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WATCH: Perspectives on the Pandemic #4 Dr Ioannidis updates the results of his studies, as well as discussing testing methods and Sweden’s approach to the pandemic

In this long-awaited follow-up to his interview in late March, Dr. John Ioannidis discusses the results of three preliminary studies, (including his latest, which shows a drastically reduced infection fatality rate); the worrisome effects of the lockdown; the Swedish approach; the Italian data; the ups and downs of testing; the feasibility of “contact tracing”, and much more.

The Interviewer: John Kirby is the director of FOUR DIED TRYING, a feature documentary and series on the major assassinations of the 1960’s and their calamitous impact on the country. To join the struggle for justice for Dr. King, Malcolm X, and John and Robert Kennedy.

The Interviewee: Dr Ioannidis is a professor of medicine and professor of epidemiology and population health, as well as professor by courtesy of biomedical data science at Stanford University School of Medicine, professor by courtesy of statistics at Stanford University School of Humanities and Sciences, and co-director of the Meta-Research Innovation Center at Stanford (METRICS) at Stanford University.

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shitstorm
shitstorm
Apr 25, 2020 6:44 AM

How many times have I said that you deliberately mislead people. Like the infamous Pied Piper you lead rats to their grave. You must be proud of yourselves. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/stephaniemlee/stanford-coronavirus-study-bhattacharya-email?__twitter_impression=true

SSA
SSA
Apr 22, 2020 10:47 PM

The good doctor appears terrified, unable to speak truth to power. He adroitly side-stepped the question about Gates and his cohort of cronies. Contrast this timid presentation with Dr Rashid Buttar’s amazing interview:

S. White
S. White
Apr 22, 2020 9:12 PM

Assuming acceptance of germ theory as valid. I wonder what he would say about the claims now that antibodies don’t mean you are protected (why get a vaccination then?) and that govts now want to ‘track down ‘silent spreaders’? What is a ‘silent spreader’ and how is that different from someone who has recovered and has antibodies? Isn’t a silent spreader simply a healthy person? Why is germ theory inventing these new threats? It seems like a very convenient theory for inventing newer and more invisible alien invaders. How about talking about safety via a healthy immune system and body? How about discussing toxicology and how that affects health and death rates in places which have high air and water and food pollution?

TrueNorth
TrueNorth
Apr 22, 2020 6:42 PM

I think that the COVID-19 prevalence as measured in the Santa Clara study could be an underestimate by a large margin. The commercial test was validated with ELISA, an assay that has been shown to have high false-negative rate in a previous study of another coronavirus (Stanley Perlman’s led study on MERS-Cov2, University of Iowa). I look forward to stringent validation using neutralization titer and immunofluorescence assays of all commercial test kits, so that I can make educated guess of the real percent of population immunity.
As of now, the sky is falling threatens to fall again, as the media plucks the numbers out of larger context to mix their toxic panic concoctions.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Apr 22, 2020 4:29 AM

I’m not saying the following dates & numbers are accurate but they are quoted in the New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html?

They even have them as pretty graphs so that even the hard of hearing can get the picture.

Note also that Sweden too has taken off!

Area PCT. above normal Excess deaths − Reported Covid-19 deaths = Difference
Spain
Mar. 9 – Apr. 5 66% 19,700 − 12,401 = 7,300
England & Wales
Mar. 7 – Apr. 10 33% 16,700 − 10,335 = 6,300
New York City
Mar. 11 – Apr. 18 298% 17,200 − 13,240 = 4,000
France
Mar. 9 – Apr. 5 21% 10,500 − 8,059 = 2,500
Netherlands
Mar. 9 – Apr. 5 33% 4,000 − 2,166 = 1,900
Istanbul
Mar. 9 – Apr. 12 29% 2,100 − 1,006 = 1,100
Jakarta
March 36% 1,000 − 84 = 900
Belgium
Mar. 9 – Apr. 5 25% 2,300 − 1,632 = 700
Switzerland
Mar. 9 – Apr. 5 21% 1,000 − 712 = 300
Sweden
Mar. 9 – Apr. 12 12% 1,100 −

Offlands
Offlands
Apr 22, 2020 1:49 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

Sweden are down according to the article -50

Offlands
Offlands
Apr 22, 2020 1:56 PM
Reply to  Offlands

Apologies, actually they say -50 but the difference lower down is actually 60 extra than historically.

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Apr 22, 2020 5:21 PM
Reply to  Offlands

That just shows the historical year total to date is not the measure – it is the sudden uptick in the current days and weeks.

The FT today has put the number over 40k – I haven’t had much chance to look today.

Busy shopping and delivering to these in isolation and bloody Aldi shut without notice!

TrueNorth
TrueNorth
Apr 22, 2020 3:03 AM

I forget who said that chances are we are living in a simulation, but it surely looks like we are stuck in some careless epidemiologist’s simulation.

How come we don’t have international committees of scientific brains scrutinizing epidemiological models so significant that they could cause global economic catastrophe if implemented?

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 25, 2020 9:10 AM
Reply to  TrueNorth

Who said that we are living in a simulation? Some glitch. He’s a real glitch.

mikael
mikael
Apr 21, 2020 11:21 PM

Some people say, look this or that one died of this uh… corona, well, people do die, after all this years many people have died, of various reasons, some of them honest and true to the day they hit David Jones Locker, from cancer, hartfailure, some double tapped them “selfs” and was recorded as suicide, some alegefly hanged them self ( Swartz ) , witch I dont belive for an second, some even got shoot in an “robbery”, to some glearingly obvious assasinated, Heistings, and so on, people die, but that dont change jack shit, because we are all going to die, the only thing I know is dead certain, is DJ locker, everything else, can be an variable, since we are all born naked, and will leave naked, what you do inbetween is all yours, its called life.

You see, things can change, in the begining it seamed so true, didnt it, easy to come now when their narrative and lies are imploding, then its easy to be an man, isnt it, but to be steadfast, and dont waive when the storm hitts is an different story, and you begins to doubt, I always trust my intingts, and instead of giving in to fear, I whent into education, finding the facts, digg as far into the rabbit hole you can, and read everything until you are certain, but you need to be steadfast, honest with your self and dont doubt your own instingts, when they tell you that you are on the right path, the truth is right infront of you, despite the onslaught in the media and even among friends, and above all, never ever trust the polticians, the MSM, the so called experts, because they have varied, their propaganda have changed, but the methode have stayed the same, and so in this so called epidemic, and this time, I just took my time as others did, and awaited, patience is an virtue, forberance is crusial, and timing is everything and when you are armed with the knowledge you have collected, you will take them down, of course, in this times, our numbers are our only security.

There have been some intresting things that have evolved thru this few months, rightwinged freaks, whom have yapped about totalitarian regimes, communistic regimes, dictatorial regimes, pointed everywhere, and when this came, they morphed into full blown and over the top hysterical creeps whom was even more totalitarian than what I could imagine just some months ago, fascinating isnt it how fast they switched, and now, in the front rows of assliking the Gov to impose even more messurements to control us all and sucks up to the robber barons whom is “lying, stealing and cheeting” us all, and they are dead silent, and is the force of silencing any oposition to the coming political drakonian messurments, of course for the safty of us all, right, totalitairan regimes always pawes the road to hell with good intentions, but the treason comitted by this people whom claims they where for the people is become obvious, never ever trust them again, and never belive anything the fake left manages to drool on their corner of the present asylum.

I will just remind people about the law suit, done by Kennedy and Del Bigtree, and their fight against the vaccine ind. and give credit where its due.
So, we need not to rest, we need to nail it thruoutly onto the wall, truth always stands by it self, always provails, truth is the word of God, never give an peace, be loud and proud.

I couldnt help it, we need some Oxygen, an remix of something that came out in 1976.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9KqM9dG6LU
Take care.

peace

breweriana
breweriana
Apr 21, 2020 11:05 PM

An encounter at the 7-11.
Old guy goes mental, hysterical, at me.
“Keep away. Six feet…”
I explained the ‘virus’ was declassified 20th March.
No difference.
Another customer joins in, saying
“Respect his health.”
I attempt to show the hardcopy of the .gov page of the NHS downgrade of the ‘virus’
Hopeless.
The look of fear and hysteria in his eyes is beyond help.
We are in a nightmare.

IANA
IANA
Apr 21, 2020 11:15 PM
Reply to  breweriana

Yep I had the same experience at the weekend. Went out to the country to get away from everything and on some quiet walks it was pretty sparse with people. A lot of those I did meet though although in the middle of nowhere in the woods would deliberately walk off to avoid having to pass on a path that at times was nearly 10 ft wide or more. I was shocked.

Made me realise that whatever the economic fallout from this the psychological damage is huge and is already done. It has fractured the country…

TrueNorth
TrueNorth
Apr 22, 2020 3:22 AM
Reply to  IANA

Same experience here. It’s very depressing. Even today, most people I encountered on my walks did not greet me and avoided me as if I have a plague.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 22, 2020 3:32 AM
Reply to  IANA

! maybe these people are mad and they were always waiting for an excuse to do what they wanted to do… which is to scream at others and run off to squirrel away in the woods or their burrow.

Adam
Adam
Apr 22, 2020 10:06 AM
Reply to  breweriana

I think we just have to respect peoples right to believe in nonsense. Could you please link to the .gov page please, I can’t find it any more and can’t recall which article it was included in on this site. Cheers 🙂

JudyJ
JudyJ
Apr 22, 2020 11:39 AM
Reply to  Adam

Adam

This is the link you want…it’s been posted on the site in several places but the most recent is in @breweriana’s post (21 April 10.50 p.m.)immediately below.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid

😀

Adam
Adam
Apr 22, 2020 1:31 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Thanks Judy, I just wanted to confirm that despite this statement we went into a lockdown 4 days later. It’s almost as if the authorities will be able to turn round and say ‘we told you so’ should the shit hit the fan on a mass scale. They’ve printed the data and even told us it’s not a huge threat, yet the media hype it and then people demand their ‘protection’.

S. White
S. White
Apr 22, 2020 9:20 PM
Reply to  breweriana

I worked long enough in Infection Control to know that the media and the performers they have on every day are presenting this as a zero sum game — to try to reduce contact of any kind with any ‘germ’ to absolute zero is literally impossible. Perhaps if we were all irradiated we could get the numbers down but we would also not live long. This is a simulation, not even a good one. Eat really healthy clean food, drink filtered water (see Flint), get out of areas with lots of air pollution. But that doesn’t make any money for big pharma. This is why they fund the promotion of everything being due to a vague concept that they can manipulate: a virus. Dr. Andrew Kaufman has done videos discussing exosomes. Might want to watch and learn.

breweriana
breweriana
Apr 21, 2020 10:50 PM

This hysterical nonsense has gone on quite long enough – what is wrong with the media?

The Covid Cult madness has reached a new fever pitch. The regular work of treating patients, even serious cases, seems to have been suspended. The NHS has now stopped using death statistics seen here:

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/critical-care-capacity/

Quote:
“Critical Care Bed Capacity and Urgent Operations Cancelled…Due to the coronavirus illness (COVID-19) and the need to release capacity across the NHS to support the response, we are pausing the collection and publication of these and some of our official statistics. This will apply to the releases listed HERE”
Unquote.

A click on the ‘HERE’ hyperlink in the webpage quoted above, for the “releases listed HERE” turns out to be… 404 error “Not Found. The requested URL was not found on this server.” a dead link.

All the hallmarks of a coverup: if there are no ‘Covid’ patients to count then they simply stop ‘counting’, allegedly because of the overwhelming numbers – yet all the while confessing the disease no longer has High Consequence Infectious Disease (HCID) status (and hasn’t since the 19th March 2020 – see UK goverment announcement below). If there is a need to respond to, it is not covid. The media are treating covid it as if it were an HCID. Why?

This social situation has all the appearances of a cult – the ‘Covid Cult’ from whose clutches there is no escape and reason is treated as heresy. Whenever I try to point out to people that (showing them the .gov website hardcopy as evidence) the ‘virus’ was downgraded to a regular ‘flu by UK government, advised by the NHS and others, I can almost see the shutters coming down behind their eyes. In other instances, it is met with anger and accusation.

Here is the gist of it at:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid

Quote:
“Covid-19 has not been an HCID in the UK since the 19th March 2020, when it was declassified by PHE and the NHS, and also by The Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) who were also of the opinion that COVID-19 should no longer be classified as an HCID.

An HCID is defined as:
an acute infectious disease
typically has a high case-fatality rate
may not have effective prophylaxis or treatment
often difficult to recognise and detect rapidly
ability to spread in the community and within healthcare settings
requires an enhanced individual, population and system response to ensure it is managed effectively, efficiently and safely

They have determined that several features have now changed; in particular, more information is available about mortality rates (low overall)”
Unquote.

jack(jim)
jack(jim)
Apr 21, 2020 9:23 PM

If it is as harmless as you say, then why should people not bounce back into total normality immediately ?

Objective
Objective
Apr 21, 2020 9:48 PM
Reply to  jack(jim)

Economics isn’t your strong point is it.

Reg
Reg
Apr 22, 2020 1:44 AM
Reply to  jack(jim)

Is your other name Louis Proyect?

Jojo
Jojo
Apr 21, 2020 7:59 PM

I am sure that this has probably appeared on OG somewhere but for everyone who missed it, this is an excellent interview, well worth listening to:
=========
Why lockdowns are the wrong policy – Swedish expert Prof. Johan Giesecke
Apr 17, 2020

Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world’s most senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government (he hired Anders Tegnell who is currently directing Swedish strategy), the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO, lays out with typically Swedish bluntness why he thinks:

– UK policy on lockdown and other European countries are not evidence-based
– The correct policy is to protect the old and the frail only
– This will eventually lead to herd immunity as a “by-product”
– The initial UK response, before the “180 degree U-turn”, was better
– The Imperial College paper was “not very good” and he has never seen an unpublished paper have so much policy impact
– The paper was very much too pessimistic
– Any such models are a dubious basis for public policy anyway
– The flattening of the curve is due to the most vulnerable dying first as much as the lockdown
– The results will eventually be similar for all countries
– Covid-19 is a “mild disease” and similar to the flu, and it was the novelty of the disease that scared people.
– The actual fatality rate of Covid-19 is the region of 0.1%
– At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available

Geo
Geo
Apr 21, 2020 8:29 PM
Reply to  Jojo

Interesting, another well-regarded scientist that is on the same wave length as Ioannidis and co.

Objective
Objective
Apr 21, 2020 11:08 PM
Reply to  Jojo

Interesting i posted the same interview earlier in a different article thread and got down voted LOL.

Objective
Objective
Apr 21, 2020 7:18 PM

Last night I suddenly recalled, the uni-bomber manifesto & after many years since I read it I took time to review it again. I don’t condone or advocate his conduct, you don’t have to like the messenger or agree with his message or his politics, but to understand how/what has happened I think it’s worth reading/listening to

Industrial Society & Its Future

Dr. Theodore John Kaczynski



He does have a very profound insight into human nature & how the system is spiraling out of control & remember he wrote this in the early 90s! I have to reiterate I don’t agree with his solutions to the problems we face.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 21, 2020 10:50 PM
Reply to  Objective

Kaczynski’s methods were wrong morally and hit the underlings, not the Bosses. But his Manifesto is like an augury of things to come. Indeed they have been unfolding since at least 1980, and numerous observers knew that they were inevitable, as long as the capitalist ghouls were in charge.

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Apr 23, 2020 5:51 AM

Jesus… this was profound! Just listened to a large chunk of Ted Kaczynski’s work in this clip. Parts of it, I admit I was squirming, and his psychological insights are very deep.
And, yes, I know what he did.

George Mc
George Mc
Apr 21, 2020 7:15 PM

BBC News – Plague Special i.e. the special that is on every day and every hour! Jangling bell! “Bring out your dead!”

Coronavirus: Deaths at 20-year high but peak may be over

Slow pan across the faces we have lost. The gut wrenching tragedy of it!

(We haven’t quite nailed the music needed yet. Barber’s Adagio? Mahler’s Adagietto? Too high brow for the punters? How about Robbie William’s “Angels” at half speed?)

Daniel Spaniel
Daniel Spaniel
Apr 21, 2020 9:11 PM
Reply to  George Mc

This would do:

Daniel Spaniel
Daniel Spaniel
Apr 22, 2020 2:05 AM
Reply to  Daniel Spaniel

For some reason the song I posted has become this Corona housing crisis video.

Matt UK
Matt UK
Apr 23, 2020 8:08 AM
Reply to  George Mc

😂😂👍

Reachable Spike
Reachable Spike
Apr 21, 2020 7:00 PM

I would challenge any doctor or medical scientist to name one infectious disease — or one disease of any type — where the mortality rate isn’t directly proportional to the severity of symptoms, the “life-threateningness”, of the typical or average case. While it could be possible — again, this is a question being asked — it flies in the face of all reason. If this virus packs a weaker punch than the viruses ascribed to the flu then why would it not knock out fewer of its opponents.

From the very beginning, the usual COVID-19 infection was described as a set of symptoms less harsh than the flu. How much less harsh wasn’t, at that time, even appreciated; most infections are apparently asymptomatic! The death rate among younger people, even given the small, very distorted data set, was lower than that of the flu, and among older people higher than that of the flu. That would make sense only to the kind of compartmentalized thinking conditioned by the ever present use of statistics, but in the absence of that it would be an absurdity.

It looks to be more dangerous to men than to women. OK, men are a slightly different animal (but you should look for sociological reasons in addition to physiological reasons.) But older people are the same animal, the same genetics, as younger people, only with, on average, somewhat less resistance due to wear and tear. Naturally the death rate will be higher among the old, but to have it be higher in comparison to another disease than it is for the young in comparison to that another disease is rather like saying the motor in your electric car is capable of generating higher wattage when you’re driving on a surface with less friction. It’s bonkers!

Joerg
Joerg
Apr 21, 2020 6:50 PM

For Austrians until now it has been like a mild ‘flu-season’. See here:
https://www.unzensuriert.at/content/98978-politik-mit-hilfe-seltsamer-statistiken-2015-2017-und-2018-mehr-tote-als-2020
(forget the German text and just look at the spreadsheet) In 2015, 2017 and 2018 there were more deaths in the first 14 weeks (=”Wochen” – we are now in the 17th week) than in 2020.

Also look at this (one week old) Spreadsheet with a comparison of the data of some countries: http://www.eu-infothek.com/corona-infizierte-und-tote-in-relation-zur-bevoelkerung-das-ueberraschende-laender-ranking/
(“Bev” and “Bevölkerung” = “population”; “Tote” = “deaths”)

Arsebiscuits
Arsebiscuits
Apr 21, 2020 6:23 PM

Imagine a REAL virus came along and no amount of preparation will suffice.

No lockdown then I bet.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 21, 2020 6:38 PM
Reply to  Arsebiscuits

Imagine remaking all those 1970s plague movies with … lockdown… they’d be a riveting watch.

slobo
slobo
Apr 21, 2020 6:53 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcbR1J_4ICg

— the artist formerly known as m*l*s*v*c, until that persona was unpersoned

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 21, 2020 6:17 PM

The Daily Telegraph says “Oxford vaccine trial to be tested on people from Thursday”
Dr Ioannidis: “We need to understand if it is the virus or the immune response that is doing the damage. If it is the virus and we are not getting enough of an immune response then we need a vaccine. If the problem is that it is the overreaction of our immune system that leads to the destruction of our lung cells than a vaccine may be a bad idea.
“Previous attempts have not been successful. Some vaccines were developed for coronavirus in animals and they caused more damage than not giving them at all. They led to a hypersensitivity response so that when the animal was exposed to the actual coronavirus they overreacted, including death.”
“A vaccine needs to be very thoroughly vetted and tested. We need solid evidence that it works, that it makes things better, that it will save lives. This cannot be done overnight. I wish we could do it fast but it is unlikely that we will be able to wait for 12, 18 or 24 months for a vaccine while remaining in lockdown.”

Edwige
Edwige
Apr 21, 2020 6:42 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

Digging down into Vaccitech has produced some interesting finds already but more work like this is needed.

ame
ame
Apr 21, 2020 7:07 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus
Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 24, 2020 10:15 AM
Reply to  Moneycircus

Monkeys have gotten too rare and expensive.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 25, 2020 9:17 AM
Reply to  Moneycircus

What an Evil scam it is when safe drugs like hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin and zinc are available, cheap, and already prove highly efficacious in cases treated when the diagnosis is first confirmed. To oppose such a treatment because Trump promoted it tells you just how filthy the Trump Derangement Syndrome scum are. Even worse than Trump.

George
George
Apr 21, 2020 5:51 PM

Can someone explain the excess mortality in New York City? It appears that way more people there are dying than normal in the last few weeks.

Some defenders of the mainstream “super deadly virus” narrative are pointing to high all-cause mortality in NYC. Even if the Covid deaths are over-attributed, there are still much more people dying there than usual. New York is certainly an outlier, and maybe that just happens in a disease outbreak, but I can’t figure out why…

Perhaps other places are ‘balanced’ out by the fact that less people are getting into car crashes or work accidents or outdoor activity injuries, but New York never had much of those issues.

Maybe it has to do with the medical system discouraging regular check-ups and treatment, and people staying away from hospitals on their own.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 21, 2020 5:59 PM
Reply to  George

This is from listening closely to Ioannidis’ interview. I’m not adding any information.
Ioannidis warns that the best opportunity for the virus to kill people is hospitals, where it can infect medical staff and in turn use them as spreaders, particularly in areas of poverty where there are large numbers of unhealthy people arriving at hospital seeking treatment. Italy has not only an aging population but also one of the oldest medical work forces. If you correct for these factors, the fatality rate is close to that of regular flu.
Hospitals are the worst place to try to save people, Ioannidis says. Stringent infection control and hygiene must be maintained in hospitals. Patients who suspect they have mild or moderate Covid symptoms they should not go to the hospital. The corollary: people with regular conditions like heart disease should be attending hospitals.
Thus Ioannides implies that the government policy of cancelling regular appointments and clearing the hospitals for Covid patients was the wrong approach. It was the opposite of what they should have done. They succeeded in turning hospitals into places that kill people.
His research found the fatality risk rises very fast with those aged over 65, being 70 times larger in eight European countries analysed, though there is less of a risk gradient in the U.S., being 15 times higher.
TURNING TO NEW YORK
Of those under 65, they represent 5-9% in Europe but more in the U.S., 20-30% in some states. In terms of the absolute risk of under-65’s dying compared with the risk of dying from driving. In Germany the Covid death risk is the same as the risk of dying while driving to work. In the U.S., that risk is higher but still not high enough to cause worry. It New York the equivalent motoring risk is equivalent to a truck driver who has long shifts dying in an accident.
The risk of dying if you are under 65 with no underlying conditions represents less than 0.5% in Europe and around 1.0% in the U.S. In New York the risk is substantially higher – hence the truck driver analogy. It is an outlier compared to any other place in the U.S. There is contention over what should count as a Covid death. Many “probably Covid-19” deaths have been added in recent deaths and these were not tested but presumed. The Italian data is more mature and this shows that 99% of people have underlying conditions that could have led to their deaths. The U.S. data is currently too vague to draw conclusions.
In his JAMA article, Ioannides says the Italian Covid data shows it is hard to distinguish between deaths from and with Covid. Since close to 99% have underlying conditions it is very likely that many of them would have died within a very short period of time. Furthermore, countries use very different means to record deaths, particularly where death certificates are concerned. There may be a subconscious desire to list Covid as a major contributor to death where it is often an “innocent bystander”. Once we know what the Covid virus did to people, we may be able to calculate the number of “person years lost”. This is a very high figure in a 20 years old but much less in an older person.
The PCR test was a major breakthrough, allowing the detection of infectious pathogens if their genome was present in small amounts but that means you may detect something that has no clinical significance. It may detect fragments of virus but not necessarily infective virus. So you may have a positive PCR but not be infectious. Antibodies is a different story, having been used for many decades. They answer a different question: evidence of an immune response to an infection. There is the possibility of false positives and pick up traces of a response to some old coronavirus that was present in the past. So both tests must be used very carefully.

jay
jay
Apr 21, 2020 6:12 PM
Reply to  George

From what I can see on the alternative media, New York has been hyper hyped.

SSA
SSA
Apr 21, 2020 10:17 PM
Reply to  George

Do watch Dr Cameron Kyle-Sidell in the video below – and take note of Dana Ashlie’s comments afterwards. She is asking for information relating to possible installation of 5G masts/antnnas in NY. The patients brought to Cameron have healthy lungs but they have lost oxygen in the blood. Cameron is saying this is not pneumonia and whatever this illness is it should not be treated as COVID-19. WATCH:

Adam
Adam
Apr 22, 2020 10:31 AM
Reply to  SSA

According to this 5G rollout map NYC has had quite a substantial 5G rollout, whether it’s related deserves questioning given that 5G has some effect on oxygen @ 60 Ghz. How this translates biologically I don’t profess to know but surely it warrants investigation.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 21, 2020 10:53 PM
Reply to  George

No-shutting down hospital systems usually lowers the death-rate. A big strike by doctors in Argentina some years ago led to a sharp drop in deaths. Make of that what you will.

ame
ame
Apr 21, 2020 5:41 PM

i am fully cv overdosed up the whole thing even the name is annoying me now
Thursday clap will turn in to a slap!

apart from that

thanks for the comment section and Ofg articles etc

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 21, 2020 5:22 PM

Dr Ioannidis says, “In Boston 35% of people tested positive in a shelter so we made things worse for them by sending them to a shelter.” More from Greyzone – Capital in crisis: COVID-19 reveals US housing nightmare.

ame
ame
Apr 21, 2020 5:38 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

the homeless or venerable will always added tot the stats especially support housing or thoses types of places
a colleague of mine worked front line in thoses institution they used to come-in weekly back several years back to vaccination people for hep c or whatever

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 21, 2020 5:47 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

The meat of the interview: Local government will use the crisis to renew austerity, cut affordable housing and public education, to boost gentrification and the displacement of local residents, and to privatize utilities along with cash-flow to politically-connected entities – Will Merrifield, a candidate for Washington DC City Council At-Large, on the plight of the U.S. homeless population.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 21, 2020 10:55 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

The Fort Detrick virus is a good underclass remover.

breweriana
breweriana
Apr 21, 2020 5:13 PM

Given that barbers, hairdressers and the like are ‘deemed’ to be non-essential, does anyone else wonder, as I do, how the BBC and ITV presenters come to be all perfectly coiffured and manicured?

Arsebiscuits
Arsebiscuits
Apr 21, 2020 5:15 PM
Reply to  breweriana

Because they’re androids. They come like that in the box.

breweriana
breweriana
Apr 21, 2020 5:22 PM
Reply to  Arsebiscuits

And the ministers speaking every day from the lectern, they are androids too?

Paul too
Paul too
Apr 21, 2020 8:47 PM
Reply to  breweriana

They’re the dumbed down, budget version.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 21, 2020 10:56 PM
Reply to  Paul too

Reject sex-dolls. Or crash-test dummies, who proved less useful than dead pigs.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 21, 2020 10:55 PM
Reply to  Arsebiscuits

Autons.

Rhys Jaggar
Rhys Jaggar
Apr 21, 2020 5:36 PM
Reply to  breweriana

The BBC never, ever do as they are told, like they order others to do or else.

They are above the law, above humanity, above doing as they are told.

They make SUCH good role models for authority, don’t they?

kelly
kelly
Apr 21, 2020 5:54 PM
Reply to  breweriana

Yes, I’ve been banging on about this for weeks now to anyone who will listen. It’s not just the presenters but also the ‘experts’ and politicians at the daily press conferences.

It’s quite clear that anyone appearing on TV on this subject now regards themselves as exempt from staying away from hairdressers, perhaps on the grounds that they would lose some authority if they had a hair out place. In fact it seems to me quite the opposite, as it’s well known that having a hairdo plays a huge part in mental well-being and being put to shame every time you turn on the telly, on top of everything else, can’t help.

And this can’t be dismissed as a trivial issue, or why would they do it?

ame
ame
Apr 21, 2020 7:13 PM
Reply to  breweriana

for them BBC and ITV presenters M<P's its a essential service being a c you next Thursday ;0)

Cheezilla
Cheezilla
Apr 21, 2020 9:01 PM
Reply to  breweriana

Oh I don’t know. Emily Maitlis’ hair is starting to look excessively exuberant lately.

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
Apr 23, 2020 4:18 PM
Reply to  breweriana

Piers Morgan is obviously sensitive to this possible attack, as he made a big point of putting a picture (not video) on the screen that purportedly showed his wife cutting his hair.

Speaking of Good Morning Britain, I could not help but notice that his co-presenter clearly did not have access to a hair stylist whilst she was self isolating, but equally clearly does have access to a hair stylist now she is back in the studio.

bob
bob
Apr 21, 2020 5:03 PM
Dave
Dave
Apr 21, 2020 5:29 PM
Reply to  bob

This thread is not accepting new messages.

Saved it at archive.org

Reg
Reg
Apr 21, 2020 5:55 PM
Reply to  bob

Such a mild bunch of people. None of them saying it’s all a fricking lie. That they’ve been hoodwinked big time.

jay
jay
Apr 21, 2020 6:15 PM
Reply to  Reg

In not those exact words…
But 90% of the posts question why their wards are empty.

clickkid
clickkid
Apr 21, 2020 6:59 PM
Reply to  jay

Everyone has to begin somewhere.

Reg
Reg
Apr 22, 2020 1:01 AM
Reply to  clickkid

I suppose so. I hope there’s some outrage and indignation at some point over perhaps life not being what they’ve been told it is.

esmeuta
esmeuta
Apr 23, 2020 2:15 AM
Reply to  Reg

If anyone is going to see through it eventually, I’d bet money on the women over at mumsnet. They were some of the first to see through the trans nonsense while everyone else was falling all over themselves and putting women in danger for fear of being seen as politically incorrect.

jay
jay
Apr 21, 2020 6:10 PM
Reply to  bob

Thanks..
1000 posts, 90% of which confirm this

Alan Tench
Alan Tench
Apr 21, 2020 7:02 PM
Reply to  bob

Mumsnet – yet another website where you’ll be shafted with the Quantcast Cookie Deployer that won’t let you past it.

Reg
Reg
Apr 21, 2020 5:03 PM

Doctors Judy Mikovits and Rashid Buttar speak. Well worth watching . . .

Objective
Objective
Apr 21, 2020 7:06 PM
Reply to  Reg

I’ve been saying this for days. Politicians even if there is overwhelming evidence they are/were wrong, they won’t row back on this, they wont put their hands up & say we fucked up! So we are going to suffer the consequences of technocrats & MSM hysteria making all the wrong decisions. All become of an Imperial College Model (that hadn’t undergone peer review) produced mostly by statisticians & guess work.

visitor
visitor
Apr 21, 2020 7:31 PM
Reply to  Objective

The Imperial College’s paper (which btw Dr. Ionnadis with a straight face said “very impressive how they put that together in such a short time” ) is a pretext.

NYTimes and the rest of corporate propaganda news services were citing that paper as “the reason” the clowns-in-cheif in US and UK did a u-turn. So even if this wanker from the Imperial College was an idiot forecaster, the question remains why neither US nor the UK government chose to get a second opinion or even ask for private qualified peer review of the paper.

Imperial College has a lot to answer, but do not forget those who apparently were waiting in the wing to latch on to that paper.

Objective
Objective
Apr 21, 2020 7:40 PM
Reply to  visitor

The whole thing reeks of corruption & incompetence.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Apr 22, 2020 5:15 PM
Reply to  visitor

The Imperial College paper will go down in history as the “Dodgy Dossier” of this democratic crisis, with perhaps a Campbell-like figure in the background busily “sexing it up”.

Richard Anthony
Richard Anthony
Apr 21, 2020 8:02 PM
Reply to  Reg

Doctors Judy Mikovits and Rashid Buttar, not experts in epidemiology and not credible sources :
Mikovits has garnered criticism from some scientists for stating that XMRV is a communicable infection which is “clearly circulating through the population as is our fear and your fear”.
Rashid Buttar is an American osteopathic physician from Charlotte, North Carolina. He is known for his controversial use of chelation therapy for numerous conditions, including autism and cancer.[1] He has been reprimanded by the North Carolina Board of Medical Examiners for unethical treatment of patients.[2]

Reg
Reg
Apr 22, 2020 1:03 AM

In short, the Establishment don’t like them. Therefore they are non-persons.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 24, 2020 10:17 AM
Reply to  Reg

If the Medical Illuminati are agin you, you’re probable a true healer, a type these medical businessmen abhor.

Maxwell
Maxwell
Apr 21, 2020 5:02 PM

Study from LA county just released:

With the substantially higher estimate of cases, that suggests the mortality rate for the county is much lower than the current 4.4%, said L.A. County Public Health Director Dr. Barbara Ferrer. She pegged it at closer to .1% or .2%.

“I think if there is a part of this that’s hopeful for us, it is that the mortality rate now has dropped a lot,” she said.

https://laist.com/2020/04/20/coronavirus_la_study_antibodies_mortality_rate.php

TrueNorth
TrueNorth
Apr 22, 2020 3:36 PM
Reply to  Maxwell

Saying that “mortality rate now has dropped a lot” means something very different than the mortality rate has been overestimated until now. A person with medical education in a public office should know how to speak correctly.

Maxwell
Maxwell
Apr 22, 2020 4:28 PM
Reply to  TrueNorth

Good point.

S Cooper
S Cooper
Apr 21, 2020 4:51 PM

One possible name for this corporate fascist lockdown is “How the seasonal flu was turned into the Black Death.”

Can not believe I am using these quotes. “Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.” “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

The US Bill of Rights will stand. Long overdue for the corporate fascist oligarch mobsters to go.

visitor
visitor
Apr 21, 2020 7:38 PM
Reply to  S Cooper

A movement is being born…

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 21, 2020 4:46 PM

This is funny, at the risk of getting slammed for having looked at the site: The Limited Edition Infowars Covid Mask, complete with logo, is available on the site for $9.95, shipping in… … … two weeks.

cupid stunt
cupid stunt
Apr 21, 2020 6:01 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

Just remember this Moneycircus (great name by the way !) If others slam you for trying to offer advice and guidance to others with good intention, then their own cricket bat will come back round and slap them hard on the back of their heads. And of course, yes, there is always a commercial aspect to most things – Stay safe, good friend !

Blubber
Blubber
Apr 21, 2020 8:02 PM
Reply to  cupid stunt

Your name is quite fantastic

Shaking My Head
Shaking My Head
Apr 21, 2020 4:28 PM

This is the first time I’ve seen anything along these lines from the corporate media (posted 3 hours ago),
“Politicians ‘don’t have the guts to admit COVID-19 was exaggerated’” from Sky News Australia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J3gWwG_ty4
Interesting at 3:10 the news anchor quotes a doctor who says the mortality rate is not worse than the flu, similar to what Ioannidis says.

Again, may be “controlled opposition” as some skeptics may say, but it’s still might signal an interesting shift in the narrative. I was thinking something like this might be on the way, because two days or so ago, I saw a discussion on CNN about using antibody testing to potentially ‘free up communities’, which is quite the change from the total panic lockdown they were pumping out just before. (My guess it is a way to anticipate and integrate the deflationary findings of the Stanford study while still controlling the narrative).

Another news release for a study coming out of Los Angeles: ”
Los Angeles (April 20, 2020) – USC and the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health (Public Health) today released preliminary results from a collaborative scientific study that suggests infections from the new coronavirus are far more widespread – and the fatality rate much lower – in L.A. County than previously thought. ”
http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/phcommon/public/media/mediapubhpdetail.cfm?prid=2328&fbclid=IwAR3Ivr8JIxbUDf2w68S4wCDP1xu6Cd_Cv_jaSnWBairDwgwLNTB4p-CPTL4

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 21, 2020 4:55 PM

You can be 100% sure this is the government testing the waters. As you note it’s a complete reversal and out of character, given how the media has been in lockstep. Back in the day, when the newspapers dominated the news cycle governments would use the Sunday columns to float controversial ideas.
I’d hazard a guess that Sky and CNN are the modern equivalent today for floating ideas before going to the state channels like the BBC (I’ve worked for all three).

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Apr 22, 2020 5:18 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

For what it’s worth, the Daily Heil is now pushing the story that a large number (over 2000 a week I think) of cancers are being “missed”, due to non-Covid-19 medical attendances not taking place. Although previously they have pushed the fear, panic and dread agenda like the rest of the MSM.

MoH
MoH
Apr 21, 2020 5:24 PM

I think this is about psychology as most people believe that there is a real epidemic and they will have invested a lot psychologically in it, which will take a lot for them to abandon. They will have to believe that their government hates them (which is not easy as they see government, media, ‘scientists’ etc bending over backwards to help them) and they are very indoctrinated into believing this. The mind is an interesting organ as it shields its hosts from anything that will devastate their world. The oligarchs understand our minds very well and all their agendas are about exploiting us. So I think they know the die is cast, and they can set the two groups (believers and sceptics) against each other, with the believers to be the henchmen against the sceptics. This is happening in the US now. Its rather like all the other oligarchical agendas such as immigration and LGBT. There is more than enough evidence to suggest those things cause more problems than not, but the faithful will believe in them no matter what

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 21, 2020 11:00 PM

If you believe Murdoch’s worst sewer, Skynews, then I imagine that when you shake your head you hear a distinct rattling noise.

Reg
Reg
Apr 21, 2020 3:57 PM
clickkid
clickkid
Apr 21, 2020 3:49 PM

Thanks OffG for bringing us this great interview.

I love the Professor’s polite, careful, understated manner and wise conclusions.

Just what a hysterical world currently needs.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 21, 2020 3:42 PM

Highlights. My notes from the interview. ON SOCIAL DISTANCING @46
There are very many different kinds, closing schools, stopping travel, banning meetings, and what is the threshold? Just saying measures work is a poor statement, an over generalization and we need to scrutinize what worked and what may have done some harm.
The evidence we have is that primary school closures may reduce deaths by 2% [@47:24 in the above video] which is a very small number but if the benefit is so tiny and the adverse consequences are far bigger if you destroy society and the economy… indeed it is possible that since children in general don’t get severe disease they could contribute towards a pool of herd immunity. Maybe it would have been better to keep children at school than to have them live in close quarters with their family and infect them.
Social distancing measures may have different ability to decrease or increase the number infections depending at what stage they are imposed. If you go into lockdown when 30% of the people are already infected then you are forcing them to stay in close quarters with vulnerable individuals day and night.
It also has a different impact on rich and poor. Some people have a lot of space, a nice house, but most people cannot keep a distance from their relatives. Many others have no place to shelter at all. In Boston 35% of people tested positive in a shelter so we made things worse for them by sending them to a shelter.
Sheltering in place is fine for us who are well off but we are making things much worse for the vast majority of people who are disadvantaged. We may be creating more homeless people and in the setting of a pandemic they will become victims while we are sitting in our nice homes.
@55 COULD IMPERIAL REALLY HAVE MADE A SIMPLE MISTAKE.
Unfortunately, yes, and that is not a sign that science is failing. The Imperial College study used inaccurate inputs. They worked under stressful conditions with limited evidence and the default option was to predict the worst. They got it astronomically wrong but science got it right pretty quickly.
The infection fatality rate is very low. These forecasts that there would be high death rates if we had done nothing is science fiction. That doesn’t mean social distancing did nothing. Some may have worked, some may have done harm.

Admin2
Admin
Admin2
Apr 21, 2020 4:05 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

The evidence we have is that primary school closures may reduce deaths by 2%

Please can you cite this claim.

The ONS data reveals that at least half excess mortality in UK does NOT mention C19 on the death certificate. Previous pieces have also dealt at length with the fact that diagnosis for C19-related deaths is extremely prejudiced toward C19, rendering the reported C19 mortality next to meaningless.

C19 has been revealed by every official source for some time to be a rather innocuous flu-like virus in the vast majority of people, and those who do die are largely very sick and/or elderly people with co-morbidities, many of whom, as stated in the Imperial report, would be expected to die soon anyway. C19 mirrors natural mortality. Viewed with this undisputed, readily available information in mind, ‘catching it’, and the danger associated with such, is rendered rather redundant.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 21, 2020 4:39 PM
Reply to  Admin2

Sure. My notes are taken entirely from Ioannidis’ content… @47:24 his exact quote is: “For example school closures, the evidence that we have is that maybe school closures decreased deaths by 1/150th or 2% in relative terms which is a very small number. Again this is preliminary knowledge and it needs to be vetted and examined in more depth but if really the benefit from school closure, especially kindergarten, elementary school and even middle school is so tiny and the adverse consequences from closing schools are far bigger in terms of many other consequences, that could translate down the road into death equivalents if you destroy society and the economy, you are likely to pay that in deaths among citizens.”

Admin2
Admin
Admin2
Apr 21, 2020 5:41 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

Thanks for that. I added this to your post.

JohnB
JohnB
Apr 22, 2020 10:26 AM
Reply to  Admin2

Of course whoever says it (and I respect Ioannidis’ recent output very much) ‘maybe’ is not evidence.

Philippe
Philippe
Apr 21, 2020 4:41 PM
Reply to  Admin2

The ONS data reveals that at least half excess mortality in UK does NOT mention C19 on the death certificate.

Puzzling over this earlier today when the latest ONS figures came out (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/causesofdeath/articles/comparisonofweeklydeathoccurrencesinenglandandwales/uptoweekending10april2020 – it’s easier to read if you download the .xls chart into Excel).

The ‘at home’ death figures are particularly interesting. We have seen the lengths to which the govt are going to cite ‘covid death’ wherever possible, so how and why are so many people dying at home yet slipping through the ‘covid death’ net? What is killing them? Or is it all just a below-par statistical exercise?

Admin2
Admin
Admin2
Apr 21, 2020 5:40 PM
Reply to  Philippe

No doubt we have the fascinating instalment to look forward to in which it ‘comes out’ that all these poor people have died of Covid19 alone in their homes – undiagnosed, statistically neglected, sometimes lying there cold for days on end, the bodies piling up, ignored by the Tories who should have locked them down earlier and bought them more masks – whereas in reality it will have become increasingly difficult to die from anything BUT Covid19.

visitor
visitor
Apr 22, 2020 12:58 AM
Reply to  Philippe

Undercounting c.o.d. at home supports the official narrative, so if they are fudging numbers, it is not surprising that they would undercount, as this is effectively saying that “the best chance of not catching the virus is to stay at home. Most who die at home die of existing medical conditions, old age, or suicide”.

It would also be specially problematic for the official narrative if those who have self isolated for a longer period than the (2 week?) incubation persiod end up dying of Covid-19. Basically, no one who has self isolated longer than the incubation period can possibly die of Covid-19, per the official position on this virus. On the other hand, if the virus has been with us for longer than we think and far more were already (benignly) infected by the novel Coronavirus of 2019, and thus present in many of isolated dead, then that would completely shut down the panicdemic.

SSA
SSA
Apr 22, 2020 7:45 AM
Reply to  Admin2

Hello Off-G Admin. Have you removed my comment I put up yesterday? If so, this is censorship. I said something to the effect that John Ioannidis’s hysterical laughter at one point indicated that he was terrified of people/institutions like Gates, CDC, Big Pharma. He skirted a direct question about Gates’s nonsensical pronouncements and declared himself to be a great supporter of vaccines but then engaged in some damage limitation by saying that the new vaccine for covid19 must be thoroughly tested.

P.S. It is not easy to find a particular comment in a forest of comments. This shows Off-G’s popularity. Would it be possible to introduce a simple way to look for individual comments?

Geo
Geo
Apr 21, 2020 3:37 PM

Ioannidis seems to be on the money. Interesting how his study has been aggressively attacked by the MSM. I mean, instead of trying to discredit his study, as if they refuse to believe that the IFR could be similar to that of ‘normal’ flu, they could just be open minded to the possibility that their Apocalypse narrative is no longer valid?

We need a few more of these studies to come out, but isn’t there already supporting evidence such as the diamond princess (IFR of 1% for median age 65), Germany and South Korea (higher testing numbers = 0.2%) ?

The IFR is no longer the key question mark for me. The key question now is how we keep the R down once countries are back to a blank slate.

If we are to assume 0.1% / UK deaths = 16,509, then we assume a total infected number of 16.5 million of the UK population. So about 25% of the UK population may have already been infected. Potentially 1/4 of the population already have some level of immunity. The R value should therefore drop by a quarter once lockdown is lifted, but obviously once you get past 50% then the R rate falls substantially lower.

Conceive
Conceive
Apr 21, 2020 3:26 PM

Why Bill Gates feels so at home so dandy and rejoicing in this climate?

Thom
Thom
Apr 21, 2020 3:35 PM
Reply to  Conceive

Wouldn’t Gates be keeping a lower profile at present if he was leading the whole conspiracy?
More likely it is Jeff Bezos – or at least his bosses. Shut most of the shops, get people queuing for the others so they lose trade, and leave the field wide open for Amazon. Nice.

Conceive
Conceive
Apr 21, 2020 4:07 PM
Reply to  Thom

OK folks, be prepared to have vaccine subscriptions soon. One vaccine will not be enough. Scientists have found a huge number of virus mutations. We have to keep up-to-date with the latest mutations, just like Microsoft and Adobe software updates.

We have to stay at the forefront of the ‘latest’ mutations. Perhaps, we will have a vein cap, which opens/closes the vein to receive the vaccines for the latest mutations.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Apr 22, 2020 5:25 PM
Reply to  Conceive

The first version of the vaccine will not work, and will have an incredibly long “bug (ho ho) list”.

But the next version will…oops, no it didn’t. And so on.

“Fixed in the next release”.

cupid stunt
cupid stunt
Apr 21, 2020 6:11 PM
Reply to  Thom

Good comment Thom ! Could I just add that if people made some effort to address their craving for things they don’t actually need right now, then they would stop buying from these mega-corporations. Stop buying rubbish or watching Netflix and read a book or write a poem or a song instead and turn the TV off – then there will be less slime oozing out.

Butties
Butties
Apr 21, 2020 8:41 PM
Reply to  Thom

Amazon today giving away free ebooks and stuff!

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Apr 21, 2020 3:16 PM

Highlights. My notes from the interview. @36:30 ON THE PROSPECTS FOR A VACCINE
As to any recurrence of the infection it is a speculative hypothesis. One idea is that you have antibodies but not enough to protect against a future infection. This is unlikely within a year but like all viruses it may come back in a changed form in three or four years, just as influenza does. The way that young people are recovering – even with low antibody titre – means there may be more than one way in which they are developing immunity. That affects the prospects for a vaccine. The classic vaccine wants to generate an antibody response that lasts. However if that response only lasts a short time, then the value of that vaccine is less relevant.
I would like to be optimistic that we can regain our functional life before a vaccine becomes available. There are all these caveats about whether a vaccine can be achieved and go into production. I am a great fan of vaccines, as one of the greatest contributions of science and great success stories. This does not mean we will have a success story with a coronavirus vaccine. Previous attempts have not been successful. Some vaccines were developed for coronavirus in animals and they caused more damage than not giving them at all. They led to a hypersensitivity response so that when the animal was exposed to the actual coronavirus they overreacted, including death.
We need to understand if it is the virus or the immune response that is doing the damage. If it is the virus and we are not getting enough of an immune response then we need a vaccine. If the problem is that it is the overreaction of our immune system that leads to the destruction of our lung cells than a vaccine may be a bad idea.
A vaccine needs to be very thoroughly vetted and tested. We need solid evidence that it works, that it makes things better, that it will save lives. This cannot be done overnight. I wish we could do it fast but it is unlikely that we will be able to wait for 12, 18 or 24 months for a vaccine while remaining in lockdown. It would create huge problems for health, unemployment, for our society that are much worse than the most pessimistic outcome of Covid.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Apr 22, 2020 5:32 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

The story of the overreaction of the immune system one is a favourite one of allopathic medicine. I think allopathic medicine must hate the immune system, since so much of what it does actively acts against it, e.g. steroids, antibiotics, radiotherapy, chemotherapy.

If the approach was to improve the overall health of people using more natural methods (e.g. nutrition, vitamins, minerals), rather than trying to destroy external agents which have allegedly invaded the body and allegedly caused disease, there may be better outcomes all round.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 25, 2020 9:20 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

Hence the ever-growing plague of auto-immune diseases.

Maxwell
Maxwell
Apr 21, 2020 3:15 PM

Has anyone looked at the CDC Flu Surveillance reports lately? These reports are weekly and they have been doing them for 20 years now. Without going into them into too much detail here are some recent anomalies that are quite striking- not sure what to make of them.

Historically and almost without exception the flu positive numbers are at their highest around Jan/Feb and taper off gradually- you know flu season.Putting aside how the flu is categorized by the CDC what one finds is that here in the last three weeks flu positives are at an overall and unprecedented low.

In Weeks 12,13,14 (the latest reported) those positive specimen percentages for the flu went down from 6.9%, 2.1% and 0.8% respectively. This after all time highs in weeks 6,7,8 of 30.8%, 29.6% and 26.4% respectively.

I examined the weekly CDC flu data going back 10 years and never in this time frame had they ever recorded a flu positive percentage under 10 percent. And in EVERY single year and week up until this year the taper was gradual as it would descend in say Week 6 from 24% to 18% by Week 14- for example.

The drop after Week 11 this season was off a cliff- and here we are in Week 14 at 0.8%? That’s simply not possible no matter how many schools are closed, “social distancing” measures are in place and so forth.

I’ve charted all of this data for the last 10 years- Weeks 6-14- and when you see it in graphs the statistical deviation of the last 3 weeks of flu positives as recorded by the CDC is jaw dropping- we are talking aberrations on the order of 600-900 percent- that is not a typo.

On average Week 14 flu positives over the last 10 years has been 13.5% and this year it is at 0.8%? That’s simply not possible.What gives?

The CDC also states this on their site:

“Nationally, influenza activity is now low.With ongoing declines in influenza activity and the continued effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, FluView will be abbreviated for the remainder of the 2019-2020 season.”

In short it seems the CDC is no longer going to be charting flu data and will focus (replace?) on COVID data in it’s stead. Has the flu been disappeared?

Does this not have to have been done with intent? How can you go from reporting flu numbers of around 13 percent in Week 14 for twenty years to 0.8 percent this year during a time when you want everyone’s attentions to be on this Other virus- this is a deviation over 1,500 percent.

And then the CDC states they will no longer be doing the meticulous studies of the flu virus which has been their main focus almost to the point of being a religion for the past twenty years.

And they were doing a similar numbers of flu tests in Weeks 12,13,14 this year- in fact more than most weeks from past years.

Something smells rotten here.

Butties
Butties
Apr 21, 2020 8:52 PM
Reply to  Maxwell

Having collected and collated all this data is there anyway you can publish it? If so please provide a link.

Maxwell
Maxwell
Apr 21, 2020 9:10 PM
Reply to  Butties

I will be doing so and will submit it to this site as well as some others.

What perplexes me still even as I have pored over these fantastical numbers is the simple question as to what is the explanation for this aberration. Once I have finished the piece- hopefully end of this week- I will contact the CDC and ask for their explanation.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Apr 22, 2020 5:33 PM
Reply to  Maxwell

Good luck! (I mean that seriously).

Steve
Steve
Apr 21, 2020 3:03 PM

This is an interesting vid from a front line doctor inside a hospital calling bullshit on the crony virus. He mentions the testing method used for the virus and this corroborates what Dr.Ioannidis says here and what David Icke said in his London Real interview.

Steve
Steve
Apr 21, 2020 3:04 PM
Reply to  Steve

Hmmm, same vid as just posted above!

Paul Vonharnish
Paul Vonharnish
Apr 21, 2020 3:42 PM
Reply to  Steve

Hello Steve: This is one of the most straight forward videos on the internet. This guy’s questions are right on the dime. I hope other readers disseminate this video as widely as possible. Thanks for posting.

Philippe
Philippe
Apr 21, 2020 4:19 PM
Reply to  Steve

He is making very similar comments to a lot of other medical professionals in his position, so you could just call it corroborative testimony for what a lot of us already suspect.

What I found particularly interesting was his comment re the US govt getting Ford and GM to produce ventilators, rather than going to their usual suppliers. Wasn’t there talk in the UK of our govt going to Dyson (and someone else – can’t remember now), rather than their usual suppliers?

Is the same happening in other countries? Two countries doing this doesn’t constitute a pattern, but if half a dozen countries are doing the same thing …

Can anybody suggest a reason why companies that specialise in products other than ventilators are being approached to produce ventilators all of a sudden? When I say ‘reason’, I mean a rational, ‘would bear public scrutiny’ reason. The easy answer would be payback for favours/donations, but I don’t want to leap straight onto that if there is another, potentially genuine, option.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Apr 22, 2020 5:36 PM
Reply to  Philippe

I guess vacuum cleaners aren’t selling too well just at the moment.

I assume any product made under the auspices of “Sir” James Dyson would be manufactured abroad.

IANA
IANA
Apr 21, 2020 4:41 PM
Reply to  Steve

Excellent synopsis thanks for posting.

Cheezilla
Cheezilla
Apr 21, 2020 8:30 PM
Reply to  Steve

Yikes. He asks the same questions I’ve pondered for a few weeks now. The obvious answers are very worrying.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 21, 2020 11:02 PM
Reply to  Steve

If it’s all phony, why’s he wearing a mask?

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Apr 22, 2020 5:37 PM

Maybe it’s a condition of his employment?

Maybe it reassures the patient?

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Apr 25, 2020 9:21 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

Oh, OK.

Croach
Croach
Apr 21, 2020 2:53 PM

Something clicked for me whilst watching this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVe3PQ-dHwY&feature=youtu.be
Breathing difficulties are an extremely common symptom (we need to find some stats) in people presenting to a&e with heart trouble.
Anyone presenting to a&e with breathing problems is automatically considered ‘potential covid’.
Anyone who is potential covid is not allowed to go on normal non-invasive respirators, which work via aerosol, because of the perceived (no actual evidence) threat of spreading the virus via aeresol.
Result is an epidemic of people with heart disease (2nd biggest killer in western world) dying as a result of lack of oxygen in the blood.
Which of course is made even worse by people delaying going to hospital, missing normal treatments and the effect stress has on pre-existing conditions.
This explains why so few of these hospital deaths are happening in critical care as doctors know ventilation is pointless for these people.
They can stop this any time by reintroducing normal use of non-invasive respirators.
I expect plenty of doctors are already ignoring official guidelines and doing so.
This is the biggest corporate manslaughter case in history.

Maxwell
Maxwell
Apr 21, 2020 3:21 PM
Reply to  Croach

This is correct- last night I spoke to a good friend who lives in a metropolitan area in the NE. He lives down the street from his daughter and takes care of his grandson during the day while the daughter is at work. She is a doctor in a large hospital and what you just described fits with her story.

They are no longer using the “accepted protocol” as it wasn’t working- nor are they diagnosing “COVID.” They are currently using an anti-inflammatory that is normally used for cancer patients, their hospital specializes in treating cancer, and it seems to be working in the short term.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Apr 22, 2020 5:41 PM
Reply to  Maxwell

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) can quickly help to reoxygenate the blood, and also can act as an anti-inflammatory.

Despair Squid
Despair Squid
Apr 21, 2020 4:24 PM
Reply to  Croach

And perhaps this is the reason why governments are rushing to legislate to prevent legal recourse to the hospitals and the medics involved.

When you look at the UK Intensive Care report (https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports) and the proportion of “Covid” patients put on ventilators (even with the dire results associated with ventilators) it is truly frightening.

Coincidentally(?), the early reports of the symptoms associated with serious Covid-19 cases seemed to be very similar to the symptoms associated with ventilator-induced lung injury.

From the very start of this outbreak, there were questions being asked about the appropriateness of ventilator treatment for “Covid” patients and yet ventilators were in all of the headlines and were the defined treatment that must be followed – no questions asked.

How many additional deaths has this caused I wonder…

Shaking My Head
Shaking My Head
Apr 21, 2020 8:45 PM
Reply to  Croach

Related? “Is Protocol-Driven COVID-19 Ventilation Doing More Harm Than Good?” in Medscape. April 6 2020.
http://archive.is/xGcCp

Selections:

Physicians in the COVID-19 trenches are beginning to question whether standard respiratory therapy protocols for Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS) are the best approach for treating patients with COVID-19 pneumonia.

At issue is the standard use of ventilators for a virus whose presentation has not followed the standard for ARDS, but is looking more like high-altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) in some patients.

In a letter to the editor published in the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine on March 30, and in an editorial accepted for publication in Intensive Care Medicine, Luciano Gattinoni, MD, of the Medical University of Göttingen in Germany, and his colleagues make the case that protocol-driven ventilator use for patients with COVID-19 could be doing more harm than good.

In the editorial, Dr. Gattinoni and his colleagues explained further that ventilator settings should be based on physiological findings — with different respiratory treatment based on disease phenotype rather than using standard protocols.

While not willing to name the hospitals at this time, he said that one center in Europe has had a 0% mortality rate among COVID-19 patients in the intensive care unit when using this approach, compared with a 60% mortality rate at a nearby hospital using a protocol-driven approach.

Basher
Basher
Apr 22, 2020 10:52 AM
Reply to  Croach

“This is the biggest corporate manslaughter case in history”

But, in the UK for sure, there can’t be a court case – the Emergency CoronaVirus act has removed any liability for damage caused by medical ‘treatment’

Fair dinkum
Fair dinkum
Apr 21, 2020 2:51 PM

“The (insert your government’s name here) would like to announce that together we have beaten the virus and most restrictions, will be wound back from _ _ _ _.

However.

We believe that to ‘virus proof ‘ us for the future, we must maintain a regime of CONSTANT VIGILANCE.

Thank you for your cooperation and remember, we are here to serve the NATIONAL INTEREST.”

(Or some such slimy speak slithering from their forked tongues).

NowhereOH
NowhereOH
Apr 21, 2020 6:32 PM
Reply to  Fair dinkum

*nods sadly* “We have also discovered that one of the main causes of viral transmission is individual liberty. While we are somewhat unclear on the concept, we are still dedicating to finding and confiscating this dangerous contaminant. We for your patience and assistance. Remember to report on neighbors, family, and friends!”