68

“But surely you don’t want Jones back?”

Frank Lee

Such was the response to any of those who questioned what was happening to the animal revolution which had expropriated the farmer (Jones) and set up the animal republic with its own green flag complete with the design symbols of hoof and horn.

As with most revolutions, however, this one could not deliver on its promises; after the initial euphoria of Jones’ overthrow, the charismatic stage of the animal insurrection became transformed into an inevitable period of consolidation and legal-rational authority, with the pigs, who were the new rulers, now firmly in control. This is to be expected since,

…most importantly of all, emotionalist revolution is followed by traditionalist routine …The followers of the warrior of faith, once they have achieved tend to generate with particular ease into a thoroughly commonplace class of office holders.” [1]

This short novella of Orwell’s was taken as a skit on the Russian Revolution but was applicable to all revolutions. Apparently, revolutions promise everything but often fail to deliver anything – Cf Ukraine after the 2014 Maidan.

Such radical upheavals are generally followed by a partial or even total restoration. Such was the case with the transformation of Cromwell to Charles II, Trotsky to Stalin, Danton to Talleyrand, Mao Zedong to Chou en Lai.

Strange to say that in the contemporary UK the ancien regime is not being challenged by a radical force from below, although many like to imagine this – but is a struggle between two contending establishment forces. HM’s Government and HM’s loyal opposition. It has always been thus, and this petrified political structure has never been seriously challenged apart perhaps from the general strike in 1926 and, more remotely, the miners’ strike in 1984.

I would contend that the Conservative and Labour parties and their media backers are essentially class-based with the working classes pretty much excluded – particularly from the Labour party. In this respect there are comparisons to be made with the US Democrats and Republicans.

These Ex-reformist parties in the anglosphere are now, having been cleansed of any residual idealism (although necessarily engaged in rhetorical playing to the gallery) have been tamed and now provide the natural political environment of the urban petit-bourgeois who espouse the prescriptions of post-modernist identity politics, neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism.

In the UK the Conservative party has always been associated with the rentier, financial classes both rural and urban, as well as in addition to business interests and the military/security complex.

The contemporary Labour party is an inner-city cosmopolitan class alliance composed in the main of professionals in the media, high-tech industry, education, health and the legal and state bureaucracy at various levels, mainly based in the big urban conurbations, particularly London and the South East.

This stratum is fanatically pro-EU and not particularly fussy about the methods whereby their love-object is protected and realised. The class-hatred of the ‘other’ leave voters is barely concealed and often overt.

It should be understood that the middle-class is the key grouping in the political structures of contemporary society. Often referred to as the intelligentsia (or what passes for one) this particular formation has occupied a pivotal position in the social class hierarchies.

The haute bourgeois and working-class both have a fixed relationship to the economy, and this is exactly what the middle-class lacks. Thus.

There are two courses of action which the unattached intellectuals have actually taken as ways out of the middle-of-the-road position: first, what amounts to a largely voluntary affiliation with one or the other of the various antagonistic classes; secondly, scrutiny of their own social moorings and the quest for the fulfilment of their mission as the predestined advocate of the intellectual interests as a whole…

…The ability to attach themselves to classes to which they originally did not belong was possible for the intellectuals because they could adapt themselves to any viewpoint and because they and they alone were in a position to choose their class affiliation, whilst those who were immediately bound by class affiliations were only in rare exceptions able to transcend their class outlooks. [2]

Suffice it to say that the middle-class has moved en masse in what amounts to a reactionary accommodation with the monied rentier interests. In what the American social theorist, Christopher Lasch, had once called the ‘Revolt of the Elites’. This being a repudiation of the post-war settlement in effect from the mid-40s to the mid-70s.

Socialism appears to have vanished entirely from their intellectual/ideological landscape being regarded as hopelessly fuddy-duddy and passé in the contemporary political and social dispensation.

This movement has been manifest since the end of the cold war – circa 1990 – and what amounts to an abject surrender of the centre-left of Clinton and Blair to the most reactionary political forces now in control of the deep-state, military and security complex and Transnational Corporations.

As for the losers in this brave new world, those who live in the unfashionable venues of the midlands and north of England and the Rust-belt in the US, well they can simply stew in their own juice. Hey, – in the words of Freddie Mercury ‘no time for losers’ – in this era.

Party manifestos are yet to make an appearance, but since they are never broadly read and bear no relation to what the main parties propose in detail and are able to carry out in terms of their implementation, they can be safely ignored.

As far as the Tories are concerned the details of the UK ‘withdrawal’ from the EU are still to be worked out. But short term we can expect nothing other than more of the same, i.e, fudge, and a great deal of Corbyn bashing.

The Labour party leadership has mooted some of its policy proposals regarding anti-austerity policies, abolition of student tuition fees, modest nationalisation of some of the privatised industries. Laudable enough, but … firstly student tuition fees.

If my memory serves me well wasn’t this what Nicholas Clegg of the Liberal Democrats promised in the run-up to the 2010 election only to revoke this promise in 2012. Making promises you have no ability or intention to keep is not a long-term or manageable policy.

As far as Labour’s other untested policies the question arises will they pass muster in a neoliberal environment such as the EU? This seems somewhat problematic. For a start, social-democracy is in a situation wherein Europe it has virtually disappeared, or is disappearing, seems lost on Labour who seem to think they are going to buck this trend?

There have been enough failures to demonstrate the collapse of the social democratic ascendency in Germany and France, Spain and Greece, which shows no sign of recovery. As one critic has pointed out.

As Tsipras and Syriza had made it abundantly clear the party’s intent was not to exit the Eurozone or the euro regime. They … and the majority of Greek people consistently indicated in polls that they did not want to leave the Eurozone either. They like Syriza wanted to end the austerity but stay in Europe and keep the Euro. Neither understood that the root of the austerity lay in the neoliberal euro regime which they wanted to keep.” [3]

This is more or less the situation which Labour will face if it joins the EU. However, Labour has been outflanked by history in the sense that

…Tsipras and the Greek electorate wanted to return to a social-democratic Europe that was already history, buried by a neo-liberal transformation throughout Europe in preceding decades, and especially since 1999. A Europe fundamentally incompatible with social-democratic programmes and policies.

As neoliberal forces, led by financial elites throughout the region, were rolling back social-democracy and social democratic parties everywhere, Syriza was proposing a resurrection and unification of social democratic institutions – economic and political – and a return to social-democratic programmes.” [4]

As for the Remain and Reform option, this is an oxymoron and shown to be such. This would require what would be tantamount to a euro-wide revolution, which seems unlikely. The social-democratic dispensation which Labour’s supporters claim they want can only be achieved firstly at national level. But Labour doggedly denies this as if belief can override objective reality.

At this point a few words regarding Corbyn’s newfound popularity among Labour’s rank and file with which I find myself at odds.

Personally, I have found Corbyn’s performance both weak and politically malleable.

Firstly, comes the capitulation to the Remainer berserkers, in his own party, and to the extent that Labour is now regarded as the remainer party, and this after a political career of Euroscepticism; then came the abject and unwarranted apologies to Zionist intimidation and the ‘anti-semitic’ smear campaign.

This to the extent that he allowed the IHRA definition of anti-semitism to become Labour party policy. He doesn’t strike me as a man of principle but a man of political expediency who will cave when forced into a corner.

It doesn’t give me any pleasure to say this, but this is how things stand and they cannot be simply wished away in an atmosphere of pre-election euphoria.

Remain and Reform (R&R) enthusiasts have mocked Brexiteers in the UK government for apparently failing to come up with a viable Brexit in the two-and-a-half years since the referendum, yet none of them have presented any plan – viable or otherwise – for reforming the EU.

Many have written lengthy, apparently learned articles about the follies of Brexit, but curiously they never quite get around to telling readers exactly how the EU can be changed, if it can be changed at all. This is not due to a failure of imagination. It is because the EU cannot be reformed along socialist lines. Indeed, it is actually very hard to change the EU at all, if not actually impossible. See below.[5]

Like it or not, “Politics is made with the head, not with other parts of the body or mind …and there are ultimately two sorts of mortal sin in the political world: lack of realism and lack of responsibility.”[6]

Thus, you must choose between EU; the Maastricht Criteria; the Stability and Growth Pact; the Lisbon Treaty; the ECB; the European Commission; the Council of Ministers, and so on and so forth. Or you can have a sovereign state which chooses its own political, social and economic institutions, for better or worse you can’t have both and there is no use pretending you can.

Of course, for those on whom the EU structures bestows its considerable status and largesse everything is fine, the greatest political construction since sliced bread. This rather begs the question of why so many citizens in this quasi-utopia have rather a different view.

The ‘revolution’ is seemingly failing to live up to its hype for the many and this much is becoming self-evident throughout the European continent.

Back at Animal Farm, Squealer the chief propaganda pig of the new dispensation berates the animals for making negative comparisons between their present situation and the time when the were under the tutelage of Jones the farmer.

This was a betrayal of the principles of animalism.

‘Come, come comrade animals, you wouldn’t want Jones back would you.’

This was enough to stifle any dissent in the animal ranks. And just to make sure the lesson has been learned the sheep have been trained to bleat ‘ four legs good two legs bad’ in endless unison and repetition. But now Squealer has made a significant change to this now that the pigs have learnt to walk on two legs. From now on the sheep will chant four legs good two legs better.

The fact is that the EU is in crisis mode as a failing system and simply cannot be accepted by the PTB and their deranged army of followers who cling tenaciously to a political chimera; this much seems self-evident.

The restoration of sovereign nation-states is to be resisted at all costs. After all you wouldn’t want the bad old days of the independent nation-state, back would you. Leavers are thus to be browbeaten to accept the existing order, just as the animals were similarly browbeaten at the Jones farm.

The crucial issue of our time is – sleepers awake – not who gets elected but whether or not the next government – whatever its colour – takes us into the EU, which seems increasingly probable, and under what conditions.

Given the institutional framework of the EU involving liberalisation and freedom of movement between labour markets, freedom of movements of capital and commodities, rigid monetary policies, cutbacks in welfare systems, any attempts to implement social democratic policies will be brought to an end in short order.

Any government of whatever stripe entering this arrangement will have to implement neo-liberal policies irrespective of whether it calls itself social-democratic, left-wing or whatever other variety of political fauna.

As for the 51% who voted leave, the great Revolution Betrayed, too bad, sup it up chaps. Party politics is a racket, or didn’t you know.

Back at Animal Farm the pigs had reached and agreement with the local farming community. It was all so cordial the wine was flowing and everyone in Jones’s cottage was having a roaring time. But …

There were shoutings and bangings on the table, sharp suspicious glances between the farmers and senior pigs, furious denials.

The source of the trouble appeared to be that Napoleon (the pig leader) and Mr Pilkington (the farmers representative) had each played an ace of spades simultaneously.

Twelve voices were shouted in anger, and they were all alike. No question now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.” [7]

NOTES:-

[1] Politics as a Vocation – Max Weber – p.222

[2] Ideology and Utopia – Karl Mannheim – p.140/141

[3] The Looting of Greece – Jack Rasmus – pp.116/117

[4] (Op. cit.)

[5] Changing the EU: Mission Impossible, The Full Brexit: FOR POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY, DEMOCRACY, AND ECONOMIC RENEWAL, The Folly of “Remain and Reform”: Why the EU is Impervious to Change – Lee Jones March 2019 – see my previous article

[6] Max Weber, op.cit.

[7] Animal Farm – Orwell – p.120

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Jim Scott
Jim Scott
Dec 7, 2019 2:07 AM

I think your position is heavily effected by your preference for Brexit. What you are pushing for is a permanent Tory government that is linked through the Super Deep State that now is the real power in the Western world. These new elites that are directed through elite organizations like the Atlantic bridge that is made up of billionaires, deep state military figures and select right wing politicians. It will be these people and organizations who will run the UK or at least England and Wales, largely from the USA perspective. It is little wonder that opinion changing media funded… Read more »

Phillip Bayliss
Phillip Bayliss
Nov 20, 2019 1:58 PM

I’m glad that Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t read stuff like this. Governments do stuff and other people comment. The idea that commentators drive the politics, and politicians should do the stuff that commentators ‘require’ is a relic of narratives generated by ‘media studies’ in red brick universities, which understands ‘popular culture’ as being meaningful. Newspapers used to sell adverts, and then they invented ‘news’. Dogs, tails, wagging.

George Mc
George Mc
Nov 20, 2019 4:31 PM

By your own admission, commenters are “other people” i.e. everyone who isn’t in the government i.e. “ordinary people” . So, substituting, let’s see what you say:

“The idea that ordinary people drive the politics, and politicians should do the stuff that ordinary people ‘require’ is a relic of narratives generated by ‘media studies’ in red brick universities, which understands ‘popular culture’ as being meaningful.”

And we sure as hell know that ‘popular culture’ i.e. the culture of ‘ordinary people’ is meaningless! So much for the (non-government) electorate!

mikael
mikael
Nov 20, 2019 11:38 AM

Hehe, good atricle and in all true. Its not easy to manuver in any way or form when your world consist of standing knee deep in manure, wiggling isnt moving, its wiggling, debationg whats socialism contra capitalism, etc to whateverism, dont do jack shit, its stil wiggling, in an world where morons dicate what we should think. The matra I read often is socialism=Venezuela, yeah, look how bad it is, but they never bother to say why, saction etc, isnt even mentioned, and yet they tell us with dead certantys what socialism really is, giving everything to people for free,… Read more »

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Nov 22, 2019 2:38 PM
Reply to  mikael

Mikael – your HARD brexit will NEVER be.

Your screed is but the end of strings , that go way up into clouds held by minds you will never know, pulling your thoughts.

It is sad if you are sincere – but laughably inept if you are agitating.

Jim Scott
Jim Scott
Dec 7, 2019 2:30 AM
Reply to  mikael

Mikael can you explain why it is the hard right and USA billionaires who are pushing to break up the EU. People like Steve Bannon and Robert Mercer who through Cambridge Analytica who distorted the Brexit debate and who are creating division worldwide and especially in the USA which has no remaining credibility as being a Democracy. They are White USA Supremacists and Mercer is the top donor to the Make America Great Super PAC and to Nigel Farage’s Brexit campaign. These guys are not about empowering the masses and don’t give a F… about the well being of the… Read more »

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Nov 19, 2019 10:50 AM

Animal Farm applies to your far left nutters, or Trump’s fascists, not a democratically created and elected EU. Must try harder Frank when you try and write an anti-EU, pro TTIP UK-US neoliberal screwing of the people of Britain will get post-Brexit.

mark
mark
Nov 19, 2019 11:29 AM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

The EU is to democracy what Jimmy Savile was to chastity and morality.

Heathen Tinker
Heathen Tinker
Nov 19, 2019 9:44 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

I didn’t spot any reference to TTIP or the US in this article, was I in a different time-space continuum or are you just making inferences that suit your own standpoint

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Nov 19, 2019 9:57 PM
Reply to  Heathen Tinker

Those WILL be the consquences of Brexit if Johnson is PM, it’s not even a debatable point.

Heathen Tinker
Heathen Tinker
Nov 19, 2019 10:48 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

I am not denying that Johnson would be a disaster for this country, or that Corbyn is by far the best hope from a particularly uninspiring bunch,however after 62 years of watching Europe evolve I have a very bleak outlook where the priorities of the EU are concerned. In case you mistake me for an insular Little Englander, I spent 15 of the first 16 years of my life abroad, I was born in Spain and raised in Italy and Libya. The forced integration and homogenisation demanded by the EU, which has evolved into nothing more than the beurocratic arm… Read more »

George Mc
George Mc
Nov 20, 2019 7:47 AM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Indeed you “Must try harder Frank” when you keep atacking those “far left nutters” i.e. attack the only weapon we have.

charming64
charming64
Nov 19, 2019 9:55 AM

Rather talk about Jack Jones

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Nov 18, 2019 11:34 PM

Holly shit – the groaniad throwing in the towel?

Peter Orborne almost suggesting tories should vote Labour!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/18/boris-johnson-lying-media

The world turned!

Jim Scott
Jim Scott
Dec 7, 2019 2:37 AM
Reply to  Dungroanin

Well the Graun does have to get the approval of the deep state before publishing.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Nov 18, 2019 10:25 PM

Come, come comrade animals, you wouldn’t want Jones back would you.’

One “Farmer Jones” figure that the Remoaniacs are fond of using against Brexit is of course, The Donald.

“Surely you don’t want The Donald to come and chlorinate your chickens, steal your NHS and give it to American corporations, and ravish your maidens?” (Definitely not that last one….after all, we have Randy for that…).

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Nov 18, 2019 11:04 PM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

Speculation is inevitable. What bargaining chips does Britain have? Which countries are we likely to make trade deals with? Corbyn is depicted as a no-hoper, or in the context of Franks analysis a failed revolutionary so who exactly is going to deliver a form Brexit the left hope for? Johnson? Sturgeon is not exactly pro-Brexit. The Greens and Plaid Cymru are both remain Obviously not Swinson. Yet these are the choices – so isn’t time a few more people nailed their colours to the flag and spelt out who we should vote for on 12th December, and how this vote… Read more »

Jim Scott
Jim Scott
Dec 7, 2019 2:50 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

Mike I guess you haven’t noticed that billionaire Robert Mercer who paid for the Cambridge Analytica psyops during the Brexit campaign also happens to be Trumps largest donor through the USA White Supremicist “Make America Number 1 Super PAC”, and to Nigel Farage. Steve Bannon also moved his fascist campaign to Europe too.

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins
Nov 18, 2019 8:24 PM

How delightful & great relief, Frank: even before the end of the first paragraph, I realised you weren’t referring to our clueless old, but still precocious, Owen 🙂

BigB
BigB
Nov 18, 2019 8:20 PM

Excellent Frank: meet the new Jones: Same as the old Jones. According to the WEF ideologues: there were three phases of ‘trade-in-goods’ globalisation – roughly corresponding to the industrial revolutions. This expansion was led by finance capitalism – the old ‘grey’ Jones. Latterly, and still contemporary, signs of long-term systematic and irreversible damage began to emerge in the life-value ground – succinctly described by John McMurtry as “whatever you need to draw your next breath”. This was detailed in the Cancer Stage of Capitalism as ‘money multiplier cancer’ which McMurtry describes as the ’cause of causes’ and ultimate root pathology… Read more »

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
Nov 18, 2019 5:38 PM

One of the things this argument fails to address is why manifestos never include thoughts on coalition deals. The Libdems 2010 manifesto was a theoretical construct for majority government which noone believed they would achieve. By holding the balance of power, they had to compromise to join a coalition. Voters seem to think that that is evil: they need to grow up, but political parties also need to know what their voters saw as non-negotiable and what was tradable. Libdems collapse came courtesy of students feeling betrayed. Not to mention the far right press engaging in poison pen politicide for… Read more »

Kathy
Kathy
Nov 18, 2019 4:27 PM

I originally posted a version of this as a reply to one of the posts in the last Brexit / Corbyn article of a couple of days ago. It seems equally relevant to post it here. Corbyn is unfortunately trapped in the web the system creates for any one who tries to defy the system. While being of the system. He is forced into a trap that means he can not push to hard or he will lose any power he does hold. But if he does not stand strong over things he is supposed to champion he is week… Read more »

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Nov 18, 2019 4:50 PM
Reply to  Kathy

I doubt if Johnson would be committed to ‘broadband communism’ as pearl clutches in the right wing media refer to it. Corbyn may not be perfect and its certainly true to say large parts of Labour’s history do not bear scrutiny but at this point in time the alternative is Swinson, Farage, Johnson, or the tingers (if they haven’t already formed further splinter groups). I get the ideological arguments for coming out of the EU but without a left leaning party willing to confront Britain’s self-serving establishment we are mostly talking about theoretical rather than actual gains. As we all… Read more »

Kathy
Kathy
Nov 18, 2019 5:39 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

Harry, I am not sure if your post is a response to mine, but if so, I don’t want you to think that I am being negative about Corbyn of himself. I believe he is probably the best hope we have within the present system. If enough EU countries had similar people to Corbyn in power then at least there may be some hope for the whole of Europe to transcend in some small way. That in itself would be a big step forward and a paradigm shift that we so badly need to transcend in some small way beyond… Read more »

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Nov 18, 2019 6:08 PM
Reply to  Kathy

‘It is not being part of the EU that is the issue it is the ability to change the power base that controls the way things are.’ – the million dollar question, Kathy. Can we do it, how do we do it when Britain’s democracy (post Thatcher) has come to resemble the kind of one-party system that prevails in the USA – there you can vote for a man, a woman, a person of colour to be president, but not anyone who is not broadly sympathetic to the kind of cryptofascism linked to neoconservative ideology. We might argue that in… Read more »

Kathy
Kathy
Nov 18, 2019 9:11 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

Ahh yes Harry. In there lies the rub.As you say. The million dollar question as always is how do we. A seed of a dream is better then no dream but it is still a dream. But and this I think is key. It is the germ of an idea that transcendence can happen. This system is worn out. So there is hope. Brexit will not bring about the utopia as it is for the elites, by the elites and not for the people. But it shows that the people are ready and desperate for change. The energy is rising.

Andy
Andy
Nov 18, 2019 4:07 PM

Hordes of the billionaires orks came over the hill waving their pens. The lonely chess player considered his move as pens slashed and the blackest of ink thrown in his eyes. He blinked. Coward the hordes cried.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Nov 18, 2019 3:18 PM

So the article (yet another pushing for a HARD brexit) just 2 days ago not enough?

There are some ‘socialists’ who would decry the postwar Labour manifesto to not be ‘socialist’.

The only ‘bleating’ that i hear from ‘socialists’ is that their ‘socialism’ exists nowhere in Europe!

Yes – let us wait till the manifesto comes shall we?

1945 – Churchill out, Atlee in.
2019 – mini ‘Winnie’ OUT, mini Atlee IN.

mark
mark
Nov 18, 2019 4:16 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

Having lost the referendum, the Brussels Groupies sought to sabotage and delegitimise the result, first by the use of emotive and contentious language, “falling off a cliff”, “crashing out” and the like, and obfuscating the issue by inventing new categories of “Hard Brexit” (ie implementing the referendum result and leaving the EU), and “Soft Brexit” (ie ignoring the referendum result and remaining in the EU.) Some people think we live in a democracy. Some people think that voting in elections or referendums matters. Some people think Tweedledum is significantly different from Tweedledummer. Some people think that Labour and a Corbyn… Read more »

Vexarb
Vexarb
Nov 18, 2019 6:42 PM
Reply to  mark

Mark: “He would need a combination of complete ruthlessness and low cunning to achieve anything at all, and these qualities are absent.”

Hence Stalin’s comment on Ivan the Terrible, to its great director Eisenstein: You might have shown why Ivan needed to be so cruel.

mark
mark
Nov 18, 2019 7:10 PM
Reply to  Vexarb

As Kenny Rogers said, “If you’re gonna play the game, boy, you gotta learn to play it right.”
These people are owed nothing.
Jezza should have told the Zionist Mafia, if you’re going to tell lies and smears about us, we’re going to tell the truth about you.
You have to get down in the gutter with them.
That’s what Trump does. Go after him and he’ll come straight back at you.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Nov 19, 2019 12:11 AM
Reply to  mark

Could not agree more. The scum-bags who run this system will never follow their own high-minded rules, so why should we? You’ve got to fight fire with fire–nothing else works.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Nov 18, 2019 5:05 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

There are some ‘socialists’ who would decry the postwar Labour manifesto to not be ‘socialist’.

Can you support that with examples? I doubt it, but even if you could, in what way would that be relevant to this article?

The only ‘bleating’ that i hear from ‘socialists’ is that their ‘socialism’ exists nowhere in Europe!

Nice try, but it doesn’t really work.

2019 – mini ‘Winnie’ OUT, mini Atlee IN.

Are you really comparing Jezza with Clement Attlee? Come off it.
He has some good qualities. But in the same league as Clement Attlee?

I am reminded of this incident:

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Nov 18, 2019 5:06 PM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

oops, link didn’t post: this incident, or moment in a debate, rather:

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Nov 18, 2019 5:48 PM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

‘Can you support that with examples? ‘ Yes… “I would contend that the Conservative and Labour parties and their media backers are essentially class-based with the working classes pretty much excluded – particularly from the Labour party.” Frank Lee , in this article. Satisfied? I’m sure there are many such admissions by Frank & his stablemates. Sorry to Spike your and others efforts to persue a ‘hard brexit’ which was the worm in the brexit apple. Was always denied as a possibility even by the likes of Nigel – but it was and remains their only plan A. The referendum… Read more »

bevin
bevin
Nov 18, 2019 2:47 PM

You really fail to understand the EU and its current position. As I said elsewhere: it is crumbling, it cannot last. (enter the Parrot.) You have to view the EU in its real context-the Empire of which it was an integral part is in retreat. Swift retreat to its ancient bases. That Empire is the US led former British Empire, which has dominated the world, in one form or another since Waterloo. Talking of which: as Macron, a right wing Gaullist, is proclaiming from the rooftops of Paris, sees the EU as a revival of the Europe that Bonaparte wrought,… Read more »

lundiel
lundiel
Nov 18, 2019 4:47 PM
Reply to  bevin

France’s expansion into sub-saharan Africa is a no go. I know they’re investing and allowing some, rather minor, tariff free trade of foodstuffs from some countries but Africa got seriously burned before and it travels its own path with some Chinese investment. Other than that, I agree with your thoughts on global division of spoils.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Nov 18, 2019 5:09 PM
Reply to  bevin

I gave you a thumbs up. Nevertheless, I find rumours of the demise of both the USA and the EU to be rather exaggerated.

charming64
charming64
Nov 18, 2019 11:05 AM

‘Personally, I have found Corbyn’s performance both weak and politically malleable’ Haven’t heard anyone else suggest that JC MP is unprincipled or weak – but he’s now the leader of a party infested with rats and snakes he has management issues that anyone else would struggle with. It’s a cheap comment – there is no savior.

mark
mark
Nov 18, 2019 4:20 PM
Reply to  charming64

It may be cheap, but it’s also true, unfortunately.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Nov 18, 2019 5:11 PM
Reply to  charming64

Talking of rats and snakes, where are Blair, Mandelson and Cambell? They’ve been quiet lately. Too damned quiet. What are they plotting?

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Nov 18, 2019 9:05 AM

I would point out that I did not write the piece on the impossibility of Reform and Remain. The Gentleman in question was Lee Jones.

bevin
bevin
Nov 18, 2019 2:48 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Those [email protected]@@@@ing Joneses!

Antonym
Antonym
Nov 18, 2019 3:00 PM
Reply to  bevin

Except Lance Corporal Jones…

Fair dinkum
Fair dinkum
Nov 18, 2019 5:28 AM

‘Personally, I have found Corbyn’s performance both weak and politically malleable’
Perhaps, just perhaps, Corbyn is biding his time until he is safely ensconced at number 10.
Then swollen,psychotic, heads will roll.

George Mc
George Mc
Nov 18, 2019 5:08 PM
Reply to  Fair dinkum

“Perhaps, just perhaps, Corbyn is biding his time until he is safely ensconced at number 10.”

Oh what a delicious fantasy that suggest! Corby so meek till he gets there and then …BLAM! Out comes the machine gun and Blair and Hodge and all those venal phoney Zionist moralists get garrotted in a scene of apocalyptic carnage. I’d buy that movie!

Fair dinkum
Fair dinkum
Nov 18, 2019 11:02 PM
Reply to  George Mc

Deport the pricks to Greenland where they can watch the glaciers melt.

milosevic
milosevic
Nov 19, 2019 9:03 AM
Reply to  Fair dinkum

Perhaps after the Glorious Revolution, the ruling class can be strongly encouraged to personally colonize the Falkland Islands.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Nov 18, 2019 5:18 PM
Reply to  Fair dinkum

Don’t think it works like that. I dunno how exactly it works, but I imagine “interviews” (talkings to) by the head of the civil service, the head of the Secret Service, and the head of the Security Service, not necessarily in that order. Then before the poor guy has time to recover, the governor of the bank of England is wheeled in. An hour or so later, a trembling new PM is led to a darkened room, calling for a stiff whisky (“and leave the bottle!…”), sends for his new Chancellor of the Exchequer, and they quickly begin striking things… Read more »

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Nov 18, 2019 5:19 PM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

( Just like in the States, they show the new president the Zapruder film over and over, at least according to Bill Hicks… )

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Nov 19, 2019 12:17 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

A personal favorite! I do miss Bill Hicks so …

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins
Nov 19, 2019 8:41 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

yo, Seamus, you mean AlexJones, right ? 🙂

“It’s just a ride” bro. 😉

Fair dinkum
Fair dinkum
Nov 18, 2019 9:40 PM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

I fear you are right Mike, but perhaps, just perhaps, JC, being a vegetarian and a cyclist, will see through their BULLSHIT and tell them to FUCK OFF!

bevin
bevin
Nov 18, 2019 12:54 AM

“The crucial issue of our time is ..whether or not the next government – whatever its colour – takes us into the EU, which seems increasingly probable, and under what conditions.” Am I missing something here? The UK is a member of the EU. Unfortunately it joined and has never left it. The question, as I mentioned not long ago, when another variation on this theme was being performed, is whether the EU will allow a socialist government-and I think that when Frank sees the manifesto he will recognise that it is full of policies which the EU will define… Read more »

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Nov 18, 2019 9:15 AM
Reply to  bevin

Yes, about what I expected. But to cut to the chase, let’s make it brief. A vote for Labour or any of the other parties is a vote for Remain in one form or another. If you are happy with this go ahead. Welcome to the hotel California. As for the 51% who expected their referendum votes to count, well let’s say that their votes don’t matter. I’d call this betrayal by the political establishment assisted by their stage armies but perhaps I’m a bit old fashioned.

Dave Hansell
Dave Hansell
Nov 18, 2019 1:50 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

This is a familiar theme to one some of us were arguing thirty years back in the aftermath of Thatcher’s third election victory. Back then the position adopted by the Labour and Trade Union movements was in essence one which saw the Social Europe of Delores as a lifeboat to protect the post war settlement from the reverses which were continuing under Thatcher. The counter argument some of us were putting at the time was that the EEC (as was) could very well turn into a mirror image of the UK in terms of the economic orthodoxy driven by the… Read more »

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Nov 18, 2019 4:25 PM
Reply to  Dave Hansell

”It is an unfortunate coincidence that the only people who want to turn this election into a struggle over Brexit are those dead set against allowing it to become an election about neo-liberalism and rejecting Thatcherism.” Excuse me, but the Brexit issue is precisely about neo-liberalism and the rejection of Thatcherism. If anyone is dead set on avoiding this somewhat awkward political issue it would appear to be the Labour party, but this is hardly surprising since the Labour party is the de facto Remainer party. I realise this is a bit of an embarrassment and requires a variety Jesuitical… Read more »

bevin
bevin
Nov 18, 2019 6:52 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

“Strange business politics.’ It’s not that strange: I’ll repeat my point very slowly and perhaps then it will sink in. I am completely in agreement regarding the neo-liberalism of the EU. However I do not believe that the great majority of those voting Brexit did so because of their opposition to neo-liberalism. In fact most of the strongest supporters of Brexit are also fanatical neo-liberals, for whom the EU has not gone far enough or fast enough. The masses though, who do not view Brexit in that way, voted to leave because they want a new ‘social contract.’ Or rather… Read more »

George Mc
George Mc
Nov 18, 2019 8:01 PM
Reply to  bevin

Thanks Bevin, you have made it much clearer. I have never thought too much about the whole Brexit thing because I’ve always had an underlying feeling that we are – not to put too fine a point on it – fucked either way. But I always had the feeling that the vote for Brexit had the same basic reason behind it as the vote in America for Trump which happened a few months later i.e. both were the products of despair. Both represented movements to rock the boat in an attempt to shake everything up in the hope that –… Read more »

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Nov 19, 2019 10:03 AM
Reply to  bevin

l will repeat my point very slowly and perhaps then it will sink in. Firstly, we can do without the patronising comments – as above. Secondly as to what you believe, I must congratulate you on your clairvoyance. Herewith ”I do not believe that the great majority of those voting Brexit did so because of their opposition to neo-liberalism. ” You do not believe fine, well I do believe, why else would they vote for Brexit other than as a belated reaction to the neo-liberal ascendancy which began with the Blair abomination began circa 1997. You see we can both… Read more »

bevin
bevin
Nov 19, 2019 4:05 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

There is not a lot of point in continuing a discussion in which you are so intent on repeating the same debating points even though they have been dealt with-for the most part because we are in agreement that the EU is neo-liberal, that it cannot allow the Labour manifesto to be implemented and that most people vote not on the basis of theoretical affinities “I am against neo-liberalism” but according to their judgement of how things are working out for them. Do you understand that last point, Frank? I’m suggesting that the good people of Sutton voted against neo-liberalism… Read more »

Dave Hansell
Dave Hansell
Nov 19, 2019 4:07 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

It is also the case that a social democratic programme is not possible inside the straightjacket of the UK. Discuss, dealing with the points previously made rather than conveniently ignoring what does not fit the simplistic narrative.

Dave Hansell
Dave Hansell
Nov 19, 2019 10:41 AM
Reply to  Francis Lee

The salient point is still being avoided. What evidence exists and can be presented to support the assumption – because that’s all it is at present – that neo-liberalism/rentier capitalism will be rejected and jettisoned in the UK SM if the UK leaves the EU? In the first instance the notion that the UK and it’s Establishment are and have been merely rule takers from Brussels/Strasbourg does not bear even the most perfunctory examination. At the EU level, as with the UN, the UK Establishment has always sought to punch above its weight in shaping policy and legislation. A detailed… Read more »

Philip Roddis
Philip Roddis
Nov 18, 2019 6:45 PM
Reply to  Dave Hansell

“The idea that more jobs are lost from from free movement of labour than from free movement of Capital seems to dominate the debate on EU membership/Brexit, as well as distort the reality.”

Very well put, sir.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Nov 18, 2019 5:24 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Agreed. Unfortunately, we have little choice at this point in time but to vote for a set of disagreeable …ts, in order to free ourselves from another set of less disagreeable (charming even), but actually slightly more evil …ts over the water.

Once we have done that, we can then set about getting rid of the first lot of disagreeable …ts and possibly bringing about, if not quite socialism, then at least a form of prosperous equality spread over as much of our country as possible.

Vexarb
Vexarb
Nov 18, 2019 6:55 PM
Reply to  bevin

“UK needs to be a fairer, more equal society in which there are such things as equality of opportunity to medical and dental care, access to education, public services and non profit utilities. And that is what the Labour manifesto will offer them.”

Corbyn might even implement it: Socialism says, I’m back in Britain.

Grafter
Grafter
Nov 19, 2019 11:21 AM
Reply to  Vexarb

TORY OR LABOUR ??

Tweedle Dum or Tweedle Dee ?
No thanks
We in Scotland are voting SNP.

mark
mark
Nov 19, 2019 11:34 AM
Reply to  Grafter

Good luck with that one.
Tweedledum and Tweedledee and Tweedledummer.