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DISCUSS: Iran Admit to Shooting Down Ukrainian Passenger Flight

(Photo by Akbar TAVAKOLI / IRNA / AFP)

Earlier today, President Rouhanie of Iran formally admitted that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps had shot down the Ukrainian passenger jet leaving Tehran a few days ago.

Speculation has been rampant, but here are the alleged facts of the case, at this time:

  • In the early hours of the 8th January, Iran launched missiles at two US-occupied bases in Iraq. This was done in retaliation for the death of General Qassem Soleimani.
  • Ukraine Airlines flight PS 752 departed Tehran airport on 8th January. Three minutes later it crashed. There were 176 passengers/crew on board. Mostly Iranians, Ukrainians and Canadians.
  • Within hours, Western media were quoting anonymous “Iraqi intelligence officials” that Iran had shot the plane down “likely by accident”.
  • The US State Dept, and their proxy NGOs, echoed this theory. A great rundown of who said what and when can be found on Moon of Alabama.
  • Despite at first denying these accusations, the Iranian government has since admitted to “accidentally” downing the plane. Their statement can be read here (or here in the original Farsi).
  • Iran claim the missiles were launched by an individual who was out of radio contact with his commander and “panicked” upon seeing the fast-moving object on radar.
  • Response to the admission has come from many world leaders. Justin Trudeau called for “further investigation”, Vladimir Zelensky demanded Iran take “full responsibility”, whilst Boris Johnson called it “an important first step”. The US has already announced further sanctions.
  • Reports are already coming in of “unrest” and “protests” in the wake of this admission. The Guardian and Newsweek, among others, claiming young people especially are tired of the leadership demanding “resignations and prosecutions” (we are, as yet unable to confirm these protests took place).

So what does this mean for the region as a whole?

Will this – as Boris Johnson said – be “first step to de-escalation” in the region? Will there be extensive protests? Will Iraq now rescind their demand the US leave their country?

As always, discuss below.

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Doctortrinate
Doctortrinate
Jan 13, 2020 10:17 PM

so much black ‘n’ charred wreckage…..and of what little colour remains, amongst the twisted debris, a Book named “Silly Stories” , of nonsense tails, incredible, as was how the seated souls could be retrieved so together quickly – especially when the seats themselves (all 170 ?) seem to have flown from existence.

Jen
Jen
Jan 12, 2020 10:26 PM

Well, well, Matt the Venezuelan university student in Canada suddenly decides to swing the conversation on this comments thread towards a comparison of Flight PS752 with the old Flight MH17.

Doesn’t he have a little respect for those Iranians and Canadians (many of whom must have been of Iranian background) trying to get back to Canada (where that UIA flight might have continued after a stopover in Kiev; UIA connects to Toronto and New York City) to be back at school at the University of Toronto, the entire campus of which is part of a federal Canadian electorate represented by the current Deputy Prime Minister (Chrystia Freeland), and hit the books?

Thom
Thom
Jan 12, 2020 7:25 PM

Iran may have admitted shooting down the plane but it remains a mystery how they could have made such an (apparently) basic error on their home territory, albeit under very fraught conditions. It also odd how quickly the not-very-plausible ‘demonstrations’ in Teheran sprang up in the aftermath – as if the shooting-down or something like it had been expected in advance. Another suspicious element to this is the Ukraine connection – another target for US regime change.

milosevic
milosevic
Jan 15, 2020 12:21 PM
Reply to  Thom

as if the shooting-down or something like it had been expected in advance

— which would also explain the abundance of videos of the event. but maybe there’s lots of people in the Tehran suburbs filming the dark sky every night, just for the fun of it.

espartaco
espartaco
Jan 12, 2020 2:41 PM

These theocratic cretins and liars could not hold their lies any longer… WELL DONE PRESIDENT TRUMP… WELL DONE AMERICA…!!!

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 8:58 PM
Reply to  espartaco

No Yankee killer need ever wipe his own fundament anymore. Nor bother wiping the blood and gore off its paws. Expectardo will lick both clean-for nothing but the sheer pleasure of it.

milosevic
milosevic
Jan 15, 2020 12:17 PM

to enthusiastically ass-lick the powerful, and actually enjoy it, is one of the primary qualifications for disinfo shills. it makes up for the pay being less than spectacular.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Jan 12, 2020 1:21 PM

There is nothing more to discuss of what brought the aircraft down.

It is declared exactly by the Air Defence Commander – in pretty full detail at a press conference where he also took questions.

Here is a full translation by Iran Front Page site.

https://ifpnews.com/irgc-releases-details-of-accidental-downing-of-ukrainian-plane/

Pretty comprehensive and within 48 hours of the event, under war time conditions.

Vivian J
Vivian J
Jan 12, 2020 12:12 PM

Who the hell knows what to believe? Perhaps the Iranian govt is part of a deeper cabal and shot the plane down on purpose? It does after all have a sophisticated and well organised military and accidentally shooting down a passenger jet shortly after leaving its own main airport would seem beyond all likelihood.

Can we be sure that Soleimani is dead given that the ‘proof’ of his demise rests on photographs showing two different rings on different hands?

Deception runs very deep in this world and do we really know who is pulling the strings of these public/political actors we see (on all sides)? One thing for sure is that the string pullers thrive on chaos and confusion and we are seeing no shortage of that.

Sorry for asking a lot of questions and answering none!

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 12, 2020 12:03 PM

Trump: “It Was Flying in a Pretty Rough Neighborhood”

And we have the obvious “hiding of the smile” hoax signal.

GEOFF
GEOFF
Jan 12, 2020 11:04 AM

This from the ‘moon of Alabama :After the USS Vincennes in 1988 had shot down Iran Air Flight 655 and killed 290 people, including many children, the U.S. government denied any culpability. George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time, commented: “I will never apologize for the United States – I don’t care what the facts are… I’m not an apologize-for-America kind of guy.” Despite its “error” the crew was given medals and the captain was even awarded a Legion of Merit “for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer

ZigZagWanderer
ZigZagWanderer
Jan 12, 2020 9:49 PM
Reply to  GEOFF

The Weapons Officer also got a Legion of Merit medal . Other senior officers who were at the same location that day called the Vincennes an aggressive Robo Cruiser that was likely responsible for the skirmish with 7 small Iranian vessels that led to the airliner shootdown.

This from the Wapo April 1990 showing a bit of editorial freedom ( remember that ) about the Vincennes . https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1990/04/23/2-vincennes-officers-get-medals/cf383f02-05ce-435b-9086-5d61de569ed8/

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 12, 2020 10:31 AM

No one remember the big 9/11 plane hoax?

No one remember the ludicrous “wreckage” we are shown of all four planes and the big burst of flame we see at the Pentagon? No one remember the Naudet brothers just happening to catch Flight 11 melting into the North tower?

Please explain the “wreckage” shown at the link below of this UIA plane (https://emerging-europe.com/news/ukraine-refuses-to-rule-out-foul-play-following-uia-crash-in-iran/).

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/07/middleeast/plane-crash-iran-intl-hnk/index.html

If you think that CNN just put up any old wreckage can you please post a link to anything that looks convincingly like the plane in the image shown in the first link. I don’t think the image that goes with the article is particularly convincing – nor does it seem to match the CNN image above – and I can’t find any other image that is either. If you think the plane that crashed looked different from the one shown at the first link can you point me to an image of it.

As Dutch former high finance operative, Ronald Bernard, says: at the top they’re all in it together.

Rouhani (and his mates) and North America, the Ukraine and Canada (at least) have colluded in the assassination of Soleimani and in the Ukrainian plane hoax just as Israel, Saudi Arabia, the UK, Australia, Canada, Pakistan and various other nations colluded with the US in 9/11, the massive Full-Scale Anti-Terrorist exercise pushed out as a real event where the only major realities of the day were damage to and destruction of buildings.

Admin1
Admin
Admin1
Jan 12, 2020 11:35 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Please don’t yet again get sidetracked into 9/11. Discuss this case as a potential hoax if you want, but no more thread hijacking please.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 12, 2020 12:01 PM
Reply to  Admin1

Yes, I know I go on about 9/11 but can you not see the significance of the similarities here? This is not a thread hijack, it’s important to identify similarities between events, no?

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Jan 12, 2020 3:05 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Here we go again, “Psyops Persona #149” is spouting utter nonsense again, in an attempt to discredit those who expose genuine false flags.
You’ve been exposed once again “Flaxgirl”, I guess they’ll be terminating your contract soon.

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins
Jan 14, 2020 8:01 AM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

🙂

milosevic
milosevic
Jan 15, 2020 12:14 PM
Reply to  Tim Jenkins

look, one sock-puppet persona smiley-faces a denouncement of another. it’s almost like they’re working for the same employer.

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
Jan 12, 2020 10:31 AM

As usual, when the west murder 500,000, there are no politicians ‘taking responsibility’, but when Iran murders less than 200, reprisals and sanctions are ‘justified’.

There has never been a clearer case of racist double standards about warfare and the sooner the UK, US and the like are nuked with 500,000 dead each to teach them what 500,000 dead means, the better.

I am now permanently tuned out from anything any US or UK leader says until they take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for their never-ending decades-long murdering across the globe.

In my book, until they do, every single UK and US MP, Congressperson and Senator is ACCEPTABLE COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

This does not make me a traitor, it makes me free of hypocritical, self-righteous genocidal double standards in my life.

GEOFF
GEOFF
Jan 12, 2020 11:12 AM
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

I agree

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 4:31 PM
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

the sooner the UK, US and the like are nuked with 500,000 dead each to teach them what 500,000 dead means, the better.

You seem to be a very violently angry individual to suggest this, and I am surprised that this comment doesn’t break the community guidelines here. I remember reading some of your comments a while back. They almost always involve some extremely violent statement. Last time I read one of your comments, you listed some major American cities that should be bombed.

It’s one thing to make a violent comment once or twice, but to do so repeatedly suggests a mental health issue. Again, I’m sure the Admin(s) here have noticed your repeat calls for violence, but strangely have done nothing…

But the most shocking thing is that your comments always get massively upvoted, with zero downvotes. The sole downvote comes from yours truly. That means the people here also advocate violence.

Willem
Willem
Jan 12, 2020 6:05 PM
Reply to  Matt

(assuming that you are clueless)

Rhyss Jagger just shows the meaning of the tolerance paradox. You cannot be tolerant to the intolerant. That is you cannot be tolerant towards people who kill 500000 and get away with that, while at the same these same people are intolerant towards people who admittedly made a mistake: a mistake that was provoked by the same intolerant people.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:20 PM
Reply to  Willem

(assuming that you are clueless) You cannot be tolerant to the intolerant. That is you cannot be tolerant towards people who kill 500000 and get away with that,

Opening your comment with an insult, while being so incorrect, is not exactly smart.

The violent commentator, “Rhyss Jagger”, was referring to 500,000 innocent people. He wasn’t just talking about members of the government or military.

(assuming that you can read)

There has never been a clearer case of racist double standards about warfare and the sooner the UK, US and the like are nuked with 500,000 dead each to teach them what 500,000 dead means, the better.

Your buddy has also made other comments calling for major American cities to be bombed i.e. innocent Americans dying. He clearly hates regular Americans, not just the elites, and routinely advocates for their deaths.

Should I report his violent comments to the relevant authorities? He’s promoting terrorism against innocent people, with the full acceptance by these websites administrators. I’ll have to compile a list of these violent comments and report them. It’s the right thing to do.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jan 13, 2020 10:24 AM
Reply to  Matt

I’ll have to compile a list of [Rhys Jagger’s] violent comments and report them.

The correct remedy rather than putting it on the Off-Guardian. However, be advised that, if you do, I would be happy to do what I can to [help] organise or contribute to finding an effective defence [team] and funding for it, should any legal proceedings against either party arise from your attempts.

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins
Jan 14, 2020 6:41 AM
Reply to  Matt

Matt: Assuming that you are legally clueless, or I am, which “relevant Authority” would that be and how would you/they distinguish sarcasm & under whose jurisdiction ? Are you psychic ? Yer’ talking out of yer’ buttocks 🙂
Pure hot air . . .

Personally, I reckon if some Iraqi or Iranian were to ‘top’ Colin Powell, Tony Blair or George Bush, abroad on holiday, as a belated quid pro quo, they would likely be wholly justified & acquitted in many nation’s courts of law and publicly celebrated by more than half the Western World, such is the public disgust, Matt: where have you been hiding yourself, all these years? You certainly begin to sound clueless in every sense & every department, not least regarding electronics and the Malaysian & my independent analysis of the flight recordings, which more than adequately demonstrated TAMPERING !!! As has been shown here in OffG’s pages, in an excellent article >>> learn to search !

Now all you have to discern is, am I being sarcastic to a pig ignorant tosspot provocative troll, wholly masking his real identity & entity or being a tosser, worthy of reporting to some secret agency 🙂 who know me well since birth !
Either way, it was always clear to the responsible politicians that the Iraqi WMD’s was pure ‘curveball’ fabricated propaganda to justify the elite’s ‘New Pearl Harbour’ and that WMD’s never existed, a proven fact. Check with Chilcot. Just like it was obvious & PROVEN, with WITNESSES, that NATZO Agents had illegally seized control of the the Black Boxes from MH17, in order to tamper with History & public perceptions! So, given that FUKUS went to war in Iraq on the basis of a known lie, just because Saddam wanted to quit using & working for the Yankee Dollar, the only question that really remains open for the enquiring mind, still capable of critical thinking is, >>> have you been drinking too much Rum & Coca-Cola and prostituted yourself, like those famous thieving Yankee sisters, when in reality the song was always written by ‘Lord Invader’ ? ‘Woteva’ .. You are clearly clueless regarding the MH17 flight recordings & electronics & international Law, Matt, that much is unequivocally & irrefutably true. I’m not even gonna’ bother to post the link, coz’ I am 100% sure that you are shilling for a dime and would never even open the link or study the independent screen analysis of the voice recorders from MH17: also, I’m 100% sure that you don’t know how to distinguish the tampering, so, it would be pointless, see? Tampering was evidenced, but don’t let that bother you, lol, ‘Carry on Shilling’ starring Matt Black & White Minstrels.
Do you still collect Gollywogs, too ?

ZigZagWanderer
ZigZagWanderer
Jan 13, 2020 12:03 AM
Reply to  Matt

That means the people here also advocate violence.” …. No it doesn’t.

If you had to pull the remains of your kids decapitated torso out of a tree one morning or perhaps watch your mother starve to death in front of you what would you do ?

Rhys is , quite correctly , pointing out that the perpetrators of these war crimes would change their behaviour if they experienced just a fraction of the extreme violence they inflict on others many thousands of miles away.

The perps filling their pockets from almost two decades of savage imperialism love people like you. You guarantee their big fat pensions. You don’t get angry.

George Mc
George Mc
Jan 14, 2020 7:18 AM
Reply to  Matt

You seem to be a very violently angry individual…

Anyone who is not violently angry at this point has understood nothing.

Edwige
Edwige
Jan 12, 2020 8:33 AM

Your military shoot down one of your airliners by mistake? Accepting that narrative for a moment (and I understand why people don’t) here’s what a master of shameless propaganda does: blame an exploding fuel tank, a supposed known technical fault with the plane even though not one of the planes before or since has crashed for that reason; tell 250+ eyewitnesses that the missile they say going up to the plane was in fact the nose falling off the plane (hey, who knows up from down?); ‘lose’ the footage taken of the incident; alter the physical evidence; get controlled TV programmes like ‘Air Crash Investigation’ to make ‘documentaries’ reinforcing your manufactured narrative.

Read Jack Cashill on how the Clintons wrote that particular playbook a quarter of a century ago.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 12, 2020 5:38 PM
Reply to  Edwige

TWA800 was not shot down. They have pretty much the whole plane reconstructed in a hangar. It would be patently obvious that it had been downed by a missile. The evidence simply wasn’t there.

Gall
Gall
Jan 12, 2020 8:35 PM

The fact that “pretty much the whole plane reconstructed in a hangar” doesn’t prove it wasn’t hit by a missile, Sherlock.

Gall
Gall
Jan 12, 2020 11:22 PM
Reply to  Gall

Chicken. I see you down voted me but never countered my response. How brave.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 13, 2020 8:48 AM
Reply to  Gall

It absolutely does. It is impossible to hide evidence of a missile detonation

Gall
Gall
Jan 12, 2020 8:27 AM

It would be interesting to see what was recorded on the CVR and FDR. Especially the latter since it would give the actual flight path of the plane in question and show that it may have deviated from its approved flightpath which is probably why they i.e. Ukraine wants it so badly. I see another MH 17 in the making.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 4:33 PM
Reply to  Gall

it may have deviated from its approved flightpath which is probably why they i.e. Ukraine wants it so badly. I see another MH 17 in the making.

This fake news was debunked years ago. The so-called “strange” flight route deviation was very, very minor and occurred due to the weather conditions at the time. Even without the change, MH17 would still have flown roughly the same path i.e. over the conflict zone.

I am always surprised at how “alt-media” readers continue to believe long-debunked lies by Russia. I thought you guys were “open-minded critical thinkers”?

Gall
Gall
Jan 12, 2020 8:31 PM
Reply to  Matt

Oh I see you get your “information” from Whales-o-pedia. I guess actual evidence that is contrary to your limited mind set can be disregarded as “fake news’ or “conspiracy theory”.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:23 PM
Reply to  Gall

Instead of theorizing where I get my information from and trying to attack the source (fallacy), try actually addressing what I’ve said:

Was the flight route deviation by MH17 “strange” or was there an actual reason for it, like weather conditions?

If the route was not changed, would MH17 still have flown over the conflict zone?

Gall
Gall
Jan 12, 2020 11:20 PM
Reply to  Matt

Your so called “response” is a study in sophistry since the aircraft would have been warned by ATC to divert its course and would have not been allowed anywhere near a known conflict zone.

Also weather conditions unless they are extreme like for instance a hurricane or say a typhoon are very poor excuses for changing course.

In other words you are totally FOS.

Willem
Willem
Jan 12, 2020 8:09 AM

I think this was an incalculated risk by the US military. Remember the US military said they would destroy 52 targets in Iran the moment Iran would decide to retaliate the death of Soleimani?

That probably led to the Iranians being on high alert for air strikes and the US military incalculated this.

No one could know if human error would occur, and if it would occur, which airplane would be hit, but the threat of air strikes surely raised the chances of shooting down by accident a plane with passengers by the Iranians.

In terms of the culprit, I would suggest one should look at the primal cause. That is not the Iranian soldier who by accident pushed the button, but the US military who provoked someone in the Iranian army to push the button.

In terms of what we see now in the press together with the ‘mass demonstrations’ in Iran (funded?), it’s pretty clear that the US military played their game well (for completeness, this game appals me but that does not mean that I can’t see what game they played).

As noted in other threads, for those who explain everything by the hubris of the US military or US intelligence: Think again. It’s you who is being fooled.

Protect
Protect
Jan 12, 2020 2:41 AM

Sabotage can take many shapes and forms. Remember when the Syrian army was fooled into shooting down a Russian surveillance aircraft with 15 people onboard?
Those imposing punitive santions and continually threatening a desstructive war must definitely be held responsible for the extreme conditions they have created.

Charlotte Russe
Charlotte Russe
Jan 12, 2020 1:40 AM

The conditional word “if” often is used to begin describing the most horrific events. If they hadn’t been driving the night the other car careened into their lane; if they didn’t go into that store shortly before the robbery; if they didn’t go sailing during an awful storm; if Trump didn’t order the assassination of General Soleimani 176 innocent civilians would still be alive; and if all imperialist wars would stop collateral murder would also end.

An Iranian Officer mistook the plane for a hostile missile and made the “bad decision” to open fire. He said he “wished” he “was dead” when he learned about the downing of the aircraft. There were 82 Iranians aboard the Boeing Jet.

Most on the plane were graduate students from Canada. I was not aware that Canada is home to a large Iranian diaspora, with some 210,000 citizens of Iranian descent.

“The country is also a popular destination for Iranian graduate and postdoctoral students to study and conduct research abroad, which is why many students were on the flight, returning to university following the winter break.

There is also no direct flight between Canada and Iran, and the Ukraine International Airlines flight from Tehran to Kiev and then to Toronto is popular because it is one of the most affordable options for the journey.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51053220

KneelB4Zod!
KneelB4Zod!
Jan 12, 2020 1:13 AM

Not mentioned before – and it is another reason why I still consider that the incident is not just human error but sabotage: In 6 months embargo on weapon sales to Iran will expire and the country will be able to buy S-400, Iskanders or fighter jets. Quite good reason to awake sleeping agent…

Philpot
Philpot
Jan 12, 2020 12:45 AM

Are the Integrity Initiative hard at work on here?

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 3:03 AM
Reply to  Philpot

Gasp! A single user criticizing Iran and Russia is evidence that there’s a big shilling operation on this website. Such wonderful thinking!

Yes, I am part of the Integrity Initiative. Elliot Higgins instructed me to come here. I’m paid good money by Soros.

Did I get all the standard boogeymen in that line?

Whoops, forgot one: I’m a CIA agent.

There, now the whole gang’s here!

In all seriousness, just because someone is critical of Russia, does not mean they are a shill.

Stonky
Stonky
Jan 12, 2020 6:39 AM
Reply to  Matt

I’ve been following your discussion with interest Matt. Have a question for you. In your view is Bellingcat a shill, or not?

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Jan 12, 2020 3:19 PM
Reply to  Matt

Your lot have consistently tried to take this website offline, but haven’t succeeded. So now a few of you disinfo agents turn up and try and disrupt the discussion. You’re so obvious and doomed to fail.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 4:36 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Your lot have consistently tried to take this website offline

Frank, I strongly believe that you’re suffering from either schizophrenia or psychosis. Do you have any evidence that I’ve tried to “take this website offline”?

I’ll await your detailed evidence. Yawn.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:12 PM
Reply to  Matt

He typed ‘your lot’, not ‘you’. I suspect you suffer from Multiple Personality Disorder, and they’re all shits.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:25 PM

richard, if he said “your lot”, then he’s claiming I’m part of some group of people trying to take down this irrelevant, unknown website. If that’s the case, where is his proof?

I’ll await your detailed evidence. yawn.

Matt
Matt
Jan 11, 2020 10:39 PM

Hey guys, been a few months since I’ve posted here.

I’m glad Iran admit what happened. It shows that they are far more honourable than the Russians.

Truth be told, I was deeply afraid that a repeat of MH17 would happen, in which Russia’s proxies in Eastern Ukraine accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK, mistaking it for a Ukrainian fighter jet. Russia, to this day, refuses to admit what happened. It concocted multiple contradictory conspiracy theories, pinning the blame on a Ukrainian SU-25 (remember that narrative?), a BUK shot by the Ukrainian army, the CIA, “strange” flight route deviations (they were perfectly normal), etc. It then mounted an enormous propaganda campaign to smear and discredit the JIT investigators, so as to diminish their findings of a BUK smuggled from Russia taking down MH17. The pain and suffering the Russian psychopaths have caused by this must be immense for the families of the victims. Even this website continues to repeat Russia’s lies, despite them being debunked.

But that didn’t happen this time.

Initially, it did look to be a repeat of MH17, with Iran hotly denying that it shot down the plane and calling such accusations “psychological warfare”. But someone made the decision to come clean. Perhaps it was the religious piety, but the Iranian government felt guilty. That says much of what kind of government is running Russia.

I also have some thoughts over so-called “anti-imperialists” on social media criticizing those who mock them for believing that Iran didn’t shoot it down. These anti-imperialists make the argument that they were just being skeptical of any and all arguments until more evidence came forward, and that anyone who discourages such “skeptical” thinking is a deep state loser.

Well, that logic is faulty. And this can be proven easily with a simple question: if Iran had denied that it shot down the plane and blamed it on the U.S., who would the anti-imperialists believe? No one is deluded to believe, even for a moment, that the anti-imperialists would have said: “Oh, after looking at both claims and all the evidence, it looks like Iran is lying and America telling the truth”. Nope. What would have happened is simple: the same way the anti-imperialists responded to the MH17 shoot down, by falling for every one of Russia’s various lies and even passionately defending them! The only difference is that Iran admit its wrongdoing while Russia didn’t. That’s why you are criticized for not initially believing Iran shot down the place. Not because you shouldn’t be “skeptical”, but because you would have never believed America’s claims over Iran’s, had Iran blamed the U.S.

David Macilwain
David Macilwain
Jan 11, 2020 11:02 PM
Reply to  Matt

Your post merely adds to the feeling something very very odd has gone on here, as the resonances with the MH17 atrocity are uncanny. If the Ukrainian army had come out and admitted, in only two days, that their unit from Lviv had accidentally hit MH17 instead of the plane Putin was allegedly travelling in over the same area, then things may have been very different. But of course they didn’t, and didn’t need to, as fighter jets had done the job for them anyway. On the other hand, had the Separatists trying to defend the population from Kiev’s air campaign from fighter jets and military transports accidentally hit MH17 they would have been the first to admit it. Those claiming they were responsible, before Higgins concocted his silly story, admitted that it would have been a “tragic accident” – as Morrison has described this latest crash – but soon started blaming them. Talk of Kiev being partly responsible for allowing MH17 to fly, off course, over an active war zone, also went unheard.

But of course the two events are not the same, and not connected, or are they?

Did the Ukrainian plane have its transponder turned on? Was it the first plane to leave Tehran following the Iranian missile volleys? Would a cruise missile have been launched from Afghanistan towards the firing site in Kermanshah, passing over Tehran? What went on in the control tower of Imam Khomeini airport?
Nothing is clear yet, except “cui bono”.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 12:27 AM

that their unit from Lviv had accidentally hit MH17 instead of the plane Putin was allegedly travelling in over the same area, then things may have been very different.

You just repeated one of the debunked conspiracy theories surrounding MH17, that the Ukrainian army was “aiming for Putin’s plane but shot down MH17”. This conspiracy theory was so mind-bogglingly false that even RT debunked it later. First, Putin’s plane never flew over Ukraine. Second, it was claimed that the size/shape/coloring of MH17 and Putin’s plane were similar. Uh, the BUK radar doesn’t care about what colors are on the plane! There is no way that those on the ground could have mistook the two plans due to similar coloring as that is too far to even notice, not to mention that the radar does not differentiate between colors. Third: why in God’s name would the Ukrainian army openly try and shoot down Putin’s plane, thereby starting a total war with Russia? That’s ludicrous. This is proof that propaganda works.

But of course they didn’t, and didn’t need to, as fighter jets had done the job for them anyway.

The SU-25 theory was debunked a while ago, as SU-25s can not fly as high as MH17 with active weapons engaged. There are also the BUK shrapnel holes in the cockpit, the lack of evidence of an SU-25 in the area, and the BUK fragments found on the ground. One of the main propagators of this theory, the fraudster masquerading as a Spanish guy working as an ATC in Ukraine, was eventually tracked down and exposed as a liar. There are several other fabrications surrounding this conspiracy theory, like that Ukrainian aircraft mechanic who “defected” to Russia one day and was paraded around on the state media claiming he “saw an SU-25 take off and return with its missiles missing” and that he “heard the pilot admit he accidentally shot down a civilian plane”. He was obviously bribed for this lie, as he presented zero evidence. Tragically, the pilot he falsely accused of shooting down MH17 commit suicide a few years later due to mental health issues. But the psychopathic Russian state media used his suicide as proof that he was “guilty”. Absolutely disgusting.

On the other hand, had the Separatists trying to defend the population from Kiev’s air campaign from fighter jets and military transports accidentally hit MH17 they would have been the first to admit it.

Why do you assume that? It’s clear that Russia was embarrassed by what happened and too arrogant to publicly admit that their allies in Eastern Ukraine did this. Hence, the repeat lies.

Those claiming they were responsible, before Higgins concocted his silly story, admitted that it would have been a “tragic accident” – as Morrison has described this latest crash – but soon started blaming them. Talk of Kiev being partly responsible for allowing MH17 to fly, off course, over an active war zone, also went unheard.

It’s a bit unclear what you’re referring to by “but soon started blaming them”. I assume you mean that MH17 was initially referred to as an accident but the West then began to blame the rebels for doing it on purpose? If so, then I haven’t seen any evidence of the West saying the rebels deliberately shot down MH17. The sanctions were introduced because of Russia’s coverup.

Nothing is clear yet, except “cui bono”.

This is the standard line most online “skeptics” always repeat. Funnily enough, it can be applied to any event in history. But that’s not enough to replace evidence. If I drop a glass on my foot and cut myself, can I then point my finger at you, and say that you did this, because you’re my enemy and therefore, you benefit? No. You can’t substitute real evidence with a fallacy like “cui bono”.

Admin1
Admin
Admin1
Jan 12, 2020 12:32 AM
Reply to  Matt

If you post your own debunked conspiracy theories you can’t complain if others do the same.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 2:20 AM
Reply to  Admin1

That’s a wonderful one-liner, Admin.

But that’s all it is.

Just a one-liner.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Jan 12, 2020 3:21 PM
Reply to  Matt

Well let me try this one instead:

Foxtrot Oscar

KneelB4Zod!
KneelB4Zod!
Jan 12, 2020 1:06 AM
Reply to  Matt

You’re a shill, sir. Beside that you just repeat official narrative you also try to hijack the discussion. This is about Iranian incident. Keep your agenda out, please.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 2:20 AM
Reply to  KneelB4Zod!

Yeah, I know, I’m paid by the State Department. /sarcasm

It’s funny. I always get called a shill when I post here, even though I only post every few months, on select articles.

KneelB4Zod!
KneelB4Zod!
Jan 12, 2020 2:30 AM
Reply to  Matt

It’s not funny, it’s fact. I know you for a few hours and I’m sure you’re a shill. And yet again – stop hijacking this discussion. You should be banned already.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 2:50 AM
Reply to  KneelB4Zod!

I know you for a few hours and I’m sure you’re a shill

That’s the thing. I made a single post, comparing and contrasting MH17 with this. Another use responded about MH17, and there we go. That’s not the same as “hijacking”. If that’s the case, I’d repeatedly inject MH17 into the discussion, over and over again. But I made just one comment about it initially and it spawned a thread. If you don’t like it, just ignore it.

And no, I should not be banned because you don’t like me.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 12, 2020 12:34 PM
Reply to  Matt

It’s called ‘seeding’……as you well know.

Gall
Gall
Jan 12, 2020 8:41 PM
Reply to  Matt

I will defend to the death for your right to post completely asinine responses and moronic replies to the death sir.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Jan 12, 2020 3:22 PM
Reply to  Matt

They pay you for being so incompetent? I think your P45 termination is in the post.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:21 PM
Reply to  Matt

‘On select articles’. Says it all, really. You get you orders and do your doody, to the Empire, Truth, Justice and the American Way.

Jack_Garbo
Jack_Garbo
Jan 12, 2020 2:12 AM
Reply to  Matt

1. The Su25 can fly to the altitude of MH17, pilot confirmed. Wikipedia later “edited” out.
2. Witnesses saw 2 “fighter jets” in vicinity of shoot down. BBC ineterview, later deleted
3. One Su25 was “out training” at time of attack.
4. MH17 cockpit pilot-side showed 30mm holes as well as missile shrapnel marks.
5. Ukraine Su25s are equipped with Israeli Python A2A missle, which can easily bring
down a jet liner at 38,000 ft.
6. Any fool who believes the scoundrels from Bellingcat deserves ridicule from even the
Flat Earth lunatics.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 2:26 AM
Reply to  Jack_Garbo

Let’s ignore for a moment the BUK shrapnel found in the crash area.

1. You’re confused. It’s actually the opposite. Wikipedia originally mentioned a service altitude of 7,000 meters before July 17. Then, shortly after July 17 it was changed to 10,000 meters from a Moscow IP address. Later, it was corrected back to 7,000 meters. Sukhoi, the manufacturer of the aircraft, has 7000 meters listed. Yawn.

2. Witnesses are notoriously unreliable to count on when such a controversial event happens. Especially when said event involves stuff happening thousands of meters in the air, where it’s hard to see.

3. OK. So?

4. See 1. Also, those holes are BUK shrapnel holes.

5. See 1.

6. Good job using insults to attack someone. Bellingcat is better than you. Much better.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 12, 2020 8:00 AM
Reply to  Matt

From a Moscow ip address

You don’t need to read any further than that. Even I don’t use my own ip address when checking some stuff.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 4:38 PM
Reply to  lundiel

You should read further than that, because regardless of the i.p address, I proved that “Jack_Garbo” reversed what happened. He thought that the ceiling was decreased, when it was actually increased.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:24 PM
Reply to  Matt

Who ‘found’ the BUK shrapnel? When? Which model of BUK’s shrapnel? Feel free to lie your head off and quote Radio Free Europe to your dead heart’s content.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 12, 2020 4:02 AM
Reply to  Jack_Garbo

The SU25 is a ground attack aircraft, similar to the American A10 warthog. It is incapable of engaging an aircraft at 38,000 ft

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 4:08 AM

They’ll just downvote your post and move on. Their fragile grip on reality means they are unable to admit to being wrong.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:26 PM
Reply to  Matt

Mr. Pot calling the kettles ‘darkish’.

Gall
Gall
Jan 12, 2020 11:25 PM

Seems commenters like Matt when confronted with actual logic opposing their pet KOrNspIaCY Theories down vote and run like scared little girls 🙂

Jack_Garbo
Jack_Garbo
Jan 12, 2020 5:26 AM

The “service” ceiling is stated to be 7,000 m, not the absolute ceiling. Later Su25UBMI was capable of 10,000 m with newer engines. That plus the Python missile and 30 mm cannon make it “possible” to bring down MH17.
https://www.rt.com/news/310039-mh17-israeli-missile-version/
The rebel BUK story doesn’t add up, plus the faked radio messages, fake Bellingcat videos of different units in different locations adds to the conspiracy.
Considering the corruption of the OCSE investigation, the delays and prejudiced outcomes, one cannot discount information that has been omitted, hidden or “edited” to the anti-Russina/pro-Ukrainian line.
Any mention of Bellingcat’s fabrications immediately dismisses any further discussion.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 4:44 PM
Reply to  Jack_Garbo

There’s no record of Ukraine having these upgraded SU-25s or buying the Israeli missiles.

On top of that, the SU-25 story contradicts the statements made by the BUK manufacturer, that it was a BUK. Aren’t contradictory conspiracy theories great?

The rebel BUK story doesn’t add up, plus the faked radio messages, fake Bellingcat videos of different units in different locations adds to the conspiracy… Any mention of Bellingcat’s fabrications immediately dismisses any further discussion.

It must be great to call evidence you don’t like “fake”. Sadly, it doesn’t quite work that way.

Considering the … the delays and prejudiced outcomes, one cannot discount information that has been omitted, hidden or “edited” to the anti-Russina/pro-Ukrainian line.

What delays? Most airplane crash investigations have historically taken 4-5 years on average to complete. This attempt by Russia to smear and discredit the Dutch investigators – by making it look like they were taking too long – is completely dishonest.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:28 PM
Reply to  Matt

Missiles only appear in a combat zone when ‘bought’, do they? There is no such thing as a ‘black market’, is there? That’s just Russian propaganda, after all.

Jack_Garbo
Jack_Garbo
Jan 13, 2020 12:13 AM
Reply to  Matt

This Matt is becoming annoying, in his persistent ignorance. How would you know the Su25s were upgraded or rearmed with Israelis gear?
I’m not talking about delays in the investigation. Expected. But both Russia, an accused, and Malaysia, a victim, were pointedly excluded from the investigation. Explain.
The faked rebel radio messages still carried an old time stamp. Inadmissible.
Bellingcat is a known faker of “evidence”, funded by the Atlantic Council (ie UK MoD, CIA, et al ), dismissed from any serious discussion.
I hope you’re getting paid well for this because you’re running into a lot of flak on this site. It’s Not the Guardian, you know.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:26 PM

MH17 stayed at 38,000 feet did it, all the way to the ground. Odd.

paul
paul
Jan 14, 2020 2:07 AM

It is perfectly capable of flying at that altitude and shooting down a civilian aircraft.

Gall
Gall
Jan 12, 2020 8:38 PM
Reply to  Matt

And the winner of the most DEBUNKED comment award on OG is Matt the Guardian shill 🙂

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:31 PM
Reply to  Gall

Most downvoted, maybe. But debunked? Not a chance. Unless you can point out where my comment was “debunked”!

Also, I haven’t read a Guardian article in years. But that doesn’t stop you from saying I’m a “Guardian shill”. I thought I was a “Bellingcat shill”, as well as a “security services shill”, as other have called me here?

There is zero moderation here. If a single person, like me, disagrees with the hive-mind, a huge number of lunatics crowd around and start hurling insults, with very little actual debate. And what do the admins do? Nothing.

Gall
Gall
Jan 13, 2020 7:39 AM
Reply to  Matt

Uh huh…

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:19 PM
Reply to  Matt

You link to Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty for confirmation??!! Do you think people are ignorant fools? Those scum could easily sleep on cork-screws, and have done little but lie and disinform for seventy years.

KneelB4Zod!
KneelB4Zod!
Jan 12, 2020 12:03 AM
Reply to  Matt

Just of curiosity – hoíw do you KNOW Russian “proxies” are behind MH17? Even Malaysian PM claimed that the investigation is not “impartial”. Do you have better informations than Mahathir Mohamad?

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 2:17 AM
Reply to  KneelB4Zod!

Do you have better informations than Mahathir Mohamad?

That is a very reasonable question to ask. One would assume that the leader of the country involved in the investigation would have access to a vast amount of information, and therefore, his comments would be important. But there is an underlying assumption: that Mahathir Mohamad is a neutral figure and has educated himself with all the information Malaysian investigators know.

He hasn’t.

Mahathir Mohamad, first and foremost, has always been a conspiracy theorist. While retired from politics, on his blog, he blamed the disappearance of MH370 on… the CIA:

“Can it not be that the pilots of MH370 lost control of their aircraft after someone directly or remotely activated the equipment for seizure of control of the aircraft?”

Mahathir suggested the CIA had knowledge of the Boeing 777’s disappearance but was not sharing it with Malaysia. He claimed that government agencies, along with Boeing, had the ability to remotely take control of commercial airliners. Yep. Totally a neutral figure who analyzes information properly. /sarcasm

While he was retired, he also repeated Russia’s lies about MH17, as well as their smears of the JIT investigators. Thus, when he became Prime Minister in 2018, he entered office with a made-up mind.

His main comments about MH17, made several times last year, all repeated Russia’s claim that the JIT investigators were “biased against Russia”. He also repeated some strange lies from Russia, which his country’s investigators could have debunked in an instant had he actually spoken to them.

He said Malaysia should have been involved in the examining of the black box, as MH17 belongs to Malaysia and there were Malaysians passengers. This is nonsense as Malaysia representatives attended the downloading of the data in the CVR and FDR (black boxes), as well as listening session of the Voice Data Recorder. It’s written so in Appendix H of the DSB report. What is this guy smoking?

Screenshot from Appendix H of the DSB report:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSB-appendix-H-CVR-FDR-investigation-768×594.jpg

Appendix A:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSB-report-Malaysia-attended-listening-sessions.jpg

Some statements from Transport Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai on July 24, 2014:

Three Malaysian representatives, including Depart­ment of Civil Aviation director-general Datuk Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, were part of the 10-man delegation that had flown to Farnborough.

Mahathir also repeated a line frequently used by Lavrov: that Malaysia was not included in the investigation at first and was only added months later. This was used as evidence that Malaysia was excluded from the investigation. However, this was debunked too.

During a conference on MH17 by the former director-general of the department of Civil Aviation Authority (previously known as the Department of Civil Aviation) in Malaysia, Datuk Seri Azharuddin Abd Rahman, said that Malaysia was offered to lead the technical investigation into the cause of the crash of MH17. However Malaysia turned down the offer:

“We told them that we were too occupied with MH370, which happened four months before that. We were far away from the crash site,” he said.”

Azharuddin also shared with the audience that Malaysia downloaded and listened to the voice recordings from the black boxes of the aircraft before it was officially handed over to the Dutch authorities.

“We have downloaded and listened (from the recordings from the black boxes) as we wanted to know what exactly happened the last seconds of the incident.”

These words contradict earlier statements made by Mahathir. If only Mahathir had, you know, actually spoken to the people involved he would believe Russia’s lied so easily. It’s embarrassing to let another country trick you into repeating lies when your own government has people capable of easily debunking said lies.

KneelB4Zod!
KneelB4Zod!
Jan 12, 2020 2:41 AM
Reply to  Matt

Matt, I won’t read your unreasonably long rants. I’ve read a few sentences in this one and I will adress them to prove you’re a shill.

“Mahathir Mohamad, first and foremost, has always been a conspiracy theorist.”

The most of interested people know, by now, conspiracies are mostly correct. US supprots terrorists conpsiracy? Correct. Israel supports terrorists conspiracy? Correct. NATO supplies weapons to jihadists? Correct. Murica invaded Iraq to steal oil? Correct.

That’s all I can tell you and I’m not interested in further dinteraction. You’re corporate media loudmouth and your rhetoric I can hear from Murdoch anytime…

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 2:55 AM
Reply to  KneelB4Zod!

You ignored my post addressing Mahathir criticisms of the MH17 investigation. You ignored where I debunked his statements. And you dismissed my post as… “a rant”.

You haven’t bothered addressing a single argument I made. Just some nonsense about my use of the term conspiracy theorist. It’s been used on here many times to describe the Russiagate hoax. I used it to describe Mahathir’s claim that MH370 crashed because it was “remote-controlled” to do so. That is a conspiracy theory, regardless of what you think of the term.

That’s all I can tell you and I’m not interested in further dinteraction. You’re corporate media loudmouth and your rhetoric I can hear from Murdoch anytime…

You ignored everything I said about Mahathir and proceed to insult me. Perhaps you did read my post but couldn’t muster a proper response.

I challenge you to find a single mistake I made in my “rant”.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 12, 2020 12:38 PM
Reply to  Matt

You are confused. Opinion is not fact.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:40 PM
Reply to  Matt

You don’t ‘debunk’ anything. You make paranoid assertions that everything that clearly points to the truth concerning Ukraine and MH17 is ‘Russian propaganda’. That’s not an argument-that, itself, is crude agit-prop.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 3:22 AM
Reply to  KneelB4Zod!

Also, I’ve condensed my “rant” into shorter sentences so you won’t have an excuse anymore:

Claim #1: Mahathir said Malaysia should have been involved in the examining of the black box, as MH17 belongs to Malaysia and there were Malaysians passengers.

Debunking: This is nonsense as Malaysian representatives attended the downloading of the data in the CVR and FDR (black boxes), as well as listening session of the Voice Data Recorder. It’s written so in Appendix H of the DSB report.

Screenshot from Appendix H of the DSB report:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSB-appendix-H-CVR-FDR-investigation-768×594.jpg

Appendix A:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSB-report-Malaysia-attended-listening-sessions.jpg

Some statements from Transport Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai on July 24, 2014:

Three Malaysian representatives, including Depart­ment of Civil Aviation director-general Datuk Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, were part of the 10-man delegation that had flown to Farnborough.

Claim #2: He claimed that Malaysia was not included in the investigation at first and was only added months later. This was used as evidence that Malaysia was excluded from the investigation.

Debunking: During a conference on MH17, by the former director-general of the department of Civil Aviation Authority in Malaysia, Datuk Seri Azharuddin Abd Rahman, said that Malaysia was offered to lead the technical investigation into the cause of the crash of MH17. However Malaysia turned down the offer:

“We told them that we were too occupied with MH370, which happened four months before that. We were far away from the crash site,” he said.”

Azharuddin also shared with the audience that Malaysia downloaded and listened to the voice recordings from the black boxes of the aircraft before it was officially handed over to the Dutch authorities.

“We have downloaded and listened (from the recordings from the black boxes) as we wanted to know what exactly happened the last seconds of the incident.”

These words contradict earlier statements made by Mahathir. If only Mahathir had actually spoken to the people involved he would not believe Russia’s lies so easily. It’s embarrassing to let another country trick you into repeating lies when your own government has expertise capable of easily debunking said lies.

Antonym
Antonym
Jan 12, 2020 3:46 AM
Reply to  Matt

#Ukraine is part of the investigation team, despite being a potential suspect. Russia, the other suspect, was not allowed to join by the Dutch.
#Dutch PM Rutte is a lap dog of the EU top of which he tried to become the leader. The EU top is compromised into anti European policies like allowing millions of immigrants from the ME in, refusing Russia gas, going big for anti CO2. Who benefits from this: the CIA/ MI6 & their Saudi & UAE partners.
#The Ukraine had accusing tapes ready while MH17 was still smoking: very suspicious. They had the motive: give the CIA more ammo against Russia.
#Ukraine didn’t close their airspace for civilians even-though they had a virtual air war going on for weeks: why?

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 4:14 AM
Reply to  Antonym

Not sure why your sentences have hashtags. I’m guessing you copy-pasted from a Twitter thread.

Debunking:

Ukraine is part of the investigation team, despite being a potential suspect. Russia, the other suspect, was not allowed to join by the Dutch.

This has already been addressed by the JIT. MH17 crashed on the territory of Ukraine. In order to legally get access to the crash site and investigate, Ukraine must be part of the investigation. The JIT used a more colourful comparison: if MH17 had crashed in Russia, then Russia too would have been made part of the investigation.

Dutch PM Rutte is a lap dog of the EU top of which he tried to become the leader. The EU top is compromised into anti European policies like allowing millions of immigrants from the ME in, refusing Russia gas, going big for anti CO2. Who benefits from this: the CIA/ MI6 & their Saudi & UAE partners.

There’s nothing in this bizarre paragraph about MH17. Oh, and being “anti CO2” means you’re against Russia? Weird.

The Ukraine had accusing tapes ready while MH17 was still smoking: very suspicious. They had the motive: give the CIA more ammo against Russia.

What “tapes” are you talking about? It was obvious that a BUK shot down MH17. It’s literally the only weapon used in the conflict capable of doing so.

Antonym
Antonym
Jan 12, 2020 6:04 AM
Reply to  Matt
lundiel
lundiel
Jan 12, 2020 12:37 PM
Reply to  Matt

Err, you never answered the question. How do you KNOW?

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Jan 12, 2020 3:17 PM
Reply to  Matt

there is an underlying assumption: that Mahathir Mohamad is a neutral figure and has educated himself with all the information Malaysian investigators know.
He hasn’t.

Says a Bellingcat disinfo shill.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 4:46 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Instead of crudely insulting me, you could have addressed the points I made proving Mahathir’s two claims wrong. But you just spammed with a one-liner, kind of like how Admin did.

Gall
Gall
Jan 13, 2020 7:57 AM
Reply to  Matt

Coming from someone who insults are intelligence.

Gall
Gall
Jan 13, 2020 7:59 AM
Reply to  Gall

Actually “our”.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:30 PM
Reply to  Matt

Matt’s the sort of preposterous stooge who thinks that defending the CIA gives him some sort of kudos.

Gall
Gall
Jan 13, 2020 7:48 AM

Seems he uses the same tactics as the Culinary Institute of America since he’s mostly given a feast of haut “cuisine” that has absolutely no substance that he pretends are “reliable” but are in fact risible “sources”.

Dimly Glimpsed
Dimly Glimpsed
Jan 12, 2020 12:52 AM
Reply to  Matt

Matt,

Have you considered the arguments and evidence which show the BUK missile in the MH17 case came from the Ukranian government-controlled battery?

Also, from what I can recall, the Americans and NATO countries routinely lie about everything. Mike Pompeo, the American Secretary of State, for example, in a April, 2019 speech at Texas A&M, made the following statement about the CIA:

“I was the CIA Director – We Lied, We Cheated, We stole”.

Trump lies so routinely that lying is now becoming normalized in American society.

The “Allies” appear to be lying not only about MH17, but also about the Skripal case, the charges (backed up by lies by the U.N. agency OPCW) that Assad used sarin and/or chlorine in Douma, that Huawei technology is insecure because there are hidden back doors (true of Cisco with CIA back doors, but no one can prove any exist in Huawei), etc.

Perhaps you recall that the “Allies” launched a war of aggression against Iraq, based on the false charge that Saddam had nuclear weapons, and backed up by a sloppy and juvenile “sexed up dossier” that Tony Blair’s government used as justification, and lies such as the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassdor claiming that Saddam’s soldiers threw babies out of incubators.

Perhaps you recall that the USA used illegal chemical weapons such as white phosphorus in its extermination of the civilian city Fallujah during the American attack on Iraq. Perhaps you are aware that the “Allies” hide and deny Israel’s proven use of white phosphorus on the captive Palestinian population, along with using the Palestinians as human shields and killing unarmed Palestinian women and children targeted intentionally by snipers.

If your interest is an objective view of matters, the hopefully you’ll consider the track records of the players involved. Iran has invaded no other country in hundreds of years. The US is the world champion of invading other countries, and Britain and France have disgraceful histories of colonization and genocidal crimes against native peoples, as does America and other members of the “Allies”, including Australia and Canada.

I could go on, and on, and on. The “Allies” are much more guilty of killing and lies than Iran.

As you may know, the CIA has assassinated a number of country leaders, including several in South America, by bombing planes. Rumor is that is what the CIA had planned for Evo Morales, which is why he fled to Mexico, knowing the USA and traitors in the Bolivian army were planning just such an assassination.

I’m also having a bit of difficulty recalling many lies by the Iranians. On the other hand, from mere recollection alone, I could keep typing for yours adding to a list of lies I do recall by America and the Europeans, many of which were coverups of bloody insurrections, assassinations and murders.

Bottom line: I don’t trust anything America or the Europeans say. They are biased, have a track record of lying, and have a history of unclean hands. The Iranians, on the other hand, have a much better record in all those areas.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 3:02 AM
Reply to  Dimly Glimpsed

Dimly Glimpsed,

You make some good points and I agree with you in general. But just because a country has lied in the past, does not mean we should assume they are always lying. This thinking can even be weaponized by other countries. I remember when MH17 was first shot down and the West blamed the Eastern Ukrainian rebels. The Russian Foreign Ministry made several statements, repeatedly, mentioning the Iraq War and WMD. Imagine for a moment that the U.S. is telling the truth about MH17. This would mean Russia tried to cynically use previous false statements made by the U.S. to smear them and coverup Russia’s own lies.

In my opinion, each event in history should be treated in isolation. If the U.S. lied about WMD and Sarin, it is still possible they are telling the truth about MH17 and Skirpal.

I don’t blame you for the mistrust. It’s the fault of the U.S. that people don’t trust their word anymore. But that doesn’t mean we should believe the other country involved. Russia is capable of lying, just like any other country is.

Also, thank you for being the first commentator here to disagree with me respectfully. No one else has done that.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:44 PM
Reply to  Matt

I’m sorry, but when was the occasion when the US regime told the truth-I appear to have missed it.

Estaugh
Estaugh
Jan 12, 2020 12:52 AM
Reply to  Matt

“Even this website continues to repeat Russia’s lies, despite them being debunked.” So Why TF did you come here to spout of?

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 3:18 AM
Reply to  Estaugh

Because disagreement is healthy.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:47 PM
Reply to  Matt

Lying is not. Serving Imperial aggression is not. Paranoid Russophobia is not. I can’t see you as a beacon of moral or intellectual well-being, somehow.

falcemartello
falcemartello
Jan 12, 2020 4:42 AM
Reply to  Matt

Ur not a shill but a classic gaslighting ignoramus.
Why I say this your great gaslighting argument on MH17. I might ad further information the so called video of the event. The person in question just happened to be at the right place at the right time to take the false flag incidence in Iran. I gather the Skripal incidence and all the other BS thrown at the slavs is true as well. Who destroyed the wealthiest country in Africa.?The Russians. Who initiated a coup d’etat in Ukraine and supported the fascist? The Russians . Who destroyed Iraq ,Syria ? The Russians. Who had stolen all of Libya’s gold and silver? The Russians. Who had stolen the Venezuelan gold . The Russians.
As soon as the plane had gone down the Brits Canadians rite away with out batting an eyelid initiated talking points just like MH17 .”It was a russian missile tor 127 type that downed the aircraft . Hence i suggest you see a therapist with regards to your Russophobic xenophobic tripe.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 4:54 PM
Reply to  falcemartello

The person in question just happened to be at the right place at the right time to take the false flag incidence in Iran.

Wait, you’re calling this a “false flag” AFTER Iran already admit it was them? How delusional can you get?

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 12, 2020 8:37 AM
Reply to  Matt

Enough of your strawman.

The only link between this crash and the Ukrainian one is the carrier (Ukraine Air). A far more valid comparison is between this accidental shooting down and the shooting down of Iran Air flight 655 by an American Cruiser, the USS Vincennes, in July 1988. All 290 people aboard (including 66 children) were killed as a result, as it flew through a well-established air corridor between Tehran and Dubai.
The perpetrators were given medals and George H.W. Bush, Vice-President at the time, said: “I will never apologize for the United States – I don’t care what the facts are… I’m not an apologise-for-America kind of guy,”

DomesticExtremi
DomesticExtremi
Jan 13, 2020 6:24 AM
Reply to  lundiel

“The only link between this crash and the Ukrainian one is the carrier (Ukraine Air). ”
MH17 was a Malaysian Airlines plane.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 13, 2020 7:57 AM

Yes, this crash< the one in Iran was a Ukrainian airlines plane and the other one happened in Ukraine. That's the only similarity.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Jan 12, 2020 10:52 AM
Reply to  Matt

And to this very day, NATO refuses to make public the results of their MH17 investigation, in which all parties had to sign a confidentiality agreement beforehand.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 4:52 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

The results have been public for a while now. As for the confidentiality agreement, every investigation has those. Standard stuff. Russia, desperate to find some way to discredit the investigators, pointed to this as evidence of some vast conspiracy. It really isn’t.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 9:16 PM
Reply to  Matt

The biggest lie of all is that it was ‘the Russians’ lying, and the USA (with its unrivaled record of mendacity) its NATO stooges and its Ukronazi creatures were telling the truth. Only a fool, or a lying knave, would claim to believe that.

Paul
Paul
Jan 11, 2020 10:10 PM

It was the same in Iran back in 1953 with the sudden appearance of angry and armed ‘anti a Communists’ protesting the government, winding up the political time bomb. It cost the State Department a lot of money – although not as much as spent on the Shah! Later these mercenary protesters, often special forces types seeped in brutality upped the PR with flowers and colours as symbols. In other places, where they faced serious opposition they reverted to the dirtiest of tricks involving snipers creating havoc, as in Kiev in 2014. Something similar seems to be happening in Hong King and Tehran but then did anybody expect the Empire to roll over?!

paul
paul
Jan 14, 2020 4:57 PM
Reply to  Paul

ZOG is paying $600 million a year for regime change projects in Iran, using MEK terrorist nutjobs fronted by Giuliand and Pence as its catspaw. That doesn’t include all the millions for CIA front groups like the NED, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, or the state controlled BBC’s subversive Persian service, with 5th columnists like Zaghari Ratcliffe trying to stir up trouble in Iran.

Brian Steere
Brian Steere
Jan 11, 2020 10:09 PM

I don’t see reason to doubt this. A suspicious mind can conjecture – but why would Iran admit this unless they verified that it happened?

If combatants are killed in the line of duty it is part of the risk of combat.
When civilians are killed in error it is tragic.

War and fear of attack are extremely dangerous. ‘Friendly fire’ so called, is not uncommon.

In this sense the token ‘revenge’ has backfired.

But the full facts may not be known.

KneelB4Zod!
KneelB4Zod!
Jan 11, 2020 10:30 PM
Reply to  Brian Steere

As I wrote, it’s strangely convenient for the hegemons. Now Trump even tweets in Farsi, supporting Tehran protest.

I have no doubt that the plane was downed by Iranian missile. But was it an error? It’s not outside of realm of possibilities that it was a sabotage. Mole withing air defense unit nearby Tehran’s civil airport.

Under the current circumstances it’s less damaging for Iran to take responsiblity for the tragedy then admit that the internal security was severely breached and infiltrated by hostile forces.

Matt
Matt
Jan 11, 2020 10:43 PM
Reply to  Brian Steere

In this sense the token ‘revenge’ has backfired.

That’s exactly what I think. The whole point of the missile attack was to avenge Soleimani’s death. But the plane shoot down has ruined this moment of revenge.

What makes this even more ironic is that the shooter was a member of the IRGC, in which Soleimani was a Major General.

Jack_Garbo
Jack_Garbo
Jan 12, 2020 2:22 AM
Reply to  Matt

As has already been stated, the Iranian attacked on two US bases was not the “revenge” for Soleimani’s assassination, but a show of 1. Iranian tactical ability (warned first, no casualties), 2, the beginning of revenge for Soleimani and others killed by the US presence. It has only begun.
Don’t think like a (short-term) Westerner, but like a long term Easterner. The US will eventually be driven out, the Iranians will them them good-bye.

KneelB4Zod!
KneelB4Zod!
Jan 11, 2020 9:46 PM

Considering the fact how convenient the whole airliner incident is for the hegemons I still have doubts if it was just human error.

Pompeo tweeting support for Tehran protest which follows today’s announcement. British ambassador arrested amid participation in it. It pseaks loud imo…

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jan 11, 2020 10:15 PM
Reply to  KneelB4Zod!

If the footage of the missile striking the plane is genuine, I remain unclear as to why someone would have been, it would appear, randomly pointing a phone camera at a black night sky on the outskirts of Tehran at 6.30 in the morning and, by sheer coincidence, caught the moment of impact. The way the camera was being aligned would suggest the person behind the camera was anticipating a particular event and was eager to capture it on film. Maybe I’m being unduly suspicious. Of course we don’t know for sure that the footage in question was indeed genuine.

Mike Leach
Mike Leach
Jan 11, 2020 10:57 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

I don’t think there’s any such thing as ‘unduly suspicious’ in the present state of the world.

Derek
Derek
Jan 11, 2020 10:59 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Iran claim the missiles were launched by an individual who was out of radio contact with his commander and “panicked” upon seeing the fast-moving object on radar.

More than one missile was launched so is it not possible that’s why the person was filming?

Tim Jenkins
Tim Jenkins
Jan 14, 2020 7:38 AM
Reply to  JudyJ

Belated best wishes for the New Year, JudyJ: sincere apologies for the delay in responding; I’ve been a bit in the wars, recently and it was a pig awful Xmas & New Year in most senses, with much of my time being needlessly wasted by foolish ego driven females & lazy males, in a workplace, not of my choice or for reward, but out of necessity & loyalty to my conscience & family members who were fully overloaded & being ripped off by petty criminals.

Whilst hunkering down & digging in, it had plagued my sub-conscious mind that I had failed to respond to your last comm. & best wishes to all, which I dutifully relayed, before the ‘hammer’ fell on me physically, literally, with steel rod.

Still, I got to see Balky for 2 days @home in the mountains and managed to consume a bottle (or two 🙂 ) of real fine homemade red wine, before commencing with a course of antibiotics on New Years Day. Way to go, as recovery gets slower with age, but thurs’ life in the old dog yet and i hope to get to read more of your duly suspicious comments, even if my time to respond is limited >>> I’m watching, don’t you worry,
Be Happy & keep healthy:
all the best,
Tim(bo) 🙂

milosevic
milosevic
Jan 15, 2020 12:50 AM
Reply to  Tim Jenkins

no one cares about your fictitious backstory, disinfo shill.

Loverat
Loverat
Jan 11, 2020 11:02 PM
Reply to  KneelB4Zod!

One thing I think I mentioned on another thread as cynical as it is, this plane possibly might have been shot down deliberately by Iran. If you think about it, this event has distracted and possibly taken the ‘sting’ out of the main event. And of course if the West knows the plane was shot down by Iran deliberately it could have been a message not to retaliate for the air base attack. Iran admitting it accidentally shot down the plane might take some of the force out of my argument/ possible theory but then again this might be an effort to take out the ‘secondary sting or risk of retaliation. Hope that makes some sense!

Let’s face it, there are other states aside from US and UK might create or stage ‘events’. As for demos in Iran, can’t really see why this would be a major issue for Iranians, or if so likely to be significantly talked up by Pompeo and extremist war rags like the Guardian.

But who really knows at this stage?

Martin Usher
Martin Usher
Jan 12, 2020 2:13 AM
Reply to  Loverat

Actually, it ruined what should have been a perfect response. I honestly thought their air defenses were more sophisticated than they were, in particular that there was a level of coordination between individual units and a command and control center that could verify whether a threat was real or not. We can speculate about whether this event was engineered or not but as far as I’m concerned its a screwup of the same order as the Vincennes incident. (The only different being that the Iranains didn’t have a news crew taping ‘our boys’ in action while they paniced and overreacted.)

Sad as this is I don’t think it will happen again. Needless to say we in the US will make as much political capital about it as we can but then its our job.