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WATCH: Perspectives on the Pandemic As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data

Journeyman Pictures sits down with Dr John P.A. Ioannidis to discuss Covid19 (Sars-Cov-2), epidemiology, and the need for reliable data.

The Interviewer: John Kirby is the director of FOUR DIED TRYING, a feature documentary and series on the major assassinations of the 1960’s and their calamitous impact on the country. To join the struggle for justice for Dr. King, Malcolm X, and John and Robert Kennedy.

The Interviewee: Dr Ioannidis is a professor of medicine and professor of epidemiology and population health, as well as professor by courtesy of biomedical data science at Stanford University School of Medicine, professor by courtesy of statistics at Stanford University School of Humanities and Sciences, and co-director of the Meta-Research Innovation Center at Stanford (METRICS) at Stanford University.

He wrote an article on the response to this novel coronavirus for Statnews, and is included in our list of 12 experts critiquing government responses to the pandemic.

His calm, fact-based approach is in stark contrast to the vast majority of the press coverage.

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Louis N. Proyect
Louis N. Proyect
Apr 2, 2020 12:58 PM

Greg Gelembiuk is a FB friend with 20 years experience as a PhD tracking diseases. He posted this comment on my take-down of Ioannidis and other “back to work” scientists being referenced here. (https://louisproyect.org/2020/04/01/the-conspiracist-left-and-the-far-right-strange-bedfellows-on-covid-19/)

On lying with statistics…

Ioannidis references “3,500 infected people in Iceland”, but Iceland has only had a total of 1,220 infected people detected. Rather than using the actual number of detected infections, he has used an assumption that 1% of Iceland’s total population is infected to inflate the denominator. In addition, he’s using the current snapshot number of deaths for the case fatality rate. Early in an epidemic, when most people are only recently infected, that estimator of case fatality rate (i.e. number of deaths over total number of cases) is known to be strongly biased downward, since most people with Covid-19 take weeks (or even months) to die. Many of those detected in Iceland may even be presymptomatic (i.e., they’ll go on to become ill, but are still in the incubation period). Ioannidis of course knows this. Right now, out of 1,220 found infected, only a total of 236 are listed as recovered. The last point I’ll make – Iceland’s aggressive testing and quarantine strategy is known to have strongly limited infections among the elderly, who suffer the greatest mortality rates from Covid-19 (so the current numbers are not representative of what the case fatality rate would be in the population as a whole).

In the past I’ve read papers by Ioannidis unrelated to this topic. He makes a practice of using sleight of hand to argue for stuff. I’ll note that Stanford preferentially hires faculty who make themselves famous, often by making controversial claims that are often wrong but that generate a lot of buzz (that’s incentivized).

Neddal
Neddal
Apr 1, 2020 9:01 PM

The drive to eliminate uncertainty for the benefit of surveillance capitalism ( https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/24/opinion/sunday/surveillance-capitalism.html ) is alive and well. If there is one thing Dr. Ioannidis along with others across the spectrum of reactions to the COVID-19 phenomenon, except for the marginalized few (https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/28/10-more-experts-criticising-the-coronavirus-panic/), seem to agree on is that this event underscores the need for more data, big data, and complete, comprehensive data. The implication of course is that such data may then be fed into artificially intelligent analytical capabilities which, unlikely mere mortals, will at last be smart enough to decipher the hidden patterns with sufficient competence and reliability to give modern-day oracles and technocrats, along with the herds they shepherd, the minimal levels of confidence they now must have before the stranglehold on life and liberty can be responsibly relaxed.

The current data gaps, the arguments will likely soon ensue, obviously must give added urgency to the roll-out of the 5G networks which had been experiencing a few setbacks of late, and also must provide the wider impetus needed to energize the heretofore rather sluggish and disjointed build-out of Internet of Things infrastructures and corresponding applications in the forms of smart asses and assets, smart cities, smart countries, and smart global order so as to finally bring about that long sought and ultimate technocratic utopia of maximal efficiency and safety under the cozy covers of globalized uberveillance (“What is Uberveillance? – Definition from Techopedia.” 13 Jun. 2019, https://www.techopedia.com/definition/4150/uberveillance.). The term Uberveillance (http://uberveillance.com) “was coined by M.G. Michael in 2006, and expanded upon by Katina Michael.”

So, from the post COVID-19 lessons learned and in line with the Spring 2020 targets for SDG Acceleration Action (https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/sdgactions/about ) Data4Now ( https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/partnership/?p=33636 ) and ID2020 ( https://www.globalresearch.ca/coronavirus-causes-effects-real-danger-agenda-id2020/5706153), we can look forward to the expedited full deployment by beneficent governments and capitalists the world over of, per the definition at technopedia.com ( https://www.techopedia.com/definition/4150/uberveillance ), “objects that can be placed inside the human body to provide precise information about movements and locations. A class of these types of devices are called technotherapeutics, and they can be used in health care to provide doctors and others with critical information about the human body.”

For such a brief and cursory definition, technopedia.com must surely be lauded for pointing out, however mildly, that the “idea of uberveillance raises a variety of questions about privacy and inherent human rights. Some critics base their analysis of uberveillance on the work of philosophers like Michel Foucault, and apply some of the same complex dialectics between security and liberty. Those looking closely at technotherapeutics and other similar devices might describe uberveillance as surveillance from the inside looking out, where these devices may be described as black box technologies for the human body. The idea is that these devices may effectively force individuals to provide detailed information on their movements to outside observers, regardless of whether these are related to government groups or not, and that emerging uses of such technologies may lead to various instances of abusive or dangerous uberveillance in the future.”

For a brief summary of the promise of nanotechnology in medicine, including nonvaccine naturally, see the infographic by Best Health Degrees provided by visualcapitallist.com ( https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-future-of-nanotechnology-in-medicine/). Well, then cheers!

JudyJ
JudyJ
Apr 1, 2020 12:45 PM

If OffG return to the (On)Guardian weekly review slot this article should be top of the list for sheer hypocrisy and lack of awareness of what is going on in their own country. Unbelievable.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/01/viktor-orban-pandemic-power-grab-hungary

(link obtained from OffG Twitter)

IANA
IANA
Apr 1, 2020 11:57 AM

Thanks for this video. A thorough exposition of the situation and a calm thoughtful perspective from someone experienced in this field. What a pleasant response to the fevered fear porn of the MSM etc.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Apr 1, 2020 8:59 AM

None are so blind as those who absolutely refuse to see. They devise all manners of crazy strategies of denial. They people this website in large numbers.

Blubber
Blubber
Apr 1, 2020 8:15 AM

The science community will be grateful for guys like this when the dust settles. Such sceptics are essential to ensure scientific rigour.

I fear this ‘pandemic’ will do for scientists what the Brexit fear mongering did for economists.

Until experts learn that they need to engage with sceptical peers rather than censor them we’ll keep turning dramas into crisis.

Kerry
Kerry
Mar 31, 2020 9:28 PM

I am noticing that all the articles posted here on Off-Guardian are claiming that the virus is a hoax. This to me seems a bit strange as wouldn’t you want to be practising good journalism as opposed to the Guardian, and give a balanced and objective reporting on the virus? All I see here is opinion and content that is very reminiscent of the good ole libertarian stance of some Americans: Me First, and to hell with the consequences for others. From my own extensive reading and with vulnerable family members, I have no choice but to comply with safety measures. I agree that the media has exaggerated all the wrong things, and selfish governments and corporations are taking advantage as they always do, and that the regular flu kills more people etc etc. However creating an equal and opposite kind of denial hysteria is no better OG. Please do better journalism.

Dr. John H
Dr. John H
Mar 31, 2020 9:47 PM
Reply to  Kerry

Did you watch the video? Dr. Ioannidis does not say it is a hoax. What he says is that Authorities made big decisions without good data available, and also used models that way over exaggerate the risk. Now that better data is available, better decisions can be made, but they are not. He also points out the errors that are being made in modeling future risk. These are very simple errors that professionals should not me making.

Wilmers31
Wilmers31
Apr 1, 2020 6:27 AM
Reply to  Dr. John H

I did not watch the video but have read something going in that direction on the German Spiegel where they interviewed a statistitian.

We are making decisions which change the fabric of the world, but we have very few hard facts to base them on. Especially the mortality rate is a stab in the dark, because it measures only those who had been tested positive. The range of symptoms is from nothing to death.

How many will need respirators? Are there really two kinds of that virus? If we do nothing we could have many, many people choking to death including people who hold the fabric of the country together. Aircraft servicemen, medicos, food producers – of each important category you can only take out so much and still function as a country. Whenever they did not err on the side of caution, things went bad, but it is very tempting to advocate for Darwinism.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 2, 2020 11:44 PM
Reply to  Wilmers31

“We are making decisions which change the fabric of the world, but we have very few hard facts to base them on.”

Well that’s pretty unusual for a species like us.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 31, 2020 5:44 AM

30 Mar 2020

US self-isolation measures have been extended to April 30. Rick Sanchez explains. Day laborers in India, left without work and food, are crowding the transit system by the tens of thousands in an effort to return home from urban areas. RT America’s Alex Mihailovich reports. New York remains the epicenter of the country’s coronavirus outbreak, accounting for more than a third of confirmed cases in the US. RT America’s Trinity Chavez reports. UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and a number of other British officials remain in self-isolation as the country steps up its measures to mitigate the COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic. RT’s Polly Boiko reports. Then former UK MP George Galloway weighs in on the COVID-19 situation in Europe. Plus, former Pentagon official Michael Maloof discusses the “catastrophic” prospect of the spread of the pandemic in war-torn Syria.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Mar 31, 2020 3:47 AM

Let’s put forward a number of hypotheses touted and apply Occam’s Razor:

H1. Complete psyop – no special virus, everything’s fake and they let us know, according to their strict psyop rules, with unconvincing presentations of things.

H2. A naturally-occurring novel virus and disease COVID-19 exist but figures are fudged and response is inappropriate.

H3. The novel virus has been manufactured and released deliberately.

Four points which considered in combination favour H1 over both H2 and H3:
1. A number of pre-pandemic events
2. Uniqueness of pathogen manifestation with no explanation for this uniqueness
3. Source of virus nonsensical (Chinese cobra, etc as listed in comment below)
4. Unconvincing presentation of patients in hospital (see my blog post for links)

Can anyone come up with any points favouring either H2 or H3 over H1?
https://occamsrazorterrorevents.weebly.com/blog/coronavirus-hoax-jan-2020

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 31, 2020 5:41 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

As I said before, you don’t have the first scintilla of the first iota of the vaguest understanding of what Occam’s Razor actually means, all your nonsense notwithstanding.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Mar 31, 2020 6:32 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

This is what I say it is:
Occam’s Razor says that, in the absence of evidence of evidence to the contrary, we choose the hypothesis that fits the evidence with the fewest assumptions and questions raised.

What do you say it is, Vierotchka, and can you apply it the alleged COVID-19 pandemic?

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Apr 1, 2020 8:56 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Occam’s razor is the problem-solving principle that states that “Entities should not be multiplied without necessity.” The idea is attributed to English Franciscan friar William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347), a scholastic philosopher and theologian who used a preference for simplicity to defend the idea of divine miracles. It is sometimes paraphrased by a statement like “the simplest solution is most likely the right one”. Occam’s razor says that when presented with competing hypotheses that make the same predictions, one should select the solution with the fewest assumptions,[3] and it is not meant to be a way of choosing between hypotheses that make different predictions.

Similarly, in science, Occam’s razor is used as an abductive heuristic in the development of theoretical models rather than as a rigorous arbiter between candidate models. In the scientific method, Occam’s razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result; the preference for simplicity in the scientific method is based on the falsifiability criterion. For each accepted explanation of a phenomenon, there may be an extremely large, perhaps even incomprehensible, number of possible and more complex alternatives. Since one can always burden failing explanations with ad hoc hypotheses to prevent them from being falsified, simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more testable.

All of the above is the exact opposite of what you do.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Apr 1, 2020 9:13 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

When you say “the exact opposite” please elucidate. You’re just making a meaningless claim.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Apr 1, 2020 9:24 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

So what you’ve done is just copied and pasted the definition of Occam’s Razor from an online source while I used my own words indicating that I’m using it as defined by my own words.

Then you made an unsubstantiated claim that I didn’t use it as it should be used.

You didn’t answer how YOU would use yourself with regard to the alleged COVID-19 pandemic.

And then you accuse me of hot air. Sock puppetry – it’s an art form, isn’t it?

Unless you say something intelligent – certainly not holding my breath – I shall ignore your irritating jibes from now on.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Apr 1, 2020 12:07 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Copy pasted, yes, because typing is painful for my hands.

Okay, are you willing to prove you are right?

If so, go to Madrid and to Lombardy, go to the hospitals and hug the Covid-19 patients without wearing a mask or any protective gear whatsoever, have your visits videotaped and post them here.

Anything short of that simply destroys the little credibility you might have.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Apr 1, 2020 12:17 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

That’s not Occam’s Razor. If I went to a hospital and hugged sick patients how would I know they were suffering from COVID-19?

All you do is keep proving what a sock puppet you are. You engaged in a mindless copy-paste exercise, haven’t explained to me how I’ve used Occam’s Razor incorrectly, haven’t applied it yourself and you’ve just come up with complete nonsense about going to a hospital to hug sick patients which wouldn’t prove anything anyway.

Please do not respond any more. You just say silliness. I know I’ve said it already but this is my last time responding to your stupidity.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Apr 1, 2020 1:18 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

My post was unrelated to Occam’s razor, not even your twisted understanding of it.

My post was a challenge to you – of course you won’t do it because of your manifest cognitive dissonance. You know it is not a hoax, you fear Covid-19 (and rightly so), so you devise all manner of convoluted theories of denial to allay your deep-seated terror.

I can only pity you.

As for my supposed stupidity – Pot.Kettle.Black, cupcake.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 5, 2020 7:58 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

“This is what I say it is:
Occam’s Razor says that, in the absence of evidence of evidence to the contrary, we choose the hypothesis that fits the evidence with the fewest assumptions and questions raised.”

Your help is needed to adjudicate on something.

Definitions and common usage:

  1. Deep-frying course-cut potato juliennes to make chips employs a method of cooking.
  2. Boiling then mashing potatoes to make mash employs a different method of cooking.
  3. Potatoes are not a method, they are an ingredient often used in cooking with those methods.

Situation:

Quarrel resulting in physical assault, blame to be resolved:

Four friends on a night out, one of whom is aggresively parsimonious, one of whom was the driver, saw a fish and chips shop. The driver pulled over and they all chipped in for a late meal. The driver went into the shop and ordered eight pieces of flake and 4 portions of chips, then sat on the greasy bench seat reading the battered copy of Men’s Health until called. Back in the car they found they’d been sold eight pieces of deep-fried battered shark sogging in a bed of mashed potato. The parsimonious friend was particularly incensed. The driver took the parcel back into the shop. “The flake is OK but this white stuff is not chips.” However the shop owner insisted it was chips and refused to replace the order or refund the money. A minute or two later the parsimonious passenger entered the shop and remonstrated with the owner. Again the shop owner insisted that the wet white stuff was chips and refused to replace the order or refund the money whereupon the parsimonious passenger planted a bunch of fish-finger-sized fives right in the middle of the owner’s physiognomy and stormed out of the shop while the shop owner’s wife noted their number plate and phoned the police.

Question:

Were there any mitigating circumstances to be taken into account before the police arrested one of the passengers in a parked car about half a kilometer from a fish and chip shop whose occupants were found licking their fingers after littering the street with a cumpled parcel full of and several thrown handfuls of soft, wet white stuff ?

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Apr 1, 2020 2:11 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

You’ve exposed yourself, no, Vierotchka? You have just made a claim without any thought to back it up. I think the sock puppet methodology is just to fling whatever no matter how false, knowing that it will somehow have the desired influence, isn’t it, especially as I think a bit differently from many others on OffG and that what I say often evokes antipathy (some of it probably from sock puppets like yourself although certainly some is perfectly genuine). You will notice though your last comment got 3 downvotes while mine has 2 upvotes and I think we know who made the downvote, don’t we?

I’d very much appreciate it if you didn’t pollute my comments with your piffle but I can’t stop you, can I? I will, however, endeavour to expose you whenever you do pollute my comments and I will keep the link to your exposing comment as a reference link to use as part of my effort.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Apr 1, 2020 8:57 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

I see that you have zero tolerance to being proven wrong!

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Apr 1, 2020 9:15 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Not at all, very willing to be proven wrong and that is why I’ve issued my 10-point $5,000 Occam’s Razor challenge – to which no one has responded.
https://occamsrazorterrorevents.weebly.com/5000-challenge.html

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Apr 1, 2020 12:14 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Who cares about your challenge? Intelligent people avoid your blog.

I repeat:

Okay, are you willing to prove you are right?

If so, go to Madrid and to Lombardy, go to the hospitals and hug the Covid-19 patients without wearing a mask or any protective gear whatsoever, have your visits videotaped and post the videos here.

Anything short of that simply destroys the little credibility you might have.

Porca miseria!

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 2, 2020 11:51 PM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

“I’ve issued my 10-point $5,000 Occam’s Razor challenge – to which no one has responded.”

When are you going to adjust for inflation? Five thousand bucks gets (and costs) you less and less by the day.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Apr 3, 2020 12:12 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

I ensured when I issued the challenge that no one would be able to respond, Robbo. Time has proven me correct. The amount is immaterial – it’s a gimmick – the challenge is aimed at those who passionately support the opposing hypothesis and for those, money is not the driver. I know I could make it $1M and it wouldn’t make any difference. Obviously, if whatever I claim is true then the case cannot be made for the opposite. It must be what I claim or the opposite, there’s no in between and, for example, where there may be effectively an “in between” as in death and injury I don’t claim no one died, I say “death and injury were staged” and “3,000 dead and 6,000 injured is a lie” both of which can accommodate some death and injury. I doubt there was any but there could have been. Certainly, though, we see no evidence of it.

But if a higher amount would make a difference to you, Robbo, in responding, let me know and I’ll raise it, assuming I can afford it – perhaps we can negotiate. Even though I absolutely know – especially by now – that no one can respond I feel it would be unethical to put an amount I can’t afford.

Blubber
Blubber
Mar 31, 2020 8:50 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

So Petra we’re witnessing the grand finale of the pandemic table top exercise?

All conversations / life moved online for the duration, so that the AI can learn as much about our responses, needs, mental and social vulnerabilities as possible and can therefore handle the planning directly and more efficiently next time.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Apr 1, 2020 1:51 AM
Reply to  Blubber

Looks like it, Blubber … and we have to wonder what else lies in store. Emergency powers to rob us of our money?

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Mar 31, 2020 12:36 AM

Why do people keep talking as if there were a virus but it’s not causing the problems stated? It’s like talking as if the Emperor is half-dressed when he’s wearing no clothes at all.

There is not a skerrick of evidence for this so-called novel virus. Not a skerrick – and there is significant evidence against it. And we knew from Day One because on Day One we got the very obvious signs of a psyop with the alleged reservoirs being Chinese cobras, many-banded kraits, pangolins, bats, foxes and hedgehogs, people falling flat on their faces, people laid out on the pavement, etc.

And we knew that we wouldn’t be shown patients who seemed genuinely sick in hospital because the MO of psyops is very, very strict. They could have used genuine patients sick with some kind of virus or with pneumonia but they didn’t. They always make their fakery obviously fake. They don’t cheat and go for real in a sneaky way even when they could.

Common sense
What pathogen known to man manifests in a vast number of infected as asymptomatic or with very mild symptoms and yet is actually very dangerous? Could a type of coronavirus (responsible for colds) be so utterly novel that it would manifest in this way?

Pre-pandemic
— Event 201, tabletop pandemic exercise, held in October 2019, partnered by the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, the World Economic Forum and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
— Positions advertised for Quarantine Advisors as early as November 15 2019
— Netflix docuseries on preventing pandemics
— And we have an episode of the Simpsons all the way back from 2010 that presages the current alleged pandemic, which talked of instigating the next phoney-baloney crisis of a public health scare

All coincidences?

Testing
No evidence that virus can be isolated
Testing not done but numbers produced
Lies about queues for testing

Unconvincing patients
We have unconvincing patients, one of whom, while showing her wrist with what looks like a cannula attached says, “They’ve had to sew that into my artery.”

All these prominent doctors are indicating the truth but they’re not going the whole way – which is only to be expected, isn’t it? And I think we can be certain that some of them at least know that this is a psyop and that there is no virus. So tired of lies and half-truths especially when the truth is, in fact, laid right before our eyes.

For links to above and more https://occamsrazorterrorevents.weebly.com/blog/coronavirus-hoax-jan-2020

Off-topic: The lies they drown us in and that people so readily swallow really make me despair but this video that popped up on YouTube of a pianist playing Moonlight Sonata to an 61-year-old elephant in the moonlight is such a lovely pearl in the dross.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 31, 2020 1:38 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

There is not a skerrick of evidence that you exist. Not a skerrick. Zilch. Nada. Zero.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Mar 31, 2020 4:04 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

As John McEnroe used to say, “You cannot be serious.”

If you google my name you will see my presence all over the place, including photos, while you on the other hand go under an anonymous moniker. I do really, really wonder who YOU are Vierotchka. I certainly have my doubts.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 31, 2020 5:37 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

LOL! Who bloody cares?

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Mar 31, 2020 7:52 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

I certainly don’t care whether you’re a “useful idiot” or a sock puppet, Vierotchka. By the amount of hot air you puff I tend to think sock puppet but, as I say, it don’t matter either way. I’m much more interested in what people say rather than who they are and, after all, controlled opposition can deliver an astonishing amount of truth – you strike me very much more on the sock puppet side rather than controlled opposition because I haven’t noticed any interesting truth coming out of your mouth.

Controlled opposition working within the psyop rules can actually deliver more truth than those who are genuine but feel constrained. For example Dr Wolfgang Wodarg actually speaks of the Emperor’s New Clothes. A genuine scientist keeping their words diplomatic would never dare to speak of the Emperor’s New Clothes. I do love that little touch, actually saying the Emperor’s New Clothes.

Wilmers31
Wilmers31
Apr 1, 2020 6:38 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

I have stopped caring if that virus exists. It has set WWIII back by at least a year.

Now that is an enormous leap forward for mankind! Military activities in Norway and the Baltics cancelled and the Roosevelt is stuck in Guam. Dysfunctionality reduces risks of war – delicioso!

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Apr 1, 2020 9:01 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Your posts emanate from a huge hot air factory. I reckon that in real life, you exhaust others by your tremendous love of hearing your own voice. You’re a pseudo intellectual and you do not fool the truly intelligent.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 31, 2020 1:53 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Human Coronavirus Types

Coronaviruses are named for the crown-like spikes on their surface. There are four main sub-groupings of coronaviruses, known as alpha, beta, gamma, and delta.

Human coronaviruses were first identified in the mid-1960s. The seven coronaviruses that can infect people are:

Common human coronaviruses

  1. 229E (alpha coronavirus)
  2. NL63 (alpha coronavirus)
  3. OC43 (beta coronavirus)
  4. HKU1 (beta coronavirus)

Other human coronaviruses

  1. MERS-CoV (the beta coronavirus that causes Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, or MERS)
  2. SARS-CoV (the beta coronavirus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS)
  3. SARS-CoV-2 (the novel coronavirus that causes coronavirus disease 2019, or COVID-19)

People around the world commonly get infected with human coronaviruses 229E, NL63, OC43, and HKU1.

Sometimes coronaviruses that infect animals can evolve and make people sick and become a new human coronavirus. Three recent examples of this are 2019-nCoV, SARS-CoV, and MERS-CoV.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/types.html

Did you have a point in your insane delirium?

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Mar 31, 2020 3:34 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Vierotchka, Can you name another pathogen that infects thousands and thousands of people who are either asymptomatic or only suffering mild symptoms but at the same time is extremely dangerous requiring strict isolation measures?

One can only think of 9/11, can’t one, and the unprecedented collapse of three high-rise steel frame buildings from fire – never seen before or since.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 31, 2020 5:37 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

That was not the point. Stay focused.

eli
eli
Apr 2, 2020 3:45 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

Well said. Check out this video https://youtu.be/Xr8Dy5mnYx8

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 5, 2020 1:19 AM
Reply to  eli

Interestin

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 11, 2020 12:41 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Oops. Button/finger fail. Should read: interesting point about 5G.

Somewhere on the Internet there is a list of all the trials for 5G in Europe over the last few years. A simple Google search will indicate where. Everywhere on the Internet is information about all the COVID-19 ‘clusters’ anywhere. Even Google searches for ‘East 33rd Street” or “Capetown” are likely to reveal several. A hypothesizable proposition arising from Kaufman’s question about the relationship between 5G exposure and the exosomes he thinks could be misinterpreted as the SARS-CoV-2 virus in tests for COVID-19 might be frameable from the data provided therein…

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 3, 2020 12:23 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

That video is an obvious fake. Not only do they never show Mongkol’s front left leg, which is clearly chained. So he doesn’t run off trumpeting. He doesn’t trumpet at all. It’s so obvious he doesn’t like classical human music and absolutely hates the piano. He just keeps trying to flap it all away with his ear lobes. All we ever hear is the piano. No trumpet. And I’ve measured the pianist’s fingers. With my ruler, which I held up against the screen. They’re different lengths, The fingers on his right hand don’t match the fingers on his right hand.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Apr 3, 2020 12:32 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

LOL.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 5, 2020 8:12 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

“LOL”

Is your sister still reasonably sane?

Ablehockey
Ablehockey
Apr 9, 2020 8:18 AM
Reply to  Petra Liverani

And we have an episode of the Simpsons all the way back from 2010 that presages the And we have an episode of the Simpsons all the way back from 2010 that presages the current alleged pandemic, which talked of instigating the next phoney-baloney crisis of a public health scare.

So part of your argument is based on an episode of a fictional TV cartoon show? Do you think that constitutes proof? Did you ever take a critical thinking class in your life? You’re kidding, right?

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Apr 9, 2020 11:43 AM
Reply to  Ablehockey

Did I say it constituted proof? It doesn’t constitute proof but it supports the hypothesis. Not every piece of evidence needs to act as proof but they can act as a support, no? And then we could look at so very many other things that we see alluded to in the Simpsons before they happened. The writers of this show obviously have inside information. No question about it.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+simpsons+predict

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 30, 2020 8:17 PM

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 31, 2020 1:39 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Two downvotes by people who didn’t even bother to watch the videos! LOL! Candidates for the Darwin Awards, all of ye.

JudyJ
JudyJ
Mar 30, 2020 3:02 PM

And of course we are still being bombarded by the media with ‘coronavirus tragedies’. Two more middle-aged to elderly doctors were reported to have died yesterday ‘after contracting’ Covid-19. I have found an article on one of them, just to see the circumstances, and tragic though his death is, I note a sentence in the text which says that “He had not been in contact with his patients in recent weeks”. Points once again to underlying causes. The BBC website report doesn’t include that detail.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-29/consultant-55-dies-after-testing-positive-for-coronavirus/

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 30, 2020 8:19 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

From the onset of symptoms to death, it takes 4 to 6 weeks.

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 10:00 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Who says?

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 31, 2020 1:36 AM
Reply to  clickkid

It so has been observed time and time again, pumpkin.

JudyJ
JudyJ
Mar 31, 2020 10:47 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

I wasn’t inclined to join in these ‘medical’ exchanges but I have to say this doesn’t appear to answer clickkid’s simple and reasonable question. I don’t think the answer you’ve given quite ‘cuts it’ as a definitive response. You may well be right but such detail has evaded me so far, so it would indeed be useful for me to be able to quote chapter and verse on this when I am discussing the latest available information with friends who are also following developments.

Petra Liverani
Petra Liverani
Mar 31, 2020 1:12 AM
Reply to  JudyJ

Just another clue, Judy, if we need one. And he’s 55! Masonic multiple of 11.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 5, 2020 1:57 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

“Points once again to underlying causes. The BBC website report doesn’t include that detail.”

We know why your upvoters upvoted but is there any reason why you don’t add an ‘IMO’ or ‘in my mind’ to the first sentence, other than infallible clairvoyance? Your second sentence might be taken to mean had that detail and deliberately excluded it. Short of an unfailing clairvoyance, why would you not similary qualify that?

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 5, 2020 2:00 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

For “…taken to mean had that detail…” read “taken to mean the BBC had that detail”.

Magggie
Magggie
Mar 30, 2020 2:21 PM

How come big ears makes a miraculous recovery and no longer has to self isolate???

Geoff
Geoff
Mar 30, 2020 8:24 PM
Reply to  Magggie

Because as we know, he probably never had it, it was made to look as if he’s just a the same as us.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Mar 30, 2020 1:03 PM

Bozi’s letter is beast dealt with by a

‘Return to Sender’
No 10 Downing Street
SW1

We can all do our bit for the Royal Mail by keeping them busy.

Fim
Fim
Mar 30, 2020 12:54 PM

The backtracking continues apace – with the “lockdown” being credited for a slowdown of admittance to critical care unit beds.

They are not going to get away with this. Some people will have to go to jail.

ICNARC’s new “Covid-19” report: the disease is still discriminatory (despite efforts to find young and healthy victims); peak hinted at?

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 1:10 PM
Reply to  Fim

Would be nice, but the higher up idiots are all implicated with no less than the Bozo Stalin klown.He would have explain why He based his actions on the calculations of a known incompetent, failed quack and ignored other advice and opinion.
Nah, this was all planned and they are probably noting how long they got away it before the plug had to be pulled.
Five Trillion dollars of real assets assimilated by the borg banksters, the get away car is speading off into the sunset.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 1:11 PM
Reply to  jay

oops “speeding..”.

Fim
Fim
Mar 30, 2020 2:11 PM
Reply to  jay

How about getting up on the old hind legs at long last?

How about people start thinking and acting so that ours becomes a world where, when we think politicians and public officials are criminals and should go to jail, then they go to jail?

I think and say some people will have to go to jail, ergo some people are going to jail.
Because when I can create a certain weight of people who think and say the same, the action will follow. The criminals will go to jail.

Everyone, try it out: take your forefeet off the ground. Those things are not meant for walking around on. They are called hands, and they are for bending the world to your will. Go on! Try it!

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 3:29 PM
Reply to  Fim

crank
crank
Mar 30, 2020 12:47 PM

Appollo sure did cast a cruel curse upon Cassandra.
Friends, family, acquaintences and strangers all chime in with “hope things get back to normal soon”.
The Fed have joined forces with the US Treasury and Blackrock. But if I try to tell them that however this plays out, things will never ‘get back to normal’, I am attacked.
It is understandable.
I think we should implement a new name for the masses : ‘lockdown deniers’.

lundiel
lundiel
Mar 30, 2020 12:31 PM

I’ve not been looking at media/press coverage but I can see the results for myself. People are going out of their way to avoid walking close to others. I walk my dog in the park every day and people will veer off, taking a 10-metre detour rather than pass at less than 2-metres. Then there are runners, mostly in their 20s and 30s running, I kid you not, in masks. I see an old couple every day with scarves around their mouths, they look as if they’re suffering from gas inhalation.
It’s only been a week and people are exhibiting signs of mental illness.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 12:50 PM
Reply to  lundiel

I tried to talk to an Asda worker, just gauging opinion…
He held up his hands at me, screaming in a high pitch, pannicked little girl voice “stay AWAY from me…stay AWAY from me….”
A grown man, I ask you…

Gary Weglarz
Gary Weglarz
Mar 31, 2020 12:29 AM
Reply to  jay

The same folks who swallowed hook, line and sinker the whole – “Skripnals and two perfume bottles full of novichock,” nonsense, the “Russia and Putin hacked American’s ‘democracy'” flight of fantasy, and the “Assad is gassing his own people for fun” propaganda operation – are all no doubt on board with this latest bit of MSM manufactured mass hysteria. They simply believe everything they are told no matter how ludicrous.

Most people have a hard enough time thinking critically and independently in the best of circumstances. When under siege by a fear-inducing propaganda operation all hope of rational thought processes quickly disappear for most – sadly – our current state of affairs providing a excellent case study.

kbucks
kbucks
Mar 30, 2020 1:00 PM
Reply to  lundiel

I went to the shop yesterday & used cash – your man behind the counter (& new sheet of persplex glass) moved back in disgust, hesitated for a few seconds & then took it.

Madness, complete & utter madness…

Sean
Sean
Mar 30, 2020 10:58 PM
Reply to  kbucks

That’s was tough on him. I always use cash – – don’t have any cards, nor do I want them – – so, if they don’t want to handle it, they can get their superior to do so.

Thom
Thom
Mar 30, 2020 1:08 PM
Reply to  lundiel

Bizarre, isn’t it? I’d understand if there was some new form of airborne smallpox or polio going round, say, but the coronavirus isn’t much worse than a cold for most people.
But there is an upside to all this – we’ll never hear of ‘man flu’ again!

Grafter
Grafter
Mar 30, 2020 2:00 PM
Reply to  Thom

Have just spoken to 3 bus drivers and asked them about the deadly virus. They all told the same story that there was no infection among staff and that everything was quite normal. No masks are worn and no signs of anything approaching the fear being peddled by our corrupt MSM.

fred
fred
Mar 31, 2020 1:21 AM
Reply to  lundiel

Indeed. What are they thinking? That everybody else is a “walking dead”? That’s what you would have to believe to act that way.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Mar 30, 2020 12:26 PM

The Chinese cavalry is coming.

https://twitter.com/samharveyrural/status/1244328444994949124

Samantha Harvey on Twitter: “Medical team arrived London from China on Friday #TogetherWeCan #Covid_19 https://t.co/0I3jenW4pK” / Twitter

——
Interesting labels on the sides of the boxes – union jacks and Keep Calm slogans!

Are they Hong Kongese? Or from Wuhan?

Can anyone confirm?

Dale maybe?

George Mc
George Mc
Mar 30, 2020 12:25 PM

You recall that neo-con document “Rebuilding America’s Defenses” with its

“Further, the process of transformation…is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor.”

Here’s an article from the WSWS last year:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/07/18/beds-j18.html

It concerns Dr. Nick Scriven, the president of the Society for Acute Medicine:

This month Scriven stepped up his warnings to declare that a significant health disaster could rapidly overwhelm the NHS.

I’m not implying that Scriven is part of some sinister cabal. Only that what he says here is true. And there are others who know.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Mar 30, 2020 12:24 PM

The tensions that drove the plutocracy to this point were speared by Jennifer Matsui in November 2019.
“…the plutocracy will no longer countenance ANY ruptures or least resistance to the neoliberal dragnet it has cast over the earth.
Stealth measures, long-range in scope with consequences that take more time to profitably reap, are insufficient for the task at hand: Stamp out all impediments to capitalism. “Step an inch away from the demarcated line that your chain gang is instructed to keep within, and you will be shot.”
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/11/29/the-impunity-doctrine-the-meek-shall-be-buried-beneath-the-earth/

TFS
TFS
Mar 30, 2020 12:08 PM

Just wondering with how much vigor the Police in various countries are gonna see this as a opportunity to the fleece the public in fines.

Americas cops are past masters at this.

My favourite American fraud of all time is the concept of Eminent Domain, first raised by Aaron Russo (Mad as Hell) over 20yrs ago.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Mar 30, 2020 7:23 PM
Reply to  TFS

Nothing to do with being “Master of one’s Domain”, I take it”.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Mar 30, 2020 11:14 AM

Transcribed from minute 7 in the interview:

“The early estimates [for swine flu and other earlier outbreaks of similar novel viruses] suggested this would have a tremendous amount of mortality and the cumulative number of deaths would be amazing. Eventually the number of deaths would be far more modest than the original projections. This doesn’t mean that with the new Coronavirus we will see the same story again. It could be that, if not this one, maybe some other new pathogen in the future will reach that prediction of really exceeding by far what we commonly see every season with influenza.”

In the remainder of the video Ioannidis laments the lack of data and the need to set up systems so we can determine much faster the parameters on which to base meaningful decisions about countermeasures to best mitigate the medical downsides of this and future epidemics, while avoiding the possible over enforcement of misplaced quarantine measures that can destroy the livelihood and thus the future health of many more people than maximally-informed, minimum applications of the particular precautionary principle that characterizes quarantine as presently deployed.

The video was recorded on 23 March, just over a week ago. Transcribed from minute 62:

“As you [the interviewer] know, I’m in shelter in place [‘lockdown’, ‘self-isolation’] myself now and I will continue this and I’m OK with this but I want to get the data to decide whether that should stop…”

In other words, he doesn’t know either.

So get a fucking grip.

We can start doing that by reviewing what we do know, and it has nothing to do with any Coronavius but rather with all of them, and with all other pathogenic and non-pathogenic crises, from infestations of headlice in schoolchildren on up.

  • We know that amongst any government of any complexion, including ‘democratic’ governments of those who have sought and won political office by the unrigged ballot box, enough members will–above all else–be power-hungry psychopaths and/or made men who will use every opportunity possible to extend their power and control over their government, their party and the citizenry, by any means possible; they will find every reason to maintain all such powers put in place by their predecessors including those introduced on purportedly temporary bases; they will avoid revocation of their own tempory measures to the maximum feasible extent; and they will find or engineer there to be a sufficient number of like-minded bottom feeders in their (in no particular order) bureaucracies, militaries, judiciaries, police forces, media, local governments, businesses and so on, to effect and amplify their efforts with as much zeal as they can muster.
  • We know that because we have seen it happening exponentially, in plain view, since we first started clucking and flapping about it when, for most of us, the general public, the emergence of Big Data and the first signs of its potential maleffects surfaced in the public mind nearly half a century ago.
  • And we have known that all attempts to impose greater control over the population have always been facilitated by public crises, since long before Rahm Emanuel uttered his somewhat misinterpreted (given his intended meaning) but still relevant rephrasing for our times, “Never let a good crisis go to waste.”
  • Furthermore, we know that the manipulation and even manipulation of crises is always as rampant as general credibility (which always sets a low bar) will permit.

These behaviours are a common factor in all manifestations of politics and in all its submanifestations such as, in this case, the politics of crisis. As such, we can factor them out. Ignore them. Exclude them. In studying the specifics of a crisis–medical, natural disaster, etc–they add nothing of value, they are simply noise; noise that positively invites the generation of more, potentially overwhelming noise.

That does not mean that examination of the latest perversions of the political power complex in a specific crisis is inappropriate but it does mean that the determination of the specifics of a specific crisis (will that asteroid actually impact earth, how much precaution is appropriate, if necessary should/can it be nuked or should/can it be nudged aside, etc) is not well served by incorporating into that discussion a discussion of the latest perversions of the neverending political powergrab, in or out of crisis situations, which–in such a context–is a separate topic, BigB’s yoga and Binra’s shamanism notwithstanding. At appropriate points the two (and quite other factors) can and should feed into each other as relevant externalities, but conflating them potentially–perhaps inevitably–denatures both or all, preventing meaninful engagement with either or any.

In that light is unfortunate that editorial bias within the Off-Guardian has misinterpreted its own express editorial mission to provide a platform for otherwise unheard counters to the mass narrative as, in this case, the presentation of two distinct topics, both requiring separate but related attention, in the form of an undifferentiated whole. Disservice as a service.

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 11:25 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

“In that light is unfortunate that editorial bias within the Off-Guardian has misinterpreted its own express editorial mission to provide a platform for otherwise unheard counters to the mass narrative ”

For me the matter is simple.

The dominant narrative is telling us that we face a huge threat.

OffG presents the data, togther with interpretation, which shows us that the narrative is not supported by the data.

I may be a bit slow, but it seems that you think that OffG is conflating two factors.

Would you mind spelling that out clearly for me please?

What those two factors are?

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 12:23 PM
Reply to  clickkid

Is it actually a bot?

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Mar 31, 2020 8:28 AM
Reply to  clickkid

“I may be a bit slow, but it seems that you think that OffG is conflating two factors.

Would you mind spelling that out clearly for me please?

What those two factors are?”

I spelt it out. Hold your own hand.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 11:35 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

So, in summary what you are saying is, that cv19 is a real threat.
But we should not be fearmongered in a selfish way which does not have an added motive of a power grab ie just pure at heart, altruistic fearmongering.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Mar 31, 2020 8:43 AM
Reply to  jay

“So, in summary what you are saying is, that cv19 is a real threat.”

May or may not be threat enough to justify current lockdown measures. TBC pending adequate data. As the man in the picture above says.

“But we should not be fearmongered in a selfish way which does not have an added motive of a power grab ie just pure at heart, altruistic fearmongering.”

Have you ever heard of Barbara Cartland? Look her up. Could be your sort of gal.

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
Mar 30, 2020 12:28 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

The reality is that , for every new epidemic caused by a novel agent, you will not have the tools to gather mass data immediately.

First you must identify and isolate the disease vector.

Secondly, you must develop diagnostic tests to carry out the population data trawl.

It is inevitable that there is a time lag between disease emergence and mass data collection.

This time it is about 3-4 months, which is hardly slow.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Mar 31, 2020 9:26 AM
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

“The reality is that , for every new epidemic caused by a novel agent, you will not have the tools to gather mass data immediately.”

Not so. We can easily and relatively cheaply prepare (political will plus unobstructive bureaucracy) the tools to gather mass data pretty much in real time but even if they are there we may not have enough data to arrive at reasonably reliable conclusions immediately. But even there the development of Sequential Analysis by Abraham Wald and others, plus the significant refinements of and extensions to Wald’s original formulation by later statisticians, offer substantial assistance in obtaining good provisional analyses impressively quickly. I have mentioned this before, in an Off-Guardian BTL, I think on this topic even, but if one associates with congregations of dorks one speaks to a majority of cloth ears.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Mar 30, 2020 12:33 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Gosh Robbo, i applaud the latest cut of your jib!

Have extra rum rations for the mention of the Chicago president makers and killers and Rahm Emmanuel- best known for installing Obama and pocketing trillions in QE for his Pathocracy and then instantly abandoning the WestWing to return to his palace within months.

A Kissinger heir no doubt.

Admin1
Admin
Admin1
Mar 30, 2020 11:15 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

@Robbobbobob

Our ‘editorial bias’ is toward data and away from speculation. We think the current pandemic is far too important in every respect to be subject to uninformed speculation or too much theory.

So far we have published:

1. official Italian Health authorities breakdown of their apparently inflated fatality rates

2. expert testimony (2 articles) that offers a measured and informed critique of the efficacy of lockdown, and a breakdown of the epidemiology

3. A look at aspects of the Coronavirus Act and it’s unprecedented destruction of basic freedoms, including concerning relaxation of safeguards over the registration of deaths

4. An overview of the various authoritarian measures being put in place around the world and the question of their relevance and proportionality.

5. This interview with Ioannidis, which you apparently find helpful but for some reason attack us for posting.

And more…

If we had a ‘grip’ what would we be doing in your opinion?

Publishing unsourced viral videos of alleged health workers making unproven claims about the levels of infection and mortality not so far borne out in any stats?

Publishing equally unsourced social media posts from unverified people claiming family members as covid victims, absent any evidence?

Publishing MSM media memes about overcrowded ICUs without any context or data or comparison to seasonal norms?

Publishing decontextualised images of refrigerated trucks claiming they are being used as morgues, and offering no proof whatsoever?

Just screaming a lot?

If this is indeed what you mean by “getting a grip” I’m afraid we can’t oblige, because our standards of journalism are too high to permit. However you will find yourself well catered for in the mainstream where you are free to share panic scenarios based on faulty reasoning and absent data to your heart’s content.

But don’t try to use your ignorance and hysteria as a stick to beat the better informed and rational.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Mar 31, 2020 8:21 AM
Reply to  Admin1

“If we had a ‘grip’ what would we be doing in your opinion?”

I took a long time to write that post to be as careful as possible saying exactly what I meant, even though what I suggested amounts to a minimal, almost trivial, trimming of the sails rather than any substantive change of course. If you won’t read it, you won’t read it.

“If this is indeed what you mean by “getting a grip…”

The grippers, plural, I was referring to were primarily the avalanche of tiny brained BTLers currently panicking about an oncoming depression and the general unveiling of the fascist nature of practically all nation states in such times by attributing long standing epidemic contagion control measures such as those now being deployed against COVID-19 the status of a coverup for the causes of that depression, which it may be, by co-option on the part of those who don’t like wasting a good crisis, but which response by volubles like many BTLers actually does nothing to help resolve the problem of how to handle novel communicable diseases in ways that provide a real (read ‘intelligent’) basis for accepting or refuting such control measures. As the man in the picture above says.

Insofar as getting a grip referred to the Off-Guardian itself, that was in an addendum of a final paragraph where the Off-Guardian was, essentially, only a trivially involved third party whose culpability is primarily only that of using a single sledgehammer to shell two nuts simulaneously, one of which requires a heavy duty demolition rig and the other of which requires something more like a scalpel. Ooo, oversensitive with it.

“But don’t try to use your ignorance and hysteria as a stick to beat the better informed and rational.”

Without looking it up and with the answer being of value only to you so no response is worth the effort, do you know what a ‘glm Poisson regression’ (referred to by MOMO in its analysis of mortality data as presented in the next-up article “Covid19 yet to impact Europe’s overall mortality”) is?

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 11:04 AM

A light-hearted tip for a bit of revenge on a supermarket, that you know refuses to take cash.

Do lots of shopping – preferably mumerous small items. When it’s all gone through the till, express your astonishment at their refusal to pay cash, walk away and let them spend the next hour putting everything back on the shelves.

Make ’em pay for it.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 11:13 AM
Reply to  clickkid

Well, I like ice cream.

milosevic
milosevic
Mar 30, 2020 11:55 AM
Reply to  clickkid

for added fun, make a point of ostentatiously coughing and sneezing on the pile of groceries, before you walk away.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 11:58 AM
Reply to  milosevic

Oh, my how funnee you are are, haha.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Mar 30, 2020 7:29 PM
Reply to  clickkid

The price will be “paid” by staff who had no say in the policy of taking cash or not.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 10:23 AM

GNUs FALSH: Pandemic causes death rates to decrease. There have been 128,271 deaths in England and Wales so far in 2020, compared with an average for the same time of year for the past five years of 133,165.

milosevic
milosevic
Mar 30, 2020 10:29 AM
Reply to  jay

without wanting to question your information, please provide references for all such statistics.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 10:51 AM
Reply to  milosevic

The figures are published and easily accessible on the National Statistics website.
I welcome and invite you to indeed check these figures, please do so, fell free to correct me.
You can find a calculator online.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 10:54 AM
Reply to  jay

oops “feel”…

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
Mar 30, 2020 12:30 PM
Reply to  milosevic
Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Mar 30, 2020 11:24 AM
Reply to  jay

“Pandemic causes death rates to decrease.”

While it is probably the case that you can do basic arithmetic (I haven’t checked the National Statistics website, I note your methodology and take your word for it) tt would seem, BICBW, that you would not know a Stat if it ran up and bit your iStick. Unless, of course, you are on a mission to take the piss out of the tinfoil hat brigade.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 11:41 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Facts always seem to be so redundant when “a sad looking nurse” caries the GNUs…

Admin1
Admin
Admin1
Mar 30, 2020 11:26 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

I haven’t checked the National Statistics website

The link has been provided, but you prefer to sneer at the claim being made than check in its accuracy?

You’re suffering from cognitive dissonance perhaps. This might be a time to pause and reflect.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Mar 31, 2020 9:41 AM
Reply to  Admin1

“The link has been provided, but you prefer to sneer at the claim being made than check in its accuracy?”

I snoor at nothing. I said I took jay’s word for it. That means I took jay’s word for it.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 2, 2020 8:04 AM
Reply to  Admin1

“The link has been provided, but you prefer to sneer at the claim being made than check in its accuracy?”

Update.

I have yet again wasted part of my life double-checking something noted here for, it turns out on so checking, no good reason (although being goaded into it by an Admin rather than a BTLer is probably a step up in any associated accorded exaltation {or some word like that}).

Pursuant to that, on visiting the ONS site I found that not a lot differs now from what I found during a period of several years in the 1960s, except an increase in superficial sophistication and an amazing increase in accessibility (which can be a two-edged sword) when I was heavily involved–in the sense of “paying the rent”–with the production and use of statistics-based information and, as a result, found myself continually referring to the output of the ONS’s predecessors or conferring with various members of their staffs.

With regard to the attention they are giving to COVID-19, I found nothing of value in their hastily patched up responses that would surprise any of the politicians middle-managing the goverments currently engaged on ‘locking down’ their populations. Was that the ‘accuracy’ you decided I had been snubbing?

Unfortunately, they are looking for love in all the wrong places because the highly developed systems of collecting and collating raw data that ONS and its predecessors have put in place over the years (and need to keep in place for their historical tracking role) are simply not (yet) collecting in an appropriately integrated way the differentiated raw data needed to address the question of COVID-19 overhype (or not)–where ‘differentiated’ is used in the sense it has in clinical ‘differential diagnosis’ but applied to public rather than personal health–regardless of the amount of subsequent analysis: in their case both not a lot and insufficiently specialized).
Rhys Jaggar and I briefly touch on this point in an earlier thread under this article.

As it happens, my prior knowledge of official statistics general methodology and the current status of reliable raw COVID-19 data collection (abysmal), along with jay’s very brief but clear description of what he was reporting, made it clear that his report was accurate but his perception of the limiting factors concerned (significantly more than those mentioned in the exchange with Rhys) was almost certainly absent. Good reasons to save time and take his word for what he discovered

Regarding your charge of ‘sneering’: I realize that you interpreted my Stati-Stick remark as a sneer. In a sense it was, but at jay’s (and many other’s) use of irrelevant statistics to support a point the raw statistics (i.e. the actually collected data) cannot, in themselves, resolve. There are truths, lies, damned lies, statistics, misinterpreted statistics, irrelevant statistics, statistical ignorants, all sorts of statistics… Re statistical ignorants, lots of people can’t do calculus either. One difference between those who can’t do calculus and those who can’t do statistics is that the former almost always know they can’t. You may know the acronym ‘GIGO’ but ‘NRRDINMSAO’ probably less so: ‘No Relevant Raw Data In, No Meaningful Statistical Analysis Out’. Yes, ‘sneering’ probably does describe my Stat-iStick comment: someone who arrives with a bulldozer to attend to a window box herb garden is probably not only ignorant of the basics of window box gardening but also probably deserving of a bit of a laugh of the possibly-sneering sort. I mean, do you have any idea how much it costs to hire a bulldozer just to restrain the inevitable overgrowth of a couple of sprigs of mint?

“You’re suffering from cognitive dissonance perhaps. This might be a time to pause and reflect.”

I was suffering from cognitive dissonance towards the end of the academic encounter with statistics I mentioned above, as I came to realize–even back then–that occupational academia was becoming–or maybe always had been–just another shop floor. These days I would probably have realized it before I even considered getting sucked in, financialization being what it is rather than because of any added perceptivity on my part. Anyways, a long time ago I did take time to pause and reflect and switch my source of payable rent to something quite different. But thanks for the belated good advice.

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
Mar 30, 2020 2:24 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Robbobobin The Office for National Statistics deaths information that you have been referred to provides the actual number of registered deaths for each week. It helpfully compares the number with the five yearly average for the corresponding week. If you bother to look at this real data, you will see that fewer people are dying. This is the exact opposite of what we would expect to see if the virus were the serious public health problem that it is being presented as.

Incidentally, in previous years we have repeatedly seen more people dying than the five yearly average, but never did it result in trampling upon our rights and liberties and the trashing of the economy, which seems back to front, if you think about it.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Apr 2, 2020 9:31 AM
Reply to  Steve Hayes

Hi Steve —

“This is the exact opposite of what we would expect to see if the virus were the serious public health problem that it is being presented as.”

Only if you’re simple-minded. There were fewer total goals scored in the first division this week than the arithmetical average of the previous five years for the same week. This is the exact opposite of what we would expect to see if Everton’s performance were all it is being cracked up to be.

“Incidentally, in previous years we have repeatedly seen more people dying than the five yearly average, but never did it result in trampling upon our rights and liberties and the trashing of the economy, which seems back to front, if you think about it.”

ICBW but don’t think the fat lady has sung yet. However, whether she has or not the official response to this event is more than serious enough in itself for discussions about it to consider it in itself. If it really is a communicable disease that can have devastating pan-national socio-economic consequences as a result of that communicability then the most important aspect of the current event that we can discuss is how to (re)structure our more immediate politico-economic responses to any such emergency, real or mistaken, without all sorts dwibble about the contingencies of any particular emergency diverting full attention from that, because it is likely to take all the time between this problem and the next to get even just half an acceptable idea together. Similarly, getting the trigger for this current state of emergency determined as being real or mistaken is a separate, equally technical, historically less important but more urgent problem that could equally well do without socio-econo-political diversions. Because, if a successful vaccine–something external to either aspect of the discussion–arrives before the first–more important–conversation is well underway then it will be abandoned (or abandonded) and next time round will see the same shambles of short term medical confusion trumping at least somewhat considered socio-econo-political action all over again.

May be getting incoherent here, time to break for breakfast…

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Mar 30, 2020 12:38 PM
Reply to  jay

Bit early for current months stats isn’t it?

Though it has been known previously that death rates in hospitals fall when usual planned surgery is cancelled.

Perhaps something to do with that! Hospitals Kill – especially true when that murderius lady Mrs A stalked the wards and theatres!

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Mar 30, 2020 7:33 PM
Reply to  jay

So, fewer deaths (if you are reading and interpreting the figures correctly (which I have no reason to doubt) for a larger population. Interesting.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 11:23 AM
Reply to  bob

I will have a listen, I like what this guy has to say.

bob
bob
Mar 30, 2020 12:01 PM
Reply to  bob

and have a look at this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_for_Epidemic_Preparedness_Innovations

I know it’s Wiki but there’s info here – one board member is the chief scientific advisor to the UK Dept of International Development, Charlotte Watts …. make your own mind up just hoiw much the UK is involved in this scam

Grafter
Grafter
Mar 30, 2020 10:01 AM

“Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jenny Harries revealed that the current lockdown measures could be in place for at least six months.”

Translated…..”I will continue to promote this fear agenda on behalf of HM Government for a very long time. Unfortunately your Prime Minister cannot be here in person to make this important announcement as he is bravely suffering from this deadly Coronavirus. Our thoughts and sympathy go with him in these most stressful of times. You must all understand that our health administrators will be working as normal and will fully support you and your loved ones who are experiencing lockdown and social deprivation from this highly dangerous virus. It is very important that you keep informed on the latest information and developments by watching television or reading newspapers in order to understand just how serious our predicament is. Whatever it takes , no matter how long we shall overcome this viral enemy. Just remember that we are all in this together.”

Sam
Sam
Mar 30, 2020 9:59 AM
non
non
Mar 30, 2020 11:34 AM
Reply to  Sam

Good on The Sun, such a great example of non-biased balanced journalism, and they have been very much at the forefront of delivering solid analysis that counters media hysteria.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Mar 30, 2020 12:40 PM
Reply to  non

LOL . Some here will miss the sarc of that.

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 11:40 AM
Reply to  Sam

Suggestion for a Sun Headline:

WHO Dunnit!

crank
crank
Mar 30, 2020 12:30 PM
Reply to  Sam

Interesting that it is the Telegraph and the Sun who are printing these critiques.
Maybe now that we suddenly find ourselves living in a communist system, dissent moves to the organs of rightwing opinion ?
(My tongue was half in my cheek writing that).

John Pretty
John Pretty
Mar 30, 2020 2:46 PM
Reply to  Sam

That is good to see. The Sun I think still has the highest circulation of any British newspaper and is aimed at the working classes.

Malthus
Malthus
Mar 30, 2020 9:34 AM

8 Billion people. Infinite growth with finite resources. How exactly did people think this story was going to end?

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 10:02 AM
Reply to  Malthus

Good morning Reverend,

haven’t you been saying that since one Billion, two Billion, three Billion?

George Mc
George Mc
Mar 30, 2020 2:50 PM
Reply to  clickkid

But it’s true! I threw a lettuce at a starving child the other day – and he instantly sprouted into ten!

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 10:18 AM
Reply to  Malthus

I think the clue is in your name?
The meme that there are “too many of us”.
Too many crammed into cities, that’s all…There is lots of space for living and growing.

TFS
TFS
Mar 30, 2020 12:03 PM
Reply to  Malthus

I presume you are excluding water and food in your list of finite resources?

Off those, we have plenty.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Mar 30, 2020 12:48 PM
Reply to  Malthus

Please adhere to your belief and take a running jump – for the sake of humanity man – do it!

——-
In which note the Darwin prize must surely go to 3 members of a US evangelical church who were reportedly carried off by the virus as they carried on assembling – a surviving member said something like God didn’t protect them!

Lol. Old, obese, diabetic, asthmatic… i don’t know what they had … but god bothering idiots deserve what they get … it’s Gods Will!

…….

Anyway Malthus stfu and go spend a few hours listening to the late Prof Hans Rosling at the Gapminder site and stop spouting your gormless shite.

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Mar 30, 2020 9:33 AM

Here in Victoria, the State Govt has announced on the spot fines of $1600 for people breaching the 2 person rule, even if its in your own bloody backyard.
Queensland has $1330 on the spot fines, South Australia has $1000 on the spot fines; with marauding police patrols and the army looking to enforce the New Order… this totalitarianism.
Because what else would you call it? And I’m still dumbstruck that so many are not just in total agreement with what’s happening, but some are demanding a total lockdown.
I don’t see any Gilets Jaunes type rebellion breaking out anytime soon in Australia at the present time.
But when the financial system has imploded, when people have no money and no food, and their kids are hungry… well, have a guess what all these draconian measures are being put in place for?
These vile bastards may be complete psychopaths, but they’re not dumb.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 10:20 AM
Reply to  Gezzah Potts

The people who print the money are behind this bollox.
Not dumb but they will find themselves in the lake of fire.

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Mar 30, 2020 12:21 PM
Reply to  jay

The ones at the very top of the hierarchical pyramid. The masters of the universe. And there’s how many billions of us serfs? Where’s your pitchfork Jay…

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 1:28 PM
Reply to  Gezzah Potts

All of the past revolutions and uprisings have got us exactly where we are now.
Evil has authority for now because that is what we deserve, By God.

milosevic
milosevic
Mar 30, 2020 10:55 AM
Reply to  Gezzah Potts

this totalitarianism. Because what else would you call it?

I’d call it “fascism”, but even that seems inadequate, because Hitler and Mussolini never tried anything remotely comparable.

some are demanding a total lockdown.

what would be more “total” than what you’ve already got? are they going to monitor people’s compliance through the telescreens???

(note the now open admission in various countries that people’s movements are being monitored through their cellphones. is it now illegal to not carry one???)

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 11:10 AM
Reply to  milosevic

A lot of the legislation has been with us for a long time…
The Enviromental Protection Act states that “any and all actions are permissible in protecting the enviroment”…This seems to suggest, that decapitation is permissible for such heinous crimes as dropping a crisp poke. So, there may not have been any need for any more cronocrap laws anyway. Just define such actions as visting your dying gran as endangering the enviroment.
This is an excuse to throw their weight about, see how far we can be pushed, demoralise us all etc. Cause people to loose confidence in the edifaces of society, create revolution so that they can offer the solution. Bozo Stalin and a bullet. The stock exchanges are also harvested with this scam. What’s not to like?
All those little Satanists and cabbalists in the know will be creaming themselves at what they have caused. They will be rolling about in their lodges, at least those who are not the low level minions.

BigB
BigB
Mar 30, 2020 11:16 AM
Reply to  milosevic

The government probably thinks I am dead then. I put my phone down weeks ago and I don’t think it has moved since. 😀

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Mar 30, 2020 7:43 PM
Reply to  BigB

You will probably be fined for dying without permission.

JohnB
JohnB
Mar 31, 2020 11:20 AM
Reply to  BigB

They’ll add you to the covid statistics …

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Mar 30, 2020 12:17 PM
Reply to  milosevic

Okay, you’re right – it is fascism, and yeah, I’ve also seen the stories about some countries monitoring you thru your cellphone, Canada and Israel being 2 examples.
I say that as I type on my smartphone btw. My only means of communication with the outside world, now I’m effectively on lockdown – except to go to the supermarket for supplies.
Must hunt out my copy of Brave New World… somewhere in my little flat.

John Pretty
John Pretty
Mar 30, 2020 2:53 PM
Reply to  Gezzah Potts

“I don’t see any Gilets Jaunes type rebellion breaking out anytime soon in Australia at the present time.”

it may only be a matter of time Gezzah. If people start to lose their fear in sufficient numbers (which surely they must at some point) and these idiot politicians are still trying to control everybody there could be pandemonium.

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Mar 30, 2020 10:01 PM
Reply to  John Pretty

Thanks John. You’re right about the fear thing, especially now with large numbers of police and the army on the streets (only for a virus??)
So many comments here at OffG now it’s hard to keep track, but in last 2 weeks in Melbourne, only met 2 people who called this out for what it is – most people seem to be passively going along with, and supporting what is taking place (from my observations) but you’re right, things will change at some point, especially when people get really desperate. Cheers…

Malthus
Malthus
Mar 30, 2020 9:32 AM

Okay they have destroyed the world economy, covid19 is a joke. A couple of old folks have died who would have died anyway and yet the BS keeps escalating. Sounds to me like the real virus is en route. Nothing else makes sense. When you start hearing the word “mutated” then you will know. Until then it’s a crock.

milosevic
milosevic
Mar 30, 2020 10:56 AM
Reply to  Malthus

— the real virus is called “fascism”.

crank
crank
Mar 30, 2020 1:06 PM
Reply to  milosevic

“fascism” – perhaps that is why so many of the outspoken doctors have been German – they realise better than most how fragile is democracy.

JohnB
JohnB
Mar 31, 2020 11:22 AM
Reply to  milosevic

V good milosevic.

I think this phrase deserves a mass super-spreading.

Jane
Jane
Mar 30, 2020 8:19 AM

Yesterday MoA provided a link to the “ten more experts” article on Off Guardian, saying “I agree that it is wrong to panic. But some of those ‘experts’ are still playing this down as a ‘flu’. Over the last 10 years the city of Bergamo had between 160 and 220 dead per month, including those who died from a flu. This month it had more than 880 dead.” I commented as follows :
An excellent resource for the coronavirus panic is https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/#latest compiled by Swiss Propaganda Research. “According to the latest data published by the Italian Ministry of Health, overall mortality is now significantly higher in all age groups over 65 years of age, after having been below average due to the mild winter. Until March 14, overall mortality was still below the flu season of 2016/2017, but may have already exceeded it in the meantime. Most of this excess mortality currently comes from northern Italy. However, the exact role of Covid19, compared to other factors such as panic, healthcare collapse and the lockdown itself, is not yet clear.” These points were also made by Dr John Ionnadis in a recent interview. It should be mentioned that the statistics for deaths from flu and pneumonia are usually lumped together. So for example, the US had 80,463 deaths from “flu and pneumonia” in 2017; the UK 32,120. Pneumonia does a lot of killing, even in a year that doesn’t put the whole world on lockdown. https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/united-kingdom-influenza-pneumonia

Mine seems to be the only comment along these lines. The others are very much to the effect that we need more lockdowns.

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 8:46 AM
Reply to  Jane

The analysis of MoA is overrated,

Early on in this affair there was some discussion as to whether or not a bio-weapon had been used against China. MoA (b) commented that that couldn’t possibly be the case because very few people were dying compared to the size of China’s population.

MoA for some reason couldn’t get his head around the fact that one possible reason for the use of a bio-weapon could be simply to inflict as much economic damage on an opponent as possible, rather than killing the greatest number of people.

Now I am not saying that is was a bio-weapon or not, but an analyst with so little insight into the logic of power and the machiavellian imagination has something seriously lacking, although I suppose it does speak for him as a human being that he cannot adequately put himself in the shoes of the powerful.

Virus Guy
Virus Guy
Mar 30, 2020 9:02 AM
Reply to  clickkid

This is poor logic also. The damage to the Chinese economy was caused by the response to the virus, whether needful or not, and not by the virus itself. The real question is – why did China seed a panic and a major shutdown for a virus that is, according to official pronouncement, either symptomless or causes a low grade flu in at least 80% of those infected, causes moderate flulike and respiratory symptoms in another 15% and is severe in rather less than 5% of those infected?

The idea this was a response to a bio weapon is absurd. It’s a mild flu by another name. And if China had responded proportionately there would have been no crisis. You are looking in the wrong direction and at the wrong question.

Why are world governments promoting fear of this unexceptional pathogen? This is the one question that matters, being distracted by the numerous attempts to inflate fatalities or mask the real low numbers with anecdote, or foolish speculation about a bio weapon is to be guilty of wasting your time.

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 9:48 AM
Reply to  Virus Guy

“This is poor logic also. The damage to the Chinese economy was caused by the response to the virus, whether needful or not, and not by the virus itself.”

That is true – about the response, and one may argue whether that response was overdone or not. But that fact does not a priori exclude the possibility of it being a bio-weapon.

The point is that MoA dismissed the idea as a matter of principle because so few people were dying. For him a bio-weapon only comes into question if it is designed to kill the largest number of people.

It is clear to me that a bio-weapon may also be designed to cause economic damage. There is also under cetain circumstances a great deal of propaganda advantage to be reaped from an enemy’s Problems, as we have seen with the portrayal of China in the western media over the last couple of months.

Consider in the area of conventional weapons cluster bombs for example. The value to an attacker of cluster bombs lies precisely in the fact that enemy combatants are not killed but rather badly injured and thus bind enemy resources that could be employed elsewhere.

Whether or not the Chinese response was justified or not is not my point, rather that MoA dismissed the possibility of a bio-weapon out of hand because so few people were dying. This is why I consider him a poor analyst.

Again, just so you don’t misunderstand, I am not saying that it was /is a bio-weapon.

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 9:53 AM
Reply to  clickkid

Just to add,

the point of a weapon in the political and geopolitical arena is not to kill your enemy necessarily but to bend him to your will, and thus extract concessions or resources that you would not otherwise have been able to get.

The chess master Tartakower put it well:

“A threat is more powerful than its execution”

SteveEss
SteveEss
Mar 30, 2020 12:56 PM
Reply to  clickkid

You took the words right out of my mouth…
Why kill off much of that which you will need going forward, i.e. able bodies and minds for repair and work…? Seems to me the perfect ‘new world order weapon’ would take out the useless’ and, thru fear and confusion, tame the rest…

Not that I think THAT is what has happened… Just expounding on that which has already been said.

JohnB
JohnB
Mar 30, 2020 9:59 AM
Reply to  clickkid

Similar to militaries preferring to injure enemy personnel, rather than kill them, as it requires a lot more resources to look after the wounded.

George Mc
George Mc
Mar 30, 2020 10:12 AM
Reply to  clickkid

If the coronavirus was a bioweapon unleashed on China for economic damage – presumably by the US – then does that mean it has now become a Frankenstein monster in coming back to the West?

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 10:22 AM
Reply to  George Mc

Of course everybody just seems to assume that the ‘Covid-19 phenomenon’ in the West must be the same as the ‘phenomenon’ in China and Iran.

In my opinion, that emains open to question.

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 10:22 AM
Reply to  clickkid

‘remains’ – Sorry!

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 10:23 AM
Reply to  Virus Guy

A tory bioweapon to selectively remove “bedblockers” now that (nominally) there is no Liverpool Care Pathway.

Jane
Jane
Mar 30, 2020 9:54 AM
Reply to  clickkid

MoA is excellent on geopolitical subjects such as Syria. However, he takes a very conventional view of human health. A few months ago, before all this coronavirus business started, he provided a link, in his “open thread” weekend reading, to an article by a medical professor denouncing anti-vaxxers. I have read the arguments of so-called “anti-vaxxers” and found them very convincing. They are never given an airing on the mainstream media obviously because other people might find them convincing too. I felt disappointed that an alternative site like MoA should be recommending the sort of article we could read in the Guardian. So his position on the coronavirus is not surprising.

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 11:44 AM
Reply to  Jane

“MoA is excellent on geopolitical subjects such as Syria”

…but if the US deployed a bio-weapon in Syria to ravage crops, would he be open to that possibility?

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 9:36 AM
Reply to  Jane

Indeed. All sanity has gone. It will run out of steam, but for now people are happy to accept what Boris is telling as they have bribed by a ‘free holiday’.
The Italian Government Health ministry was advising that the published figures where in danger of exaggerating the incidence of CV19, MASSIVELY.
If there is a pandemic, it is not reflected in the incidence of deaths, this year in the UK to date the figure is actually DOWN by around 2000.

I have lost the link to the article on the Italian deaths, maybe someone could post it. Cheers!

JudyJ
JudyJ
Mar 30, 2020 11:39 AM
Reply to  jay

If there is a pandemic, it is not reflected in the incidence of deaths…

Jay,

The use of the term ‘pandemic’ has been steeped in controversy over the years as its ‘definition’ has been ‘fluid’ to suit circumstances. The most recent WHO interpretation of the term dating back a few years only refers to ‘a disease which spreads worldwide’; it doesn’t even set a value for a threshold of deaths beyond which a pandemic should be declared.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/what-is-a-pandemic-coronavirus-covid-19

One of the experts who has spoken out against the Covid-19 control measures said that he had seen 20 or 30 similar pandemics in his career and none had received the same reaction as this one. He was accused by some people of gross exaggeration but in fact he was undoubtedly accurate because any global flu or other viral outbreak would be a pandemic according to the current definition.

The article linked below is very interesting in this respect. It notes that in February 2020 the WHO was reluctant to call the Covid-19 outbreak a ‘pandemic’ for fear it would engender a state of panic. It appears that they must have been since ‘persuaded’ to declare it a ‘pandemic’ and we all know what the result of that has been…just as the WHO feared My impression is that somewhere along the line someone has been very eager to spread the word that this is a ‘pandemic’ precisely for emotive reasons. I would put any money on it that the WHO has been pressurised into acting against their better judgement.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/11/21156325/coronavirus-pandemic-who-declares-covid-19-outbreak-global-h1n1

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Mar 30, 2020 7:51 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Interesting of course that the word “pandemic” contains 3/5ths of the word “panic”.

JohnB
JohnB
Mar 31, 2020 11:28 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

Med panic ! 🙂

(Contains 100% of the word ‘panic’, but we know what you meant. 🙂 ).

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Mar 30, 2020 7:11 AM

When Boris Johnson and Tom Hanks say they test positive for Coronavirus, please remember that “four other strains of coronavirus are actually very common and usually only cause mild symptoms (like the common cold)”.
In other words, they are not saying they have Covid-19… THEY HAVE A COLD.
Any springtime cold, and probably hay fever, is being co-opted to escalate the panic.
“We’re in a LIVE EXERCISE here.” — Mike Pompeo
In case you missed it: https://youtu.be/cKatRD69WUo
Full screen version – watch Coronavirus task force member Dr. Deborah Birx flinch and cover her right arm.

Virus Guy
Virus Guy
Mar 30, 2020 9:18 AM
Reply to  Moneycircus

There are in fact many CoV known and almost certainly many more as yet unidentified. Of these some will be endemic in populations, possibly globally. It is highly likely if the nCoV identified as the pathogen for covid19 is actual and not merely an artefact, it is endemic and that humanity already has widespread immunity. To this extent the pandemic attributed to it is fake.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Mar 30, 2020 11:51 AM
Reply to  Virus Guy

“It is highly likely if the nCoV identified as the pathogen for covid19 is actual and not merely an artefact, it is endemic and that humanity already has widespread immunity. To this extent the pandemic attributed to it is fake.”

would be fake.

Subjunctive.

JohnB
JohnB
Mar 30, 2020 10:02 AM
Reply to  Moneycircus

Is there any significance in her covering her arm ?

Vivian J
Vivian J
Mar 30, 2020 11:59 AM
Reply to  JohnB

In this case probably just body language showing awkwardness when he blurted out the bit about it being an exercise (although signals such as the ‘hidden hand’ are certainly widely used by people in these networks and secret societies).

where are we?
where are we?
Mar 30, 2020 5:51 AM

One thing thing we learnt from decades of economic liberalisation and social chaos:

Health of ordinary people never mattered before. Authorities are never serious about pollution controls that (among other dreadful health issues) directly impact people’s respiratory system. Also, they have DELIBERATELY IGNORED safety in food production and food additives which create long term debilitating effects on the human body.

But now, in an instant, people’s health has become paramount and priority NUMBER ONE and they are enlisting the army to deal with it!

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
Mar 30, 2020 8:32 AM
Reply to  where are we?

Yes, but that is because there is money to be made right now. I bet you kit test makers can charge a healthy margin as Govts will pay whatever to get them quick. Vaccine companies wanting mandatory multiple vaccination of everyone sense billions in profits. The NHS senses it can screw another £50bn out of the government, whether it will actually make a difference or not.

What is actually going on here is one section of society is still working full time whilst telling everyone else to face financial armageddon.=

That is the great taboo and the NHS workers are right at its forefront.

None of them are paying 50% of their salary in solidarity payments to the millions they have condemned to financial purgatory.

Cicatriz
Cicatriz
Mar 30, 2020 9:12 AM
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

Indeed I’d rather those stupid hand claps were for those made unemployed to continue this charade.

Shardlake
Shardlake
Mar 30, 2020 11:37 AM
Reply to  Cicatriz

The hand-clapping spectacle has to be the most crass event the country has ever witnessed. Expect it to become a regular weekly event led by politicians espousing platitudes to the masses who will lap it up, even to the degree that there will be restrictions on public clapping and only those who can balance a ball on the end of their nose will be permitted to take part.

Vivian J
Vivian J
Mar 30, 2020 12:08 PM
Reply to  Shardlake

These manipulators know exactly which buttons to press when it comes to controlling their various societies. The Brits have been inculcated with a love of the NHS (and no doubt it’s staff do indeed work hard). Combine that with the tsunami of fear/guilt propaganda we are facing.

JudyJ
JudyJ
Mar 30, 2020 2:19 PM
Reply to  Vivian J

You’re right, ‘Viv’, but I would suggest a slight correction to what you say:

(and no doubt most of its staff do indeed work hard)

Sorry to be petty but I have a tendency towards cynicism the more I am expected to regard all NHS practitioners as angels of mercy and competent beyond question. Call it life experience. 😀

Vivian J
Vivian J
Mar 30, 2020 2:53 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Yes Judy, I fully agree with that correction.

milosevic
milosevic
Mar 30, 2020 11:17 AM
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

yah, I don’t see many of the Health Care Heros pointing out that the current global apocalypse involves a small fraction of average yearly flu deaths, although it’s hard to imagine that they’re unaware of this.

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 11:34 AM
Reply to  milosevic

It’s not often you get to be hero – lap it up while you can.

That – plus hysteria.

fred
fred
Mar 30, 2020 2:36 AM

Joe Rogan interviewed Michael Osterholm about the coronavirus.
Osterholm has served on the Task Force on Biological Weapons. He is a frequent consultant to the World Health Organization, the NIH, the Food and Drug Administration, the Department of Defense, and the CDC. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Osterholm)

I have not and will not watch the interview. I can already guess where it’s going.
Somebody should send him the list of experts criticizing the coronavirus panic published here to be interviewed.
Sheeple being fooled by the mainstream media is one thing. Shilling for psychopaths… sorry but I have no respect for such people.

To be fair Rogan is an idiot, so maybe I should not be so harsh. (An idiot with a good memory, this makes him seem less stupid than he really is. He can recall all sorts of factoids about all sorts of things, but when it comes to drawing conclusions or seeing the bigger picture, count him out.)

milosevic
milosevic
Mar 30, 2020 11:20 AM
Reply to  fred

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 2:35 AM

Had an interesting conversation Sunday morning with a guy out walking his dogs.
He said He was still working, as He was in a ‘key position’, as an assembly technician making gas monitoring systems as used in hospitals: ventilators and such.
He said since the ‘crisis’ none of these (you would think much needed products) have left the factory

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Mar 30, 2020 7:55 PM
Reply to  jay

Did he know why not?

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 2:18 AM

paul
paul
Mar 30, 2020 2:00 AM

Blackrock under Larry Fink are the largest money managers in the world. If you’ve got a pie, they’ve got a finger to put in it. Its entire corporate board is Jewish. They have self selected to take control of the tens of trillions that have not yet been created.
They will run the Special Purpose Vehicles using unimaginable amounts of public money to buy worthless mortgage backed securities, bundled car and student loans, and bonds.
Cash For Trash.
Cash for the whole stinking rubbish dump.

paul
paul
Mar 30, 2020 2:05 AM
Reply to  paul

Blackrock owns and controls virtually everything in the world. It is among the biggest donors to Trump and Pence. It is bigger than JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank combined. It is a major shareholder in all three. It is the biggest shareholder in Deutsche Bank. This is the syatem of international banking cartel cross ownership that rules the world.

paul
paul
Mar 30, 2020 2:15 AM
Reply to  paul

Trump himself will be in line for a mega payout for his closed hotels. So will Kushner, though Schumer will pretend otherwise. Trump and Kushner will use the depreciation dodge again to avoid any tax.
Trump is known to owe Deutsche Bank at least $350 million.
Kushner took out a $285 million loan from them.
Some people were surprised when Deutsche Bank, a “German” bank, was bailed out with $354 billion of US taxpayer money in 2008.
When you start connecting all the dots, these things aren’t strange at all.

paul
paul
Mar 30, 2020 2:22 AM
Reply to  paul

The UK government has contracted with Dyson to produce 10,000 ventilators.
The problem is, Dyson doesn’t produce anything in the UK.
It moved its production from Wiltshire to Malaysia.
Maybe Malaysia will just requisition its production if they need it.
Most US medical supplies come from Chinese factories.
Maybe they won’t get what they need if China wants it, or if wide boys from Israel buy everything up and hoard it.

RobG
RobG
Mar 30, 2020 1:55 AM

The propaganda is quite breathtaking…

Pressure to provide equipment grows after two UK doctors die

Here’s the agenda for those who live in the real world: in about two weeks time you are going to have the hard realisation that the real world has collapsed, because the real world is run by complete psychopaths, and you enable them.

Everything will be stolen from you (which they’ve been doing for decades now). Most people will be left destitute and in a state of serfdom. The psychos will also probably launch us into another world war (which they’ve been building up to for a long time now).

I could go on with this, but I’ve probably depressed you enough already.

Yours

A Sane Human Being

Rhisiart Gwilym
Rhisiart Gwilym
Mar 30, 2020 9:53 AM
Reply to  RobG

You seem very confident of your own extraordinarily-penetrating insight and prophetic ability B. Keep a vigilant watch for banana skins. 🙂

Rhisiart Gwilym
Rhisiart Gwilym
Mar 30, 2020 9:55 AM

Sorry, that B should read G (see how easy it is to balls-up…?) 🙂 🙂

JudyJ
JudyJ
Mar 30, 2020 2:22 PM

Or even R?? 😀

paul
paul
Mar 30, 2020 1:49 AM

This site is knackered again.
It’s completely fucked.

Admin2
Admin
Admin2
Mar 30, 2020 3:18 AM
Reply to  paul

Yeah, if this was the Enterprise, we’d definitely be down to impulse power. We have been having huge server overloads. Our techs are on it, but increased traffic and repeated dDOS-style attacks have been a real challenge. Fingers crossed, it will improve soon. Please make copies of your comments before you hit ‘post’. And try to reblog our material as much as possible. Thanks. A2

George Mc
George Mc
Mar 30, 2020 10:13 AM
Reply to  Admin2

Have you not considered changing your dylithium crystals?

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 30, 2020 11:37 AM
Reply to  George Mc

Actually, that would make a good Star Trek Episode.

The crew of the Enterprise land on a planet where everybody is convinced that a Virus is raging, but it’s all hysteria.

George Mc
George Mc
Mar 30, 2020 2:52 PM
Reply to  clickkid

Didn’t they do one about a war that wasn’t really happening?

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Mar 30, 2020 11:56 AM
Reply to  Admin2

“Please make copies of your comments before you hit ‘post’.”

I just let them bite the bucket. Great improvement all round.

jay
jay
Mar 30, 2020 1:37 AM

There have been 128,271 deaths in England and Wales so far in 2020, compared with an average for the same time of year for the past five years of 133,165…

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Mar 30, 2020 8:00 PM
Reply to  jay

So 4894 people have to die by Tuesday midnight in order to make deaths this quarter as high as the average for the last 5 years.

(So I’m definitely staying at home tomorrow…).

(Yes, I know it doesn’t really work like that).

fred
fred
Mar 30, 2020 1:30 AM

March 29, 2020 update https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/
The latest data from the German Robert Koch Institute show that the increase in test-positive persons is proportional to the increase in the number of tests, i.e. in percentage terms it remains roughly the same. This may indicate that the increase in the number of cases is mainly due to an increase in the number of tests, and not due to an ongoing epidemic.
The Milan microbiologist Maria Rita Gismondo calls on the Italian government to stop communicating the daily number of „corona positives“ as these figures are „fake“ and put the population in unnecessary panic. The number of test-positives depends very much on the type and number of tests and says nothing about the state of health.

fred
fred
Mar 30, 2020 1:33 AM
Reply to  fred

Somebody also pls give this advice to rt.com, very disappointed in the way they are covering this.
(And of course also to the rest of the msm, but that is a lost cause at this point.)

Willem
Willem
Mar 30, 2020 7:39 AM
Reply to  fred

RT is also a lost cause. I remember how they supported all those synthethic events in Europe as if they were all committed by refugees from Syria.

Russia only cares about truth when it is in their own interest to care about truth. In this case, it is no problem for Russia if Europe’s economy crashes due to poor decisions.

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
Mar 30, 2020 8:34 AM
Reply to  Willem

Every country is the same Willem. You think the BBC told the truth about 9/11, David Kelly, WMD, Syria, Libya, Yemen? Not to mention being a centre for revealing gambling scams in sport.

Nothing unique about Russia, it is everywhere.

Willem
Willem
Mar 30, 2020 9:10 AM
Reply to  Rhys Jaggar

We are in agreement Rhys. It is not unique to Russia, it is everywhere

SteveEss
SteveEss
Mar 30, 2020 12:48 AM

It’s Sunday night here in the US, the perfect timing for this message that just popped up in my mailbox:

LET’S GO BACK TO WORK
3/29/20
https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/

Cicatriz
Cicatriz
Mar 30, 2020 1:01 AM
Reply to  SteveEss

Was thinking of linking to that myself.

Also, a good essay on the saker: http://thesaker.is/covid-an-infectious-disease-and-a-phantom-pandemic/

Sgt Oddball
Sgt Oddball
Mar 30, 2020 1:18 AM
Reply to  Cicatriz

saker’s one of the few alt-media still keeping his head screwed on… – zerohedge? – had it, *lost* it…

*smh*

fred
fred
Mar 30, 2020 1:35 AM
Reply to  Sgt Oddball

Zerohedge is controlled opposition, at best.
It’s really a sad fact of the human condition that lies sell so much better than truth.

SteveEss
SteveEss
Mar 30, 2020 1:23 AM
Reply to  Cicatriz

Awesome link, Cic…! Thank you…
I especially appreciated being ‘invited’ behind the curtain to see and learn about an Iranian home, their customs, treatment and cures…

It’s a must-read, folks, written with conviction and cautious concern…

Cicatriz
Cicatriz
Mar 30, 2020 1:38 AM
Reply to  SteveEss

The comments are great, too.

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Mar 30, 2020 9:40 AM
Reply to  SteveEss

Just discovered this site earlier today Steve before I saw your comment… Excellent! More sites out there questioning this blatant fascism being rammed down our throats.

bob
bob
Mar 29, 2020 11:54 PM

this little number has an edge to it

We wash our hands … of the ‘virus’

They wash there hands … of us

RobG
RobG
Mar 29, 2020 11:18 PM

The ‘Coronavirus Bill’ was rushed through parliament this week…

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/19/the-guardian-view-on-the-coronavirus-bill-strengthen-the-sunset-clause

This was shortly before a ‘government’ elected on very dogy terms suspended all elections, dissolved parliament and effectively introduced martial law.

I’m not sure what else I can say.

MASTER OF UNIVE
MASTER OF UNIVE
Mar 30, 2020 1:27 AM
Reply to  RobG

Will you be selling boat tickets on the Titanic II amidst the nCorona virus pandemic, Boob-G?

MOU

Virus Guy
Virus Guy
Mar 30, 2020 9:21 AM

I am at a loss what you think you are contributing

milosevic
milosevic
Mar 30, 2020 11:36 AM
Reply to  Virus Guy

— government disinfo troll, disregard.

fred
fred
Mar 29, 2020 11:08 PM

The whole world has now turned into a germophobe and the trend to disinfect everything is actually bad for our natural resistance in the long run.

There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in clean homes get sick more often than kids who grow up in more dirty homes.

https://www.webmd.com/parenting/features/kids-and-dirt-germs#1
A mounting body of research suggests that exposing infants to germs may offer them greater protection from illnesses such as allergies and asthma later on in life.
When we overly sanitize infants’ environments to protect them from illness, we may instead be depriving them the opportunity to build a strong immune system.

Your Environment Is Cleaner. Your Immune System Has Never Been So Unprepared. (NY Times)

Loverat
Loverat
Mar 30, 2020 12:05 AM
Reply to  fred

Fred

I think there is something in what say. In my case I put my relative good health down to an exceptional sports education at school and bike rides with friends to Brighton from London at 15, with a moderate supply of cider and cigarettes for the stops on the way. Activity at a young age, including good nutrition I believe sets you up for life.

So theres alot also to be said for the outdoors and activity, now limited by our government. As for germs, you have a point but one thing I draw the line at is touching the door handle to the toilet in the local Weatherspoons. That experience wont be missed.

DunGroanin
DunGroanin
Mar 30, 2020 12:22 AM
Reply to  Loverat

Hope you didn’t catch brexit fever from them 😉

Loverat
Loverat
Mar 30, 2020 2:33 AM
Reply to  DunGroanin

I remember the weatherpoons magazine and wading through 10 pages of nonsense from Tim Martin. What a dump but was an interesting case study of the utterly brainless and bizarre. Something which has manifested more widely in recent days.

Rhisiart Gwilym
Rhisiart Gwilym
Mar 30, 2020 10:10 AM
Reply to  Loverat

I can ditto that LR: In my case it was rock-climbing right through teens, together with many miles of walking out to the climbing grounds from home, carrying packs. Also basic-bike expeditions from Yorkshire to Eryri, Gwynedd, Cymru Gogledd, and back again, after days bivoucking in the mountains. Strong as young oxen and fit as fiddles, we were. Still doing me good now, decades later. That and regular daily prophylactic doses of home-grown organic cannabis oil, and VitaminC, to protect the cardio-vascular system and in the case of the C, to stave off **all** cold/flu/bronchitis attempted-attacks (**always** seen off overnight) for over 20 years now. I regard being in the ‘most at-risk age-group’ with a certain Tao-ish serenity… 🙂

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Mar 30, 2020 8:17 PM

Da iawn Rhisiart bach. And as I’m sure you know, vitamin C has all sorts of other benefits, as well as those you’ve mentioned.

I was never quite as active as you, but while I cycled to work daily in all weathers, I very rarely had colds and if I did, they weren’t severe. I’m not aware of ever actually having “flu” (and people tell me: if you’ve got the flu, you bloody well know it).

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 30, 2020 8:27 PM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

Three-quarters of people with flu have no symptoms

Monday 17 March 2014

https://www.nhs.uk/news/medical-practice/three-quarters-of-people-with-flu-have-no-symptoms/

Does Influenza Transmission Occur from Asymptomatic Infection or Prior to Symptom Onset?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2646474/

Sgt Oddball
Sgt Oddball
Mar 30, 2020 1:22 AM
Reply to  fred

“When we overly sanitize infants’ environments to protect them from illness, we may instead be depriving them the opportunity to build a strong immune system.”

… – *LOTS* of new big-pharma customers, tho’… – think of the poor, starving execs and shareholders – have you *NO* heart, dammit?!…

😉

RobG
RobG
Mar 29, 2020 10:46 PM

Trump is going to be the last President of the USA, which is why they installed this clown (who’s no different from the previous clown, Obama).

Also see the total clowns in the UK, France, Australia, etc.

We are now into effectively endless lock down.

The police state is here.

The likes of GG have been a total disgrace this evening.

The Resistance here in France remains very strong.

Berlin Beerman
Berlin Beerman
Mar 30, 2020 12:48 AM
Reply to  RobG

I am wondering how long the French will put up with this and Mr. Macron?

With Italy, well Italy, what can we say about it and the UK, malnourishment and poor education I would presume, but France ?

When are we going to see the first EU country revolt and take to revolution? You really have nothing left to lose, France – and its in your DNA after all.

RobG
RobG
Mar 30, 2020 2:17 AM
Reply to  Berlin Beerman

France is set to explode, particularly after the recent medical corruption/scandal that Macron & Co are now trying to backpeddle out of.

You really couldn’t make this stuff up.

Berlin Beerman
Berlin Beerman
Mar 30, 2020 3:49 PM
Reply to  RobG

Every government worth its weight in corruption is taking advantage of this flu. Its misdirection at its finest. Use it as a get out of jail free card – and they are, well trying to at least.

The minions will all listen to what they are being fed until a few wake from their debilitating hypnosis and start to think for themselves , ask questions and form the opinion that all this has been a false trait.

No you really could not make all this up and hopefully calm and cool heads will come out of the woodwork with a proper change that the world deserves.

Its time that intelligence stopped being handcuffed by corrupt, money grubbing morons and their infatuated 9 to 5 fans of enslavement.

Willem
Willem
Mar 30, 2020 7:50 AM
Reply to  RobG

My gut feeling is that we straightly head to a one world ruling party with unelected (technocratic) officials, and a new money system (all cashless). That would make the world more predictable for ‘them’, and in order to save capitalism you need a predictable world as in ‘where the money is flowing’. Whether this good or bad depends on what the technocrats have for us in store.

To be perfectly honest, that it is going bring down the facade of democracy (with clown like Trump, Timmermans, Juncker) is something I look forward to. The question is only: will the cure better the disease or will it worsen the disease?

Caveat: maybe I shouldn’t think with my gut..

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Mar 30, 2020 9:47 AM
Reply to  Willem

Saw that at Truthstream Media (12 Monkeys video) about digital money, and the obvious control ramifications for that. Imagine being a dissident who expresses disagreement with the status quo, or you refuse to take your mandatory vaccine shot.
All of a sudden… no access to money. At all. Scary as hell.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Mar 30, 2020 8:18 PM
Reply to  Willem

Gordon Brown seemed to let the cat out of the bag on that one recently.

Reading
Reading
Mar 29, 2020 10:22 PM

Confirmed cases are seen across all age groups in Australia, 30/03/2020. From health.gov.au
comment image?itok=OVdrA5Cu

People the most affected are in the 20-29 age group.