105

BREXIT: Is “Remain and Reform” even possible?

Frank Lee

The EU describes itself as being “based on the rule of law. This means that every action taken by the EU is based on treaties”[1].

The most important of these are the Maastricht Treaty, which transformed the European Economic Community into the EU and entrenched neoliberal regulations across the continent, and the Lisbon Treaty, the EU’s de facto constitution.

These treaties would have to be changed in order to effect any fundamental transformation of the EU.

How can EU treaties be changed? The Lisbon Treaty sets out the incredibly tortuous procedure:

  1. A proposal must emerge from either a national government, the European Parliament, or the European Commission.
  2. The Council then discusses the proposal and passes it to the Council of Ministers, comprised of national heads of government.
  3. The Council of Ministers must then consult the European Parliament, the Commission, and (if the proposal touches on monetary matters) the European Central Bank.
  4. The Council of Ministers must vote on the proposal, with a simple majority required for it to progress further.
  5. For any proposals suggesting fundamental change, the President of the European Council must then convene a “Convention”. This must be comprised of representatives from national parliaments, national governments, the European parliament, and the Commission, but the President has total discretion as to how many of each are included.
  6. The Convention discusses the proposal and develops, by consensus, a draft treaty text.
  7. An intergovernmental conference convenes to discuss the text.
  8. If the text is approved, it must be ratified by member-states in accordance with domestic law, e.g. through national parliaments or referenda.[2]


The barriers to any serious change of the EU treaties are obviously formidable; indeed, they are practically insurmountable.

One: To begin with, a majority of EU member-state governments (i.e. at least 15) must first agree to the potential change.

Therefore, for R&R to work in the way leftists suggest – for the EU to be reformed in a socialist direction – socialist governments would need to have been elected in 15 EU countries, and they would have had to develop a consensus on EU reform.

The likelihood of this occurring is obviously close to zero. Thanks in part to the EU treaties, even moderate social democratic parties – let alone real socialist parties – have been eviscerated across the continent, and there has been a widespread lurch to the right and towards nationalist populism.

Even if we ride the unicorn into a fantastical future where 15 socialist governments are simultaneously elected across the EU, at step five the Council president has the power to rig proceedings against meaningful change.

There is nothing to stop him or her stuffing the Convention with unelected bureaucrats from the Commission, or with the scarcely-elected Europhiles who dominate the European Parliament.

Furthermore, at step six, our imaginary socialist governments’ representatives will be further diluted by representatives of other EU governments that do not share their priorities, with whom they are supposed to reach “consensus”.

Any serious reform programme – let alone radical objectives like turning the EU into an instrument of socialism – would be considerably diluted, if any consensus could be reached at all.

At step seven, the non-socialist EU member-states would enjoy a second opportunity to veto any change, while at step eight, so would the parliaments or populations of most EU countries, depending on their domestic rules on treaty ratification.

The Irish constitution, for example, requires treaties on constitutional matters to be put to a referendum; accordingly, a country of 4.8 million people could veto changes desired by up to 468.7 million people (the combined population of the 15 largest EU member-states).

R&R is therefore practically impossible.

NOTES:-

  • [1] Ideology and Utopia – Karl Mannheim – p.140/141
  • [2] The Looting of Greece – Jack Rasmus – pp.116/117

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Doctortrinate
Doctortrinate

this parasites fed well from the peoples fruit – but as it’s branches are now heavier with fattened cats than profitable harvest, so they’ll weaken the tree, poison the soil and place their men of straw around it to plant the seeds of fear, confusion and division – so again the people flock to them, sick birds, desperate for a nest – and hoping the wind blows harder on their neighbours side….than theirs.

Wilmers31
Wilmers31

Insanity is trying the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result.

Corbyn could do a lot of good but reforming the EU is the wrong goal. It has been tried more than once before, forget it.

Nick
Nick

This is the reality of the EU.

I am really sad to see Corbyn join the ranks of the Remainers, and talking about “transforming” the EU though he must know perfectly well that that is a fantasy.

Apart from Brexit, I would far rather see Corbyn in 10 Downing Street than Boris. But Brexit is more important than anything else. If the only way to get Brexit is to keep Boris in number 10, then so be it.

Heathen Tinker
Heathen Tinker

Thanks for the clarification.Byzantine doesn’t even begin to define this beurocratic tyranny. Machiavelli would get a migraine trying to devize a way of effecting change in the stacked deck of EU legislation.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker

Sorry to say Frank, but some of your articles, including this one, is a pile of sh1t stirring.

We have 3 electoral choices:
– Boris the Neoliberal, TTIP, liar extrodinaire,
– Swinson, I rub my “funny” at the ecstatic thought of Remaining in the EU,
– Corbyn, the I’m Not Sure About the EU, but At Least I want to Help the Average Person socialist.

You can try and destroy Corbyn as much as you want, but at the end of the day, he’s by far the best choice of the bunch.

Methinks that your continuous anti-Corbyn stance risks placing you amongst the company of Nazty Kippers?

Estaugh
Estaugh

Three ships, HMS UK, SS USA, and CSS EU, all listing badly and no life-boats. The Captains are quarrelling and the crews are mutineering. Have you built your raft yet?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

“The barriers to any serious change of the EU treaties are obviously formidable; indeed, they are practically insurmountable.”

So how did that happen?
‘January 2016

The Anti Tax Avoidance Package is part of the Commission’s ambitious agenda for fairer, simpler and more effective corporate taxation in the EU.

The Package contains concrete measures to prevent aggressive tax planning, boost tax transparency and create a level playing field for all businesses in the EU.

It will help Member States take strong and coordinated action against tax avoidance and ensure that companies pay tax wherever they make their profits in the EU.’

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/company-tax/anti-tax-avoidance-package_en

What was UK’s position on that?

‘Cameron stepped in to shield offshore trusts from EU tax crackdown in 2013:

“David Cameron intervened personally to prevent offshore trusts from being dragged into an EU-wide crackdown on tax avoidance, it has emerged. In a 2013 letter to the then president of the European council, Herman Van Rompuy, the prime minister said that trusts should not automatically be subject to the same transparency requirements as companies… But when some in the EU wanted to extend the same principle to trust structures, Cameron said in his letter to Van Rompuy that tax authorities were already “gaining access to more information than ever before on trusts, especially offshore trusts,” through information-exchange agreements with tax authorities in different countries.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/07/david-cameron-offshore-trusts-eu-tax-crackdown-2013

2015 – the government again tried to stop the EU moving forward as did the combined Tory, Ukip and DUP MEP’s.

‘The UK has had legislation on the marketing of tax schemes since 2004, but these new rules would force all EU Member states to share details of all tax schemes every three months to be displayed in a central directory of avoidance schemes. These plans would tighten up restrictions on UK based intermediaries that take part in off-shoring and tax avoidance, of which Britain is a global leader alongside the US and Hong Kong.

It is possible that Britain would not be subject to these rules if a hard Brexit’ is pushed through Parliament, but were we to remain as a part of the single market, we would be subject to these laws and would be forced to be more transparent in our harboring of shell companies and intermediaries. Is this part of the reason that right-wingers are pushing for a hard Brexit and a categoric severance from Europe? Or is it simply a part of the vast web of regulation that they wish to free Britain from?’

https://medium.com/the-jist/was-eu-tax-evasion-regulation-the-reason-for-the-brexit-referendum-980ba88a8077

However, Brussels refused to comply and on 28 January 2016, the European Commission produced its first draft of The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive and three weeks later, David Cameron told a press conference in front of 10 Downing Street that the UK will vote on whether to remain in the EU on Thursday 23 June.

‘Within minutes, Theresa Villiers, Priti Patel, Michael Gove, Iain Duncan Smith, Chris Grayling, and John Whittingdale appeared at the Vote Leave headquarters, holding a banner with a slogan “Let’s take back control”. Speaking on behalf of six Tory Brexiteers, Grayling explained that they want to restore the sovereignty of the British nation.’

https://www.change.org/p/the-uk-government-tax-dodging-the-reason-for-the-eu-referendum

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_17_1433

The EU is implementing plans for supervision!

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2019/html/ecb.sp190117.en.html

Need I carry on? Change is what the EU has been about since it started.

lundiel
lundiel

Sorry, this has nothing to do with reforming the Maastricht treaty, monitory policy or the ECB which is the crux of the article. Of course the Tories don’t want to reform/regulate tax evasion. The fact is, nor does the EU because we (the city of London) deal with the financial affairs of most European businesses, their pension funds, financial insurance, hedge funds and financial instruments. The EU is just out to make political capital at the expense of the city. If the financial centre moved to Frankfurt (which it can’t, in or out European finance is too interwoven in the city to comprehend moving it), Europe would quietly forget tax avoidance

3 out of 10, must do better.

lundiel
lundiel

I should also have said, much of the European tax avoidance palava is about American companies using Luxumbourg etc, they will quite happily keep using British protectorates when we are half in and half out.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Did you actually bother reading the links and the further links they contain?

I gave a very irm example of a single issue that has taken many years to progress often against veto’s by the UK and attempts at spiking at all stages – which has resulted in a ‘treaty’ that will apply equally to all member states.

The moment that became unstoppable was the moment the hard brexit plan was put in place.

Look at it chronologically and understand that it was on the cards for a longtime and the brexit was thus setup over a long period. Austerity was used to wind up the public and membership of the EU was the scapegoat.

That alone did not deliver the brexit result but it provided the fire and smoke that allowed the referendum to be spiked by ballot stuffing.

The result was in the bag before the EU refused to yield to the City.

Finally, the City is not as you keep trying to imply the commercial city of London that plies retail products and seevices across the world. They can carry on easily by setting up offices within the EU as they did straighy away in Dublin and Frankfurt.

The CITY is the ancieny city – that the plutocrats of the pathocracy -run , and is never are allowed to been seen except by these who are given a ‘seat at the table’.

Do you not think it coincidental that Frank has splurged another article within hours of my posting?

Really, Lundiel, we covered a lot of ground a few months ago, which I don’t really want to repeat in response to continued efforts at the ‘hard brexit’ by some very unsavoury groups that are no more than versions of controlled opposition – which I certainly don’t think you are.

I’ll leave it at that with you.

All best.

lundiel
lundiel

Links to opinion pieces by pro-remain groups/organs don’t mean jack shit. No I didn’t read them. The reason for the referendum had nothing to do with tax avoidance. Cameron, under huge pressure from UKIP took a chance he thought he’d win.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Lol. Nice. A bit like Nelson not seeing any ships through his blind eye. Maybe I reached my conclusion on you to hastily.

You can lead a horse to water…

mark
mark

The EU is no more capable of reforming itself than the old USSR or the Spanish Empire of the 17th century.

M droy
M droy

bloody stupid article – take a quote from Corbyn from before the referendum over 3 years ago, and argue against it. When Corbyn has accepted Brexit anyway.
Just what is the point of it?

(And Guardian type dishonesty in putting up a quote over 3 years old and implying it is current)

bob
bob

Except, in reality, Corbyn has not accepted brexit – whether by default or pressure from his party – he has motioned long enough and now is suggesting a second referendum with remain on the ballot. Corbyn’s history defies his current stance – so how does anybody know what his position will be come a successful election? Sorry, but he’s had long enough to clarify the position of himself and the party he leads – which turns more remain with every passing day. Hopefully, this labour party will be obliterated at this election thereby sowing the seeds for a new working class, pro leave EU party that truly represents its electorate

bevin
bevin

I just know that there are people in La Paz today who are saying, in a similar vein; “And good riddance to Evo too. Let us just hope that when MAS is obliterated the seeds will have been sown…etc ad nauseam.”

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig

Morales was a nationalist. Is Corbyn?

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

Added to this are all the “Operational Research” objections to the possibilities of basic changes from within in even relatively dynamic established social and political systems advanced by Stafford Beer, both technically in numerous papers and popularly in books like the eminently readable Platform for Change (John Wiley, London and New York, 1975), including an account of his involvement with Allende’s Pinochet-terminated Cybersyn project in Chile, aimed at facilitating over all planning of the Chilean economy while enhancing the democratic role of its productive units (denoted in revolutionary Russia as “Soviets”) and avoiding the express, innate, degenerate fascism of Leninist-Stalinism, making scientifically explicit part of what Tony Benn intuitively understood when he campaigned against remaining in the EC/Common Market at the time of the 1975 referendum, warning that as time passed it would become increasingly difficult or even impossible to leave without severe political, economic and social disruption.

It is to the eternal damnation of the always-dictatorial structure of the irremediably bourgeois, always established-capital-serving Labour Party that not one of its self-serving theorists and strategists have come to Corbyn’s aid in explaining his sound, Benn-derived, but/so basically intuitive, antipathy to the EU and its horrendous, underlying acquis-perpetuated neocon facsimile of popular accountability with anything even approaching Mr Lee’s straighforward, easily-understood and absolutely accurate description of the entire politico-corporate (a.k.a. classical ‘fascist’) EU scamsham.

Remain and Reform? Utter, complete, contemptuous thus contemptible Bullshit.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker

Is remain and reform even possible?

Absolutely yes, and especially if / when the EU bloc might disconnect from NATO.

A small example of what can be achieved by the EU against the neoliberal US is that the EU is already massively fining the likes of Google and similar tech companies for abusing their power.

Similarly, in terms of the protection of our personal data, the EU GDPR is going to hammer those countries / companies that abuse us. Lots of other examples of consumer protections, workers and human rights, etc which will simply disappear post Brexit as the Nazty Party try and stamp their jackboots in our faces.

There is a strong left of centre alliance in the EU Parliament. We can be much stronger together, and we can resist both the neoliberal, and hard-left revolutionaries and say “no” to their divide and conquer unholy alliance!

mark
mark

The EU has never been more than a tool of globalist corporate interests.
It is like the Bourbons who learnt nothing and forgot nothing.
They are now doubling down and going for broke with an EU Superstate, centralised taxation and budgets, its own army and foreign policy.
Nobody wants this apart from a tiny self serving elite.
Ask people in Greece/ Italy/ Cyprus/ Spain/ Ireland/ the Baltics how the EU has worked for them.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker

Mark, the problem with those countries is not the EU itself, it’s specifically the Euro currency. The EU members retaining their own currencies are doing rather well. Greece had a chance to revert to the Drachma but most people seemed to be against doing that.

Northern
Northern

61% of Greeks voted to not accept the Troika’s bailout terms (ergo a currency default and return to the Drachma) but were over ruled by the European Commission, who deemed the ballot illegal. Got any more EU reform jokes we haven’t heard?

Berlin beerman
Berlin beerman

Well if its impossible then what?

If the EU had serious bullocks they should have thrown the UK out rather than sit around and wait for what has always been on the hidden agenda – to force a second referendum (hence remain because its now the peoples’ will ) with out making it look like you want one – this has been Mrs.Mays’ agenda, its Mr. Johnsons’ agenda and in a way its Mr. Corbyns’ as well unless he can win an election in the process. All three know this was the only real way out of the mess yet each one wanted to rule at the same time it happened.

Its the only thing these three ever really agreed on – its just the way each needs to appear to get there that’s different.

The fact is that Ireland and Scotland is what really matters to the EU – the rest is waste. The break up of GB would suffice nicely. Its what the EU really want.

lundiel
lundiel

You’ve got to be joking. Like Germany wants another two benefit claimants hanging around its neck when its already got plenty of defaulters.

mark
mark

If the EU wants the Jocks and the Paddies, then Xmas has come early. Give them Wales as well as a 3 for 2. And the free wine glasses.

lundiel
lundiel

Diplomacy not a strong point eh Mark.

Berlin beerman
Berlin beerman

Thought I would test the true water temperature. Interesting.

BigB
BigB

The economy is an energy economy – and excess or surplus energy economy to be more precise. All the time we treat it as a monetary and fiscal economy: it is GIGO. Which is why we have entered the pantomime personality politics of actual hallucinatory fantasy.

Nafeez Ahmed wrote that Brexit was a ‘slowburn’ energy decline. And Tad Patzek that the Ye;;ow Vest protests are directly correlated to a decline in the naptha distillate – from which we refine diesel. A decline that was set to increase when shipping switches from bunker fuel to diesel in January. So that is a partly testable prediction.

What is not testable – but actualised hallucinatory fantasy – is that economies can grow forever. Which has entered the actual Spectacular scenario that they can: because a carreer political puppet says they can. Anyone who enters into this imaginary bargain has no one else to blame for their foolishness.

Keen et al have shown that socio-politico-economics evolved before thermodynamics and never accommodated for them. Accomodated for they reveal a totally different economy. One on which Brexit; leave or remain; deal or no deal; have very little impact on. Except they leave us massively exposed to correction: as Tim Morgan’s two latest pieces make crystal clear:

https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/

That correction hass been in progress for twelve years. It reached semi-critical in September. Who knows how it will play out. The thing to note is that the central bankers are nearly out of monetary tools to keep staving it off. If and when it occurs: they have no policies to deal with it.

This Transnational Money Multiplier Sequence (TMSS) is centered on the City. Collapse of our main business model – financial services (75% of UK economy – ONS) – leaves is spectacularly exposed as an island within globalisation. Which makes os spectacularly exposed to social unrest. Especially with everyone in negative equity with no savings. Eating chlorinated chicken from a foodbank. And having to pay at the point of service for the NHS.

It might not come to that. But it is more plausible than what passes for political imaginary fantasy. There is the problem: we are a deeply capitalist: committed to capitalism. I thought everyone knew the GND is a green finance capitalist agenda fronted by Labour? There will hardly be any point raising it again. We have fantasy political extend and pretend agenda based on fantasy socio-economics that are demonstrably false. Which leaves us fantastically exposed to correction no matter what policy is implemented by whom. And the further we get from reality: the more defensive we become about the fantasy narrative constructions that make GIGO seem real. We are now in actual fantasy and denial.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee

”What is not testable – but actualised hallucinatory fantasy – is that economies can grow forever.”

Yep, debt financing is simply bringing down growth today from growth tomorrow. Which poses the question of what happens when we get to the increasingly less distant and impoverished tomorrow?

It all follows the logic of the classical Ponzi scheme. Get yourself into debt, borrow some more debt of greater magnitude, to get yourself further into debt in order to pay existing debt, ultimate result = exponential rise of debt levels, until bingo, the pyramid scheme collapses under the weight of its own debt-load.

This is the theoretical economics and practices of the IMF, Central Banks, Investment banks, commercial banks,WTO, WB, OECD, BIS, Journals, like the Economist, Financial Times, Wall Street Journal, as well as economic academic in universities who spread this tripe. These fanatics are utterly committed to their own BS and are bringing us the edge of the abyss.

Am I alone in thinking that we have brought down the wrath of god for entrusting our fate to a totally corrupt and self-serving oligarchy which passes for leadership. In the words of de Maistre : ‘Every country has the government it deserves.’

BigB
BigB

No you are not: it is an opinion I share. Debts alone destroy civilisations as Keen and Hudson point. Debts rise exponentially and economies expand along an S-Curve distribution making debts unrepayable – without a clean slate jubilee year. They knew this 5,000 years ago: but we pretend we can extend credit/debt ratios infinitely. We cannot.

Tainter showed that complexity and inequality of distribution destroys civilisations. The ‘energy complexity spiral’ creates a ‘net energy cliff’ when the input/supply of an neo-agrarian economy is outstripped by the output/demand from the wealthy superstructure. When the net energy cliff is reached – there is neither enough energy to maintain failing overcomplex systems of inequality; nor is there any surplus energy to transition to a simplified system. Civilisations rise, prosper, and decline due to net energy throughput.

I only mention this due to all this election pseudo-euphoria about the next phase of our expansion comes as we are actually declining to the cusp of the net energy cliff. Which is just another way of expressing Tim Morgan’s own SEEDS2 database. The transition we make to growth or sustainability (the two are mutually exclusive and should never be mixed) will determine whether we can transition through the decline in net energy to a survivable option.

Which is so good to see the pseudo-glee surrounding the ceding of the responsibility of overseeing this transition to green finance capitalism: so they can turn species into derivative commodities and rent privatised nature back to us environmental services. Having placed a social taboo among ourselves on even discussing the ramifications. There are no need to discuss the ramifications: they are unconscionable. Which makes the election of the Corbyn Vichy government of occupation unconscionable.

I thought everyone knew that the LaboutGND was a green finance capitalism front? Ouch! Let’s not mention that ever again! The biggest humanitarian and ecological disaster to befall humanity is about to be given legal rational status through onconscious blind-obedience without ever being assessed or even mentioned. I cannot even express how mortally terrifying this is to me …without being very, very, rude about the ecological illiteracy of the electorate. It is not that they do not know: it is that they do not even want to know.

And so the GND – or ‘green industrial revolution’ – will get in. And the “wrath of God” – the corporate Mammon of green finance capitalism – will be unleashed on what’s left of the biosphere. I cannot tell you the pain this is causing me.

And as both parties have a version of it: the financialised ‘green industrial revolution’ will get in. And no one can think the can vote Green for and alternative: Lucas and Pettifor invented the fucking thing. Lucas was at the meeting with Zack Exley: but there is no point ever mentioning that again Obedience is the raison d’etat?

Steve Hayes

The thing I find amazing of the people who push the Remain and Reform mantra is that when asked what reforms they are seeking, they invariably either change the subject or say something devoid of any actual content. Remain and Reformers are in reality nothing but Remainers.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Sheesh – Will you guys never give it up?

Your HARD BREXIT is dead, dead, dead.

You can try as much as you like to raise it like a zombie or Frankensteins monster from bits and pieces – but it will never be your Singapore on Thames dream.

Week 2 of election – this article could have been written on any number of actual issues current this week – such as:

1. The almost Grenfell like disaster where we may have lost many students in a tragedy that would have stopped the election campaigning just like the tertorist murders did in 2017. Privately purpose built substandard student accommodation – not EU imposed.

2. The disastrous flooding and continued dangers that are a direct result of ignoring environmental experts and degrading the civil servants in the government over the decades to enable private companies to build houses with inpunity; while letting private farmers destroy flood limiting small fields, hedgerows, copses, making future floods more likely with every insane new unregulated building – none of it imposed by the EU.

3. The utter bias in the msm against Labour, shown by the bbc news team. The handholding and protection offered to their buffoon. Including the childish attempts on the other channels and radio networks like LBC – where deprived of the Fartage show, the rest of the drone shock jokes lumber under fair coverage having to allow the non ERG only viewpoints to be aired – the contempt that oozes out of the poor dj’s as they can’t help themselves. Nigel still gets plenty of coverage – funny though how they have belatedly decided Trump’s endorsements is like being kissed by a sloth!
In today’s Obsessive Groan – Ridiculous Rawnsley, removes his useless mask of impartiality and rides like a fury for the Tories;
meanwhile they publish made up polls (funded by private indviduals!) of 500 hand picked, whoevers, that show the libdems smashing Labour in London.

None of it to do with the EU failing to regulate fair media.

4. Any of the ongoing development in the conspiracy to impeach & conspiracy to coup in the US.
&
5. The actual on the ground reports from Syria, Iraq, Iran … the rest of the world that has fuck all to do with the EU.

I could go on but this sermon is already long and I’m sure Admin, the author, and venerable commentator fans such as Lundiel want to lay in

And keep insisting that the election is still only about brexit.

That is why the tories were given bobo – so that he would keep it about brexit.

That is why the media is upset that Labour have been talking about popular policies before, the manifesto launch (avoiding the suscpicious leaks from last time!) and are scrambling to divert attention – the jolly handy Andy interview? The hiding of Bobo.

Yeah kiddos and old folk (lundy) and fake social democrats and fraudsters i’ll leave you with the words of JC.

““the debate is over”

Amen.

lundiel
lundiel

Who’s Lundy?
No one here thinks hard Brexit is remotely possible. Most think we can never leave.
The election has already been won by Johnson, the only question is by how much, enter 1,2 and 3 of your points. With regard to 4, there will be no impeachment, it’s all bollocks just like Russian interference on behalf of the Tories.
No 5 has plenty to do with the EU and NATO.
You still haven’t explained how we will reform and remain given the insurmountable difficulties listed above, the damage any reform would do to the German economy, the untenable long-term prospects of the Euro, the unpayable debts of some members, the skewed economic “one size fits all” approach, the emptying of Eastern European states, the rush to federalism as the answer, the European army we have already committed to, how NATO membership is a condition of joining the club, etc, etc etc.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

That is an affectionate shortening🤗

Busy now – maybe i’ll reply later or put up new post.

Have a fine evening.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

…maybe i’ll reply later or put up new post.

Reply later. It would be preferable to having to put up with a new post.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Nah – new post it is

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood

The thing is, Remainers don’t actually want to reform the EU. The majority don’t really understand how it works, and those who do are probably mostly from the sort of elites who benefit quite nicely from it being a neoliberal capitalist club.

Anyway, The Full Brexit site has some good articles on this subject, e.g.

https://www.thefullbrexit.com/remain-and-reform

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Sorry to keep you waiting it was a late but fun evening.

A new post with lots of links – awaiting moderation.

Enjoy

Dave Lawton
Dave Lawton

Now the tragedy of the Grenfell Tower fire and if people really bother to investigate you will find that it was a top EU Bilderberger Klaus Kleinfeld who was CEO of Arconic and knew that the cladding was inflammable but went on to sell it.He is now being sued by shareholders because of loss of profits because of the fire.It seems he has now buggered off to Saudi Arabia.He has now given himself the title of Dr Klaus Kleinfeld and is along with Tony Blair advising on how to enhance the economic, technological and financial development of Saudi Arabia..Well the EU breeds these kind of people I say no thanks.We just need to deal with our crooks which we can. But we have no chance to get rid of the ones that run the EU. Previously he was also CEO of Siemens and was sacked because he was involved in a bribery scandal.
“I think you need to look to the EU as I have mentioned before.Article 24 of the directive was cemented into UK law in April 2014 and a Government report says “bringing as many residential and commercial buildings as possible up to a high level of energy performance is a priority for the UK Government”.

Cladding is often used to improve energy efficiency and it is thought there could be up to 30,000 buildings in the UK fitted with similar cladding to that used on Grenfell Tower.”
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/grenfell-materials-would-never-have-been-allowed-under-old-rules-30-07-2018/

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi

Is remain and reform even possible?
No.
Leaving under article 50 has proven to be impossible. Whilst the possibility of reform exists under some treaty or other (for which we never voted), you can be sure it has been designed in such a way as to be impossible to achieve.
The only time “reform” happens is behind closed doors during some Faustian conference between big business and bureaucrats.
‘Remain and reform’ is merely Remainiac snake oil design to gloss over the fact that still, after nearly four years, they have not managed to come up with a single positive argument for staying in the EU.

Nick
Nick

Remainiac snake oil design to gloss over the fact that still, after nearly four years, they have not managed to come up with a single positive argument for staying in the EU.

That’s unfair, the sort of comment that Remainers make about Brexiters. It means they haven’t bothered to read the arguments for Brexit. Don’t descend to their level.

The arguments for Remain are weak: some highly questionable estimates by economists (most of whom have never made a correct prediction in their careers), some arguments about challenging the stranglehold which the USA has on the world financial system (it’ll be more effectively challenged by China eventually). Set against these misty dreams, the case for restoring democracy to our country is overwhelming. But even weak arguments are arguments, don’t say there aren’t any.

lundiel
lundiel

The comments in this thread should by rights be argued against by our remain supporting fans like dungroaning. Where are they? I want them to explain how we will reform the EU and how they think it will stay together. Answers please.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Lol – I’ll be with you shortly – don’t panic. Trying to get sunday dinner domestics sorted first.

lundiel
lundiel

😄

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

Big, fat, bourgeois middle-class grub-up, huh?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Champagne socialist actually if you please.

Though ale is my poison. I’m a bit imbibed now and not going to try writing any more. Till after some supper. Standby.

lundiel
lundiel

Oh go on, another couple of pints and you’ll understand everything.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Still awaiting moderation…

lundiel
lundiel

Who’s been a naughty boy then. 😌

Dungroanin
Dungroanin

Approved!

Trouble with sticking to facts – they come with links.

Enjoy.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood

If you need help in knocking the skin off the rice pudding, I’m sure some strapping Brexiter can come and give you a hand. 😉

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

Trying to get sunday dinner domestics sorted first.

How many domestics? Cook? Plus Assistant Cook? Plus Scullery Maid? Plus ???

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig

Thanks in part to the EU treaties, even moderate social democratic parties – let alone real socialist parties – have been eviscerated across the continent, and there has been a widespread lurch to the right and towards nationalist populism.

In which case the disease is the cure. These nationalist parties/movements are your ticket–at the moment your only ticket–out of the EU, after which you will then have to proceed to step two: to struggle for control of your newly independent, newly sovereign national government. But to continue to vote for controlled-opposition ‘socialist’ parties while remaining inside the neo-liberal EU is just national suicide.

bob
bob

Indeed!

Cameron tried this stunt here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-best-of-both-worlds-the-united-kingdoms-special-status-in-a-reformed-european-union

He failed. Hence the Referendum of 2016 and the Uk is still not out

Yarkob
Yarkob

if meaningful reform were truly possible in the EU, does one not think we’d have seen even a crack in the door of the project? a tiny bit of reform in the decades since it morphed from what we joined to what it’s become?

no. the traffic has all been one way. in this instance, the past is very much a guarantee of future performance.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin

The word you are looking for is “acquis”.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig

And Remainers think America’s Electoral College is undemocratic and needlessly complicated!