Covid19 & the denial of veridical reality
Catte Black
It probably hasn’t passed anyone by that the covid19 crisis, whether manufactured or exploited, has caused great schisms in the alternative media.
Almost from day one there was a divide between those who opted to accept and even endorse the rollout of authoritarian measures by governments around the world as ‘necessary evils’ (or even as harbingers of a world socialist revolution; beats me how that is supposed to work but still), and those who pointed out that this rollout was at best flagrantly disproportionate and opportunistic, and at worst a planned response to a planned or cynically manipulated ‘pandemic’.
Over the last few months the position of the latter has become stronger by the day, while that of the former has been weakened to the point of collapse.
As we have pointed out many times the official data has never supported the panic memes. In fact the two entities, data and narrative, co-exist almost independently of one another, telling mutually contradictory stories, without anyone in the Panic-sphere (to coin a phrase) seeming to notice or mind very much.
It’s as if on this topic some very smart people have been hypnotised or vaccinated against fact. They see the numbers, they read the data, but it just does not compute.
When invited to discuss with us these people become hostile, even aggressive. They bluster, they accuse us of manipulation and deceit, of being uncaring about the sick and dying, even of working for the capitalists (because apparently it is now a truth universally acknowledged that the best way to start a revolution is to lock everyone in their houses and give Bill Gates and the WHO the key).
And when pushed into a corner, these otherwise smart people simply deny the facts staring them in the face.
A good illustration of this happened the other day one Twitter.
Tim Anderson, one of those otherwise very smart and focused guys, has been firmly lodged in the Panic-sphere from the outset. He is fairly careful to avoid fact-based discussion, but does indulge heavily in purple-tinged emotional condemnations of those evil people (like us) who are uncaring enough to cite the data on infection and fatality rates.
A couple of days ago he tweeted some of that condemnation:
Time will judge harshly those ignorant but know-it-all commentators who joined the pandemic deniers, anti-science and anti-vax crowds, swinging from 'no worse than a common cold' to 'a plot to poison us all'. Why would people trust them on any other real social issues, in future?
— tim anderson (@timand2037) May 25, 2020
And, for once, we replied, as so…
Are you claiming #covid19 is NOT symptomless to >80% of those infected?
Are you claiming it does NOT give the vast majority who get symptoms nothing more than a cold or mild flu?
Will you give a straight answer for once? https://t.co/1pc4SCiXKr
— OffGuardian (@OffGuardian0) May 25, 2020
Tim did not respond to these questions so far as we are aware, but Moon of Alabama (another otherwise insightful and respected commentator) did. This is what he said.
Covid-19 is NOT symptomless for most grown ups who get it. 80% only present 'mild'
symptoms i.e. they do not develop pneumonia. It
is NOT mild to 20% of cases and very dangerous for 5%. Some 1% of infected die.
Your rejection of current science is embarrassing.@timand2037— Moon of Alabama (@MoonofA) May 25, 2020
Now there is of course only one major objection to this – namely that it is not true.
Or at least some of it is not true and the rest is simply re-stating exactly what we already said while seeming to deny it.
We responded to MoA with two tweets. In the first we linked him directly to Chris Whitty, UK Chief Medical Officer and lockdown proponent, emphatically and clearly restating the facts about covid19’s absolute and unambiguous non-lethality to the vast majority of human beings.
— OffGuardian (@OffGuardian0) May 25, 2020
In the second we tried to point out that he is condemning us for ignoring science while clearly doing just that himself…
What you, MoA call 'science' is mostly speculation & data-free fear memes in the media.
We focus instead on solid official data & expert testimony.
Given your recent output do you really want to open up a discussion about who is or is not embarrassing themselves right now?
— OffGuardian (@OffGuardian0) May 25, 2020
He didn’t reply.
This exchange is pretty typical of many others.
Is this ideology trumping objectivity? Is the bizarre belief that many on the Left seem to have developed that the lockdown is going to bring about revolution or some other form of benign new world order, simply overriding their common sense?
How do you become so inured to veridical reality?
And where do we go from here?
Answers on a postcard please.
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A friend drew my attention to this post, where the author claims I am “fairly careful to avoid fact-based discussion”. Perhaps that is because the author thinks all such discussion involves responding to tweets? In any case, a week before this article I wrote a long, fourth research essay on the COVID19 topic. The author’s research seems to have missed it. Here it is. https://ahtribune.com/world/covid-19/4181-pandemic-defrocked-hegemonic-neoliberalism.html
Why not just ask yourself whether Norway and Denmark are moving towards Sweden’s more laissez faire approach or vice versa. And, Scandinavians generally being charming and honest, they often explain why: ‘She conceded that she, together with the Directorate of Health, had overruled the advice of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health, which had not wanted to close schools or borders…..”I probably took many of the decisions out of fear.”’ https://www.thelocal.no/20200528/norway-pm-was-it-necessary-to-close-schools-maybe-not ‘In an in-depth article, the Politiken newspaper detailed how the government’s emergency law on March 12 had stripped powers from the Danish Health Authority, changing it from an “regulatory authority” to an “advisory” one. This allowed the government to ignore the authority’s opinion that Covid-19 was not a sufficiently dangerous disease to permit the government to impose compulsory interventions on the public under Denmark’s epidemic law.’ https://www.thelocal.dk/20200529/leaked-emails-show-how-denmarks-pm-steam-rollered-her-own-health-agency Britain? We removed Covid 19 from the High Consequence Infectious Disease list… Read more »
I was quite gobsmacked by your article, and replied thus – the comment was deleted by AHTribune: “Most revealing, thanks. Eminent virologists have from the outset argued that Covid-19 is just another coronavirus, that the young and healthy should be exposed to it, and the old and frail protected. Typical are Prof Alexander Kekulé, chair of Medical Microbiology and Virology of the Martin Luther University Halle-Wittenberg (‘Infect the young and protect others at risk’), Dr Pietro Vernazza, Swiss specialist in infectious diseases and professorof health policy (‘If we close the schools, we willprevent the children from quickly becoming immune’ and many others, none of whom have been shown to be compromised by vested interests. The New Zealand experience supports this view, in that of the 21 ‘Covid-related deaths’ [sic], the deceased have averaged 80 years of age, and with one possible exception have all had known comorbidities; most were the… Read more »
In general, people tend to believe what they personally want to believe. We generate our own personal version of reality and are very uncomfortable when things like “facts” and “truth” shine bright lights on our bad thinking. Patience is important and necessary. The truth about the time we live in now is very uncomfortable. Dangerous events will come harder and faster. Confusion, bitterness and loneliness will spread like a dark storm over the world. In all of this, there is only one path into the light, and that is through the narrow gate of the one called “Jesus”. Most will reject His offer of salvation. Some will bitterly hate Him, but He is the Truth and He will not be denied. These are the very times He warned to watch out for. I have peace in Him. I watch these times unfold like a movie. I am not fearful, nor… Read more »
What I believe is that your Abrahamic desert cults are a part of the reason we’re in this mess. Humans are naturally communitarian and co-operative but as soon as you start dividing people by ideology you’ve lost the plot.
Exactly, Hector. The Abrahamic superstitions are basically xenophobic cults of hatred of the other. Christ preached a universalist religion, based on ancient ethics shared by religions from China and India to the Middle East, and the Talmudists revile him, and his mother, and his followers, for it. And the so-called Christian Zionists, Dominionists, Pentecostals etc,have reverted to their roots and preach hatred and destruction of their enemies.
And you have been watching the history channel and too much Chanel 4. Academic papers, research, nearly all NT and OT scholars would be pudding
Themselves laughing at you muppet! How can you be here seeing the bullshit Covid narrative through critical thinking and then say, I saw da Vinci Code – Jesus was a Wife Beating Rick star who stole his lyrics from China and the momhamed string quartets
Obviously not read the bible then- only watched the bbc religious programs presented by Jimmy saville
But you should have commented on the post first! Yahweh and his king Need you to be critical thinking, compassionate and relevant! Yes he is in charge but not too much salt🙏😎
As a Christian, I believe that this will lead to a new world order, when the new world order that the planet’s predators are using covid 19 to usher in arrives (which it fairly has) and is itself destroyed. The fake leftsists, and others thinking like them, who posit that the predator’s new world order will be just fine are mentally and spiritually ruined. Tim Anderson eh? I’m disappointed. (A site that I discovered through OG is Axis of Logic. I had to say goodbye to them beause of their embrace of the covid 19 pandemic hoax, if not covid 1984. It felt like saying goodye to family. But I don’t have time for self-identified progressives who embrace darkness.) This deviation from the path of honesty and rationality that is happening to so many progressives, or should I say self-identified progressives, has been going on for some time. There… Read more »
Government publishes SAGE minutes https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-publishes-sage-minutes The Government Office for Science has today (Friday 29 May) published the minutes from the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) meetings 1 to 34, up until the beginning of May. Published 29 May 2020 From: Government Office for Science and Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies SAGE minutes outline the scientific and health issues discussed and actions and advice agreed during each meeting of the group during the COVID-19 pandemic. It has been meeting regularly since 22 January when it convened for the first time and typically meets twice a week. SAGE is responsible for providing Cabinet Office Briefing Room (COBR) meetings with coherent, coordinated advice and to interpret complex or uncertain scientific evidence in non-technical language. The Government Chief Scientific Adviser (GCSA) and Chief Medical Officer (CMO) represent SAGE at COBR, and SAGE usually convenes in advance of COBR. Ministers receive advice from SAGE… Read more »
Now, if only there were some other story which could serve as a distraction. “A good day to bury bad news” sort of thing.
—
FYI:
Jo Moore, within an hour of the September 11 attacks, Moore sent an email to the press office of her department suggesting: “It’s now a very good day to get out anything we want to bury. Councillors’ expenses?” Although prior to the catastrophic collapse of the towers, the phrase “a good day to bury bad news” (not actually used by Moore) has since been used to refer to other instances of attempting to hide one item of news behind a more publicised issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_scandals_in_the_United_Kingdom
And the SAGE did not advise the government to introduce the “lockdown” measures as the minutes clearly show.
Catte,
Stuffing fingers in your ears like in that picture is not recommended, as anyone should know
“We focus instead on solid official data & expert testimony.”
Good, I look forward to that new regime being implemented now that you have obviously restructured your editorial board that was stopping that happening before.
(Don’t forget to put a warning below that picture – you know how impressionable some people are…)
Over at Marko Marjanovic’s ‘Anti-Empire’, an account of how Danish health authorities’ advice and recommendations based on COVID-19 being not particularly dangerous in that it “does not have either a usually serious course or a high mortality rate” was overruled by Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen, on the grounds that it was ‘not desired politically’. The emergency laws enacted March 12th by Frederiksen’s government stripped the National Health Service’s authority as a regulatory body and accorded it an ‘advisory’ role.
https://www.anti-empire.com/politicians-steamrolled-danish-health-authorities-to-enact-lockdown-against-expert-advice/
More and more information is emerging on how legitimate health authorities counseled against overblowing the mortal danger of COVID-19, but it was apparently too useful as a political instrument. This comes in concert with a very informative piece on why the stock market keeps going up even as millions lose their jobs and small businesses close forever. Lengthy, but well worth reading in its entirety.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/26/magazine/stock-market-coronavirus-pandemic.html
I saw that news elsewhere. Pretty awful stuff!
Below is a short extract from an article by Bruce Lerro in ‘Dissident Voice’ today. I find if I substitute ‘Covid Deniers’ for those ‘bystanders’ described in the article as being apathetic to Black Life protests, there is a remarkable similarity. Why are so many on this site so keen to deny that there is a large increase in deaths in some sectors of the population over the normal. And why are they so keen to get us all back to the norm of daily capitalist exploitation? I can sort of guess why – it’s a ‘follow the money’ thing. Here’s the extract: “Given the recent police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, the subsequent torching of police stations and the shutting down of bus lines, we will surely hear even greater howls from bystanders that they are being inconvenienced, that their rights are being infringed on, they had nothing… Read more »
Here speaks a tribal warrior, typical of his number. Reduce everything to a binary choice to accommodate an intellect limited to simple equations.
Maybe try a climate change denial angle next week.
And here speaks a person with no arguments – only personal abuse. Empty noise. Feeble.
Bog standard projection.
Surely, for your analogy to work, Covid-19 would have to be the work of an oppressed group in society as a protest against police brutality directed at that group. I don’t really see the parallel.
It’s only a loose analogy – I didn’t think of it as an exact match. If you can get the point as you obviously did despite lack of perfect fit, that’s what counts
STATS MUST BE SEEN PER CAPITA: We’re seeing so many comments, from stats in Italy to India, from Florida to George Floyd, that are “apples and oranges” comparisons. Geez, I thought of all sites, any reader here would do such stats per capita. Maybe there a few less blacks killed by cops here, total sum, but ten times as many whites per capita. To be comparable, the sum would be over 300, but it’s only 40+. Sheesh, do the Math! California and India have been neck and neck in (recorded/reported) Covid deaths, last I looked each had about 4000. But California, though huge, is 40 million, compared to India’s 1.3 BILLION. ERGO, IPSO FACTO: India has recorded only about 4 or 5% as many deaths as we have in the Golden State. And their standards of social distancing are non-existent. By force of veridical reality. In nearby Santa Ana, where… Read more »
Or maybe millenia and centuries of evolving ‘Mexicans’ have ‘built in’ immunity ? Maybe eating chillies is responsible? Maybe living and working in isolation from CV carriers is the simple vector? Etc What are the numbers of Mexican fatalities in New York for example? Are they a lot lower? Or average? Or what? And your BS argument of per capita is utter and moronic bullshit. Which has been shown months ago to be the morons goto to hide the numbers. The UK has less population then USA does that make UK the biggest number of ‘CV’ excess deaths? Worse than the US, which has the higher absolute numbers? Does the initial epidemic in Wuhan City , Hubei Province in China make sense by looking at the deaths in Wuhan divided by the billion total Chinese population instead of 10 million of the Wuhan city? If you are so certain of… Read more »
Per capita my arse? Very well. Sweden: 4,403 deaths. Italy: 33,575 deaths. Sweden has thus been nearly eight times more successful than Italy in preventing Covid deaths.
Twitter doesn’t permit a competing view from being submitted… The following article blocked:
https://vasaire.wordpress.com/2020/04/17/the-oracles-of-corona/
i do object to yet another karen meme re pic!
Except for the fact that Chris Whitty is England’s chief medical officer, not the UK’s, as listed on the UK Government’s website – ‘Professor Chris Whitty is Chief Medical Officer (CMO) for England’ – I applaud your stance. Fab, great, brilliant – on COVID facts. But as for the curious blurring… please do not say ‘there is no difference’ between England and the UK – asymmetric national devolution has made all the difference. It may have escaped your notice that the ‘UK Government’ has one central area of authority – England. Hence my concern over the Barnett Formula (declared unfair to England by its own creator), the ever-resurgent West Lothian Question (Foundation Hospitals for England, 2003), etc. Anyway, just to clarify – here’s the link to the so-called ‘UK’ Government’s website with details on Professor Whitty:
https://www.gov.uk/government/people/christopher-whitty
Chris Whitty is the Chief Medical Advisor to the United Kingdom government.
Well spotted. In fact he seems to wear about 7 “hats”, depending on how you might count them. It’s funny; he doesn’t look like a Superman. In fact he reminds me of Richard Attenborough’s version of John Christie (the Rillington Place murderer):
?w=400&ssl=1
Whitty
Christie
Nearly every single post of yours is a sectarian rant about devolution issues. You have nothing else to contribute but thinly disgusted Alf Garnett tropes tenuously connected to the original point.
Goverment controlled dissidents/ talmudic dissemblers showing their true colors. Sheeple showing theirs.
It’s all in the tone; with regard to email Tim or,depending on your social standing, actually it’s Timothy or even Mr Anderson please. Really it should begin “Tim will judge harshly” but they never say that, it’s aways an abstract (legal training?). Beautiful passive aggressive tone, gradually becoming more brusque but always well modulated, smug,self assured and condescending. I can’t decide if it’s AI or just another narcissist gazing in the looking glass, but it’s all over the Internet. They never reply,which suggests the former but the latter would probably not deign to either,or be able to. Sometimes I wonder if there are thousands of clones out there made in a secret government laboratory! Composites even, hordes of Davony Camonblairs, goodness knows they’re cheesy enough.
Do you mean Dr Tim Anderson?
The Tim Anderson of the email quoted in the article, strangely enough,who I don’t believe actually exists. Ihope the good doctor is well and unaffected and uninfected by my comment.
The phrase “veridical reality” is rather torturous. Reality is, full stop. Truth, however, is far more complex, as it invariably contains a value judgement(s). Perhaps I could suggest the word evident as a substitute? However, the point about the “lockdown” proponents being impervious to facts and preferring belief is well taken. In my judgement, this is a case of collective madness. I have explained this judgement previously here at OffGuardian. https://viewsandstories.blogspot.com/2020/05/coronavirus-case-of-collective-madness.html This judgement has been subjected to much disagreement by people seeking a rational explanation. But there is no rational explanation for cases of collective madness beyond the basic emotion that provides the motivation. The classic case of collective madness, Tulipomania, was a result of greed, people thinking they could make astronomical profits for virtually no effort in virtually no time. Looked at from the outside, anyone could see that Tulipomania was a case of collective madness, but at the… Read more »
That’s a very interesting viewpoint. I’ve been saying from the beginning of all this that the world has gone mad, without actually believing it myself. I have been looking for other explanations and none have completely satisfied me. So maybe it is a collective temporary madness.
Norway’s Prime Minister has now admitted that the lockdown was a mistake. She says she panicked.
Randolph Bourne observed, during WWI what we are observing today and later started writing about it. The “The State” is very revealing. While the world has changed in important respects, Bourne really described well the kind of collective madness that we are now observing. I’m surprised that, in all of this covid 1984 craziness, no one else has even mentioned Bourne. Here’s an excerpt in which Bourne talks about “amateur government agents,” which I’ve be referring to as self-appointed gatekeepers. (Think neighbors frowning at you for not wearing a mask, or citizens, newly fired, joining the ranks of contact tracers. There’s an amusing, and frightening, interview that Spiro Skouras does with Helen Buyinski in which she talks about her experience joining the contact tracing army, so she could report to us about it of course.) Appointed gatekeepers are paid and are usually aware of their role as gatekeepers. https://app.box.com/s/a5cth4evmzxocnjt907z970r3p9w9y0d… Read more »
When you have to burn Atlanta …
When you have already jumped the shark and crossed the Rubicon and led the charge into the valley of doom of a rabble roused BrexShitheaded mob on a false trail …
“We focus instead on solid official data ..”!!!
PLEASE explain the Excess Deaths from the OFFICIAL data.
—–
June is here and the final victory/defeat is at hand , either way the war which lasted a lot longer than bargained for will be over – looks like demob happiness or death or glory pops at these not as Intelligent as you?
Dungroanin, Deaths above the five yearly average only occurred this year after the “lockdown” measures were introduced. So here are a few ways in which those measures are likely to have effected mortality: 1. Elderly hospital patients were decanted into care homes to free up NHS capacity for younger people. 2. People were confined in their homes, denying them access to fresh air and sunshine and exercise. 3. The health service virtually shut down for everything except the virus, denying people access to diagnoses and treatment, even for cancers and heart conditions, etc. 4. The government and the media have wilfully terrorised people, resulting in fear and anxiety and failures to seek medical attention. 5. The “lockdown” has increased isolation and denied people access to mental health services. 6. The isolation has resulted in increased levels of domestic violence, child abuse and stress. Dungroanin, it was obvious to any rational… Read more »
Got any solid official data, Mr Hayes or just going to rely on being obvious?
😅😅😅
Dungroanin, I have no idea who you are quoting or what the relevance is. You asked for an explanation of the excess deaths, and I have cited six explanatory causes.
Dung, the village Covid Cult nutter. Not amenable to reason. I don’t know why I bothered to reply to his last post.
brewed up on sanitiser again – adhom deserves one back.
You can’t even reply the the right person
😂😂
Keep going for the max downvotes.
You’ll make Guinness Records yet.
Fame at last for you dung.
Have one yourself brewhead – seeing as that is the metric of this site and how you and your ‘gang’ have used Proyet to train the readership to down vote on sight.
Honestly – think you are being clever? The On-Groan jad to ban people because they went without the diwn button. The Mail does have it but allows only the cinnebts it likes to stay…
Full soectrum shitheadery is not really that hard to see.
Quite morinic actually
🤡🤡🤡
Who am I quoting ???????
🤣🤣🤣
Did you even bother to READ Cattes article?
It’s is a FACT i’m quoting Catte and Off-G.
Yet YOU chose to jump in and respond with your ‘obvious’ distractive attempt.
FAIL.
Dungroanin, I am not a mind reader. Yes, I did read the article. I chose to answer your question, which asked for an explanation for the excess deaths. I offered six potential explanatory causes.
By the way, you do understand that data is not explanation and explanations are not data? These are completely different phenomena.
Steve Hayes All you are is a mind reader. You didn’t bother to read the original article and see I quoted Off-G. Maybe you did and wanted to divert from it. I gave you a chance to re-address that. You have chosen to ignore it. Again. Excess Deaths are not merely data. They are a FACT. That needs explaining. Yet you deliberately use word play to mix up data/explanation in your little word salad ditty. Which is nonsense. Your made up propositions to explain the Excess Deaths are only just that – made up. You haven’t offered the researched scientific evidence to support these. You are just a pretend mind reader, who wouldn’t be able to pass a scientific test of your mind reading claims. A flim flam stage show clairvoyant in fact. A right Uri Gellar. Bending words not spoons. Well done – now put up the citation for… Read more »
Dungroanin, let me see if I can explain the difference between data and explanation for you. Take for example the global warming issue. The facts about the temperatures constitute the data. The hypothesis that the burning of fossil fuels, releasing CO2 into the atmosphere is the explanation.
I am going to assume that you understand and accept the above distinction and apply it to your call for an explanation of the excess deaths. The data are the number of deaths, in particular the number of deaths above the five yearly average. An explanation for the excess deaths would be a cause for the excess.
I hope this has clarified the matter.
Steve you start well … and instantly fail. Temperature record is data. CO2 levels are ALSO DATA. As is fossil fuel extraction over time. There is correlation between the three. Yet there is still argument over the correlation is the CAUSATION. So the definition of ‘explanation’ you tout is not valid and i do not accept your presumption of my opinion in it. Because it hasn’t been PROVED. Yet! Because we may see proof now that there has been a worldwide reduction in fossil fuel extraction and useage for a measurable period of time – we ought to notice a blip in the CO2 levels and we may even in earth scale time notice a linked variation in temperature change. That ought to provide proof and test the theories and determine which models are correct. As someone who has science as my chosen philosophy – the CV offers very many… Read more »
Dungroanin, I really do wonder about you. An explanation is an explanation regardless of whether or not it has been proved. I merely referred to the global warming issue to illustrate the difference between data and explanations. Yet, rather than acknowledge an acceptance of the meanings of the terms, you wonder off pursuing of red herring about whether or not the global warming hypothesis is correct or not. Whether it is correct or not is irrelevant to whether or not the hypothesis is an explanation. Frankly, if you cannot appreciate the difference between data and explanation, you are simply not competent to engage in this discussion.
Yet again the deliberate word salad game Steve. Your go to as soon as logic destroys your flim flam stage act.
I did disgree with your definition.
You introduced Global Warming and attempted to set your own parameters.
I logically ‘explained’ to you.
Yet you exclaim:
” if you cannot appreciate the difference between data and explanation, you are simply not competent..”
Let that be your own personally penned epitaph.
🤡🤡🤡
Any minor drop in fossil fuel usage will, I believe, be outweighed by the extra solar radiation reaching the Earth due to the lack of high altitude, high albedo, aircraft condensation trails, leading to warmer daytime temperatures and cooler night-time, without the blanketing effect of that high altitude cloud cover. We’ll soon see.
We’d like your data so that we can see if your explanations fit it. Is that too hard for you?
Jams, I have no idea what data you have in mind. Care to be more explicit?
Obviously you haven’t been reading this thread very closely. Try it from the top. The information you require is there in something like 12 pt Arial.
Jams, I don’t have any data. The data under discussion is from the Office for National Statistics, specifically the weekly death figures. Neither Dungroanin nor I dispute those figures, which we have discussed previously many times. So what data are you referring to?
Yeah, but Mr ‘Dungroanin’ asked for solid official data – do you have any?
PS Your ‘six explanatory causes’ have as many holes in them as a tramp’s sock.
Here is an analysis of government data from Scotland.
https://thatsenoughofthat.com/2020/05/17/scotlands-corona-virus-shame/
Unless you are over 75 or in a care home, you have an insignificant probability of dying from ‘covid19 related’ causes.
The virus is real. There have been excess deaths, limited to elderly people in poor health. The data points to the conclusion that this virus is dangerous to those with compromised immune systems.
Yes we already knew that from the Wuhan experience – so why state it like it’s something new? Even the fuckwit bozo said that your grabdparents and parents were going to snuff it! It is about MINIMISING fatalities and making sure these that need hospitalisation and care have it AVAILABLE. By MOST importantly reducing the spread through the wider population to these VULNERABLE. Whether the infected is asymptomatic, mildly symptomatic, badly symptomatic – all who will recover without needing hospitalisation – but will cause MANY others who will! There are some fuckers who never understood the idea of quarantine and used to try and jump ship to make it to the land so they could carry-on with their personal pleasures and plans – they would be shot by these on the ship or by watchers on land or drowned with sticks and stones if they tried to get out of… Read more »
This is getting silly. The facts in the case are the numbers of excess deaths. These facts may have any number of hypothesised explanations. Dungroanin asked Steve Hayes to provide such a hypothesis, and he did. D then attempted to move the goalposts by asking Steve to supply proof for the hypothesis, which was not part of the original requirement. Steve can’t provide proof and never claimed he could. He is not claiming the hypothetical explanations he supplied are the definitive answer. He was asked to supply a possible explanation, and did so. It would be much more productive for you and D to debate the merits of these potential explanations, rather than simply hectoring him for cast iron proofs he never claimed to have. The fact you both decline to do so is telling. No one knows at this point definitively what caused all the excess deaths. Steve is… Read more »
No1,
I did NOT as you claim ask Mr Hayes ‘to provide…a hypothesis’.
Why claim that I did?
What I did ask in my o/p was to addressed to the article and author, and I quote my query:
Mr Hayes jumped in with ‘hypotheses’ that he claimed were the definite ‘explanations’ – which I doubt Catte can claim are from ‘Solid Official Data’ – She is welcome to claim that and cite that quality source.
Steve Hayes does not know his explanation from his data as I have demonstrated above. As I have just demonstrated that you have also misinterpreted my o/p.
👌
OK – the merits of the potential explanations: 1. Elderly hospital patients were decanted into care homes to free up NHS capacity for younger people. Being decanted into a care home is an unlikely cause of death – these are “Care” homes – not hospices. The exception to this is when the patients are crowded together without proper distancing and all become infected with a disease. 2. People were confined in their homes, denying them access to fresh air and sunshine and exercise. I have never yet heard of anyone dying from lack of access to fresh air, sunshine and exercise – risible. 3. The health service virtually shut down for everything except the virus, denying people access to diagnoses and treatment, even for cancers and heart conditions, etc. I don’t believe that this is actually true – do you have figures? Even so, it’s unlikely that this would make… Read more »
“I have never yet heard of anyone dying from lack of access to fresh air, sunshine and exercise – risible.”
Aha. I spot a testable hypothesis. Confine yourself to a space just sufficient to contain your body that is permanently in the dark and with little ventilation. See what happens.
That’s probably the most witless reply I’ve ever read. OK, it was mildly amusing, but have you no plausible arguments?
Not meant to be amusing at all. What do you think would happen to somebody confined under those circumstances? Actually, we don’t need to guess as we can look at what happened with the so-called Black Hole of Calcutta:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta
The “Black Hole of Calcutta”! Really? And where exactly is this new version of the ‘Black Hole’ located? Tower of London maybe? This is school playground stuff – please get real.
“I’ve never heard of anyone dying from being ‘wilfully terrorised.’”
Yes, but the point was that this is making them reluctant to seek medical attention. And, yes, I have heard of people dying from lack of medical attention.
What? 20 / 30 / 40 or whatever the latest figure is, thousand people dying because every one of them was too afraid to seek medical attention? Pull the other one.
No, you are maliciously misrepresenting my argument, which is that it is perfectly possible for people to die from lack of medical attention.
It certainly is, but in the numbers required to explain the over-the-normal death toll? Please!
“haven’t actually seen them on the news.”
Well if you’re waiting for the news to tell you what to think then why bother coming here?
One of the reasons I come to this site is for it’s comprehensive coverage of the various sensational (or otherwise) murders that take place in the UK. what’s your excuse – a liking for empty rhetoric?
And furthermore, why would a report on certain deaths be a directive on ‘what to think’? That points up the fact that your own ‘thinking’ processes are somewhat lacking.
Because they don’t give you the full story and even what they give you is skewed.
Exactly. What did you think they were there for? Read some Chomsky.
To further elucidate on my reply to you, in case it’s not clear – of course the media are there for population management – but that does not mean that you can’t take some evidence from them – it’s just too much work to make up lies wholesale about absolutely everything.
Jams, I see you have despatched my hypothesised explanations to your own satisfaction. However, mere dismissal of possible explanations on the ground that your do not find them credible is frankly nothing more than a logical fallacy. So let’s look at the explanations a little more closely. The care home issue. The majority of the above the five yearly average deaths have occurred in this setting. That fact alone reveals your dismissal to be cavalier to say the least. Further it is widely recognised, both by supporters and opponents of the “lockdown” measures that NHS policy of removing elderly people from hospitals to care homes contributed to these deaths. Further, in the care homes, the residents were effectively locked down in their rooms, provided with inadequate care, denied access to family and medical attention. I would have thought that anyone could see that this would result in a higher… Read more »
Your ‘refutation’ of my ‘refutation’ only goes to show the lengths some people will go to to avoid admitting they are wrong.
None of the above even in combination, could possibly lead to what is now being reported as 50,00 deaths over the average. Many (all?) of your ‘reasons’ involve completely unfounded speculation as to numbers.
Your nutty conspiracy theory would have to involve the whole staff of the NHS, cleaners, drivers nurses and all, and similar organisations worldwide, as well as the usual suspects we do so well to suspect of their actual crimes.
OK Jams You obviously think I am an unreliable source, so here is the BMJ on this issue:
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1931
OK – there may be something there, but to play the subject in the same way as you have:
This is only one source, which also says:
“some of these “excess deaths” might be the result of under diagnosis”
and:
“Some of these deaths may not have occurred if people had got to hospital,” he said. “How many is unclear.”
So I am a nutty conspiracy theorist and so is the the BMJ. Are you even listening to yourself? Virtually everyone recognises that the lockdown measures have killed people. Even the government accepts this. So why are you attempting to deny it?
It’s the length a degree of lockdown that is the question. Indefinite, hard, lockdowns will financially ruin people, particularly the further down the income and wealth distribution you go. Indoors is where the virus is preferentially spread, outdoors you get Vitamin D. Lockdowns will ruin the economy, setting the scene for a decade, at least, of hyper-austerity and savage social sadism. The Chinese, the targets of this bio-warfare attack, went hard, early, then relaxed, wore masks (as ever) checked temperatures, did testing, followed contacts, and are doing relatively well, but we MUST NEVER say anything positive about the Yellow Peril, must we.
Richard, you have seriously changed your tune of late on this issue. Care to tell us why?
Karen,
I know of nobody who is either suffering from/with or died from/with the hoax ‘virus’, and nor does anyone else I know.
Screw your b*****it ‘official data’. It’s right in front of you! Look in the paper!
The 2019 death announcements in the local paper where I am ran at 3 pages, as they do each and every week all through Winter, and have been more or less the same since many decades. Summer, too – but only a handful of notices, as is usual.
Absolutely nothing different to see in this historic pattern for 2020, at all no ‘excess deaths’, nothing.
But of course, the Covid Cult member dismisses all this, with an angry snort – ‘We were just lucky, here. We follow the guidelines, you see.’
I heard that chemicals in the water supply were making people stupider – I believe that now.
Brew is not the shallow end of the gene pool-he’s sitting on the poll edge, frightened to death of water.
I suggest a couple of songs for you, DunG:
Roxette’s “Dressed For Excess”,
Iggy Pop’s “Here Comes Excess”
and a couple of movies:
“The Sweet Smell Of Excess”
“The Secret Of My Excess”.
Like it George! 👏😀
Well, it looks like we can’t rely on large segments of the Left to join us in the fight against the rolling out of the Fascist police state.
Because they’re on the other side actually embracing the stripping of civil liberties, blatant censorship, the so called ‘new normal’ and have happily smeared anyone opposing this authoritarianism as ‘anti vaxxers’ and ‘conspiracy nuts’.
Of course Anderson didn’t reply. You can’t even comment on his Facebook page without becoming a member.
In other words you’re screened first. Unlike the Facebook pages of Vanessa Beeley and John Steppling for example where you can freely comment.
Stick with those who have been the most trustworthy during this whole event.
The media have done a good job of making it seem that only right wingers believe in “conspiracies” but unfortunately many of the very people who say they don’t and never have trusted the media are regurgitating media vomit constantly
Exactly Koba. I know one person who lived in Cyprus during the Turkish invasion. Last year, he told me that he witnessed events himself in Cyprus that were completely lied about by the local media.
He gave me more recent examples also.
Said he would never believe the media ever again.
Yet he hasn’t left his house for 7 weeks, gets his groceries delivered and is terrified about the pandemic that he says will kill millions.
Other people I know are almost as bad, and most of them read The Guardian.
On the latest article, by Kit, it seems the CCZ trolls are out in force.
CCZ = corona cult zombies.
You’re right – and a lot of them are here! Why those supposedly on the left want to join in a right-wing extreme-libertarian conspiracy theory about an actual virus is beyond me.
Facts used to speak for themselves, now we have to stand up for them.
Some years ago rt.com reported on a certain research team’s discovery, that we live in a time where people are in denial of facts even when the facts are placed right before their eyes. While trying to find this (to no avail) I noted one website’s opening line, “Denial is a coping mechanism,” which then suggests that the denying intelligent need this mechaniam more than anybody.
Soejet, psychologists have looked at why 911 makes people put the blinkers on. When we hear information that conflicts with our world view we experience cognitive dissonance. This causes fear and anxiety. Our psychological defenses kick in to protect us from this anxiety resulting in denial.
Google is deleting videos and it is important to perpetuate the names of these psychologists. They include Richard Hopper Ph.D, Danielle Duperet Ph.D, William Woodward Ph.D, Robert Griffin, licensed psychologist, the theologian David Ray Griffin Ph.D, and the counsellors Dorothy Lorig MA, John Freedom MA and Frances Shure MA.
The psychology behind 9/11 – from the documentary, AE911Truth_Experts_Speak_Out (full documentary here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bskzMTMe7_g )
Thank you moneycircus, this video was most informative
Facts are sacred. This saying becomes more meaningful to me by the day. The only way through a disagreement – to the extent there is a way through – is by humbly following the facts. Of course interpretation plays an important, if not pivotal, role, and subjectivity is foundational to the process, but without the best facts you can muster, there is often no hope of finding a way through to agreement. And yet, sufficiently bewitched, we humans are capable of not seeing what is right in front of our noses. I once watched someone hypnotised into believing the onion he ate was an apple. No matter how many facts we might have presented him with, the man would have insisted it was an apple. Similarly, anorexics insist they are overweight, often until they die of malnourishment. No facts will convince them they are horribly skinny. These two facts about… Read more »
It IS witchery. Just organized, technologized, mass produced and so on. One name is advertising, another brain-washing, another behavioral engineering, another mind control.
Humble prayer breaks many a spell, but it’s not infinitely hard, anyway.
Just say no.
This is so very true. As the Covid situation tends to dominate conversation, speaking to some long time friends has become a minefield, since we are so very far apart on this. Far too many times a day, I find myself pondering how so many (otherwise smart and reasonable) people have fallen so far into the swirl of fear and irrationality. This includes an incredibly bright friend who evidently gets up at 6am in order to do his daily exercise safe in the knowledge that he’s very unlikely to come close to another human being who could infect him. I realise this daily toil is not good for me and has no positive purpose, but its a difficult train of thought to avoid. What on earth has happened to everyone? I agree with your point about media-induced witchery. This seems to be combined with an unwillingness of intelligent people to… Read more »
The divisions are deep, and concern me greatly as they have divided me from people I love. I try to look to discern my contribution to the problem but keep coming back to how the data does not support the lockdown, and so the division remains. My own brother, for example, flatly refuses to look at the data, no matter its source. I had no idea he was capable of such stubborn recalcitrance. And these rifts are cause for sadness, and concern for the future: how do we heal from this?
Around 2004 the ‘In Plane Site’ movie was shared round the office where I was working. It repeatedly showed the plane melting into the WTC, but the commentary fixed your attention on some military bulges on the belly of the plane – ie telling you the plane was real. This was the drilling office of an oil company, engineers and supervisors working with steel structures, but nobody I can recall (inc me) questioned it on the basis of Newton’s Laws. My feeling was the film was unconvincing and I left it. I think that was also because the shock of 9/11 on the day (I was offshore on an oil rig bringing in a live well) had firmly implanted the rather poorly done cgi illusion as ‘veridical’.
The media and Govts are not objective.
We could go either way.
Fear= further into tyranny,ignorance and State fascism( w potential 4 more false flag ops to divide playing race card) .
Or Love= and we could see the end of bankster authoritarian fascists and the police state.
Again, as there is no “new deadly disease” or even any proof of a new disease with the exact same symptoms of common cold/ influenza first, shouldn’t we deal with that FACT.
Off-Guardian was too early with labeling Covid19 as “innocent” while Moon of Alabama went overboard too early too with supporting mad restrictions. It took time to find out that Covid19 is actually attacking the blood vessel wall linings with its ACE2 look alike hooks. Lung specialist Dr. Seheult finished 75 Medcram Youtube Covid19 research videos and has the best and explanation. Here is what he himself takes daily to boost his own immune system while working with Corona patients in L.A. HCQ solo nowhere to be seen. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM2A2xNLWR4 Not protecting the elderly care homes was a big mistake in most of the West and upped the death statistics by > 50%. I don’t believe Wuhan or these lockdowns were planned; they are just the moves of central bureaucrats with much more power than science. It is the natural reflex of any Establishment. All in all a good Global exercise… Read more »
Rubbish. The Covid-19 virus was assumed to be dangerous by western governments before anybody in the west had any data regarding the virus. The starting point was that it was dangerous because China overreacted.
The fact that China would not allow western observers in to see what was happening should have been a huge red flag, but the west was persuaded it was bad because the CCP released a few stories about the disappearing whistle-blowing doctors.
There are new viruses every day, so why was this one assumed to be dangerous and the others assumed to be innocent. This virus was born guilty, but the court was China which is notoriously dishonest about pretty much everything.
So Off-Guardian = western governments???
Off-Guardian likes present China!
“Off-Guardian likes present China!” – how did you come to that conclusion?
What does it mean?
Off-Guardian didn’t label Covid19 as innocent because from an Off-Guardian perspective (from what I read here) the virus was considered innocent until proven guilty. The British government assumed the virus was guilty until proven innocent.
My point is that the British government treats all the other viruses as innocent until proven guilty but treated Covid19 as if it was Julian Assange.
Read the next Off-Guardian “Op-Ed”:
https://off-guardian.org/2020/05/31/its-all-bullsht-3-leaks-that-sink-the-covid-narrative/
10/20 even in hindsight.
Racist, Sinophobic, lying, as usual, protected as usual. The Chinese alerted the WHO on 31 December, the US CDC of 2 January. They shared the genome with the world in the middle of January. What psychological rewards do you gain from repeated, pathological, lying?
You upset that I have not yet joined your white-man-bad, yellow-man-good hate group. Surprised you aren’t rioting with your fellow Antifa fascists. As this article from the NYT (I thought this would be acceptable to an anti-white racist such as yourself) shows, the Chinese were not cooperating even in Feb … https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/health/cdc-coronavirus-china.html
You quote the fucking New York Times as an honest source? That’s real chutzpah! I’m not in any way ‘anti-White’ whatever ‘White’ is, not like your plain, racist, mendacious loathing of the Yellow Devils when they cease groveling at your White, Western, Judeo-Christian feet. I judge everyone as individuals, on the basis of evidence and my own opinions and prejudices, which is why I loathe your type. Enjoy your race war-you won’t win. Nobody will.
So cretin, let me explain. I pay tax to your beloved CCP, they are the government here in China. I have no say in how the country is run, but I still have to pay tax. In return for paying tax, I will voice my opinion, even to delusional outsiders like you who have some bizarre love affair with China. I live here because I have children who are half Chinese, half British. I know you think I have waged war on my children, but that is because you are a cretin.
You must like cartoons
FOOLISH APPARATCHIKS The elderly and those with compromised immune systems required social distancing, but lockdowns were not necessary for the rest of the population. Lockdowns bankrupted most small businesses and created massive unemployment. Closing schools was another disaster. Having millions of young people indefinitely idle and unemployed is a recipe for disaster. We’re seeing this catastrophe being played out right now in demonstrations throughout the US. Violent protests triggered by a video showing a sociopathic cop and three other sadistic police officers murdering an unarmed black man over a $20.00 forgery. Protests which could’ve been avoided if these four killers were immediately charged with murder. But instead, foolish apparatchiks hesitant to do the “right thing” caused an explosion releasing pent up rage over much more than just the horrific death of George Floyd. The sight of Floyd’s senseless murder initially unleashed mass furor, but this outrage by the young is… Read more »
“alleged” $20 forgery ….
That’s almost extraneous–as soon as those cops were called Floyd was a dead man.
Hey, a new way to off someone one does not like. Accuse them of trying to pass off a bad $20 bill and call in the local gestapo to have them epsteined. What will they think up next.
One can use this too on anyone, one does not like, who is not wearing the official “YOU WILL ALL DIE” FAUCI BLACK PLAGUE MASK or is unable to prove that they have gotten the Billy Eugenics Euthanasia Death Shot.
They are not nitwits, they know what they must do, that is why they are in their positions in the first place. Any politician doing the “right” things gets thrown out very early as a mistake.
If they’re not nitwits, then they must be suicidal……..
Or they are looking forward to reaping the gains, gains like the speaking engagements and/or directorships paid to past nitwit politicians: Blair, Clinton, Obama etc.
Steven Jackson was a good friend of Floyd. Jackson was not an NBA superstar like LeBron, but widely beloved and a legendary career. Gavin Newsom declared a Stephen Jackson DAy in SF, before he became California Governor. “Jack” is heartbroken.
Floyd had li.st his job to Covid..
No foolishness there at all. It’s all deliberate and long planned. Agenda 21 must happen and a lot more chaos is on its way to soften us up.
Police departments have been allowed to “get away with murder,” that’s why Chauvin brazenly believed he could kill Floyd. Local corrupt incompetent politicians have turned a blind eye to police violence. On the national level greedy elites would rather implement social repression than advance economic reforms and social justice.
Idiot Biden will not be able to resolve any of these issues. Social problems will escalate until structural reforms occur. If that doesn’t happen, violence will be unleashed to end social unrest.
I don’t mean to pry but are you the talking pudding so often met in myth and folk legend? Forgive me, the lockdown taking it’s toll. I can’t even contact my familiar, the flying pullover and the bungalow of doom is in hot pursuit. Help!
You sound a bit annoyed that I didn’t give credence to your theory regarding Agenda 21.
No not at all, isn’t Charlotte Russe a pudding? I was just playing with words, it’s the best thing to do with them. Sorry to cause any offence.
A Charlotte Russe is not a pudding it’s a cake that comes from the eighteenth century. The cake has layers of lady fingers, Bavarian cream and fruit.
The ‘authorities’ have forgotten, or never learned, the Ancient Roman rule that it takes both Bread AND Circuses to control the proletariat.
With the nonsensical ‘lockdown’ they have now left out the necessary ‘Circuses’ – theatre, football, gambling, pubs, cinema…
The s**t will hit the fan.
99% of the protestors are young and many are white. The provocateurs and crooks come out at night to smash windows and steal designer shoes……
In Gladiator there is that scene where loaves of bread are quite literally thrown to the crowd at the gladiatorial games. Nobody was social distancing of course…
Vernon seems to know a thing or two about it:
When TV is your teacher, and the lesson is always ‘what to think’ and never ‘how to think’, ignorance blossoms. Apparently tim and Moon are at the top of the class.
Finally, an accurate disgnosis of what ails us: TV. It is within that very boob tube that covid veridically lurks.
– along with what? 50-60-70% of British, American, Canadian, etc populations ….
Interesting that in this MSM mouthpiece, USNews, we have this comment: For most people, the new coronavirus causes mild or moderate symptoms, such as fever and cough that clear up in two to three weeks. For some, especially older adults and people with existing health problems, it can cause more severe illness, including pneumonia and death. https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2020-05-07/governor-softens-order-over-jailed-texas-hair-salon-owner Then today, this bright idea for restaurant dining: https://www.zerohedge.com/health/covid-bubbles-could-be-future-restaurant-dining Here, you get inside your personal “bubble” at your chair, with companions in their bubbles. There is, however, an open lower space with this bubble that could be 24-30″. That’s room enough to shovel in your food, but how about them covid-19 particles or whatever they are? It’s inconsistencies like these that suggest science has nothing to do with what’s going on. Ceremony, a ritual, is clung to. It’s a feel-good thing. Then add on how it offers opportunities of various sorts, such as… Read more »
>It’s inconsistencies like these that suggest science has nothing to do with what’s going on. Ceremony, a ritual, is clung to. It’s a feel-good thing.
I disagree: it’s conditioning, as with TSA security-theatre in airports, but ratcheted up to the
next level (for now). What will you *not* accept, is the pertinent question..
that’s good, you keep thinking December …. the race’ll be over when you get there :<))
Virus Propaganda & the One World Lockdown
https://onfireforgod.today/virus-propaganda/
OK, Karen!
Brilliant video! The world has gone completely bonkers.
“Gives her otherwise meaningless existence a sliver of self importance’. Karen. Exactly.
You’ll see, Gezzah, that we’re heading into a phase where the original ostensible reason for all this will be completely forgotten and what will remain is the imperative to enforce the madness. And the authorities are mobilising a force of Karens for that.
I think we’re almost at that point now Reg. And obviously it’s not just Karen’s, but a few Kens as well.
All this after what, 12 weeks is all about a virus?? Of course not. We all knew that ages ago.
Groupthink every hour of every day of every week. Or if you like, 2 mins of hate. That’s what it’s really about.
Sorry about upsetting your sleep last night. No more vomit emoji’s!
You’re right tho, Madonna sitting in her bath was truly a low point.
Ha ha, no worries. I slept like a tabby cat by a winter fire.
HOLD on did not the video podcaster who made this hoprseshit tell you to go out and vote to endorse a politically party who would never do this yet thickos later on then laugh when he show you videos of the crime they done.
even worse Karen CAN Kqeen means serpent deceiver snake
iof you want to get deep as clearly YOU so informed in etymology linguist understanding The serpent in genesis 3:1 was not a snake. The Hebrew word under here is NAHASH The Navajo Indians still use this word today, it is pronounced NAH-GAH-OSHEE and means: “witch doctor; guru; voodoo; sorcerer.” That’s what Cain CAN was.
PJW capl clap the special branch psyop and the edcuated voting window lickers want more
We could use some gender analysis in this Covid event. Apart from early reports that men were more vulnerable to flu-variant-Covid-19 I haven’t seen any. Academic studies have shown women more ready to embrace authoritarianism yet superficially it seems authoritarian governments tend to be male and to force women into traditional roles. Florence Denmark – women might possess the “authoritarian” trait of ethnocentricism to a greater degree than men and might therefore exhibit and find approval for more authoritarian behavior in leadership roles than men do. Analysis of men and women non-leaders’ descriptions of leaders’ actual and ideal behavior fails to support this hypothesis. In general, the opposite is true. Men leaders exhibit and find approval for more authoritarian behavior than women, especially in using power to keep individual members in conformity with group norms and in controlling group goals. Women leaders exceed men in authoritarian behavior only in the… Read more »
always get special branch to inform the simpletons and window liickers that they video podcaster is IN the know yet the podcaster is special branch what fucking idiots
run out and vote ow people weho watch video run by government operative
donate now
LOL!
Many alternative authors have explained in the past that the “journalists” at the MSM rags, such as the Guardian, are not being pressured into writing biased articles, instead they were employed because they naturally produce biased articles: the bias is a part of who they are, it is not forced. The MoA blogger is reportedly an ex intelligence person: I don’t know what the requirements are for an intelligence person, but in my view the chances of him being a true rebel are very slim. One can see traits in the way he behaves that match what I would image are common threads in intelligence: an expectation that in an emergency you do not question authority but just toe the line, an authoritarian approach to other points of view, encouraging a cliquish environment between commenters, a left wing bias that sees bigger government as the solution to the world’s woes.… Read more »
“…blogger is reportedly an ex intelligence person: I don’t know what the requirements are for an intelligence person, but in my view the chances of him being a true rebel are very slim.”
There, you have uttered precisely my “j’accuse” and charges against Snowden et al. And my reason in essence for why I don’t buy that they are veridically real.
90% of youtubers are paid by government via patroen or donations
they usually call themselves INDEPENDENT yet endorse politician regurgitated what other say that day week ione ahs to be seriously hyposiosed to not see it
Neil Saunders did the idiots guide for people to see where and who they are
https://neilsandersmindcontrol.com/index.php/neils-blog/cambridge-analytica-and-the-creation-of-right-wing-media
The old slaves were killed for reading. The new slaves won’t research to stay alive.
Neil Saunders did fine, but you with your 90% that you pulled out of a hat are just an idiot.
Here is a link to Craig Murray’s 9/11 thread, near to 12,000 posts about freefall building collapse. His moderator at the time, Clark, still posts there, played a pivotal role in ensuring this 12,000 comment 9/11 disinfofest is the absolute pile of soiled toilet rolls which it turned out to be.
Clark is the quintessential disinfo shill, squealing “conspiracy theorist” at anyone who challenges his fraudulent agenda. Total scumbag. Funnily enough, you only need to read the thread nearest the top to see this utter piece of slime in action. I did a quick Google search for the thread and it came up with this beauty on page 133 to expose this snake for what he is. Craig Murray employed this man. Do the maths.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/01/the_911_post/comment-page-133/
Unhappily, there is always a convenient useful idiot. Alternatively, as far as I can tell, this site is saturated with MI5 drones, and you are one. Divide and conquer – if the drones are stupid enough.
Divide and conquer indeed Jams. Unfortunately, many on here jump at the chance to be divided, completely oblivious to the fact that they are being played by shills.
You obviously have very little knowledge of who Craig Murray is, or what he has done. I suggest you put your balls on the line in the same way as he has in the past before you make these puerile assumptions.
Are you saying that he didn’t used to be an ambassador? Then why does he say he state that he was an ambassador on his website?
How did you extract that question from what I said? Lots of posters here seem to be feeble-minded.
It is a honour to have your immense intellect lead us through these difficult times, we are obviously not worthy and your arguments are like lightening from Zeus himself, revealing the path ahead. Thank you oh great one. I’m sure Craig Murray is at this very moment worshiping at your altar.
Another non-reply – just more mindless abuse. Is that really the best you can come up with?
Many alternative news sites have become corrupted by the very things they claim to rail against: Avarice and self interest.
Are the manipulators and parasites who rule us so fucking devious that they anticipated this?
Are the alternative media who have cowered to the groupthink too weak to speak out?
Keep up the war of logic and common sense folks.
We CAN turn the tide.
What part of what MOA said is true?
If Moon of Alabama and Tim Anderson hold you at arm’s length, maybe you’ve gone off the deep end. I started following you when you started this website because Richard Drayton, a guy I really respect, linked to you. That was five years ago. He never linked to you again. And that is before you began running the 9/11 Truther stuff, which probably alienated a whole new group of one-time supporters. That wasn’t enough. When the pandemic hit, you began posting the same talking points as Fox News. In any case, I urge you to continue on your current path. It will undermine anything that you post about Syria.
No doubt, those “alienated” will be happy to return to those alt sites which have been assimilated into the borg.
And…
I think you will find, that the subset of those who are aware of Syria but are not ” 9/11 truthers” will be vanishing small.
Louis, why do you waste your valuable wizz dome on us, wouldn’t you be happier where you’d be appreciated, somewhere like the Daily Chimp?
Guessing Louis N. Proyect™ is well-compensated for the tripe he posts.
30 Pieces of Silver?
I read in the Bible recently, that Judas attempted to hang himself, but ended up falling from the tree and disemboweling Himself in the process.
You make a lot of sense.
My brain is melting. Cats blink dog farts
I belch zebra tongue or I am humus pyramid’s with dancing elbow, blind rock
So how has your 5 years following this site been?
More self-emasculation, and self humiliation from a long bankrupt pseudo-Marxist intellectual prostitute peddling absurdities including conspiracy theories about OFFG while fishing for provocation with his twisted logic that instantly self destructs as LNP is grossly indicting himself as a fear mongering liar and elite’s influence peddler of “Mocking Bird” style . The MoA and others who follow closely incoherent COVID narratives concocted by governments, CNN or other MSM fake news factories as well as blindly believe Dr. Mengele type criminals running global medical authorities, are simply brainwashed or are engaged in psychological warfare. LNP and MoA in fact blatantly aligned themselves with murderous legacy of Nazism and their murderous policies regarding social hygiene (including effective eugenics practiced in elderly homes today where 50 to 80% of all COVID patients are murdered under guise of phony COVID emergency) and policies regarding extremely deadly, disproportionate Nazis dealings with more dangerous than COVID… Read more »
If I may humbly say, your first 2 paragraphs were absolutely brilliant.
The rest of your comment was brilliant.
You will have noticed that Proyect never replies. He just dumps his shit here and then doesn’t respond. Even to lucid replies like yours.
He’s the classic definition of a troll.
“Live from the parking lot of the Concord Motor Lodge on the shores of beautiful Kiamesha Lake, NY it’s Mr. Borscht Belt himself Louis Alter Kocker, losing what mind he had.”
Take a hike.
“Regime-change Louie” lecturing OffGuardian on Syria reporting! Wow! Now that takes the cake Louie! If nothing else you do manage to induce some grins, unintentional though they may be.
By the way Louie – if I look up and notice that “the sky is blue,” and Vladimir looks up and notices that “the sky is blue” – does that render me a “Putin Puppet” in that little space between your ears?
Have you rejected all logic and common sense to enable a comfortable retirement Louis?
Try thinking outside the confines of control.
Abandon your ego for a while.
Loo, you are a repellant thing. Why don’t you distance yourself from us? We’re afraid of what you carry. We won’t catch it but it makes us heave and thow up. Be considerate.
…Richard Drayton, a guy I really respect…
That part made me smile. No one here gives a fuck about whether or not you respect someone, Louis. ;o)
Is the bizarre belief that many on the Left seem to have developed that the lockdown is going to bring about revolution or some other form of benign new world order You appear to be an armchair communists who hopes that the rise of China will bring about an egalitarian world. Well, let me intervene in your fantasy: the world is made up of people and people have “failings”, and the people with the worst “failings” tend to rise to the top of society by doing things that the better people would never do. When Xi rose to the top he ran an anti-corruption campaign that assassinated a lot of the middle manager types who were supporters of his enemies. The corruption continued, but now the recipients were Xi’s cadre so their loyalty was now reinforced. I doubt you would consider assassinating your enemies, but to some these things come… Read more »
*Doesn’t respond to any comments in his thread. Posts new thread.*
Are you trying to enter the Guinness Book of Records for the most downvotes ever achieved on a website?
I think you are, so I did.
Happy to help.
Tom Feeley has not been too well over the last 3 weeks – he probably got it too..I did, it wasn’t that bad..at least most of us old people are still alive, and gradually getting our fitness back One of my favourite Americans in the world. What a nice man. Tom Feeley is Back in The Saddle Again ” Note From Tom I want to express my gratitude to those of you who have been kind enough to enquire about my health and for your good wished for my recovery. It has been a difficult 3 weeks, but I am happy to report that I am back at my desk and more inspired more than ever to fight against the lies, propaganda and horror that we laughingly call civilization. I will need a little time to catch up on recent events and I sure that within a few days I… Read more »
He’s had health problems for quite awhile, I’m surprised you went to covid-19, he didn’t mention it.
What’s really disappointing is when I went to his Twitter page last week and saw that they banned him. He was probably telling the truth again.
His site introduced me to Caitlin Johnstone, Moon of Alabama(B.C.), and a few others. One of the few consistently great sites on the Internet:)
“Caitlin Johnstone”
Ah, yes. The ‘pro-choice’ hypocrite.
Look for consistency, for there lies the truth.
What do you mean by “pro-choice hypocrite”, breweriana?
Rights.
What is this? A puzzle? Can’t you explain what you mean?
And what about Corbyn? His buy in to the madness has made me question my entire mind….
I think the blindness of so many can be partly attributed to how far down the spiritual awakening path they are; even the most enlightened political minds may not be willing or able to look within and realise all change, all independence of mind and soul, truly lies there.
I’ve always wondered how such admirable genuine political activists maintain their energy to fight the fight over so many years – as I’ve found the more I have looked within the more I realise that it doesn’t matter what is said, how compelling the truth of the matter is – it will fall on deaf ears until the listener – individually or at society level – looks within. And that can only come from within.
If Corbyn questioned the narrative he would be mauled, chewed up and spat out, never to work again in any capacity.
Who, then, is allowed to speak truth? What a dark time we’re in, with the Few creating and benefiting from it yet again..
That is ALREADY guaranteed. The Jewish Board of Deputies would absolutely insist.
He’s trying to be relevant.
After his brother getting arrested. I don’t think he’s got the balls to actually speak his mind.
He proved THAT during the ‘antisemitism’ campaign.
Corbyn was more systematically attacked than any other UK politician I have seen in recent years – Johnson is starting to get flak but he is in office and is clearly incapable but he was also clearly the establishment choice rather than Corbyn so they will stick with Johnson a while yet. Corbyn knows better than to contradict official narratives now.
You’ve got to laugh. Johnson looks seriously out of his depth. He thought his allegedly superior genes and a misspent youth at Eton were enough to carry him through life. The dishevelled, inbred buffoon has come up against something so monstrously powerful that he has no idea how to react. The fucker just has to do what he is told. He is not in charge.
What about Starmer? His putsch to retake Labour for NuLabInc redux.
The Labour members had their brains turned to mush – they chose SIR KEIR a London metrosexual man over the first ever female leader a true Salford lass & lawyer.
Well they were gaslighted so effectively they even forgot the NHS that Corbyn made central and went on about.
The final straw is that of Bercow and Murphy being denied the peerages that would bring some sense into the Lords.
Sir ‘Jeeves’ Starmer (copyright Steve Bell) is the humble man servant of the toffs to clear up their mess and protect the establishment.
Who exactly were the members who voted for Keeves? Are they for real?
Hahahaha you’re still stuck in the “save us Labour Party” mode hahahahahahahahahaha
Just want to share with readers here.. I’m working on a series about deaths in LTC
It encompasses Canada and the UK, so far. As well as Italy
shocking similarities in policy
Heading to the US
You can find and read the first three parts
here,
here
and here
My intention is to use the court of public opinion to up the pressure on our respective government for their malfeasance
Curfews declared in cities across US
Los Angeles, Philadelphia and Atlanta have all just announced curfews.
They are not telling you the half of what’s going on at the moment.
Rense is providing links to many stories from the troubles in the US.
You know it’s something when the virus gets driven off the front page and the TV screens that it has dominated for months.
What desides everything is raw power, and by that, economic power, and corruption of our Gov, and thats what happened with this scamdemic, the highjacking of everything, incl peoples mind. And then we have the side effects regarding the media world we have, and in that I am not even surpriced, maybe I am becomed old and cynical, but when thats said, some sites remain, and I dont care that much about whom they initially where or claimed to be, eventually they all reveils them self when the SHTF, and from then on, they will never be able to convince me about their so called independence, and I have more, as said before respect for genuine assh…. than pretenders, at least we know where the aholes stand, thats eventually the real deal, turncoats I wll always despice, in that I am without mercy, once an turncoat, always a turncoat. Yeah,… Read more »
The person that I was 15 years ago would probably have believed the covid nonsense.
If That personage of me from 15 years previous met the current now me, then the younger me would consider my ideas to be insane. The awakening process is akin to a wedge that slowly widens in the mind. Many of us forget how long this has taken.
I have found virtually all scientific shibboleths are BS, the News is virtually all fake, the worst criminals and murderers wear suits.
Is it not the truth that:
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities”
You got that right
NAZI PROPAGANDA RADIO (NPR)
PART OF THE COCAINE IMPORTERS OF AMERICA (CIA) RADIO NETWORK
https://imgur.com/r/conspiracy/Q3Qzp
STREAMING TO THE BRAIN DEAD OF THE USA
24 HOURS OF NON STOP CIA PAP, 7 DAYS A WEEK, 52 WEEKS PER YEAR
https://memegenerator.net/instance/81095691/cnn-liar-yes-i-take-money-from-the-cia-to-spread-propaganda-so-what
Oh sure, we all know where all our local drug dealers are but, if you owe the goverment $10 in taxes, they will find you even if you are in the middle of the Amazon Jungle.
1) Bernhard from Moon of Alabama (MoA) not only brutally censors comments that don’t follow his intentions (my comment, in which I criticised the WHO for massively cheating when comparing the death rate of Flu with that of Covid-18). He also doesn’t understand (or has an agenda not to understand) what “flattening the curve” means. At the beginning of this Covid-19 thing it was on MoA where I read this term “flattening the curve” for the first time. And for days MoA hammered it into the heads of his readers how important this “flattening the curve” was. This was also absolute the mainstream and the policy of all governments of countries, which than ordered this lock-down. But then the governments, the MSM and MoA suddenly – without telling or even discussing it – turned away from this “flattening the curve” strategy. Suddenly the new strategy was ‘preventing any infections with… Read more »
Sorry, correction: “…with that of Covid-19)”
You are right. MoA follows official scripted MSM narratives to this day (with exception of blaming China), changing narratives one step ahead of hard data that repudiate previous narratives. What is worse that current insane narrative of complete eradication of SC2 virus (while no virus was ever eradicated worldwide) serves no medically efficacious purpose but follows direct objectives and interests of big Pharma vaccines making for them long term hundreds of billions of dollars while impose useless, pointless from medical point of view draconian policies and measures of social surveillance and control. The psychological warfare were are witnessing today is exactly how it was done to justify ruling elite’s lies and MSM conspiracy theories before, during and after US Iraq invasion in 2003. All that changed at MoA after January 25, 2020 when still sane b wrote following. The novel coronavirus [COVID] seems to be quite usual in that it… Read more »
The WSWS are also into the Floyd protests and it probably makes them think of storming the Winter Palace – the fact that rallies are an obvious breach of social distancing does not seem to factor in at all. The governor of Minnesota has tried to calm things down by saying for God’s sake think of the virus.
As has been seen elsewhere, if people are angry or desperate enough they will come out, virus be damned.
It is a shame about Moon of Alabama, although I never put much stock in the site to begin with.
Moon of Alabama is/was good on some points. Unfortunately “little critters” scare them. They should listen to George Carlin and “grow a pair.”
MOA has been superb on some issues but he is (we are credibly informed) ex-Intelligence Services (which is significant) and German (which isn’t). From my limited experience of observing activists who are ex-Intelligence or ex-Military or ex-Police, they nearly always reveal themselves eventually to be covert statists. They are people placed within the anti-establishment ‘conspiracy-theorist’ communities to lead them astray and to betray them at the crucial moment. The most obvious (fairly) recent example of the ilk is Ken O’Keefe. He was ex-US Marines. I believe he was an anti-authoritarian rebel who gave his commanders lots of trouble and they handed him over to Military Intelligence to see if they could find some use for him. O’Keefe was sincere in his own way. he appeared to be genuinely outraged by tyranny and injustice … However, when push came to shove he completely betrayed those closest to him, people who obviously… Read more »
“[Ken O’Keefe] …made some insulting anti-Zionist videos…”
Oops. Your mask slipped there a tad.
I’ll take O’Keefe’s version of events over Max Igan’s any day. You’ve quoted the latter’s account of their falling out almost word for word, by the way. Perhaps you’d also like to quote Igan on his recent revelation that the earth is flat, recanted a day or so later with the claim that inter dimensional forces were tampering with his mind. Or something.
I knew O’Keefe. Met him many times. He tried to be honest, in my opinion, but was “owned” and, when pushed, had to go along with the deal with the devil he had made in the first place.
By the way, what ‘mask slipped’, you idiot?
Igan did say something he didn’t understand attacked his mind. He made one video immediately after the experience, then disowned and apologised for everything he had said during it, saying something had attacked his mind.
It is known that the military can use microwaves to make a person “hear voices”. It is not beyond belief that Igan would come under attack in this way.
Whatever about the truth of everything he says, Igan is a TRANSPARENTLY honest individual (would that the same was obvious about yourself).
ok, Max.
Your pro-zionist mask, you idiot.
I knew three different James O’Donnells. One was brother of Gus who ended up running the Civil Service, Another was first violin in our school orchestra, Ericsson engineer, alcoholic, recovered alcoholic, a decent fellow now living in Ireland… and the last one a work colleague who ended up managing the finances of the governing Sheik in one of the Gulf States. Wondering if you are yet another one of the same name but a more attenuated specimen of the O’Donnell ilk. I approved of O’Keefe’s anti-Zionist videos, you idiot. I also liked the man. I was just trying to describe the conflict that ruined him, to lay out general observations regarding those who are appointed to sink the side they (maybe even genuinely) support. I don’t know for sure (not being one to leap to crass judgments like your good self) but MOA looks like he might be… Read more »
Your comment was “made some insulting anti-Zionist videos” – the implication being that you found the videos insulting. If you intended something different you should perhaps make yourself clearer. “You idiot” – as you would say.
If I reported that someone insulted Jams O’Donnell by calling him a “dim wanker” the use of the word “insulted” would not mean I necessarily disagreed with sentiment expressed by the person who made the comment.
Sorry, I understand that sentence might be a bit difficult for you to interpret.
Ahh, now you’re showing yourself – you’re just an insecure idiot who has run out of logical sentences and has to resort to insults. Massive fail.
In case you still don’t get it. If a man goes into ISRAEL and abuses this racist and self-obsessed country mightily by insulting Israel’s treatment of Palestinians,Zionism and Talmudic teachings with absolute abandon (as O’Keefe did), is there not a high probability that the reason O’Keefe could pull off such a stunt INSIDE ISRAEL is because the Americans told the Israeli immigration authority that O’Keefe was AN INTELLIGENCE ASSET (i.e. “our” boy)?
Does that make sense to you?
Does recognising that make someone a Zionist?
Look – as long as you don’t support the Israeli Government and the whole zionist project wherever and however it shows it face, I’m happy.
Sorry I insulted you back now. why didn’t you say that in the first place. I’ve been banned all over the place for writing about Israel.
OK keep up the good work
Well spotted – I missed the bit about “anti-zionist videos”. Mask definitely slipped. Sharp eyes proves there possibly is a ‘god’ 🙂
You know the saying…there is no such thing as ex-CIA. These Council of Foreign Relations scum have an unlimited amount of cash to corrupt or seed hundreds of “subversive” websites.
Yes. James Angleton revealed the mindset and method to Congress in 1975, when they held five years of inquiries as to what the flock CIA was doing: “We want our adversaries to find themselves in a ‘Wilderness of Mirrors’.”
Ponder that, and how it now applies ….. ……. ….. …
He lifted the reflective image from his penpal T. S. Eliot’s “Gerontion”.
His 25 year stint as CIA’s first chief of Counter-intelligence came to an end shortly after .
Yes, the riots, the virus, all of the misinformation. All turned on against the people. It is now a clear death struggle between the elite technocrats and the average human.
Yes, but who were Angleton’s ‘adversaries’? Really.
A curious thought for Pentecost, in the “‘Year’ of the Shuttered Churches”:
Q. “Why do they bury former provocateurs twelve feet down, instead of the traditional six?
A. Because, deep down, they really are very good people.”
Hey, it’s just a little levity for a glorious Feast Day.
I’m sure many double agents aren’t even ‘half bad’.
EVEN all the ones here! (LOL props to the 77th, and even the 33rds!)
~~~~£4£&$4$+2¢
“He had the life of a double agent, a precarious calling at best.”
~Graham Greene, 1963 Preface to “Our Man in Havana”
“Can any sensible person doubt that MI5/MI6/CIA place people in various positions inside the ‘Truth’ movements to do exactly this kind of thing?”
No, you are absolutely correct. But you have to judge each post on it’s own merits – not write a site or poster off unless they accumulate a consistent record of anti-left propaganda. It’s not good enough just to write someone off just because they disagree with your own viewpoint on a few occasions.
Thats just what the counter-propagandists in MI5 / CIA etc want. Strength in solidarity.
Re-reading some of the replies below about Moon of Alabama – just stop doing this sort of blanket criticism. Judge each and every post on every site (including this one) on it’s own merits.
What the spooks want is dissension – don’t get into it – solidarity.
‘propagandists’ – not “counter-propagandists’ – overcome by the exuberance of my own verbosity – sorry.
It was a great site. Since I started reading it in 2008, his analysis of South Ossetia, Libya, Kiev, Crimea, MH17, the Skripals, Syria, and a host of other events too long for me to remember, had been brilliant. No reason for revisionism. He failed on this virus and went all gestapo. It was a completely bizarre turn that has been and is being analysed by many people. If he wasn’t any good to begin with then no one would care to analyse any of it.
I never saw MoA as a “great site”, myself. Some useful info there from time to time, which
needed much parsing; but the place always made me feel uneasy. True colors there showing now with COVID-19™, IMO, as said above.
It was my go-to site whenever the U.S. regime started their propaganda campaign to cover up their’s and their ally’s crimes. His dissection of the proxy invasion of Syria and the Skripal affair was legendary, in my view, Carey:)
Fair enough. 🙂
There are no great sites – readers can pick and choose – some are good on one issue, bad on another.
I would say such people like b are there to take over independent skeptics movement to build authority using their CIA connections to get some unknown scoop or “meat on some bones” skeptics chew on coming from unidentified but supposedly authoritative sources of “wisdom” and then put thrust of narratives into intriguing even damming to authorities or MSM but false easily repudiated by other skeptics dead end and by that splitting people into warring factions easily attacked by mainstream media narratives.
But when times come B and similar CIA plants are ordered to expose themselves in a suicidal mission, who they really are; sleeper cells of police state who peddle exactly unequivocally official narratives and viciously attack dissenters.
That is why previously routinely attacked by MoA as systemic propagandists and pathological liars, NYT or WHO, CDC suddenly became a COVID bible to be taken on faith.
I don’t know Kalen, that’s a hard theory to believe. You’re saying that b took apart all the U.S. regime’s propaganda for well over a decade just to bring a few barflies over to his side for the covid-19 simulation event?
The first parallel that comes to mind is Sibel Edmunds, who gave us her examination of Operation Gladio. But when the proxy invasion of Syria took place, she told us all that Assad was an insane mass murderer. While at the same time claimed that Vanessa Beeley and Eva Bartlett were lying propagandists for Assad.
So such things do happen, but it’s still hard for me to believe that b was CIA the whole time. I’ll have to think about your theory for a spell;)
Sibel Edmonds represents a definite trend within the Turkish state establishment. Criticism of and unmasking of some elements of Gladio is mainstream politics in Turkey. Listening to interviews she gives I am struck by how routine many of her attitudes are in Turkish terms, not by how radical they are.
The AKP government dug up a conspiracy called Ergenekon which probably exists or existed, and for years used it as a weapon to jail many of its critics. Then it suddenly decided Ergenekon was not a threat, and began persecuting real or alleged members of the Gülen network, some of whom had been prosecutors leading the attack on Ergenekon.
Thanks, Waldorf, that was very interesting:)
These people get the “tap on the shoulder”. Shut it down and/or water it down with some of our dis-information or we make your life unbearable.
Though we cannot resist engaging in these debates, it’s probably too early to do so.
Very prominent medical PhDs disagree on the issues
Factors (like the CDC banning Coronavirus testing until March, and the PRC considering IV Vitamin C an essential treatment while the USA considers it criminal) will take time to surface and be counted.
I like opining about Covid as much as anyone but would pay money to watch professionals duke it out until at least the end of this year while we submitted questions.
Hard to listen to the “experts”, the government, and the media singing from the same hymnal, after “global warming” and the hockey stick graph, 9/11, Iraq and the ephemeral WMD, the GFC that the FED did not see coming, so on, and so forth.
Skepticism is a valid response.
Question everything. Accept nothing at face value.
Well, you’re free to shut up. You’re free to have things done to you and shut up about it. You’re free to never question, object, doubt, disagree, counter-argue – except against those who do those things! The Party approves.
Our Greco-Roman culture supports your assertion: anyone can say anything that comes into their heads. Potential leaders? Even more so! Check out the granddaddy of Donald Trump, Alcibiades, sometime. Our society collectively suffers from Dunning-Krueger delusions and it does us no good. We are in decline and there seems to be no way to reverse, or even slow it. I’ve spent the last four years studying China’s Confucian culture, which has always had great respect for expert practitioners, “Only those who do should speak and those who speak should do.” We saw that in action when the followed expert advice on Coronavirus and crushed it. You can see it more broadly, in how they deal with problems that afflict all societies, like crime, poverty and homelessness. The result? By this time next year, every Chinese in the bottom 50% will own a home and have an income, plenty of food… Read more »
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Why not refute my claims with contrary evidence?
Generally, people use ad hominem attacks like yours for one of four reasons:
1. You believe that an argument is a simple competition in which winning or dominating is the goal.
2. You believe that the absolutely correct position is already known to you but do not wish to reveal it.
3. You believe that argument is entirely about social positioning: that the only meaningful outcome concerns which person looks best in the eyes of third parties.
4. You mistakenly assess your cognitive ability as greater than it is and, by inference, greater than the person you are attacking (the above mentioned Dunning–Kruger effect).
Which is it?
As I said above..
‘You can’t handle the truth’!
Except if you’re Falun Dafa, dear boy.
Far Flung Dung is pure CIA, and highly malevolent. Knew you’d be a fan.
And another thing: there’s an “expert practitioner” who says he wants to see all seven billion people on earth given his vaccines. He is one of those who fulfils your maxim: “Only those who do should speak and those who speak should do.”
Fine, presuming such a person exists (he doesn’t) let’s listen to him then listen to other experts debate him. And shut up until they’re finished. Then ask questions.
Er . . . I’m speechless. You’ve got me there, mate. It’s a fair cop.
They don’t want to admit they are wrong. The cognitive dissonance is so firmly rooted in the USA, where Covid “panickers” are Trump enemies. Any let up on the scare is considered treasonous in that camp and all jump at MSM justifications for continuing this nonsense. Some are embarrassed. It is ok to have a viewpoint and be incorrect or mis-informed. It is impossible to be enlightened on most subjects during the age of glutinous misinformation with corporate and malicious interests influencing all forms of communication. Everything must be questioned now. No theories about “world leaders”should ever be dismissed. It is ok to look at many viewpoints and be receptive to all. If one is wrong, so be it; these people weld tremendous power and their decisions affect the entire scope of humanity. Fuck them and their willing(or unwitting) cohorts if they can’t take some balls-out conspiracy analysis – most… Read more »
sorry, “wield”(sp)
It’s ideology. And a belief in authority. MoA like many other “lefties” believe in the concept of an authority. They are at heart all Amy Goodmans on “democracy now” She puts out paltry meaningless challenges to authority- centralized authority- in a largely non threatening way An example that always annoyed me about MoA and others is this idea of “blowback” The very idea of “blowback” is circular reasoning because it assumes the conclusion in the premise It’s simplistic, and provides a ready made conclusion. The question is.. Is it the right conclusion? And if you believe it to be the correct conclusion then you should demonstrate it as such. In all my years of blogging, I’ve yet to come across a situation where the outcome was not knowable to a darn high level of certainty. Blowback walks hand in hand with ‘incompetence” or “ignorance” When it’s actually malfeasance that has… Read more »
Brilliant read. We should send this evidence to Sage.
Amy Goodman = shameful gatekeeper
Strong, excellent comment. It is this kind of information we need to dispute the nauseating orthodoxy illustrated by MOA and others who have bitten deeply into the need for obedience and ritual. This same kind of need for obedience and ritual has been seen time and again since the JFK assassination. Jim Garrison called it “sacramental.” The Vietnam War was once ritualized and sentimentalized into “bringing democracy to South Vietnam.” Years of this went by in “blind obedience.” It is far too docile to automatically dismiss critique, especially coming from experts in fields relevant to the problem. as with now and with 9/11 skeptics and JFK’s murder before that, and that posture inevitably becomes an excuse to stop thinking and lay oneself out self-righteously, comfortably, including demonizing anyone who is raising questions. I am amazed at the arrogance in the MOA response noted above. There is a supremacist, sneering aspect… Read more »
The Moonatic now sees himself as one of those robocops in the US, completely tooled up, face covered, out to intimidate you. Instead, he’s a laughable shill.
I’m guess it’s darker than that, but maybe I’m wrong.
C.
The “left” – which is really the pseudo-left – happens currently to be all warm and cuddly to the establishment, which can go “Coochee-Coochee-coo” under their chin. And the “left” knows that and isn’t about to do anything to jeopardize it. Everything about the Covid-19 zeitgeist falls right in line with the kind of stuff the left generally critiques: the possible engineering of the pathogen as a bio-weapon, the use of exaggerated data to effect a much desired lockdown of the masses, the impetus for tracking, tracing and inauguration of an ID regime – yet the left blithely ignores all this. To me there’s no clearer indication of this disconnect than Lee Camp’s Redacted Tonight. He should have been all over this PR stunt; but no, not a peep against any of it – except ridicule for those who protest the lockdown. The “left” knows who butters their bread. And… Read more »
I don’t do Twit-twit, but came across one of those things from some left-person™ Rania Khalek (sp?), talking about “Anti-Lockdown Idiots..” Love the thought-stopping ad hominems from the lockdown proponents, by the way..
The salient question these days, to my mind: who in media is *not* gotten-to?
FWIW, Rania Khalek can impetuously embrace a wrongheaded first impression, then run out on a limb and harangue at the end of it. She and a few left-person colleagues bought into the “evil Assad repressing dissent and persecuting moderate rebels” perspective on Syria, but eventually did an about-face.
I’m not defending this tendency, or apologizing for it, just saying that she’s prone to rushing in where angels fear to pontificate.
I was a regular reader of Counterpunch until they wholly sold out. Feckers. Long gone and sold us all out.
For years I have read and learned a lot from MoA, and thought him/her/those running it to be staunch. There were extended enquiries and exposures that nobody else was doing or that MoA was leading. Great work.
I have had for some years and do not want to lose a triangulation of information between MoA, the Saker and Southfront.
So much nonsense about a really trivial virus.
I stopped reading them a while back. I was having to pick through too much absolute BS.
Emily, just about everything is totally controlled by the psychopaths who rule us. This includes just about all of the so-called ‘alternate media’.
I will probably piss-off a lot of people if I start naming names, so I won’t do that.
All I will say is that genuine alternative sites are rarer than hen’s teeth thesedays.
There is zero proof that the vast majority of alternative media is controlled by the elites, only daft conspiracy theories that they are. The alt media is a broad church, not an evangelist cult. We have to agree to disagree sometimes. The perfect scenario for the psychos who rule over us wrt this is for us all to be squabbling amongst each other, accusing each other of being CIA assets, etc. I think that Bernhard Horstman, Craig Murray, George Galloway, Rania Khalek and others are sticking their heads in the sand over the covid19 farrago. That doesn’t invalidate all the outstanding work these people do on so many other important issues. Stop being so fucking paranoid. It’s entirely counter-productive.
Btw, OffG, you need to have a good, honest look at the voting system for btl posts. It’s currently an embarrassment. I don’t want my up-vote to be worth 4 votes any more than I want my down-vote to give two up-votes as well as the down-vote, as happened with RobG’s comment (who I usually agree with btw).
I have seen the same when voting but I assumed that it was because my page is not continuously updated with new votes as they happen, so votes are happening but I do not see them until I refresh my screen. But, when I vote the vote number gets refreshed on my screen, I now see the real number that includes my vote and others that I had not seen before. Just a guess.
If you play about with the thumbs after you’ve voted, you can reset them back to where they were before you voted. You wouldn’t be able to do that if the extra votes hadn’t been triggered by your vote.
No, you can’t. The voting is limited by email and IP.
Admin, I clicked a downvote on RobG’s comment, which appeared along with two upvotes. So I clicked on the upvote and my downvote disappeared, along with the two upvotes! When I clicked on the downvote again, it came back, along with the two upvotes!!
priorities…lol…meanwhile, we are being enslaved
But do we want our front line of attack to be clearly exposed to corruption? Heaven knows, there enough shills on here trying to create disharmony by accusing our leading figures of being CIA/MI5 assets, using the thin-as-paper excuse that said leading figures don’t conform on certain issues.
Other people are reading and voting, not just you. Did you think it’s just you and your keyboard alone? The site just updates all when you vote.
Hear effing hear, Rob G.
I think I can perceive some slight improvements, so I asked my wife..
From the first of June, we are legally allowed to invite 2 more people to our back garden
Lets invite Johnny and Len…
They can both play accoustic guitar and sing, and don’t need any amplification.
Wife: Maybe – but our Grandkids are coming round on Tuesday, and their instruments might get wet.
Tony
Tony, a nice pisstake.
I will invite you to put on a yellow vest and join us (you wouldn’t believe what’s been going on in France today, but the MSM will never tell you about it).
For starters, I think the Director General of the BBC should be put up against a wall and shot. Then all the rest of the cockroaches, across all the media – Laura K, Peston, Burley and all the others – should be put in the stocks and have rotten fruit thrown at them.
It sounds eminently sensible to me.
Music.
My ‘drug’ of choice as well Tony.
🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼.
I’m not exactly a nightingale, but evenings I generally light up an herbal cocktail, then sit in my living room bashing my acoustic guitar and bellowing along. I don’t know if the Track ‘n Trace drones are patrolling yet, but if your singers are anything like me, their heightened respiratory activity will potentially pump out copious quantities of the Megadeath Virus of Doom. And, speaking of instruments getting wet: like the lethal action of a double-barrelled shotgun, they’ll also emit droplets. Droplets! I refuse to read the burgeoning, urgent local newspaper webpage “What You Need to Know about the Coronavirus” articles, but by sheer osmosis I noticed that “droplets” were a recent focus of concern. I’m pretty sure that in my state (Pennsylvania) the governor COVID Gauleiter has mandated that gathering in gardens will most likely be approved some time next month– but only if the gardens are enclosed in… Read more »
That CCP shill MOA is a total embarrassment these days. I can’t believe i used to follow that creep.
Please justify your abuse of MoA with specific cases. Express exactly why, giving examples, that you think that “that CCP shill MOA is a total embarrassment these days”, and why you think that MoA is “a CCP shill”.
Otherwise, it will be entirely clear to every reader that you are only a loser troll and part of a plague on the internet.
‘CCP shill’-attracting the cream, I see.
Do we think Tim Anderson, MoA or any other of the cognitive dissonants read Off Guardian?
If so, I dare them to open and watch this video. It is two hours long, probably a bit to long for their attention spans, but worth every minute because it answers EVERY question you could want to know about covid.
https://brandnewtube.com/watch/dr-buttar-accuses-fauci-gates-amp-the-media-for-using-covid-19-to-drive-hidden-agenda_ONRTvUvmwSn23ic.html
Please get back to me when you have watched it, and please, please share in every corner of the Universe.
If you want a future for your children and grandchildren.
What is happening is fascinating. Some people (unfortunately far too few) with completely different political opinions know exactly what is going on and have decided to simple follow the facts. It doesn’t matter from which side autocracy comes, autocracy is autocracy. My political opinions are rarely reflected by the Off-guardian but I do respect the fact they are objective and no one can deny that. It is worth its weight in Gold.
As I wrote before MoA seems to gently backpedal on his nonsensical fact based COVID positions. Amid collapse of MoA readership b now allows commenters for some indirectly repudiating his own baseless assertions . Some sane person denying b claim of severity of COVID writes: [K: on topic of SC2 droplets spreading b says can easily reach several meters] 2 or 8 meters away from everybody? it doesn’t matter. Please go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adj8MCsZKlg In this clip from the Downing Street Corona Briefing on May 11th, Chris Whitty – the UK’s Chief Medical Officer – says that, to most people, the coronavirus is entirely harmless. Most people will never get it. Most of the people who get it won’t ever experience symptoms. Most of the people who experience symptoms won’t need medical care. Most of the people who need medical care won’t be need emergency or critical care. And even the… Read more »
i sgree with bee
b is correct in this uncerttain regards
off guardian have gone insane it is shirley as clear as muck dung that this virus is here it is active it is growing and israel is real
the r value is still way to high or to give it it’s full name G.R. V.
goyim reproduction value
it is so nice to know worldwide abortion clinics and my local masonic lodge is open yet all the churches are lock up tight
praise b
to molech
not
With which B you agree? Read his own words before he went mad: The Coronavirus – No Need To Panic, Jan 25, 2020. ..The current 4% case-fatality rate of the coronavirus (which still may increase [actually it decreased to less than 1% ]) is also not especially high. The Spanish Flu pandemic, which began in the U.S., had a fatality rate of about 10%. It was unusual in that it killed mostly young adults. The novel coronavirus [COVID] seems to be quite usual in that it mostly kills people who are already weakened by other circumstances. The infection is then often the ‘last drop in the bucket’ that kills a person who already had a medical condition. B about reproduction number value r (r0). From the same MoA post: The claim that “we are now faced with the most virulent virus epidemic the world has ever seen” and that the… Read more »
you lecture me on b missy my words last 40 secs on b 2 or 3 mins on craig murray mint you have a virus in the brain or it could be toxins as virus do not exist. you folks are slow on the uptakes been a long day for some insiders b was always a limited hang out he was getting called out so much he had to get the mossadicks in to help with the memory holing mention merkel and her dolphin nuclear subs compensation for israel mention the rhineland eisenhower camps and you get b erased gone in 60 secs. he called himself a struggling artist thats why he took the foreign shill ing maybe you down voted me cos you like the planned parenthood clinics open in these times of lockdown eye think it is satanick myself and lets not forget the clinics sell the produce… Read more »
Do you want to clever, or to be understood?
yeesh
neither
it is in tune or not
maybe change the channel
me i think you should be upping your intake of vit c
vit c trades electrons
5g is going to knock your socks off
israel gave the world a big vol nob way beyond 10 or 12
Well, one answer that comes to mind is that prominent sectors of the “left” are not actually anti-authoritarian. Quite the opposite. It is just that they prefer technocratic authoritarianism, so long as it is their technocrats that do the talking and the deciding. They certainly seem to hate democracy and reasoned debate, too unreliable to ensure their agenda is enacted.
What galls this segment is mainly some aspects of anglo-american imperialism (e.g., MOA), particularly the great game currently being played against Russia, China, and Iran. So, come to think of it, not sure this crowd is really left or progressive at all.
Affiliation to Russia/China nexus does seem to be a correlating factor. This may perhaps be unfair but speculation will always fill a void left by refusal to engage with the arguments.
Ted “that prominent sectors of the “left” are not actually anti-authoritarian”
I wrote a rather lengthy comment making that same point and more. I agree with your contention
In sequence . First things first, the header photo is surely a stroke of grace, it could not have been photo-shopped any better to incarnate the essential stance and look conspiracy-deniers that we see here south of L. A., and no doubt in plenitude all over the place. Second, many many thanks for just such articles, so timely, I for one hope they keep coming in profusion, even prodigally will do. Third, I choose the final offering on your menu of multiple choice, as I have really from Day 1, and even startled many “official people” (so there’s documented witnesses), that this is “cynically manipulated” as a plandemic. I don’t think everybody is in it all the way, I think our fine statesman Governor Newsom knows it’s what it is, various shades of mostly stierscheiße/bull.manure, but there is a “Tao” to even the most intrepid politics, and it is a… Read more »
The only time that I have ever witnessed in real life, an adult seriously plugging their ears and singing La-la-la, was in LA.
Well, the troubled if glamorous young lady in the photo heading this piece by Catte Black probably was in LA. It looks like an outtake from that Twilight Zone episode of 60 years past, when the guy is trying to offer veridical proof that the 3 bikers living in his attic are actually space aliens.
And they just don’t want to hear it, some sudden tears in reality are just too much for some people.
Like global virus hoaxes, for an example.