussion has become incredibly polarized and clamped-down (a common complaint by Truthers); but this state of affairs is a far cry from the England I used to know 30-40 years ago. Open discussion was encouraged, good form and good humour were the rule, English political discourse was a byword for politeness. One of the first things I notice on the websites during the BLiarite regime (at the run up to their rape of Iraq) was the introduction of foul language and intolerance by some posters BTL. That fashion has become almost de rigeur: a sort of trendy dumbing down of sociability. What you call “our sense of fragile rightness” is the very opposite of Western enlightenment: which is, a willingness to concede that we may be wrong.

“There is more faith in honest doubt / Believe me, than in all the creeds” — Samuel Butler, circa 1880.

Toby Russell
Toby Russell
Nov 1, 2019 8:09 AM
Reply to  vexarb

That’s great quote. I’m all for any pithy wisdom that captures or illustrates the corrosive danger of belief.

But I think what we have today is a combination of having the real quality of our consciousness as humanity reflected back to us via the internet, while that poor quality is compounded and carefully nurtured by those who want desperately for their propaganda and other control mechanisms to stay effective indefinitely. One way or another, it’s up to us, as it always is, to grow up. No one else can do our growing up for us.

BigB
BigB
Oct 30, 2019 11:27 AM
Reply to  Toby Russell

Excellent Toby: and a good link to Gatto.

For ‘most’ of us: it is over before we even get into ‘secondary’ education. Our primary education – or primary socialisation – is in the 0-7 psychomotor stage and the 7-12 pre-operative stage of social development [Piaget and Vygotsky]. In the psychomotor stage we learn – with a great deal of mimetics and parental interaction – to differentiate the undifferentiated sea of sense-data (bio-semiotics) into sensible and intelligible phenomena (semiotics). Mostly through the acquisition of language and its application to form and differentiation. Phenomena are differentiated as ‘concept-forms’ – ideal forms or ‘prototypes’ (nama-rupa – name and form) – which is mostly done unconsciously (alaya vijnana – the storehouse consciousness …ground of all phenomenal being). We form the ‘Cognitive Unconscious’ primarily between 0-7: then continue to develop it from there into adulthood [Lakoff; Johnson; et al].

As we do not create the language or culture we unconsciously assimilate: the child is already an autonomic cultural artifact of the ‘Collective Cognitive Unconscious’ before they enter secondary education aged thirteen. Then they are subjected to Inglis’ ‘Five Stage’ education to concretise their pre-conditioning. So by the time we end our pre-operative state education – or ‘higher education’ – to become ‘operative’ individuated independent adults …the Sixth Stage – the propaedeutic function – is almost never required.

We manage ourselves as autonomic automatic cultural artifacts of the Collective Cognitive Unconscious (CCU). Which results in a split dualised personality – that functions autonomically, automatically, and algorithmically just as self-programmed. And that is the Husserlian ‘natural attitude’ – which is anything but natural. It is only habituated and hypernormalised – therefore it can easily be changed. As Gatto and Paulo Friere make clear (Friere uses a similar and apposite ‘Banking Model’ – where societal structures; strictures; and norms are ‘deposited’ by rote by the teacher into the empty vault – the deposit account of the child – as ward of the state). To unlearn and uncondition: we first have to admit we are conditioned cultural artifacts – with a kind of pseudo-personalisation of the CCU (private usage-conditioned versions of the main collective capitalised value system (onto-axiology).)

So; we are triggered unconsciously by differential, hierarchical, capitalist cultural constructs we were largely self-programmed with – with a great deal of ‘guidance’ – largely in the 0-7 formative years of our lives. Which precious few recognise as the source of ALL the suffering and internal/external strife that ensues thereafter. Which we peer-police amongst ourselves – which anyone who dares to challenge this convention in public will recognise. Society is permanently psychosexually infantalised in the pre-pubescent range of socialisation – by choice. Unconscious choice: but still choice. The social guardian elite is no more matured by their entitled, privileged status – in fact, they are the least mature.

We have involuntarily; reflexively; and unconsciously/subconsciously followed our cultural auto-conditioning to the point where we can simply follow it no further. There is no point entering a debate or dialogical approach. The only thing this triggers is fear-first ontological confrontation – pre-programmed hypersensitive defence mechanisms kick in to physically shut down receptiveness (vagal constriction). We are going to have to take our trauma. Which will be triggered exogenously by system failure: there is no other way. Everyone will have to confront their own trauma and split, wounded personality – and deal with it as best they can. The outcome will be either fascism or the huge paradigm shift from duality to nonduality – actual live experience of life which will be raw, brutal horror and sheer beauty colliding. No one could possibly predict the outcome: but nothing other than the total rejection of all the values of the capitalised CCU will heal humanity and what is left of Nature. Nothing.

I call this the ‘Great Humiliation’ which will accompany the collapse. There is no point arguing whether or not there will be a collapse: that is the heart of the matter. Doomers are reflexively shouted down by the conditioned responsiveness of eternal quasi-mystical growth. Humanity has stored itself an infinitude of psychological trauma by imposing its dualised eternal growth hypothesis on a finite planet. Even now: as impoverished systems are showing increasing signs of great distress – we believe we can expand further …if only we vote for the right Party: a return to growth and prosperity is assured. This breaks my heart to see.

We require 3.34 planets worth of resources just to sustain our lifestyles. We vote for those who we best think can extend that to 3.4-3.5 planets of biocapacity. This is the depth of our unconscious trauma and involuntary psychosis. Who will vote for the planet? Who will vote for Venezuela – who we must invade to get to 3.5 planets? Who will vote for the Amazon – who we must log in order that we can have ‘clean carbon’ and ‘net zero’? Who will vote for the brutalised child miners that will have to go deeper and more deadly: dying in greater and greater numbers – so that we can have technology and electric cars? Who will vote for the 85% of humanity that we must starve – so we can have avocados and prawns 365 days a year? No one. Which is why we need a ‘Great Humiliation’ in order to confront the horror our lives export elsewhere – so we can continue to be the ecological bourgeoisie.

We do not need management: we do it to ourselves – by never examining the programming we all receive. This has reached its zenith. Collapse – including psychological collapse – is the inevitable consequence of our collective psychological trauma. How we deal with it determines our continued viability as a species. We either grow up: or we check out – probably in unconscionable unimaginable trauma and horror. Functionally infinite amounts of compassion will be required to deal with it. Know any Buddhas? I suggest we all make ourselves into one as fast as we can.

vexarb
vexarb
Oct 31, 2019 10:18 AM
Reply to  BigB

BigB: “vagal constriction”.

Interesting because, although I am a through-and-through rationalist and child of the Enlightenment, I am increasingly fascinated by how conscious perception is linked to our “brainless” autonomous nervous system — a more ancient level of awareness and control that we inherited from creatures which came into being as far back as the Jellyfish era. Autonomous nervous systems own the basics: ingestion, digestion, circulation, excretion and procreation. Our vaunted human intelligence and Cartesian “Cogito ergo sum” merely sit on top of the vagus system – an accessory product of evolution.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vasovagal-syncope/symptoms-causes/syc-20350527

Toby Russell
Toby Russell
Nov 1, 2019 8:34 AM
Reply to  vexarb

As I see it, it is Enlightenment Rationalism that is collapsing. The orthodox assertion that consciousness or “human intelligence” arises from biological activity is the dualism BigB addresses in the above, and in many other of his comments. There are many recorded phenomena that cannot be explained by the dualist model, with the placebo effect being but the most infamous.

If one takes the time to look at what contemporary physics is saying about matter and space, we see there is nothing there but mathematics, or information, or rules, not matter per se. Chemistry and biology are levels above that fundament. So there is in fact no tenable certainty in the materialist camp, only the reflexive sense that reality is ‘physical’ first, and ‘mental’ second. Materialist dualism is thus also a belief and should be handled as such.

Spacetime is doomed. There is no such thing as spacetime fundamentally in the actual underlying description of the laws of physics. That’s very startling, because what physics is supposed to be about is describing things as they happen in space and time. So if there’s no spacetime, it’s not clear what physics is about.

Nima Arkhani-Hamed

vexarb
vexarb
Oct 30, 2019 7:36 AM

Is there enough time before the election to get off the sofa, go down to Local party HQ and deselect your Local BLiarite MP?

Barovsky
Oct 30, 2019 7:56 AM
Reply to  vexarb

if only it was that easy. the blairite bureaucracy rule the roost. Case in point, the LP conf voted for a few progressive moves but they might as well have taken place on another planet. Why do we not recognise that there are TWO Labour Parties!

JadedManc
JadedManc
Oct 30, 2019 9:15 AM
Reply to  vexarb

Tried that and (über Blairite) Lucy Powell scraped back in, voted for by angry, don’t-rock-the-boat acolytes and toadies. The final straw for me in Labour.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Oct 30, 2019 9:21 AM
Reply to  JadedManc

I suspect many of these dog-in-the-manger Blairite hangovers, having rigged their reselections will find themselves being deselected by the electorate. It may deny Labour a majority but that is the price they must pay for failing to cleanse itself of these parasites.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Oct 30, 2019 1:40 PM

They will win again like they did in 2017 when they tried to lose votes but ended up getting more!

They will agitate and oppose the whip – nowt wrong with that.

However, it should be made cast iron that any MP leaving their party MUST instigate a by-election.

vexarb
vexarb
Oct 31, 2019 10:24 AM
Reply to  JadedManc

@ Jaded & Barovsky. Lose a few, win a few. Lucy Powell is only one case of a BLiarite scraping back into the Labour Party. There must be a hundred other BLiarites in the party who can be deselected on their voting record; but where are the socialist troops? On their sofa whining.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Oct 30, 2019 6:05 AM

The UK will not be leaving the EU until January 31st 2020, and they won’t be able to leave without a deal.

Doesn’t that latter condition depend on who wins the next election?

… Labour stills seems the only way to vote.

What about the Brexit Party? Or has Off-Graun now lost all interest in Brexit, too?

different frank
different frank
Oct 30, 2019 11:51 AM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig
different frank
different frank
Oct 30, 2019 2:35 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

If the Brexit party is a political party, where are the local branches?

mark
mark
Oct 30, 2019 3:36 PM

Where are the local branches of the Labour and Tory parties?
In my town the local branch of the Tory party has been turned into a curry house.
The local branch of Labour has been turned into a lodging house for people with drink problems.

mark
mark
Oct 30, 2019 11:38 PM
Reply to  mark

I remember when Labour and the Tories each had about 2 million members.
Now there are around 100,000 Tories, average age about 93.
When Jezza is deposed shortly and sent on allotment leave, there will be even fewer Labour.

different frank
different frank
Oct 31, 2019 1:22 AM
Reply to  mark

Mark
more deflection.
Answer the question.
Where are the branches.
It is a money making company.

mark
mark
Oct 31, 2019 4:24 PM

What’s wrong with that?
All political parties now are registered as companies in some dodgy tax haven like Panama. If it’s good enough for Chuka, Soubry and Co. I suppose it’s good enough for Nigel.
Corruption has been legalised.
They will soon make it compulsory.

different frank
different frank
Oct 31, 2019 1:24 AM
Reply to  mark

On June 17th 1997 Farage was photographed talking with convicted BNP Bomber Tony Lecomber and Mark Deavin BNP and one time UKIP activist who Farage lunched with.

different frank
different frank
Oct 31, 2019 1:25 AM

comment image

Antonym
Antonym
Oct 31, 2019 1:47 AM

This Lecomber carried an explosive in 1986 and was convicted for that less than a month later. Farage must have known 9 years earlier!

mark
mark
Oct 31, 2019 4:26 PM

He also once travelled on a bus used the previous week by the milkman who delivers to the Russian embassy.
If that doesn’t prove he’s a Kremlin puppet, I don’t know what does.

Geoff
Geoff
Oct 31, 2019 7:56 AM
Reply to  mark

look oo-er there a flying pig, no wonder the price o’ bacon has gone up

different frank
different frank
Oct 31, 2019 1:20 AM
Reply to  mark

Top example of deflection

vexarb
vexarb
Oct 30, 2019 6:00 AM

I still think New-Old Labour under JC is the lesser of two evils; because his bumbling decency might soften the “crowd control” which British servicemen are training the Saudi Army to use; and which might be used on Britain, seeing the way we are heading since Thatcher’s “Smack of Firm Government”, BLiar’s Surveillance State with Dodgy Deaths, and St.Theresa’s open Poisoning the Public in the Park:

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-10-28-the-uks-secret-military-unit-that-answers-to-saudi-arabian-commanders/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

The UK military has a team of 11 high-ranking soldiers embedded in the Saudi Arabian armed forces. The British programme, details of which have long been kept secret from the British parliament and public, involves training the Saudis in “internal security”. The British Military Mission trains the protection force of the ruling House of Saud and was established in 1964. Its central role is to defend the AZC Saudi regime from a coup.