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Downing of PS-752 already being used to smear MH-17 skeptics

Max Parry

When the Pentagon confirmed the assassination of Iranian Major General Qasem Soleimani, U.S. President Donald Trump took to social media to post a single image of the American flag to the adulation of his followers.

Unfortunately, most Americans are ignorant of the other flag synonymous with U.S. foreign policy, that of the ‘false flag’ utilized to deceive the public and stir up support for endless war abroad.

While the chicken hawk defenders of Trump’s reckless decision to murder one of the biggest contributors in the defeat of ISIS salivated over possible war with Iran, their appetite was spoiled by Tehran’s retaliatory precision strikes of two U.S. bases in Iraq that deliberately avoided casualties while in accordance with the Islamic Republic’s right to self-defense under Article 51 of the United Nations charter.

The reprisal successfully deescalated the crisis but sent a clear message Iran was willing to stand up to the U.S. with the backing of Russia and China, while Washington underestimated Tehran which forewarned the Iraqi government of its impending counterattack so U.S. personnel could evacuate.

In the hours following the ballistic missile strikes, reports came in that a Boeing 737 international passenger flight scheduled from Tehran to Kiev, Ukraine had crashed shortly after takeoff from Imam Khomeini International Airport, killing all 176 passengers and flight crew on board.

Initial video of the crash of Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752 (PS752) showed that the aircraft was already in flames while descending to the ground, leading to speculation it was shot down amid the heightened political crisis between Iran and Washington. In the days following, a second obscure video surfaced which only increased this suspicion.

Meanwhile, Western governments quickly concluded that an anti-aircraft surface-to-air missile brought PS752 down and were eager to point the finger at Iran before any formal investigation. Many people, including this author, were admittedly skeptical as to how a plane taking off from Tehran could have been mistaken five hours after the strikes in Iraq.

Nevertheless, those with reservations turned out to be wrong when days later the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) came clean that its aerospace forces made a “human error” and accidentally shot the passenger plane down after mistaking it for a incoming cruise missile when it flew close to a military base during a heightened state of alert in anticipation of U.S. attack.

Many have noted that Iran’s honorable decision to take responsibility for the catastrophe is in sharp contrast with Washington’s response in 1988 when the U.S. Navy shot down Iran Air Flight 655 scheduled from Tehran to Dubai over the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf, killing all 290 occupants, after failing to cover it up.

Just a month later, Vice President George H.W. Bush would notoriously state he would “never apologize for the United States of America. Ever. I don’t care what the facts are.”

Although he was not directly referring to the incident, one can only imagine what the reaction would be if Iranian President Hassan Rouhani were to say the same weeks after shooting down the Ukrainian plane, let alone an American one.

Predictably, Tehran’s transparency has gone mostly unappreciated while the Trump administration is already trying to use the disaster to further demonize Iran.

Oddly enough, Ukrainian International Airlines is partly owned by the infamous Ukrainian-Israeli oligarch, politician and energy tycoon Igor Kolomoisky, who was notably one of the biggest financiers of the anti-Russian, pro-EU coup d’etat which overthrew the democratically elected government of Viktor Yanukovych in 2014.

Kolomoisky is also a principal backer of current Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky whose dubious phone call with Trump resulted in the 45th U.S. president’s impeachment last month.

In another astounding coincidence, Kolomoisky’s Privat Group is believed to control Burisma Holdings, the Cypress-based company whose executive board 2020 presidential candidate Joe Biden’s son Hunter was appointed to following the Maidan junta.

The former Vice President admitted that he bribed Ukraine into firing its top prosecutor who was looking into his son’s corruption by threatening to withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees.

Kolomoisky, AKA “the Chameleon”, is one of the wealthiest people in the ex-Soviet country and was formerly appointed as governor of an administrative region bordering Donbass in eastern Ukraine following the 2014 putsch. He has also funded a battalion of volunteer neo-Nazi mercenaries fighting alongside the Ukrainian army in the War in Donbass against Russian-speaking separatists which the military aid temporarily withheld by the Trump administration that was disputably contingent upon an investigation of Biden and his son goes to.

In 2014, another infamous plane shootdown made international headlines when Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) scheduled from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was shot down over the breakaway Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) in eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 passengers and crew.

From the get-go, the Obama administration was adamant that the missile which shot down the Boeing 777 came from separatist rebel territory.

However, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad denounced the charges brought against the Russian and Ukrainian nationals indicted in the NATO-led investigation, dismissing the entire probe as a politically motivated effort predetermined to scapegoat Moscow and exclude Malaysian participation in the inquiry from the very beginning.

Mohamad is featured in the excellent documentary MH17: Call for Justice made by a team of independent journalists which contests the NATO-scripted narrative and reveals that the Buk missile was more likely launched from Ukrainian Army-controlled territory than the DPR. One of Kolomoisky’s hired guns could also have been responsible.

Shamefully, Iran’s admission of guilt in the PS752 downing is already being used by establishment propagandists to discredit skeptics and conflated with similar contested past events like MH17 in order to intimidate dissenting voices from speaking up in the future.

The Bellingcat ‘investigative journalism’ collective which made its name incriminating Moscow for the MH17 tragedy are the principle offenders. Bellingcat bills itself as an ‘independent’ citizen journalism group even though its founder Eliot Higgins is employed by the Atlantic Council think tank which receives funding from NATO, the U.S. State Department, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), George Soros’ Open Society Foundation NGO, and numerous other regime change factories.

Despite its enormous conflict of interest, Bellingcat remains highly cited by corporate media as a supposedly reputable source. At the outset, nearly everything about the PS752 tragedy gave one déjà vu of the MH17 disaster, including the rush to judgement by Western governments, so it was only natural for many to distrust the official narrative until more facts came out.

None of this changes that the use of commercial passenger jets as false flag targets for U.S. national security subterfuge is a verifiable historical fact, not a ‘conspiracy theory.’

In 1997, the U.S. National Archives declassified a 1962 memo proposed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Department of Defense for then-Secretary of State Robert McNamara entitled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba.”

The document outlined a series of ‘false flag’ terrorist attacks, codenamed Operation Northwoods, to be carried out on a range of targets and blamed on the Cuban government to give grounds for an invasion of Havana in order to depose Fidel Castro.

These scenarios included targets within the U.S., in particular Miami, Florida, which had become a haven of right-wing émigrés and defectors following the Cuban Revolution.

In addition to the sinking of a Cuban refugee boat, one Northwoods plan included the staging of attacks on a civilian jet airliner and a U.S. Air Force plane to be pinned on Castro’s government:

8. It is possible to create and incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

9. It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack.

Although Operation Northwoods was rejected by then-U.S. President John F. Kennedy – which many believe was a factor in his subsequent assassination – Cuban exiles with the support of U.S. intelligence would later be implicated in such an attack the following decade with the bombing of Cubana Airlines Flight 455 in 1976 which killed all 73 passengers and crew on board.

In 2005, documents released by the National Security Archive showed that the CIA under then-director George H.W. Bush had advanced knowledge of the plans of a Dominican Republic-based Cuban exile terrorist organization, the Coordination of United Revolutionary Organizations (CORU), at the direction of former CIA operative Luis Posada Carriles to blow up the airliner.

The U.S. later refused to extradite Carriles to Cuba to face charges and although he never admitted to masterminding the bombing of the jet, he publicly confessed to other attacks on tourist hotels in Cuba during the 1990s and was later arrested in 2000 for attempting to blow up an auditorium in Panama trying to assassinate Castro.

In 1962, the planners of Operation Northwoods concluded that such deceptive operations would shift U.S. public opinion unanimously against Cuba.

World opinion and the United Nations forum should be favorably affected by developing the international image of Cuban government as rash and irresponsible, and as an alarming and unpredictable threat to the peace of the Western Hemisphere.”

The same talking points are used by the U.S. government to demonize Iran today.

Initially, some Western intelligence sources also concluded that it was a malfunction or overheated engine that brought PS752 down in corroboration with the Iranian government’s original explanation until the narrative abruptly shifted the following day.

That they were so quick to hold Iran accountable without any investigation gave the apparent likelihood that PS752 could have fallen prey to a Northwoods-style false flag operation designed to further isolate Iran and defame its leaders after they took precautions to avoid U.S. casualties in their retaliatory strikes for the killing of Soleimani.

Maintaining the image of Iran as a nefarious regime is crucial in justifying hawkish U.S. policies toward the country and Iran’s noted restraint in its retaliation put a dent in that impression, so many were suspicious and rightly so.

It was also entirely plausible that U.S. special operations planners could have consulted the Northwoods playbook replacing Cuba with Iran and the right-wing gusanos who were to assist the staged attacks in Miami with the Iranian opposition group known as Mujahedin e-Khalq (MEK/People’s Mujahedin of Iran) to do the same in Tehran.

In July of last year, Trump’s personal lawyer and former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani gave a paid speech at the cult-like group’s compound in Albania where he not only referred to the group as Iran’s “government-in-exile” but stated the U.S’s explicit intentions to use them for regime change in Iran.

The MEK enjoys high-level contacts in the Trump administration and the group was elated at his decision to murder Soleimani in Baghdad.

From 1997 until 2012, the MEK was on the State Department’s list of terrorist organizations until it was removed by the Obama administration after its expulsion from Iraq in order to relocate the group to fortified bases in Albania and the NATO protectorate of Kosovo.

The latter disputed territory is a perfect fit for the rebranded group having been founded by another deregistered foreign terrorist organization, the al-Qaeda linked Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), whose leader, Hashim Thaçi, presides over the partially-recognized state. The MEK are no longer designated as such despite the State Department’s own account of its bloody history:

During the 1970s, the MEK staged terrorist attacks inside Iran to destabilize and embarrass the Shah’s regime; the group killed several US military personnel and civilians working on defense projects in Tehran. The group also supported the takeover in 1979 of the US Embassy in Tehran. In April 1992 the MEK carried out attacks on Iranian embassies in 13 different countries, demonstrating the group’s ability to mount large-scale operations overseas.”

Declassified documents revealing the sinister plans in Operation Northwoods which shockingly made it all the way to the desk of the president of the United States and the foreknowledge of Cubana Airlines Flight 455 are just two examples of solid proof that false flag attacks against civilian passenger planes are a part of the Pentagon’s modus operandi as disclosed in its own archives and there is no reason to believe that such practices have been discontinued.

That the U.S. is still cozy with “former” terror groups like MEK seeking to repatriate is good reason to believe its use of militant exiles for covert operations like those from Havana has not been retired.

If there were jumps to conclusions that proven serial liars could be looking for an excuse to stage an attack to lay the blame on Iran, it is only because the distinct probability was overwhelming.

Even so, a stopped clock strikes the right time twice per day and that is all Iran’s acknowledgment of its liability proves — that even the world’s most unreliable and criminal sources in Washington and Langley can be accurate sometimes, even if by accident.

Stay skeptical.

Max Parry is an independent journalist and geopolitical analyst. His writing has appeared widely in alternative media. Max may be reached at [email protected]

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Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 17, 2020 12:08 PM

OK, so the beyond irregular bringing in of bulldozers … with zero to bulldoze is having a laugh …
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/iran-bulldozers-ukrainian-jet-crash-site-complicate-investigation-2020-1

… but I just saw this video reporting the names of the four pilots on the Asiana Flight 214. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUgdVXUDrM8

Captain Sum Ting Wong
Wi Tu Lo
Ho Lee Fuk
Bang Ding Ow

Wikipedia says:
San Francisco television station KTVU fell victim to “a prank”[144][145][146] in which then-news-anchor Tori Campbell reported a quartet of phonetic double entendres as the actual names of the flight crew. The names reported were Sum Ting Wong (“something[‘s] wrong”), Wi Tu Lo (“we[‘re] too low”), Ho Lee Fuk (“holy fuck”), and Bang Ding Ow (onomatopoeia for crashing sound and expression of pain). The prank has been described as racist and insensitive.
that the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

“Fell victim to a prank.” Oh please. If it were a real plane disaster it wouldn’t have happened … and, unsurprisingly, the visual evidence does not match the description of the crash.

They hoax us so utterly shamelessly and I am derided and challenged every step of the way with my perfectly evidence-based claims that we are. Sad.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 14, 2020 9:35 PM

I confess to having next to no understanding of geo-politics and only get some very basic fundamentals.

1. One must always judge by the evidence and be willing to change one’s mind at the drop of a hat with regard to what “really went down” … however,

2. This is not what people do at all. People disbelieve lies selectively and are very difficult to coax out of believing certain ones, especially those involving lies about deaths. For some reason, people believe that the power elite wouldn’t exploit the taboos around death and our emotional investment in tragic stories about people’s deaths. People don’t believe that the power elite would stoop to such lows so when the media tell us that a large number of people have died, regardless of the fact that the evidence is clearly shown not to support the claim … that lie we will always be believed and people will be very hostile to those who challenge that kind of lie … which is so very, very convenient for the power elite. Makes it so very, very easy for them.

2. The power elite hoax us shamelessly … however,

3. They always let us know very clearly and rub it in our faces – there are various reasons for this but an obvious one is that power can do what it likes when it likes in Emperor’s New Clothes / Hitler Lie fashion and, of course, as it can do what it likes when it likes it will do just that – as in any good master/slave relationship it is more or less obliged to do so and it will have a great old chortle in the process.

4. The power elite can only work because of a great number of people willing to collaborate with it, an immense number of collaborators whose level of participation varies along a continuum and ultimately includes all of us.

So in regard to recent events relating to Iran, we have to consider inside collaboration. I do not believe that in modern times, at least, powers invade other countries without inside collaborators. There are always “backchannels”. I know nothing about Iran, never heard of Soleimani, Rouhani or anyone or any group in power at all. Complete ignorance. Then a friend sent me this tweet of an image of an anonymous post. That’s when I caught on a little and when the plane crash was reported it was an obvious event to check out for veracity – I should have posted this tweet earlier as it would have aided in the persuasive force of my presentation of evidence that the PS-752 crash was faked which doesn’t seem to have persuaded a soul despite the fact that no one has been able to respond with any counter argument for the crash being real.
https://twitter.com/mibmark/status/1215585073283485697?s=21

“The Soleimani Assassination and Occam’s Razor”

Many are calling Trump’s move taking out General Soleimani “4D Chess”. I believe there is another strategy in play.

Trump has backchannels to Iran and made a deal with Rouhani to take out Iran’s General who Rouhani was already losing control over. Soleimani was acting as a lone wolf in Iraq. He was there AGAINST ORDERS from President Rouhani. Soleimani was becoming too powerful and he was using Iran’s army as his own personal mercenary force. Rouhani was slowly losing control over his own military and Trump saw this is an opportunity to make a deal with the devil.

Both Trump and Iran want US forces to begin wrapping up in Iraq.

Rouhani wants Soleimani dead because he is becoming uncontrolled.

Trump wants Soleimani dead in order to look powerful and to snub Obama for his pardon of the war criminal.

Soleimani’s death causes a vote in Iraq for US forces to leave. Now Trump can pull forces without battling in congress.

Rouhani and Trump both get what they want. Rouhani gets to cry crocodile tears for his poor general, and Trump has made inroads into a deal with Iran.

There will be some more back and forth fake posturing from Iran against Trump in order to save face and create plausible deniability, but ultimately Rouhani will come to the table.

Iran will come to the table and agree to inspections and denuclearization in return for sanction relief. The president has become old and weary of this path and he sees Trump as his ally against the Globalists. Now is the time when Iran can come to the table and establish strong economic nationalist trade deals that are free of globalist intervention.

Iran realises that their war has always been against the Rothschild banks and Rouhani realises that Trump is their enemy as well, so now is the time to make a deal. The deal must be done in secret, where both sides look like enemies in order to save face to the general public who hate each other’s guts.

This will cause the price of oil to plummet below $30 by end of year.

Ex Analyst
Ex Analyst
Jan 15, 2020 3:21 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

You’re correct. You DO know nothing about geopolitics.

Or economics.

Or Trump.

One small question only for you to ponder on.

Why would Iran – an oil economy -want the price of oil to ‘plummet below 30$ a barrel’?

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 15, 2020 4:44 AM
Reply to  Ex Analyst

The text is from the image of a post presented in the tweet. In answer to your question about the oil price, no idea, because as you rightly confirm – I know nothing about geopolitics. Do you see no merit in the rest of the post re collusion between Rouhani and Trump?

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 15, 2020 4:20 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Oh dear, that is just fiction, very bad fiction to boot!
comment image

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 15, 2020 4:47 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

I don’t think it is presented as fact, Vierotchka, at least, not entirely, and while some of the claims/hypothesis may not hold up I think the timeline of events certainly supports collusion between Rouhani and Trump.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 15, 2020 5:02 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

comment image

Ex Analyst
Ex Analyst
Jan 15, 2020 1:42 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

The timeline alone supports numerous narratives. To distinguish the plausible from the implausible or the downright absurd we need to have some knowledge of geopolitics, which you admit to not possessing

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 15, 2020 10:45 PM
Reply to  Ex Analyst

It supports the following narrative perfectly:
— Collusion between Trump and Rouhani in assassination of Soleimani
— Fake plane crash
— Rouhani blames Revolutionary Guards (led by Soleimani) for “accidental” shooting down of plane

It doesn’t support the following narrative perfectly:
— US assassinates Soleimani on its lonesome
— Real plane crash brought down accidentally or on purpose by Revolutionary Guards
— Rouhani blames Revolutionary Guards (led by Soleimani) for “accidental” shooting down of plane

What other narratives do you think it supports?

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 15, 2020 10:52 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Certainly not your tinfooile hat narrative, that’s for sure.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 15, 2020 10:55 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Ooops, butterfingers! Once again:

Certainly not your tinfoil hat narrative, that’s for sure.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 15, 2020 10:53 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Apologies. Let me revise that.

The evidence shows the plane crash was faked so this needs to be included in the narrative – see https://off-guardian.org/2020/01/12/downing-of-ps-752-already-being-used-to-smear-mh-17-skeptics/#comment-111238

It supports the following narrative perfectly:
— Collusion between Trump and Rouhani in assassination of Soleimani
— Fake plane crash (necessary collusion by the the US, Iran (Rouhani), Canada and the Ukraine)
— Rouhani blames Revolutionary Guards (led by Soleimani) for “accidental” shooting down of plane and now we have the fake charges

It doesn’t support the following narrative perfectly:
— US assassinates Soleimani on its lonesome
— Fake plane crash (necessary collusion by the the US, Iran (Rouhani), Canada and the Ukraine)
— Rouhani blames Revolutionary Guards (led by Soleimani) for “accidental” shooting down of plane and now we have the fake charges

What other narratives do you think the timeline supports?

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 15, 2020 10:56 PM
Reply to  Ex Analyst

I should have made my revised comment in reply to your comment not mine as you may miss it so just letting you know that I revised my comment.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 14, 2020 11:06 AM

It’s as Dresden James said:

A truth’s initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn’t the world being round that agitated people, but that the world wasn’t flat.

Yesterday, I mentioned to my sister that the Ukrainian airliner crash was faked to which she replied, “I didn’t even know it happened … or rather I didn’t know that it didn’t happen.” It’s only been a week but the lie that PS-752 crashed in Tehran has struck deep.

Why? for goodness sake. They lead us around like by the nose ring with all sorts of nonsense for which they provide the most laughable of evidence. Why do people have such a strong belief in stories emanating from media and governments who lie all the time? I simply do not understand it. I’m ready to go in an instant, “Something I believed for 40 years not true? Okaaaay.”

I ask you which hypothesis fits best with the presentation of the hilarious claim, “The Iranian Revolutionary Guards shot down PS-752 by accident”?

H1. The US all on their lonesome assassinated Soleimani and the Iranian Revolutionary Guards shot down PS-752 as revenge.

H2. The US in collusion with Rouhani (and his mates) assassinated (not necessarily as shown) or otherwise disappeared Soleimani and in additional collusion with Canada and the Ukraine faked the crash of PS-752. The plan was that Iran would then blame the crash on the Revolutionary Guards who’d been led by Soleimani.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 15, 2020 4:23 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

comment image

Rob
Rob
Jan 14, 2020 3:36 AM

Did the US hijack the Ukraine B737-800, PS 752, then switched off its transponder and flew it towards a sensitive Iranian military base to FOOL the Iranian to shoot it down?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Jan 14, 2020 1:51 PM
Reply to  Rob

Here is Jim Stone and he is advocating access through IP address rather than DNS – all sites should have that – MODS please take note.

On the downing of the aircraft he is suggesting that the aircraft ID was switched OFF before it was targeted by the missile operators. The info should be evident. It seems the full facts are still not out.
http://82.221.129.208/.vt9.html

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
Jan 13, 2020 4:31 PM

Bellingcat=Bullshit is certainly a strap line that deserves to go viral……..

kevin morris
kevin morris
Jan 13, 2020 2:26 PM

I am skeptical- extremely skeptical- and that of course includes your article which is strong on ifs and maybes but naked of facts that we are frequently told should be sacred.

ZigZagWanderer
ZigZagWanderer
Jan 13, 2020 10:07 PM
Reply to  kevin morris

” but naked of facts ”

I am skeptical – extremely skeptical that you even read the article.

kevin morris
kevin morris
Jan 13, 2020 10:37 PM
Reply to  ZigZagWanderer

Yes indeed I did. What the article amounted to was the usual kind of join the dots exercise that the left seems to love nowadays. I have little doubt that MH17 had nothing to do with either the Russians or with Russian speaking Ukrainian separatists. Operation Northwoods is clearly a fact, but to mention both in an article thereby implying that the recent shooting down of a Ukrainian airliner in Tehran was planned and executed by the CIA most certainly is not factual but speculation.

Of course, we all want to believe that ‘the CIA done it’ but there is no evidence that they have. If facts really should be sacred, they should not be used to lead readers by the nose. I would argue that rather more rigour should be called for.

ZigZagWanderer
ZigZagWanderer
Jan 14, 2020 12:09 AM
Reply to  kevin morris

“Northwoods is clearly a fact” …. Just the one fact in the article then ? An improvement I suppose from your initial “naked of facts” observation.

I just re read the article and found perhaps one fact in the majority of the 40 + paragraphs .. some paragraphs contain more than one .

Your comment suggesting the article is fact free is bogus and wildly misleading as it clearly contains dozens of facts.

And you would “argue that more rigour should be called for ?

Pure Comedy Gold.

kevin morris
kevin morris
Jan 14, 2020 12:44 AM
Reply to  ZigZagWanderer

You can put as many facts as you wish in an article but then come to a spurious conclusion based upon those facts. Just because the US has a history of provoking false flag events, doesn’t prove that the Ukrainian airliner crash in Iran had anything to do with the US. To make such claims is dishonest journalism, however much the left would wish it to be so.

ZigZagWanderer
ZigZagWanderer
Jan 15, 2020 2:56 AM
Reply to  kevin morris

Your post said the article was “naked of facts” …. which clearly it wasn’t . There were dozen of facts in the article. You were lying.

Now you have shifted and it’s the writers “spurious conclusion ” based on those facts that’s got your panties in a bunch.

“To make such claims is dishonest journalism” …. The writer has made no claims .

You are lying yet again. And accusing a journalist of being dishonest , having just shown yourself to be dishonest.

As I said … Pure Comedy Gold.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 14, 2020 12:01 PM
Reply to  ZigZagWanderer

Operation Northwoods on the ABC News website:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662

15 pages of declassified Joint Chiefs of Staff
documents on Operation Northwoods
as posted on the National Security Archive
of George Washington University:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430

Instructions on how to access 181 pages of
declassified documents from Operation Northwoods
on the official website of the
US National Archives and Records Administration:

https://www.WantToKnow.info/operationnorthwoods

Source: https://www.wanttoknow.info/010501operationnorthwoods

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:09 AM
Reply to  kevin morris

Perhaps the USA did not directly do it, as they did with the Iranian airbus back in ’88, but they certainly caused it to happen, as with KAL 007 and Lockerbie.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 14, 2020 3:14 AM

American exceptionalism:- the belief that all other countries lack the maturity and wisdom to be responsible for their own actions…Their can be no evil in the world that cannot be traced back to the US..

Tutisicecream
Tutisicecream
Jan 13, 2020 1:04 PM

People who remember the Lockerbie crash will no doubt remember the way the narrative changed being manipulated by the US and the UK.

Eventually targeting Libya as this was the way the case went in the international investigation. Whatever the reason there was plenty of evidence of manipulation of evidence and motive. Years later, in December 1993, Dr Fieldhouse who helped identify most of the bodies from the crash site, gave an interview for a film about Lockerbie, the “Maltese Double Cross,” in which he narrates some of the events discussed in this article.

Fieldhouse, a doctor from Manchester was subsequently discredited by the government and was summoned to a meeting with two senior West Yorkshire police officers at Wakefield in 1993. Without explanation, he was sacked as police surgeon with a three-month notice. The state went to great lengths to discredit Dr Fieldhouse for persistent claims that evidence had been erased and replaced.

Another case where families were left with more questions than answers courtesy of their governments who claim to have only our interests at heart in these matters.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 13, 2020 12:46 PM

Oh my, I didn’t think to look at the MH-17 crash. Dear readers, whenever you wish to analyse anything the media tell you, please, I beg you, scrutinise the visual evidence.

We’re supposed to believe that this image shows dead bodies and body parts. They didn’t bother with actual “bodies” for PS-752, just very neatly arranged body bags (as far as I’ve seen anyway).
http://nrt24.ru/en/news/russia-has-counter-evidence-regarding-probe-mh17-crash-ukraine

In the first video at the link below (2:51), they tell us:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/breaking-mh17-crash-reports-findings/story?id=34441015

The aeroplane was perforated by hundreds of high-energy objects shaped like cubes and bow-ties.

Really, cubes and bow-ties? Why would objects designed to penetrate be shaped like that?

The damage shown in images below of the plane cockpit area do not match:

1. https://www.indiatoday.in/fyi/story/mh17-east-ukraine-malaysian-airlines-flight-kuala-lumpur-amsterdam-russia-17-july-2014-1024693-2017-07-17

2. https://tass.com/world/1081006

— 1. Dirty marks around cockpit windows (not at 2.)
— Vertical hole under first window in 1. straighter than vertical hole in 2.
— 1. Small hole under right vertical frame of second window (2. much more extended hole and the start of the hole a different shape to hole in 1.)
— 2. Great deal of crinkling at red and blue stripes (1. much less so)

Admin1
Admin
Admin1
Jan 13, 2020 3:37 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Why do you think the image doesn’t show actual body parts?

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 14, 2020 10:13 AM
Reply to  Admin1

I thank you for your question, Admin, to help me clarify why I think the bodies look fake. To scrutinise the image better I have put it into Word and then cropped on each body and enlarged.
http://nrt24.ru/en/news/russia-has-counter-evidence-regarding-probe-mh17-crash-ukraine

General: zero aspects of the bodies favouring real over faked
— Absence of any visuals of blood, severance edge or other indicators of violence (these are not essential but obviously their absence does not help in making the image compellingly real)
— the flesh colour is too even and doesn’t really look the colour of flesh

Exposed buttocks body: of the exposed buttocks, the one on the right is not flesh-coloured but nor does it look bloody
— it’s difficult to explain the colour of the thigh – it doesn’t look convincingly like bruising
— the head is very undefined

Person with pink hair on right: head very poorly defined, bottom half poorly defined and right and left shoulders don’t look at right angle and distance.

Person on right with trousers pulled up: the lower legs are very undefined and we have to wonder why the person has their trousers pulled up

Bottom-half of body on left in grey pants: the thigh, lower leg and foot of the on-top leg don’t look as if they’re sitting at quite the right angle to each other

As always, it’s a matter of the totality of points. You may argue that poor resolution or other things can explain my points but then we have the anomalies in the cockpit images, don’t we? (Also, I think you’ll agree that you could not argue for “real” over “fake”, could you? You couldn’t argue it the other way.) I have no doubt whatsoever that if I looked further I’d find more anomalies. Perhaps that would be an interesting exercise for you to do, Admin. How about looking to see if you can find any more anomalies yourself – or perhaps if you look you’ll find, instead, evidence that supports the media story and is at odds with my hypothesis. Now that would be a turnup for the books, wouldn’t it?

The facts are indeed sacred, aren’t they? And I think that what I have said against the reality of both flights PS-752 and MH-17 is surely enough for those who believe in the sacredness of facts to do their own research to determine whether the facts are:

PS-752 crashed in Tehran / the PS-752 crash was faked
MH-17 crashed in the Ukraine / the MH-17 crash was faked

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jan 14, 2020 11:33 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Petra

Your cynicism appears to be mainly based on lack of definition in the carcases and incongruous angles of limbs. Really?? Unfortunately, that’s what happens when bodies land after they’ve been blown up at 25,000 feet. And, to be blunt, the person you describe as having ‘pink hair’ appears to me to be someone who has been decapitated. I’d be far more suspicious if the bodies were complete, and laid out as if they were asleep, as you would appear to prefer.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 14, 2020 11:58 AM
Reply to  JudyJ

Judy, I think you misinterpret what I say, I don’t prefer to the bodies to be any specific way, just that they look real rather than fake.

Do you disagree with any of the following:
— Flesh colour too even
— Lack of definition in limbs and torso
— Strange that trousers are pulled up over knees

Do you think there’s anything about the bodies that looks real rather than fake and if you can’t find anything that does what significance do you give to that fact?

Admin1
Admin
Admin1
Jan 14, 2020 12:29 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

The problem is you need some form of comparison or criteria for what ‘look real’ means.

How many violently dismembered corpses have you seen in order to have a basis for comparison of ‘real’?

Would it be helpful to find some images you consider real and make a detailed comparison of why this one is not?

How about consulting some EMTs or other medical professionals to give their opinion?

If you really want to move forward with this and offer more than a non-professional person’s relatively uninformed & subjective ‘reckon’ those are some things to consider. It’s hard to take seriously when all you do is link to a pic and say ‘these corpses don’t look real enough to me’.

Just a suggestion. Don’t waste time arguing with me. I’m not telling you you’re wrong, just indicating how your argument could be made more plausible.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 15, 2020 12:30 AM
Reply to  Admin1

What your response indicates, Admin, is that you do not, unlike the OffG slogan says, treat the facts as sacred. If you did, you’d do your own research to satisfy yourself. You do not have a skerrick of evidence to supply to me that the plane crash was real. Not a single skerrick … and I have presented more than sufficient evidence that, at the very least, suggests the plane crash may well have been faked. The fact that that doesn’t act as a prompt to you to verify for yourself if a plane really crashed or not is clear proof you have no interest in verifying the facts on the matter. You are perfectly happy to publish articles that presume the crash was real and yet you have no argument for it being so, nor do you have any argument against it being fake. Fact free zone. An error you make is assuming that, a priori, the hypothesis “media story is true” has greater legitimacy than the hypothesis “media story is false”. Fatal assumption. If someone points out something that suggests the hypothesis you currently hold is incorrect then surely you need to pull out one thing at least that supports it.

Also, I reject your requirement that an EMD needs to be consulted and I also accuse you of strawmanning me (a favourite of yours). I state very specifically a number of things I believe favour fake over real, not just “my opinion”. There are two aspects here: bodies themselves and bodies injured in a plane crash. We all know what skin tone looks like and we all know what bodies look like. Two of my arguments are based on what everyone knows empirically for themselves and I think these arguments are compelling. No one has argued that the skin tone looks realistic or that the lack of definition in the bodies supports “real” over “fake”. Also, although I am not familiar with bodies injured in a plane crash I have seen bodies dismembered by a bomb and they were distressing images – you cannot find these images anywhere on the internet any more. I think we can safely say that dismembered bodies have a very distinctive look about them. Sure, it’s possible that the line of severance is somehow hidden from view under clothes, etc, and as I stated very clearly, I didn’t say it was a requirement for viewing. Nevertheless, it’s perfectly fair to say that without the severance shown the image is less compelling.

My method of making my case is this: identifying a number of elements that fit the “jigsaw” of the matter and ensuring that there are no elements that don’t fit the jigsaw. I do not believe that each element of itself needs to be validated by an expert necessarily, just a reasonable case for each element without any evidence that contradicts it. You, on the other hand, indicate no sense of “weight” of an argument. For example, you only asked me about what made me think the bodies were fake without any case for the bodies being real and without any acknowledgement of the glaring discrepancy of the two cockpit photos and the fact that they told us (with zero evidence of the specified objects) :

“The aeroplane was perforated by hundreds of high-energy objects shaped like cubes and bow-ties.”

I mean, seriously, how can you possibly explain this for a real plane crash? Have you ever heard of bow-tie-shaped and cube-shaped military projectiles? Wouldn’t the physics be against such phenomena. And why the two different types? What was the purpose of each type?

You conveniently ignore this compelling evidence and simply cherry-pick the fake bodies item … but for which, of course, you have no argument against, you simply raise questions and arguments (which I refute) against the validity of my argument.

As a heads up, Admin: in future, when you ask me about a single item in my evidentiary list I shall respond with a question on your opinion on the items you conveniently ignore. Please don’t interpret this responding to a question with a question as a way of avoiding your question – I never try to avoid questions – if a question seems “inconvenient” then that is simply an indicator to me that I may have to change my mind. I only wish to avoid getting sucked into your cherry-picking style of argument.

Admin1
Admin
Admin1
Jan 15, 2020 1:43 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

I think you need to re-read the last para of the previous Admin reply. Don’t waste your time arguing, we aren’t claiming you’re wrong.

The advice we gave in the preceding paras was meant helpfully. Re-read those also, viz – Produce some photo comparison with body parts you think look real so people can assess your point. Consult professionals used to working with traumatic dismemberment and ask how real they think the image looks. Armed with this basic data you may find it easier to persuade other commenters (not us Admins, we’re just functionaries) to take you seriously.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 15, 2020 3:35 AM
Reply to  Admin1

I read it Admin I read it. I know you’re not claiming I’m wrong (and I didn’t indicated that I thought you were), however, I refute the argument that you need to consult professionals and I gave my reasons.

Bottom line:

— I have made a case for crash being faked and presented compelling evidence – beyond the fake bodies, OK, beyond the fake bodies! – that no one has contradicted.

— After evidence being presented to you supporting the crash was fake you have not contradicted any of the evidence nor have you presented any evidence favouring the crash was real.

My claim still stands: when you do not verify a presumption challenged by certain evidence and that you yourself have no evidence to support you are not holding the facts sacred. If you think that that kind of behaviour does hold the facts sacred please explain.

You think the onus is all on me to make my case but this is false. As I say: a priori, “media story true” has no greater legitimacy than “media story false”. After all, the whole reason you set up is to show how the media lies, no? You are the one publishing articles, I’m just a nobody BTL. It is you making the claim that the facts are sacred so when you are faced with the situation where you have nothing to contradict the hypothesis presented with some evidence opposing the one you currently hold and you have zero evidence to support your hypothesis then it is up to you, not the nobody BTL, to verify the facts. You are the one publishing, not me.

The thing is I think the evidence I present is perfectly sufficient to prove my case. Fair enough, if you don’t but if you don’t that doesn’t absolve you of having to verify the facts, does it? That just means you need to do the work you think needs to be done.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 13, 2020 4:19 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

comment image

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 13, 2020 7:26 AM

This is a highly informative and interesting video re the Ukraine.

Antonym
Antonym
Jan 13, 2020 8:19 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Russian and Ukrainian (defense) industries were enormously interwoven: now that is all “kaput”.
The “winner” is the CIA, MI6 & co, for now. Weakening the Russian teddy bear is strengthening the Chinese Dragon, how clever!

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:12 AM
Reply to  Antonym

Zionist Sinophobia rears its ugly head, yet again.

paul
paul
Jan 14, 2020 1:19 AM

The Chinese Dragon is also being strengthened by all the stolen US military secrets sold to it by the Zionist Regime, their “greatest ally.”

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 13, 2020 7:25 AM

Iran proved to be the adult in this tragedy by having found out who shot the plane down, and announce it publicly with dignity, with responsibility, and with respect. It takes a real man to admit his error publicly and own it. It takes a truly civilized country to do the same. So, kudos to Iran.

Derek
Derek
Jan 13, 2020 11:33 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Iran proved to be the adult in this tragedy by having found out who shot the plane down, and announce it publicly with dignity, with responsibility, and with respect. It takes a real man to admit his error publicly and own it

Mate they knew who shot the plane down from the very beginning they trampled the evidence with bulldozers and when they realised they could not cover it up because of video evidence and the black boxes would betray their lie they had no choice but to own up.

Spin it anyway you like – whatever makes you happy i suppose.

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour
Jan 13, 2020 1:15 PM
Reply to  Derek

The bulldozers were used to scoop up the fine wreckage and take it to an indoor hanger, where it could be examined by experts from Iran and the Ukraine. The plane hit the ground with a full fuel load, resulting in a massive explosion and fireball. They have had a couple of snowfalls in Tehran since the crash, so if the wreckage had been left outside, it would have been nearly impossible to carry out an investigation.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 13, 2020 3:14 PM
Reply to  andyoldlabour

Sorry to ridicule your post, but it is an unusual air accident investigation, is it not, when the first instrument employed, while the wreck is still smoking, is a f****** bulldozer.

ZigZagWanderer
ZigZagWanderer
Jan 13, 2020 11:07 PM

Yeah these tinpot regimes are are just animals aren’t they ? Fancy moving the wreckage indoors for analysis and investigation. . What idiots.

I remember some chickenshit banana republic that bulldozed all the material from 2 consecutive plane crashes , then disappeared it all to the other side of the world where no one could see it .

Not only that , these jokers didn’t even investigate any of the crashes despite more than 3000 civilians killed.

Thank god we live in a civilised country .. eh ?

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:15 AM
Reply to  ZigZagWanderer

Yes-the Western Ubumenschen are nothing if not dedicated, fanatical and murderous racists and xenophobes.

paul
paul
Jan 14, 2020 1:22 AM
Reply to  ZigZagWanderer

Maybe they should have just followed US practice and freighted all the evidence to China to be melted down for scrap metal.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 14, 2020 3:20 AM
Reply to  ZigZagWanderer

Yeah these tinpot regimes are are just animals aren’t they ? Fancy moving the wreckage indoors for analysis and investigation. . What idiots.

In an air crash investigation, you don’t move anything until you’ve logged the position of everything in the locus. The relative position of aircraft parts is a clue in itself.

You certain don’t bulldoze what were certainly a mixture of human remains and broken aircraft. Give up trying to defend the indefensible. They shot down a civil airliner, and initiated what rapidly became an untenable cover -up.

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour
Jan 14, 2020 9:07 AM

You obviously missed the photographs of covered bodies at the crash site. Very strange that a so called “cover up” would result in an admission of guilt a few days later.
The US apparently thought Iran Air flight 655 was an F14 Tomcat, despite the fact that it was broad daylight and it was an Airbus A300.
The US awarded medals to the crew of the Vincennes.
How about Trump pardoning a war criminal who was given a 19 year jail term?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/eddie-gallagher-trump-navy-seal-iraq

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 15, 2020 4:01 AM
Reply to  andyoldlabour

Very strange that a so called “cover up” would result in an admission of guilt a few days later.

Not when Rouhani is in cahoots with Trump and it’s just a cover.
Scroll down to “So in regard to …” https://off-guardian.org/2020/01/12/downing-of-ps-752-already-being-used-to-smear-mh-17-skeptics/#comment-111693

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 15, 2020 4:06 AM

How hilarious! I didn’t know they came in with a bulldozer. The reason they came in with a bulldozer is that the crash was faked and there were no bodies to be concerned about. Just another item that supports the fake hypothesis: bulldozer!

For more points see: https://off-guardian.org/2020/01/12/downing-of-ps-752-already-being-used-to-smear-mh-17-skeptics/#comment-111238

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 14, 2020 11:53 AM
Reply to  ZigZagWanderer

On 9/11 (if that is what you were referring to) there were not over three thousand civilians killed. In fact, the overall total death toll (including the 19 terrorists) amounted to 2,996.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 13, 2020 4:20 PM
Reply to  Derek

comment image

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:13 AM
Reply to  Derek

And the Ubumenschen of the USA are still lying about 9/11, eighteen years later.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 13, 2020 4:23 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

I’m sure the families of those on the flight appreciate that and are placated.

What low standards you have. It seems it is perfectly ok to shoot down an airliner if you don’t lie about it for more than 24 hours…..

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 13, 2020 4:40 PM

Your snide strawman logical fallacy is quite insulting.
comment image

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:18 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Racist psychopaths can’t feel shame.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:17 AM

And the families of the victims of the Iranian airbus, what did they feel when George Bush I bragged that he didn’t apologise for America, and the captain and crew of USS Vincennes received a heroes’ welcome back in the USA, and numerous commendations, you nasty twerp?

paul
paul
Jan 14, 2020 1:24 AM

Your US chums did the same and lied about it for 20 years, not 24 hours.

Antonym
Antonym
Jan 13, 2020 4:51 AM

Simple question for MH17: who benefited by the shot down of a civilian airliner over this disputed area?
Russia: zero; more sanctions from the West and East.
Ukraine’s Poroshenko’s government : max.; more sanctions on enemy Russia from the West.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 13, 2020 5:34 AM
Reply to  Antonym

That rather assumes they did it on purpose, something precisely no-one is suggesting. Contemporary theories suggest it was mistaken for a Ukrainian troop transport.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 6:56 AM

It was certainly asserted by our PM, Abbott, that it was deliberate, and has been repeatedly implied that it was such, since. Moreover the Western MSM scum are often straying into snide insinuations of a deliberate Iranian attack, and the reason for the disaster, unceasing US aggression and the cowardly murder of Soleimani, plus repeated threats of ‘obliteration’ are, naturally, never mentioned. As Imperial stooges, as you too are, they are paid to see US aggression and bullying thuggery as absolutely normal and natural.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Jan 13, 2020 7:25 AM

That rather assumes they did it on purpose, something precisely no-one is suggesting. Contemporary theories suggest it was mistaken for a Ukrainian troop transport.

Unless the plane were flying through a war zone with its transponder off, that would be impossible. The BUK system, we are told, identifies the plane based on its transponder signal.

Derek
Derek
Jan 13, 2020 11:42 AM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

Makes you wonder why Iran’s Russian built missile system that bought this 737 down, (you know the one that took off from an Iranian airport) did not identify the plane from its transponder?

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 13, 2020 3:45 PM
Reply to  Derek

Touche

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Jan 13, 2020 4:41 PM
Reply to  Derek

I haven’t really researched the Iran case much, and probably won’t. Since the Iranians have now assumed responsibility, I consider the case to be effectively closed.

Ex Analyst
Ex Analyst
Jan 15, 2020 3:50 AM
Reply to  Derek

Because the SAM battery that fired the missile was older and didn’t have the capacity to read transponder data.

Antonym
Antonym
Jan 13, 2020 8:07 AM

No Ukrainian nationalist is suggesting that of course: doesn’t mean it is impossible. Remember ex-CIA head Pompeo’s “We lied, we cheated, we stole “? Others do similar.

How come the Ukraine secret services immediately had tapes ready to pin the blame on Russia: the wreck was still smoking?

Jen
Jen
Jan 13, 2020 10:07 AM
Reply to  Antonym

Erm, the tapes had been made a day or so in advance? Some people noticed the metadata on the tapes indicated the date stamp on the tapes had been fiddled with.

Matt
Matt
Jan 14, 2020 2:39 AM
Reply to  Jen

Not quite. I recall this strange claim a few years back, I first heard that Dugin mentioned it on a Russian TV show. This was caused by a bug in YouTube’s upload timestamp calculation. I don’t remember the exact cause for the software bug, it’s been a while, but I remember finding the bug discussed publicly on a bug tracker. I’ll try and find it and post it there.

Think about what you’re saying if this is true: the crash site was faked and filmed beforehand. Implausible. And it has a reasonable explanation.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 7:51 AM
Reply to  Matt

Are you brain damaged? Jen spoke of the tapes prepared beforehand by Ukronazi ‘intelligence’, not of ‘..the crash site…faked and filmed beforehand’.

Matt
Matt
Jan 14, 2020 2:16 PM

Those are the same tapes I’m talking about. It’s been a few years since I saw them, so I misremembered what they were about. But my original point still stands, regardless. The tapes showed the plane either falling from the sky or something else. Those tapes are NOT the SBU intercepts that the Dutch investigators used. Those are different.

Anyway, there was a lot of brouhaha at the time, because someone downloaded the raw video from YouTube and extracted its metadata, which showed the video having been uploaded a few hours before the crash.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 13, 2020 8:33 AM

Actually, contemporary theoris suggested it was mistaken for Putin’s plane because he was heading back to Russia and his plane’s colurs are similar to the MH17 plane.

https://www.rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:20 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

I rather think that it was quite deliberate, with the agit-prop to blame it on Russia prepared beforehand, by the Ukronazis and their Five Eyes and NATO controllers.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 13, 2020 12:06 PM

That would be the case if ‘contemporary theories’ are true. However, it could just as easily be that the fascists changed the course of the aircraft and shot it down on purpose.

Ex Analyst
Ex Analyst
Jan 15, 2020 3:45 AM

It’s been demonstrated repeatedly, and anyone with real knowledge of the situation is aware, a BUK system operates in a way that makes it impossible to ‘accidentally’ shoot down a target. You can’t lock on to the target without simultaneously identifying its transponder, air speed, everything. The BUK commander, whether rebel or UAE, would have known what they were shooting at.

The claim of accident is made to make the idea the rebels would do something so counter to their interest so seem more plausible. But it doesn’t wash.

Additionally the degree of training required to operate a BUK totally rules out the idea a random rebel unit just found one or got given one by evil Russia and started taking pot shots. That’s more disinformation put out to cover the huge probability the perps were the UAE, because they had motive means and opportunity when the rebels did not

Stephen Morrell
Stephen Morrell
Jan 13, 2020 4:50 AM

The US is responsible for this overall and no-one should ever forget that, because, as pointed out by all and sundry, this was actually a state of war, albeit undeclared which is the only way the cowards in the imperialist west behave these days. During a war situation, most especially when hostilities first erupt, anything and everything can happen in the fog of war.

More nefariously, however, according to a Russian military website there is evidence that the US changed the call signals of the Ukrainian airline to make it appear as a military craft coming at the missile battery. The US has a long track record of changing aircraft call signals.

There was also evidence of cyber attacks on Iranian radar systems and this may have also occurred with the Ukraine airline because apparently it made an unscheduled U-turn mid-flight. Everyone is aware of US cyber attacks on Iranian facilities.

Finally, according to the Pentagon, several US military aircraft were in Iranian airspace at the time of the Ukrainian jet going down.

See:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/according-to-russian-experts-the-us-bears-partial-responsibility-for-the-human-error-which-caused-the-ukrainian-plane-crash/5700373

Max Parry
Max Parry
Jan 13, 2020 5:48 AM

Nice to see us agree for a change

Stephen Morrell
Stephen Morrell
Jan 13, 2020 7:14 AM
Reply to  Max Parry

On this issue, it’s hard also to disagree with the assessment of Bernhardt at Moon of Alabama that the (isolated and somewhat antiquated) anti-missile/aircraft unit responsible nonetheless acted rationally and made no ‘unforgivable’ error:

Under these circumstances – highest possible alarm level, current warnings of hostile cruise missiles, unknown target flying towards a presumably military objective, lack of communication, little decision time – the operator of the Tor system did what he was trained to do.

See: https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/01/was-the-shootdown-of-the-ukrainian-airplane-near-tehran-really-a-mistake.html#more

Iran must be defended against the imperialists, and to that end urgently needs the S400 system to effectively prevent US and Israeli attacks and minimise the chances of repeating a similar incident as this.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 6:59 AM

Moreover, with the US controlling numerous traitorous assets inside Iran, the chance that the missile operator might be such an asset, is not negligible. The whole thing is so suspiciously opportune for the Great Satan, that nothing can be totally dismissed. The involvement of the Ukronazi stooge regime makes the situation smell all the more.

Stephen Morrell
Stephen Morrell
Jan 14, 2020 5:55 AM

See my reply to Max above. Occam’s razor would tell us that below-average chess play rather than 8-dimensional chess explains this better. This isn’t to say that other factors weren’t at work (ie, the usual US jamming, cyberwarfare operations, etc), but with little time to decide under the stress of a life-or-death decision and under conditions of high uncertainty, anyone would have decided he did regardless of whether he was an MEK supporter, or whether the airline is owned by a Ukrainian oligarch, etc, etc.

milosevic
milosevic
Jan 15, 2020 12:32 PM

It’s hard to believe that air-defence units operating near an international airport wouldn’t have established procedures for distinguishing between civilian air traffic and hostile military flying objects.

Why did these procedures fail at this exact moment, after successfully not shooting down civilian airliners in the days, weeks, and years preceeding?

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 14, 2020 3:25 AM

If Tehran was a war zone, why was the airport not closed?

Stephen Morrell
Stephen Morrell
Jan 14, 2020 4:47 AM

If you read the MoA link above, Bernhardt views that as a tactical decision: by closing it the Iranians would have shown weakness and so chose to leave it open to show the US they weren’t going to be intimidated. But also, as I point out above, at the beginning of a possible war, anything is seen as possible and anything can happen. Until the first salvo is ‘fired’ no-one knows how or when it will happen, where it will come from, and so on.

One can only assume that if the Ukrainian airline were indeed a missile, then the airport would have been shut down to domestic flights and warfare proper engaged in.

Antonym
Antonym
Jan 13, 2020 4:02 AM

Here MH17 seen by Dutch non MSM bloggers: https://www.deblauwetijger.com/mh17-research-is-flawed/
They agree that MH17 was downed with a Russian made BUK. Both Ukraine and Russia had these. Who fired it and why (another foul up like ps-752 or more)?.

One step back: why had the Ukraine not closed this airspace long ago for civilian flights as there were various plane attacks before? Why were Dutch and Malaysian aviation authorities blind to this too?

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Jan 13, 2020 7:32 AM
Reply to  Antonym

I understand that the original flight path of MH17 would have had the plane flying over the Black Sea, about 200 miles south, rather through Donbass where a war was raging. Who changed the plane’s flight path and why?

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 13, 2020 8:37 AM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

As I remember it, the Ukrainian traffic control instructed to change its route, directing it towards the Donbass.

Jen
Jen
Jan 13, 2020 10:03 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

In addition to the change of route, Kiev ATC told the flight crew to fly the plane at 10,000 metres (30,000 feet) instead of 11,000 metres (31,000 feet) as they had requested. Dnepropetrovsk ATC confirmed MH17 had to fly at 10,000 metres. At 10,000 metres, MH17 was flying in Ukrainian airspace and in a war zone. At 11,000 metres, it would have been flying in international airspace and Malaysia Airlines would not have had to pay airspace tax to Ukraine.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Jan 13, 2020 4:39 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Yes, exactly. But why? Isn’t that just a bit suspicious?

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 13, 2020 2:18 AM

Evidence favouring the crash of the Ukrainian airline flight, PS-752, being a faked event rather than real. Also, in tandem with that hypothesis is that they make it clear it’s fake with obvious signals and obvious lack of realism. Please reply with comments arguing that the points below are faulty and/or with evidence favouring real over faked.

1. According to their website, UIA does not run scheduled flights out of Tehran, yet Wikipedia tells us that PS-752 was a scheduled international passenger flight from Tehran to Kiev.
https://book.flyuia.com/

2. There are no images of the crashed plane that convincingly show a white plane that looks like this:comment image

3. There are images that actively contradict images of the image above, eg, an image provided by CNN of a green indeterminate object: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/07/middleeast/plane-crash-iran-intl-hnk/index.html

4. The footage of the plane crashing is not convincing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxTSWScqhW0.

5. Trump says: “It was flying in a pretty rough neighbourhood”. These words are nonsensical in relation to a plane. https://youtu.be/vYFAeJDEE8k

6. The man standing next to Trump (Point 5) ostentatiously hides a smile. (I do not regard this as “duping delight” but deliberate pretence of smiling and hiding it (these people are consummate actors after all) – a typical sign of staged events.)

7. There is a CBC interview with Ramin Alaen in Toronto whose wife delivered a baby on January 8 (the day of the crash) whose sister, Iman, and her husband, Paniraz, both allegedly died. Some of the anomalies it contains are listed below. youtube.com/watch?v=KCtPRid8KHY

— Paniraz is a woman’s name meaning “charming and beautiful”, from the words Pari (“fairy”, “extremely beautiful woman”) and naz (“charm”, “beauty”) – https://quranicnames.com/parinaz/

— Ramin says: “They were on holidays for two weeks and – I don’t know – somehow they rushed to go back … They were to arrive in Toronto at 3pm and then they had another flight arranged to take a cruise because Parinaz won the prize from RBC [seemingly, the company he worked for]”.
Comment: Why does Ramin express ignorance of not knowing the reason for their hasty return when he expresses the knowledge that they were going to take another flight from Toronto to go on a cruise. We might also ask if Iman really had to take that cruise at that time (and where it was happening in the North American winter) when her sister was having a baby.

— The interviewer then, seemingly confused, refers to “her” winning the prize although Ramin has said it was her husband, Parinaz, who won it.

— Then Ramin speaks of Iman having a conversation with her sister but refers to her as “he”. I know that it is common for foreign speakers to confuse pronoun gender but Ramin refers to Iman as “he” about 10 times which seems a little odd, especially considering that as soon as he starts speaking about his newborn girl, he refers to her no problem as “she”.

— Then the interviewer refers to Parinaz again, confusing him with Iman, and asks if Ramin and his wife had considered naming the baby Parinaz after his sister-in-law. Ramin responds that they did consider it. This makes sense if we consider that Paniraz is a girl’s name but not if we consider the fact that Paniraz is, allegedly, the sister’s husband. (At this point I stopped watching the interview but if others are interested they may find more anomalies in the last couple of minutes or so.)

Inference: This is a collusion between Rouhani (and his mates) and – at the very least – the US, Canada and the Ukraine and the seeming assassination (perhaps Soleimani agreed to disappear) was also a collusion.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 13, 2020 11:41 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Apologies, I sometimes misspell the name, Parinaz.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Jan 13, 2020 12:26 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

You still here Psyops Persona #149 spreading your nasty disinfo?
Just one example. You wrote “There are no images of the crashed plane that convincingly show a white plane that looks like this: comment image
Back in the worth of truth, your lies can be quickly dismissed here and here as just two quick references.

Dear Admin, I’m all for open and robust debate, but this constant deliberate disinfo by “Flaxgirl” is taking your liberties way too far.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Jan 13, 2020 12:27 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Back in the worth of truth

Sorry, that’s meant to be –

Back in the world of truth

Admin1
Admin
Admin1
Jan 13, 2020 3:33 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Petra is entitled to express her opinion, just as you are entitled to tell her she’s wrong. Try to refrain from ad hom tho. It doesn’t help anything along.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 13, 2020 10:47 PM
Reply to  Admin1

I’m really more about putting forward evidence to support hypotheses than expressing opinion although I do do that too. Of course, there is opinion involved in interpreting evidence or what seems to be evidence but in that endeavour I try to be as objective as possible and always admit where I have made an error when it is pointed out to me. Also, I put forward a number of points to support my hypotheses to make my case more compelling and, so far, in terms of entire cases I think I have a good track record. No one, for example, has responded to my challenge to provide evidence favouring the hypotheses opposing mine.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 13, 2020 10:59 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Thanks for pointing that out, Frank, I think it was the lack of white colour which immediately scratched the images you point out from consideration. Perhaps the tops of the wings are not white or the light just made the wing top not look white. I see the logo matches. Your accusation that it is deliberate disinformation does not apply though because obviously you can see for yourself I’m wrong – I just made a claim that doesn’t stand up. Also, while the wing is consistent with a UIA plane, a single wing is still not really compelling is it? And I made 7 points. Can you debunk any of the other 6?

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 13, 2020 11:05 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Thanks for pointing that out, Frank, I think it was the lack of white colour which immediately scratched the images you point out from my consideration. Perhaps the tops of the wings are not white or the light just made the wing top not look white. I see the logo matches. You don’t think I’m capable of making a genuine mistake, Frank – I could only deliberately supply disinformation? I’m glad you have my abilities in such high esteem. Nevertheless, while the wing is consistent with a UIA plane, a single wing is still not really compelling is it? And I made 7 points. Can you debunk any of the other 6?

andyoldlabour
andyoldlabour
Jan 13, 2020 1:39 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Here is the recent flight history of the Ukraine flights to Tehran.

https://www.airportia.com/flights/ps752/tehran/kiev/

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 13, 2020 2:04 PM
Reply to  andyoldlabour

Thanks for that, Andy. I wonder why you can’t seem to book a flight through the UIA website from Tehran then. The history for PS-752 on 8 January, however, doesn’t match what Wikipedia tells us or alleged reality.

History says:
Scheduled Departure: 5:15
Departure 5:15
Scheduled Arrival: 8:00
Arrival: 7:30
Status: Unknown

So while we have the status of “Unknown” it does actually state that the plane arrived at 7:30 and departed at scheduled time while Wikipedia says it departed at 6:12 and final data received at 6:14.

Flight 752 was scheduled to take off at 05:15 local time (UTC+3:30), but was delayed. It departed Stand 116 and took off from Runway 29R at 06:12:47 local time and was expected to land in Kiev at 08:00 local time (UTC+2:00).[14][2] The final ADS-B data received was at 06:14:45, less than two minutes after departure.[15]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines_Flight_752

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 13, 2020 4:25 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

comment image

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Jan 13, 2020 10:39 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

I thank you for your question, Admin, to help me clarify why I think the bodies look fake. To scrutinise the image better I have put it into Word and then cropped on each body and enlarged.

General: the flesh colour is too even and doesn’t really look the colour of flesh

Exposed buttcks body: of the exposed buttocks, the one on the right is not flesh-coloured but nor does it look bloody
— it’s difficult to explain the colour of the thigh – it doesn’t look convincingly like bruising
— the head is very undefined

Person with pink hair on right: head very poorly defined, bottom half poorly defined and right and left shoulders don’t look at right angle and distance.

Person on right with trousers pulled up: the lower legs are very undefined and we have to wonder why the person has their trousers pulled up

Bottom-half of body on left in grey pants: the thigh, lower leg and foot of the on-top leg don’t look as if they’re sitting at quite the right angle to each other

As always, it’s a matter of the totality of points. You may argue that poor resolution or other things can explain my points but then we have the anomalies in the cockpit images, don’t we? (Also, I think you’ll agree that you could not argue for “real” over “fake”, could you? You couldn’t argue it the other way.) I have no doubt whatsoever that if I looked further I’d find more anomalies. Perhaps that would be an interesting exercise for you to do, Admin. How about looking to see if you can find any more anomalies yourself – or perhaps you’ll find, instead, evidence that supports the media story and is at odds with my hypothesis. Now that would be a turnup for the books, wouldn’t it?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Jan 13, 2020 1:20 AM

Is this now a Matt thread? What a complete and utter cauc.

Martin Usher
Martin Usher
Jan 13, 2020 12:56 AM

Before everyone goes off the deep end with theories, plausible or otherwise, I recommend reading the biography “A Man Called Intrepid”. The book is also, to quote the Google Books summary, “a chronicle of the world’s first integrated intelligence operation”. The story is mostly WW2 era and personally I don’t think it was the first by any means, it was just that during WW2 finally all the components came together along with the communications needed to make it all work on a global scale. (We’re all aware of individual stories such as “The Man that Never Was”, the story of Operation Mincemeat, but what we’re unprepared for was the level of coordination and planning that went into total war — its almost as if the actual military bit was a sideshow.)

Charlotte Russe
Charlotte Russe
Jan 13, 2020 12:31 AM

I wonder how many heads of government who died in aviation accidents were actually assassinated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heads_of_government_and_state_who_died_in_aviation_accidents_and_incidents

Max Parry
Max Parry
Jan 13, 2020 2:36 AM

On that topic I recommend the stunning recent documentary “Cold Case Hammarskjöld ” about the death of former UN Secretary General Dag Hammarskjöld in a mysterious plane crash in Rhodesia/Zambia in 1961.

Antonym
Antonym
Jan 13, 2020 2:08 PM
Reply to  Max Parry
richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:24 AM
Reply to  Antonym

Zia was terminated for being an Evil swine.

tunde
tunde
Jan 13, 2020 12:29 AM

We now have “BBC News: In Brief” reporting that “military sources” say that 4 Iraqi soldiers have been “wounded” in mortar attacks on a US military base at Balad. “Similar attacks on the base in recent months have been blamed on Iranian backed militias in Iraq”….. As others have noted, the potential for exploiting false flag attacks to reverse the Iraqi parliamentary resolution to expel foreign troops is huge. We are already deep into a psyops cycle to reinforce why troops need to be kept in Iraq, despite it’s parliament’s approval.
The shoot down of the Ukraine airliner was a tragedy and my condolences to.the families of those that lost loved ones. The exploitation of the tragedy is another thing, and the images of protesters ripping posters of Soulemani from walls should be compared to the huge crowds that turned out to mourn his passing. Even the fact that people are protesting should be signal enough that the Iranian regime is not as repressive as portrayed in Western media. It seems awfully like Iran is been fitted up for regime decapitation strikes at the most convenient opportunity.
Should the mullahocracy collapse, would not the chances of rogue regime elements “gift” any plethora of ME based terror organisations a “dirty ” low yield tactical device?
I am just positing that regime collapse is possibly a nightmare scenario for everyone globally.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Jan 12, 2020 11:31 PM

Let us play devils advocate.

When before the Generals assassination,there were demonstrations in Iran, were they flown in?

Were the passengers those?

Is this a direct message?

RobG
RobG
Jan 12, 2020 10:36 PM

Off G is now obviously a security services operation.

If you want to talk about anything ‘real’ here you are not allowed to.

It’s a total joke.

eddie
eddie
Jan 12, 2020 11:38 PM
Reply to  RobG

Well, you are allowed to, certainly, but this unending 5-eyes lying yada yada yada news cycle has surely surpassed its sell-by date. A sort of cottage industry for stale journalism.

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 13, 2020 12:08 AM
Reply to  RobG

If I publish my Zombie Apocalypse Peanut Butter Raisin & Oatmeal Chocolate Chip cookie recipe you will know the end times has arrived & Off-G is yet just another Judas Iscariot liar’s Court Jester.

P.S. My Zombie Apocalypse cookies can last for 100 years without refrigeration.

MOU

mikael
mikael
Jan 12, 2020 10:26 PM

Yeah, hehe, they are cocky, OffG, and what, this ONE event, compared to what, MH 17, and used to smear anyone whom isnt buying the propaganda we have been spoon feed thru centurys, uh….. sorry, Brigadears or Unit creeps, this was an tragic event, period, and to this day, I have stil to see an video that actually convinses me it shows what happened, they simply dont have it, period, and since the admittion witch the Iranian Mil. F. took the responcebility, havent changed jack shit, creeps, nada, zip, etc.
I even question the admittion, but leaves it there, since this is an accsindent witch is more or less closed, but some questions stil remains, like the transponder etc, to the range of the battery, and if this charts are true, it shows that for the comander of the millisile battery was indeed surpriced, because of the range of the radar in question, and the timing of the cutt off by the plains transponder, and when the plain crossed into the air speace of the radar attached to the battery, you cant blame the field comander, if anything, th overall situation, I blame the imperial banana republic for everything, period, this is an classical case off two faults witch overlapped, and the event made this tragic to happen, etc, but for now, I take the Iranians words as good enough and see no more reasons to dig further, apart from learning its of no more use.
Remeber EW etc. and the Russians back stabbing of the Iranians.

Then we have the HarsbaRats crawling everywhere this days, yeah, scared huh, buuuhuu.
I really dont care, after years of reading, watching, and comenting, things sometimes solves it self, this time, because of circumatansial evidences witch showed nothing, apart from the missile shoot, the event was not clear, and then to crisicise people for debating/speculating is for me an sign of something we have encountered for years, nothing new, and I remeber the so called Gass attack in Douma, where I was one of the first to point out the facts, no speculation, just plain bloody facts, and it took me 20 sec to see that, and yet we where attacked for been everything, like Dicktatore huggers to Russian trolls, and so on.
What anoys them is this, I can challange you creeps, come up with some more, I dont care that much about the Malaysian dowing, since its stil obscured and when the Dutch witch have lied about and been coopong with the scums of this earth for years, and I mean centurys, dont even think their rants about this event changes anything, it dont, and to be frank, our/mine track record, since I have been forced to bragg I will do so, is for them something they never can mach, I am their nemesis, I have ripped so much idiot proprganda to shreads that I have forgotten most of them, and they dont like me and others, since I have done something must didnt do, broke an barrier, made people able to see, to then write about what they have seen, everything from FF to so called terror attacks, fake blood to fake attacks, faked circumstances to fake evidences, for years.

They are now attacking Iran, and right now, even after Trump threatened Mhadi, where Trump admitted snipers used on the Iraqis in the protesteings that happened some weeks ago, nice one, huh, and now, this inside Iran where He warned about snipers, ugh…
Yeah, if you morons wanna debate, take an pick, I am more than ready, I am pissed off, not because of their so called debunkings, like the neo-Cunts and the idiot pack, whom even managed to debunk the Palestinians etc, dont impress me at all, I only recomend people to take your time, read and compare, watch everything, and even down to frame by frame, never trust anyone, trust only on what you persive, and even then questin it, since we are creatures of preseptions we depends and take whatever we persive as an abolute, witch is nowhere near the truth.
I love an good fight, so, bring it on, creeps, dont think you can itimidate us just because of this, I have no problems with admitting wrongs, since its an part of life, adults do that, cocky little rats never do, and as said before, until other narratives/explanations comes I stick with what I see and think, and I have warned people, we make mistakes, because eventually, since non of us are direct vitnessing this events but depends on second hand info, we have to take what we gett.

I can even give you something to chew on, hehe, Quantum physics is to day, hoggwash, pure bollocks, and thats it, reality is consisting of 3 parts, and I dont talk about secondary effects as Time or Matter, witch are not fundamental, but 3 things desides everything.
Ether(the latice)=mind(consciousness)=light(magnetism).
Matter is compressed ether, light is what makes perseptions real, mind is what cooperates with light and that is what creates matter and time, since we are biologiacl begins.
I have been on the other side, son, I know what I talk about, you have no f…. idea of anything.
The trinity.

SO, OffG, never doubt your self, never ever do that, better admit wrongs than just ignore it, their track list of lies, desite, faking etc is lightyears long, and that we sometimes go into wrong directions dont change anything, we are not the ones whom makes this events happen (wars), to me the Iranian dowing is squarly on the Imperial banana republics shoulders , nobody elses.
But this are My humble opinions, I have to cutt some corners but you get the rant.
Yeah, creeps, as I have already said, let them have their field day, poor pricks dont have that often, and thru the years, they have been bitch slapped so many times they have gone numb/dumb, and it shows, earn instead of the way their rethoric works, how the write, how the insist on what they think or writes is Tha Fact, and dont rush, and never forget, this is an war or words, either you are with us or you are aginst us, thats where we are now, and they, the scums of this earth, the ZATO and the banana republic wants us to suck up everything, without resistance or any kind of critical thinking.
There is more, but I dont bother, but I have no problems with kicking Russians, I have even done that, and on top of it, have more, much more, but as before, I have little or no reasons for just throwing shit, unless I see it fitt, and to this day, the majore problem isnt Russia, but the west.

Have an nice day, and cheers.

peace

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 10:34 PM
Reply to  mikael

Oh God. I think this guy is suffering from Schizophrenia.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 12, 2020 11:38 PM
Reply to  Matt

Grow up you idiot, you’ve been abusing all and sundry yourself while whining about any stick you get:

Please stop harassing me and calling me names. Where are the moderators here? It’s a total sh*t show because of you trolls.

You’ve spent all day on here with your red herring about what the Malaysian authorities may or may not have said which proves nothing, they might all be lying, one of them might be lying, they might have been misreported or they might be telling the truth. It still doesn’t prove who shot down the aircraft. However, you’ve spent the whole day saying it does and when people disagree with you you accuse them of being schizophrenics etc. The same thing happens whenever you make an appearance here, you only come to argue against articles by seeding the thread with pointless tangents and seem to enjoy arguing with people but then complain when they are rude to you and whine about it.

Matt
Matt
Jan 13, 2020 1:18 AM
Reply to  lundiel

red herring about what the Malaysian authorities may or may not have said which proves nothing, they might all be lying, one of them might be lying, they might have been misreported or they might be telling the truth.

You clearly can’t read. This isn’t a read herring. The author of the article mentioned the Malaysian statements, as evidence that the investigation is flawed. I debunked them.

I directly quoted various officials involved in the investigation, to prove that Mahathir is stating incorrect information.

pointless tangents

Everything I’ve said is directly relevant to this article. Have you even bothered reading the article in full, or did you jump straight into the comments section? In my main comment here, I even quoted the part of the article I was addressing.

Instead of coming up with excuses to discredit me, try and stay on topic: Russia lied about MH17, tried to discredit the investigators with easily-debunked smears, lied multiple times, and you alt-media connoisseurs swallowed it all up. I suspect that is the reason behind your post.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:03 AM
Reply to  Matt

‘I debunked them’. Arrogant twat with it.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 13, 2020 8:09 AM
Reply to  Matt

You clearly can’t read.

Here you go again, starting with an insult.

I debunked them.

You did no such thing. You copied and pasted reported comment, from an unreliable third party with an agenda.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 13, 2020 8:17 AM
Reply to  lundiel

I will end this pointless exchange with Antonym’s comment from above:

Simple question for MH17: who benefited by the shot down of a civilian airliner over this disputed area?
Russia: zero; more sanctions from the West and East.
Ukraine’s Poroshenko’s government : max.; more sanctions on enemy Russia from the West.

Zoran Aleksic
Zoran Aleksic
Jan 13, 2020 9:59 AM
Reply to  Matt

Oh, the great De-bunker. Russia smeared and lied, but you saw right thru them.

eddie
eddie
Jan 12, 2020 11:41 PM
Reply to  mikael

too long; didn’t read

Gall
Gall
Jan 12, 2020 9:33 PM

Aside from the false flag aspect is the fact that “Ol’ Glory” as it’s called by those who” take the last refuge of a scoundrel” is really the original flag of the East India Company dressed up with a field of stars instead of the St. George’s Cross:

https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/Flags/gb-eic.html

Yet most Americans believe the myth that it was darned by Betsy Ross under quivering candle light and that “town destroyer” as Cornplanter or Kaiiontwa’kon of Seneca called genocidal George Washington chopped down a dad’s cherry tree and told him ’cause he couldn’t tell a lie or whatever.

In reality the American “Revolution” was just a real estate land grab under the guise of “Independence” by a bunch of shifty con artists AKA the “Founding Fathers” plagiarizing the Iroquois Confederacy’s Great Law of Peace before exterminating the original inhabitants.

Real purdy words that for the most part have been completely been disregarded by the Government when it conflicts with their “compelling interests”.

Anyway just ask the First Americans about the USG’s honesty and integrity. Actually Operation Northwoods is just the tip of a big ugly iceberg of lies and deception.

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 13, 2020 1:27 AM
Reply to  Gall

I would trust First Nations USA but not the D.C. bunch or their K-Street lackeys.

The official version of USA historiography is a blatant lie, you are correct.

MOU

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:05 AM
Reply to  Gall

‘I cannot tell a lie-the axe did it’.

Gall
Gall
Jan 13, 2020 8:10 AM

😀

Rhisiart Gwilym
Rhisiart Gwilym
Jan 12, 2020 8:43 PM

Time to dade out all ‘Matt’ posts, if you don’t want him/her/them to wilfully derail the direction of the comment conversations: Don’t Read. Don’t Answer, Don’t Engage – DR.DADE! A powerful shill/troll suppressor-medicine. To be used as soon as you reach the conclusion that ‘Matt’ – and all the others of that same treacherous ilk – are shills, amateur or paid, who post here in bad faith. There are so many of them about now, infesting the alt-media with the deliberate purpose of de-powering the alt’s mind-clearing effects against Western propaganda, that we just have to get used to offing them promptly, as soon as they show their authentic colours.

Don’t Read. Don’t Answer, Don’t Engage. With such crooks grinding unadmitted axes, it’s the only way. They don’t want honest discussion; just to sow irrelevant confusion, so as to run our energy into the sands with no useful clarifications or conclusions reached. That’s the narrative-control strategy of such nests of criminal liars as KnickersellerFlabbins/LyingTwat, MI5/6, the Institute for Blimpcraft, the LackIIs, and – of course – Tel Aviv Central. Avoid that by denying all contact: D.R.D.A.D.E

Altogether now: ” ‘Byeeeeeeee, ‘Matt’!”

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:34 PM

derail the direction of the comment conversations

That’s strange. Last I checked, this article was about MH17. And my comments here are all about… MH17. So what “derailment” are you talking about?

The funny thing is that there are more posts like yours – whining about imaginary shills – than there are posts of actual debate. No one has been able to address my comments about Mahathir and the documentary cited by the author. Not a single person.

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jan 12, 2020 10:09 PM
Reply to  Matt

“there are more posts like yours – whining about imaginary shills – than there are posts of actual debate”.

Matt, has it not crossed your mind that it could just be that many of us have been through the details of MH17 in great detail with you previously, and life is too short for most of us (seemingly not you) to cover the same old ground again. It’s time to just accept that we have our opinion, you have yours and it is rather redundant for any of us to indulge in repetitive ‘debate’ which clearly goes nowhere.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 10:27 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Judy, that’s completely reasonable and I would agree with you, if not for the fact that many people here have not gone through the details of MH17 in great detail. They get basic information wrong, like about SU-25s, the flight route, etc. They also quote Malaysian PM Mahathir, who himself has made incorrect statements debunked by his own members of government.

All I did was point out a few of these things, and I was attacked, extremely viciously. I’ve been on this website before, and the same thing happened then, but it seems to have gotten worse. I’m not paid by anyone, not a shill, not trying to detail any thread. Why can’t folks here disagree respectfully?

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jan 12, 2020 10:34 PM
Reply to  Matt

Why can’t folks here disagree respectfully?

I wouldn’t disagree with that. 😀

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 11:05 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Success! 😀

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:12 AM
Reply to  JudyJ

Sucked in, Judy. Matt is an arrogant disinformer, and quite insulting when he feels like it. These trolls often plead for ‘respect’, but it’s just a con. He deserves none.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Jan 13, 2020 1:17 AM
Reply to  Matt

Nah. U are a t**t. Not buying no fish today.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:10 AM
Reply to  Matt

Yes, but your comments are all arrogant, Russophobic, disinformation. You are Luke Harding, aren’t you.

Gall
Gall
Jan 13, 2020 8:14 AM

Are you saying that we shouldn’t feed the troll? But…but…it’s fun.

Rhisiart Gwilym
Rhisiart Gwilym
Jan 13, 2020 8:32 AM
Reply to  Gall

G, ask yourself: what’s more important? Taking part in actually enlightening discussions that tease out vital truths you won’t get from the lamestream liars; or succumbing to the bad faith purpose of the troll/shills and wasting lots of time and energy on sterile arguments leading to nothing but confusion and annoyance, and of course deliberately designed by the trolls to do just that.

Don’t let them sucker you. The way to destroy trolls is to starve them of all attention: Don’t Read. Don’t Answer, Don’t Engage. Since deciding about ‘Matt’, I’ve skipped over all his/her/their subsequent posts, taking in nothing of them whatever. Easy to do, and here I am still in the conversation, and without having to spend any attention at all on his/her/their bad-faith interjections. Simple and effective: D.R.D.A.D.E.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 13, 2020 4:29 PM

There is no discussion if you are afraid of losing to the opposing view.

An echo chamber isn’t healthy, and you shouldn’t seek it

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Jan 13, 2020 5:00 PM

comment image
comment image

Rhisiart Gwilym
Rhisiart Gwilym
Jan 13, 2020 6:46 PM

Agreed, CL. It’s a basic good principle to listen to opposing views, and discuss things with their proponents, simply to be civilised, and to try to get a liveable compromise between you. I do that constantly. Also, it helps to see what new insights might come up – for all parties – in the course of good-faith conversations.

OTOH, only mugs go on falling for wind-up ‘arguments’ that are obviously being pushed in bad faith, for unadmitted sabotage reasons. Really, only mugs go on allowing the trolls to sucker you into falling for the *deliberately* time- and energy-wasting nonsense with which they’re baiting you. Once you’ve identified them with fair confidence, you need to exclude them. Theres is a malignant, axe-grinding effort to negate the work of truth-seeking – and truth-telling – alt-news websites.

And we should take the bait? Voluntarily?

Identify the honest contributors and treat them with respect. Suss the wilful wreckers and off them, by the simple, universally-available means of ignoring them completely. Don’t Read. Don’t Answer, Don’t Engage. Takes a bit of self-discipline, but easy enough to do, once you’ve tried it. And it makes for a much clearer view of how the truth really sits. Bona-fide disagreeing viewpoints can be accommodated civilly. Usually you can learn something useful from them. But with no troll-shite cluttering your mind…

Cheers, CL! 🙂

Tallis Marsh
Tallis Marsh
Jan 12, 2020 7:47 PM

Has anyone mentioned the ‘Uninterruptible Autopilot System’ (UAS) that has been introduced into the global modern aircraft systems (since the mid-eighties if I’m not mistaken)? A few people on forums (current and recent past) mention its clandestine use by the intelligence/military services for geopolitical power projects? A good avenue to explore?

Important to keep in mind the context of the whole ‘system’ including the rhetoric — aka spin, exaggerations and even illusions and outright lies — we are fed by the MSM and gate-keeping ‘alternative media’ which obviously should be taken with a pinch of salt.

We must also never forget the following: that top foreign-policy depts & media/intelligence/military (including its ‘charity’/’medical aid’ supplies branches/orgs e.g White Helmets) in all countries now (and yes, I am also alluding to Iran as well as the US, Russia, Turkey, UK and many many more…) are infiltrated, co-opted and subverted to help the top globalist technocrats with the theatre, false flags and ultimately the ‘Hegelian Dialectic’ to gain their geopolitical hegemonic goals (read Victor Ostrovsky’s books, By the Way of Deception and the Other Side of Deception’ for more info if you haven’t already).

Last but not least, important to note the patterns and history of the use of the following tactics: doing things slowly and incrementally so as to not startle the populations; using ‘plausible deniability’; compartmentalisation of all important power-organisations/departments (easy way to keep a top secret agenda hidden); and hiring/promotion of only corruptible people or cronyism/nepotism/part of secret networks including ‘parachuting’ people already in the secret networks into the top policy-making positions (read books like, The Economic Hitman by John Perkins; and Managing Democracy, Managing Dissent by Rebecca Fisher for more info).

RobG
RobG
Jan 12, 2020 7:24 PM

Why have Off Guardian deleted this article…

https://off-guardian.org/2020/01/11/what-about-whataboutism/

Were you little CIA/SIS twats afraid of what I said about what’s going on in France at the moment?

#1984

(expect my post here to be deleted in very short order)

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 12, 2020 11:52 PM
Reply to  RobG

I think they must have been upset at my reference to D.C. politicians licking my balls in deference to my superior intellect over their own.

or it could have been my Death to America reference too, eh.

Methinks the whataboutism article was impression management for the cocksuckers & slimedouchery of the USA but it backfired on Off-G instead of assisting the scum of America that fellates the CIA whenever they have a moment spare like those haggard old Yale professors.

Death to America!

MOU

anon
anon
Jan 13, 2020 12:14 AM
Reply to  RobG
Frank
Frank
Jan 12, 2020 7:03 PM

Uh-oh. The keywords internet-trawling machine over at 77th Brigade headquarters must have been pinging its tits off today.

Mh-17.. Russia. Action stations! There are waters to be muddied and tired canards to be repeated ad nauseam.

And like the loyal subjects they were, the boys threw down their Andy McNabb novels, their army-issue Very Hungry Caterpillar readers, and in service to queen and country, grabbed their Bellingcat scripts and entered the fray, quite convinced in their unfathomable stupidity that they weren’t completely wasting their fucking time.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 7:18 PM
Reply to  Frank

Frank, my paranoid friend, if someone disagrees with you on the internet, it doesn’t mean they’re a paid government shill. I know that you and many others here are highly delusional, to the point where you deeply believe you’re always right and everyone is always wrong, but you are wrong. This website and its pro-Kremlin “sister blogs” are also all wrong about MH17. I posted several comments here addressing the false information given by the author of this terrible article. So far, not a single person has made a single counter-claim to what I’ve said.

Are you capable of doing that, or is all you can do is whine about “Bellingcat scripts”, like the Russian Foreign Ministry wants you to do? In a normal world, a government smearing a media outlet that has revealed embarrassing information about it would be a cause to rally for. But Elliot Higgins is no Julian Assange to you and your ilk. Why? Because he says stuff you disagree with.

There are more comments whining about paid shills on this website than actual counter-claims and health debate. Looks like Off-G’s moderators have failed miserably at fostering healthy debate, by leaving posts like yours up, with no condemnation of any kind.

RobG
RobG
Jan 12, 2020 7:50 PM
Reply to  Matt

You’re talking total rollocks, of course.

The assassination of General Qassem Soleimani was against all international law. Everyone knows this. It’s the first reason why your post is total rollocks.

Elliot Higgins/Bellingcat is a security services operation…

https://21stcenturywire.com/2019/12/28/post-truth-world-a-clear-opcw-cover-up-shielded-by-msm-and-bellingcat/

I await further rollocks that you will come out with.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:38 PM
Reply to  RobG

The assassination of General Qassem Soleimani was against all international law. Everyone knows this. It’s the first reason why your post is total rollocks.

Did I mention the assassination of Soleimani anywhere? Seems like you replied to the wrong comment. Or you’re imagining things.

Read my comment again. I mentioned MH17.

Elliot Higgins/Bellingcat is a security services operation…

Really? I read that article you linked, but it didn’t provide any evidence that Higgins is a “security services operative”. Could it be that after Bellingcat exposed the identities of 300 GRU officers, debunked Russia’s lies about MH17, exposed the suspects behind the Skirpal assassination, and documented evidence showing Russian soldiers in Ukraine, that the Russian government may have launched a smear campaign to publicly discredit Bellingcat?

Did this thought ever cross your mind?

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:15 AM
Reply to  Matt

When even the casual, but wide-reading, observer well knows Bellingcat’s provenance, your denial of his well established security links just gives you away. You are Rachel Madcow, aren’t you.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 7:56 PM
Reply to  Matt

Higgins is a proved liar and disinformer, as you plainly are, and in the pay of NATO, which I doubt that you are.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:39 PM

Higgins lied about MH17? Nope.

So far, only Russia has been caught doing that. But RT told you otherwise, and you blindly believe it.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:18 AM
Reply to  Matt

So there you lie about Brown Moses’ lying, and the jig is well and truly up.

Rod
Rod
Jan 12, 2020 10:35 PM

RobG and richard le sarc … be mindful of wasting your valuable efforts on trolling distractors. ‘They’ are only doing what they’re instructed to do, so, don’t be distracted.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:19 AM
Reply to  Rod

It’s therapeutic.

Gall
Gall
Jan 13, 2020 7:36 AM

Anybody who’d buy an F-35 can afford Matt 😂

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:28 AM
Reply to  Gall

I reckon ‘Matt’ is a Ukronazi emigre’ in Canada (as he states)just doing his Russophobe and Banderite duty to ‘Great Ukrania!!’. Just as his grand-pappy would have killed a few Jews, Moskalis, Roma or Poles, for the thrill of it all.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 12, 2020 8:01 PM
Reply to  Matt

I know that you and many others here are highly delusional, to the point where you deeply believe you’re always right and everyone is always wrong, but you are wrong. This website and its pro-Kremlin “sister blogs” are also all wrong about MH17. I posted several comments here addressing the false information given by the author of this terrible article. So far, not a single person has made a single counter-claim to what I’ve said.

Your claims are driven by your ideology. You haven’t moved the conspiracy onwards or changed anyone’s mind. You have shown incredible arrogance, as if you yourself are the fantasist liar Eliot Higgins (Brown Moses).

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:20 AM
Reply to  lundiel

The arrogant facade is one often adopted by recidivist liars.

Frank
Frank
Jan 12, 2020 10:01 PM
Reply to  Matt

How did you know I was referring to you?

Rod diplock
Rod diplock
Jan 12, 2020 10:25 PM
Reply to  Matt

Matt, generally, facts – when allowed to be aired, speak for themselves. I’m afraid that your pushing of Elliot Higgins’ barrow, speaks for itself.
I will leave you with … You can fool most of the people, most of the time. However, you can’t …
Have a great day.

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 12, 2020 11:57 PM
Reply to  Matt

I was born to troll but I’m always poverty stricken and broke. If paid shills really do get paid to shill then why have I not been approached to shill for the Russian Federation & the pinko commie bastards?

Heck, I’ve been a pinko commie bastard all of my life, eh.

If pinko commie bastard troll shills actually made money I would be a fucking billionaire, BuckO.

MOU

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 13, 2020 2:00 AM
Reply to  Matt

Peer-review, Brother Matt. No need to drag the Nanny State into refereeing discourse when you lose debate. Everyone on Off-G can see for themselves that you resort to ad hominem when you lose debates.

MOU

Frank
Frank
Jan 13, 2020 9:21 AM
Reply to  Matt

Matt, you must understand. When I imply that you’re paid for what you do, you should accept it as a compliment rather than a literal statement of fact. It would be nothing short of tragic if you believed what you’re saying rather than were being paid to say it. You’d have to be some kind of geopolitically illiterate dribbling imbecile.

And you’re not a geopolitically illiterate dribbling imbecile, are you, Matt?

Matt? What’s that on your chin, Matt?

hotrod31
hotrod31
Jan 16, 2020 10:12 PM
Reply to  Frank

Frank – it might be worth remembering that there are many who have a similar condition to Matt, i.e. they have not had a simple corrective medical procedure, yet. Unfortunately, in ‘his/her’ case, the ocular nerve is still connected to the anal tract, hence the shitty outlook. The simple procedure would correct the vomit-inducing distortions.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 6:26 PM

When was the last time this website issued a correction for an article?

Even the MSM does that and I thought you guys were better than them?

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:21 AM
Reply to  Matt

When was the last time you apologised when caught out lying? Go back as far as you like-to the womb if necessary.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 5:56 PM

Regarding Mahathir Mohamad, let’s look at his claims:

Claim #1: Mahathir said Malaysia should have been involved in the examining of the black box, as MH17 belongs to Malaysia and there were Malaysians passengers.

Debunking: This is nonsense as Malaysian representatives attended the downloading of the data in the CVR and FDR (black boxes), as well as listening session of the Voice Data Recorder. It’s written so in Appendix H of the DSB report.

Screenshot from Appendix H of the DSB report:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSB-appendix-H-CVR-FDR-investigation-768×594.jpg

Appendix A:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSB-report-Malaysia-attended-listening-sessions.jpg

Some statements from Transport Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai on July 24, 2014:

Three Malaysian representatives, including Depart­ment of Civil Aviation director-general Datuk Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, were part of the 10-man delegation that had flown to Farnborough.

Claim #2: He claimed that Malaysia was not included in the investigation at first and was only added months later. This was used as evidence that Malaysia was excluded from the investigation.

Debunking: During a conference on MH17, by the former director-general of the department of Civil Aviation Authority in Malaysia, Datuk Seri Azharuddin Abd Rahman, said that Malaysia was offered to lead the technical investigation into the cause of the crash of MH17. However Malaysia turned down the offer:

“We told them that we were too occupied with MH370, which happened four months before that. We were far away from the crash site,” he said.”

Azharuddin also shared with the audience that Malaysia downloaded and listened to the voice recordings from the black boxes of the aircraft before it was officially handed over to the Dutch authorities.

“We have downloaded and listened (from the recordings from the black boxes) as we wanted to know what exactly happened the last seconds of the incident.”

These words contradict earlier statements made by Mahathir. If only Mahathir had actually spoken to the people involved he would not believe Russia’s lies so easily. It’s embarrassing to let another country trick you into repeating lies when your own government has expertise capable of easily debunking said lies.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:40 PM
Reply to  Matt

10 downvotes, but not a single response to my comment debunking various claims from Malaysian PM Mahathir.

Is it because you don’t like it when your little bubble is popped and you have nothing to respond with but downvotes?

Max Parry
Max Parry
Jan 12, 2020 11:40 PM
Reply to  Matt

How can people who don’t accept the consensus be the ones who live in an echo chamber? I leave my “bubble” everytime I step outside my door and have to interact with MSM devotees like you

Matt
Matt
Jan 13, 2020 3:37 AM
Reply to  Max Parry

Ah, finally, the author appears. But instead of addressing my comment about the error-riddled MH17 documentary you cited and my comment about Malaysian PM Mahathir’s incorrect statements, you make a generic comment about me being a “MSM devotee”. What a professional response. Sure beat the pants off of me.

The MSM corrects information in its own articles, but the High and Mighty Max Parry is above all that, for you see, he is perfect. Anti-imperialists are always right. The MSM is always wrong. So no need to, you know, actually address criticism. Not when the commentators are just as misinformed as you, Max Parry.

Own up or defend yourself. Do you or do you not agree with my criticisms of your article?

Max Parry
Max Parry
Jan 13, 2020 4:44 AM
Reply to  Matt

“Own up or defend yourself.” Who the hell do you think you are? For starters, when Malaysia “turned down the offer”, Mohamad was not in office as Prime Minister. If you knew anything about Malaysian politics, you would know that the government at the time was under Najib Razak, a man who is now in prison for rampant corruption and more concerned with personally enriching himself than the interests of his country.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:24 AM
Reply to  Matt

There is something strongly reminiscent of Zionist lying in your zealotry, arrogance and effrontery, your chutzpah.

frank
frank
Jan 13, 2020 4:19 AM
Reply to  Max Parry

gee whiz
don’t even bother to feed the ‘MSM devotee’
its gottta be a ZIO/Langley piece of BOT
yikes

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 5:51 PM

Mohamad is featured in the excellent documentary MH17: Call for Justice made by a team of independent journalists which contests the NATO-scripted narrative and reveals that the Buk missile was more likely launched from Ukrainian Army-controlled territory than the DPR. One of Kolomoisky’s hired guns could also have been responsible.

The documentary, MH17: Call for Justice, by a former RT journalist, has been widely debunked. An independent Dutch blogger, who has followed MH17 from the very beginning in the most neutral manner, wrote several posts addressing the main points made in the documentary:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/category/nonsense-by-yana-yerlashova-max-van-der-werff/

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 7:28 PM
Reply to  RobG

Thanks for the link, this is a new documentary that I haven’t seen before. Like previous disinformation campaigns by Russia, this one draws upon yet another “whistleblower”, who can’t prove who he is or the veracity of the documents in his possession, which are obviously fake.

Interesting, this documentary by a brand new and unknown YouTube channel directly contradicts the testimony of another Ukrainian “whistleblower” paraded around Russian state TV a few years back. He claimed that he was an aircraft mechanic and saw an SU-25 fly off and return with its missiles missing, as well as overhearing the pilot “admit” he shot down MH17 by accident.

Don’t you love it when the conspiracy theories get contradictory?

This pseudo-documentary reminds me of yet another highly-polished documentary, “MH17 Inquiry”, released by a brand new YouTube channel. This multi-part video series also tried to discredit the official theory and was heavily promoted by this very website! Off-G even reposted the YouTube videos, not bothering with the factual inconsistencies in the documentary, or asking who paid for it. It was extremely well-shot, with high production values, and they even shot two separate versions for each language, English and Russian, with different presenters! The presenter in the Russian language version is Alexander Volovik Mikhailovich, former president of the oil and gas concern Bi-Gaz-Si. Volovik is a powerful figure in Russian business. He headed Bi-GAS-SI and participates in the leadership of a number of exchanges, banks and investment funds.

RobG
RobG
Jan 12, 2020 7:57 PM
Reply to  Matt

Don’t you love it when the conspiracy theories get contradictory?

No, I love it when you psychos from the security services come on boards like this and show what complete and utter criminal egits you are.

You are all going to be charged with crimes against humanity, and you are all going to be put in jail for a long time.

You do know that, don’t you?

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 10:29 PM
Reply to  RobG

No, I love it when you psychos from the security services come on boards like this and show what complete and utter criminal egits you are.

You are all going to be charged with crimes against humanity, and you are all going to be put in jail for a long time.

Rob, you are unhinged. I am not from the “security services”. I live in Canada, work as a software dev in the private sector, and am in my mid-20s.

And no, I won’t be going to jail anytime soon. Get a grip on yourself, you sound like a total schizoid.

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 13, 2020 2:28 AM
Reply to  Matt

I’m a CANUCK too, Matt. Stop hurling insults at people. They will think you were not socialized properly or that you have Abrasive Personality Disorder.

MOU

Matt
Matt
Jan 13, 2020 3:39 AM

Hey, nice to see a fellow Canuck!

As for insults, I’ve never insulted anyone here first. I’ve only insulted people in response if they insult me first. I think that’s fair, right?

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 13, 2020 4:09 AM
Reply to  Matt

Make your points without insult. People will downvote you if you constantly attempt to undermine perspectives of others by utilizing invective, vitriol, ad hominem, insults, et cetera. If someone is particularly rude it’s always okay to reciprocate in kind but not through a couple of threads entirely, eh.

You are young being under 25. Most here are older than 45 with some being as old as Austrian Peter, or maybe even older.

I’m pushing 60, Matt.

Get yourself educated outside of Software Development & Computer Science. People from those backgrounds are siloed professionally & socially from what I have determined.

Many Engineers & Computer Science geek types lack social skills. It’s best to go through the first 50 years of life learning from others without bitching at them. After 50 you are entitled to bitch at people if you are so inclined.

Follow Bing Crosby’s dictum in life which is ‘laugh and the world laughs with you; cry, and you cry all by yourself.’

Be a nice person in life and let the jerks in life identify themselves by insulting people in public, or private. Most socialized groups of likeminded individuals that read Off-G are social beings as opposed to being anti-social.

If you adopt antisocial manner of discourse you will alienate the reader. Good writers write with a reader in mind. If you want to make points with a reader don’t insult them to play one-upmanship because the people that read Off-G are attuned to that sort of gamesmanship or lack thereof.

MOU

Zoran Aleksic
Zoran Aleksic
Jan 13, 2020 10:30 AM
Reply to  Matt

No, that’s not fair. That’s plain bad manners. You can either refrain from further conversation with those who insulted you, or, if this is such a big issue with you, you can carry on adopting a more cultivated approach. Thusly, you stay to the point and not deviate, giving your statements a more dignified manner. Or the higher ground if you will.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:32 AM
Reply to  Matt

Canada? A Ukronazi emigre’ Russophobe fanatic. You should join the Azov Battalion and get vengeance for your grand-daddy’s loss in WW2. You just hate those Moskali ‘coloradoes’ (beetles) don’t you.

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 13, 2020 4:23 PM

My grandfather was First World War CANUCK Infantry in France when he lost his leg in battle. My dad was Second World War RCAF potato peeler & machine gun cleaner flat footed Coke bottle glasses nerd egghead.

I’m an orthodox Marxist anti-Capitalist heterodox Economics adherent.

Death to America!

MOU

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:30 AM

I’s talking to ‘Matt’.

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 14, 2020 12:53 AM

I thought that didn’t line up right for me to respond but I was not sure.

Did not mean to interlope.

MOU

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:30 AM
Reply to  RobG

It’ll never happen.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 8:09 PM
Reply to  Matt

Typical of Western disinformationists is the hysterical abuse of anyone who dares expose Western lies (is there ANY doubt that Western ‘intelligence’ does little but lie?)as a stooge of Russia. Everything in reality not approved by Langley or the Five Eyes, or Murdoch and the other Rightwing information gate-keepers, is ‘Russian disinformation’. It sure beats arguments and evidence, is purely McCarthyist and puts the Salem Witch Trials to shame.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:29 AM
Reply to  Matt

Your slimy and slanderous assertion that anyone who disbelieves your Western Russophobe agit-prop is a fool, tricked by the Evil Russkies, or a Russian supporting liar, is despicable. So much for your hypocritical call for ‘respect’. Are you a Ukronazi of some sort? Azov Battalion, perhaps.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:26 AM
Reply to  RobG

You’re pointing the finger at ‘Matt’s’ bosses, there.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 12, 2020 8:04 PM
Reply to  Matt

‘…in the most neutral manner..’-just like you, ‘Matt’. What bemuses is the fanticism of you wannabe Bellingrats to believe a Western intelligence system that lied about Saddam’s WMD, the ‘revolution of dignity’ in Kiev, the ‘Russian meddling’ in the 2016 US election, the nature and provenance of Daash in Iraq and Syria, the shooting-down of the Iranian airbus in 1988, the ‘Russian invasion’ of Georgia in 2008, let alone The Gulf of Tonkin Incident, ‘yellow rain’ in Indochina, KAL 007, 9/11, the JFK hit etc, etc, etc. Try as I might to imagine you a paid disinformer, I rather smell the aroma of a Western fanatic Russophobe, probably a Ukronazi of some species, or similar Western sub-fascist.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:45 PM

KAL 007

What are you smoking, lunatic? Korea Airlines flight 007 was shot down by the Soviet Union. Not only that, but just like Russia and MH17, they refused to admit they did it, creating various conspiracy theories about “false flags” and “strange flight route deviations” (sound familiar?). It wasn’t until many years later that they admit they shot it down.

How misinformed can you get?

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 13, 2020 7:34 AM
Reply to  Matt

More disinfo. KAL 007 was on a spy mission, co-ordinated with the USA that was flying spy-planes nearby. A plain set-up that sacrificed scores of people to the greater glory of The Empire. That should please a Ukronazi like you.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 13, 2020 2:43 PM

More disinfo. KAL 007 was on a spy mission

Don’t post bollocks, why would the US use a Korean 747, with a US Senator on board (no less), when they had Blackbirds and U2’s in their inventory?

The answer you are grasping for is, they wouldn’t.

KAL007 was a simple navigation error, the vindictive Soviets knew it was a passenger aircraft, and by the time they shot it down, it was back in international airspace.

The legacy of KAL007 is GPS. At the time, it existed, but was encrypted so only the US military could use it. Had the pilots of KAL007 had access to it, they would never have overflown Sakhalin.

Admin1
Admin
Admin1
Jan 13, 2020 5:00 PM

In your view why did KAL007 decline to respond to the Soviet pilot’s requests for it to change course? How did it manage to wonder so far into Soviet territory without realising it? And why do you believe the Soviets would shoot it down if they thought they had other options less likely to start a nuclear Holocaust?

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 14, 2020 7:15 AM
Reply to  Admin1

The Soviet pilots request for a change of course consisted of warning shots with armour piercing shells, which the KAL007 pilots almost certainly didn’t see.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 12:35 AM

Because, you cunning stunt, it was a Cold War propaganda mission, to paint the evil Commos as sub-human untermenschen.Your stinking and filthy verbiage ‘..the vindictive Soviets knew it was a passenger plane’ as well as a lie, reveals your fascistic pathopsychology perfectly. Sacrificing one Senator was no hindrance. These were, after all, the genocidal scum who had murdered four million Koreans just thirty years before.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 14, 2020 7:20 AM

Of course they knew it was a passenger plane, they intercepted it. The rows of lit windows, and the unique shape of a 747 preclude any other identification.

Apart from anything else, the testimony of the Soviet pilots is available online. You should look it up, your refusal to read anything that conflicts with your prejudice makes you look foolish.

richard le sarc
richard le sarc
Jan 14, 2020 8:00 AM

So, in your twisted hard Right psychopathology, Evil Soviet pilots shot down a passenger jet deliberately, for the sheer Communistic thrill of mass murder. You’re just projecting your own filthy psychology onto others, stunning.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 12, 2020 8:51 PM
Reply to  Matt

The “independent Dutch blogger” is anything but. He set out to debunk Russian claims. If you are independent, you concentrate on facts, not reported opinion. If there was conclusive evidence we wouldn’t be having this argument. You want to believe the propositions of the biased blogger…. you’re just as bad as those you claim are pro Russian. There is no conclusive proof either way, just claim and counter claim.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:41 PM
Reply to  lundiel

There is no conclusive proof either way, just claim and counter claim.

And that’s why Russia has succeeded in the information war. There is conclusive proof.

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 13, 2020 2:35 AM
Reply to  Matt

Russian Federation Intelligence Officers are much brighter than the Central Intelligence Agency Intelligence Officers. Pinko Commie bastards are always that much more intelligent than their USA counterparts because they went to real schools as youth whereas most Americans are taught via the public schools in the USA where
education is indoctrination to American lies of state instead of being real education with real history books not written by the CIA.

MOU

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 5:27 PM

Mohamad is featured in the excellent documentary MH17: Call for Justice made by a team of independent journalists which contests the NATO-scripted narrative and reveals that the Buk missile was more likely launched from Ukrainian Army-controlled territory than the DPR. One of Kolomoisky’s hired guns could also have been responsible.

The documentary, MH17: Call for Justice, by a former RT journalist, has been widely debunked. An independent Dutch blogger, who has followed MH17 from the very beginning in the most neutral manner, wrote several posts addressing the main points made in the documentary:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/category/nonsense-by-yana-yerlashova-max-van-der-werff/

Further, regarding Mahathir Mohamad, let’s look at his claims:

Claim #1: Mahathir said Malaysia should have been involved in the examining of the black box, as MH17 belongs to Malaysia and there were Malaysians passengers.

Debunking: This is nonsense as Malaysian representatives attended the downloading of the data in the CVR and FDR (black boxes), as well as listening session of the Voice Data Recorder. It’s written so in Appendix H of the DSB report.

Screenshot from Appendix H of the DSB report:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSB-appendix-H-CVR-FDR-investigation-768×594.jpg

Appendix A:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSB-report-Malaysia-attended-listening-sessions.jpg

Some statements from Transport Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai on July 24, 2014:

Three Malaysian representatives, including Depart­ment of Civil Aviation director-general Datuk Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, were part of the 10-man delegation that had flown to Farnborough.

Claim #2: He claimed that Malaysia was not included in the investigation at first and was only added months later. This was used as evidence that Malaysia was excluded from the investigation.

Debunking: During a conference on MH17, by the former director-general of the department of Civil Aviation Authority in Malaysia, Datuk Seri Azharuddin Abd Rahman, said that Malaysia was offered to lead the technical investigation into the cause of the crash of MH17. However Malaysia turned down the offer:

“We told them that we were too occupied with MH370, which happened four months before that. We were far away from the crash site,” he said.”

Azharuddin also shared with the audience that Malaysia downloaded and listened to the voice recordings from the black boxes of the aircraft before it was officially handed over to the Dutch authorities.

“We have downloaded and listened (from the recordings from the black boxes) as we wanted to know what exactly happened the last seconds of the incident.”

These words contradict earlier statements made by Mahathir. If only Mahathir had actually spoken to the people involved he would not believe Russia’s lies so easily. It’s embarrassing to let another country trick you into repeating lies when your own government has expertise capable of easily debunking said lies.

lundiel
lundiel
Jan 12, 2020 8:26 PM
Reply to  Matt

You’ve already posted this today. Do you think that reposting your opinion is going to change anything. Nothing you’ve posted is ‘fact’ it is opinion based on the opinions of people with axes to grind. The first link you provide brings up ‘page not found’. You are just spouting bollocks Eliot.

Matt
Matt
Jan 12, 2020 9:50 PM
Reply to  lundiel

It most definitely is fact.

I quoted the former director-general of the department of Civil Aviation Authority in Malaysia, Datuk Seri Azharuddin Abd Rahman.

I also quoted Transport Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai.

Both their statements prove that Malaysia had access to the black box data, and that Malaysia rejected being part of the investigation out of their own choosing, because they were busy with MH370, not because they were “excluded” as Mahathir and Lavrov have claimed.

Those are factual claims. Don’t be a coward and say they are “opinion”.

Also, thanks for pointing out that the second link is broken. Here’s the fixed version:

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/DSB-appendix-H-CVR-FDR-investigation.jpg

Now you have all the evidence you need.

You are just spouting bollocks Eliot.

You… think I’m Elliot Higgins? Please seek therapy.

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Jan 13, 2020 2:18 AM
Reply to  Matt

As one formally educated in Clinical Psychology, Experimental Psychology, & Psychotherapy, et cetera, do you find that ad hominem argumentation is satisfying as a personal means of collegial discourse with peer groups?

I find it interesting that you have been calling people ‘schizophrenics’, ‘in need of therapy’, ‘cowards’, ‘trolls’, et cetera. Could it be that you are merely projecting your own psychopathology off onto everyone that questions your failed logic?

MOU

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 12, 2020 5:03 PM

You were wrong about this, and you’re wrong about MH17. Own it.

When you find yourself, vicariously, hating the Americans more than the Iranians, to the extent that you’ll dissemble more than they do, you should look at what you’re doing with your life.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Jan 12, 2020 5:27 PM

You do realise 176 people would still alive if Trump hadn’t sanctioned the illegal hit on Qasem Soleimani?

We could go back well before this if you want to catalogue the list of terror inflicted by US neocons on Middle East states.

Its like the wild west out there because there is no such as international law, at least a form of law prepared to hold all actors to account – the only people punished, in fact tortured by the authorities, are publishers like Julian Asange or whistleblowers like Chelsea Manning.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Jan 12, 2020 5:35 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

By the way, for the Off-G London contingent, try and join us outside Westminster Magistrates Court tomorrow morning at 09:00 (Mon’ 13th)
Address: 181 Marylebone Road, London, NW1 5BR
Nearest Tube: Baker Street, Marylebone

Let’s make sure Julian Assange hears us.

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 12, 2020 5:44 PM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

I’m sorry? Are you saying the US is responsible for whomever Iran kills?

Is Iran not responsible for it’s own actions?

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Jan 12, 2020 6:09 PM

I’m saying there was a chain of events.

Human error is said to be a key factor in a volatile situation were Iran felt it was on a war footing because the US are now wacking their senior officials.

Its not as if America has not been responsible for violent regime overthrow in Iran before, for example installing a leader back in 1953 who was sympathetic to US oil demands.

I note your reticence on the legality of drones being used to murder senior Iranian and Iraqi officials while in Baghdad – I suppose you see this as bringing ‘peace and democracy’ to the Middle East?

CunningLinguist
CunningLinguist
Jan 13, 2020 2:36 AM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

I’m saying there was a chain of events.

No, you are absolving Iran of any responsibility. Having launched ballistic missiles at American positions, and with the suspicion that America might retaliate, a country that valued human life might be expected to close down civil aviation in the immediate aftermath.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Jan 13, 2020 6:57 AM

Still refuse to be drawn on the matter of illegal drone killings, eh?

But surely even imperialists with their head stuck in the sand must realise Donald J Trump calling somebody a ‘very bad man’ does not legitimise the kind of brutal hit that would make the head of a ruthless drug cartel feel slightly envious.

Anyway, I am not attempting to absolve Iran’s actions, I have merely added layers of context – besides, they have already claimed ownership of, and apologised for their actions.
I mean you do realise extreme events like this do NOT take place in a political vacuum, don’t you?

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