86

Fascism in Ukraine: the conspiracy of silence

Joseph Altham
The rise of the far right in Ukraine is one of the most disturbing trends in 21st century Europe. But it’s a story you rarely get to read about in the British press.

These days, the mainstream media does not have much to say about Ukraine. And when Ukraine is mentioned, the main focus tends to be on Ukraine as it relates to the latest American political scandal, rather than on Ukraine itself. Six years ago, the revolt in Kyiv put Ukraine at the top of the news agenda, but now the papers have gone quiet.

This lack of interest in Ukraine is surprising, because Ukraine has some big stories that you would expert journalists to be reporting. The country has been going through a violent upheaval, and the fighting in Ukraine’s eastern region still continues.

Supposedly, the reason for all the bloodshed was to secure Ukraine’s European future? So how’s that project going today? Not well. Ukraine is still a long way from full membership of the European Union, and remains one of Europe’s poorest countries.

The ruins of Donetsk airport, December 2014 (Photo: Wikipedia)

Clearly, Ukraine is not working out. Of course, the nationalist uprising in Kyiv did achieve one of its core objectives: the termination of the old partnership with Moscow. But the uprising also aimed to end corruption in Ukraine and curb the power of the oligarchs. On both counts, Ukraine’s political elite has performed badly. Ukraine’s corruption rating is still poor, while Volodymyr Zelensky, Ukraine’s current president, was helped into power by the influential billionaire, Ihor Kolomoisky.

All in all, Ukraine’s “bright future” seems further away than ever, and the biggest losers from Ukraine’s pro-Western course have been the Ukrainian people. But the Western press long ago settled on the story that Vladimir Putin is the big bully, and Ukraine has been cast in the role of his victim.

Because Vladimir Putin is labelled as the bad guy, and criticism of the Ukrainian government is thought to serve his agenda, Ukraine has become a no-go area. The powers that be don’t want to admit how bad things are inside Ukraine, so The Guardian’s “fearless investigative journalists” don’t get to write about it.


Mikhail Bulgakov. During his lifetime, his work was censored by the Soviets. In 2014, the new Ukrainian government banned a TV dramatization of his novel, The White Guard. (Photo: Wikipedia)

Instead, the truth is being swept under the carpet. And the truth is that the nationalist forces that took control of Ukraine are bringing shame on their country. Ukraine has given way to crude nationalistic resentment, to the extent of vandalizing Soviet war memorials and banning books, TV dramas and films. And in its search for new national heroes to replace the Soviet heroes it is rejecting, Ukraine is glorifying the most despicable characters from its fascist past.

The Lviv pogrom, 1941 (Photo: Wikipedia)

The historical background is complicated. In the 1930s, Ukraine was oppressed by the Bolsheviks and millions died of famine. Then, during World War II, the German invasion of the USSR gave Ukrainian nationalists the opportunity to push for independence, in an uneasy alliance with Nazi Germany. By collaborating with Nazi Germany, the Ukrainian nationalists hoped that they would be rewarded with their own Ukrainian state.

As Ukraine fashions a new identity for itself, Ukrainians have been seeking inspiration from Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych and the other Nazi collaborators who piggy-backed on German military victories to advance the Ukrainian nationalist cause.

Torchlit procession of Ukrainian nationalists (Photo: Wikipedia)

The trouble is that these Ukrainian nationalists, who proclaimed statehood in Lviv in 1941, were committed to more than just a tactical alliance with Nazi Germany. Their organization sympathized with Nazi ideas, too.

The Nazis regarded Jews, Poles and Russians as subhuman, and so did Stepan Bandera. The Ukrainian nationalists massacred Poles, perpetrated pogroms and were willing participants in the Holocaust. They even had their own division in the SS, the SS Galicia.

A photo of Stepan Bandera displayed during the Maidan uprising, January 2014 (Photo: Wikipedia)

The dark side of Ukraine’s wartime history has become a point of reference for the new, post-Maidan regime. As monuments to Soviet commanders are demolished, new monuments to Ukrainian fascists are going up.

The Ukrainian government has designated 1st January, Stepan Bandera’s birthday, as a national holiday. Statues of Bandera and Shukhevych have appeared in many cities, and streets are being named after war criminals. Ultranationalist organizations are invited to schools to give children a “patriotic” education. Nazi symbols are openly displayed at concerts and football matches, and antisemitic literature is sold on market stalls.

Meanwhile, monuments commemorating the Holocaust have been desecrated, and synagogues have been attacked.

“Death to the Yids”: graffiti beside a synagogue in Odessa. The sign is a Wolfsangel, a common Nazi symbol. (Photo: Wikipedia)

Old poisons are rising to the surface. The figures openly praised by Ukrainian leaders are the scoundrels and fanatics who threw in their lot with Hitler. The new Ukraine is obsessed with its own national grievances, but it shows little respect for any of the non-Ukrainian victims of history. With its sickly blend of romanticism and self-pity, Ukraine is now a breeding ground for racism and extremism. But this is something the Western press is not yet ready to admit.

Instead, the press has been colluding in a conspiracy of silence and shutting its eyes to the danger. By putting up statues of fascists from the past, Ukraine is giving a green light to fascism today.

SUPPORT OFFGUARDIAN

If you enjoy OffG's content, please help us make our monthly fund-raising goal and keep the site alive.

For other ways to donate, including direct-transfer bank details click HERE.

0 0 votes
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

86 Comments
newest
oldest most voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
yuri
yuri
May 6, 2020 7:24 AM

the vast ignorance is unsurprising (read posts)–pogroms occurred in Ukraine, Poland Georgia—not Russia…of course the Ukrainian language is rarely heard–largely in western central villages—not in cities, except Lviv..since 2014 5 million have sought asylum in Russia…the amerikan coup, one of hundreds produced by USA has reduced Ukraine to a 4th world nation and permanently severed Crimea and likely Novorissiya from Ukraine….when ruling oligarchs listen to amerikans the regret transforms into the need for amerikan military intervention…US military actively funds, trains Nazi battalions Above, Praviya sektor,etc… Ukraine’s largest export today is prostitutes, having lost the most productive industrial areas where coal, steel, locomotives r produced

Anthony Papagallo
Anthony Papagallo
Feb 18, 2020 12:05 AM
Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 18, 2020 12:30 AM

In this 24 Dec 2019 video, Andrey Vadjra says much the same thing. You might want to watch it in full-screen mode so as to be able to read the English subtitles.

Why the U.S. Democrats need Ukraine

Berlin Beerman
Berlin Beerman
Feb 16, 2020 7:59 PM

I wonder if your playing Devils Advocate with this essay?

Were the Soviets a better option to the Ukrainian people? I would suggest they were no better an option than to the people of Bulgaria, or other Eastern countries after 1945. Never mind the fact that those red shields were oppressing the Ukraine even earlier.

Today, the MSM is mute for other reasons – primarily quid pro quo Joe and the fact that Soviet loving Oligarchs sponsor most of the agendas if these MSM’s from their perches.

Sponsoring regime change against Mr. Putins’ agenda is what these Oligarchs wished for and in the end they got none of it right. The US failed, the EU gave up. Who won? Russia won and the national movement in the Ukraine won. Now they want change.

Stop with all the Nazi BS from the past. Do you want another Germany with its balls cut off? Whimpering at every turn, being held hostage ?

If the people truly want it then let them have it. Democracy I think its referred to.

Mr.Kolomoisky has perhaps seen the light or shall we say Mr.Putin showed it to him in the form of a check mate. He was first to offer the olive branch in the form of Mr. Zelensky, whom the people democratically ( and rightly so ) elected, over that of many other imbeciles running. The MSM is mute. Its game over for them.

To instill them to “report” would mean they would be reporting against one of their own.

The people of Ukraine are not so stupid. They are trying to sort this as best they can. The Soviet Era had no hero’s for the Ukrainians. The monuments of oppression should have been torn down long ago.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Feb 16, 2020 10:56 PM
Reply to  Berlin Beerman

The long disrupted Russo-German alliance has instead mutated into an even bigger EurAsian -EU evolving counter to the now old Anglo 5+1 eyed horror.

The world sighs in relief. As the Westphalian model of robbery of peoples finally bites the dust.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Feb 17, 2020 8:01 AM
Reply to  Berlin Beerman

”Stop with all the Nazi BS from the past.”

Yes, that was a rather squalid little episode; best kept hushed up, bad PR. It is easy to understand why certain people don’t wish to be reminded of minor little episodes such as the Volhynia massacres with its death toll of and estimated 100,000 Jews, Poles and Russians. These outrages, generally unknown in the west, are still remembered in Tel Aviv and Warsaw.

The trouble is that the descendants of Bandera, Shukhevych et al., are still pursuing the same goals of their murderous predecessors. Biltesky, Paruiby and Yarosh; this second neo-nazi generation swagger around Kiev and Lviv generally armed to the teeth. Ukraine is de facto presently ruled by an oligarch-neonazi coalition and your apologia just doesn’t obscure this rather embarrassing fact.

How about stopping with all the neo-nazi BS from the present.

Tim Drayton
Tim Drayton
Feb 17, 2020 12:11 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Many horrific anti-Semitic acts took place in Nazi Germany (e.g. Kristallnacht 9-10 November 1938) with the enthusiatic support of people from more or less the same demographic that supports the populist right-wing movements of our day. However, I don’t hear the crass argument that this means all Germans are fascists and always will be. Perhaps the number of Ukranians I know is too small to be representative, but I find them to be balanced, reasonable people who simply aspire to the right to self-determination, which to them means freedom from Russian imperialism. Of course, fascism must be fought wherever it rears its ugly head, but the strength of the far right in the country does not delegitimize the Ukranian people’s wish for self-determination

Berlin Beerman
Berlin Beerman
Feb 17, 2020 2:04 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

That coalition is their current way out of a mess that was caused by the same people who sit and judge from afar.

If you really want the Ukrainian people to succeed , then living in the past is not going to solve the present – neither are a bunch of mislead youth gangs who give rise to accusations that will certainly hinder the process further.

My key question still remains the same as the author’s – why are the MSM ignoring all this and its something that I have a thought on in my response – what is your explanation ?

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Feb 17, 2020 4:25 PM
Reply to  Berlin Beerman

”If you really want the Ukrainian people to succeed , then living in the past is not going to solve the present – neither are a bunch of mislead youth gangs who give rise to accusations that will certainly hinder the process further.”

Looks like I have to make the point again. The present is in the past, or rather a continuation of the past. The re-nazifcation of this failed state continues apace with street-names changed, statues pulled down or erected; this is what living in the past looks like. Moreover, the litany of opponents, jailed, tortured, disappeared or ‘liquidated’ as the fashion suits seems in lock-step with past practices of the 1940s. Then comes the belligerent foreign policy made in the Pentagon, taken up with considerable alacrity by Kiev, and obviously aimed at Russia, and it goes without saying, complete subservience to the US – yet another vassal ‘state’ in the service of the US AZ empire. As colour revolutions go the Maidan was a snip at $5 billion, at least according to Victoria Nuland. The notion that this state qua state, is sovereign is frankly ludicrous. It is ruled by an oligarch-neonazi alliance either living in the past and past glories ‘glory to the ukraine’ (sic) and a group of oligarchs simply intent on looting whatever is left of the country.

I wish you luck with the reconstruction.

Berlin Beerman
Berlin Beerman
Feb 17, 2020 4:35 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Your playing both ends, much like the author above.

You have no solution, you really do not care if there is one or not.

Ukraine, according to you, is now a brown shirt state so lets do what ? Generalize and abandon and hate. Just like the people you have disregard for.

Oddly, there seems to be three sides to this affair.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 17, 2020 9:35 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Fascism and Nazism don’t give you any choice. They hate you and want you dead or expelled, so you die or run-or fight. Simple choice. The apologias for true fascist violence are a real feature of the current dominance of the Right in the West.

Scott Chaudhary
Scott Chaudhary
Feb 5, 2021 5:40 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

“failed state”
Your bias is showing

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 17, 2020 9:34 PM
Reply to  Berlin Beerman

Fascist death-squads, training-grounds for killers from across Europe, are ‘..mislead youth gangs’ are they?

Jen
Jen
Feb 18, 2020 1:44 AM
Reply to  Berlin Beerman

Your side seems to be to excuse what has been happening in Ukraine since February 2014 and to deliberately suggest the current actions of the Ukrainian government and its institutions (the SBU in particular) have no precedent in the actions of the Ukrainian ultranationalists who collaborated with or worked for Nazi Germany and then later the CIA and MI6.

yuri
yuri
May 6, 2020 7:11 AM
Reply to  Berlin Beerman

your ignorance is spectacular

Berlin Beerman
Berlin Beerman
May 6, 2020 3:21 PM
Reply to  yuri

Well Yuri care to explain it to me with factual information or shall we just play the game like everyone else. Please I would like to know where my ignorance comes into play.

Seems I have gotten it all wrong.

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
Feb 16, 2020 12:44 PM

You’re surprised that the corporate media that supported the fascist violent overthrow of the democratically elected legitimate government of the Ukraine is not critically reporting on the crimes of the fascist regime it helped the US to establish. I would be surprised if the corporate media were pointing out its crimes.

Iryna Sadovnykova
Iryna Sadovnykova
Feb 15, 2020 5:36 PM

I’m Ukrainian and I just want to say that this is bullshit. Nationalist ideas in Ukraine are no more on the rise than anywhere in the world – that’s just a global trend. But it hasn’t become a dominant ideology. On the contrary, since the revolution of 2013-2014 the situation with minority rights, national or otherwise, has become way, way better than when we were “friends” with Russia, because xenophobia is basically their national idea. For example, we’ve had a successful Kyiv Pride for several years in a row which was impossible to imagine during the pro-Russian president Yanukovich rule. Also Jews and Muslims were a big part of the revolution and many of them are still fighting Russian troops alongside with ethnic Ukrainian people.

And what you’re doing here is spreading Kremlin propaganda. I hope you’re being paid for this at least and not just being a true moron.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Feb 15, 2020 7:37 PM

Nationalist ideas in Ukraine are no more on the rise than anywhere in the world.

Yes, here in the UK we also have large crowds of young men parading with flags and torches with Nazi emblems, on a regular basis. NOT.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 15, 2020 9:42 PM

Moslems were involved in the fascist putsch and subsequent death-squad operations in eastern Ukraine, but mostly Chechen jihadists, killer-thugs like the Ukronazi vermin you represent. As for Jews, they would be the oligarchs like Kolomoisky, who own the rapidly depopulating Ukraine dystopia, and control both Zelinsky, the puppet ‘President’, and the Azov and other death-squads.

eddie
eddie
Feb 15, 2020 9:50 PM

A few Muslim Tatars, paid for with CIA dirty money, were the only minor problem for the 96% ethnic Russian pro-independence forum in Simferopol. This small Muslim minority have equal social and linguistic rights, like they always did, as a tiny minority in Crimea.

The Maidan Coup of 2014, which at its peak totalled 200,000, represented less than 10% of the population of Kiev, much less the 45 million UA citizens.. Many of the Maiden rioters were Lviv hooligans paid to attend. The self-confessed snipers shooting at everyone were Georgians linked with Saakashvilli, a wanted criminal whom Interpol strangely hasn’t arrested..

Ukraine is now a corrupt Jewish oligarchy owning everything, strangely left untouched by the real-time anti-Semitic mob who are strangely never prosecuted for every crime imaginable.. A basket case, as always..

paul
paul
Feb 16, 2020 4:39 PM
Reply to  eddie

The Maidan rioters, trained at NATO bases in Poland and Lithuania, were on $25 a day from the US embassy, plus free booze, free drugs, and free prostitutes. All part of Nuland’s $5 billion.

eddie
eddie
Feb 17, 2020 2:57 PM
Reply to  paul

Troll idiot..

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 17, 2020 9:38 PM
Reply to  eddie

The truth hurts, doesn’t it,’eddie’.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 17, 2020 9:39 PM

Hang on, eddie. What you said about the Tatars was the truth, then you attacked paul for telling the truth as well. I’m confused.

eddie
eddie
Feb 18, 2020 5:20 AM

the Maidan hooligans, trained by NATO in Poland & Lithuania? free booze, dope, pussy?
why don’t you run along, little boy, and cease polluting this site?
this forum went downhill after your drivel arrived

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 18, 2020 8:18 AM
Reply to  eddie

Jeez, eddie-a bit over the top, or what? Off your meds are you?

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 16, 2020 9:55 PM
Reply to  eddie

The thing with lumpen fascists is that they are dumb, pig ignorant and easily manipulated by appeals to hatred.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Feb 15, 2020 11:53 PM

Yes, things are going so swimmingly in Ukraine that it is now the poorest country in Europe and the country is literally bleeding people as those who want to leave and who are heading west at the rate of 100,000 per month. There are millions working in Russia and Poland quite simply because they can’t make a living in their own bankrupt homeland. The population in 1990 was 52 million, now it is 42 million. That is a demographic disaster in anyone’s language, and it isn’t Russian propaganda. It’s easy enough to check out the figures.

But you do of course have heavily protected gay marches. I think this is called grasping at straws.

paul
paul
Feb 16, 2020 12:08 AM

There are NO Nazis in Ukraine!
All those people in SS regalia with swastikas are just on their way to a fancy dress party.
And black shirts are de rigueur this year for upwardly mobile middle management.
But there are NO Nazis in Ukraine!!

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 16, 2020 4:28 PM

The reburial of Ukrainian soldiers 14 Waffen-Grenadier-Division SS «Galizien» (World War II)

25 Sep 2015

Nationalism = Nazism!!!

Celebration and glorification of the establishment of 14 Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS «Galizien» (World War II) http://vk.com/video132487837_171239341 2013-2015

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 16, 2020 4:30 PM

Ukrainians celebrating 75th anniversary of the Nazi SS Galician Division

21 Apr 2018

“War Diary” project | Lvov, Ukraine | April 20th 2018

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 16, 2020 4:37 PM
Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 16, 2020 9:58 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

There’s the real kernel of all Rightist psychopathology-‘ The main thing is to hate’. The rest is commentary.

Ti-Min
Ti-Min
Feb 17, 2020 5:18 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Ah, but at least the kids are getting some fresh air, and staying fit, doing activities. What’s a little hate between friends ?

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 16, 2020 4:43 PM

Ukraine – Neo-Nazis sell cans of “separatist with sour cream”
http://www.donbass-insider.com/2020/01/11/ukraine-neo-nazis-sell-cans-of-separatist-with-sour-cream/

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 16, 2020 4:50 PM

Also Jews and Muslims were a big part of the revolution and many of them are still fighting Russian troops alongside with ethnic Ukrainian people.

That is a blatant lie – there are no Russian troops whatsoever in the Ukraine, not even in the Donbass, there never were any. And in view of the openly anti-Semitism expressed by the equally openly neo-Nazi organisations and political parties, as well as battalions, such as Svoboda, Pravy Sektor and Azov, it is highly unlikely that there are any Jews fighting imaginary Russian troops in the Ukraine.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 16, 2020 4:51 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Ooops, the second paragraph should not have been a quote, it is my comment.

Zoran Aleksic
Zoran Aleksic
Feb 16, 2020 9:42 PM

I’m giving you a thumb up. This has definitely been one of the best works of sarcasm since the works of Jonathan Swift. Well done.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 18, 2020 3:16 AM

Andrey Vadjra: Dogma of Ukrainian Neo-Nazism

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 18, 2020 3:16 AM

Andrey Vadjra: Thoughts of Ukrainian Nazism

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 18, 2020 3:18 AM

Andrey Vadjra: The Faces of Ukrainian Nazism

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 18, 2020 3:19 AM

Andrey Vadjra: Political Pedophilia of Ukrainian Neo-Nazism

Iryna Sadovnykova
Iryna Sadovnykova
Feb 19, 2020 12:22 PM

Sorry, my bad. I’m new here and I thought this was an actual international site. Now I only have one question: how’s the weather in Olgino, dear propaganda professionals? How come you can speak English at even a moderate level? I didn’t think they knew how to teach it in Russia.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Feb 19, 2020 12:59 PM

And how is the weather in Kiev, dear mendacious professional Banderite propaganda professional?

My command of the Bard’s language is nigh on perfect, I obtained the highest score possible in English Language in my GCSE and GCEAL exams.

What about you?

Eric Zuesse
Eric Zuesse
Feb 19, 2020 4:05 PM

Iryna, please explain this to me:

mikael
mikael
Feb 15, 2020 3:08 PM

So, to me, and I know I am stepping toes, this is an western created force, using the legitim confusion and anger coming from the Ukrainians as an batling ram where they shamelessly used Ukrainian nationalisis to give the same group, nationalists an bad name, like the Norwegian Brevik, all to paint anyone whom is political conervative and fights for their own people and nation.
Ukraina, well, like Poland, have an history, witch is rearly tuched, but this Nazi yapping is getting tiredsome, and infact an divertion of what happened with Ukraina, before ww2 and the after math when the Comunist ruled their land, and nobody bothers to debate that, but jumps on the Hitleri bandwagon to have an sort of argument.
There is an reason for the pereverted onesidedness in our “eminet” MSM, witch screams and whines everytime an someone paints an swastica on whatever and anyone whom is for the Palestinians as an anti-semit and if you are against Globalism you are an neo-nazi but somehow, the same press, dont tuch the Orcs, huh, do you even know why, I know, but do you.

What many wont debate is, do the ukrainians have an reason, we may all be agreeing on certain actions witch will by everybody sees and evil, buring women and chilren alive, you cant fall lower as an human, but why, and nobody is willing to debate the centurys before, to me, the Nazi thing is an made up psy-op, created by Zionists, and then what the hell are we infact watching when they march, when they have been run by the very same oligarcs that are Jewish, armed and founded this so called Nazis, they are controlled oposition, nothing more or less, but do they represent average Ukrainians, no, but their hate against Russia comes from been occupyed and the Jewish, witch have an much longer history, from both Ukraina and Poland is never debated, and people wounder why the hate sticks so deep.

Again, this is not about legitimising the atrocitys, dont even try that against me, it dont work, but what I say is this, present Russia, have nothing to do with what was in the past, thats where the Psy-op comes in, like the hate Norwegian rightwingers have against the Russians, for reasons that have everything to do with been pimped full of idiot propaganda coming from the western MSM witch we all know about, coming from Yankikestan, I am one of the few whom have an reason for hating Russia, but I dont, because its not the presents cause, some aspects, yes, but not about the past, the sole reason for me to “attack” Russia is because they hide the past, lies about most of the events, and the reasons, and the sole problem lies in whom had the power, the Jews, Bolshewiks, they where behind the plundering of My peoples homeland, etc, and the Ukrainians have an much longer history of controverses, fights, economic issues, land thefts, usury, etc, aka treated like shit, with an upper class mainly consisting of Jews, and thats where Poland is to day, after lived with propaganda about WW1 and WW2 they to have realised something in the past is way out of line, and most is flatout lies to hide centurys of crimes comitted against this respective people but NOBODY is willing to take that debate, instead we end up with an hole bunch of total nonsense witch to an certain degree is justifyable but never the less an divertion.

I can understand them, not the Orcs armys the western backeed as to have an pack of idiots waving Nazi reliqvias, but the history is not what you know, and that is what is coming up this days, and to me, I am afraid its been taken into an direction that will damage more than anything than doing any good, and Ukraina must be more honest, repent and lett grown ups look into the past.
And again, mutch of the history, also from WW2 can be taken with an truck load of salt, period.
I feel more pity with the Ukrainians and Polaks, and hopes they realise that germany and europeans in general are as much victims as they are, and to round it up, everything, or must of what YOU debate regarding WW2 and Hitler is 100% bollocks, what some did was to take advantages of an period of turmoil and war, and in that sense, both nations, Poland and Ukraina have their own atrocitys comitted, nobody denies that.
The truth, will come, and I hope this will reflect the future.
WW2 was started by France, Britain and the UssA, with the estern Sovjet, and again, everything you know is lies, and why did France attack and invaded Germany in 39, I bet most of you dont even know that, and how to then debate what happened in other regions.
Finland was attacked because of Stalin, to have an bridgehead into Germany and Europa from the North.
And like in other imperial wars this days, its about resources, we had Nikel, an hughe cash machine even to day, and thats why, we where thrown out, even when we didnt do anything, and was replaced with Russians, is that what, and then in the Norway, the racial Eugenic program meant for people like me, was ended just 30 years ago, and when I was an child, Finnish language was forbidden, did you know that
Have an nice day.

peace

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Feb 15, 2020 4:12 PM
Reply to  mikael

Your experience and personal understanding would be improved if you realised that when you say ‘Jews’ you are confusing the long and happy history of people of that religion with Russia with the very small group who have had designs on not only Russia but every nation on the planet to own ALL of it.

Putin knows the history. He even went and told it to a room full of leaders in Israel.

It is important to understand the distinction, it is not about religion buy MONEY and POWER.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Feb 15, 2020 5:32 PM
Reply to  mikael

the Nazi thing is an made up psy-op, created by Zionists

Erm, no. The Ukrainian Banderista Nazis were real, not made up at all.
How do I know?

– Half my family (father’s side) lived and most stayed in Ukraine from before WW2 onwards.
– the other half (mother’s side) were slaughtered by their Ukrainian neigjbours, old women disemboweled, children thrown into wells, etc.

There have been lots of atrocities around the world throughout history. Extremism of both left and right cannot be tolerated and needs to be nipped in the bud, wherever it raises its ugly head. Right now it’s re-surfaced in Ukraine; needs to be eradicated immediately.

Barovsky
Barovsky
Feb 15, 2020 6:53 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

My mother lost almost her entire family in Ukraine at the hands of German and Ukrainian fascists. Obviously Iryna Sadovnykova is some kind of fascist troll.

Barovsky
Barovsky
Feb 15, 2020 6:55 PM
Reply to  Barovsky

And I note that ‘Iryna Sadovnykova’ has not bothered to respond.

John A
John A
Feb 15, 2020 2:34 PM

What is this place called Kyiv in the article?

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Feb 15, 2020 4:16 PM
Reply to  John A

Lol well caught – maybe we should stick with Киев.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Feb 16, 2020 4:01 PM
Reply to  John A

Kijów

paul
paul
Feb 15, 2020 2:19 PM

Ukraine is now just a failed state, one of the most corrupt countries on earth, with an average standard of living lower than Egypt, lorded over by oligarch kleptocrats.
In 1991, it was the most highly developed and prosperous part of the Soviet Union with a population of 52 million.
The Kiev Coup Regime now controls a population of about 30 million, after the sky high mortality rates of the 1990s-2000s, the loss of Crimea and Donbas, 2 million refugees to Poland and 1.5 million to Russia. Millions of others have voted with their feet, scratching a living working abroad. Wherever you go in the world, you will find Ukrainian Natasha prostitutes, the only thing Ukraine produces western countries want.
The only future it has is a CIA playground, a location for Monsanto agribusiness and the Hunter Biden Brigade of US frackers and carpetbaggers.
Let Washington and Brussels pick up the bill for this depopulated s***hole.
They wanted it, now they’ve got it.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Feb 15, 2020 2:05 PM

Annual Birthday celebrations of Stepan Bandera as held every January in Kiev. Up to 20,000 march in his ‘honour.’ I wonder what the west’s liberal media thinks of this.

From the Times of Israel 11 January 2020 Headline below.

Ukraine tells Israel to stay out of debate about honoring Nazi collaborators

‘’Ukraine’s ambassador to Israel says honoring of Stepan Bandera is an internal issue, calls Israeli envoy’s comments against it as being ‘counterproductive’
Ukraine’s ambassador to Israel has told Jerusalem to butt out of the debate about the honoring of Nazi collaborators.

Thursday’s intervention by Hennadii Nadolenko, head of Ukraine’s diplomatic mission in Tel Aviv, reflects an escalation in the disagreement between Israel and Ukraine over the issue.

The subject is related to “internal issues of Ukrainian politics” and Israel’s protests about it are “counterproductive,” Nadolenko told Israeli diplomats, according to the news site Jewish.ru

Last week, Israel’s ambassador to Ukraine, Joel Lion, and his Polish counterpart Bartosz Cichocki wrote officials an open letter condemning the government-sponsored honoring of Stepan Bandera and Andryi Melnyk, two collaborators with the Third Reich.

The two have written on the subject before. In 2018, Lion wrote that he was shocked at an earlier act of veneration for Bandera, saying: “I cannot understand how the glorification of those directly involved in horrible anti-Semitic crimes helps fight anti-Semitism and xenophobia.”

Ukrainian diplomats had previously refrained from commenting publicly about Lion’s protests.

The veneration of Nazi collaborators, including killers of Jews, is a growing phenomenon in Eastern Europe, where many consider such individuals as heroes because they fought against Russian domination.

But few of Lion’s counterparts in those countries have spoken out as forcefully and publicly on this issue.’’

Yes, it’s a bit of a tricky issue for the AZ-empire and its lackey journalists in pretending that the Bandera paramilitaries, Right Sector, Svoboda, Patriots of the Ukraine – inveterate fascists as they are – actually spearheaded the February coup in 2014. ‘Fascists, we see no Fascists’’. But apparently the Times of Israel does.

The silence is outrageous. The same is true of the grubby little regimes in the Baltics whose treatment of their indigenous jewish population was even worse than the Ukraine. So our presstitute media prefers to remain schtumm on this issue. What disgusting creeps they are.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 15, 2020 9:46 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Every April the Ukronazis CELEBRATE the genocide against the Galician Poles, that occurred in 1943-4, until stopped by the Red Army. THAT is what they are.

Capricornia Man
Capricornia Man
Feb 16, 2020 11:18 AM
Reply to  Francis Lee

“I wonder what the west’s liberal media thinks of this.” (Rampant Nazism and antisemitism in Ukraine.)

The west’s liberal media, headed by “the greatest broadcasting organisation in the world”, is far too busy smearing principled anti-racists as “anti-Semites” to concern themselves with real antisemitism.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Feb 15, 2020 1:55 PM
Tutisicecream
Tutisicecream
Feb 15, 2020 1:16 PM

Excellent article. Straight to the point about Ukraine. As an antidote to the usual increasingly paranoid MSM reporting on behalf of their handlers. If ever their was an example of propagandists in action it would be the reporting [or not reporting] of critical issues in Ukraine and Syria.

Add to this the demonisation of Russia, which I can attest is totally false. Russia is a great country and is not the police state gleefully reported on in the WMSM. As China is not the source of a global pandemic but more likely a Genome attack on the people of China via a manufactured virus. Neither is Russia a backward country ruled over by a despot.

Quite the opposite in fact.

Paul
Paul
Feb 15, 2020 1:12 PM

The 2014 coup d’etat was a turning point for all of us. To deny the Ukrainians their ‘revolution’ was deemed heretical by the West – unsurprising because they had called it. It was our own Baroness Ashton, the never elected to anything friend of Blair who became the EU’s High Representative in Foreign Affairs who suddenly announced enough was enough, the EU was recognising the rebels in Maiden Square as the new government in place of the elected one. The day before the West had agreed to a plan to hold an early election but it seems Obama and Clinton didn’t like that and wanted immediate regime change. The Baroness still floats around conferences but is rarely noticed let alone listened to had several phone conversations with the White House that night before announcing the Government had fallen and a new EU supported one was appointed. Appointed: there was no time for silly old elections, the Russians had to be pulled up. And anyway the US had spent a lot of money organising the training of armed ‘protesters’ and snipers who were to prove their worth when nearly 100 riot police were shot dead. Many were prepared to ‘forgive’ the Americans for not fully grasping the implications of returning to the early 1940’s with fascists emerging from the woodwork. Fascists were better than Russians it was felt. The Americans desperately wanted the EU to turn away from business with Russia which at that time was thriving. The EU was a bit sick when the Russians sanctioned European food but it was too late by then and they were quite prepared for farmers to be punished so long as Mrs Clinton was happy. A sad time for Europe failing its people and allowing the first Fascist victory in Europe since WW2. Proof of its powerlessness. That year also saw an aggressive media turn on any sympathy for Ukraine. Famously the Guardian accepted reams of pro fascist posts on its Comments section while relentlessly banning those complaining (like me!). Apparently the EU are quite prepared to shoot themselves in the other foot if the Americans demand it.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Feb 15, 2020 10:44 AM

Well done Off-G, really going for the proxy nazis of Ukraine – lets have ALL of the history of how they were settled in Canada along with German nazis, by their masters, show us their trajectory and power since then – the 1000 year plan didn’t come to a halt with the genocide and sacrifice of the Russian peoples and the Red Army.

They were let lose from their slumbers in Canada to try and do what they failed to do for a hundred years – takeover Russia. They have FAILED yet again.

The dumb fuck Ukes on the ground were fed a lie that they would become some great ‘Singapore’ of Europe, elevated to aristocratic levels! By the US !!! When all that was happening was they were being set up as the new proxy nazis just as the Germans were.

The Poles, Hungarians and BeloRussians have also been setup with promises of parceling up the Ukraine by the same Yanks and promises of nato zillions – perennial suckers.

The yanks have planned to steal the gas for fracking; the farm lands; and leave the poisoned Chernobyl for the EU and Russians to deal with for the next 10,000 years.

All done with the issuance of draconian national bonds to a VERY few entitities – which are deaigned to ratchet up as the Ukrainian GDP improves thus threatening bankruptcy and handing over of the assetts.

Voila another win-win for the bankers using proxy nazis again.

As they have with the UK and the great brexit scam.

Once a sucker always a sucker.

So thanks Off-G for removing the blinkers lets have more, daily.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Feb 15, 2020 8:16 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

Nice one DG!

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Feb 15, 2020 9:53 AM

I forgot to add:

Various other novel attractions in the capital of Banderestan – Lviv – include ‘Jewish themed restaurants’ one such is Kryivka (Hideout or Lurking Hole) where guests have a choice of dishes and whose dinning walls are decorated with larger than life portraits of Bandera, the toilet with Russian and Jewish anecdotes. At another Jewish themed restaurant guests are offered black hats of the sort worn by Hasidim. The menu lists no prices for the dishes; instead, one is required to haggle over highly inflated prices ‘’in the Jewish fashion’’. Yes, it’s all good clean fun in Lviv. Anti-Semitism also sells. Out of 19 book vendors on the streets of central Lviv, 16 were openly selling anti-Semitic literature. About 70% of the anti-Semitic publications in Ukraine are being published by and educational institution called MUAP (The Inter-Regional Academy of Personnel Management). MAUP is a large, well-connected and increasingly powerful organization funded from outside anti-Semite sources, and also connected to
White Supremacist groups in the USA and to the David Duke, former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

(It is one of the ironies of history that if the Zionists in AIPAC and the Washington neo-con think tanks, and the Labour Party Friends of Israel, were so concerned about anti-Semitism, they might try looking for it in Lviv. They wouldn’t have to search very far.)

One would have thought that this mutating revolution in the Ukraine would have drawn attention of the centre-left to the fact that fascism had gained a vital beachhead in Europe, and that the danger signals should be flashing. But not a bit of it; a perusal of the Guardian newspaper quickly reveals that their chief concern has been with a non-existent ‘Russian threat’. One of their reporters – or old friend, Luke Harding -described Right Sector as an ‘’eccentric group of people with unpleasant right-wing views.’’ Priceless! This must rank as the political understatement of the century. In fact, the Guardian was simply reiterating the US-imposed neo-conservative foreign policy. But naturally, this is par for the course.

Paul
Paul
Feb 15, 2020 1:43 PM
Reply to  Francis Lee

As you say the attitude of the mass media to 2014 was very instructive. Not a whisper of dissent was allowed. Naively I imagined there would be some degree of protest when the new Government declared the 7 million who lived in the East, as terrorists who had to be eliminated. They used jet fighters (until it got too hot for them) and then pounded a city of 1 million with unguided missiles. 3000+ civilians were killed and it only stopped when the Government ran out of missiles and had problems raising new money (because it often disappeared). I really did think the Guardian would splash the front page with the story of how innocents in high rise blocks were being targeted by a ruthless military regime. But there was barely a mention of that, only stories about ‘little green men’ who were said to be Russian spies flooding into Russian territory (Crimea). There was some sort of bust up in the Guardian about the flood of Canadian Ukrainian posters who were incredibly abusive about Putin and regularly imagined what sort of death he deserved. They blocked the site with overnight posts, mostly to each other. They were apparently just told to lay off by ‘authority’ and in return the Guardian toed the line as it still does. Harding was of course knocking out Russian Hate pieces almost daily.

Capricornia Man
Capricornia Man
Feb 16, 2020 11:30 AM
Reply to  Francis Lee

Since when have Zionists ever been worried about real antisemitism (as distinct from the imaginary kind, such as support for Palestinian rights)?

michaelk
michaelk
Feb 15, 2020 9:34 AM

Many of the journalists employed by the Guardian believe, or labour under the illusion, that they are frightfully clever, deliciously witty and masters of irony. Poor things. This is a product of their backgrounds and educations. How well one plays the ‘class roles’ one has been alloted by one’s parents economic status. Only this doesn’t prepare or reward one for challenging all the ‘lies’ that we ‘know’ are ‘true.’

The fundamental role of the middle class journalist in the UK is not to act as a guardian of the truth and a watchdog, but increasingly the opposite is true. Their role is to Protect the state and its’ institutions and increasingly, to ignore harsh truths about modern imperialism and our military adventures overseas; whilst at the same time attacking anyone who dares to question or oppose the bloody course we’re on.

Capricornia Man
Capricornia Man
Feb 16, 2020 11:35 AM
Reply to  michaelk

Not just middle class journalists in the UK, but all over the Anglosphere. As Pilger has it, much of what passes for journalism today is just the propaganda of big power.

michaelk
michaelk
Feb 15, 2020 9:24 AM

Trying to ‘engage’ with Guardian journalists about events in Ukraine… honestly, is a real uphill struggle, that leads absolutely nowhere. Their collective ignorance about Ukraine is strangely linked to their absolute confidence that they actually do understand what’s happening their, despite knowing next to nothing!

It’s rather odd and disturbing. Repeatedly, they get great and important stories so wrong. A pattern of ‘mistakes’ and ‘failures’ emerges. Like the conflict in Syria, isn’t really a ‘civil war’ at all, or a revolt by the Syrian people against an unpopular ‘regime.’ The Labour Party isn’t riddled with ‘antisemitism’ and Corbyn isn’t a vile racist. Trump wasn’t secretly unloaded onto a deserted beach decades ago by a Soviet submarine! He’s not a Russian agent. Identity and gender politics are massively unpopular with vast swathes of the population who are far more interested in economic inequalities. Or that Julian Assange was charged with raping two women in Sweden.

So much of ‘middle class’ culture and education is about knowing what you are allowed to say and think, and what you aren’t, and how one is allowed to express oneself in public. Journalists, because of their role as kind of ‘priesthood’ are even more sensitive about all of this because their careers as dependent on it.

I found the Guardian’s journalists’ views and knowledge of Ukraine rather comical, staggeringly naive and lacking in basic knowledge on a collosal scale.

Tutisicecream
Tutisicecream
Feb 15, 2020 12:35 PM
Reply to  michaelk

Well said. After Jonathan Steel came Luke Harding and the paranoia that followed about anything Russian pervades to this day From Shaun the “Cheese” Walker’s attempts to rubbish anything Russian to the current Andrew Roth with his hysteria about how Russia carries out its quarantine procedures in response to the Coronavirus media epidemic.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 15, 2020 9:53 PM
Reply to  michaelk

And, the Supreme Irony, it is these lying propagandists who rave on about ‘fake news’, when every syllable that passes their lips is pure agit-prop for The Atlanticist Empire, and the ‘fake news’ they abuse is simply the Truth. Big Brother has been outdone by the Little Sisters of the ‘liberal’ feminazi cult, and their male colleagues, at sewers like the Guardian.

Capricornia Man
Capricornia Man
Feb 16, 2020 11:40 AM
Reply to  michaelk

Bias, plus ignorance of facts and context are usually found in equal measure in corporate media ‘journalists’.

Francis Lee
Francis Lee
Feb 15, 2020 9:17 AM

The iconic picture of the half-dressed Jewish woman running for her life and pursued by the cudgel-wielding Banderist mob was taken in Lviv just after the German invasion in 1941. During the early days of the rapid German advance into the Soviet Union there were some 140 pogroms in the western Ukraine claiming the lives of between 13000-35000 people (Untermensch, in fascist terminology). These opening massacres were the prelude to the policy and enactment of ethnic cleansing carried out in the west of the Ukraine by the UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) the military wing of the (OUN-B) under the command of Ramon Roman-Taras Yosypovych Shukhevych. The most egregious episode came with the Volhynia massacres carried out between 1943-45 in the west of the country by the UPA where upwards of 100,000 civilians, Jews, Russians but mostly Poles, were systematically exterminated. Also active during this period was the 14th Waffen SS Galizien Division made up predominantly of military volunteers with a Ukrainian ethnic background from the area of Galicia in the far west of Ukraine, later also with some Slovaks and Czechs who fought alongside their German mentors.

The Galizien Division was eventually defeated by the Red Army at the Battle of Brody in 1945. The remnants retreated west and finally to Rimini in Italy where they finally surrendered to Anglo-American forces. Interestingly enough they were then most given free-passage to the US and most importantly, Canada today. They have since become a powerful political group in the land of the Maple Leaf.

The terms ‘nazi’ and ‘fascist’ are bandied about usually by people who don’t know what they are talking about, but in Ukraine you have the genuine article – bona fide nazis, often in full regalia. There are now also numerous statues of Bandera across Ukraine, and since the 2014 coup even street names bearing the same name. Significantly the UPA have now received political rehabilitation from the Kiev Junta, with Bandera declared a hero of the Ukraine and the UPA rebranded as ‘freedom fighters.’ One particularly splendid statue of Bandera stands proudly in Lviv and is usually adorned with flowers.

It seems apparent that the Anglo-Zionist would make a pact with the devil in order to further its hegemonic ambitions.

Harry Stotle
Harry Stotle
Feb 15, 2020 7:04 AM

Guardian journalists hate to be reminded that their confected form of antisemitism is a million miles from how real antisemites think and act.

Acres of space on Corbyn’s thought crme yet barely a peep about Ukraine fascists

Capricornia Man
Capricornia Man
Feb 16, 2020 11:50 AM
Reply to  Harry Stotle

Exactly, HS. We’ve had the same sort of lies and omissions from the ‘Australian’ Broadcasting Corporation.

Gall
Gall
Feb 15, 2020 2:58 AM

Hey according to two faced Shifty Schiff Ukraine is “fighting the Russians so we don’t have to”. I mean another “great ally” like Israel who has been selling them arms hand over first despite the fact that the Ukrainians are truly “antisemitic” who unlike American “antisemites” that are always bellyaching about Israel’s genocidal policies Ukrainians excel in their antisemitism by burning down synagogs and threatening the Jewish population …er…I mean offer them a one way train excursion all expenses paid.

I mean what greater “ally” does Israel need to convince more Jews to come the “promised land”and kill a few Palestinians and steal their land. I mean things haven’t been as good since ol’ Uncle ‘Dolph signed the Transfer Agreement.

Aside from a some occasional burbling about antisemitism by NuttenYahoo like the Americans they continue to sell them arms so they can launch genocidal campaigns against Dombass and other ethnic Russian areas that aren’t as Ukofriendly as Washington and Tel Aviv using their reconstituted Bandera Brigade AKA SS Galicia of inveterate Iron Guard. I mean these guys aren’t just a bunch Neo-nazis skin heads but qualify as the real animal.

Thanks to Obama, Nuland and Clinton with the help of Soros deep pockets to fund color revolutions whom if you remember according to 60 Minute interview a ways back reveled in turning over Jewish property and Jews to the tender mercies of the 3rd Reich. I mean what a guy.

Well the reason you probably haven’t heard anything is because the American government is just too modest about show casing yet another example of bringing “freedom and democracy” to the benighted who haven’t experienced the joys of austerity, privatization and giving all their money to help those poor needy kleptocrats who are just millionaires and are striving to be another Jeff Bezos.

Loverat
Loverat
Feb 15, 2020 2:54 AM

Ukraine is almost identical to the rise of fascism in 1990s Croatia. I wonder when the Pope will visit and grant saint hood to these appalling monsters.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Feb 15, 2020 5:43 PM
Reply to  Loverat

Ukraine is almost identical the rise of fascism in 1990s Croatia

Yeah, right…unless you are referring to the Serbs living in Croatian Vukovar who slaughtered innocent Croatian families, those living in Croatian Krajina and Slavonija gleefully killing their neighbours…Orthodox Serbs have something in common with their Orthodox Ukrainian brothers don’t you think?

Jen
Jen
Feb 15, 2020 7:49 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

The people of western Ukraine where the Banderites originated are Uniates: they follow Orthodox Christian ritual but their head is the Pope in the Vatican.

Jen
Jen
Feb 16, 2020 9:17 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

Come to think of it, Orthodox Serbs and many Orthodox Ukrainians living and fighting for their right to use the Russian language in public, for autonomy in Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts, in eastern Ukraine and for a federal Ukraine, do have something in common … Serbian ancestry.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 15, 2020 9:56 PM
Reply to  Loverat

Wojtyla, the Papal protector of priestly paedophiles, would have been there in a trice.

Jen
Jen
Feb 15, 2020 2:39 AM

It must be said that the western parts of Ukraine, where the Ukrainian ultranationalist movement arose under people like Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych and Yuri Stetsko, were actually under Polish rule and were subjected to forced Polonisation under an increasingly nationalist and fascist Polish government during the 1920s and 1930s. This explains why ethnic Polish people were fair game for torture and lynching by Ukrainian followers of Bandera & Co during Nazi rule in the 1940s. Western Ukraine mostly escaped the famines that affected Soviet Ukraine and other parts of the USSR in the 1930s.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Feb 15, 2020 5:56 PM
Reply to  Jen

This explains why ethnic Polish people were fair game for torture and lynching by Ukrainian followers of Bandera & Co during Nazi rule in the 1940s.

Feck off you disgusting apologist. Nothing excuses the slaughter of innocent women, children and men just getting on quietly with their lives.

Jen
Jen
Feb 15, 2020 7:46 PM
Reply to  Frank Speaker

I was stating a fact however inconvenient it is for you and in no way was I apologising for the actions of the Banderite thugs back then. The issue is that western Ukraine (specifically the northwest parts where Lvov / Lviv / Lwow is located) was not under Soviet rule in the 1920s to early 1940s and the area never underwent the forced collectivisation of agriculture under Stalin or the famine that the modern Banderites in Ukraine obsess over.

The unfortunate reality is that in the 1920s to 1940s many governments in European countries that had been part of the German, Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires displayed strong nationalistic tendencies and became authoritarian and fascist in their own ways as they were hit by the Great Depression. Later when Nazi Germany conquered these areas, the Germans exploited the grievances people had against one another. Western Ukrainians were not the only ones who collaborated with the Nazis in killing Jews, Roma / Sinti and others they hated. By exploiting local conflicts, the Nazis could (up to a point) keep people disunited and fighting one another.

If you know the context, you understand how much people have been brainwashed and misled over nearly a century.

Frank Speaker
Frank Speaker
Feb 15, 2020 8:19 PM
Reply to  Jen

Well thanks for clearing that one up Jen, it’s not how it came across originally.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Feb 15, 2020 9:58 PM
Reply to  Jen

Your use of ‘fair game’ was ill-considered, I would say. It gave a wrong impression, at least on first reading.