UPDATED – DISCUSS: Coup in Bolivia?
Despite winning an election only last month, it seems Bolivia’s President Evo Morales is being ousted.
Protestors have been on the streets for days now, but in a key move yesterday they were joined by the police and members of the armed forces.
Bolivia’s government, in an effort to further establish their legitimacy, submitted the election data to the Organisation of American States (OAS) for review.
This could be seen as inadvisable and naive, given the OAS’s penchant for doing whatever the USA wants them to do (see their disgraceful treatment of both Cuba and Venezuela).
Rather predictably, the OAS found “irregularities” in the voting numbers and “manipulations” in the computer programs. (That link is in Spanish, we are looking for a translated version.)
In response to the findings Morales called for new elections, an offer which the opposition refused.
But Bolivia’s opposition leaders say the call for a fresh vote comes too late. Luis Fernando Camacho, a civic leader from the opposition stronghold Santa Cruz, said the OAS audit shows fraud and that Morales should resign.
The opposition are insisting that Morales resign, and both he and the Vice President be barred from running. (Presumably this is because of their deep-seated desire for fairness, and not the nailed on certainty Morales would win a re-run election.)
The military then spoke up, announcing Morales should resign “for the sake of stability”.
General Williams Kaliman, commander of the country’s armed forces, released this statement:
After analysing the internal conflict situation, we ask the president of the state to renounce his presidential mandate, allowing for peace to be restored and the maintenance of stability for the good of Bolivia,”
Earlier today, perhaps sensing a certain Allende-ish quality to the situation, Morales resigned.
“I have resigned my post as President…[but] I want to tell you, brothers and sisters, that the fight does not end here. The poor, the social movements, will continue in this fight for equality and peace,”
As it stands right now, we have a popular, elected president being replaced by undemocratic means. There is, notionally, an election in the offing. But as of the time of writing, it seems the military are in charge.
Yesterday the military refused to “act against the people”, but today…
the military said it ordered air-and-land operations to “neutralise” armed groups that act outside the law, said a statement released on Sunday.
So:
- Will there be an election?
- Will Evo Morales be allowed to run?
- If not, will his Vice President?
- Will there be protests?
- Will the military be “forced” to violently put them down, whilst declaring a “state of emergency”?
- Are we witnessing the end of the last untouched Bolivarian Republic?
- How many of the Bolivian opposition politicians just so happened to have been educated in the United States?
We leave you with this cartoon, first published in 2007:
UPDATE 11/11/19 – RT is reporting that, after Morales announced his resignation, some protesters attacked – and forced their way inside – the Venezuelan Embassy in La Paz. We haven’t seen any confirmation of this from other sources, as yet, but if true it’s another indicator that there is something more behind these events. Why would Bolivian protesters turn their fire on the Venezuelan embassy?
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Thanks to ye’all for confirming. ¡La Bolivia ya se fue, ya no existe, pero les agradece por su atención!
Children in classrooms, especially younger children who have not yet adapted to the constraints authoritan stupidity, are still ordered to “sit up straight and pay attention” even though looking at flies on the ceiling, squirming around and assuming weird postures, picking their noses and dissecting the contents, seem9ng to be thinking of and reacting to something completely different, and so on, are precisely how they do pay attention and create the internal, non-verbal cues that enable them to absorb and remember the formal education.
Congressman Devin Nunes (R, California), formerly chair of the House Spook Committee, has again been giving vent to his belief that the Democratic process to impeach Trump is not an effective way to remove a president. He should know.
Apparently very useful to somebody, this troll stuff. Post and talk were about Bolivia, end up being about trolling. Yak.
A troll posted and so it naturally led to a conversation about trolling – which I found very enlightening since it gives an insight into the nefarious methods of info sabotage and of how these methods can exploit the very attempt to avoid censorship. These comments all stemmed from the initial troll attack and can easily be skipped. In the mean time, if you have anything else to say about Bolivia then say it. No-one is stopping you.
The term “troll” is used with complete abandon on this site to enforce and regiment conformity to certain dogmas and to isolate and denounce designated proverbial witches. The irony is that most of you guys fled here because you were booted off other websites’ comments sections for trolling (actual trolling, not the Orwellian figment conjured by OG. Ugh, monstrous).
The designation “troll” is designated by google definition as :
The initial controversial remark below is this:
The poster admits himself that he is introducing a topic that hasn’t been mentioned so far. Furthermore the topic is a deliberately inflammatory one which he clearly means to attack. Thus the poster has introduced a straw man specifically to vent his wrath against. If this doesn’t conform to the aforementioned definition of “troll” then I don’t know what does.
The immense value of the limbic system, when it is functioning as given and not just politely displayed or constrained by ritalin, administrative, alienated social or technological (etc) fol-de-rols, is greatly underrated by the movers, shakers, educators, chatterati and suchlike others, who are generally appalled by its collateral manifestations of apparent inattention, disregard, etc.
Right wing n0bodies popping up out of nowhere or Langley, depending on how you pronounce it, and declaring themselves President, seem to be all the rage these days.
What IS this? An article about a coup, but very little mention about Jews in the comment section? Where’s the gutter antsemitism that this website has come to stoke and virtue signal? Could things finally be turning in a less social chauvinist direction, OG?
This is a troll account run by an individual who posts under more than one ID. Please don’t engage – ed.
It pays your hasbara troll wages.
Don’t knock it.
If anti-semitism is your preference, may I recommend any comment board at RT on any given day?
There is an antisemite minority BTL at OG. I deplore it, and take on egregious examples both ATL and BTL. So do others. A Jewish ex of mine – lovely woman but a bit woolly on politics (I kid you not, she actually believes the guff about Labour having a particular problem in this regard) – wrote to ask why I write for OffGuardian given those a/s comments. I replied:
“One, it’s an important outlet for anti-imperialists. Two, it gains me a wider audience than my blog does. Three, I’ve never seen antisemitism above the line. Four, the only way of controlling it below the line is through censorship. Given the origins of OffG in censorship at the Guardian, I have every sympathy with the editors’ reluctance to go down that road. Five, through OffG I’ve forged useful alliances with intelligent people who share sufficient ground to allow fruitful dialogue on where we differ.”
I might add that, were I to have Censor’s Power in this or any other forum, I might use it to block comments from anyone using so arrogantly offensive a name as Stomper of Fuctards.
Phil – from observation we are aware that a percentage of the most tawdry ”it’s the Joos’ type stuff originates from the same locations as those anons who then pop up to denounce us as ‘antisemitic’ for allowing such things to be said BTL.
It’s a troll dance, and it takes much (often thankless) vigilance to keep the balance between maintaining free speech and defending ourselves against the destructive forces out there.
Our comment policy specifies that we will not tolerate expressions of race hate or incitement to violence. We remove comments that fall into this category. Happily we rarely need to take this action. Though it’s possible we miss some examples as we do get quite a lot of comments coming in.
We do hope, though, that our clearly stated policy combined with the fact we have NEVER published anything remotely antisemitic ATL is enough to ensure we don’t get unfairly tarred with any racist brush – as is clearly the intent behind these dual-sided troll attacks.
I like the phrase ‘troll dance’, Catte. And you are all veritable Stakhanovites in the (often thankless) burden you have shouldered. This unsavoury but very necessary task (your understated “quite a lot of comments coming in” gives you away as English, btw) is to your great credit.
It would of course be foolish to rule out the very real possibility of false flag comments.
This thing about a troll dance is very interesting in that it shows one of the most common propagandist devices: to implant a targetable commenter within a community in order to stain it and thus demonise it in the eyes of the majority. It’s a bit like the agent provocateur manoeuvre but I see that the latter is defined as:
In the present case, inducing others isn’t necessary since the implanted offender can simply be taken as representative of the whole.
One example from an admittedly completely different area is an entity known as “Titania McGrath”. From Wiki:
No doubt, Doyle and likeminded “wits” would defend the creation of this entity by saying “she” writes the kind of rubbish that social justice warriors write. But if that were true then Doyle would not have needed to create her. It is precisely because his opponents cannot be so easily dismissed that Doyle feels compelled to create this straw man – or rather, straw woman.
And I am aware that “identity politics” and “political correctness” may be bullshit anyway – but the straw enemy device remains the same.
good re- mark….
I’d like to know why the camera shooting what was replayed repeatedly on multiple tv channels as the explosion that killed Baha Abu Al-Ata in Gaza earlier this week was pointed directly at his house in centre-frame and obviously locked off horizontally (couldn’t pan left or right), so could only tilt vertically (up and down). Who told whom to expect what and where. Oh yes and: in this case it was the Joos wot dun it.
I was just listening to an Evo-friendly podcast pointing out that already some years ago he had enacted some policies that didn’t endear him to the lower ranks of the military and of the police. Resentment was brooding.
Then, for those of you who understand Spanish –
Evo’s press conference in Mexico: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjsqxZfaMo
Arrival at Mexico City airport (begin at about 21’25): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PxPLJcCzxo
Mexican government press conference before arrival (until 06’10), then after arrival (at 01h 23’30): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM3QTPrHagI
MAS (Morales’ party) representative elected president of Bolivian Chamber of Deputies:
https://www.brasil247.com/mundo/bolivia-deputado-do-mas-partido-de-morales-e-eleito-presidente-da-camara
Cut&Paste update: “Venezuelan President Maduro urged the armed forces to fulfill their duty to the people and to restore Morales in his rights. The Parliament of Argentina has condemned the military coup in Bolivia and the attack on Bolivian democracy. The majority party in Bolivia’s parliament have refused to recognize Morales’ resignation.
https://www.pagina12.com.ar/230954-todos-los-bloques-salvo-cambiemos-repudiaron-el-golpe-en-bol
In the country’s capital, LaPaz, thousands of Morales supporters arrived on foot and in vehicles.
The coup was clearly not able to localize the resistance and immediately establish control over the capital, so the situation continues to develop – a significant part of the population of Bolivia does not recognize samonazvanie “President”, which is supported by Washington.”
Poor Evo, and I’m not being sarcastic. I watched his arrival in Mexico and his address to the press there, as well as the press conferences delivered by the Mexican Foreign Minister (telling of the incredible air space gymnastics they had to go through) and of President López Obrador, who sounds like a gentle, elderly but just as firm version of Fidel Castro. It was all very touching and dignified — again, no irony.
All this brings to mind a little quiz of sorts for all of you commentators, based on a old joke that I will no repeat as I don’t want to offend anyone’s intelligence:
What do Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Syria and probably a couple of other places on the planet have in common, besides having resisted all of the Empire’s attempts to destroy them?
Hint: it’s based on the presence of absence (Rumsfeldic dialectics left aside). Reply in a later post.
“What do Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Syria and probably a couple of other places on the planet have in common?”
Socialism.
I would prefer to say “a desire for self-determination” – as “socialism” appears to have become an expletive these days. . . . . . .
Socialism? Debatable. But here’s a fact: THERE ARE NO US EMBASSIES IN ANY OF THESE COUNTRIES.
There’s LITERALLY a US embassy in Bolivia.
Another excellent piece from the GrayZone:
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/11/13/bolivian-coup-plotters-school-of-the-americas-fbi-police-programs/
Okay so correct me if I am mistaken. Mt. Morales decided he needed to run for a fourth term – all good – the economy has developed very nicely under his watch, Bolivians are generally better off and things are looking good.
Constitution says no.
Put it to a referendum – people say no. Well then why not bide your time and get it right instead of leaving the door open to getting yourself into such a situation as the one hes now in ? Could he not have planned it better? A successor ? Start to amend the constitution years in advance? Did he not speak to Mr. Putin or others on this?
So now what? T-shirt in hand and a few youthful compatriots to help sit it out in …..Mexico. Good for Mexico to do something at least.
Mr. Morales played checkers when he should have been playing chess. The “opposition” seems they can’t even fathom dominos so all it would have taken was maybe 10 million US?
So now Mr. Morales needs to stay put and bide his time in good old Mexico. Maybe take on a job hosting a personal talk show ….. who knows.
One thing is for sure – hes still very popular and he should be elected once again – just not now, that would be a poor move – a checker move and by now he should be figuring that out.
On the contrary, Mr. Morales should consider waiting it out, plan his next moves carefully and with precision. This way he will be back in full power sooner and more popular than ever. I hope.
Good luck to the people of Bolivia. Its going to get rough for a while yet.
I hope President Morales remembers that Trotsky was murdered in Mexico under similar circumstances
Andre Vltchek is supportive and optimistic:
https://21stcenturywire.com/2019/11/13/viva-evo-morales-overthrown-but-bolivian-socialism-will-endure/
Yup great article by Andre
I really liked the photo of the cable car thingy…..going over a big slum!
Just what poor Bolivian people need, cable cars over their slum city
Old Evo what an economic genius!
You mean something like the giant ferris wheel thingy spinning over London towne ? At least the Evo thingy has a solar panel on it…..
A superb article that I can confirm through my own experiences in South America. And it has grown so tiresome to read comments like the one below the article by craniovoid scum that blares the same stinking lies fascist U.S. and its ilk is spreading about Bolivia – a high culture they can never come close to. How many effing morons are there who believe that a cell phone is cultural superiority? Or shitty, sickening fast food? Vehicles wasting 30 liters of gasoline per 100km? Fukushima?
The most disturbing part in all this are however the christian fascists. And those who always resort to apologia in regard to the historical synonymity of fascism and christianity. If it is not one and the same in the first place, then they are the two plagues on mankind that always show up as one psychopathy.
“The most disturbing part in all this are however the christian fascists.” Quite rightly said – for you speak of those pampered, greedy, narcissistic and sociopathic elites who have absolutely no connection, culturally or spiritually to the indigenous folk to whom this great country of Bolivia truly belongs. And the same goes for Venezuela along with the list of other Latin American countries whose governments have been overthrown by the US Hegemon ever since they committed the greatest crime ever, of dropping atomic bombs on the ordinary people of Japan in 1945. If Christ himself was marching with the protestors, they would slaughter him – in the name of the father. Jesus saves – apparently at Goldman Sachs.
Wednesday, 13 November, 2019 – 12:35 PEPE ESCOBAR POST:
Confirmed by multiple sources from Bolivia + friends in Argentina.
Today, at 4 pm La Paz, the MAS [Movement for Socialism] majority will hold a plenary session, meeting the requisite quorum of 2/3 of Parliament and declare NULL AND VOID the power grab by Guaido, as well as Evo’s departure caused by THE LITHIUM COUP.
https://www.geopolitica.ru/en/news/crucial-bolivia-update-pepe-escobar-post
[Corbyn this one is for you: from the Movement for Socialism + friends in Britain]
I found this vide from Germany on a Syrian Truther website. It records a lively argument between a mainland Chinese woman and a demo by some Anglophile Hong Kong Chinese. I think this sort of argument is highly relevant to the outcome of similar AZC attempts to take over the street in South America; the stuff of street life:
The correct video (I hope. Oh for an Edit Button!)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x_SqKY5haqg&index=36&list=PLt-M8o1W_GdRlMJFNHYgjmjpOuCiAI_YP
Fun fact: I just learned that Morales chopper made an emergency landing a few days ago due to “mechanical failure of the tail rotor”, almost certainly an assassination attempt, CIA style.
Lesson for Labour — Corbyn, that means you — from South America:
“Uncle Bob BTL Saker Vineyard November 11, 2019 · at 6:12 pm EST/EDT
The only way Peoples Governments can survive against the coups and color revolutions organized, plotted,and funded by US elements is to strike the plotters first.When Allende gained power in Chile, Cuba warned him against trusting the pro-US stooges in Chile. They advised him to purge those elements out of the military and police commands in Chile.But Allende told them that Chileans believed in elections. Were proud of not having coups in their country. And he wasn’t worried he would be betrayed by those elements.The end result,he was killed,and a fascist military regime took power.
In Venezuela,they went half way,and purged a lot of the military.But still as we see today half way is not enough.”
[Get to Local HQ and deselect all BLiarites; by their voting record shalt thou know them. After the Election will be too late, that’s the lesson from Uncle Bob]
The Saker in similar vein today. A Lesson for Labour — Corbyn, this means You:
“Should Morales ever come back to power, his first priority ought to be a profound purge and the replacement of “School of the Americas” types with real patriots. Doing this will not be a sufficient condition for success, but it will be a required one nonetheless.”
“Deselect all BLairites” ?????? How preposterous ! Dame Margaret Hodge would call you ” a ****ing Antisemite”.
Oil ? No. Lithium ? Yes
Socialism? Yes
The most successful economy in the Americas in recent memory was achieved under the Morales administration. Even the conservative Economist and the right libertarian Mises Foundation have both acknowledged that *fact* in the recent past.
Thats because he wasn’t a socialist, not a real one, a bit like Corbyn, that’s why Mises didn’t mind him,think about it?
Here’s an example from the mining sector, very important in Bolivia, ownership was
15 to 1 in favour of the private sector,doesn’t sound very socialist to me,you know allowing that much privatisation of such important area’s of your economy
Reality is Morales wasn’t liked any more, he’s done the wise thing and gone to Mexico before he can cause any more trouble
Of course. The ‘no true Scotsman’ purity test. What was I thinking?
You weren’t thinking though and thats you’re problem, people like you don’t think you just charge off into the distance screaming coup,coup its all so unfair isn’t it!
coup (coup d’état)- a sudden and decisive change of government
illegally or by force coup d’etat, putsch, takeover group action
Happy to help with any other questions or concerns
FYI: Excessive attention-seeking is not a character flaw. It is a brain wiring response to early developmental trauma caused by neglect.[3] The developing brain observes its environment and wires itself accordingly to survive in that world that it presumes will be like those experiences.
h/t Psychology Today
Sorry about the developmental issues and relieved to know that its ‘not a character flaw’.
There’s a great site called
Bolivian thoughts in an emerging world
Fantastic site loads of info on how fantastic old Evo was,or rather wasn’t
Look it up,although i don’t think it’ll make you happy
I don’t doubt there is corruption in the ousted government.
I’d be interested in a list of governments in the history of governance that have an unblemished record in this regard, if you happen to know of one.
I’d also be interested in your impression of the oppo legislator who has just declared herself interim president of Bolivia, Jeanine Anez, an openly racist, far right christian fundamentalist whose brother was arrested in possession of nearly 500 kilos of cocaine in Brazil less then two years ago.
She calls indigenous “satanic” (satnicos) on her feed and exclaimed “The city is not for Indians, they should go back to the Altiplano or the Chaco!”
You’re kind of gal, I guess?
BTW, I briefly reviewed the website that you recommended and came away with the impression that it resembled a hastily assembled parody of a low-brow propaganda pamphlet.
Typo should have read *satanicos*
About that corruption thing,wasn’t Bolivia rated about 135 most corrupt last year out of about 170 countries??
Yeah, i know you’ll have some sort of whataboutery excuse for such a superb achievement
Editor:You’re referring to the ‘Perceived Corruption Index’, in which countries are ranked by how corrupt an unidentified group of people allegedly PERCEIVE them to be. It does not, and does not claim to, measure any actual corruption. You wil be astonished that most of America’s designated ‘enemies’ appear high on this scale. One of the more obvious propaganda tools. -ed
“Not-a-coup” Fun Fakts of the Day:
The Radio Education Network of Bolivia (Erbol) leaked 16 audios involving opposition leaders who are calling for a coup d’etat against the government of President Evo Morales, a political action which would have been coordinated from the U.S. embassy in the Andean country .
Among those mentioned in the audios are the U.S. senators Marco Rubio, Bob Menendez and Ted Cruz, who have would maintained contact with the Bolivian opposition in order to achieve a possible regime change in the South American country.
The audios also reveal participation in the political conspiracy of the former prefect of Cochabamba, Manfred Reyes Villa, who was accused of corruption in 2009 and fled Bolivia to seek asylum in the U.S., where he is currently living.
In their conspiracy talks, Bolivian politicians also mention a former Bolivian president whose name is not explicitly mentioned, former New Republican Force lawmaker Mauricio Muñoz and former Army officers Oscar Pacello, Remberto Siles, Julio Maldonado and Teobaldo Cardozo.
The Erbol leaked information audios also mention calls from opposition leaders to burn government party structures and to put together a general strike across the country.
All these actions, which were expected to be advertised as based on social unrest, would be part of the response to the triumph of Evo Morales in the last presidential elections.
The opposition plans would also include an eventual attack against the Cuban Embassy, very similar to what happened in the coup against Venezuela’s late president Hugo Chavez in 2002.
So far, none of the opposition leaders in Bolivia has said anything about the leaked audios.
h/t The Canary
I did say you wouldn’t like it
Do you have any far right wing propaganda on hand that you care to share?
Didn’t say ‘I don’t like it’, did I? I rather enjoy parody and satire, actually.
I’m surprised Abrams and Pompeo didn’t just send Gweedo to La Paz to take over. He seems to be at a bit of a loose end in Venezuela at the moment.
No, no, N, it’s not a coup, it’s all “popular democracy.”
When thugs and rioters attack and threaten government officials and their families in their own homes, burn down public buildings and infrastructure, throw petrol bombs and set their opponents alight, and close down transport systems and large cities, this is all “popular democracy.”
At least when it happens in Bolivia, Venezuela, Ukraine and Hong Kong. These are all democracy protestors and latter day Robin Hoods.
Your wrong, Mises Inst. did indeed “mind him”, actually. Google it for yourself.
The capitalist owners are 15-1 in favour of capitalist ownership.
That’s really astounding.
Strange how all these people who are in the way suddenly decide to “just leave.”
Sort of like the Palestinians who so obligingly “just left” to make way for our Chosen friends.
Evo Morales DID NOT WIN the elections, that is the problem. He tried to COOK the results, but it did not work. He is the one who tried a coup d’état, but was unsuccessful. Shameful Bolivarians…!!!
And you have evidence to support your claim?
Ah, I thought not.
Do you have evidence to support yours?… Ah… you don’t… We thought so…!!!
Yes http://cepr.net/publications/reports/bolivia-elections-2019-11
Now show your work, troll.
cepr, who you link to are funded by the Rockefellers, and we all know they’re up to their ears in conspiracies don’t we😜
There is plenty of evidence espartico. It was the OAS who set up the scenario for confusion and Morales unthinkingly adopted their formula with quicky counts preceding more thorough counts. The more thorough count gave Morales an 11% lead, but by then the OAS were broadcasting the inaccurate initial quicky count results which didn’t reveal that lead.
In any case, why am I trying to reason with an oligarch’s shill? Or maybe you are more deeply involved in spreading disinformation and trolling?
Then, if the laughable situation that you describe was true, there is only one way… Evo Morales should take all his ‘popular support’ and the army and the security services that he has been controlling for years now and fight… In either case, he is or a crook that tried to cheat in the elections or a moron for not defending the ‘popular’ regime of Bolivia after so many years in power… good luck.
Every election that goes the “wrong” way is automatically and mysteriously “illegitimate”, “rigged”, “stolen.”
Like our very own referendum.
That’s right. Elections are a very serious affair. They are very well and carefully regulated, controlled and organised and if something goes ‘wrong’ they are, or should be, immediately suspect. Especially in countries and regimes that are prone to a high degree of manipulation and mistrust. If they don’t like it, they can always REPEAT the vote, with more guarantees, international observers or other procedures to ensure accountability and transparency. Those who want to be fooled, can be fooled somewhere else.
The presence and validation of international observers at the 2018 elections in Venezuela made no difference to the West’s endeavours to remove Maduro from office. Do you truly have any reason to think that Morales would fare any better?
https://www.globalresearch.ca/international-observers-to-venezuelas-election-pen-letter-to-the-eu/5670916
International observers is ONLY one more method to control elections. In reality, if they were trustworthy, there should not be any need for observers. In Venezuela, Maduro has done, with more success, what the RACIST and Inca SUPREMACIST Evo Morales tried to do, unsuccessfully, in Bolivia. Maduro is in power through a COUP and the creation of a new and servile parliament, after losing the elections to the legally constituted one…!!!
“Racist and Inca SUPREMACIST Evo Morales…. Maduro is in power through a Coup”. Dude, what drugs are you taking? Are you seriously that deluded? Or are you sitting at a desk in Langley?
We do not expect that a leftist cretin and a profound retard like you could possibly understand the situation in the Americas… It’s all ‘flowers and pipes’ for you uh…!!!
And you, espartico, have evidence to dispute the claim the you, yourself, are nothing more than that which you deem to throw accusations of at others ??
Oh My God. You’re in the Spartacist League!!? The penny drops. And here I was thinking you were a far right troll. Pretty much all the same really Esp.
Oh, yeah, thanks for the charming compliments, made me smile.
Peace and love to you Bro.
I don’t think a Spartacist would say anything like what ‘Espartaco’ is spewing.
are you sitting at a desk in Langley?
I think we all know the answer to that question.
Some excuses for violent coups have to be touted for the pimps of the presstitute MSM to promote, no matter how transparently ludicrous they may be.
Yep…. Regards Espartaco who has visited us often, I googled the Spanish name of the group he said he was in, and up popped…. The Spartacist League. Them with a bizarre and loony reputation, especially in attacking others on the left, noisily disrupting meetings and generally being very obnoxious people.
As is the case with all his comments at Offguardian.
And of course, Bolivia has now disappeared from the pages of the filth media.
And they will just carry on with their lies and bullshit. Russia and Putin bashing has appeared in the media down here the last couple of days. They’re linking it to Trumps ‘impeachment hearing’ and being dutiful servants of the Anglo Zionist Empire, they’re starting to froth at the mouth.
Of course not a single word about United States illegally occupying Syria and stealing its oil.
There are three main bodies which undertake election observation: OSCE, UN and the EU. We know from the letter linked in my post of 12 November @ 10.41 pm that the international observers who attended were not representing the EU. The EU had been invited to attend by the Venezuelan Government but declined the offer.
They were therefore either attending on behalf of the UN or OCSE. The UN were asked BY THE OPPOSITION not to send observers who had been invited by the Venezuelan Government.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-venezuela-politics-un/venezuela-opposition-asks-u-n-not-to-send-observers-to-may-vote-idUKKCN1GO2J2
I don’t know whether the UN ignored the oppositions request or not.
So that leaves the OSCE as the third body which may have sent the international observers. Section 2.1 of their operational handbook on observing elections states:
https://www.osce.org>odihr>elections
Hopefully you can see where I am going with this. The international observers attending the 2018 election were there at the invitation of President Maduro.
We just told you that observers is just one method, not the most important at that, to check elections. The most important thing is the people in the country and its system. If they cannot do it themselves, nobody can help them.
Who is the “we” to whom you refer?? I’ve just noticed that whenever your posts are written in the first person, you seem to always use the first person plural form i.e. ‘we’ rather than ‘I’. Could there be a reason for that?
The point which you (plural?) seem to be deliberately ignoring, and I shall say it again, is that Maduro extended the invitation to the observers himself. Why would he do that if he felt there was anything to hide?
And, as indicated by the letter from some of the observers to the EU, the observers concluded among other multiple positive features that
We are ‘comité espartaco’, a communist group (you can visit our blog).
There are many ways of fooling observers (in different areas for example). In any case, as we explained before, Maduro had to create a new parliament to avoid the bad results of the elections. Results that were not a surprise, as the support for the Bolivarian regime has been declining continuously, due to corruption, mismanagement, ineptitude, dependency on oil revenues to buy support, lack of truly revolutionary measures, etc, etc… The decline of the Bolivarian regimes has a general character, as they have been crumbling in Ecuador, Bolivia, Venezuela, Nicaragua… for similar reasons.
You can’t say stuff like that!
You know, corruption,ineptitude,oil dependency ,etc
No my friend its all the fault of ‘outside’ forces, always
Never,ever is it,or could it possibly be the fault of useless idiots running the place into the ground
You are right… it’s always some foreign ‘conspiracy’ or ‘yankee’ intervention… there are always excuses with these people…!!!
Indigenous people in Bolivia who had the impudence to try to learn to read and write were punished by their white masters by having their hands cut off. No doubt they deserved this for being “Inca supremacists.”
If you did that to the ‘poor’ Indians, you surely need to be taken to the gallows or, at least, be treated in like manner. Please, hand yourself in to the nearest police station…!!!
Hundreds of election observers from dozens of different countries apparently don’t count when the result doesn’t suit Uncle Sam.
He won the election …you espaztico. He lost the referendum. Get your facts straight.
Blame the victim. Project your own behaviour on others. Page 1 of the Zionist play book.
“Zionist”? You’re THAT desperate to drag “the JOOOZ” into this? That’s so….pathetic. Disgusting!
Then hire half wits and cretins to spread smears and abuse.
Page 2 of the Zionist play book.
Yes, Bolivarians never play fair. They constantly win elections, and of course this is completely unacceptable.
Luckily all those splendid chaps at Langley have a large budget to sort these things out for us.
Then just CRY AND SOB… or be a man and go to America to defend your Bolivarians.
There is ZERO evidence of any rigging of the Bolivian election.
Nor will there be.
These are just the usual evidence free bald assertions endlessly parroted by the presstitute MSM, together with much hyperventilating about alleged “corruption.”
This is an extremely violent Washington orchestrated coup to overthrow a popular and democratically elected government.
Just like Venezuela. Just like Ukraine. Just like Serbia. Just like Georgia. Just like Brazil. Just like Chile. Just like 100 other places.
Using the same venal, corrupt, self serving comprador elite, worshipping at the altar of all things American and investing their CIA and NED money in second homes in Miami.
The latest Washington looney tunes to emerge in Bolivia are of the same stripe as those in Ukraine and Venezuela.
Neo Nazis and outright fascists, religious nut jobs in the same mould as Pence and Pompeo.
Like the Washington darling who just appointed herself president, Gweedo style.
Overtly racist towards indigenous people.
These stooges serve only Washington and themselves. They lack any credibility or integrity or popular support. Creatures of the ilk of Bolsonaro, Moreno, Gweedo and so many others ever ready to sell out their countries to foreign interests. There is an endless supply of these quislings. But they do not last long.
It is no accident that this occurred when lithium has increased in importance as a vital strategic resource, and Bolivia was finalising production favourable production arrangements with China, involving not merely extraction but considerable value added processing domestically.
You just go and tell all that crap to those Bolivians, many of them supporters of Evo Morales until yesterday, that have chased him from a power in which he wanted to remain FOREVER… or go to Mexico and tell that to him… tell him to go back and fight with all his pals… and ask him WHY, after so many years in power, he did not get rid of his enemies in the army, the police, etc…???!!! As we said before… or he is a crook or he is a moron… or both things… and so he deserves his fate.
Here’s good background by Max Blumenthal and Ben Norton from Grayzone:
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/11/11/bolivia-coup-fascist-foreign-support-fernando-camacho/
Looks like no elections and murderous roundups ahead…
It looks like Max Blumenthal and Medea Benjamin are being targeted now like Assange and Manning.
Being Jewish doesn’t protect you from the Zionist Mafia.
I could cite plenty of examples of people that you consider to be expendable.
Likely outcome of the coup in Bolivia? a hint from Venezuela. The sheeple begin to realize that The Man from Uncle and the Dog in the nation’s Driving Seat are working together. Pepe Escobar:
“Better not mess with the former Brazilian president; Putin and Xi are his real top allies in the Global Left
His [Lula’s] first speech to the nation after his prison saga – which is far from over – could never be solemn; in fact he promised a detailed address for the near future. What he did, in his trademark conversationalist style, was to immediately go on the offensive taking down a long list of every possible enemy in the book: those who have mired Brazil into an “anti-people agenda.” In terms of a fully improvised, passionate political address, this is already anthology material.
Lula detailed the current “terrible conditions” for Brazilian workers. He ripped to pieces the economic program – basically a monster sell-out – of Finance Minister Paulo Guedes, a Chicago boy and Pinochetist who’s applying the same failed hardcore neoliberal prescriptions now being denounced and scorned every day in the streets of Chile.
He detailed how the Brazilian right wing openly bet on neo-fascism, which is the form that neoliberalism recently took in Brazil. He blasted mainstream media, in the form of the so far all-powerful, ultra-reactionary Globo empire. In a stance of semiotic genius, Lula pointed to Globo’s helicopter hovering over the masses gathered for the speech, implying the organization is too cowardly to get close to him on ground level.
And, significantly, he got right into the heart of the Bolsonaro question: the militias. It’s no secret to informed Brazilians that the Bolsonaro clan, with its origins in the Veneto, is behaving as a sort of cheap, crude, eschatological carbon copy of the Sopranos, running a system heavy on militias and supported by the Brazilian military. Lula described the president of one of the top nations in the Global South as no less than a militia leader. That will stick – all around the world.
So much for “Lula peace and love,” which used to be one of his cherished mottos. No more conciliation. Bolsonaro [the Dog in the national Driving Seat] now has to face real, fierce, solid opposition, and cannot run away from public debate any more.”
https://thesaker.is/released-lula-in-for-greatest-fight-of-his-life/
It’s weird that the World Socialist Website doesn’t have an article up yet about the coup? I think their last article about Bolivia was October 25th.
Sharon, it’s not weird at all. WSWS are the trots, their verbal diarrhea is controlled by a spigot, the tap turns on or off to order of the AZC. Venal British FM Jack Straw’s son is a typical trot; so are the New Liebourites who run The New New Stateman.
I don’t think “trot” is a useful analytical category; it’s not as if they’re all theoretically or organizationally unified, unless you expect “to order of the AZC” (which sounds like an actual antisemitic slur) to be taken seriously.
@Milosevic: ” it’s not as if they [the Trots] are all theoretically or organizationally unified, ”
That’s why Marx called it a “Class” War and not an “Organization” War. “Class” is as much a psychological and cultural affinity as an Organizational hierarchy — maybe more so. In 1920s Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and England there were Nature’s Nasties before they joined The Nazis; there are Nature’s Gentlemen; and there are Nature’s Trots.
PS: “Patroclus whom Achilles called Friend being likeminded with himself” — The Iliad
Marx certainly did not mean ‘class’ as a psychological or cultural matter. He meant it in a hard economical sense i.e. that our society is organised according to a system called capitalism which follows its own logic and demands. It’s not a question of whether some people are ‘cultured’, ‘kindly’ or ‘nasty’. It’s a question of what role they play in the socio-economic system. The owner of a corporation could be a wonderfully caring chap with reference to his friends and family. But in his job he is forced to follow capitalist imperatives, otherwise he will be replaced – either by a new boss, or his entire organisation by a competing one.
George, I know that Marx thought of himself as the Apostle of Dialectical Materialism and “hard economic sense”. But Marx was really a Romantic with a capital R — same exiled Generation of ’48 as poet Heinrich Heine and composer Richard Wagner, despisers of Rothschild and sympathisers with Les Miserables. Romantic sympathy with the poor and downtrodden, a longing for freedom and fellowship is the Lifeblood of Das Kapital — the rest is commentary. So Communism tends to attract people whose psyche has what neurologists call “a different bundle of qualities” from the sort of Nasties who tend to gravitate around Corporate Fascism. Not everyone in politics is an organized Party member, there are more individuals in the population at large whose varying “bundles of qualities” are pulled this way and that (eg, as voters or potential activists) by the gravitational pull of their own personal Elective Affinity with some Psychological Symbolism emanating from a given Party Manifesto.
No Das Kapital is not a Berlioz symphony. And “the rest” which is “commentary” is in fact the thing itself. We are not talking about detached individuals parked in their armchairs and watching the world as if it was the latest HBO series – free to follow whatever fancies take them. There ARE economic conditions. There IS capitalism. And there ARE tendencies that become manifest. And the “different bundle of qualities” that comprise the minds of neurologists will be just as subject to those economic forces as are the bundles of everyone else.
It is in the Readers Digest.
I was intrigued by your reference to the Reader’s Digest view of Das Kapital so I googled those terms and was directed to all sorts of curious sites – eventually ending up with a listing for an audio book version of Marx’s magnum opus which was appended with this review:
Serve you right for excessive literality.
Thanks George. I was contemplating penning a response to that absurd “the rest is commentary”.
“The rest” is the most penetrating, closely argued and empirically evidenced analysis of capitalism ever written. Capital 1 begins by putting its atomic unit, the commodity, under the microscope.
(Contrary to how Marx is ‘taught’ at university, he did not invert Hegel’s dialectical idealism to arrive at dialectical materialism. He found the dialectic in that analysis of the commodity to reveal a unity of opposites: use-value with exchange value (quality with quantity) … exchanges of labour as exchanges of things … really existing social relations, underpinned by armed force, as reified markets
Can Vexarb show how this treatment is “Romantic with a capital R”? I’m all ears.
Hmmm…
Late getting back to this–I’ve been having a bit of a scrap with Leonid Brezhnev’s underpants.
Good quote – but not one that negates my own point. Who would dispute that the young Marx was mightily influenced by this great thinker? At issue for me is the way undergrads are ‘taught’ Marx on philosophy and social science courses by professors – I know this as student and lecturer both – who haven’t read his most important work.
Again, Marx locates the dialectic in capitalism’s atomic unit because the commodity embeds a dynamic unity of opposites. That Hegel’s insights aided him is not in dispute. Nor is the fact that, in defending diaectical materialism, Marx found it theoretically and polemically useful to contrast his method with Hegel’s.
My contention is with the notions that (a) Marx began his inquiry with Hegel, and (b) there is any real basis for decalring the man a “Romantic with a capital R”.
Marx’s Critique of Hegel, a paper by Cyril Smith for the Hegel seminar, 18th June 1999.
and (b) there is any real basis for decalring the man a “Romantic with a capital R”.
https://off-guardian.org/2019/11/11/discuss-coup-in-bolivia/#comment-101535
It is clear from your first link that Cyril Smith (no, not that one!) thought that Marx began his inquiry with Hegel – although, to be sure, the early Marx doctoral thesis seems to confirm that. Your second link, presumably to prove that Marx was a “Romantic”, leads me to a comment about the WSWS that doesn’t mention Marx. So I am at a loss about that.
I’m at a loss, period, George. I took issue with vexarb – a commenter I often agree with – over a wild claim in this thread: of Marx as a romantic.
I did so not just because he’s wrong but because it matters. I see Marx as still vitally important, but wouldn’t were vexarb correct.
I dragged Hegel in because I’ve been hearing for decades – from smug professors who’ve never troubled to read those early and admittedly difficult chapters of Capital 1 (though it’s Janet and John at side of Science of Logic) – that Marx took Hegel and flipped it upside down. I say he found the dialectic because, yes, his grasp of Hegel’s method was a powerful aid, but more because his very materialist – ie not romantic – analysis of the commodity revealed it there.
That said, I’m through arguing the point. I’m sure there’s something Robbo cares passionately about, but I’ve not yet figured what it is. I see he has an active brain, and nice line in laconic wit – a welcome break from the verbosity common BTL – but have yet to decide whether there’s a big heartedness to go with it.
Fuckinged. At my age it is only a slight exaggeration to render it in the past tense. As Willie Nelson is reputed to have observed after waking in his bus after a hard night on the road again to find a beautiful young stranger in bed beside him, only to roll over and snooze on for a while, that one of the compensatory pleasures of old age is the realization you are no longer constantly being led around by your dick.
Goed.
“Romantic”?! I doubt that “proving” that Marx was a “Romantic”–except, perhaps, after lights out–would be logically possible. However I do think that his original impetus to “invert” Hegel’s idealism and, later, to develop earlier economists’ labour theory of value was far more profoundly driven by an ethical approach to society than by a desire for scientific rigour, however less ‘respectable’ ethics might seem in the ‘scientific’ milieu in which he sought to place his work.
Me too. Here it intermittently leads to an oblique scoff at vexarb’s proposal of Marxian Romanticism, as intended, or to the WSWS comment you mention, as not intended. I’d suggest a programming glitch (with greater familiarity, WordPress increasingly looks like–à la mode–a fairly undisciplined, programming exercise that’s typically easier to start over than to fix) but, if I were you, I wouldn’t mention that where the admins can read it in case they get ratty from overstress and play the trolling card.
You got me there, man. Marx did indeed read Hegel before beginning his monumental work on Capital. My bad. All the best mate.
Do you believe in Cheeses? Beware of Philadelphians.
Show her(?) this:
If I can figure out who “her” is then I will show her. In the mean time, your quote doesn’t seem to contradict what I said. “certain historical phases in the development of production” refers to economic systems surely?
Walk away George. Walk away.
For “her”, try “her(?)”, as posted. From her(?) accumulated comments My deductions about vexarb are that she(?) is a Christian Zionist (or at least Israel ‘champion’) of the feminine(?) gender. BICBW.
Why do you (and many others) always anticipate contradiction?
Sorry Robbo – I anticipated contradiction because I thought you were challenging me, not vexarb.
At least you know what a spigot is. Now all you have to do is to figure out where to put it.
Can’t agree, Vexarb. I don’t always side with WSWS but find their posts cogent and, unlike the wild claims you’ve made more than once in this thread, closely argued.
And what on earth do you mean, “WSWS are the trots”? The trots? The 4th international has been splitting into a thousand splinterettes since WW2. And now, on just about the most polarised issue of our day – imperialism’s wars on the middle east – “the trots” have been calling it wrong since Iraq 2002. Including, alas, my old outfit, Workers Power.
The one exception has been the splinterette to emerge from the implosion of Gerry Healy’s WRP. Which one? You got it, WSWS. They alone are getting it right on Syria. I don’t know about you but that counts for something in my book.
Sorry Philip, I misunderstood you there. When you said,
I was confused since by “calling it wrong” I thought you meant “the trots” have been saying the war is wrong – which would surely make them right. But I am assuming that by “calling it wrong” you mean “getting it wrong”? That would make sense of your statement.
My bad, George. I did indeed mean ‘getting it wrong’. My vernacular turn of phrase houses a double meaning I didn’t spot.
They have:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/12/mora-n12.html
Any attempt to establish socialist government in any country that has an annual GDP of more than US $10 has, in this period of time, only two choices: set it up as a Leninist-Stalinist gulag-style or similarly oppressive state, or prepare from the beginning to otherwise* deal from the beginning with internationally and locally based subversion and revolt or sponsorship thereof, up to and including the best organized and best financed mayhem and destruction that modern capitalism can deliver. That’s not axiomatic, it’s just all but so.
There was an attempt to overthrow the Syrian Regime in 1982 at Hama using takfiri groups, orchestrated by outside forces.
This was instantly crushed by Hafez Assad with as much brute force as was necessary.
A lot of people were killed, probably less than the 10,000 or even 20,000 bandied about by the MSM.
If his son Bashar had been similarly ruthless in 2011, Syria would have been spared incalculable suffering.
The same consideration applies to any country facing US orchestrated colour revolutions and regime changes.
Venezuela, Bolivia, Ukraine, Serbia, Georgia, so many other places.
Traitors and quislings deserve no quarter. They should be crushed like cockroaches. This saves immeasurable misery later.
Washington’s regime change operation in China was nipped in the bud at Tiananmen Square.
This prevented China being reduced to the misery and destitution of 1990s Russia.
The externally orchestrated unrest in Hong Kong should have been suppressed long ago with similar energy and ruthlessness. Failure to do so juts stores up further trouble in the future.
Hypothetical, especially as old Hafez “Fuckup’n’coverup” Assad made more dismissed-by-pretending-they-weren’t mistakes per month than the average naughty, autistic kindergarten student makes in an entire academic year. Not excluding leaving his son with an unworkable mess of an effectively ally-free, one-man, smack-smacky vanity state to sort out.
Excellent
“Fuckncoverup” Hafez brought stability to Syria for 30 years after a period where there was an externally orchestrated coup on average every 9 months.
Bashar’s “smacky smacky state” fought off the Axis of Evil and its hundreds of thousands of US/ UK/ Kosherstan/ Erdogan/ Shady Wahabia directed head choppers and throat slitters despite everything the Evil Folk and the Kosher Folk threw at it.
Not bad for an unworkable mess of a state.
Nobody said that Bashar hasn’t done a pretty good job of rescuing the potty mess his Daddy made despite the colossal odds stacked against him. Can’t you separate two distinct sentences? (The clue is in the little dots at the ends.)
The mental illness, though…
Joan Witte — Violence in Lenin’s thought and practice: The spark and the conflagration
Thank you. I read it in a borrowed photocopy some years ago and didn’t look further than the abstract which Google threw up, as that was sufficient here.
i.e. any country
I doubt if it has any choice at all. Would the Western forces permit it? But let’s see the choices:
Assuming that non-socialist states, e.g. the ones throughout the West, are not oppressive and becoming increasingly so – as seems to be indicated by this next bit:
I’m not sure what this “from the beginning” is supposed to mean. What beginning? Every country and society and person in the society has to start from where they are i.e. with a history. And I assume you mean that this ruthless socialist state must root out all (capitalist) opposition to it and therefore incur the wrath of capital (“best organized and best financed mayhem and destruction that modern capitalism can deliver”). All of which takes us back to the first choice anyway.
https://williambowles.info/2019/11/11/statement-by-the-political-committee-of-the-movimiento-al-socialismo-movement-for-socialism-of-bolivia/
Statement by the Political Committee of the Movimiento Al Socialismo (Movement for Socialism) of Bolivia
November 11, 2019
11 November 2019 — Internationalist 360°
Resist today to fight again tomorrow
Today, November 10, Bolivia’s humble citizens, its workers, the Aymara and Quechua peoples, we begin the long road of resistance to defend the historical achievements of the first indigenous government that ended today with the forced resignation of our president Evo Morales at the hands of a civilian-police coup.
Let history bear witness to our commitment to defend the nationalizations and industrialization program, our public companies, and our social policies and national symbols.
Today the right and the coup plotters seized the Wiphala (our indigenous banner and the dual of the Bolivian nation), and with it, they tore down our dignity as indigenous peoples. We will not kneel, we will defend our constitutional symbols.
Over the coming days, the hunting down of our comrades will continue. Our responsibility is to safeguard one another like a family, to rebuild the social fabric, to care for and protect our persecuted leaders. Today is the moment of solidarity, tomorrow will be the time for reorganization and to the step forward in the struggle that will not end with these sad events.
Our slogan is to resist today to fight again tomorrow. Our actions will defend the achievements of the greatest government in the history of Bolivia.
Our country or death!!!
The MAS makes history, the right is disgrace!!!
November 10, 2019
Bolivia
Originally published in Spanish at Rebelión.org
Translation by Struggle – La Lucha
I read recently that the reserves of lithium {The new oil} is high in Bolivia and that Morales was not too keen on allowing Bolivia to be ripped off by mining companies. Shock horror. He wanted Bolivia to benefit.I think that we all suspect some level of outside interference. https://sputniknews.com/latam/201911111077282328-audios-containing-details-of-alleged-coup-plan–us-involvement-emerge-amid-bolivian-crisis/?fbclid=IwAR0QZsK3CDEpZoVibcvh31-_9xxbEgDRtBf4zzVopXtYYYtaX7qGTKNr90c
See also:
Bolivian Coup Comes Less Than a Week After Morales Stopped Multinational Firm’s Lithium Deal
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/11/11/bolivian-coup-comes-less-week-after-morales-stopped-multinational-firms-lithium-deal
But years after he came to power…
I refer you to my original comment towards the beginning off this thread “Oil ? No, Lithium ? Yes – you are absolutely correct, this is a clear case of Uncle Sam ticking yet another box on his list – Guatemala (1954) Haiti (1991 and 2004) Honduras (2009) El Salvador (1980s) Nicaragua (1980s) Panama (1989) Dominican Republic (1965) Venezuela (2002 and attempted again 2019) Chile (1973) Brazil (1964) Argentina (1976) and, by the way, this isn’t their first crack at Bolivia they interfered earlier in 1964. The pattern is simple – any nation that has a rich reserve of natural resources and that wishes to use its own common-wealth for the betterment of all through self-determination with policies of social inclusion and universal welfare is targeted by these psychopathic and sociopathic elites who know not the meaning of partnership and co-operation. And their dysfunctional mentality resounds through that echo-chamber of shills and trolls who contaminate the discussion with their feeble minded confections.
Fascinating headline in Guardian
Hong Kong Man shot by police and burns victim in critical condition
Man shot by police and burns victim in critical condition
Very prominent that one victim was shot by police, but no mention that the burn victim had flammable liquid thrown on him and was then set alight for arguing with protesters. Mainstream media stink.
One or two thugs and rioters in HK have been shot and wounded after attacking police.
Cue howls of outrage from the hyperventilating MSM.
At the same time, dozens in Chile and Ecuador have been shot dead in protests against the IMF’s satraps and Washington’s darlings. Hundreds have been killed in Iraq.
Move along there please, nothing to see here.
“One or two.” In other words, you don’t know or care.
And you don’t know or care how many kids have been shot in the head by IDF kiddie killers with British sniper rifles and dum dum bullets in Gaza. But I’ll give you a clue. It’s a lot more than in Hong Kong. It’s just that one shot and wounded Hong Kong thug is worth 100,000 murdered Palestinian kids as far as the BBC and media hacks are concerned.
You provided no evidence that i dont care about dead Palestinian kids.
Message to Trump : ‘See,we do what we want, where we want, when we want – YOU do what WE tell you, or else.
Got it chief?’
In the fortress which can not be approached by foot comes the manic laughing as the phoneline to the White House situation room goes dead “Haw haw haw haw..”
“Now lets go sort out that pipsqueak Corbyn before he takes over there! – get the Fart on line”
Cue: evil droning music and wild cackling and chanting from their high tower – sounds like ‘hurry, hurry, hurry kiss him sir…’
………
The fight is moving from the ME to SA.
The biggest fight will be over Africa.
But we have the biggest fight ever, right now, right here…
Win that first then we can win them there.
No pasaran!
It would seem the phone line to the White Helmets is now closed. May be permanently after this. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7672621/British-founder-White-Helmets-Syria-dead-days-Russia-accused-spy.html
Well – that is convenient.
No trial for him then.
Presumably his role of staging the various chemical attack false flags with his ‘volunteer’ paid WH’s won’t be aired in court now.
Is it the blow back? Or the pay back? The old Tank regimenters must be shaken today. What are Hamish, Pablo and Mark thinking? Still no sign of the ruskies from Salisbury!
Up in the tower HK gulps then orders more death to settle his aging nerves.
Corbyn will be weeping.
Morales and Corbyn have some nice ideas. Unfortunately, they are either incapable of implementing them, or are prevented from doing so.
Morales has actually grown from being a decent man into a bit of a corrupt tinpot, enriching himself at the expense of the workers, building palacial residences, etc.
That’s the way that all far left revolutions end up, eventually. In some ways they are as exploitative by those at the top of the pile as are neoliberal rulers. It’s the human condition, sadly.
Scandinavian-Germanic social democracy is the fairest system we’ve invented so far. Unfortunately the neoliberals are trying to replace it.
“Scandinavian-Germanic social democracy” is finished. You can thank the EU for that.
As a Norwegian I must say: Yes, there are good things in Norway, but do you think we would have them if the Labour party (Arbeiderpartiet) had opposed NATO in the post-war era? Our lifestyle is sadly built on imperialism and oil. That is not to say we don’t have some very healthy values in Norway I am quite proud of. Even the most right wing politicians in Norway support the welfare state. And I love the allemannsrett/the right to roam. But there is a global system with some winners, like Norway, and some losers, like Bolivia. Bolivia doesn’t have the same starting point as Norway at all.
Blimey Frank that didn’t go down well did it!
You’ll be joining me soon on the naughty step
At least i gave you an up vote thingy👍
Indeed Crispy.
OffG, when I started reading it, I guess 3 years ago, had far more balanced opinions BLT. These days it seems that any opinion to the right of Leon Trostsky is considered to be Neoliberal or fascist here and even gets some of them foaming at the mouth.
Sigh.
‘BLT’ = ‘bacon, lettuce & tomato’. What you’re reaching for here is ‘BTL’. 🙂
I think ‘bacon, lettuce & tomato’ makes more sense in the Frank Speaker world. He does seem to be pining for the days when we could be more ‘balanced’ and ‘civilised’ and confine ourselves to culinary investigations.
Trotsky, eh? Yes it’s amazing how far back you have to go to find a convenient bogey man on the Left. That’s because all of the prominent figures are now, if you’re lucky, in the centre. The fact that a mild – and indeed timid – Left reformer like Corbyn is now regarded as ‘extreme’ is a perfect example of that. Indeed – it’s telling that, with this anti-Semitism shit, the figure Corbyn is being implicitly linked with is Hitler. The media would not want to draw a comparison with Marx, Lenin or Trotsky because first, most of the tabloid chewers wouldn’t have a clue who these people were and second, if they heard about those figures they might get interested, start to read up on them and come to the conclusion that actual socialism isn’t such a bad thing after all.
“It’s the human condition, sadly.”
You mean “It’s the neoliberal condition, gladly.”
Strange how everybody who gets in the way of Neocohen and globalist corporate interests suddenly becomes a “corrupt, tinpot dictator.” However frugal a lifestyle they actually lead.
The mystery down voter is at it again! With his might and vengeance he gives every comment a down vote. That’s a sophisticated method.
It’s that idiot Crispy. I wondered where they were coming from also.
I’ve been wondering if crispy is our old friend William HBonney. Incidentally – and no doubt purely by coincidence – I noticed that a recent World Socialist Website article had exaclty one down vote applied to almost every comment. I reckon our little troll gets about.
I wouldn’t be surprised George. Trolls everywhere when you have sites like this one. Just been round a number of sites, and the trolls are out in force cheering the coup, and sticking the boot into Evo Morales.
Regards the WSWS, I went to a meeting on Sunday organised by the SEP, in support of Julian Assange and Chelsea Manning.
Put my name down for doing street campaigning with them to drum up more support for Julian and Chelsea leading up to a public meeting in Melbourne on Dec 15th. Need to get more actively involved, and be at the coalface, so to speak.
He has to earn those shekels.
Just looked at Telesur plus twitter account of Eva Golinger. Apparently Evo Morales’ house has been ransacked by right wing thugs as well as his sisters house. Unverified reports of an arrest warrant issued for Evo Morales, tho this denied by the Police Chief.
A lawmaker called Jeanine Anez has just been sworn in as interim President.
I have a bad feeling about what’s unfolding in Bolivia right now, and am deeply concerned for the safety this man.
Mexico has offered Evo Morales political asylum. 20 former lawmakers belonging to MAS have taken refuge in the Mexican Embassy according to twitter @Telesur
I’ll be surprised if he makes it to Mexico though. If the army don’t stop him, his plane may be intercepted upon US instructions.
That already happened when Morales was flying in the presidential jet from Russia back home over the EU, I think it was the Austrians who intercepted him. This broke all diplomatic protocols, yet there was no MSM outrage. They were actually looking for Snowden whom they thought was being taken to Bolivia for asylum.
Trying not to make lots of comments on this one thread Frank (already made abt 9). But it’s polite to respond. Okay, both Argentina and Brazil have already banned any plane containing Morales from using their airspace, tho Argentina is odd as its south of Bolivia, and he’s going to Mexico. You’re correct about the Austrians.
Part of me thinks he’ll end up like Julian Assange, and won’t even get out of Bolivia. I hate thinking that, but these Fascist pigs are baying for blood. And they have the full support of the United States. And the CIA. Have a good day Frank.
Morales has gone to Mexico now, courtesy of the Mexican Air Force.
Foggy Bottom and Langley must be fuming.
There has been widespread thuggery and political terrorism. Attacks on government ministers and officials and their homes, threats to them and their families. Widespread violence and rioting, arson attacks and damage to public property. All in a day’s work for Uncle Sam’s well paid proxies in the fight for “freedom and democracy.” Though of course it is all carefully airbrushed out of the MSM, as in Hong Kong.
The old style Bolsheviks countered charges of their seizure of power and lack of democratic accountability by arguing that they would never be allowed to take power by peaceful means. Trying to do so was a fool’s errand. If they did so, they would be immediately overthrown in a coup, or orchestrated violence of the sort we have seen in Venezuela and Bolivia.
The lesson is clear. Any socialist movement, whether in Bolivia, Britain, or anywhere else, needs what is in effect a political paramilitary militia to protect the government against organised violence and terror when the police and army refuse to do so. To protect government officials and their families, public buildings and infrastructure. To confront thugs and rioters. This need not be an armed force, but you have to be realistic. It needs to be ready to fight fire with fire, and repay these thugs in their own coin. That’s what it takes. The alternative is to just accept some Washington satrap like Gweedo usurping power. Chavez was rescued from being deposed or murdered when millions of ordinary people took to the streets.
There is a lesson from Bolivia for the UK. “We Lie, We Cheat, We Steal” Pompeo has already publicly threatened to “deal with” Corbyn. Trump has stated that a Corbyn victory is simply not acceptable. His best friend Farage has abandoned his plans to take votesd from Bojo by standing in 600 seats. It’s now over to Plan B – stand in the Labour heartlands and siphon off the anti Brexit votes from Corbyn.
But should Corbyn somehow succeed in winning anyway, there is always the Bolivian option for Trump and Pompeo and the Deep State. You just have to understand and accept that constitutional politics are a thing of the past. The currency of today’s politics lies in coups, violence, propaganda smears, corruption and criminality.
You hit several large nails on the head in your reply (as usual). Whatever violence is needed to fully crush any resistance to the coup, they’ll use.
My contempt for the putrefyed presstitutes is almost bottomless.
And Trump and Pompeo will be babbling on about the ‘democratic process’ and the ‘rule of law’ being upheld, while Fascist thugs go on a blitzkrieg against anyone belonging to the MAS.
Which the ‘media’ will hush up. As usual.
I’m with you there Gezzah when you say “My contempt for the putrefyed presstitutes is almost bottomless” – I will go further and say that mine goes to depths that are unfathomable – these are not journalists like Snowden, Mate, Assange, Blumenthal and Vitchek – on the contrary, they are just stenographers for the Deep State – they are persons of zero integrity – as are those who support their narratives.
@GP and AB:
Bought Journalists
by Udo Ulfkotte was recently discussed here.
It is easier to find a small needle in a huge haystack,
than any journalist with integrity and work ethic.
The question can only be:
For how much longer will the masses be insulted with
the mental cesspoool garbage called MSM-‘news’?
In German there is a proverb stating:
“Die Leute für dumm verkaufen.”
It work(ed)s there like a charm.
“To sell people for stupid.”
“For how much longer will the masses be insulted with
the mental cesspoool garbage called MSM-‘news’?” As one of ‘the masses’ it is my belief that people are slowly waking to the harsh realities that have been continually imposed upon them by the forces of Neo-liberalism – I have high hopes – I have faith in the wisdom of the common man – I have to – there is no other option.
Weren’t there protests against Moreno in Ecuador, real protests from the rural folk who came into the city? What happened? Ecuador just got what will come to Bolivia unless someone intervenes.
Today on the ABC there was a story spun about how this coup all started with the Amazon fires, which Morales said he could fight but then conceded to accept help, including from Russia. He didn’t mention the lithium. I wonder if Greta Thunberg will drop in there to join the protests on her way to Chile…
Apparently the UN climate change conference Thunberg is supposed to attend in Chile has been moved to Spain instead (because of the unrest in Chile) and Thunberg now finds herself stranded and needs help to reach Spain in time before the conference begins. So there’ll be no Friday school strikes in Chile in early December.
The last I heard about the protests in Ecuador is that Lenin Moreno was forced to move his government to Guayaquil. Presumably that city is a better place to escape from into overseas exile should Moreno’s government fall.
Yes, I presume the Amazon rainforest fires were being used to try to justify an R2P-type invasion of Bolivia before Evo Morales spoilt everything by saying his government could stop unnecessary fires and actually did so, and someone else spoilt everything even more by pointing out there were more forest fires in Africa happening at the same time as the fires in South America.
Flying won’t fly with her…
Lenin Moreno who handed over Julian Assange to associates in Mi6/CIA? Would they create a coup against their loyal guy?
When will someone ‘ask’ Mike Pompeo to resign?
Will they have to threaten 150 million deaths in nuclear armageddon for him to do his duty?
The coup d’etat in Chile happened 46 years ago. Presumably, the details of that event are reasonably well-known in the rest of South America.
Did it not occur to the Bolivian government to either establish reliable control over the military, as was done in Venezuela, or to create popular self-defence militias, as was also done in Venezuela?
Unfortunately Evo Morales does not have a military background whereas Hugo Chavez did and that difference must have had enormous consequences. Chavez had the support of the armed forces and that gave him the confidence to cultivate a network of militias in both urban and rural communities. Morales did not have that support among the armed forces.
Not all indigenous peoples in Bolivia necessarily support Morales either. His support base is among Aymara and Quechua speakers in the highland areas.
Significantly Santa Cruz department – the largest department by area and population, and the wealthiest, in part because of its natural gas resources – is the source of most of Morales’ opposition. Indigenous peoples in Santa Cruz have very little in common with the Aymaras and Quechua-speaking indigenes. So the forces arrayed against Morales are probably more united, have considerable wealth and may be able to persuade or bully indigenous communities in Santa Cruz for those people to support them.
Here you can see them celebrating. Also mind that the white helmets are already there and the presence of brand new Toyota trucks.
I hope this works. If not, here is the link to the article. (on PressTV)
Will there be an election?
Given past history not likely.
But if so:
(i) Morales et al. will be prohibited from running in it (based on some trumped up charge, as with Lula) or outright hunted down and murdered;
(ii) only after MAS and other left movements have been effectively suppressed;
(iii) only after a strong propaganda campaign to impugn every political current outside the neoliberal pro-US one;
(iv) only after the vote is rigged sufficiently to pick up loose ends. Therefore only after a minimum of two months has elapsed.
Will Evo Morales be allowed to run?
No (see above)
If not, will his Vice President?
No (see above & MAS being suppressed)
Will there be protests?
Yes. The coup regime will suppress them, as it appears the cops and military already are prepared to do so without any need of extra bribing from the coup regime.
Will the military be “forced” to violently put them down, whilst declaring a “state of emergency”?
Yes (see above). They might use the word ‘sadly’ a lot, as in ‘our sad duty’ and so on.
Are we witnessing the end of the last untouched Bolivarian Republic?
The Bolivarian Republic is a symbol but never a substantial break with capitalism. The Bolivian (and Venezuelan) bourgeoisie still exist and still control large swathes of the economy and most importantly the state. Their state is still committed to defending their property and profits. Until the bourgeois state is shattered and replaced by a workers state that expropriates the ruling capitalist oligarchy, there will be no escaping this cycle of ‘socialist’ governments being swept away by the rulers when the opportunity arises. A political party, no matter what its complexion, at the head of a bourgeois state is still at the mercy of that state and the ruling class and social system that state defends and upholds.
Therefore, what is being witnessed is yet another predictable cycle.
How many of the Bolivian opposition politicians just so happened to have been educated in the United States?
Probably a majority, but that’s not relevant. What’s immediately relevant is how many of the officer corps have been educated in the The School of the Americas.
Morales will probably be banned from elections on trumped up corruption charges, like Lula in Brazil. His party may simply be banned, like the Kiev Coup Regime banned all opposition parties in another US “triumph of democracy.”
Escaping “this cycle” depends on a lot more than shattering bourgeousies and expropriating oligarchies (as Trotsky said to Stalin over vodkas at Lenin’s wake, while Lenin was saying “Hi” to Marx).
You might try and get your facts straight. Trotsky at the time of Lenin’s death was in Tiflis, ill from malaria. He was told the funeral was on a Saturday and wouldn’t make it, but it was on a Sunday when he could have. The last thing Stalin wanted was for Trotsky to appear at Lenin’s funeral and as his heir apparent. So Trotsky was hardly able to say anything to ‘Stalin over vodkas at Lenin’s wake’. Your attempt to smuggle in the afterlife only further undermines your point.
Now to your point. The cycle I referred to was of the capitalists getting rid of democratically elected ‘socialist’ governments, governing over bourgeois societies (eg, Bolivia, Venezuela) at the first opportunity. Then sometime down the track the right wing regime is overthrown and another ‘socialist’ government installed only to be swept away at the next opportunity. No bourgeoisie, no such cycle. And to prevent a genuine workers state being swept away by counterrevolution, the revolution would need to be spread to all the imperialist centres, especially to the ‘belly of the beast’.
I wasn’t trying to get my facts straight. However, Your Staightlacedness, I have been moved by your reprimand to fact check the heavenly meeting of Lenin and Marx. St Peter reports that that one is wrong too. At the time of Stalin and Trotsky’s misreported tipple, Lenin was in a holding cell at the Pearly Gates awaiting deprogramming and Marx had absconded to warmer climes some years earlier. My bad.
Sorry, lame humour based on a lie to push snide anti-communism doesn’t raise a laugh in me, more so when used as a cover for an equally lame rhetorical point. You’re no CJ Hopkins.
I’m no anti-communist either. Loosen up Stalin.
You’re still no CJ Hopkins.
Not something I personally consider any great disadvantage in life. Horses for courses. Find a more appropriate put down for this kind of horse. He says “potato” and I say “potato”. He says “tomato” and I say “tomato”. Potato, potato, tomato, tomato…
Exclaimer: No disrespect to Mr Hopkins, he clearly has a lot of admirers and no disrespect to most of those either.
So how about just crossing out the part in parentheses, as any half-perceptive, non-corset-bound citizen might do without prompting?
Which is what I did to respond to your more substantive point.
Permanent revolution. Part of the answer, not a hint of which appeared in your original post. Well done for catching up.
Been caught up on Permanent Revolution for years, and of course it’s part of the answer. As also is the necessity of a Bolshevik party to lead a revolution which I didn’t mention either. Along with a lot of other stuff.
Ah yes, vanguardism. A badly psychologically flawed Lenin’s gift to a psychotic Stalin: the basis of megalomaniacal authoritarian state capitalism. Worth another crack. Might get lucky.
The staple of all anti-communists is that the ‘tyrannical’ Bolshevik vanguard party led to Stalinist tyranny. Your reference to Trotsky’s permanent revolution misled me to think you’d actually read and digested some of Trotsky’s understanding and reasoning. Sadly no. So read some, particularly his Lessons of October (about the need for a revolutionary party, a party which understands that insurrection, revolution and civil war is an art); and Revolution Betrayed (for a Marxist, materialist understanding, rather than the bourgeois, idealist fairytale you’re replicating, of why and how Stalin and the Stalinist bureaucracy arose in the USSR).
In his early days Trotsky also was an anti-vanguardist with a Menshevist position on the party question. But he came to learn from real world experience that idealist categories matter for nought if overthrowing a ruling class and building a workers state to defend a revolution is to occur. Revolution and civil war are the outcome of an entrenched ruling class that will defend its privileges and property to the end. To not understand or to underestimate this is suicidal, and eschewing the need for leadership only provides the cyanide.
The working class may have the social power to carry out a revolutionary social transformation but it doesn’t have the time, resources, education or any of the other advantages that the bourgeoisie had when they were able to use the peasantry and urban masses to overthrow feudal aristocracies, as classically shown by the French revolution. A leadership (a ‘vanguard’ no less — such a no-no in liberal circles) with a thorough political, historical and materialist understanding of the task at hand, which essentially substitutes for the advantages the bourgeoisie had; a leadership that imbues the working class, particularly its advanced layers, with an understanding of the need for revolution and how to carry one out; a leadership that has absorbed the historical lessons of past revolutions, particularly those that failed — without such a leadership the working class will remain a ‘class in itself’, won’t become a ‘class for itself’ otherwise, and humanity will remain captive to the capitalism’s downward spiral to our extinction.
Of necessity such an understanding comes from the outside, from declassed professional revolutionaries organised in a combat party. This is a fact of life that Lenin, and eventually Trotsky, learnt that anarcho-syndicalists, anti-vanguardists and all the other liberals can never acknowledge or accept. Which doesn’t matter really, just so long as it’s learnt by the working class and oppressed who come to understand that to overthrow capitalism the necessary pre-requisite is a steeled leadership well versed in the art of revolution.
Lenin, Trotsky and the Bolsheviks made the first and so far only successful workers revolution, so they tended to know what they were talking about. Anarchists, anarcho-syndicalists, anti-vanguardists and all the other ‘revolutionary’ phrasemongers have never overthrown the capitalist class and they never will.
Luck alone has little to do with it, except that it favours the prepared mind, and that ‘mind’ of the working class will be its revolutionary vanguard.
I’ve read both of those through once and parts of both several times more than once, and I’m not replicating any bourgeois, idealist fairytale.
There follows, under same link to Lenin’s “Testament”, Trotsky’s long, December 1932 explanation of its background and implications, set in the context of a refutation of an author of that period’s misinterpretation of practically everything to do with the 1917 revolution (which I haven’t read, except as excerpts).
Successful workers’ revolution? Ten years from Lenin’s “democratic” vanguard to the irreversibility of Stalin’s bureaucratic monstrosity? And Methus’lah lived 900 years. Yes, Methus’lah lived 900 years! But who calls that livin’ when no gal will give in to no man what’s 900 years?
Good luck with that anyway.
You say you’ve read these works by Trotsky (and parts ‘several times more than once’), but appear not to have taken much in, particularly Trotsky’s understanding of the why and how the Russian revolution degenerated. Instead of quoting Lenin’s last testament at length, why don’t you actually refute Trotsky’s materialist and Marxist analysis of the rise of Stalinism, from a Marxist and materialist standpoint, instead of resorting to all this tired old bourgeois claptrap you’re propounding? A Robert Conquest would be particularly proud of, ‘Ten years from Lenin’s “democratic” vanguard to the irreversibility of Stalin’s bureaucratic monstrosity’.
The Bolshevik revolution was successful: they made a workers revolution and established the first workers state in history. But at the outset Lenin and Trotsky also recognised — in line with Trotsky’s Permanent Revolution that you seem to quote, gratuitously as it transpires — that if the revolution didn’t spread it would result in social counterrevolution and capitalist restoration. It didn’t immediately turn out that way (that came with Yeltsin, with grovelling support from the likes of the ISO), and instead a political counterrevolution led by Stalin occurred. The socialised property forms remained but with soviet democracy and an economy already severely enfeebled by imperialist-backed civil war, the resulting great material scarcity and hardship were the material roots for the rise of the Stalinist bureaucracy. It took Trotsky some time to figure the details of this out, and today’s Marxists are the beneficiaries of that.
Despite the Stalinist bureaucratic caste, or despite Jacobin bloodshed or Napoleon crowning himself emperor as an outcome of the French revolution, these revolutions were still successful, not just in their immediate overthrow of a defunct social order. The soviet population was materially better off after than before the October revolution, despite and against the best efforts of the imperialists in sabotaging the revolution at every turn. Such sabotage simply created the conditions for a psychopathic creature like Stalin and the bureaucracy he represented, and for these to endure, ‘irreversibly’.
Unlike your fatuous claim that the bureaucratic monstrosity was ‘irreversible’, it was, and at certain critical turning points things could have gone in the direction either of a political revolution to re-establish workers democracy on the basis of soviets, or in the direction of capitalist restoration. Unfortunately, the latter happened in 1991-92 in the USSR, and the consequent regression in class and socialist consciousness since then has been immeasurable. So much so, that many who call themselves ‘Marxist’ or ‘leftist’ today make the likes of Karl Kautsky look like Lenin.
It’s all about the lithium. Bolivia has a lot of it, and those giant batteries for solar panels and electric cars need it. “Green energy” will not put a stop to fossil fuel usage (and looting other countries for fossil fuels) either because solar panels and windmills are inadequate sources of power (see present-day Germany). Coup brought to you by carbon credit hungry banksters. Expect heating prices to skyrocket in the next few years. The banks need bailouts.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/05/06/the-reason-renewables-cant-power-modern-civilization-is-because-they-were-never-meant-to/
edited by Admin to fix link
Another article about the turnaround in Germany re: Solar investment
https://notrickszone.com/2019/11/10/germany-pulls-plug-on-wind-energy-wind-industry-in-severe-crisis-wind-giant-enercon-to-lay-off-3000/
And who was investing in coal at a time it was seemingly being left behind
https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/industrial-metals-investing/coal-investing/george-soros-coal-investing-climate-change/
Bolivia pull out of deal with Germany on joint Lithium project
https://www.dw.com/en/bolivia-scraps-joint-lithium-project-with-german-company/a-51100873
Thanks for the link.Now I understand why our Chancellor Merkel was so happy after Morales resigned. She was also very quick to recognize Guaidó as new president of Venezuela.Does anyone remember this guy?…Time for Merkel to beat it.
You are welcome Theo, I guess it suits German Industry (and I’m sure many others too) to have Morales out and Guaido in. As with all these deals, got to have the right ‘puppets’ and the right deals when it comes to natural resources to siphon off.
Thank you for this, Hope.
I note that the Forbes article states the obvious fact that the transition to renewables cannot work because people don’t want a pre-modern world. Sadly, We The People can want perpetual economic growth – aka modernity – fueled by coal, gas and oil all we want, but that desire will never make it work.
Logically then, the problem humanity faces is one of realistic expectations drowned out by our carefully fostered addiction to a way of life the planet cannot afford. Or, in other words, it is a problem of consciousness. We falsely see value as the acquisition of growing amounts of status symbols, forever. Our way out of our sickly unrealistic desires and demands is first via a change in our consciousness. Once we have that, whatever are the best technologies and institutions for getting done what needs to be done, will fall into place easily.
The first stage is really really hard, though, as history has shown repeatedly.
Of course people don’t want to live in a pre-modern world. Flinstones living sucks and it doesn’t help the environment, either. People will burn stuff, including trees, to cook and keep from freezing. The main point of the article is that renewables are not magic cures. They are inefficient and land intensive. Every form of energy presently available has its detriments. Most people are more concerned with surviving than acquiring status symbols. Who are you hanging out with? Sounds like rich white neolibs.
I hang out with my family, at home. My wife is half Filipino, half German, so only half white, which makes my daughters quarter white. My wife’s background is rich, mine a mixture of very poor (my mother) and rich, in that after my parents divorced my father shacked up with a very wealth socialite, and I spent every other weekend with them, surrounded by opulence.
More importantly, I think you misunderstood my point and tone. The article you link to has important information about the challenges we face; I’m genuinely grateful to you for bringing it to my attention.
As for Flinstones living at 7-8bn people, that won’t fly, for the reasons you state. And yes, there are no magic cures, which is, again, why I was grateful to you for the link. I like being exposed to reality as it is. Nonetheless, perpetual economic growth is impossible. Wanting it is wanting the impossible. I see that as a fact. Confronting that fact properly requires good information and a change in consciousness such that we learn to want what is healthy rather than what is simply habit and addiction. Of course I don’t know what the answers are re. energy/fuel, but one is most assuredly living in such a way that we don’t destroy the environment that sustains us.
Then confront this:
The human body is a remarkable system that can continue to function even well after many components essential to its continued functioning have been, in themselves, irreparably damaged.
The biosphere is a remarkable system that has continued to function even well after many components essential to its continued functioning have been, in themselves, irreparably damaged.
Cascade iatrogenesis is cascade iatrogenesis.
Thank you, Robbobbobin, for looking the madman in the eyes. It’s surprising to me how rarely people are willing to actually engage in a discussion about perpetual economic growth.
That said, your quotes above confirm my perspective. I’m not sure how you get from the quoted material to your true statements. Your comment therefore comes across to me as something of a non sequitur.
In case I’m wrong in that assessment, I’ll answer in two ways. Stating the obvious: humans and ecosystems do die, they are not infinitely resilient, as amazing as their resilience is. As an over-used and perhaps trite example, life on earth will not survive the explosion of the sun, nor would it survive a possible collapse of the universe or some other final universal catastrophe. There are limits.
The second is a parable, from some guy called Richard Price, which some call Joseph’s Penny…
The ‘how’ is by way of a ‘metaphor’.
Sorry, I could have communicated what I meant more clearly. That you were comparing living-system resilience to larger-scale biosphere resilience was clear. What is unclear is how that comparison in any way rebuts the assertion that perpetual economic growth is impossible. That’s where I see the non sequitur.
It doesn’t rebut it. It makes the different assertion that conversations that passed the last moulding remains of their ‘relevant until’ date at least forty or fifty years ago aren’t just like ‘pissing into the wind’, they’re all piss and wind. The time to fix the world with truisms is long gone.
It never existed.
What you assert now is that you don’t rebut a truth, you cast that truth as somehow decayed, passed being true? How can it have become untrue/irrelevant? Through overuse? How is that not a rebuttal in effect? The logic means very little to me except as meaningless casuistry born of your irritation at what I say, and possibly at how I say it.
On moulding conversations and for the record: I see the issue of perpetual growth as one gateway “truism” to a larger and far more nuanced conversation that, no matter how large or nuanced, is only one tiny part of action, in that it may or may not initiate that action. That’s what conversations at sites like this are about, surely, generally speaking anyway. Are your efforts here not in part motivated by a similar sense? Your impish, borderline-nihilistic humour is meant to communicate something, right? You privately enjoy lampooning some of the salon chatter here. I enjoy and value that lampooning, see it as important, even when I disagree with it. But even though it may be a private amusement, doesn’t it arise from something heartfelt? Aren’t your contributions to the conversation aimed in some small way at improvement? By disavowing people of their self-indulgence and self-importance, there is at least the small chance they notice and correct. And then there are your factual interjections, also meant to correct and inform, otherwise why comment at all?
I’m acutely aware that this is both far too long a response, and also inevitably too short, or likely off-target. Every now and again I choose to engage in the hope that I either learn something new, or get to know someone, via their perspective, a bit better. Every now and again it’s worth it. Perhaps this exchange has been one of those miscommunications that are so easy to stumble into online.
Then save yourself the bother. Stop trying to do it.
Not a simple case if not being true or being decayed truth, rather a case of not being true in advance. Consider the following.
It’s 1945 and two cats are sitting on a wall in downtown Hiroshima having a good old natter about the best way to swing the war more in Japan’s favour. Problem was they didn’t actually know anything about 20th century human war. Nothing. These were cats, not hepcats or cool cats; genus is important. Right at that moment Enola Gay Tibbets dropped her Big Boy and skedaddled. Now these cats were living in a cat matrix and unbeknownst to them on the wall, in another plane of their compartmentalized conciousness, they were advanced late Quaternary homo sapiens. Not only that, they were even several essential members of the teams that had painstakingly put together both Enola Gay and her Big Boy. Big Boy fell silently through the clear morning sky for quite a while* before there was one almighty explosion and both cats were instantly evaporated, having only a fraction of a final revelatory instant to dimly perceive the what, why and how of whatever it was that was happening.
I’ve pondered over the last couple of days whether there’s an important difference between seeking to improve myself and trying to fix the world with truisms. I think there is.
I’m not trying to fix the world with truisms. That perpetual growth is impossible is not a truism, it’s just true. You have not said anything that gainsays that, as far as I can tell. And I’m not trying to fix the world any more than you are. At this site, I’m assessing how effective it is to discuss difficult and complex topics on the internet in a sharply polarised environment, and monitor internally how effective my efforts are. Right now my assessment is pretty much as it has been all along: mixed results with a generalised “these things take time.” As you quote: “life is very long.”
Thus, interconnected cats or dogs or ants or humans unaware of a falling atomic bomb they co-created means very little to me in the context of our discussion. I know there are things we are unaware of. There are also things we’re aware of. Life goes on one way or another, but health trumps sickness, in the long run. So I choose health and my actions and decisions are guided by that choice. As for what health and sickness are, well that’s of course very involved stuff, which is I think your Zen-lite point, but one learns as one goes along. Life is very long. As for the intimate connectivity you reference: yes, very yes. I wouldn’t cast it quite as you have here, but on the whole I see reality that way.
So the way you aim your parable at me is, it seems, a kind of non sequitur, or the result of some stubborn misunderstanding – possibly due to the fact we are not face to face – in that it has nothing to do with the truth, non-truth, irrelevancy, or in-advance non-truth of perpetual growth being impossible, or, more importantly, why I repeat it like a stuck record. The net historical effect of the suffering caused by the falling bomb is beyond anyone’s ability to discern. The net historical effect of our systemic addiction to perpetual growth is equally impossible to discern, but this makes neither atomic bombs nor perpetual growth healthy per se. However, this, let’s say, healthy uncertainty is not in my view somehow a prescription for inaction or passivity. Humility, absolutely, but not passivity. It is our active learning from each phenomenon that counts – cats, dogs, humans, everything – and how we evolve as an expression of that learning. In other words, it’s the learning that interests and motivates me, here and elsewhere. That better defines how I participate than “trying to fix the world with truisms.”
Thank you, though, for staying in the exchange. I did not expect a response from you after my previous comment, so was gratified to receive it.
Aristotle and friends unintentionally rigged the rules. Because of that, some ways of retrospectively unrigging the rules, despite their spectacular material success, would have it as a truism.
Not aimed at you. Not aimed at any individual. A point I haven’t even tried to directly express other than in unparabled form before, hence its clumsiness. I don’t at all disagree with your stuck record. Partly my point is that so many other people have made it so consistently for so long–millennia–that even if it were not a truism from the way we have constructed our mind for generation upon generation, by now such venerability alone would render it one.
In this instance was not trying to suggest that cats or any other life form is intimately interconnected with us (although they all are, along with the totality of all else), I was trying to state that the problem your record is stuck on is wholly contained within us; that, unparableized, we–or, more exactly, our collective fatally rigged mental construct of reality–has rendered us unable to see that we are the cats. Despite having designed and constructed the bomb we remain blissfully unaware of what we have done, even after “the bomb”, a poetic device as well as poetic justice, has exploded.
Bluntly: it is no use now worrying that “perpetual growth” is unhealthy. It is not that it will kill us, it’s that it already has. We finally ran out of life (at least this species’ life) at least decades ago. But as Eliot noted “Life is very long” so we just haven’t been forced to acknowledge it yet. American jailers have a saying to announce the final march of a convict from death row to execution chamber: “Dead man walking.” It really makes no difference if he decides, while en route, to go vegan for sound health reasons in future. Short of a last minute reprieve his last meal, whatever it was, will never be digested.
There are only two values I really value in online discussions: the opportunity to post (relatively) anonymously should you so choose, the opportunity to post almost entirely free of “community standards” or constant “moderation” and the opportunity to return to past threads to amplify or post modifications to earlier posts for an indefinite period of time, thus rendering feasible some semblance of real life conversations as well as passing pronouncements (that can often lie just as well as cameras).
Oh wait–that’s three values. Anyway, the Off-Guardian scores on both.
It looks like we are in close agreement. Where we differ, it seems, is in the stubbornness of the optimism I choose to live, to the degree that I can. The details of that choice may or may not become apparent to you should my comments at OffGuardian be guided towards explication on that point over time, but for now that would drag this exchange too far.
As for perpetual growth, yes, it is in civilisational dna, as far as I’m concerned … but not human. It is one expression of a particular immaturity of consciousness that places us at the center of reality. (That consciousness does evolve, however fitfully.) Here is a quote from William Ophuls on that point:
“As a process, civilization resembles a long-running economic bubble. Civilizations convert found or conquered ecological wealth into economic wealth and population growth.”
On the ‘doomed’ Titanic, because reality is about far more than human hungers, fears and needs, I would choose to do what’s right for my fellow passengers in the service of that reality, regardless of any outcome I can detect with my limited foresight. In part that choice was and is still informed by Disney’s Mulan. Go figure.
“Expect heating prices to skyrocket in the next few years”
No, Hope.
Nordstream2 is soon to complete and go on line. Turkstream is doing fine. Hell even the Ukrainians are ready to stabilise their pipline routes now that they realise the Nato Atlantic Euro dream is not going to happen. They are not going to frack their gas.
Something like the whole EU consumption of natural gas and LPG is due to come on line upstream in the next few years.
Checkout the price of gas – that is heating/cooking gas, not gasoline – this year. It has been dropping and will do further.
My heating bills in Europe from gas central heating are falling.
Both natural gas and LPG, obtained and processed properly, have something like 50%-60% the direct environmental degredation factors (CO2, etc) of other fossil fuels such as coal or oil/diesel/petrol/coal. However, when all factors are considered in the what price “price” stakes, natural gas and LPG are up for nomination as the assiduous environmentalist’s equivalent of the gold digger’s iron pyrite, a.k.a. “fools gold”.
When you run out of viable quick fixes you have to rely on viable slow fixes. When you run out of viable slow fixes, then you’re in a fix.
Not ‘No Hope’, ‘No hope’.
[Cut&Paste from a Truther site where Americans share concern for Syria. I believe SyrPer analyst Canthama is from Brazil.]
“Canthama BTL SyrPer News #305554
As info arrives, it seems the Leader of Senate and the Leader of the Lower House resigned as well (Legislative power). They were all in line for the Presidency. There is only one more in line, who is the President of the Judicial power, but yet not clear whether he will assume power or not.
It also seems, since Evo has called for a new election early today, he was pressured to step down by all powers in Bolivia.
Once more, the spark of this mess was the OEA report that put the past election under suspicion.
The situation in Bolivia took a huge turn when:
1) OEA advisors to the UN said that the past election could not be 100% assured
2) The military decided to support a new election
3) Violence in many cities became suddenly wide spread
Evo decided to call a new election but it seems the pressure was too much for him and his team, and decided to resign. Uncertain at the moment how the country will be led during a transition.
I recall in a recent exchange with other SyrPers sharing my concerns about Evo’s 13 year presidency and the fact that he did not develop a sucessor to endure the many changes he brought to Bolivia. The vast majority of them were positive changes to the ordinary Bolivian.
It is sad to see this happening in Bolivia, and with Evo himself, who has been a landmark in the region. I am sure Evo will continue to be a strong political figure in Bolivia and he is young enough to run in future elections. Hopefully transition will be fair, and new elections in Bolivia will be conducted in a state of order and peace.”
I share your hope, Vexarb !
The hegemon strikes again. Watch how the mainstream presstitutes report this, particularly in the alleged ‘Liberal media’ like The Guardian, ABC, SBS, Channel 4. Read of course, Neoliberal rather than Liberal. Will they even use the word… coup?
Just had a look at ABC here in Australia, and they seem almost gleeful.
As does arch psychopath Mike Pompeo. What can you say? The evil empire chalks up another victory for ‘democracy’ and ‘freedom’.
The last 2 hours since I heard this news, have been feeling quite deflated. This crap just keeps going on and on and on.
The threat of a good example must be extinguished everywhere by these bastards. I was in a Central American Solidarity Group back in the 80s and 90s. My eyes were opened back then to the evil residing in Washington and Langley.
No matter which circus clown, or Wall Street shill, is occupying the White House at the time, the CIA and associated deep state forces are always hard at work in the background twenty-four hours a day – seven days a week – engaged in their never ending illegal criminal machinations while pursuing their endless war against the poor on behalf of Western oligarchy. The criminal cabal that is the West, lead by my own completely amoral and most odious of all Western governments here in the United States – strikes yet again. If anyone is expecting the so called “progressives” within the Democratic Party to speak out against this latest criminal coup, you will be sorely disappointed. Our global criminal enterprise is a completely “bi-partisan” undertaking. Only truly “progressive” alternative media will call this out for what it is.
I’m not religious Gary, but I pray that one day this evil empire will just go the same way as the Roman Empire.
Or that vast numbers of people wake from their digitalised stupor, and realise the horrors that surround them. I realise that’s incredibly wishful thinking.
Look at the Gilets Jaunes in France, the protests in Chile. People will only take so much pain and humiliation.
How many in the US are heavily indebted, working 2 or even 3 jobs, struggling to pay their utilities, the Dickensian levels of poverty and inequality, the number of people living in their cars or under a bridge, millions succumbing to addictions (to escape their pain) a whole list…
While the pyscho’s in Langley continue their high crimes against humanity and against leaders like Evo Morales.
I just checked Democratic Socialists Of America Facebook and twitter page. Nothing on Evo Morales on their FB page, but on Twitter, Ilhan Omar has come out against the coup in Bolivia, then stated her support for ‘free and fair’ elections.
Gezzah -as someone like you who was also part of the Central American solidarity movement – I at one point (long ago) thought that perhaps enough public education and public awakening to the horrors of U.S. counter-insurgency operations might finally make it more difficult for the war machine to continue business as usual decade after decade without public protest. I have come to the sad conclusion that only the disintegration of this insane empire will offer the world any reprieve.
That the bottom 50% of Americans share a total of 1.3% of the nation’s wealth, while homelessness and despair grows daily would suggest we are ripe for major social unrest – yet I see no sign this is on the horizon, the Occupy Wall Street movement feeling like ancient history. I am glad to hear that Omar has come out against that coup – thanks for sharing that. Every bit of white noise like that (or like Tulsi Gabbard consistently bringing up U.S. support for our jihadist proxies) at least confront Americans publicly with the possibility that some “other reality” exits beyond that created and packaged for them by corporate media.
The power of propaganda Gary – and the wholesale buying into the illusory promise of the ‘American dream’ along with 1001 distractions. We’re of the same conclusion regards the Empire.
Then vote for Tulsi or Bernie – they appear to be your only hope – as I see things here from London UK.
The U.S. regime is like a thief without conscience.
At the height of his arrogance and narcissism, he will
steal, plunder, rape, brutalize, terrorize, destroy and
murder with a vengeance and with impunity.
Bolivia might be the poisoned cookie in the kitchen of
the house the thief just plundered. And he just ate it.
Has there ever been a smoother Coup d’Etat than this?
As if a window was ‘left open’ to allow for the thieves to
get in.
If it is all too real, Evo Morales joins Queen Lili`uokalani
in the ranks of those historical icons of gubernatorial
integrity, that refused to resist the flow of the wanna-be
empire flood to avoid bloodshed.
The thief never read the I Ching, or Sun Tzu. If he did, he
also never understood a single one of the underlying
principles of existence.
You sounded like Eduardo Galeano just then N. I was trying to find William Blum’s lengthy list of all the countries the ‘Beacon On The Hill’ aka United States Govt (and its henchmen) has bombed, invaded, droned, blockaded, interfered with elections, staged coups, overthrown Govts, assasinations, on and on.
I think it was at the Third World Traveller website. The U.S regime ranks as the world’s biggest rogue terrorist state.
OK, I will throw an I Ching on this and relay the hexagrams – unless you beat me to it ! I know this might be simplistic but “light” overpowers “dark” in the final analysis – it is just heartbreaking that so many decent folk have to suffer the excesses of these perverted, narcissistic sociopaths. However, the laws of karmic retribution are strict and unbending – and the offenders will eventually pay a very heavy price – over several lifetimes. And when it happens, of which I have no doubt it will, they will be bleating “Why Me?”
I just did one for Bolivia:
53. Chien
“It is only possible to perfect every detail of advancement when progress is steady and patient.”
I keep up my hopes for the Streisand effect kicking in with full might.
It appears that the Western half of the planet has some festering brain tumor. It needs to be cut out liberally in order to save the entire organism.
From this side of the Rio de La Plata, the last word in South America has always been and always will be with the people. South America is not a Southern mirror version of the North. Even though the North always had these wet dreams of the ‘United’ exploited states of America stretching from Alaska to Antarctica – including the lazy but good for playing golf Carribean of course.
The torch bearers for Adolf are still going strong after 74 years. Quite a success story. Never ceasing or desisting to conquer the world for the good of all white mankind. Blessed crusaders, aren’t they?
They will only stop if either
a) Planet Apartheidia is announced
or
b) there is no more oxygen.
Washington has a long history of meddling in Bolivia.
They have supported separatism in the resource rich Santa Cruz region.
This is a stronghold of the opposition white comprador elite which is openly funded by the US, and expresses racist contempt for indigenous figures like Morales.
In many respects it is an action replay of what has been happening in Venezuela, Ecuador, and elsewhere.
Like our very own referendum, any election that produces the “wrong” result is automatically “rigged” and “illegitimate.”
The problem with all these coups is that the quisling opposition, like Gweedo in Venezuela and Moreno in Ecuador, are concerned only with lining their own pockets. They lack any widespread support, integrity or credibility, and as a result they do not last long. But it is surprising that a popular leader and strong character like Morales acquiesced in the coup.
Morales did not have much choice. The armed forces asked him to resign. (That’s an indication that he doesn’t have their support.) He resigned in the belief that his resignation would help save the people in his administration. Of course as we know from having observed the Kiev Maidan events in 2014, that a president’s resignation will not save the people who served that president, however faithfully or not.
I’m afraid that Morales did not have the advantages that Chavez had in Venezuela – a military background, for one thing – and as a result could not reform Bolivian society as much as he would have liked to do. At least Chavez was able to develop a network of militias in urban and rural communities that have stayed loyal to Nicolas Maduro and on which he relies, knowing that if it weren’t for their presence, he would not still be president in Venezuela.
The militias and other collective reform efforts that Chavez brought to Venezuela also brought unity to the people who supported him; a big contrast again with the situation in Bolivia, where indigenous peoples living in the Santa Cruz region, disadvantaged though they may be, don’t have much in common with (and may even dislike) the Aymara and Quechua speakers who support Morales.
In short, Bolivia as a sovereign state is more divided than Venezuela and Ecuador, and the divisions among the Bolivians can be and have been exploited by the country’s traitorous elite and their backers in Washington DC and Ottawa.
Wot? No kikes?
No. Just you.
I have found a Jewish connection (because Robbobbobin asked for one) along with plenty of Nazis and their collaborators.
The leader of the coup that deposed Evo Morales, Luis Fernando Camacho, has links with Croatian-Bolivian businessman Branko Marinkovic. Marinkovic is said to be linked to the Croatian Ustasha (probably through his parents who came to Bolivia in the 1950s); even an old Stratfor email published by Wikileaks in 2012 mentions as much.
In 2008, Bolivian police uncovered a plot to kill Evo Morales and to split Bolivia into two countries, and sent three assassins including their ringleader, Eduardo Rozsa-Flores, to meet their maker. Rozsa-Flores had commanded a paramilitary organisation, First International Platoon, made up of various pathetic sorts, some with ties to the Ustasha, in Croatia’s war for independence in the early 1990s. The plot had the blessing and the backing of Marinkovic.
The Jewish connection is that Rosza-Flores’ father had a Hungarian Jewish background.
Erm… I wasn’t in fact asking for a Jewish connection–I was actually throwing a Chad mark’s way. Your factual response seems to have kyboshed his own strangled reply.
Get used to it, these are all signs of the dying anglo-zionist/pax-amaericana empire. Western multinational coprorations along with western central banks (which are privately run) and not runned by the sovereign state have managed to transform western style governance that has been established since WW2 to their next phase of technocracy and corporatocracy.MODERN DAY FASCISMO.
This will be the norm throughout all the Antlantacist nations.
POST SCRIPTUM; It will be interesting to see what will happen in Brazil since Lulu has just been released from prison and how things will develop there. Further more what will happen after the new Argentinian head of state meets with Legarde the head of the IMF(International Mafia Federation)where he is to discuss the 54 billion dollar slave clause that Macri the shill had managed to get from them.
DOCIUS INFUNDEM;U still think we defeated fascism after WW2. Think again it just rebrands it self just like the takfiris in the Maghreb and the ME
It seems to me that the Americans were so committed to the Middle East Destruct/Reconstruct project that they took their eye of South America for a couple of decades, but now that they clearly have lost their way and Super Putin has out played them, they have turned their attention back to the south and their NGO/CIA operatives have been funnel money and plans to the stooges like Bolsinaro and Correa and it feels like exactly the same is happening in Bolivia.
One thing that is clear is that the USA targets any socialist regime no matter what the consequences are for the citizens, as long as the assets can be privatised and social support structures can be destroyed to keep people weak.
@surferdave
In the late 80’s papers coming out of Chattam house and the Brookings institute all wrote about how the Antlatacist can mantain there hegemony by destroying all the sovereign states east and south. Its ball by design . That was their intention from the beginning .
stooges like Correa
Rafael Correa is not a stooge. Presumably, you meant either Moreno or “Guido”.
Yes, Correa is the real deal – Moreno and Guido are the sock puppets
Look’s like our little troll has an itchy thumb yet again !
This is so so sad. The U.S. regime is certainly responsible for this right wing military coup. From what I’ve read so far, the main reason for the coup appears to be President Morales wanting to nationalize lithium.
“Grab the lithium! Grab the lithium!! Grab the big, beautiful lithium!! (And the gas/ silver/ tin while you’re at it!)”
@ Mark
Speaking of Lithium. The masters of the universe along with big pharma are thinking of putting it in our potable water system. Reminds me of the great fluoride scam they pulled off in the last century.
Happiness is here again…
Well, fluoride is like a chemical lobotomy, correct? Lithium is used as anti-depressant, but I remember that it was the Nazi’s favorite element to experiment with. Imagine a raging war and everybody is laughing their asses off about it. That’s what the owners want. In perpetuity. Fortunately for humanity, there is no such thing. Everyting is impermanent. No exception. However, since humankind can chose its actions, it does not have to go extinct with that stain on its history.
In “Hitchhiker’s Guide Through The Galaxy” style, a buoy will be placed for all interstellar traffic to avoid Earth. The buoy reads: “Danger! Infected With Fascism! Stay Clear! Do Not Make Contact! Report Suspicious Terestrial Activities To The Intergalactic Authorities!”
There are too many game pieces left. And I consider the Bolivia Coup to be having the greatest Streisand Effect of the Century. A Monty Python-style change from government to regime.
What fluoride scam would that be?
@George Cornell
R u 4 real?????
Research Fluoride and how it was introduced into the H2o potable water in circa the 20′ and 30’s
I replied this am but no sign of it. To repeat, I said I am an academic from an ancient uni known to you.
I am interested in the history and practice of public health interventions and have been for 45 years. I have been cited > 60k x for papers on this and related topics. I simply wanted to hear what you think was a scam.
@George Cornell
I am also an academic with a double masters. I have been a political .economics junkie since child hood. My grandfather was a free lance journo and one of the original organisers of the southern Italian wing of the Gramscian movement.
U being academic I have given u the heads up on referencing and discovery.
Njoy.
Post Scriptum: My neighbours dog knows the history of how fluoride was introduced into the potable water of the US and then the rest of the world.
Am perplexed by your ill humoured responses. You aren’t going to answer my question, are you.
I am actually lost for words and I am fully aware of what is happening politically in South America.