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The OffGuardian View – GE2019

Image source here

Consider this a catch-all discussion thread on the UK General Election 2019.

A few readers have been asking in email and in the comments why we aren’t running daily campaign updates on this, ‘the most important election in decades’, or ‘the most important election of the century’, or since time began or whatever hyperbolic descriptive being used.

The answer to that is simple. We don’t think it is the most important election since any of the above.

We think that mantle goes to 2017, when, if Corbyn’s Labour Party had won (and they nearly did) it would potentially have significantly changed the face of UK, European and maybe even world politics.

You can tell this potential was there because the Establishment at that time united across its entire spectrum to denounce Corbyn & Labour as dangerous and unelectable. No equivocations (or barely any). Just wall to wall hate and fear porn.

Contrast with now. Take off your blinders and just see the diff.

The Guardian in 2019 running ambiguous ‘maybe it’s time for a change’ pieces, and even pro-Corbyn pieces from some of its resident Blairites who were all hating on Corbyn or rooting for the LibDems two years ago.

We even have articles in The Financial Times suggesting Corbyn might be the best choice after all.

The recent “leaked” documents, on both Brexit and the NHS, have certainly been a boon to Labour. Though some sections of the establishment claim it was “the Russians” (a warning Labour should heed – Russiabaiting is a two-edged sword), the more likely explanation is that was other sections of the establishment, keen (for whatever reason) to give Labour a bit of ammunition.

Some of you might think this means the Establishment had a change of heart and likes socialism now.

If that’s helping you feel engaged and optimistic then sure – you go with that.

Others – OffG included – suggest what we’re looking at are clear signs Labour has capitulated on some vital issues, offered assurances to key people on key questions that make the Establishment feel able to back them as a safe alternative to the wildly unpopular Tories.

One key difference, of course, is that back in 2017 Labour were still committed to honouring the 2016 referendum result and taking the UK out of the European Union. Now they have – for reasons no doubt good to them – all but signed up to Remain.

This will, of course, make them more appealing to the very powerful pro-EU faction in the Establishment.

And as an added bonus, if Labour does get in on its current ‘Remain in all but name’ policy it will very likely render itself constitutionally unable to enforce its own manifesto of re-nationalisation, since EU laws expressly forbid any such ‘monopoly’ move (although this is a matter of debate).

That’s probably a nice reassurance for the chaps at the FT too.

Then there’s the much-touted “Green New Deal”, an issue at the heart of the neo-liberal agenda and which seeks to corporatise the environmental movement and net the wealthy elite billions of pounds in taxpayer’s money.

And of course, Labour has been demonstrating for a while its utter preparedness to go along with mainstream imperialist narratives on many aspects of foreign policy.

It leapt in eagerly to ‘condemn’ Russia’s perfectly legal military presence in Syria, and – like any good US poodle – made no attempt to distinguish between it and NATO’s utterly illegal invasion. Corbyn was also quick to buy into the totally data-free and implausible ‘Russia poisoned the Skripals’ narrative.

Not to mention the Labour luminaries clamouring for the release of the “Russia report” about how the Kremlin “interfered in the Brexit referendum”, and xenophobically decrying the “dirty Russian money” behind the Conservatives. (In this, Corbyn’s party have acquired some strange allies).

The FCO at least must be assured a Labour government will be on message for most of its future anti-Russ agenda.

All this – and any amount of other negotiating behind the scenes, of which we currently know nothing – could explain why Labour is currently getting a much easier time from the mainstream than it did last time.

Granted, there is much to support in Labour’s manifesto: re-nationalisation programmes (supposing they are possible), more money for schools and the NHS, scrapping tuition fees. If asked, we would have to tell anyone to vote Labour as, at least, the least bad option.

But realistically we have to acknowledge that the above issues do not bode well for any future Labour government being much more than a watered-down exercise in Blairism, with a sidelined Corbyn as its purely nominal head.

Is this the intended outcome? Or is the establishment hedging their bets in the hopes of a hung parliament, with a cross-party ‘government of national emergency’ taking us just a bit further down the road toward fascism?

There’s no denying “hung parliament” meme is certainly getting a LOT of coverage. See here, and here).

Another reason OffG has done relatively little coverage of the day-to-day of the campaign is that so little of any value has actually been said. This “most important election” is marred by a total disregard for the idea of rational debate, and complete collapse into binary factionalism.

Talk of policy is banished to the shadows, replaced with the ridiculous back-and-forth of identity politics and smears.

Sure, a few Labour die-hards talk of pensions and schools, but mostly we hear about “antisemitism” on the one hand and “Islamophobia” on the other. Corbyn didn’t listen to the Queen’s speech, Johnson said something rude about burqas. Corbyn is a commie, Johnson a Nazi.

Can the “most important election” be defined and decided by tabloid headlines? Should it be?

In the end, just to clarify – before we’re inevitably accused of being “anti-Labour” (since binary thinking is the mode du jour) – We do agree Labour are probably the only choice. Generally speaking, things are more likely to improve with them in charge. They, at least, have a few ideas and some kind of desire to at least try and change things for ordinary people.

Sadly, it looks as if they may be handed the reins of power, only on the understanding that under no circumstances should they try to steer.

Feel free to disagree wildly with all of the above in the comments below. Give us your own opinions. We’ll be keeping this on the front-page until polling day.

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Jenni Sinclair
Jenni Sinclair
Dec 12, 2019 9:31 AM

Wasn’t the 2017 Conference agreement to go for a GE and the last option was to seek a second referendum. Labour Party doing what the members agreed at conference not ‘capitulating to the establishment’. Get a grip.

Cesca
Cesca
Dec 11, 2019 9:13 PM

JC could have defended himself better from the lying Tory scum but think he seriously couldn’t believe they’d lie so much and sink that low, neither could I. His intellect, understanding, nuance and beautiful ethics have seriously stood out in this election, i’ll be gobmacked if they don’t carry him over the line tomorrow.

If they don’t we’ll know the election has been rigged, we know he has rock star status anywhere he goes, people love him, polls saying he is unpopular are false. Let’s hope we get a true result tomo, if JC doesn’t win, it’s rigged.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 10, 2019 11:02 AM

A bit of a xmas ad from Jezza
A cross between Grandad & JohnLewis

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1204133009986850816

Ahhhhhh … now get out and VOTE you scamps.

Cesca
Cesca
Dec 11, 2019 8:56 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

That is gorgeous Dungroanin, cheers for the post =)

UreKismet
UreKismet
Dec 10, 2019 12:47 AM

I see an example of the danger I was gonna post on already in this thread. My point is if Johnson & the creepy tories win, the NHS promises etc., are certain to go out the door even if Johnso hadn planned on implementing them, on the specious grounds “That those euros have done us over and there is barely enough money for the rich let alone the poor.” Johnson’s carpet bagger allies are incapale of getting england outta the EU in a manner beneficial to the england economy as the need to gold plate the few will supercede the need to feed the many. When that happens there will be a massive backlash during which the drongos, many of whom prolly voted for the tories but no longer admit it, will shift from “Corbyn should have won” to “Labour was robbed, all that bullshit about anti semitism, once again… Read more »

RobG
RobG
Dec 9, 2019 10:53 PM

The bookies still have the Torys with incredible odds-on, can’t lose bets…

https://www.justbookies.com/election-odds/

Whilst putting various Labour connotations at best at 10 to 1.

This is all complete rollocks. The bookies have obviously been nobbled, just like the opinion polls.

It’s all so corrupt it’s beyond belief.

On Friday the 13th we will either awake to a Tory Dickensian theme park, or else Corbyn as prime minister (which is still my bet).

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 9, 2019 11:53 PM
Reply to  RobG

Bookies don’t lose.
They balance the money bet against money potentially paid out.

All it means is that a LOT of money is being bet on a tory win.

Who has LOTS of money to spend in this election?

It is designed to make people think Labour WILL lose so don’t bother VOTING for the LOSER.

PSYCHE.

If you are betting type the odds mean it’s worth a bet and arbitraging to cover that bet with the opposite bet.

Actual professional bettors will be coining it.

That does not matter to the bookies who will make money anyway.

It obviously doesn’t matter to the bettors who will lose – they are playing a bigger game.

mikael
mikael
Dec 9, 2019 6:41 PM

Finaly, an article with deasent coments, all hail to the people, from BigB to HarryS, to mention some few, but what we really need is an good debate, not an dead beating contest, I am a bit tired of them my self. But in this times people argue from their poits of referances, when it comes to Remian or leave to the AGWs new mantra the Grean deal, witch is basically the same people doing different things, but never the less the same club, just redifing the direction we are heading and redefining what we are seeing. I give you an analogy. I grew up in an place that when I was an child was really nice, wdie open plains with an high diversity of plants, and life in general, to what it is to day, where the nature is gone thru over population of half domesticated animals aka raindeers,… Read more »

Antonym
Antonym
Dec 9, 2019 5:19 PM

Trump wants less US money spend on European defense: ok, close down >90% of US bases in Europe: win -win. Except that the US Mil-complex doesn’t like less fixed sales.

Antonym
Antonym
Dec 9, 2019 5:00 PM

Influential Corbyn-supporting Facebook page run by Hamas
The “We Support Jeremy Corbyn” Facebook page, which has 72,000 members, was run from the Gaza strip from 2017 until recently.

https://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Antisemitism/Influential-Corbyn-supporting-Facebook-page-run-by-Hamas-from-Gaza-610306

Corbyn wants to immediately recognize a Palestinian state, so why wouldn’t they return Labour the favour? Its all about the UK right ????

Orage
Orage
Dec 9, 2019 5:56 PM
Reply to  Antonym

To be fair and for the sake of balance, let us look at ‘foreign interference’ in British politics

ZigZagWanderer
ZigZagWanderer
Dec 9, 2019 8:01 PM
Reply to  Orage

Ah yes … Shai and Joan. They might have some difficulty in remaining anonymous .

ZigZagWanderer
ZigZagWanderer
Dec 9, 2019 7:47 PM
Reply to  Antonym

That story comes from Tazpit Press Service as I’m sure you know. Sadly TPS couldn’t provide any tangible evidence to support it. ” A source in the strip who wished to remain anonymous told TPS “Abu Rouk serves Hamas’ information campaign and is guided by it.”

That’s it … pathetic don’t you agree ?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 9, 2019 3:41 PM

Maybe Off-G wants to look at the desperate polls? Maybe ADMIN may even consider posting this as an article? It has many links so would be grateful if you can post it at the top when you approve it. Thankyou mod. —– I posted this a while ago Richard Murphy put it on his site. I do so again to try and help us understand wtf they are doing. https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/11/24/why-the-observers-opinion-polling-is-wrong/ Additionally I came across useful studies that explain the why? & the how? Of the fake polls. 1. Why? – it seems close polls INCREASE turnout. https://www.nber.org/papers/w23490 So the purpose of the Opinium/YouGove/Survation type gross distortion is to LOWER the turnout. It is good to get that proof. 2. How? – it is the self selected group of recipients and their repeat inclusion, and ‘secret’ weighting formulae by the pollsters that delivers that result. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/10/29/long-read-are-opinion-polls-pro-leave-biased/ ‘A extremely essential and timely… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 9, 2019 4:33 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

I think you’d have been better posting Craig Murray’s last two Blog posts, which, if correct, put the Tories at 42/43% of the vote, same as 2017, this is still higher than what Labour are probably Polling in reality, alas, we still have the issue of where disgruntled traditional voters are peeling off too, if soft-Tories/Shy-Tories are going to vote elsewhere, or abstain, will the Brexit Party voters be peeling off to the Tories, or again abstaining, and that’s before we focus on Scotland & Wales with their nationalist Parties, both of which happen to be Remain, which complicates the mix further. By what I’ve personally witnessed in a very typical traditional Labour Constituency in South Wales Labour won’t achieve 50% of the cast vote as it did in 2017 and is unlikely to gain the two seats we could have also won in 2017 had resources been freed up… Read more »

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 9, 2019 5:18 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Chris , Craig Murray is going through the same exercise I did in my first link and pointing to the fake 42% number. The polling co’s have not been releasing their raw data numbers. And right on cue the Groaniad publishes a snapshot of the latest ICM poll – still showing a substantial tory lead! But no link to their data set. ICM website itself is only going up to their previous poll! Tell me they aren’t playing fast and loose Meanwhile enjoy Bozo pocketing a ITV reporters phone instead of looking at a photo of a child in a hospital floor! Cummings defends by suddenly inventing the abolition of TV licence charge ! LauraKoftheCIA spins it to some fake report of Han ocks aide being assaulted by ‘Labour activists’ based on NO evidence. She/BBC don’t show footage of bizo the clowns panic and grabbing of the reporters phone and… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 9, 2019 5:44 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

Well, whatever happens, my Mother is casting my Proxy Vote for me and that will only go one way, namely, Labour, as will both my parents votes, I take it our next door neighbours will also vote Labour, both kids heavily in debt with University fees and neither able to get full-time jobs. I’m aware Labour’s posts votes from my own peer group in Wales (all post 40), however, unaware of any Tories changing Parties as not one to associate with Tories – the few UKIP voters I know, God knows how they’ll vote, but I’d imagine they actually won’t bother – Torfaen is not in the Valley’s though and the Valley’s Brexit vote was far higher than in my own Constituency – the folks I know down at Cardiff University have run the numbers and believe Labour’s on course to lose seats in Wales, which is why I’m now… Read more »

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 9, 2019 7:32 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

It ain’t over till it’s over!

If I can get my hands on the ICM raw data tonight- i may even sit down at a computer and fire up spreadsheet to try find any truth it may contain.

This time in 2017 it was being reported as a 15% deficit i daw it as 3% – it ended up at 2.5%.

Should I ignore the numbers this time and accept the ‘reporting’?

Anyway here is a bit of venting, can’t wait for what he’ll do with todays tory shitfest.

https://dorseteye.com/jonathan-pie-speaks-more-truth-in-5-minutes-than-laura-kuenssberg-and-robert-peston-have-in-their-whole-careers/

Antonym
Antonym
Dec 10, 2019 4:50 AM
Reply to  Dungroanin

Climategate centered around the UK’s UEA: a long institutional experience in manipulating un-shared raw data, all for the “Good Cause”.
Albion in the lead again, after 8 decades.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Dec 10, 2019 4:39 AM
Reply to  Dungroanin

DG, you should submit your piece for consideration as an article to the email address shown in OffG contacts. I doubt that the editors churn through all our comments and may not notice your request.

Clive F
Clive F
Dec 9, 2019 1:53 PM

I thought…. judging by some of the latest ‘news’ that we are still being bombarded with, about Corbyn, that he is, both, a commie and a nazi. But my constituency Labour MP, Clive Lewis, who used to be on CND national council, and is funded by the pro-nuclear GMB union, and failed to vote against Trident renewal, then told us that he had to fail to vote against it because he is a ‘multilateralist’ (yet still hasn’t signed the multilateral ICAN Parliamentary Pledge in support of the multilateral UN Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons) has now informed us that he has talked Jeremy Corbyn out of his anti-Trident commitment by saying “look Jeremy, do you really want to go against the power of the unions?” Now the Labour manifesto threatens to “renew Trident” if Labour are elected. I suspect that must be rather pleasing to the warmonger British… Read more »

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 9, 2019 1:26 PM

And one further egregious example of BBC skullduggery was spotted.

‘A newspaper editor’s frank account of Jeremy Corbyn’s ‘rock star’ popularity ‘wherever he turns up’ and his ‘prime ministerial’ status astonishingly made it into the 10.30pm newspaper review. By the 11.30pm review, the article in question was not discussed at all’

https://skwawkbox.org/2019/12/09/video-truth-about-corbyns-popularity-public-love-him-hes-pm-material-how-the-hell-did-it-get-onto-bbc-an-hour-later-it-didnt/

Yes – lets be digging up that spaffing rose garden Cameron/Clegg dogging spot and transfer Corbyns allotment there – he needs to be near the office and keep an eye in the weeds.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 9, 2019 1:21 PM

And while I’m here here is a US msm view on getting their hands on NHS money …yum yum – feed me!

‘The United States has publicly declared that it would demand not only that its companies have “full market access” to the United Kingdom, but also that “government regulatory reimbursement regimes are transparent.” That would likely mean a provision allowing US drug companies to have a greater say in how the United Kingdom values medicines for the NHS, similar to one included in the US trade deal with South Korea last year.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/06/business/nhs-trump-trade-drugs-analysis-intl-ge19/index.html

Mucho
Mucho
Dec 9, 2019 12:01 PM

If the UK votes that lying piece of slime, Boris Johnson, into office, it will be a very, very sad day for this nation. A seriously depressing, dystopian future will be the reality. Not a grain of hope in sight. Friday 13th December (hello Satan!) will be a day of mourning, nothing to celebrate. It’s a choice between a good man and a total fraud, and these idiots are about to choose the fraud. Use your vote wisely and end this madness. Brexit is nothing but a con. A senior British diplomat in the US has quit with a blast at the UK government over Brexit, saying she could no longer “peddle half-truths” on behalf of political leaders she did not “trust.” Alexandra Hall Hall, the lead envoy for Brexit in the British Embassy in Washington, said that she had become increasingly dismayed by the demands placed on the British… Read more »

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 9, 2019 11:34 AM

Ho ho ho… The minions are revolting ‘When supporters of Boris Johnson say: he achieved what so many claimed was impossible: he got EU to renegotiate #Brexit deal therefore he can also get an EU trade deal done by December next year although many say unlikely .. It’s important to remember the red line PM crossed.. /1 He didn’t get the new Brexit deal by bullying/impressing/charming the EU. He got it by agreeing to protect their single market on island of Ireland after Brexit by putting a customs border down the Irish Sea. Allowing a ‘division’ between NIreland + GB he’d pledged never to do /2 Of course the EU also engaged with Boris Johnson because they believed that he – as a political figure – had a better chance of selling a deal back home to MPs than Theresa May ever had – BUT have a chat in EU… Read more »

Antonym
Antonym
Dec 9, 2019 2:07 AM

This US run club should have been abolished in 1992 after the Warsaw Pact died in 1991. With president George H. W. Bush -ex-CIA director- the US didn’t didn’t. The CIA was surprised by the fall of the Berlin Wall, but this failed mafia managed to keep its secret dominance through this POTUS of their own.
Europa had no clue and was just grateful for the new Europe: Germany even made a quick blunder incorporation of East Germany out of surprise.

Antonym
Antonym
Dec 9, 2019 2:08 AM
Reply to  Antonym

Sorry, wrongly placed.

RobG
RobG
Dec 9, 2019 12:43 AM

Off Guardian is way off the mark with this piece.

Mostly because France has been in an open state of revolt since January 2016 (that’s almost four years ago, folks).

The ‘yellow vests’ are just the latest incantation of this.

None of this gets reported, or talked about; and certainly not on this board.

The tides of revolution are all around us, but none of it ever gets mentioned.

falcemartello
falcemartello
Dec 9, 2019 12:35 AM

“Hung parliament edging us closer to fascism” Are we not already there! Lo Stato Corporato. a phrase first coined by Benitto Mussolini in 1919. the Corporate State. Ever since Corbyn took the helm of the Labour party anglo-zionist and Blairites where on a war path and white aunting Corbyn’s paradigm from day one. If the legacy media are giving Corbyn favourable coverage it is plain as day light that a pact has been made with the plutocratic and oligarchical class. The next move of the elites will be in commodifying the environment. With the advent of 5G network this will further the nail in our dying western system . Then they will eliminate cash and digitalize money which will further our Orwellian night mare. Post Scriptum: The mere fact that Brexit has not happened only proves that democracy died with Socrates. Pure insult to any one with a scintilla of… Read more »

Cesca
Cesca
Dec 8, 2019 11:19 PM

Lol, the and T POpost should have read Cesca

and T
and T
Dec 8, 2019 11:17 PM

Something else, in the current climate, u can’t get power and get the opportunity to change to change things in the current climate, if u tell the truth, which is why JC and Tulsi are cautious. Say what u can but don’t burn ur boats to power, where u can seriously change things.

I totally agree with them!

RobG
RobG
Dec 8, 2019 11:10 PM

Galloway has completely called this one wrong (but please still vote for him if you’re in West Brom)…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whx-P37J8Wc

Love him or hate him, we need people like George Galloway in parliament.

We do not need creatures like Bojo.

Cesca
Cesca
Dec 8, 2019 11:34 PM
Reply to  RobG

Sadly i;m not but i love George too and totally understand why he feels gutted with JC.

Currently, it needs a disgusting, long game atm to get anywhere approaching power, George, Ken etc feel hurt now but hopefully there will be a gr8 endgame.

RobG
RobG
Dec 8, 2019 11:56 PM
Reply to  Cesca

Cesca, the story of Jeremy Corbyn is one of the most incredible stories in modern politics.

If Corbyn becomes prime mister this coming week – and I believe that will happen – it will become even more incredible.

At this point the psychopaths who rule us will no doubt assassinate Corbyn.

At that point we might need to do ‘the French thing’.

Andy
Andy
Dec 9, 2019 12:10 AM
Reply to  RobG

I’ve got a feeling quite a lot of journalists will be fearing the madame if things go that way.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 9, 2019 6:33 AM
Reply to  RobG

RobG,

Regrettably, as I’ve detailed here from personal experience in my own Constituency of Torfaen, Galloway has not called it wrong, indeed, he’s stated the best Labour can hope for is a minority government in alliance with the SNP – he’s detailed the peeling off of Labour Traditional Voters (working class) to the Tories, and within my own Working Class peer group in South Wales this is exactly what has happened, numerous non-political and Labour voters annoyed at Labour over Brexit and many other issues of a local nature – when even my own MP is at risk of losing his seat in a Constituency that’s been Labour since the 1920’s, then the party is at risk of losing 5 seats in Wales come Thursday, one of which is down the road from where I live when resident in Wales, which is once every five weeks.

Geoff
Geoff
Dec 9, 2019 11:04 AM
Reply to  RobG

Galloway has called for a world wide ban for anyone who doesn’t except the given view on the so called holocaust, why George is this the only war we’re not allowed to talk about, what happened to free speech George, and why didn’t you work it up the other louse , Sugar , when you had the opportunity of doing so over his ridiculous claim about the boring antisemitism he made against you which lead to you being sacked from talk sport

Cesca
Cesca
Dec 8, 2019 11:09 PM

So sad u lovely offG people feel so disillusioned by JC’s performance during the election but i think he’s been spot on. The SCUM want us to feel it’s all got to be now, or else, waiting means death etc but that’s rubbish. Most ppl are taken in by action must be taken now, what about analysing the best action first? JC has been perfect about that, why are u asking him to behave like the scum instead of discussing? The scum want to stop discussion and just be evil like they are, JC is so right to set a standard they should come up to. Hope i’m not too late to offer ideas to some and i want to just say sorry to the gorgeous Edward Curtin. i commented on something where i was over protective about ppl i care about, Edward’s article was totally right, i got sensitive.… Read more »

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Dec 8, 2019 8:29 PM

Admin, you stated that this GE article would be pinned to the top of OffG for the rest of this week. I’ve noticed that it’s already slipped into 4th place!
We Brits would appreciate if you could keep it at the top, as promised, thanks.

RobG
RobG
Dec 8, 2019 10:25 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Don’t worry, the psychopaths who rule us know that Corbyn will be the next PM.

The psychopath’s stenographers carry on like an old banger that’s run out of fuel.

timfrom
timfrom
Dec 8, 2019 7:17 PM

But realistically we have to acknowledge that the above issues do not bode well for any future Labour government being much more than a watered-down exercise in Blairism, with a sidelined Corbyn as its purely nominal head.

Let’s see if you’re still saying that when/if Corbyn releases Julian Assange (the acid test) and cancels arms sales to Saudi & Israel!

RobG
RobG
Dec 8, 2019 10:36 PM
Reply to  timfrom

Corbyn has said that Assange will be released under a Labour government.

The Labout manifesto also states that a Labour government will immediately recognise a Palestinian state.

The Labour manifesto also supports sanctions against Israel.

I could go on and on with this (not least NATO and the ‘nuclear deterrent”).

Anyone who votes for the Tories is certifiably insane.

Geoff
Geoff
Dec 9, 2019 11:09 AM
Reply to  RobG

ha ha ha ha ha true!

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Dec 9, 2019 11:24 AM
Reply to  RobG

Not just insane but cowardly.

Some seem to regard Brexit as the most important issue in politics, and that delivering it is worth almost any cost.

Corbyn has set out a position which they don’t like meaning the only politicians offering Brexit in its purest form is de Pfeffel or king of the Kippers, Nigel Farage.

So why not come out and say you should back them – surely the new structure that will emerge once free of the yoke of Europe will turn Britain into the envy of the civilised world?

Just think about it: no more starving families, Uni’ fees that are not on par with a mortgage, hospitals that do not resemble battlefield medicine, and ulitility services provided by friendly collectives rather than rapacious corporations.

Oh joy

bevin
bevin
Dec 8, 2019 3:02 PM

I am simply amazed that there are still those who, rather than recognise the obvious, persist in arguing that Corbyn is not committed to withdrawing from the neo-liberal EU. It is not as if he is operating without a manifesto and the entire thrust of the manifesto is to govern against the basic principles of the EU. For example the re-nationalisation of railways and utilities is in clear contravention of EU ‘principles’. The same is true of the plan to nationalise broadband provision which clearly contravenes neo-liberal market principles. As to the idea of a second confirmatory referendum this should only worry those who are convinced-by bien pensant assertions- that Brexit was a fluke, maybe produced by massive external interference, and has no chance of being duplicated. This is not the case: the logic of electing a sovereign socialist government to lead the country in a new direction necessitates abandonment… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Dec 8, 2019 5:38 PM
Reply to  bevin

The vote is a capitulation to Parliamentary cretinism. All they want is that vote. Then they do what they are going to do anyway. Power does not reside in Parliament or even less so in No10. For the longest part: power resides in the haute bourgeois billionaires – and their MNC/TNC corporate vehicles …including of course the international financial institutions. These compromise the Transnational Suprasociety …the TNS. The corporatocracy operates predominantly offshore: via the Transnational Money Multiplier System …the TMMS. The global governance architecture includes the old Bretton Woods organisations – IMF/WB/WTO and the UN – and the financial system – run through the BIS/CB nexus. This system is suprasovereign to the EU, EAEU, SCO or any other free trade organisation. By the time you get to Corbyn – if he gets into No10 – he has to ask for about ten different permissions to wipe his arse. NATO is… Read more »

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Dec 8, 2019 8:34 PM
Reply to  BigB

BigB,

I respect your views hugely, however, on the GE, by not voting for Corbyn and/or abstaining, we merely aid and abet the implementation of a Johnson-Trump alliance, a TTIP+ On Steriods, the transformation of Washington-led military alliance of NATO to become a Washington-led POLITICAL-military alliance of NATO (to replace the purposefully-destroyed European-centric EU, with its warts and all…).

Be VERY careful what you wish for.

BigB
BigB
Dec 9, 2019 10:57 AM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Frank Speaker: Likewise – respect. But your supposition is that a Corbyn led Labour has the political and moral courage to do anything about it. And also, that Labour itself is not a corporate shop-front. If you’ve followed any of the links to Cory or Vanessa and Whitney Webb’s exposes: you’ll have seen that Labour’s GND is backed by any amount of Big Organisation; Avaaz ‘Theory of Change’ affiliates; and philanthrocapitalism’s dark money web of the ‘non-profit industrial complex’. If you think Corbyn has the backbone to stand up to pressure: scroll down and read the four or five paragraph’s I posted to show how he responded to pressure by inventing political capital for “Labour’s Magnitsky Law” during the Skripal psyop. He and his party forced the agenda – not the Tories. Based on fantasy events that did not happen. To the point of sympathising with Navalny and invoking support… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 9:37 PM
Reply to  bevin

Bevin, I’m not too sure if you kept a keen eye on the last Labour Party Conference in September this year, which clearly underscored the fact that most of the Shadow cabinet, actual Party membership, and those still continuing to vote Labour are very much pro-EU, indeed, the tussle over Corbyn’s Brexit compromise is illustrative of the divisions that exist within the Labour Party, and the Labour Movement itself – I’m in a minority as someone who opposes Brussels on purely Socialistic principles, I’m also in a minority of being a proud member of the Welsh working class, the majority of my peers, both on Social Media and in real life being Middle Class, lower Middle Class, but Middle Class none the less. If authorities such as Steve Howell – deputy election strategist to JC in the 2017 GE and very much grounded in wales is unable to get his… Read more »

John
John
Dec 8, 2019 1:39 PM

Vote away you’re all wasting your time! Like George Carlin said “I know you’ll be having one of those really swell elections you like so much, you take part I’m sure your country will improve immediately. I on the other hand will be doing essentially the same thing as you, the only difference is, is that when I get finished masturbating I’m gonna have a little something to show for it folks”

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Dec 8, 2019 8:39 PM
Reply to  John

The easiest thing in the world, to avoid the responsibility for changing the world for the better, is to sit back and abstain and say “FU i no longer care”.
If you feel happy, and can sleep at night, for aiding and abetting the neoliberal coup of Britain, then simply stay as you are, coward.
For sure, Corbyn / Labour are far from ideal, but your view is defeatist, and I would even go far to say may be part of an orchestrated PSYOPS campaign to ensure Johnson wins.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Dec 8, 2019 9:35 AM

Apropos of the forthcoming election. We would do well to recognise the fact that the UK and most of the rest of Europe is under American occupation and has been so since 1945. Operations Mockingbird, Paper Clip as well as the direct interference of the internal politics Euro states which continues to this day. Largely through the existence of NATO the US has a direct leverage to determine European geopolitics and political economy. Europe is a system of vassalised states led by pliant Petainist leaderships which puts US interests before their own. This is taken to be the natural order of things. So the existence of sovereignty in Europe is a questionable to say the least. It would be true to say that the right-wing parties are more pro-American than the left, but generally speaking when the master cracks the whip the social-democrats jump. Of course none of this is… Read more »

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Dec 8, 2019 12:44 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

‘Personally I think this is outrageous, but judging from some of the comments posted these issues seem to be matters of little or no importance.’ – that’s pushing the envelope too far, I would challenge you to find any online community that loathes imperialism more than Off-G regulars (apart from a couple of Empire apologists who keep us entertained with peverse theories about the benefits of mass murder and asymetric military power). Anyway, Corbyn is still the best bet if you want to undo domestic harms, or reduce Britain’s role as a prominent terror state: as you probably know he voted against EVERY military action proposed by the UK government during his 35 years in Parliament. Having said that I agree whole-heartedly with your concern about right wing Jewish groups exploiting antisemitism for transparent, and unsavoury political motives – pretty low in my opinion, yet this hasn’t stopped the Guardian… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Dec 8, 2019 2:13 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

I disagree: if you loathe imperialism – you have to loathe green imperialism. On per capita throughput alone we are one of the richest countries in the world. According to LabourGND: 93% of us are in the top bracket of the global consumption/pollution bourgeoisie. To vote to extend that is an imperialism over all life on earth. But that really is pushing the envelope. That envelope is the biosphere itself. If we never take this into consideration there is only one outcome. An outcome we have all grown Spectacularly blindsighted to. Why are there on a couple of people pointing out the obvious logical fallacy here? If we want to end imperialism: we have to recognise we are the imperialists. Even LabourGND admit: if everyone had our level of consumption – the ecosystems would collapse. And yet we are proposing to vote to extend our ecological footprint even further? What… Read more »

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Dec 8, 2019 2:28 PM
Reply to  BigB

‘On per capita throughput alone we are one of the richest countries in the world.’- scant consolation for children eating out of bins or for those who drop dead in the job centre having just been deemed ‘fit’ to work.

What you seem to be saying is that Corbyn does not deserve support because he cannot reverse all of the ills that have afflicted western culture for decades.

BigB
BigB
Dec 8, 2019 4:49 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

What you seem to be saying is that we expropriate even more material wealth so that the visible become the indigenous invisibilised dropping dead. As they have dutifully done for centuries unreported elsewhere. So we can continue in good conscience to expropriate more. If you bother to scroll down: that is definitely not what I am saying. I said we should address our social problems and poverty morally and responsibly with degrowth and wealth redistribution. By Labour’s own figures: many of our ‘poor’ and still in the global bourgeoisie. So we have to redress our problems with a new globally responsible class value-ethics: one that is life-coherent and socially just. We are entering deeper into false consciousness and bad faith if we think that cyclical voting will ever bring social justice globally. It is just a lie. It is not even a noble lie. Imperialism is the highest phase of… Read more »

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Dec 8, 2019 5:24 PM
Reply to  BigB

‘we should address our social problems and poverty morally and responsibly with degrowth and wealth redistribution.’ – this discussion is about the election on 12th Dec, and as we both know the conditions you describe are simply not on the table, although the excesses of hypercapitalism are bound to be stimulated even further by another 5 years of unfettered toryism. The problem with your analysis is that NO political system (in its current guise) will deliver it: not in the UK, not in Europe, not in China, not in India, not in Russia, and certainly not in the USA. The question is, do you want to land a weak blow against it via a Corbyn-led government (unless you really think there is no difference between him and Johnson) or put your faith in a movement outside of traditional power structures that will bring about the kind of changes you describe?… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Dec 8, 2019 8:18 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

You are right – partly – I said so myself below. And for this election I concede. But the reason that we have got here is that that we always seem to wait to the last minute …then hold our nose and vote for the very system we have been supposedly critiquing all year. And due respect, Harry: I tried to warn everyone about Corbyn nearly three years ago …more than enough time to at least start a contingency. I did not set out to “score a weak blow” against Corbyn. I set out to score a strong blow – to expose that he was a terrorist supporter by dint of the fact that he collected money for the White Helmets. This was no aberration: as he supports the charity regime change Jo Cox Foundation to this day. You must have seen the amount of times I have tried to… Read more »

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Dec 8, 2019 9:07 PM
Reply to  BigB

‘If you think I feel superior: you’re wrong.’ – far from it, I learn more from your posts than most others.

And if there is any superiority its simply because you know a lot about these particular issues.

The sticking point is between the gap in your analysis (which is correct) and how we bring about stuctural changes when certain ideological and economic systems fight so ferociously to protect their interests (irrespective of the cost to the rest of the planet).

Broadly speaking I think there is more of a chance of these issues being addressed (however imperfectly) with Corbyn at No:10 rather than de Pfeffel or the pot loving Swinson.

BigB
BigB
Dec 9, 2019 10:07 AM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

I think we can both agree that de Pfeffel is no environmentalist? But he became a pseudo-environmentalist as soon as he got the keys to No10. If it seemed to me that he was reading from the WEF’s cue cards when he got in: that is because he was. It was obvious to many the the Maybot had no control whatsoever. She was being controlled by Cummings and more importantly Sir Mark Sedwill …the behind the scenes kingmaker. We can thank Tony Blair for that. He set up the FCO and Cabinet Office as his executive council. Now the PM is their spokesperson. Anyone who thinks that Corbyn is suddenly going to develop a spine and restructure power is going to be mightily disappointed. Power is a global compact and global governance architecture that operates transnationally and ‘offshore’. It has been like that for most of our political lives: but… Read more »

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Dec 9, 2019 8:17 AM
Reply to  BigB

And due respect, Harry […] Because they are not, Harry.

Things are getting bad when BigB sets his wopro to the “Readers Digest Subscription Hustle” mark.

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 3:37 PM
Reply to  BigB

So we should all go back to cave dwelling and hunter gathering so as to be an example for the rest of the world to avoid extinction? How is that going to work?
To be serious I want you to present a concrete workable manifesto which is not going to scare not only the 1% but the rest of us.

BigB
BigB
Dec 8, 2019 8:35 PM
Reply to  Orage

Scared: you should be fucking terrified of the ecogenocidal consequences of this election. Consequences I have been trying to make known for decades – and for a few years herein. The solutions are obvious once we stop denying the problems. Degrowth and the very opposite of what every party stands for sums it up. When it comes to the wire like now: there is nothing that can change. But we absolutely need to change. There is actually a growing sustainability, degrowth, and biophysical economics literature to draw on. In preparation for the next round of not being able to convince people that our choice of paths is suicidal. Perhaps the focus should not be on the Cassandra’s who are saying “Look out” …but on the majority who say “Fuck off, it’ll be fine”. Except it won’t. And there is no pleasure in I told you so. Something has to break… Read more »

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 8:00 AM

Ardent Brexiters of supposedly any convictions who want to vote Tory to ‘Get Brexit done’ as our disheveled clown of a PM keeps reiterating should consider the following: 1. Brexit was voted for by a narrow margin of voters. This has caused a major split in the country. 2. Brexit was not fought on party lines even though some parties took strong lines overall on their stance, but within all the major parties there were remain politicians and leave politicians campaigning on opposite sides. 3. The advisory referendum was then taken by the politicians to work out the details of how this wish could be carried out. The referendum could be nothing but advisory because of the intricate details of how this process can be carried out needed a lot of close work. Brexit included as a first step, a withdrawal agreement but also a future trade agreement. 4. Parliament… Read more »

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 8:06 AM
Reply to  Orage

I aslo forgot to add that for Johnson ‘Get Brexit done’ means merely signing a withdrawal agreement. Brexit will only be done quickly if the Corbyn formula is follwed because in remaining in the customs union all the difficulties in negotiating a new trade deal will be much simplified.
The second arm of Johnson’s Brexit will involve protracted trade agreements with everyone something that will take ages. It is also the case that disentangling current EU agreements and regulations within the post Brexit Britain will entail many pitfals and hidden problems.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 9:10 AM
Reply to  Orage

Your admiration for Brussels is misguided I’m afraid, as detailed under the Lisbon Treaty, and a few subsequent reforms to monetary policy from 2011 onwards – lets be blunt, the EU is a neoliberal project, its monetary policy forces perpetual austerity on the majority of the members of the Euro, and to be blunt, it don’t give a fuck about the masses, if it did there would be no austerity – when you sacrifice real lives on the neoliberal crap known as ECB/EU Monetary policy no such Institution deserves the support of the Left, so, I’ll stick to actual Leftwing politics thanks very much, the ones Bevin, Benn, Foot, Castle, Shore et al espoused, or are none of these Socialist hero’s Socialists as none had time for European Unification pipe dreams.

Geoff
Geoff
Dec 8, 2019 12:15 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Iam confused, so Johnson, ugly Patel, the fanatic Raab, Farage, Redwood, doughnut duncan smith want us to leave the EU because it’s a neoliberal concept? who would have guessed that, I must be missing something, I think I’d best vote Tory

Editor: Basic error of logic. The fact the EU is a neoliberal organisation (and it is by its own admission) in no way implies this is the reason any given individual would want to leave it. The EU is many other things as well, and clearly the UK Establishment is divided over whether being in or out would serve their interests best – or at least they are committed to the fairly meaningless sideshow that is the Brexit ‘debate.’ – ed

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 12:51 PM
Reply to  Geoff

Geoff,

If you are of the opinion that the EU is not a neoliberal project, one that came into being following the Single European Act, and one placed on steroids with single monetary union, fine by me, but as I request of others, do actually read the text of the Lisbon Treaty, paying particular attention to all tracks on fiscal consolidation across the EU member states, ever closer monetary policy for all Euro members, and all competition clauses – if that ain’t neoliberal economic proscriptions, I don’t know what is!

As for the ERG Nutters, I can’t speak for them, I can only speak for the traditional Labour Left, which was never in favour of EEC membership, so God knows what they’d make of the EU in its present, post-Lisbon guise.

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 12:22 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Where did I express admiration for Brussels or the EU? It is important to recognise that none of those socialists you mention lived under a globalised casino capitalist system as we do now. We are not going to evade the system by leaving the EU, merely being a smaller fish in a shark infested sea. I ask you a simple question: will a socialist post Brexit government be able to carry out unfettered socialist policies? The answer is clearly no. Please be realistic and understand that the current system is beyond Brexit and the EU. It is about getting a socialist inroad into the system and then having a socialist voice to change it from within. A revolutionary approach sadly is currently not on the cards.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 1:08 PM
Reply to  Orage

I’m none too sure where you think the Uk will ever again be given an opportunity to Leave the EU, the fact remains if we don’t exit now, based on the 2016 EU Referendum result, I doubt we’ll ever leave until the thing implodes, or we have an actual civil war very similar to that that took place in the States in 1860, and that war was not about slavery, it was about the Federal entity known as the USA. Now, lets be rational, the power Elite across Europe will not allow members of the EU to actually leave the Body, not via the ballot box anyway, as Macron himself has observed, the French not being too keen on Brussel’s since the advent of the Single Currency, so, if not now, when please, because internal change within Brussel’s is virtually impossible, as detailed on this site on a few occasions… Read more »

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Dec 10, 2019 12:38 AM
Reply to  Orage

“Where did I express admiration for Brussels or the EU?”

Where it oozes out from underneath.

Shardlake
Shardlake
Dec 8, 2019 9:13 AM
Reply to  Orage

I find it difficult to counter anything you have written and think it a well-reasoned analysis, so thank you for it. Our current prime minister is on record as not wanting the people to vote for anything that will take the nation back to the past when in fact that is precisely what he desires. Mr Johnson yearns for the days when the laws didn’t protect workers rights and that before the introduction of the NHS if a person was sick and couldn’t afford medical bills, they died. Mr Johnson’s reluctance to be scrutinised by Andrew Neil so the electorate can make an informed choice when they lend their votes speaks volumes. The problem is that of those who are most likely to be adversely affected by the measures a new Conservative government will undoubtedly seek to impose are not the people who read and contribute to websites like this… Read more »

Geoff
Geoff
Dec 8, 2019 11:04 AM
Reply to  Shardlake

It will certainly affect me,and millions like me, if people had daily access to sites like this, it would probably change the outcome of the election, I get educated by both the leader and the comments.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 1:13 PM
Reply to  Shardlake

Shardlake,

You claim our present ‘unelected’ PM desires to take the country back in time, that may be so, alas, i’m quite happy taking the nation back in time also, back to the 70’s, when we had near full employment, strong trades unions, people had roofs over their heads and inequality was actually closing, not widening as of today. Further, we can get rid of our own Administrations via the Ballot box, however, we can’t get rid of the Commission via the ballot box, so, let move away from TINA, as its really most depressing to hear folk continually infer their is no alternatives, when actually there are alternatives such as those documented by Mitchell & Farsi, and funnily enough, by Corbyn himself when a Backbencher.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Dec 8, 2019 6:59 PM
Reply to  Orage

”Brexit was voted for by a narrow margin of voters.” So what?

It wouldn’t matter if the majority were only one. First past the post system. Please note that no-one argued against FPTP before the referendum, but having lost the Remainers haven’t stopped bellyaching about the result which for some reason they declared to be unfair, and somehow illegal. And please don’t try to kid me that the Remainers would have jumped at the result – albeit narrow – if the referendum had gone their way.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 7:58 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Francis, You are indeed correct in pointing out had Remain won the 2016 EU Ref., then that would have been accepted as the legitimate verdict/outcome, regardless of what Farage or the Tory ERG Group had to say about it – which, demonstrates the pure hypocrisy and lack of demonstratable support for democracy by your average Remainic, who’s mostly a liberal progressive bent, certainly not a Socialist bent. Political Scientists and Historians will have great fun charting how so many were fooled into believing the result of a Referendum was so undermined and perverted by those who allegedly are advocates of democracy, whilst denying an actual democratic outcome that a majority of the Establishment opposed. Having just listened to the first 20 mins of TMOATS with George Galloway, and his guest Prof Sir John Curtice, I’m aghast how the Labour Party is now perceived in many of its once loyal heartlands,… Read more »

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 8:16 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Chris
You must really grow up and stop calling remainers by other juvenile names. There is no hypocrisy in holding one view on Brexit and there is no need to lecture me that only true socialists accept Brexit as the only way forward. You are indulging in cultism, the very thing you accused others of.
Seriously if you can convince me how Brexit will make this nation prosper overnight then I may be converted but this shallow name calling is tedious and cannot be taken seriously. I could for example point out that socialists brexiters are in the same boat as Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson Gove and the like, unlike the majority (63-65% of labour voters in the referendum), but I won’t.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 9, 2019 6:02 AM
Reply to  Orage

No Orage, Its you that needs to grasp the nettle, its you that needs to grasp the fact that a certain number of extreme Europhiles have been intent on voiding a democratic outcome since the EU Ref came in in June 2016 – if you had not noticed, these same folk began by trying to overturn Corbyn’s own Election as Labour party Leader and blamed him for the defeat, we’ve then witnessed a plethora of excuses by said same folk claiming the June 2016 Vote was null and void and there was no legal reason whatsoever to follow through with the will of the UK electorate, these persons are REMAINIACS, they are opposed to democratic outcomes and many are found within the PLP and LibDem Party – indeed, see Ms Swineson’s comments, which was to revoke Article 50 and ignore completely a Referendum Result the majority of Parliamentarian’s voted to… Read more »

Orage
Orage
Dec 9, 2019 5:53 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Chris You assume a lot. Many on the Left, myself included You do not represent all the left nor do you not own the ‘truth’. I am also of the left by my view is different from yours and more nuanced. So please stop acting like a hurt betrayed socialist. It is not the Labour party that has stimied Brexit, the Tories did when they had a majority. despite us knowing full well our own demographic was not having it, AS I pointed out before, you are in the minority and that is what you have not accepted, you wish to ignore that 48% of the population and 63-65 of Labour voters do not agree with you. I myself understand the intricacies. I left Labour when Blair got in and rejoined when Corbyn was elected because he was elected and because I realised that at last the Labour party may… Read more »

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Dec 10, 2019 1:03 AM
Reply to  Orage

You must really grow up and stop calling remainers by other juvenile names.

And the blind and the lame came to [Jesus] in the temple; and he healed them. And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased, And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 8:08 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

If remain won there wouldn’t have been any need for soul searching in order to avoid the self harm that is Brexit.

JudyJ
JudyJ
Dec 9, 2019 2:57 PM
Reply to  Orage

“…the self harm that is Brexit”. I have to agree with you even though I voted to leave the EU. But, and this is a very important BUT, the reason the situation can now be classified as “self harm” is because there have been bumbling, thick idiots in charge of the exit mechanics since the day the referendum produced the “wrong” result for them. They seem to have spent most of the following two years sitting on their backsides complaining about the outcome and thinking about how they could best turn it round or sabotage the exit process, rather than just seriously getting on with it. I do not believe that it was the referendum result that will most likely prove damaging to the country, it was the intellectual and moral limitations of those empowered to implement it. Like spoilt children, their view was that if they couldn’t have what… Read more »

Orage
Orage
Dec 9, 2019 5:18 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Judy
The major unforeseen obstacle to an efficient Brexit has been the eat your cake and have it syndrome that has characterized both sides.
If a clean hard Brexit is what it takes, there will be protracted negotiations for a new deal, no ifs and buts. Plus there will have to be a border between NI and the republic, again no ifs or buts.
It is because nobody had the integrity to accept this and to try to pull the wool over their own eyes that this situation arose. The real consequences of leave of possible destruction of the peace process in NI and also of the economic destruction of UK was not acceptable and hence the obfuscation.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Dec 9, 2019 8:56 AM
Reply to  Orage

Good post, but i disagree with there being no Establishment, they are beyond Brexit and will win either way.

Anyway, your comment reminded me of split views on the EU: the right wingers accuse it of being the EUSSR, whereas the left wingers say it’s a Neoliberal project.

To the rest of us a middle-of-the-road attempt to stop war in Europe and improve the living standards of the working person; it’s generally succeeded on both points.

Yes, it’s far from perfect, but so is everything else, and choosing the best of all “evils” is not the worst that can happen and often is an essential tactic.

Breaking up the EU only serves the agenda of Atlantacists, the true neoliberals, who wish to divide and conquer.

Geoff
Geoff
Dec 9, 2019 10:31 AM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

I’m glad someone else sees it as I do, none of the above respond to my question, why do they think it’s going to be great living under these right wing fanatics like Raab, Patel, Lord Snooty, ian arsehole smith and the rest of the fascists , just what is it they see as being great, I’m glad I’m the age I am, because I couldn’t put up with what about is to happen in the workplace, why people can’t see it I will never know, and the nonsense argument ‘we can always vote them out’ well, we see the difficulty of that with this election, there’s a chance in the future for another Tory lite government, and we’re back to square one, the Labour party should maintain these policies for the next election because people will be sick of the right wing bastards after five years, although I doubt… Read more »

Orage
Orage
Dec 9, 2019 5:29 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Permit me to disagree attempt to stop war in Europe The so called peace in Europe is a hollow one because it was done by a process of occupation of Europe by the US through NATO. It failed to uphold this peace notably in the Balkans and in Ukraine, in fact in the later it was a chief instrument of the war/ Plus other NATO interventions in the ME and threats against Russia. You see my view is that US does not really like the EU but traded that for NATO so tha it insisted that all newcomers to the EU should also be members of NATO thereby circling Russia and also ensuring fealty from the vassal states, let them indulge in the fantasy of economic independence. It is this battle for the soul of the EU and its removal from NATO that could save the European project. Brexit will… Read more »

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Dec 8, 2019 2:01 AM

Empirically, there is only one course of action to leave the EU superstructure before it implodes outright & devastatingly for the UK & Her Majesty Parasite Queen Elizabeth II plus her spawn progeny. If the Limeys in the UK decide to remain they will most assuredly be directionless under the leaderless & guidance system dysfunction of Brussels bureaucrats, autocrats, & technocrats which are just lackeys & functionaries for Goldman Sachs & the Giant Vampire Squid. The UK Limeys can opt for existential perdition under Brussels tutelage in the workhouses designed for them by Goldman Sachs & USA oligopolists if they want to. Frankly, nobody holds out much hope that the UK Limeys will ever figure out that Goldman Sachs made the UK & EU in their image by forcing everyone into a finance union that ensures EU wide poverty & austerity at the behest of the IMF & World Bank… Read more »

BigB
BigB
Dec 8, 2019 10:42 AM

MOU I agree. As you know: I see the City of London as the cancerous rectum of the universe. It is not the only diseased black hole down which the very life of the biosphere is draining …but it is the original and most diseased. Goldman Sachs et al came to London to avoid federal jurisdiction and take advantage of the unregulated lawlessness of the Euromarkets and access to secrecy jurisdictions ‘offshore’. Of course, now they have Delaware – a whole state that is offshore. Or Ireland …a whole country … But it all started in London: which is still the epicentre (or anus) of the ‘Spider’s Web’. And no, us ‘UK Limeys’ do not have a clue about the exponentially metastasising transnational ‘money multiplier cancer’ centred here. Most of us that is. Even less do they know or understand – that solely in order to preserve itself and reproduce… Read more »

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
Dec 8, 2019 1:35 AM

If an election is i portant enough to matter it is important enough for people to actually talk as if decision-making actually mattered. 1. It is important to discuss immigration and population dynamics like adults. It is not racist to hold opinions on such matters, any more than it is adult sanity to leave your front door wide open for anyone to come doerp in your living room of a night. There are enormous implications and consequences resulting from mass migration and if politics actually matters, discussing those issues will not descend into identity politics, crying ‘racist’ every five minutes etc etc. Democracy can only function if adults holding different viewpoints can engage respectfully, without smearing, sneering and distorting. 2. It is important to discuss the reality of the EU and what Remaining will mean for the UK as a nation. It is important people understand that all the European… Read more »

Vexarb
Vexarb
Dec 8, 2019 8:37 AM
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

Rhys Jaggar: “This election has no serious coverage, so I ignore most of what is going on.”

Took a brief glance at BBC political correspondent on World News (the first in years) likewise no serious coverage of the points you raised. Probably a deliberate attempt by this AZC propaganda medium to trivialise the importance of the Corbyn factor in this election: after 40 Thatcherite “years that the locust hath eaten”, a real old fashioned Socialist has arrived to head the Labour Party.

Jo
Jo
Dec 8, 2019 1:00 AM

I really can’t agree that Labour is getting “an easier time” this time. Certainly not from the Guardian. It’s still at it. Hyde wrote a truly vicious article about him the other day. The mods were deleting posts by the dozen and the comments closed very early. Sparrow called Friday’s debate a draw. He also failed to acknowledge Corbyn twice raising Johnson’s and his Party’s track record on racism yet Robinson wouldn’t let those issues in, nor did he challenge Johnson on them. He also failed to correct Johnson when he claimed his Party is having a n independent inquiry into Islamaphobia. That’s not true. It’s a silly wee internal review. Finally, when someone asked what should happen when politicians lie, Robinson allowed Johnson to turn it into a JOKE!!! All of these things went right over Sparrow’s head. BBC bias strikes again! The hatred is still there in the… Read more »

Mighty Drunken
Mighty Drunken
Dec 8, 2019 12:31 AM

So a slight warming to Labour is detected and the reason is because Labour have sold out in some way? This feels a leap with no evidence but there is an obvious difference between this election and the last and it isn’t Corbyn.

Johnson is a well known liar with no shame and probably the most right wing cabinet ever. This is why Clarke and Major say don’t vote Conservative.

Also the argument doesn’t make sense as Labour are already “compromised” by the PLC and other MPs who do not see eye to eye with Corbyn. If anything the continues AS allegations show that Labour hasn’t sold out.

anon
anon
Dec 8, 2019 12:11 AM

I have voted Green (I have a postal vote, which I have submitted already). Only the Greens have been CONSISTENTLY opposed to Trident, NATO, Heathrow expansion, and the monarchy. I do not agree with all of the Green party’s policies (I am further to the right politically, but I despise the perverse “socialism for the super-rich, but otherwise every person for himself/herself” that the UK has experienced since the bailout of the banks, which took place under a Labour government), but the party has always had its priorities right, and formulates its policies on principle, rather than changing its mind according to what Murdoch et al. demand. I refuse to vote “tactically” because doing so merely legitimises “first past the post”. I prefer to exemplify the absurdity of the current system (based on the figures given in the Wikipedia article cited in the OffG editorial, in the 2017 election, the… Read more »

Vexarb
Vexarb
Dec 8, 2019 9:11 AM
Reply to  anon

And the Greens in principle are onto the most important issue, the Environment, the existential issue which transcends mere party politics and national defense.

RobG
RobG
Dec 7, 2019 11:40 PM

Usually the bookies are on the mark with gambling odds, but on this election they are way off the measure…

https://www.justbookies.com/election-odds/

They are calling a massive odds-on Tory victory, with Labour at least at 10 to 1.

It’s a good time to put your bet on folks, because the bookies have been knobbled, just like the opinion polls.

Nothing is real in the world we now live in.

Corbyn will walk it next Thursday.

Everyone knows this in their hearts.|

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 8, 2019 12:36 AM
Reply to  RobG

Bookies always win. Their odds reflect betting. That is not s poll.
Just hedging.
Go look at the mathematics of bookmaking if you don’t believe me.

Geoff
Geoff
Dec 8, 2019 11:36 AM
Reply to  RobG

I hope you’re right, I got 16/1 five weeks ago labour win.

RobG
RobG
Dec 8, 2019 7:21 PM
Reply to  Geoff

I’m not saying that Labour will win a majority. What I am saying is that Corbyn will be the next prime minister, in a hung parliament (with Labour being in coalition with the SNP).

Guy
Guy
Dec 7, 2019 11:21 PM

Not in a position to comment very much on your up and coming election but if I may be permitted to express my opinion , PLEASE VOTE FOR CORBYN and change the political landscape .Thank you .

bob
bob
Dec 9, 2019 9:24 AM
Reply to  Guy

In what way do you think Corbyn wll change the political landscape?

Corbyn, supported by many outside the PLP but with little room for manoeuvre due to the 80% of his own MPs who want him out – the most awkward of positions as the anti-democratic rump still pull the strings; ideology still holds sway over and above human kindness; McDonnell still plotting to oust him; the ludicrousness of the anti-semmitism ‘sham’, poorly handled …. shall I go on …. don’t see much change of anything.

bob
bob
Dec 9, 2019 9:32 AM
Reply to  bob

this is the sort of country the UK is – don’t know if many know this – the ‘powers’ that be have changed the May Day bank holiday (2020) into a memorial of VE day, yes, there’s no recognition of ‘workers’ next year rather another ‘grand day out for war’ as the 75th remembrance of VE day relpaces the workers day – bank holiday on Friday rather than Monday next May – we cannot ever not remember the ‘war’ despite all the others we are illegally involved in – a shit country if ever there was one! Corbyn isn’t going to change this either.

Geoff
Geoff
Dec 9, 2019 10:54 AM
Reply to  bob

An absolute shithole I agree, strange though isn’t nearly every country in the EU has a holiday for remembrance day all we get is a load of hypocrites placing wreaths around a memorial , in this years spectacular the BBC swapped this years ‘celebration’ for one take a couple of tears ago because the fat slob didn’t know how to behave.

charles drake
charles drake
Dec 7, 2019 10:16 PM

what is wrong with zio cons keeping us safe?
already
it has been so since babylon talmud times
we need too succumb
already

paul
paul
Dec 7, 2019 8:56 PM

You can have a really nice kosher dogshit sandwich.
Or if you prefer it, you can have a really nice kosher catshit sandwich.

Dan Mallon
Dan Mallon
Dec 7, 2019 8:25 PM

Corbyn’s comments on yesterday’s BBC debate vis-a-vis Johnson’s deal impacting NI bowled me over. Brexit’s overarching theme of ‘crossed wires’ seems to have no bounds.

Andy
Andy
Dec 7, 2019 6:06 PM

Well this comment managed to get 5 likes and 1 reply before being removed from the Guardian. :-/ “How is Johnson supposedly polling at 42% when major, hesseltine, clarke, greive and swathes of lifelong tories are warning against him, look up Raabs hustings video. One poll weighted over 65s turnout at 90%, complete nonsense. Similarly selective selecting for yougov debate poll. Thousands of people turning up wherever Corbyn goes v a couple of dozen mostly party loyalist for Johnson IF he turns up. Roughly 90% negative comments on Johnsons,cchq/factcheck(!),conservative twitter accounts. 8 Tory adds removed by google for lying, still massive amounts of ‘dark’ money pumped into social media advertising. The multimillionaire Cotswolds cheese farmer from Blur tweets he’s not supporting Corbyn, hundreds of replies, not a single one agreeing with him. Despite massive anti Corbyn, pro Johnson media propoganda. Where are these tories? Are we being lied to? Where… Read more »

Orage
Orage
Dec 7, 2019 6:03 PM

Very strange view if I may say so. The implication is that as the Labour party does not support Brexit, that it can’t also be anti-establishment or that it can now be tolerated by the establishment. The first point to make is this, Brexit is not a leftist or a rightist stance in itself and is not neatly divided between party lines. It is not even neatly divided within the establishment which incidentally as always will come out better off after a disaster than ordinary folks. Brexit cannot also be taken without considering the setting. The fact of the matter is that the prevailing system is a globalised neoliberal market consensus which is not going to change with Brexit. Brexit in the stage we are in just means alignment, both politically and economically and perhaps, if not for NATO, militarily with Europe with the alternative being an atlanticist or five… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 7, 2019 7:42 PM
Reply to  Orage

I’m none too sure what Leftists you are referring too, maybe you are American, but Brexit is the first crack in the dam as far as confronting neoliberalism/globalisation goes, or had you forgotten the EU is at the centre of all this crap, so, as for any Americanisation, strange how the EU favoured a trade deal with the USA that gifted us exactly what you warn against. The sad fact is, after 3.5 years of hearing only about Brexit in the UK, its difficult to state this Election is not about Brexit, when that’s all we’ve heard, and further, the Establishment, among that group most parliamentarians, have been wholly opposed to Brexit, that is upholding a democratic vote taken in June 2016. The ERG Group of Rightists is tiny in the UK, the pro-EU Establishment is exactly that, Pro EU and comprised in the majority of the UK Elite, which… Read more »

RobG
RobG
Dec 7, 2019 10:03 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

France is now in a state of open revolt, and that also includes Frexit.

The psychopaths who rule us will probably allow Corbyn to win this election, because Corbyn has offered a way out of Brexit and the majority of the PLP are still Blairite headcases.

This all goes back to the Russian Revolution 100 years ago (which was the only real revolution in modern history – forget the French and American revolutions). The psychopaths who rule us were absolutely terrified of the Russian Revolution, which is why they funded Hitler and the Nazis, and it’s why we had the total slaughter of World War Two.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 8, 2019 12:54 AM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Forgive me for resaying some of what i did on an earlier article I wrote about how the tory strategy was wrong- we already had the brexit election, 2017 and in effect also 2015, sandwiching the 2016 brexit referendum. This is NOT a brexit election AGAIN. It is the end of austerity one. I have also shared my conjecture of why the tories haven’t bothered to campaign on a manifesto – because the election was going to be rigged using postal votes, controlled msm and alt-media narrative. The mud slinging and other excuses to explain why Labour would have lost. I explained why the Labour strategy of dealing with that assault was correct. Finally I pointed out why the narrative manufacturing becomes almost impossible to get away with when 4 million registered to vote. Labour were only 800k behind 2 years ago ( when just 2 million were able to… Read more »

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 6:53 AM
Reply to  Dungroanin

Excellent Dungroaning. I think OffGuardian is playing a spoiler here sadly.

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 6:50 AM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

If you read what I said properly you would not have come to the conclusion that I am American and maybe also considered better my other points. The EU has favoured a trade deal with the US as it must, it cannot be without a trade deal with US otherwise it would be a trade war. In doing so the EU being a huge market can ameliorate some of the hegemonic terms the US dictates usually to weaker partners, as it would with isolated brexited UK. The EU has not succumbed to chlorinated chicken and other lowered food standards, nor accepted GM foods and is considering banning glyphosate, are all examples of how a trade deal can be ameliorated by a stronger bloc, something the UK alone will find difficult to resist. From a socialist point the only way forward I can see is fighting within the EU and fighting… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 7:02 AM
Reply to  Orage

Regrettably Orage, their is a huge difference between a trading Bloc, and what the EU actually is, which is a political entity with growing political aspirations, aspirations that can never be met, unless Germany wishes to be the EU’s banker of last resort. As for your assertion, and that of Dungroanin that this is not a Brexit Election, well, not too sure which Parliament you’ve been watching since June 2017, or media you’ve been reading since 2017, including this site, but this election is very much about Brexit and the type of country the electorate actually wants. The Remainiacs within the PLP have forced a policy on to Corbyn that alienates many of its traditional core vote and I’m supposed to celebrate said fact – don’t think so I’m afraid. As for your other outpourings, suffice to say Socialism and membership of the EU post-Lisbon are wholly incompatible – do… Read more »

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 9:06 AM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Chris Thanks for your replies of course they make sense and of course there are different opinions. But one problem for Labour is that 65% of its voters voted remain and therefore what you state as the core labour voters is not accurate. The problem has been that it is a regional vote and it is the important to understand that this is what shaped labour’s nuanced policy of neither ignoring the leavers nor the remainers. (By the way talking of cultusm those who use derogatory terms such as remainiacs and remoaners are the cultists)’ Moreover if you read my post above the matter has not really been settled by the referendum, a workable Brexit has failed to happen and for whatever reason and that is a fact. Now I understand the difference between trading blocks and political and economic and military units. The EU would have been best if… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 9:33 AM
Reply to  Orage

Think you’ll find the supposed figures for Labour Party voters supporting Brussel’s was 63%, I state this as was taken to task big time for being 2% out. Sadly, under FPTP, the majority of Labour constituencies actually voted to Exit the EU, and given these were within the Labour heartland’s, the Ashcroft figures move dramatically, to about a 50/50 split in those areas that elected to Leave within a Labour MP – that even Stephen Kinnock understands that you can’t put two fingers up to your core voting constituency and expect to carry an election says it all – London can vote 100% Labour, this does not transpose into a Labour win if it loses multiple seats in the North East, North West, Midlands and South Wales – all areas that have suffered most from neoliberal economic prescriptions, the very prescriptions now pushed by Brussel’s. The fact remains, the Leave… Read more »

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 12:39 PM
Reply to  Chris Rogers

Chris You are obviously very concerned with being accurate. But you cannot be accurate sometimes unless you look at the source of your data. Most data on how individuals voted according to their party voting are estimates. If you look at different sources you will get different results. For example in the Wikipedia article, the estimate is 64% labour voters voted remain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum Please note that this table does not show how each party’s traditional voters voted in the referendum. It shows the estimated (or actual) net decision in 648 of the 650 seats and the incumbents reflect those returned at the 2015 general election. On the You Gov website the estimate is 65% https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted So really we can go on pedantically discussing percentage but the message is the same, there are many more labour remain voters than leave voters. This is a fact and labour cannot ignore the majority… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 2:12 PM
Reply to  Orage

Orage,

The largest postBrexit Poll was undertaken by Lord Ashcroft, which was of 100,000 persons across the UK, in that sample it was found that 63% of those who associated themselves with Labour voted Remain – I too was taken to task on this subject matter elsewhere for quoting a 65/35 split.

Further, I was supplied with a full Constituency analysis by a University in taxes, courtesy of ‘Damian from Brighton’, this was given to me when having a heated argument with Owen Smith, the pretender heir to the Labour throne, he actually won that particular encounter as I’d forgotten that the former Polytechnic of Wales was actually in his Constituency, which had quite an impact on the Brexit vote when compared to the rest of South Wales – boring stuff, but its the boring stuff that matters I’m afraid.

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 9:39 AM
Reply to  Orage

I should also state clearly, that Labour’s position in 2017 would have delivered a Norway Plus solution, if Brussel’s was also willing to accept this new relationship, which is a policy I certainly support, which makes me an opponent of ERG Brexiteers who favour turning the UK into a mini USA, which is the last thing anyone on the Left desires.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Dec 7, 2019 8:47 PM
Reply to  Orage

So maybe the leftists should, like St Augustin ask god to grant us Brexit, but not yet.

Paul Mason (Karl Marx’s representative on Earth), said something very similar in a Grauniad article, about 3 years, and about 15 changes of direction ago.

No point in waiting for an idea moment for Lexit. If we don’t take this opportunity, we won’t get another chance. Not in my lifetime anyway, and probably not in the lifetime of anyone reading this (child prodigies possibly excepted).

I’m a Lexiter, very reluctantly voting Tory this time (in a marginal-ish Lib-Dem seat with Tories 2nd last time.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Dec 7, 2019 8:48 PM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

“idea moment” -> “ideal moment”

Orage
Orage
Dec 8, 2019 6:57 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

If you are voting Tory this time just because you think Brexit will be a panacea then you will be in for a big shock when you realise that you have voted in a big liar with no ideas about how to run anything and you would have voted for condemning millions of poor people to years of misery. The road to hell is littered with the relics of numerous misconceived ‘good intentions’.

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Dec 7, 2019 5:50 PM

Another hung Parliament is our only hope and our only opportunity to punish the self-appointed political elite is to vote out the incumbent, whatever party they represent and replace them with the candidate most likely to beat them, whatever party they represent.
#VoteTheBumsOut and let the chips fall where they may.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Dec 7, 2019 8:51 PM

I’m confused. What do you think a hung parliament will achieve?

Basher
Basher
Dec 7, 2019 4:44 PM

Can’t agree at all that establishment now favours Corbyn. One simple subject reveals this to be false – Antisemitism. For two months over the summer, AS smears all but disappeared. Why? Anyway, they are back, turbo charged. Fuck the right wing rags, but if Corbyn was the chosen winner, then Guardian and BBC would not keep repeating these AS smears. Full stop. ‘Chief’ Rabbi given free reign on TV and papers, despite the fact that he only speaks for 56% of British Jews, and even then its unclear on his authority to speak on behalf of those 56%. The media could easily make clear that this guy, his position as ‘chief’ Rabbi, is a govt installed position and has been for centuries – designed to make Jews more loyal to the state. They could explain that there is no ‘Jewish community’. The fact that I saw David Graeber on twitter… Read more »

Maggie
Maggie
Dec 7, 2019 7:51 PM
Reply to  Basher

The reason the AS league went quiet during the summer is because they were all on their jollies, most probably in Israel. Since the Summer they have realised that their lies and smears have missed the target, and backfired badly thanks to all Bojo’s faux pas. So they have had to regroup, and bring out their biggest guns… This is when Mirvis and Welby cooked up the new two pronged attack… Mirvis bleated ‘We have learned the hard way that speaking out means that we will be demonised by faceless social-media trolls.. and accused of being partisan.. or acting in bad faith.. by those who still think of this as an orchestrated political smear’. (So there we have it.. the truth of the matter – partisan, bad faith and an orchestrated political smear.) As it turns out, he was only half-right: the majority of Corbynistas have dismissed him… but many… Read more »

Andy
Andy
Dec 7, 2019 11:34 PM
Reply to  Maggie

The BBC did its bit by doing a r4 profile of the racist rabbi. Not surprisingly, a hagiography constantly repeating how good and trustworthy he was. I’m sure it was a coincidence that it was only a couple of days after his attack and during an election campaign.

Capricornia Man
Capricornia Man
Dec 8, 2019 12:08 AM
Reply to  Andy

The state broadcasters in the UK and Australia have thrown journalistic ethics to the winds in their relentless weaponising of the ‘anti-Semitism’ lie against Labour and Corbyn. As a result, former supporters of these ‘news outlets’ have understandably become their permanent enemies.

bevin
bevin
Dec 7, 2019 4:38 PM

The first reason for voting Labour is that, by doing so, you are helping to put a nail in the coffin of the mainstream media. Both the Press and the BBC have gone overboard in their campaigns to smear Corbyn and demonstrate that they still decide who governs. If Corbyn loses it will be said, openly, that it was because of the success in confusing opposition to Israeli fascism with anti-semitism. Confidentially the sponsors of the nonsense will tell themselves that their success proves that no lie, if repeated often enough, cannot be imposed on the population. A vote for Corbyn will be a vote against unalloyed capitalist domination of the media. It will even be a mandate to Labour to put an end to the current regime at the BBC and to break up the media monopolies, which are rapidly turning into a real monopoly in which all the… Read more »

Vexarb
Vexarb
Dec 7, 2019 5:24 PM
Reply to  bevin

Bevin: ““They are all the same” is currently a reactionary slogan. Those promoting it are working for the Tories, including the Blairites.”

Funny you should say that; I just read it on the BLiar’s Beeb: “Finally… the country remains deeply polarised and the voters profoundly sceptical of not just the politicians but the whole political system.”

Vexarb
Vexarb
Dec 7, 2019 5:25 PM
Reply to  Vexarb
Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Dec 7, 2019 9:11 PM
Reply to  bevin

Elect Corbyn, demand that the Labour manifesto be implemented, be ready to take action to ensure that it is not thwarted by the Establishment, the military, the City, the Civil Service and the Monarchy. I notice that you do not include “by the EU” in your list of thwarters. I live in Canada. Oh FFS. So you are just a spectator then. You do not say whether you are a UK citizen or not, or whether you have a vote in this election. (I presume not?). I live in Canada. And so do many of those posting here. Many others live in the United States. But this is our election too. We know that if Corbyn wins there will be an enormous increase in the energy behind the Medicare for All campaign in the US. And that, if Corbyn is Prime Minister Bernie is very likely to be running for… Read more »

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 8, 2019 1:09 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

Bevin has a brain. You …the jury is out.

John Thatcher
John Thatcher
Dec 7, 2019 11:56 PM
Reply to  bevin

Excellent post bevin,and a grounded repost to what is said above the line,which carried for me more than a hint of right wing libertarianism,and rather juvenile anarchism.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 8, 2019 1:07 AM
Reply to  bevin

Yes Bevin. I do live here. At thr centre of the empire.

That is why the 35 odd million who might vote here makes it the most important election ever.

Pompeo said it a few months ago.

BigB
BigB
Dec 8, 2019 12:07 PM
Reply to  bevin

Sorry: Sanders is a sheepdog socialist …corralling naive socialist lambs for the corporate slaughter. To which you seem fanatically committed. I know none of you will: but check out who was behind Bernie’s ‘Big Organisation’ and what they did next. If you scratch the surface: it is really not too hard to see where the money and impetus is coming from. But that is “beneath me” to say. Or according to Corbyn’s diktat: it is actually ‘antisemitic’ of me to say. Or mention the shadow sovereign Voldemort: “he who shall not be named”. Why are you so scared of exposing ‘Big Organisation’ for what it is? Is it because the veneer of ‘socialism’ becomes so thin? So that the neoliberal finance-capital cognitive influence machine workings become visible through the transparency? And the dark money nexus of the ‘non-profit industrial complex’ is clear for all to see? Bernie is a sheepdog.… Read more »

Chris Rogers
Chris Rogers
Dec 8, 2019 1:25 PM
Reply to  bevin

Bevin, Whilst I’m aware you don’t agree with the general thrust of this article, namely that Corbyn has been captured, the fact remains there is much to concern us about JC, whilst acknowledging the issues he has with the vipers in the PLP nest, which are legion. My own critiques are simple, a lack of support for those hounded out of the Party on charges of faux Antisemitism, a lack of verbal support for Assange and a compromise on Open Selection, that made it all but impossible for members to rid themselves of said vipers in the PLP ranks – JC promised a grass roots revolution and a Party driven by its grass roots – thus far, after more than 4 years he’s failed to deliver. I’m also none too happy about the Party’s post September Brexit stance, which seems suicidal to me given how poorly its gone down with… Read more »

lundiel
lundiel
Dec 7, 2019 3:36 PM

Re; Labour as a safe alternative. Anyone else noticed the media’s changing attitude towards John McDonnell? A couple of years ago he was a deranged Marxist, now he’s treated like a kindly uncle.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 7, 2019 10:50 PM
Reply to  lundiel

He will be the Chancellor.
Then he will be leader.

bevin
bevin
Dec 7, 2019 3:02 PM

You miss the point about Russian involvement. The Russians who are and have been backing Johnson and Toryism are anti-Putin oligarchs, desperately flinging their ill gotten gains into the cause of Yeltsin Restoration. They are the ‘westernisers’, the Fifth Columnists longing for a globalised economy in which they can parlay their control of Russia’s resources into membership of the international ruling class which owns Washington DC. It is they who have insisted on Tory governments taking the lead in sanctioning and slandering the Russian government. They are the people who are behind the successive “KGB killings” which reached their farcical apotheosis in the Skripal affair. You appear to be wilfully confusing the Russian origins (cf Khodorkovsky) of the Russophobic anti-Putin campaign, a campaign aimed at defending US imperial hegemony, with the targets of that campaign, which has the object of reducing the Russian people to penury in order to provoke… Read more »

Willem
Willem
Dec 7, 2019 2:04 PM

Classic: ‘If voting changed anything, they’d make it illegal. – Emma Goldman

And another classic: George Carlin: why I don’t vote: https://www.icomedytv.com/content/george-carlin-on-voting-transcript

Personally, a hard Brexit could be disastrous for people who live in EU countries like NL. When all the bankers and other rich expats move from London to Amsterdam, house prices will go through the roof, making it even harder for the average citizen to make ends meet. But politicians will rejoice (as they already do here), because all those jobs and institutions are ‘great’ for our ‘economy’!

I cannot further comment on this issue as this is not my election (I am Dutch), it’s yours. Good luck!

Estaugh
Estaugh
Dec 7, 2019 3:19 PM
Reply to  Willem

Any which way, we are in for a sh*t sandwich, but without the bread.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 7, 2019 12:57 PM

In a quandary folks. Don’t know what to shoot at and kill – metaphorically. The Message or the Messenger? Hmm – if the message could be a bit clearer it would be easier. Is Off-G saying : 1. vote Labour? 2. Don’t vote Tory? 3. vote Tory? 4. ‘Fuck you all, don’t vote – voting is shite , where’s my fucking Hard brexit’? Care to confirm Off-G?? Hmm….the message or the messenger… eneey meeny miney mo… maybe both! I can’t make up my mind – hungry, no breakfast, some idiots have decided locals xmas lunch should be early this afternoon – so am starving myself till then – don’t know if that can be used as an allegory…heads a bit woozy … let you peeps know later if not too boozy! ———- Just a quick debunk of the OffG supposition that the Establishment is suddenly supporting ‘their’ man Corbyn. https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-12-04-how-the-uk-military-and-intelligence-establishment-is-working-to-stop-jeremy-corbyn-from-becoming-prime-minister… Read more »

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Dec 7, 2019 9:17 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

From the article:

In the end, just to clarify – before we’re inevitably accused of being “anti-Labour” (since binary thinking is the mode du jour) – We do agree Labour are probably the only choice. Generally speaking, things are more likely to improve with them in charge. They, at least, have a few ideas and some kind of desire to at least try and change things for ordinary people.

I take that as a half-hearted recommendation to vote Labour. (Which I will ignore, as my vote would not help them win in this constituency, even if I wanted them to).

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 8, 2019 1:13 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

Yup thoroughly half hearted at best.

Doesn’t answer my question does it?

nottheonly1
nottheonly1
Dec 7, 2019 12:01 PM

Imagining the show master announcing “The 2019 UK General Elections”
(with lots of effects, glitter and stars) with this election’s competing teams.

Somehow, this spectacle appears to be of the same significance as a soccer
game, a boxing match with five contenders, or the races at Escot. While this
is not about who wears the most outlandish outfit, but the most ‘promising’
solutions to problems these twats created in the first place.

The one aspect these spectacles have in common is that they are often rigged.
Quite often at that.

nottheonly1
nottheonly1
Dec 7, 2019 12:09 PM
Reply to  nottheonly1

Just reading this headline:
Leaked NHS documents presented by Corbyn are linked to Russian hackers

It’s going to be very entertaining – if that is the correct word.

Michael McNulty
Michael McNulty
Dec 7, 2019 12:01 PM

I just cannot stand the anti-democratic authoritarian Swinson who lies through every breath. I hope her constituents get rid of her. Thinking a minority can give her enough votes to overturn a majority is the reasoning of a simpleton but yet she does it. Or maybe she believes in magic and only has to wish it three times every night before bed to make it happen?

I think the elite plan to steal the election for the Tories but I’m fairly confident the numbers turning out for Corbyn will make the results too big to rig.

universal
universal
Dec 7, 2019 11:58 AM

“why we aren’t running daily campaign updates on this”

You’re also not reporting on the near-miss of rocks hurling towards Earth. Their number has been on the increase lately. I suspect, a tax will be collected soon to ‘protect’ us from these rocks.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Dec 7, 2019 9:18 PM
Reply to  universal

Let’s send Greta to sea in a yacht again. That should “save the planet”.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Dec 7, 2019 11:02 AM

People need to recalibrate expectations. A man who loves nothing more than pottering around his allotment simply does not have the power, or party support to seriously thwart the engine of Britains post-war political identity (the financial needs of the City of London) or the powerful corporate and banking entities that call the shots in the EU. I mean wake the fuck up: the current parliamentary system virtually guarantees that any shiny-eyed idealism must be sacrficed in order to play the game of party politics. The 2008 crash and decade of austerity that followed it has merely magnified these basic dynamics. In essence the best mean-income families can hope for is a little bit of push back against the venal system that rewards a tiny minority at the expense of everyone else, and the only politician committed to such ideology is Corbyn. Personally it amazes me that he doesn’t just… Read more »

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 7, 2019 1:05 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

Gaslighting bollocks.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Dec 7, 2019 1:08 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

Sorry i didn’t get past a man who likes pottering about his allotment.

A bit light headed at moment – see my latestt post above. No offence meant.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Dec 7, 2019 3:57 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

None taken – the charge against Corbyn is that he has not single-handedly defeated the British establishment: the banks, the corporations, the military, and of course right wing opponents in the House of Commons complicit with Britains horrible lurch toward extreme wealth inequality. And that’s before we get to so-called colleagues labelling him ‘a fucking antisemite and a racist’ or the long smear campaign conducted by Britains fetid media: especially the usual gang of apartheid apologists at the Guardian. Support for Corbyn has been limp across some of the alternative media. OK he’s not the messiah, far from it, but take him out of the equation and what alternative does that actually leave in the political mainstream? By the way, Off-G is wrong to underestimate the arrival of fascism (IMO) – the form of corporate facism that evolved from neoliberalism has racked up a fair few casualities through illegal wars… Read more »