343

Do Masks and Respirators Prevent Viral Respiratory Illnesses? An Interview with Professor Denis Rancourt

Kim Petersen

A health professional told me back in March that face masks were ineffective but that respirators (the N95) were. Because of the source, I thought there must be validity to this. However, it seemed counterintuitive.

I reasoned that there would be differentials between using any type of mask versus no mask because no mask usage would allow aerosols to penetrate unabated, whereas a mask should capture much of the aerosol and reduce risk of spread to others and presumably should also function to mitigate breathing in viral-laden droplets. Because of the greater density of respirator material, the prophylactic would be reasoned to be greater.

However, what I had not considered was how extremely small the virion was in relation to the porosity of the material in the masks and respirators. I also had not looked at the scientific literature on the subject…until now.

Denis Rancourt, an eminent physics professor, former anarchist, and author, examined the scientific evidence for using face masks and respirators as preventative of contracting respiratory influenza-like disease, or respiratory illnesses believed to be transmitted by minuscule droplets.

What I have noticed is that Rancourt is wedded to the evidence, and he is unafraid to make known his conclusion even though it goes against the mainstream consensus. His article, “Masks Don’t Work: A review of science relevant to COVID-19 social policy,” is Rancourt at his iconoclastic finest. He concludes,

No RCT [randomized control trial] study with verified outcome shows a benefit for HCW [health care workers] or community members in households to wearing a mask or respirator. There is no such study. There are no exceptions.

The virions are super tiny, tinier than the pores in the respirators. Rancourt writes,

if anything gets through (and it always does, irrespective of the mask), then you are going to be infected. Masks cannot possibly work. It is not surprising, therefore, that no bias-free study has ever found a benefit from wearing a mask or respirator in this application.

Rancourt’s article is fascinating and anyone curious abut the efficacy of masks should read it.

* * *

Kim Petersen: Recently, American vice-president Mike Pence was criticized for walking around the Mayo clinic accompanied by mask-wearing staff although he did not wear a mask. He excused his refusal to don a mask based on the frequent testing he undergoes, so presumably he would not be a danger to others. Given what the science reveals on mask wearing, how do you view the reaction to Pence’s refusal to wear a mask?

Denis Rancourt: In my article “Masks Don’t Work: A review of science relevant to COVID-19 social policy”, I show that there have been many randomized controlled trials (RCTs) and meta-analyses of RCTs, which were designed to detect any benefit from wearing a mask, in terms of reducing the risk of being infected by a viral respiratory disease.

In the many studies, in which the known bias of self-reporting is eliminated by using laboratory-confirmed infection detection, no statistically meaningful advantage is ever found, in either health-care or community settings, with either surgical masks or N95 respirators. No study, and there have been many, has been able to establish any advantage of wearing a mask or respirator, with viral respiratory diseases.

This means that, even in controlled professional health-care settings, any benefit is too small to be detected by science, and that other factors must be overwhelmingly more important.

Regarding all viral respiratory diseases — which are both known to be transmitted by small aerosol particles (i.e., “droplets” of less than a few microns in diameter) and known to be highly infectious in terms of the so-called minimum-infective-dose (i.e., the number of virions that will likely be sufficient to cause illness or detectable infection) — in plain language, this means “masks don’t work”. (A “virion” is a single virus unit, the RNA and its shell.)

Therefore, any societal debate about the virtue or responsibility of wearing a mask to reduce the risk of infection, whether it involves Pence or anyone else, is occurring in a science vacuum. It is a political and psychological debate, not one that is science-based.

Likewise, no unbiased RCT has ever shown any advantage for a confirmed-infected person to be less likely to transmit a viral-respiratory-disease infection to susceptible (i.e., not immune) persons if the infected person wears a mask.

Studies that show that cough and sneeze droplets are physically intercepted by masks are irrelevant in this regard, because they do not represent the reality of actual person to person transmission, nor do they measure actual transmission.

In my article, which has been read more than 70 K times on Research Gate, I also review what is known about the physics and biology of transmission of this class of diseases. I argue that, on this basis, one should not expect masks to work. Likewise, if masks cannot stop inward transmission (into the lung), then, by the same physics, they cannot stop outward transmission.

However, it is important to distinguish a RCT that evaluates risk of actual person-to-person transmission of confirmed infection, as one class of study, and the necessarily simplistic arguments based on hypothetical scenarios using physics and biology. And the “masks intercept droplets” studies are useless in the relevant context. Masks intended to stop a surgeon’s spit from impacting an incision area are a completely different question.

Coming back to Pence, a face mask is a powerful psychological symbol of submission (to both the invisible disease and any State policy directives), such that it is understandable that many political leaders would not want to wear masks in front of media cameras.

KP: You write that there has been no randomized controlled trial that shows a benefit for anyone (doctors, nurses, regular folks, et al.) wearing a mask or respirator. The reason proffered is because the mask/respirator material is too porous for virion particles.

The N95 respirator blocks at least 95 percent of very small (0.3 μm) test particles, but the virion particles (from 0.06 μm to 0.14 μm) (See Na Zhu et al., “A Novel Coronavirus from Patients with Pneumonia in China,” 20 February 2020, NEJM, 382:727-733.) can pass through.

I am trying to visualize this on a larger scale. If I kick a soccer ball at a chain-link fence, all soccer balls will be blocked. But if I throw a handful of sand at the chain-link fence, almost all grains of sand will pass through. Is this an apt analogy for the mask and the virion?

DR: The many RCTs show no statistically valid benefit from wearing a mask or N95 respirator, and show no differences in RCT comparisons between surgical masks and N95 respirators, regarding risk of infection from this class of diseases. That is a separate question from any hypothetical mechanistic explanation as to why any benefit from wearing a mask would be so small as to be undetected.

In other words, that masks don’t work must be discerned from the question of why masks don’t work. The former is a scientific outcome of the studies, irrespective of what we believe or infer about the latter.

Nonetheless, regarding a discussion of the hypothetical mechanisms, one can say the following things:

  • There can be little doubt that the overwhelmingly dominant path of infection is via small aerosol particles of less than approximately 2 microns in diameter.
  • Such a particle can contain many and up to hundreds of virions.
  • One virion is approximately 0.1 microns in size.
  • Such small aerosol particles stay suspended in air in-effect indefinitely, as part of the fluid air; as would virions themselves, subject to chemical adsorption and aggregation.
  • Regarding the masks and respirators, pore-size of the filtering material is not the relevant bottleneck in practice.
  • The seal to the face is never perfect, and the mask is regularly moved by pressure differences, by the user for reasons of discomfort, and by normal facial and operational movements.
  • Inhaled and exhaled air will flow mostly through the paths of least resistance (or fluid impedance): through the breaks in the seal, through the sides of a mask, and though the larger pores or stretches or micro-tears in the filtering material.
  • The minimum-infective-dose is expected to be less than a single small aerosol particle, and can be as little as a single undamaged virion.

Thus, it is not difficult to conclude that mask and respirators should not work, even leaving out the complex particle-mask-material interactions that can occur, mask aging and wear considerations, and so on.

KP: You cite possible harm from dictates requiring the wearing of masks. Could you elaborate?

DR: My answer is in two parts. First, there is potential medical harm to the individual from the wearing of a mask. Second, there is societal and psychological harm from being forced to wear a mask in public.

In one large RCT in Japanese health centers, health-care workers who wore respirators suffered significantly more headaches than the cohort of workers who did not wear respirators. This was a statistically significant outcome. Furthermore, professional health-care workers self-report significant discomfort from wearing respirators, and therefore often adjust them or remove them, contrary to protocol. If healthcare workers, in circumstances in which there is no scientific basis for wearing respirators, suffer headaches and discomfort, then this can only negatively impact the intended health care.

More broadly, the potential health hazards of population-scale extended personal mask use have not been studied. Potential health hazards include such factors as:

  • constriction of breathing itself, including both flow restriction, and recycling of CO2 and vapour-laden breath
  • breathing-in the particles, fibres and chemicals from the mask-material itself, both in a new mask and for aging, used, washed, and sun-bleached masks
  • retention of particulates and adsorbed substances in proximity to the face, which would normally be expelled in the exhaled breath
  • collection, concentration and retention of particulates and adsorbed substances from the environment onto the mask, in proximity to the face
  • reactions of particulates and adsorbed substances on the mask, including shedding of virions or virion-carrying nano-particles from larger mask-captured droplets

Such factors have not been studied, yet population-scale policies of extended mask-wearing are being implemented.

From a societal perspective, what are the consequences of government coercion (“education” and enforcement) to wear masks in public, given that there is no scientific basis for any benefit from mask wearing, in terms of reducing the risk of being infected by a viral respiratory disease?

How is this not an arbitrary application of power, which directly infringes or denies personal freedom? What are the long-term consequences of habituation to arbitrarily applied violations of personal freedom?

The recent scientific study of Hickey and Davidsen (2019) (“Self-organization and time-stability of social hierarchies”) in my view provides a theoretical foundation that such habituation to arbitrarily applied power is part of a progressive degradation towards an extreme totalitarian state, depending on the degree of authoritarianism (whether contestation is effective) and the degree of violence (magnitude of the penalty for disobeying).

We should rollback arbitrary State powers. I would say: If an individual evaluates or believes that a mask constitutes health or privacy or religious protection in public, then the individual should be free to wear a mask, but how can forcing all individuals to wear masks be justified, beyond government pronouncements? Security cannot be based on arbitrarily forced behaviour of everyone. This is the classic recipe for totalitarian rule.

In fact, the present case of pandemic mask laws or policies is a case where a health pretext and stoked fear are being exploited by governments, in a globalized corporate environment in which there are billions to be made from vaccines and other treatments, and where legal liabilities for the treatments have largely been socialized. Regular vaccination, for diseases that have always been kept in check by the human immune system, are a hard method of creating dependence on the State, involving seasonal violations of bodily integrity, which could become forced.

KP: You point a finger at governments, monopoly media, and institutional propagandists for deciding “to operate in a science vacuum, or select only incomplete science that serves their interests.” Which institutional propagandists do you refer to?

DR: The main institutional propagandists here are the arms and legs of the pharma-medical complex, from the WHO and CDC, through the medical schools, to every hospital, research laboratory, clinic, community health center, and doctor’s office. The medical establishment is a major network of the high-priests that structure and control modern society. In their book, “health” is a dependence on the health system, not healthy living conditions, contrary to all the science regarding the determinants of public health. I mean, Pharma and medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the Western world, after heart disease and cancer, and that is not a “pandemic”? It is not even on the radar, except in specialized conferences and journals.

As another example of institutional and professional alignment with top-down directives and recommendations, John Ioannidis showed in 2005 (“Why Most Published Research Findings Are False”) that most of the scientific research that finds marginal benefits for expensive and dangerous treatments is incorrect.

In the case of the on-going COVID-19 saga, several top researchers and experts have broken rank, and these professionals have been profiled in a series of three articles in Off-Guardian, for example. Generally, these contrarians who insist on practicing science, have been avoided by the mainstream media, and have had to be featured in the alternative media, and on YouTube. John Ioannidis and Knut Wittkowski are just two of the names that stand out for me.

KP: Given that the conclusion of your review of meta-analyses is accurate, why would so many health care professionals, who presumably have been trained in evidence-based practice, disregard the absence of evidence for the efficacy of masks and respirators?

DR: It is a myth that medicine is an evidence-based practice. This myth is propagated by the medical establishment. It has never been the case in the history of medicine, and it is not the case today. In practice, medicine is whatever the profession can get away with and profit from.

From a political perspective, the public-relations statement about being “science-based” is a propagandist mantra applied in training those initiated into the profession. It is designed to deliver legitimacy in the public’s mind and among other professions, and means that the profession will attack, destroy or capture competitors that are not in the profession, such as homeopaths, nutritionists, acupuncturists, chiropractors, psychologists, councillors, life coaches, etc.

There is a large litigation record of this reality. If you litigate against or attempt to discipline an MD or a medical specialist for a practice that is not science based, then you find that the in-court or administrative-tribunal argument will never be about the science itself or whether a scientific basis exists.

None of the actual medical researchers will be called as expert witnesses, and they would be seen as irrelevant and thus inadmissible. Instead, a complete defence will be based on whether or not the hired expert witnesses for the defendant will be of the opinion that the impugned practice is within the spectrum of actual practice in the field, irrespective of whether there is a scientific basis.

In order to win, you will need to prove that the impugned act or practice is egregiously contrary to what is generally done or officially recommended by a certifying body; again, irrespective of any scientific-basis consideration. “Scientific basis” is given lip service, nothing more.

For example, when a drug or procedure is convincingly and unavoidably proven to be unacceptably harmful after being put into practice, and this harm is reported in the mainstream media, and there is organized public outcry, then the practice is changed but no practitioners are ever found to have been at fault. This means that the practitioners are not responsible to evaluate and establish a scientific basis for their prescriptions and treatments. They are only bound to do what one does in the profession.

If mechanical ventilators are the treatment for critical COVID-19 patients, then we kill those patients with those mechanical ventilators until the proverbial shit hits the fan (“New study finds nearly all coronavirus patients put on ventilators died,” The Hill, 23 April 2020).

The history, to this day, of the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is exhibit-one regarding the extent to which medical practice is distinct from any scientific basis. The said Manual is the pseudo-scientific organizational pretext for a large pharmaceutical project of managing the mind, which relies on heavy-handed “precautionary” prescriptions, made by any army of medical practitioners. For example, see Gary Greenberg (2013) (The Book of WOE: The DSM and the Unmaking of Psychiatry).

I could go on for days. Coming back to the masks, medical commentators, like politicians, will say whatever seems advantageous at the time, in terms of propping up their own legitimacy and popularity, and in terms of avoiding public-perception liability.

If it is politically risky to recommend masks, then masks are out, and there is no evidence that they work. If it becomes risky to go against masks, then masks are in, and we must all do our part to protect those who are most vulnerable, etc.

KP: Since there is evidence that viruses flourish during dry periods, might the use of a humidifier be a recommended preventative measure during seasons when humidity is low?

DR: There is conclusive evidence that viral respiratory diseases and flu-like diseases predominantly propagate via small aerosol particles, which are stabilized in dry air, and that this is why these diseases are seasonal in mid-latitude regions.

The reproduction number, R0, can vary four-fold during a season, in accordance with absolute humidity of the atmosphere. This oft-confirmed discovery was initiated with the landmark work of Shaman et al. (2010).

Closed buildings such as hospitals, residences for the elderly, and day-care centers are proven to have large densities of virion-laden aerosol particles suspended in the air, in the dry season. In addition, air-flow has been shown to play a role regarding transmission, in restaurants and airplanes.

Therefore, it is not unreasonable to examine the use of controlled absolute humidity, and air-flow management in critical facilities housing many persons at risk of severe complications if infected. A high humidity would in-principle draw-out virtually all the aerosol particles, by condensation, particle growth, and gravitational removal.

In principle, what was an environment of high-density of aerosol particles, would become an environment of low-density of aerosol particles. Only a true RCT comparative study, with laboratory-confirmed infection determinations, could demonstrate whether such measures can be effective.

Kim Petersen is a former co-editor of the Dissident Voice newsletter. He can be reached at: [email protected]. Twitter: @kimpetersen.

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Elizabete Hughes
Elizabete Hughes
Jun 27, 2020 3:32 PM

Denis Rancourt is a former professor of physics at the University of Ottawa. Rancourt is a recognized scientist but is more widely known for his confrontations with his former employer, the University of Ottawa, over issues involving his grade inflation and “academic squatting,” the act of arbitrarily changing the topic of a course without departmental permission.

jess
jess
Jun 21, 2020 9:03 PM

if somene fainted in your shop due to wearing a mask you could be held liable. all the worse if there was a sign telling them to wear one. shops should put a sign refusing entrance to people with masks.

ABC
ABC
Jul 6, 2020 5:50 PM
Reply to  jess

Not if the shop is following legal requirements issued by a town/city/county/state. While it seems like some people are genuinely negatively impacted by wearing masks, they seem to be a minority.

Dr. John H
Dr. John H
Jun 18, 2020 8:08 PM

This article I originally found on Swiss Propaganda Research concludes:
 
“Cloth masks are ineffective as source control and PPE, surgical masks have some role to play in preventing emissions from infected patients, and respirators are the best choice for protecting healthcare and other frontline workers, but not recommended for source control.”
 
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data
 
Has Rancourt excluded credible studies that disagree with his position?
 
 

PRDF
PRDF
Jul 10, 2020 2:28 AM
Reply to  Dr. John H

The conclusion to the article clearly states…..
 
Leaving aside the fact that they are ineffective, telling the public to wear cloth or surgical masks could be interpreted by some to mean that people are safe to stop isolating at home.”
 
His whole point was that they are not for people to wear generally everywhere…. It sounds like the only relevant place to use a surgical mask is in an acute setting such as a hospital, not a mall or grocery store.

Drooze
Drooze
Jun 17, 2020 12:55 PM

Could the humidity factor and lack of old folks residences in Vietnam (grandparents are usually looked after by the family) be responsible for the low Covid 19 mortality rate there?

Drooze
Drooze
Jun 17, 2020 12:51 PM

 

Gall
Gall
Jun 17, 2020 3:32 AM

A mask is a detriment unless one has Covid or some other infectious disease. Otherwise it is a source of hypoxia. It is well known that wearing a mask offers some protection to others only and not to oneself. Yet I see brain dead morons wearing a mask while driving in their cars all alone as if it’ll protect them from Covid like some magic amulet or as some wag commented about as effective as wearing a condom for sleeping alone.
 
A mentality as such that existed during the Middle Ages when masks of various kinds were used to ward off the Black Plague. Needless to say it didn’t work as some estimated that 60% of the population of Europe died anyway.
 
Native Americans seemed more practical and less superstitious about the virgin soil epidemics that struck the Americas by moving away from the area of infection. An early form of “social distancing” which was actually worse in many ways as it caused the disease or in many cases diseases to spread further across the two continents causing in some cases an over 90% fatality rate.
 
One would think we’d have learned by our mistakes but noooo.
 
A mask is absolutely useless if one wants to protect oneself from an infectious disease. It’s like holding up a newspaper to stop a bullet. At best it’s a placebo. The only thing that offers any real protection at all is stuffing oneself into a Level 4 Biosafety Suit.

rachel
rachel
Jun 17, 2020 9:00 AM
Reply to  Gall

in the case of the buffalo the colonists didnt bother blaming a virus. masks would be the opposite of a placebo imo spreading terror leading to adrenal fatigue. can anyone explain how the supposed virus is ment to kill someone? not at all.

klipfisk
klipfisk
Jun 17, 2020 6:52 PM
Reply to  Gall

Yup, or like trying to stop a fart with your knickers

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 16, 2020 3:41 PM

Sweden has approximately twice the population of New Zealand and the proportion of the respective populations resident in an urban environment is roughly the same, so the raw (‘unweighted’) figures to needed to directly compare COVID-19 ‘related’ death rates can be obtained simply by doubling the New Zealand numbers.

The weighting factors required to make more meaningful comparisons are numerous and complex, to the extent that the actual data needed to evaluate some that become evident when known impacting differences are considered are simply too expensive to collect and must necessarily be estimated (read ‘guessed’) instead. For instance, in terms of border control Sweden is relatively naturally isolated from its neighbours by European standards whereas New Zealand is absolutely isolated by any standards.

However, weighting, etc. aside, a simple raw comparison of COVID-19 ‘related’ (i.e. conflating ‘with’ and ‘of’) deaths against ‘known’ and ‘probable’ infections is worth considering in light of the radically different approaches of each country to containing the spread and consequences of the disease.

Under the sainted guidance of adviser Tegnell (suddenly finding himself being roughly shoved into the company of Ferguson in the Public Vituperation Cage) the OG/Suction admired and assiduously promulgated message of chilt and do what thou wilt is well-known and much loved herein whereas New Zealand’s rapid and comprehensive lockdown–an archaic methodology hated, oft dismissed and despised herein–under the respected guidance of it’s Director-General of Health has yielded the following results as at 15 June 2000* (New Zealand numbers doubled, in accord with the above):

Sweden: 52383 Cases, 4891 Deaths
New Zealand: 3008 Cases, 44 Deaths

New Zealand’s official position on masks in public (i.e. outside of a medical PPE context) is both incisive and extremely detailed. The incisive line is that: those with breathing difficulties should not wear them; those who have knowingly been in contact with confirmed ‘active’ cases within the last 14 days should wear them; otherwise those who have recovered from a confirmed diagnosis or who have not knowingly had any recent contact with the disease may wear them but, on a balance of considerations ranging from ambiguous effectiveness to possible risks set against benefits, should not. The detailed line occupies two or three more linked web pages.

Last week New Zealand dropped all internal lockdown restrictions but: continued to promote either the use of its tracing app or the keeping of personal notes of possible infection events (time and place); encouraged continuation of hand-washing and other hygiene measures; mandated until further notice a full 14-day quarantine in supervised hotels for all border arrivals (at government expense) except for specific, case-by-case exemptions*; and launched a ‘buy local / hire local / travel local’ economic recovery initiative.

* Update 16 June: two sisters from Britain, who arrived in New Zealand on 7 June to visit a dying relative, were granted an exemption to leave their quarantine early–as the relative had died and they wished to be with other relatives to plan the funeral–were found to test positive on a followup over the weekend. They are again in monitored isolation and the Order authorizing quarantining of all incoming arrivals in New Zealand is being revised to specify that no exemptions may be granted for any reason whatsoever until the applicant/s first test negative.

Readers may be interested to compare the presentation of information and government mandates in New Zealand with that pertaining in Britain: https://youtu.be/D1036b8Vp-Q (after the Director-General of Health’s dissenting dog had been escorted from the press briefing).

The two new cases after over 21 days of no new cases have prompted one of New Zealand’s senior epidemiologists to call for a review of current official guidance on the use of masks.

rachel
rachel
Jun 16, 2020 4:05 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

nz has a particularly large animal agriculture sector. they spread alot of decoy propaganda on viral strikes so the realit of the lamb and molton icecream blowing out the elevator shaft is not detected.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 18, 2020 4:56 AM
Reply to  rachel

I like molton ice cream. Better than tutti frutti.

A leaf
A leaf
Jun 16, 2020 6:16 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

New zealand and sweden are soo different, one is a very very isolated country in the middle of nowhere. Sweden is part of europe with open borders which abviously a very busy continent. after january lots and lots of residents travel as skii tourists to ski resorts so in the beginning sweden probably had way more patient zeros than new zealand. secondly sweden admitedly fffed up the care homes. They should have protected them and stupidly they didn’t like uk like usa…and deaths mounted up….Care home deaths are almost 80 percent of deaths happened in the Sweden.so when you account all these, the lockdown of healthy individuals was not very effective at all..no science in the world can prove me the meaning of locking down of healthy individuals for a virus with an ifr of 0.3 or way less for people under 40 and fucking up economies horribly.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 18, 2020 3:14 AM
Reply to  A leaf

“New zealand and sweden are soo different, one is a very very isolated country in the middle of nowhere. Sweden is part of europe with open borders which abviously a very busy continent.

Dear leaf,

that is precisely and exactly what I wrote. So your post would seem to indicate that you are the sort of responder who makes posting here such a worthless pursuit because discussions here so often aren’t. That arises in part from a particular ATL attitude that might be termed the “unredemptive office facsimile mindset”–if it’s not black it must be white and if you get that wrong you are wrong on everything forever–and in part because birds of a feather fly together.

after january lots and lots of residents travel as skii tourists to ski resorts so in the beginning sweden probably had way more patient zeros than new zealand.

That is one of the factors I was referring to when I wrote “[t]he weighting factors required to make more meaningful comparisons are numerous and complex” without bothering to list more than the one you ignored. As it happens, ‘after January’ there are two phenomenon related to New Zealand which significantly swell its tourist numbers: ‘after January’ is when the Northern Hemisphere’s summer tourists, especially those from China and particularly those on packaged ship tours of the Pacific, flood into the country and it is also when the world-famous New Zealand ski fields have a lot of empty hotels that, in conjunction with airlines, tout attractive rates for conference organizers. Queenstown–a sleepy backwater of only 16,000 inhabitants on the largest landmass (52% of the total area containing only 20% of the total population), which nevertheless has one of the country’s five international airports, a result of its skiing attractions in the other half of the year–was the host of a conference which generated one of the country’s largest COVID-19 clusters. Unless and until such factors and more (e.g. which strains of the virus were prevalent, and where) are quantified in both countries they cannot contribute anything to the assessment of the impacts of the effective ‘patient/s zero’.

“secondly sweden admitedly fffed up the care homes. They should have protected them and stupidly they didn’t like uk like usa…and deaths mounted up….Care home deaths are almost 80 percent of deaths happened in the Sweden.so when you account all these, the lockdown of healthy individuals was not very effective at all.

In New Zealand, over half the total number of deaths to date arose from a single rest home and the hospital that accepted transfers from it (both located in the largest but least populated island mentioned above). If you are going to encourage “discussion” that is worth anything, as distinct from pointless “me-too meandering”, you need to apply considerably more effort to researching detail of the subject to hand than you seem to have even attempted.

“.no science in the world can prove me the meaning of locking down of healthy individuals for a virus with an ifr of 0.3 or way less for people under 40 and fucking up economies horribly.

You may be right but If you are going to tip your hand (as emboldened in the quote), passing off unsubstantiated and/or unsubstantiable and/or received rhetoric as though it were meaningful argument in the very last sentence of a post, then not only is the contribution you make to a “discussion” (see the invitation in the text box into which you typed your post) valueless but you are, in terms of anything except mindless grooming behaviour, wasting everyone’s time. I suggest you show some courtesy and if you must wave your fingers about, try the voting facility, which is the epitome of brainless black and white facsimile discussion, instead.

Robbobbobin

P.S. To help you substitute “discussion” for “parroting”, the web pages at https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus, in particular the explanatory material at https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid (which goes into detail on the technical statistical problems of calculating CFR, IFR &c in plain English) might be worth a visit. R.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 18, 2020 3:24 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Emphasis within blockquotes is still not working consistently (may be clientside available RAM dependent?). The emboldening mentioned was Leaf’s “no science in the world can prove me”

A leaf
A leaf
Jun 18, 2020 6:11 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

With fancy language and bigot attitude you are the one who is waving fingers ,i am not a native english speaker so sorry if i may not be able answer you with such phd degree vocabulary. So you look like you are good with numbers find me comparson numbers of so called world famaous new zealan ski resort tourist numbers plus tourist flooding cruise ship numbers and lets try to compare it with europe ski resort numbers and swedens lapland tourist numbers you can do it you seem to be very capable.

“You may be right but If you are going to tip your hand (as emboldened in the quote), passing off unsubstantiated and/or unsubstantiable and/or received rhetoric as though it were meaningful argument in the very last sentence of a post, then not only is the contribution you make to a “discussion” (see the invitation in the text box into which you typed your post) valueless but you are, in terms of anything except mindless grooming behaviour, wasting everyone’s time. ”
this attitude DUDE is not very polite and calling someone mindles grooming behaivor amd shutting down all discussion with this lovely words is not at all a welcoming form of discussion either and writing a hell of a long reply before telling me this is actually wasting MY time…
this shows that you probably are not very popular in friendship circles. You act like your first reply to the article was very scientific and lancet worthy while it obviously is not.

In New Zealand, over half the total number of deaths to date arose from a single rest home and the hospital that accepted transfers from it (both located in the largest but least populated island mentioned above). If you are going to encourage “discussion” that is worth anything, as distinct from pointless “me-too meandering”, you need to apply considerably more effort to researching detail of the subject to hand than you seem to have even attempted…
excuse me but where the hell did i tell new zealand care home residents did not die or did not contribute the death toll?
What was the reason for your answer to my sweden care home deaths as if i said nothing about nz on that topic ? It all turns back to number of very frail individuals getting infecd. Healthy individuals doesnt attribute to irf rate , if sweden have protected the care homes %75 percent of deaths could have been avoided now compare that number with lock down country numbers i said..

The link you sent explains the difference between crf and ifr so ?????
and country differences still didn’t prove me the science of locking down healthy individuals as vast number of deaths arose from frail and very ill so containing them would have been very efficient so?????

In the end you may find me below your super high entellectuel level and act like this and i may not be able to answer you the way you deserved language wise , so you can take and put your nz and help you substitute “discussion” for “parroting” up somewhere and go ..how is this for the epitome of brainless black and white facsimile discussion, i think it suits you good.

Willem
Willem
Jun 16, 2020 6:28 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Interesting analysis.

There is one big difference between Sweden and NZ not mentioned and which could explain everything. In Sweden it was winter when the virus arrived, in New Zealand it was summer.

Current Covid19 cases have plummeted to almost 0 in the northern hemisphere, where it now is (close to) Summer.

So it’s either all the measures that stopped the virus from spreading in New Zealand. Or it is Mother Nature. In all fairness, it could also be both. Occam’s razor tells me that it’s (as always) Mother Nature.

A question unanswered is how ‘bad’ it is to catch Covid19. Given that most people who die with the virus are old and frail, it may not be much worse than having a common cold. Is it worth to lockdown a country for a common cold and implement anti-social distancing measures, that may lead to all sorts of misery (Financial and in terms of health) in the population at large? – That’s the question…

rachel
rachel
Jun 16, 2020 6:47 PM
Reply to  Willem

the easiest would be to quarantine who personel for 6 month they migrate north.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 18, 2020 4:58 AM
Reply to  rachel

Have you finished your ice cream already?

invitado
invitado
Jun 16, 2020 6:52 PM
Reply to  Willem

Such an important point, which makes me think the opening sentence (“interesting analysis”) is somewhat ironic.

Willem
Willem
Jun 16, 2020 7:11 PM
Reply to  invitado

It wasn’t meant ironic, or maybe a bit. I am not sure myself….

The reason why I thought this was interesting is that I (together with PhD students) have talked this afternoon for 2 hours with my bosses about climate and Covid19 and whether research into this could be interesting. My bosses first said no, because climate can mean so many things to so many people (which is true).

However the PhDs and I were able to convince that research into this could be interesting, if we could take all kinds of factors (like different climates in different regions) into account, which we will do.

The talk to my bosses was quite exhausting, yet good (I think) as I really had to convince them and also listen to their arguments and (where possible) to refute them.

Perhaps a problem of being boss is that you no longer have to think as hard as a non-boss and therefore lose thinking abilities. Despite this small success at work, it is still clear that my bosses have internalized the idea that lockdowns work and have stopped spreading a deadly disease.

The convincing argument for my bosses to allow me to do research on this topic was: if Covid19 is seasonal (which I suspect), it may come back. And since they also internalized the inevitability of a second wave, well… there you go.

How do they say this: I may have won a battle there, but haven’t won the war (yet)

Anyway…

rachel
rachel
Jun 17, 2020 12:04 AM
Reply to  Willem

no need to reinvent the wheel. we already know vitamin d is involved in seasonality of flu. you can find it on the nhs website. the slave masks like lockdown reduce sunlight exposure effecting people of colour and the elderly most. there is no covid. it is just some celular waste in people trying to detox under adverse condtions like lack of sun exposure, pollution,emfs.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 18, 2020 5:32 AM
Reply to  Willem

“Perhaps a problem of being boss is that you no longer have to think as hard as a non-boss and therefore lose thinking abilities.”

Perhaps part of the ability to get to be one of your bosses lies in their being able internalize (your word) easily the internalities of their bosses, and on up…

Regarding seasonality: Brazil, Peru, Chile, Columbia, Ecuador, Argentina, Bolivia*, …

P.S. My original post was not in itself an analysis but rather a pointer to a *possibly useful analysis.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 18, 2020 4:51 AM
Reply to  Willem

“There is one big difference between Sweden and NZ not mentioned and which could explain everything. In Sweden it was winter when the virus arrived, in New Zealand it was summer.”

Yes. As mentioned in my first post “The weighting factors required to make more meaningful comparisons are numerous and complex…”.

“So it’s either all the measures that stopped the virus from spreading in New Zealand. Or it is Mother Nature. In all fairness, it could also be both.”

Yes, again. Same caveat applies.

“That’s the question…”

Very much so. Especially if immediate death or similarly serious consequence (where “immediate” is opposed to “months, years or lifetimes”) eventually turns out to be a not particularly relevant point: not, so to speak, the “virus’s intent”. See “quasispecies” and consider more recent developments of that concept, with especial reference to CRISPR-*. In the meantime see also https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/weird-hell-professor-advent-calendar-covid-19-symptoms-paul-garner and then follow the link to his blog and thence the Slack and Facebook groups he mentions there, while keeping in mind that SARS-CoV-2’s immediate death aspect may be just unintended and, perhaps, as yet unattended-to collateral damage.

Brendan wtI’ll i
Brendan wtI’ll i
Jun 16, 2020 11:17 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

This comparison, Sweden and NZ, is useless for the purpose intended in the above post. First and foremost: Different hemisphere, different season. That alone nullifies the argument—no matter how particularly or finely argued—for reasons that should be obvious. There are many other oversights that readily come to mind, but this one alone is so astounding, why go any deeper?

With that said, can’t help but to mention: Take this same logic and expand it beyond Sweden, apply it to other European countries—Scandinavian, or better yet, countries that share meaningful characteristics in terms of population density with Sweden, like Switzerland—countries that unlike Sweden have had much more severe lockdown measures. The argument contradicts itself and falls on its face.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 18, 2020 6:33 AM

“This comparison, Sweden and NZ, is useless for the purpose intended in the above post. First and foremost: Different hemisphere, different season. That alone nullifies the argument…”

There was no developed argument: “The weighting factors required to make more meaningful comparisons are numerous and complex…”. Thank you for not noticing.

“Different hemisphere, different season.”

1. I chose New Zealand because it had early and strong WHO-style lockdown and distancing, etc., policies, in marked contrast to Sweden, as well as being easily adjusted numerically and having some interesting and relevant internal dynamics. And because I have a particularly valued relative living there so have kept a close eye on its progress and because, as a long-retired geriatric, COVID-19, apart from its potential personal impact (=so what), is in itself of no particular interest to me.

2. However, you sound like a still-feisty seeker after prejudice confirmation: have a go at Sweden v Bolivia (population 11 million). Takes hemisphere (hence season) right out of your feisty “that alone”. And check out Santa Cruz v The Rest while you’re about it.

Drooze
Drooze
Jun 17, 2020 1:01 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

There are far too many variables to come up with any conclusions about the different approaches of the two governments.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 18, 2020 6:40 AM
Reply to  Drooze

“There are far too many variables to come up with any conclusions about the different approaches of the two governments.”

“The weighting factors required to make more meaningful comparisons are numerous and complex…”. Thank you for not noticing.

Drooze
Drooze
Jun 19, 2020 8:08 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

I didn’t realise your goal was to be less meaningful! Interesting!

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 20, 2020 3:42 PM
Reply to  Drooze

“I didn’t realise your goal was to be less meaningful!

My goal was to point to anomalies that might be worth some analysis. Goal: not meaningful. Analysis: may or may not be meaningful. If nobody takes up such an analysis, so what? My goal has been met whether they do or not.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 18, 2020 8:05 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Update #2 (last for this thread): The case of the two visiting sisters effectively being allowed to potentially vitiate any possible community benefit from their quaranting has outraged many New Zealanders, large numbers of whom have had as much concomitant loss as any other locked-down nation’s population. As a result, the Director-General of Health will continue to set border quarantine policy but the New Zealand Army have taken over the role of enforcing it. For New Zealand residents already on the inland side of the overseas arrivals border all other lockdown conditions (except for voluntary trace app use or, alternatively, voluntary personal diaries of possible virus exposure) remain lifted.

invitado
invitado
Jun 16, 2020 2:22 PM

I cannot but agree with the conclusions reached by the interviewee but, like some other commeters, I do not need the science to find the obligation unacceptable. That’s why I appreciate the political reasonings of DR.
 
Having said that, the situation of the last months (this new imposition of “necessary sacrifices”, like always in the history of civilization, in the name of good) has made me, as a layman, pay some attention to the ultimate justification of the oppression, ie, the microbial theory of disease. My logic (I admit it’s not formal logic) dictates me that if it serves to justify the “necessary sacrifices” imposed from above, it’s a lie, or a half-truth.
 
Rancourt says:
 
There can be little doubt that the overwhelmingly dominant path of infection is via small aerosol particles of less than approximately 2 microns in diameter.”
 
It’s some kind of flu or respiratoty illness, therefore it’s caused by a virus in our system that invades us when it comes out from a carrier’s mouth… All very good and well, but maybe simply a collection of assumptions within a paradigm which works as an axiom? Maybe not, but please check this:
 
“Perhaps the most interesting epidemiological studies conducted during the 1918–1919 pandemic were the human experiments conducted by the Public Health Service and the U.S. Navy under the supervision of Milton Rosenau on Gallops Island, the quarantine station in Boston Harbor, and on Angel Island, its counterpart in San Francisco. The experiment began with 100 volunteers from the Navy who had no history of influenza. Rosenau was the first to report on the experiments conducted at Gallops Island in November and December 1918.69 His first volunteers received first one strain and then several strains of Pfeiffer’s bacillus by spray and swab into their noses and throats and then into their eyes. When that procedure failed to produce disease, others were inoculated with mixtures of other organisms isolated from the throats and noses of influenza patients. Next, some volunteers received injections of blood from influenza patients. Finally, 13 of the volunteers were taken into an influenza ward and exposed to 10 influenza patients each. Each volunteer was to shake hands with each patient, to talk with him at close range, and to permit him to cough directly into his face. None of the volunteers in these experiments developed influenza. Rosenau was clearly puzzled, and he cautioned against drawing conclusions from negative results. He ended his article in JAMA with a telling acknowledgement: “We entered the outbreak with a notion that we knew the cause of the disease, and were quite sure we knew how it was transmitted from person to person. Perhaps, if we have learned anything, it is that we are not quite sure what we know about the disease.”69 (p. 313)”
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862332/

Willem
Willem
Jun 16, 2020 6:34 PM
Reply to  invitado

Thanks for sharing that article!

rachel
rachel
Jun 16, 2020 7:02 PM
Reply to  invitado

people died from aspirin n vaccines aswell effects of the terror campaign like social distancing. flu symptons are detox symtoms not a disease.

David G. Horsman
David G. Horsman
Jun 18, 2020 9:22 AM
Reply to  rachel

The aspirin poisoning theory is just jaw droppingly plausible.

polistra
polistra
Jun 16, 2020 2:08 PM

This article seems to start from the assumption that avoiding all viruses is necessary. The author ignores immunity.
 
Because we have immune systems, we NEED to encounter new viruses in an occasional way, which we normally get from ambient air. With an efficient mask we never gain immunity to anything. Rebreathing also affects immunity. When your own exhaled microbes never get a chance to leave, the immune system’s efforts to expel them are defeated. You end up getting a MUCH larger dose than you would without the mask, because the same microbes are brought in over and over.

Klipfisk
Klipfisk
Jun 16, 2020 1:20 PM

The link text to “The Hill” article ((“New study finds nearly all coronavirus patients put on ventilators died,” The Hill, 23 April 2020) is misleading and should be corrected. I am 100% in agreement with the author otherwise, but this error gives room for attack as fake news by people with another agenda.

Admin1
Admin
Admin1
Jun 16, 2020 1:31 PM
Reply to  Klipfisk

I think the headline was changed when the article was updated on May 6

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jun 16, 2020 6:02 PM
Reply to  Admin1

Agreed. Following original publication the article was changed to effectively render it a completely new article focusing on additional data, the purpose of which can only be interpreted as an attempt to muddy the message of the original article. Overall the revised article is very poorly written, maybe reflecting the haste with which they felt it necessary to distort the original message.
 
The new article begins by emphasising that only 25% of Covid19 patients on mechanical ventilators have died. Anyone who knows the slightest thing about mechanical ventilators would know that cannot be true. The basis of that statement scurrilously lies in the sentence:
 
 
 
 
 

These [figures] are updated for how many we know have had an outcome and how many remain in hospital.

 
In other words, whoever produced the new data has compared the number of patients dying whilst undergoing mechanical ventilation procedures with a combined figure of the number of patients surviving mechanical ventilation (very small) and the number of patients still undergoing mechanical ventilation. This comparison has led to the disingenuous (but not an outright lie) headline that 25% of Covid19 patients on mechanical ventilation have died. A completely meaningless fact in the context and only valid at a single point in time. Wait another two months and let’s see what such an analysis reveals then!
 
 
 
 
 
 

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jun 16, 2020 6:38 PM
Reply to  Admin1

The article was more than just updated. It was disingenuously changed radically to muddy the original message. It should not even have been republished as a “revision”. The key is in the sentence
 
 
 
 

These [figures] are updated for how many we know have had an outcome and how many remain in hospital

 
Whoever collated the ‘revised’ data has hastily compared the number of people who have died on mechanical ventilation with a combined figure of the number of people who have survived following the procedure and the number of patients who were at the time of the report still on mechanical ventilation. The meaningless figure of 25% is taken from a single captured moment presumably to mislead readers into thinking that survival rates are not as dire as people may think, and truly are. I can’t see what other purpose this ‘updated’ report would serve.
 
 
 

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jun 16, 2020 9:06 PM
Reply to  Admin1

Admin1
 
Apologies for posting twice. I had edited the first post a couple of times but then appeared to be ‘timed out’. I had clicked to save the second amended version but it wouldn’t save and I received a message saying “you cannot edit this post”. I mistakenly assumed that the draft post was therefore entirely redundant so wrote the second post as a more succinct version. But I see that my first edited version was still retained for publication.
 
I won’t make the same mistake again. 😀

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jun 16, 2020 9:23 PM
Reply to  Admin1

Admin1
 
Contrary to my instinctive inclinations, I’m going to be a snitch! 😀 I don’t know if it has come to your attention but there appears to be someone commenting on recent BTL threads blatantly using two pseudonyms but the same ID icon and even on occasions responding to themselves as the other person! Coincidentally the style of commenting is almost identical to a couple of other differently named commenters three or four weeks ago i.e. deliberately posting a stream of rambling and incoherent thoughts seemingly to make threads unreadable.
 
I suspect you are probably already aware of this.
 

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 18, 2020 7:31 AM
Reply to  JudyJ

“…there appears to be someone commenting on recent BTL threads blatantly using two pseudonyms but the same ID icon…”

Unless customized, the (native) icons are derived from the poster-supplied email address. There are millions of email addresses in the world but a limited (relatively: very limited) number of native icons. There are even more potential spoof email addresses than existent real ones. What do you want? Posters get a message saying “Cannot post until you change your email address” or some duplicate icon use?

David G. Horsman
David G. Horsman
Jun 18, 2020 9:37 AM
Reply to  Admin1

WebMD

Study: Most N.Y. COVID Patients on Ventilators Died

By Robert Preidt
HealthDay Reporter
QUOTE: WEDNESDAY, April 22, 2020 (HealthDay News) — The largest analysis of hospitalized U.S. COVID-19 patients to date finds that most did not survive after being placed on a mechanical ventilator.

The study included the health records of 5,700 COVID-19 patients hospitalized between March 1 and April 4 at facilities overseen by Northwell Health, New York State’s largest health system.

Among the 2,634 patients for whom outcomes were known, the overall death rate was 21%, but it rose to 88% for those who received mechanical ventilation, the Northwell Health COVID-19 Research Consortium reported.’. END QUOTE.
.
These numbers are very typical. What a load of crap The Hill puts out. 88%!

rachel
rachel
Jun 16, 2020 12:38 PM

a false narative like masks n vaccines not only does nothing to help but also undermines understanding of what could help. it can even be a decoy facilitating creation of adverse conditions. it is knowledge of detox that disspels the myths and highlights a healthy direction forward.

Willem
Willem
Jun 15, 2020 9:56 PM

Holy facts, not allowed to be contested in the media, by politicians and experts, so no science needed to contest these ‘findings’

Covid19 is highly contagious

Covid19 can be prevented by social distancing

Covid19 causes death

Covid19 should be prevented at all costs

There was no alternative for politicians than locking down the country due to Covid19

Covid19 remains among us, even now in the long hot summer

There is no doubt that a diagnosis of Covid19 is a true positive finding

Covid19 is underreported and so are it’s deaths

The science confirms all above facts, even when it does not

Because ‘Ignorance is Strength’

Ort
Ort
Jun 15, 2020 10:29 PM
Reply to  Willem

BTW, Willem, I don’t have the knowledge or insight in scientific and medical matters that you demonstrably have, so I didn’t see the obvious flaws or weaknesses in the analysis that you mentioned.
 
But the grammatically mangled opening sentence, aka “lede”, made me cringe:
 

A health professional told me back in March that face masks were ineffective but that respirators (the N95) were.

 
I can’t believe that no one noticed that this sentence was fatally incomplete.

invitado
invitado
Jun 16, 2020 1:47 PM
Reply to  Ort

Easy, even for a non native English speaker, to see that the author must have wanted to write “were not effective but… respirators were.”
 
A friend used to tell me that writing on a computer is not real writing but -due to the easiness and tracelessness with which one makes corrections- editing. When one speaks, the sentence is, as a rule, already formed in one’s “linguistic subconscious” before uttering it, otherwise we would be constantly producing agrammatical phrases. Forming of the sentence = synchronic; producing it = diachronic. As opposed to computers, handwriting or typewriting involves a bit of the same as speaking.

David G. Horsman
David G. Horsman
Jun 18, 2020 9:58 AM
Reply to  invitado

invitado. What a remarkable thing to say.
It’s true. So why do you know that and what are the implications of that more broadly?
.
I think the unordered nature of SVO is tied to perception pushing one over the other.
.
IE. Verb is pushed first in motion detection.
Object and subject are interchangeable and is driven by identity and intent via a verb. I am suggesting any order can and does occur, whether perceptual, predictive or intentional.
.
Also, are you an alien?

invitado
invitado
Jun 18, 2020 3:28 PM

This: ” Verb is pushed first in motion detection. Object and subject are interchangeable and is driven by identity and intent via a verb” makes some sense to me, but I do not understand what you mean by ‘ordered’ or ‘unordered’.
 
I mean, the sentence being the largest grammatical unit, it is put together (ordered) via grammatical “machinery” (syntaxis and all the rest), which we learnt at some point and then “forgot” (ie, the rules and mechanisms were placed in a technical or linguistic non-conscious part of our mind) so that we can actually use it effectively. Any other psico-physical activity or technique we learn later on in life, eg driving a car or playing an instrument, seems to follow that original blueprint. Until such “forgetting” has happened, we do not master the technique, as anyone who has learnt anything properly might remember.
 
It might be that that process is verb driven, I’m sorry to say that I haven’t much insight into that.
 
But wait. What about sentences without a clear main verb? Take ‘that is the one I was talking about’. ‘Is’ works as a copula, which is not really a verb, even though it is usually classified as a type of verb. Some languages, however, do not use a copula to join “the house” and “red”. They will just make a pause or something like that. A copula, like the name suggests, is simply a link. So ‘is’, in the example, would not seem to have such a central position in the sentence that would act as some kind of organizing force upon the other elements of the sentence (and I don’t think that one could possibly argue that ‘talking’ could). That role would seem to be fulfilled by the mere index-word (like a finger pointing at a point in the world) ‘that’…
 
There are many modes of phrases (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood), and it’s mainly in the indicative type that the verb seems to have such an unquestionably central role.
 
Be that as it may, the fact that the process of building a sentece seems to have to be simultaneous (not governed by time, like a lightning), has certainly some implications. And I think one of the most remarkable one refers to the idea of time itself, or to the linguistic nature of what we normally understand time to be. You know, the past, the future, the in-between both… This misterious and yet so familiar stuff of language suggests that there is another, pre-linguistic time, one we cannot talk about, one that somehow invades us when we say a magic word such as ‘now’. Only without properly meditating about this, without feeling the magic of ‘now’ can one say that time (real/linguistic time) is a collection of nows. No way. ‘Now’ takes us away from real time. The present, yes, we can say things about that, it’s a bit of past and a bit of future, it’s within the arrow of time that anyone can draw, more or less in the middle of it. ‘Now’, no way. ‘Now’ is the lightning. And anything and everything that happens, happens now.
 
The sentece takes shape outside real time, in another, uncountable, inclassifiable, brute time.
 
And all this leads us to Karl Bühler’s mindblowing, yet so familiar formulation (as someone else has put it, speaking about language or grammar means becoming conscious of what we already knew): when we speak, there is the field of ‘that which we are speaking about’ (some thinker has called this, directly, Reality), and there is the outside of that field, ‘the world we are speaking from’. Words such as ‘now’, ‘this’, ‘I’, point outside of Reality.
 
(I haven’t read Bühler myself, but people who draw from him.)
 
Much of the confussion and lies of philosophers and scientists in the history of civilization come from mixing both fields, or answering questions that belong to one, with answers that point out to the other.
 
“Also, are you an alien?”
 
I’m Basque.
 
 

ive been sitting on certa
ive been sitting on certa
Jun 16, 2020 12:31 AM
Reply to  Willem

it is bad. they are probably trying to kill billions.

Johnny Ringo
Johnny Ringo
Jun 16, 2020 4:55 AM
Reply to  Willem

Holy facts, not allowed to be contested in the media, by politicians and experts, so no science needed to contest these ‘findings’

Covid19 is highly contagious (True: but so is the common cold and the Flu… point?)

Covid19 can be prevented by social distancing (True: see above)

Covid19 causes death (Covid 19 can cause conditions which can lead to death, big difference)

Covid19 should be prevented at all costs (opinion)

There was no alternative for politicians than locking down the country due to Covid19 (opinion)

Covid19 remains among us, even now in the long hot summer (and… ?)

There is no doubt that a diagnosis of Covid19 is a true positive finding (?)

Covid19 is underreported and so are it’s deaths (I have seen legitimate science and reporting that contradicts this statement)

The science confirms all above facts, even when it does not (Nothing you have stated above whether true or not convinces me that we should have allowed our “rulers” to collectively toss all of the societies of the world into the proverbial meat grinder)

Because ‘Ignorance is Strength’

rachel
rachel
Jun 16, 2020 12:50 PM
Reply to  Johnny Ringo

there is a difference between not knowing and choosing not to recognise. ignoring knowledge.

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
Jun 16, 2020 2:27 PM
Reply to  Johnny Ringo

I suspect you have misunderstood Willem’s comment.

David G. Horsman
David G. Horsman
Jun 18, 2020 10:14 AM
Reply to  Johnny Ringo

That was a good job of rebutting the claims (ie subject views and opinions).
In ranking them
2 neutral.
2 disputed.
2 opinion / debatable.
2 supported.

So only 2 / 8. You made Willem’s point I think.

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc
Jun 15, 2020 9:55 PM

Expect this in the next live world psycho drama re wearing masks – rewritten without any class..
 
 
Well of course I fancied Jenny Agutter – in “Walkabout”…never met her, but she still turns me on.. She is 5 months older than me. What a lovely gracious Lady who had the courage to swim naked in the pool, when no one – not even Glenda Jackson had done that before, with the cameras turned on, and get it published….so that innocent me could see it.
 
 
“(SPOILER) Logan’s Run best scene” 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxQ25MBe1_8
 
Tony

Mucho
Mucho
Jun 15, 2020 9:36 PM

This is another massive shot of divide and rule, the go-to king of population control techniques, tried and tested and perfected over centuries, still working like a treat. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. On one hand you have the duped, paranoid and subservient covid 1984 devotees who get all riled up and annoyed at people who don’t socially distance and follow the rules, revelling in their new found source of fear and tyranny, something they love like one of their own because the government and its agencies have been making them fearful all their lives, feeding like hungry piranhas on every bullcrap narrative the government throws their way, and on the other hand you have people who see the lies and the inconsistencies in the science (all deliberate to make people angry and sow confusion, keeping people in a perpetual state of despair) and who hate this assault on freedom and the Orwellian “new normal”. It totally polarises people at either end of the spectrum, a perfect receipe for a divided populus. Then enter the focus on racism, and identity politics, and lo and behold, as if that wasn’t enough, I’m hearing about loads of transgender males who have just given birth. Total setup. People are being played like cheap fiddles. They use every trick going, like focusing on issues that people really care about, to make it more heated and to get the extreme emotions. They are setting up race wars.
The Fullerton Informer Joe Imbriano, as usual, has loads of interesting and insightful things to say about current events. I always feel like I learn something when I listen to Joe. In this broadcast he talks about the 4 stages of brainwashing a nation, by Yuri Bezmenov, which I have linked to on here before. It’s an old video and has been kicking around for a long time
 

Howard
Howard
Jun 15, 2020 10:06 PM
Reply to  Mucho

Just to clarify, are you implying that even the perspectives which challenge the COVID scenario are as much part of the propaganda as the scenario itself? And by extension the perspectives which challenge the authenticity and spontaneity of the protests are likewise just part of the plan to polarize people?
 
If so, then there would be no point in questioning anything the establishment cooks up. So, where does that leave us?

Mucho
Mucho
Jun 16, 2020 12:32 PM
Reply to  Howard

I’m saying that everyone should stop dancing to the establishment’s tune and focus on the real problem, which is the establishment itself. Divide and rule prevents this from happening. They have to be exposed, they have become nothing but a disease on the world, they are scum and we are better than this. We’re being held hostage and prevented from enjoying the world we inhabit (planet toxic is unnecessary – cannabis being illegal as one small example which is evidence of our corrupt health system – plus think of all the toxic crap we ingest because of their criminal toxic industries) to anywhere near our potential because criminals are controlling the world through a system of violence, brainwashing and terrorism. The people are largely oblivious to this because of the mainstream media (people put all their trust in ther actual enemy by trusting the media) and that is how they get away with it…….by dividing everyone and getting them invested in bullshit, to their detriment. Switch off the television, start educating people what the real problem is. We have so much potential, for a better world, but this is being prevented by the establishment.
 
Ideological Subversion(Psychological Warfare) by Yuri Bezmenovhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpzSorHFR1Q

Mucho
Mucho
Jun 16, 2020 12:33 PM
Reply to  Mucho

Howard
Howard
Jun 16, 2020 3:24 PM
Reply to  Mucho

I agree 99.9% with everything you said – except for that .1% which consists of your saying “we are better than this.” By and large, no we’re not. I have long since given up excusing people’s going along with the establishment narratives as simply having been duped. They go along because 1) they do not wish to take the time to think about things that are non-work related; or 2) they see in the official narratives, no matter how patently false those narratives, a chance to make a gain of some kind for themselves.
 
Some events in one’s life stand out – even if one is not directly involved in those events. A co-worker, many years ago, had just graduated with a degree in Business Administration. She said the first thing she did upon receiving her degree was to throw all her textbooks away. Obviously, the books , along with the information, were irrelevant to her once they helped her get what she was after. I realize there’s an irony there in that most likely the books’ contents were pure garbage; however, that was not her reason for tossing them. They simply were not valued in and of themselves.
 
I majored in Literature; and for most of the courses I didn’t have to buy books because I already had the novels included in the courses. I even tried salvaging, long after graduation, the books a mouse had peed on and the pages stuck together. (Clearly the mouse was a Philistine.)

rachel
rachel
Jun 16, 2020 7:37 PM
Reply to  Howard

they have all sorts of reasons. one is the media has already defamed those with other ideas. they will have seen all sorts of dramas and movies with embedded propaganda. some of this is not obvious like the idea that they have no effect in anycase or it is negativity or one of many truths. i do wonder how they can watch this stuff and think it is positive. perhaps that is what it is. they watch so many tragic stories they manifest darkness.

rachel
rachel
Jun 16, 2020 4:28 PM
Reply to  Mucho

blaming the establishment is just another iteration of the germ theory. it is what we to improve our terrain that matters. the establishment might also see the masses as the germ so who is dividing who?

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc
Jun 15, 2020 8:48 PM

Everyone is having a go at US President Donald Trump with regards to his walking difficulties. He quite obviously is not taking the p1ss with regards to his slight walking problems, and raising a glass of water to his mouth, but I think he may have the same inherited muscular disease as me. It does not infect his brain, though he should probably cut down on the prescribed drugs, even if they come directly from the CIA (who are almost certainly trying to kill him)
 
I am not recommending it. never tried it, but according to my brother, who had it much worse than me, it works a bit – Quinine – in gin and tonics
 
He may have a mild version of myatonia congenita like me , but it is not that much of a serious problem…
 
“Most people with myotonia congenita don’t require special treatments. Stiff muscles usually resolve with exercise, or light movement, especially after resting. For individuals whose symptoms are more limiting, doctors have had some success with medications such as quinine, or anticonvulsant drugs”
 
Personally I would recommend a green blow job, and cut down on the cocaine (which I have never tried – the last thing I need is higher blood pressure)
 
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/myotonia-congenita
 
Tony

Objective
Objective
Jun 15, 2020 11:11 PM
Reply to  tonyopmoc

It does not infect his brain

 
Wait what. Are you suggesting Trump has a brain?

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 8:13 PM

a few months ago i went out the front door n across the road there was someone leaning down n i though he aimed something at my head n then made out he was picki ng up dog shit. when i came out airport someone pointed temp sensor at my head n it felt like it had bad effect. anyone got hold of one of those to check what it is . im not going to say what i wished 4 that dude who had the audacity to point that me.

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 8:28 PM
Reply to  rachel

needless it is not plesent n applies to anyone else pointing those things at people. do they have any idea how bad idea it is? pss pss good kitty. sssssssss

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 8:53 PM
Reply to  rachel

yeah that right you need to politely enquire if you may check my temperature. needless to say the response will be negative and i will choose which device i use in the event want to check my temperature. understood?

ive been sitting on certa
ive been sitting on certa
Jun 15, 2020 9:30 PM
Reply to  rachel

i want to know what those devices are and remedy any harm they may have caused.

ive been sitting on certa
ive been sitting on certa
Jun 15, 2020 9:49 PM

it is obviously very suspect shaped device and inappropriate part of the body to point it. obvious terrorism on a psycholgical level with the possibility that there is something the designed to do other than what is claimed. they should be seized and investigated.

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc
Jun 15, 2020 7:54 PM

There is no way I am going to wear a mask until I go snorkelling again, and there is no way it is going to be one of these. One of our friends was using one of them, last year in Cyprus, whilst I was traditional. She says this is great – I love it. I didn’t try it, but was impressed so thought about buying one, when I got back to England, but first did some research, and thought nah…

CO2 is not causing our planet any harm. It is exceedingly good for plants and growing food. However too much CO2 when snorkelling is highly likely with almost any Full Face Mask, because a high percentage of the air in your lungs, is not being expelled, and you will breathe that air in again, and again. The levels of Oxygen (that you really need) will get rapidly depleted. The levels of CO2 will rapidly rise (good for plants, but not good for humans – that’s what we get rid of when we breathe). CO2 is not quite as bad as CO1, which you can get from a dirty chimney, or an old gas fire with insufficent ventilation, but both will gradually send you to sleep, and you will die, if someone else doesn’t wake you up.

By all means wear a full face mask on the train if you want. If you fall asleep, someone will probably notice, and if you are in luck wake you up, and take that stupid mask of your face, but don’t go snorkelling with it. It’s dangerous.

“The Death Mask”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hilPPJEwq6I

Tony

Calamity Jane
Calamity Jane
Jun 15, 2020 7:16 PM

Lets talk about masks and thus spread the mainstream narrative there is a ” deadly virus and new disease” which is part of the COVID psyop.
“Strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow
very lively debate within that spectrum – even encourage the
more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense
that there’s free thinking going on, while all the time the
presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the
limits put on the range of the debate.”Noam the Zionist 4 controlled opposition
Hidden in plain sight.
Careful with the memes from the self proclaimed “dissidents” Off shoot of Guardian or you will not have any non believers left just shills and half truthers .
 
 
Are the facts scared ?
 
 
 
 

Mo' Gabby
Mo' Gabby
Jun 15, 2020 5:39 PM

Diameter of cornovirus, max = 120 nm or 120 x 10 exp -9 m = 0.120 µm
 
images of cotton filter fabric 
 comment image
 

Blubber
Blubber
Jun 15, 2020 5:07 PM

Where are the serious scientific unified voices of outrage at this debasing of the scientific method?

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Jun 15, 2020 5:24 PM
Reply to  Blubber

They are busy being the Adults In The Room /sarc
 

Light
Light
Jun 16, 2020 3:42 PM
Reply to  Blubber

Questioning Covid is pretty good. https://questioningcovid.com/

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 15, 2020 5:01 PM

“It is a myth that medicine is an evidence-based practice. This myth is propagated by the medical establishment. It has never been the case in the history of medicine, and it is not the case today. In practice, medicine is whatever the profession can get away with and profit from.

Tell that to Che.

Norbertrand
Norbertrand
Jun 15, 2020 4:54 PM

For those determined to follow government guidelines and not allow any pathogens through to your respiratory tract I suggest a transparent full head plastic bag hermetically sealed around the neck. Just the one should be sufficient.

Penny
Penny
Jun 15, 2020 5:22 PM
Reply to  Norbertrand

I have to laugh at your comment Norbertrand- My husband said exactly the same thing early on- Guaranteed safe- Plastic back, sealed around the neck and no worries about any virus. Or life for that matter, but, at least you’d be safe from “covid”

Penny
Penny
Jun 15, 2020 5:23 PM
Reply to  Penny

oops, my aching back is on my mind
 
“Plastic back” above is PLASTIC BAG
 

american
american
Jun 15, 2020 6:52 PM
Reply to  Norbertrand

What about hair, too? Hair is by and large not only an air filter, but an electrostatic collecting air filter. Yet no pronouncements in the globalist/fake/government news about hair. People are using worthless masks and jumping through the psychological-conditioning required hoops, and then also rolling around in their pillow at night breathing in what their hair collected all day. What a bunch of B.S. this whole thing is. The proper approach would be to just cure it.

Ort
Ort
Jun 15, 2020 10:23 PM
Reply to  american

This is all the more ironic, since in many areas in the US– including where I live– barbers and hair salons have remained closed by government edict since the end of March.
 
The shutdown order occurred two days before a scheduled appointment for an already-overdue haircut. There’s still no indication of when the shops will be allowed to reopen. God knows how they’ll handle the crush when (if) it happens.
 
I don’t have much on top, but now that the weather has gotten warm, the curly locks around my ears and the back of my neck are really bugging me. Since I live alone, and am not inclined to simply shave my scalp as some have done, it’s really bugging me.

Reg
Reg
Jun 16, 2020 1:41 AM
Reply to  american

Big Pharma is working on the “cure”. On the hair point, they should shave their entire body, enter a disinfectant chamber and get thoroughly cleaned, then have themselves painted all over with a sealant. Thereafter they should put that plastic bag over their heads making sure to close it tight around their necks and don a hazmat suit, zipped up tight to the chin. Then another round in the disinfectant chamber for the finishing touch. Having taken all these precautions they should not venture out to shop because outside is where the “invisible enemy” lurks. Best to stay in the disinfection chamber for ever. Supply them with a laptop and a TV – disinfected – for their internet shopping and the “news”. That should do it. They should be “safe” for the rest of their lives.

Paul too
Paul too
Jun 16, 2020 10:44 AM
Reply to  Reg

Forever covid free. Except on the death certificate of course ; )

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 4:53 PM

The WHO changed their schpiel on this recently after they funded a fake study to “show” that face masks and social distancing are “effective”.
 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext
 
They call it a “systematic review and meta-analysis” Anyone not trained in science at university level will be overwhelmed by this paper with its myriad of authors with their impressive initials, lots of numbers, graphs and references. If you can get past that and examine the fundamental assertions here and chase up the references you come up with a big fat nothing, like something that some desperate undergraduate student would cook up in the hope their tutor would not notice- or indeed when they are trying to come up with results that are expected of them.
For example, references to news and magazine articles, instead of references to peer reviewed studies. It’s basic science fraud that will go unnoticed by the uneducated masses- I doubt even university students these days will see through this, seeing how dumbed down education has become in the UK and US. Even when I was a student this was already taking place- questioning the assumptions of the science was often discouraged, talked down to or ignored.
 
This is pretty serious proof that the WHO is pushing a social control agenda along with the compliant governments. All of it rests on the century-old medical dogma that viruses are out there and they can infect and cause diseases and be passed onto other people.
 
A serious public enquiry into the lockdown is needed badly. This must be stopped.
 
 

Willem
Willem
Jun 15, 2020 4:57 PM
Reply to  Almondson

Totally agree.

breweriana
breweriana
Jun 15, 2020 4:59 PM
Reply to  Almondson

questioning the assumptions of the science”
When they stop doing that, it is no longer ‘science’ but dogma.
And you are right, the ‘lockdown’ must be stopped.

american
american
Jun 15, 2020 6:57 PM
Reply to  Almondson

Almondson: In 1978, in 9th grade, in “English 1” class in high school; even then, the teacher did what she was brainwashed to do by her higher ‘education’. She told us that in writing our papers we should avoid the following three areas: 1) gun control, 2) abortion, 3) nuclear power. Supposedly, these were just too broad in area, and also so controversial, as to be best avoided. The truth was, I discovered in later years, these were all subjects in which the standard establishment view could be devastated by a paper, and their only defense was to discourage students from thinking about, writing, or discussing these subjects.

Maxwell
Maxwell
Jun 15, 2020 9:34 PM
Reply to  Almondson

Good find- anyone taking bets on how many of these “science-y” studies are being crafted by PR firms.
 

Neal
Neal
Jun 17, 2020 1:57 AM
Reply to  Almondson

At present we here in Australia, are being drip fed our “freedoms” at the behest of “Chiefs of Health” departments in each state. But, out comes the naughty stick and tones/looks if suddenly the “virus” pops up again unexplained somewhere. (Check Queensland and Victoria for a laugh).I can feel the bile rise in my throat as I gaze with dismay at the docile responses from most of my fellow Aussies. I shoot trap, (which is a socially distant pastime anyway), but the hoops my club had to jump through because to “operate” in contraire to the “health proclamations – law” would invalidate any insurance policy the club had. So, now instead of governments running the country for the people, we have health bureaucrats and insurance companies running our lives. Freedoms pfft…..no wonder my heartburn is festering again….

Penny
Penny
Jun 15, 2020 4:52 PM

Hey all:
Just thought I’d share this latest news regarding the so called “vaccine”
The First Coronavirus Vaccines May Not Prevent You From Getting Covid-19 
“Desperation for a way to keep economies from collapsing under the weight of Covid-19 could mean settling for a vaccine that prevents people from getting really sick or dying but doesn’t stop them from catching the coronavirus.”
 
In plain talk the “vaccine” will not stop you from getting Covid, but it MIGHT make your symptoms less severe. What does that even mean considering most people don’t experience severe symptoms?
 
That might still make such a shot useful, according to Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.
“That vaccine doesn’t look like it’s a knockout for protecting against infection, but it might be really very good at protecting against disease,” Fauci told the medical news website Stat.
 
And finally
 
“For licensure we would not require that a vaccine protect against infection.”
 
There will never be a truly perfect vaccine.”
 
 
So there you have it, the vaccine will not stop you from getting Covid. In line with so many other vaccines before it. Including the flu vaccine and the whooping cough vaccine

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Jun 15, 2020 8:43 PM
Reply to  Penny
Penny
Penny
Jun 15, 2020 10:28 PM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

thank you Mike 🙂
I’m off to read at this moment

breweriana
breweriana
Jun 15, 2020 4:40 PM

What really needs discussion is what to do when the ‘2nd wave’ is imposed in late December.
And that one will make the present one look like a cakewalk – this is just the introduction – ‘lockdown lite’. The 2nd will not start the 3rd July, as some think.
 
Serious moves will then be made to remove ‘non-essential’ cars (those whose owner’s are ‘deemed’ to work in ‘non-essential’ jobs) from UK roads, beginning in the New Year. Laws are already in place for this.

bob
bob
Jun 15, 2020 4:37 PM

There appears to be some dissent here about wearing masks – have you noticed it doesn’t include the shops yet – presumably because they can’t track you with a mask on – undoubtedly they are testing the technology whilst you shop – however, for those on public transport the regime offers some help to you if you don’t wear a mask thanks to Journey Makers –

“Over the coming months volunteers are going to play a visible role in keeping others safe on the transport network. These Journey Makers will be offering guidance, providing friendly advice, reminding passengers about social distancing measures, preventing overcrowding and helping vulnerable passengers on their journeys”

https://volunteeringmatters.org.uk/project/journey-makers/

how nice

fuck masks fuck anti-social distancing fuck journey-makers fuck the lockdown

breweriana
breweriana
Jun 15, 2020 4:43 PM
Reply to  bob

journey-makers”
They sound like commissars, to me.
And you’re right – f**k ’em!

Objective
Objective
Jun 15, 2020 5:26 PM
Reply to  bob

Fuck the shops all cap-it-a-lists anyway.

Counter Economist
Counter Economist
Jun 15, 2020 5:44 PM
Reply to  bob

Gut feel tells me they are allowing shops for this wave because they cannot police shops AND public transport yet, and their facial recognition system isn’t fully set up, but it can even identify you with a face-mask on based on your eyes and forehead.

This is information warfare against the public, absolutely no doubt about it.

The only way to combat this is decentralised, leaderless resistance, its impossible to fight against something that doesn’t have a centralised command and control.

We have a lot to learn from the natural world as to how they synchronise in a leaderless way.

https://earthsky.org/earth/how-do-flocking-birds-move-in-unison

elsewhere
elsewhere
Jun 15, 2020 4:36 PM

Meanwhile, here in Belgium, an interesting article in “Het Laatste Nieuws” (Goggle translated)
 
Three Belgian industry federations are sounding the alarm about the 18 million mouth masks that the Luxembourg mailbox company Avrox has supplied to the government. The caps are “even more dangerous than previously thought”, it sounds. They are said to have been treated with a technique that poses a “risk to people and the environment,” warn Creamoda, Febelsafe and FBT in a joint press release. Defense, which is responsible for the distribution of the mouth masks, emphasizes that there is a positive opinion from Public Health about this. Avrox threatens to take legal action against Creamoda.
[…]
According to Creamoda, Febelsafe and FBT, the masks were treated with a biocide based on silver ions. A biocide is a treatment technique that kills any living organism. In the case of the mouth masks, silver was used for this in the form of ions, Jo Van Landeghem of Creamoda explains to HLN. Characteristic of silver ions is that they never bind permanently and are always released. “So they never stay in the product. And certainly not in cotton or polyester fabrics, from which fibers always break loose. “


Such a silver finish can be found on medical clothing for people with leg wounds, for example, but nowadays the coating is also often used for the regular clothing market. Think of socks, which with a silver finish prevent sweat bacteria from multiplying, so that the consumer is less bothered by bad smells. Simply stated, the silver coating kills all bacteria that live on the body and keep a person healthy. “While that is not necessary at all, because those bacteria are part of your protection,” says Van Landeghem.
The technique is controversial worldwide, because it is widely used and “will certainly cause damage to people and the environment”. “Because the technique was used to make the mouth masks, people also breathe the ions, so that they do not first have to penetrate the skin, but end up directly in the blood,” said the spokesman.


The second problem according to Creamoda, Febelsafe and FBT is that the masks are treated with nano silver particles. “They are so absurdly small that they can penetrate the body through any natural barrier,” explains Van Landeghem. And so they can get into body parts and cells where they normally don’t belong. Moreover, there is still insufficient research on how great the damage can be for people and the environment. “We mainly focus on public health of the people and this is really absurd. It defies any imagination, ”says Van Landeghem.


The Bureau for Standardization (NBN), the Belgian government body responsible for setting standards, warns against the use of silver ions, the sector federations emphasize in their press release. Countries like Sweden, for example, do not recommend its use in everyday products and in non-medical applications.
Finally, Van Landeghem criticizes that it is still not clear how the checks on the masks went. “The first question we always asked is” who did these checks? “But since the file is completely under confidentiality with Defense, we have never been able to check who tested the delivery and what was tested.” Every prevention advisor will confirm that a cloth mouth mask treated with a biocide such as silver poses a potential risk to the user, it sounds. “Once again we are amazed at how carelessly the safety of the population is handled,” conclude the federations, who previously called Avrox’s masks a “public health hazard.”
The Defense organization points to the positive advice from the FPS Public Health that the quality of the masks meets the necessary requirements. “The cloth mouth mask aims to protect people. The antibacterial treatment that the textile has undergone has no primary function, nor is it specifically directed against the coronavirus, ”it says.
 

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 5:06 PM
Reply to  elsewhere

While masks are nothing but symbols of slavery, silver is safe, and does not nuke the human body. But if you take too much too often, your skin pigmentation will go pale and eventually turn blue. It is the source of the “blue blood” thing- the European aristocrats used a lot of silver to eat and drink with, and it affected their skin pigmentation ( they were probably inbred and pale & unhealthy as fuck to begin with!)
 
I take colloidal/ ionic silver for oral hygiene and against gastro intestinal infections- it seems to work. Silver removes toxins and foreign bodies and cleans drinking water. Our overlords do not generally approve of it as it competes with their anti biotics and patented poisons.
 
 
 

Objective
Objective
Jun 15, 2020 5:32 PM
Reply to  Almondson

I’ve considered using colloidal silver before, i looked up side effects, as per usual anything that isn’t patentable is shuned by medical professionals, their main objection apart from what you’ve already highlighted is that its not naturally occuring in your body therefore is not recommended!! As if the dangerous poison big pharma scams people into ingesting is natural LOL.

gordon
gordon
Jun 15, 2020 8:58 PM
Reply to  Objective

i make a superb collodial silver mainly use it the way you do oil pulling
 
swooshing it around in the mouth for 3 -5 mins
 
i use low voltage and tiny amount microampere current slow but superb quality

american
american
Jun 15, 2020 7:09 PM
Reply to  Almondson

In “The Secret War Against The Jews”, is a report of how the USSR once stole a colloidal silver factory from the Czech army. The Czechs had and have a very good chemical and biological defense component in their army. They had accidentally discovered silver killed all microbes. A lab built on tailings from a mine kept having problems. It was the dust tracked into the facility. They eventually came up with colloidal silver. It apparently was not just powerful as a disinfectant. The USSR had a gigantic germ weapons program. They would not have stolen a factory to protect against something that was a good disinfectant. They WOULD have stolen a factory to prevent it from undermining the the expensive and hard-wrought potential effectiveness of their bioweapons, though. I confirmed this once by calling the Czech embassy in Washington, DC and asking to talk with the military attached. He was happy it seemed, to hear of the Czech army having been honored for its capacities, and said was emphatic that he had personal knowledge of the story being true. I did this researching back in 2003 when the U.S. was preparing to invade Iraq, because I figured Iraqi agents would attack the U.S. here at home with bioweapons. I also phoned and talked with another man and learned something. He was a germ warfare researcher featured in a PBS program. My take on him was he also was fearful of colloidal silver diminishing the effectiveness of the weapons he worked on all his life. He went off on a tangent about how much a germ like staph can mutate. What he said didn’t make sense and came across as a defensiveness as mentioned. I think this and any pandemic or bioattack can only be met with cure or prophylactic. The approach of quarantine and shut down orders and killing economies in B.S, pure and simple. It is 2020 A.D., and practically every technological problem has 10 or 20 or 50 ‘buried’, already-discovered solutions, and it is only a matter of prying them out and using them, and firing everyone in government or industry who opposes it.

Charlotte Russe
Charlotte Russe
Jun 15, 2020 4:35 PM

   HOW ABOUT A SOCK?
 
If a porous mask allows you to breathe in air it’s only logical it would permit microscopic viral particles to enter. In January the world’s population would’ve been a lot better off, if socks were placed in the mouth of WHO and CDC officials. Perhaps, it could’ve prevented the promotion of a manufactured crisis given credence by global health organizations working in cahoots with the national security state.
 
Think about it, if COVID-19 is as deadly to humanity as the security state and stooge medical specialists say it is the National Guard would be wearing hazmat suits breaking up all the demonstrations announcing that large gatherings are a threat to human life.  Instead of taking those sorts of actions there’s been nonstop protests for weeks. In fact, a WAPO article titled “How the Blacks Lives Matter Movement Went Mainstream” praises Mitt Romney’s participation in the DC demonstration:  “It’s now something where the Mitt Romney’s of the world can join in, and that was something unimaginable back in 2014. That is the result of six years of hard work by people who are in the movement and have put forward so many discussions that really changed people’s hearts and minds.” 
 
An article in early April 2020 on the website Medpagetoday entitled: Study: Masks Fail to Filter Virus in Coughing COVID-19 Patients says:
  
“A small study from South Korea cast doubt on the ability of surgical or cotton face masks to effectively prevent dissemination of COVID-19 coronavirus from the coughs of infected
patients. Median viral loads did not differ significantly when comparing coughing samples of COVID-19 patients without a mask, with a surgical mask, and with a cloth mask, suggesting these masks were ineffective at filtering SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, reported Sung-Han Kim, MD, of University of Ulsan College of Medicine in Seoul, South Korea, and colleagues.
 
In a letter published in Annals of Internal Medicine, they cited the size of viral particles as a possible reason for masks’ poor ability to filter the virus, despite their effectiveness against other respiratory infections.”  Study: Masks Fail to Filter Virus in Coughing COVID-19 Patients
 
The political symbolism of wearing a mask is obvious it demonstrates acquiescence to the official narrative, but more importantly it iconographically keeps the COVID-19 crisis “alive.”  This brings to mind the winners and losers of every crisis.  In the case of COVID-19 the mask industry has flourished, but I bet Juvederm Stock has taken a dive. After all, why waste hundreds of dollars injecting a plumper into your lips if it’s covered with a mask. For that matter, lipstick manufacturers must also be suffering since it’s totally impractical and way too messy to apply lipstick and then a mask.
 
Oh, and by the way now that the data reveals respirators are killers for treating COVID-19 maybe, it would’ve been wiser to spend those millions on hazmat suits for protecting medical personnel…….
 

Mishko
Mishko
Jun 15, 2020 5:08 PM

The Mitt Romney’s of the world joining in creeps me the F out.

Charlotte Ruse
Charlotte Ruse
Jun 15, 2020 5:33 PM
Reply to  Mishko

I agree….

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 6:04 PM
Reply to  Mishko

I was at a grass-roots green eco-festival in the 90s. Not a Greenpeace or mainstream event by any means. There was some open discussion about the ecological crisis and fucking Nick Clegg showed up trying to be a man of the people. I am so pissed I didn’t chase him off with a stick a fish.
 

Hugh O'Neill
Hugh O'Neill
Jun 15, 2020 11:08 PM

Charlotte, sock it to ’em! Lipstick on the face mask in a permanent smile – the stuff of nightmarish clowns… And maybe bankrollers with tights (pantyhose) over their heads were just trying to be socially responsible? The Guardian cartoonist, Steve Bell used to depict PM David Cameron as having a condom permanently over his head – Life imitates art.

Hugh O'Neill
Hugh O'Neill
Jun 15, 2020 11:09 PM
Reply to  Hugh O'Neill

For Bankrollers? read Bank- robbers. Though rolling the banks sounds interesting…

Charlotte Ruse
Charlotte Ruse
Jun 16, 2020 12:52 AM
Reply to  Hugh O'Neill
ame
ame
Jun 15, 2020 4:27 PM

The face mask is the Mark of the Sheep 

Howard
Howard
Jun 15, 2020 4:24 PM

This one phrase from the article says it all: “…a face mask is a powerful psychological symbol of submission….” End of discussion. The world has submitted to totalitarian oppression, lock stock and barrel. Game over…unless humanity wakes up to what’s happening.

sharon marlowe
sharon marlowe
Jun 15, 2020 4:38 PM
Reply to  Howard

Two people had facemasks on out of at least 30 people shopping at a grocery store where I live. The “world” has not submitted, Howard.

Howard
Howard
Jun 16, 2020 3:08 PM
Reply to  sharon marlowe

Don’t know if you’re in the US (as I am) or Great Britain. There are some US states which do not require masks; but the “Blue” states (like Maryland, where I live – even though our governor is “Red”) all require masks. The stores also require masks in a “Blue” state; and though I don’t give a hoot what the governor says, I must obey the store’s policy or I’ll be asked to leave.

sharon marlowe
sharon marlowe
Jun 16, 2020 3:51 PM
Reply to  Howard

I’m in a red state, Howard.

A leaf
A leaf
Jun 16, 2020 6:02 PM
Reply to  sharon marlowe

Here in Uk the number is much higher coupled with gloves and avoiding people like they are dog shit.

sharon marlowe
sharon marlowe
Jun 16, 2020 6:10 PM
Reply to  A leaf

Yes, the UK sounds like a nightmare to live in. I’m surprised y’all don’t have riots going on by now. Probably soon.

Neal
Neal
Jun 17, 2020 2:19 AM
Reply to  A leaf

Is that an inherently British trait regardless?(I was born in Bath myself and have observed Britons from afar worldwide and in Oz):) Here in Oz, it has been noticeably the elderly, infirm and mostly asians that have worn masks. The average Aussie, has really given this issue the middle finger mostly, I suspect the Asians comply because of the bad pollution in their home country, SARS history and mum and dad said so……
 

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
Jun 15, 2020 4:15 PM

The masks appear to provide the wearers with a sense of invulnerability. The other day I saw a woman, who was wearing a mask. She was walking along the pavement. A man was also on the pavement, walking in the opposite direction. The woman quickly moved sideways into the road without looking for traffic. The road has a 40 mph speed limit. If she had engaged in this manoeuvre a little earlier or later, I have no doubt she would have been killed by a motorist.

Paul too
Paul too
Jun 15, 2020 4:34 PM
Reply to  Steve Hayes

Have seen the same Steve, one very very nearly hit by a car for doing so. Another not so close but strolled straight out in front of a bus without so much as a glance.

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 6:09 PM
Reply to  Steve Hayes

The chances of getting hit by a car are similar to the chances of a healthy person dying of a flu. But mental health issues alter those chances significantly.
I wonder if she would realise something about the inherent risks of living as she lay there dying.

Ort
Ort
Jun 15, 2020 10:15 PM
Reply to  Steve Hayes

You mean that wearing a mask doesn’t confer invulnerability on the wearer? And here I thought they were just as effective as smartphones, to which pedestrians all-too-frequently devote their complete attention while out and about.

Ted Kuntz
Ted Kuntz
Jun 15, 2020 4:13 PM

Finally, some real science is included in the conversation. I too have realized that much of what is regarded as modern medicine is not evidence based, but rather simply marketing. Thank you Denis Rancourt for your commitment to truth and your courage to share it in the face of such adversity to truth.

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
Jun 15, 2020 4:43 PM
Reply to  Ted Kuntz

The five fruit & Veg a day started life as a marketing campaign by US agribusiness corporations, who cleverly persuaded the US National Cancer Institute to front it for them. Since when governments, health authorities and health professionals across the world have pushed it as though it were impartial health advice based on scientific evidence.

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 6:12 PM
Reply to  Steve Hayes

The tragedy is that most of the pawns following the script believe they are doing a good thing!

David Ferguson
David Ferguson
Jun 15, 2020 4:02 PM

Masks cannot possibly work. It is not surprising, therefore, that no bias-free study has ever found a benefit from wearing a mask or respirator in this application.

 I’m very surprised by this. because I have only read one study, and it showed completely the opposite. It was thrust at me as “more evidence that masks don’t work”, so I went to read it. Sure enough if all you did was read the conclusion, that is what you would get:
 
 “In conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface…”
 
Bizarrely, if you actually looked at the study data, it showed the opposite. A cloth mask reduced the contamination on a petri dish from the cough of an infected patient by an average of 38%, which is a very significant amount.
 
 Perhaps this analogy, although rather clever, isn’t quite correct:
“If I kick a soccer ball at a chain-link fence, all soccer balls will be blocked. But if I throw a handful of sand at the chain-link fence, almost all grains of sand will pass through…”
 
 It might be more accurate to say: “If I soak a football and cover it with sand, then kick it at a chain-link fence, some sand will get through. But a lot of it will stay stuck to the football…”
 
 I’m sorry if that spoils Mr Hitchens mosquito analogy too.
 
There is one thing that’s clear. Asian countries where mask-wearing isn’t an issue have infection and death rates vastly lower than Western countries. Rough per capita death rates are:
 China: 1:280,000
USA 1:3000
UK 1:1000
 
 In China, lockdown and social distancing aren’t nearly as severe as in the UK, but everybody wears a mask.
 
 I note that Professor Rancourt is a phyics professor, not a doctor or a mask manufacturer. And it’s pretty clear from the interview that he has never himself carried out any actual experiments in this field. But since he is certain that masks are not the explanation for the discrepancy between Asian and Western figures, I would be very interested to hear what his explanation is. Maybe you could ask him.
 
 
 

Paul too
Paul too
Jun 15, 2020 4:38 PM
Reply to  David Ferguson

The number of people being classified as having been infected with covid-19 whilst never actually having been tested for anything has been widely written about. As have the reliability of the tests, numbers of false positives etc etc.
 
Which begs the question how on earth did they get such accurate figures to claim 38% with any certainty?

american
american
Jun 15, 2020 7:20 PM
Reply to  Paul too

Like heart attack victims going to the hospital and dying, and then being written up as a “Covid-19 death”.

David Ferguson
David Ferguson
Jun 16, 2020 1:07 AM
Reply to  Paul too

Which begs the question how on earth did they get such accurate figures to claim 38% with any certainty?

There was nothing wrong with their methodology. As opposed to telling people that masks can’t possibly work because Physics, they took infected people and got them to cough on a petri dish, wearing no mask, wearing a surgical mask, and wearing a cloth mask (they didn’t test N95/FFP2 masks). Then they measured the level of contamination on the petri dish. (The study was laughable for other reasons but I won’t bore you with them)
 
The 38% is just an arithmetical average of the reduction in contamination while wearing a cloth mask. The data points ranged from 30% to 46%.
 
Perhaps their conclusion was based on what they wanted to prove, and it could be justified on the basis that “effective” is a relative term – something that is only 38% effective is indeed “ineffective” compared to something that is 100% effective.
 
 

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
Jun 16, 2020 2:32 PM
Reply to  David Ferguson

Perhaps their conclusion was based on what they wanted to prove, and it could be justified on the basis that “effective” is a relative term – something that is only 38% effective is indeed “ineffective” compared to something that is 100% effective.

No David. In this context, the term “effective” means stops the transmission of the virus.

Albenme
Albenme
Jun 17, 2020 7:37 AM
Reply to  David Ferguson

Can you provide a link to the study?

David F
David F
Jun 19, 2020 7:08 AM
Reply to  Albenme

Sorry I didn’t see this post. If you come back looking:
 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-review-of-disparities-in-risks-and-outcomes
 
 

Objective
Objective
Jun 15, 2020 5:41 PM
Reply to  David Ferguson

Whats the population demographic of these Asian countries, age wise? Do they have care homes? are they run like western care homes? As many of these countries already wear masks because of air pollution is there a control group to compare? Are they already exposed to corona viruses? Details like this helps with science.

David F
David F
Jun 16, 2020 7:57 AM
Reply to  Objective

Average life expectacy in China is similar to the developed West now, and the older age demographic is growing fast. Elderly people are still far more likely to live with their families, but they do have care homes. Unlike the UK, they managed to prevent Covid from gaining a foothold in their care homes.
 
They had lockdowns, but they were much shorter and more targeted than the UK lockdown. They had social distancing, but nobody really bothered that much about it. The most obvious and significant difference is that from the day the emergency was declared in Wuhan, everybody started wearing a mask in public.
 
But a Physics Professor has just come along and explained to me that masks make absolutely no difference. Because Physics. And who am I to argue with him? So I have nothing. Maybe the Chinese have magic beans. I haven’t seen any, but they must be out there.

Objective
Objective
Jun 16, 2020 10:46 AM
Reply to  David F

So you destroyed your own argument because other measures were put in place! Thanks for your admission.

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 6:18 PM
Reply to  David Ferguson

The numbers are meaningless- the tests are bogus and the reporting is bogus. Everything that looks even a little like it could be a flu is written down as “covid19″… If you took random healthy people and used a working test, many would test positive, because the science is fake.
 

Mark Rabine
Mark Rabine
Jun 15, 2020 6:26 PM
Reply to  David Ferguson

People in Asian countries also eat a lot of noodles. So I started eating noodles since the outbreak so far it’s worked

David F
David F
Jun 16, 2020 8:15 AM
Reply to  Mark Rabine

Oh don’t be so fucking stupid.

Objective
Objective
Jun 16, 2020 10:47 AM
Reply to  David F

Stupid is, as stupid does.

Mark Rabine
Mark Rabine
Jun 16, 2020 6:37 PM
Reply to  David F

OK David, I’ll try but it’s not easy. Meanwhile, and seriously, check out this mask which has been developed by Cooperation Jackson. It’s made of plastic with a filter. Easy to use, easy to wash and doesn’t get into all the other issues surrounding cloth masks/face coverings. https://cooperationjackson.org/announcementsblog/rbg90xmasktutorial

kim petersen
kim petersen
Jun 16, 2020 12:57 AM
Reply to  David Ferguson

“I note that Professor Rancourt is a phyics professor, not a doctor or a mask manufacturer. And it’s pretty clear from the interview that he has never himself carried out any actual experiments in this field. But since he is certain that masks are not the explanation for the discrepancy between Asian and Western figures, I would be very interested to hear what his explanation is. Maybe you could ask him.”

Mr Ferguson,
Science is science, and science is carried out according to the scientific method in all scientific fields. What is clear is that Mr Rancourt looked at the meta-analyses of data from RCTs to draw his conclusions, as any scientist would do. Also, scientists should not express certainty about knowledge; what scientists do is reject theories when controlled experimentation supports the null hypothesis. In that way, science should more closely approximate the truth.
Lastly, if the discrepancy between Asian and western data were a result from an RCT, then hypothesizing may be fruitful. Until then …

David F
David F
Jun 16, 2020 9:04 AM
Reply to  kim petersen

…scientists should not express certainty about knowledge; what scientists do is reject theories when controlled experimentation supports the null hypothesis.

Quite. Which is why I was rather surprised to read this somewhat bold and uncompromising statement in Prof Rancourt’s interview:

“Nonetheless, regarding a discussion of the hypothetical mechanisms, one can say the following things:

There can be little doubt that the overwhelmingly dominant path of infection is via small aerosol particles of less than approximately 2 microns in diameter…”

I am willing to bet you £50 (to be paid as a contribution to OffG) that there is not one single RCT behind this claim; that it is simply something that Prof Rancourt believes to be true. I assure you I’ll pony up if I’m wrong.

Lastly, if the discrepancy between Asian and western data were a result from an RCT, then hypothesizing may be fruitful. Until then …

That seems to be a rather blinkered and arrogant view when you’re dealing with “metadata” from a sample size that amounts to a fifth of the population of the planet, and the discrepancy is of the order of 1:1000 compared to 1:280,000, and the only discernible difference of any significance is the wearing of masks.
 
What if Prof Rancourt and his RCTs and his scientific meta-analyses are wrong? What if there’s something they didn’t think of? Wearing a mask when you go out in public for a couple of weeks (the incubation period of the virus) is a minimal imposition – I only end up wearing mine for a few minutes each day. I would be inclined to try it and see if it makes any difference. If it doesn’t, it’s no big deal. And if it does, then Prof Rancourt and his fellow scientists can get round to conducting RCTs to find out why it worked, instead of conducting meta-analyses to prove that it won’t.

breweriana
breweriana
Jun 15, 2020 3:39 PM

And yet another stupid article:
 
i) If masks prevent diseases, then how come they didn’t work in the plagues of the Middle Ages?
 
ii) A piece of cloth over your a**e doesn’t stop a fart; what chance does it have stopping virus particles when one is over the mouth?
 
iii) In the labs, the only safe containment measures use negative air pressure to contain viruses – how does a 50p mask match that – are the labs just wrong?
 
Off-G is clearly losing the plot.
 

Willem
Willem
Jun 15, 2020 4:19 PM
Reply to  breweriana

To be honest, this article came from dissident voice, not Off-G. I don’t know why Off-G shared it. There are some truths in it, and we have an eminent professor who is telling these truths. But unfortunately the interview is not that good and instead of making things more clear, it muddies the water IMO.

David Ferguson
David Ferguson
Jun 15, 2020 4:26 PM
Reply to  breweriana

Did you even bother to read the article, or were there too many big words? It goes on at great length to explain that masks don’t work.

breweriana
breweriana
Jun 15, 2020 4:51 PM
Reply to  David Ferguson

Did you even bother to read the comment, or was your head too far up your own a**e?
 
The real issues should be discussed are the ‘2nd wave’ in December that will impose control on a level never seen before in the UK.

nondimenticare
nondimenticare
Jun 15, 2020 6:10 PM
Reply to  breweriana

The issue you think Rancourt should have discussed but didn’t was not the subject of his article, which was simply the effectiveness of masks. A person should not be criticized for writing an article on a different subject from the one you are interested in.

Loverat
Loverat
Jun 15, 2020 5:02 PM
Reply to  David Ferguson

David

Don’t be too hard on him. To his credit his points i) and especially ii) might have good scientific merit which the professor didn’t consider or conduct the necessary experiments.

Anyway, one thing you can’t deny – there are certaintly a very wide range of views. From being universally congratulated for being one of the sole sceptics, Off G seems under fire from all directions.

Counter Economist
Counter Economist
Jun 15, 2020 5:53 PM
Reply to  breweriana

The masks are NOTHING to do with protection against a virus.

It is a social conditioning and obedience program – start with a mask, then move to a compulsory contact tracing system, then digital ID with immunity certificates and finally mandatory vaccines once they’ve got past that pesky “vaccine hesitancy” issue.

Where you will see this in full effect is at airports within 12 months because they want to get air travel down, however I suspect there will be so many sheeple who will readily accept a jab in their arm to go to Benidorm that they might have to rethink their approach.

Thom
Thom
Jun 15, 2020 3:37 PM

I think we know the answer. Even the British government website says masks might not help protect against viruses.
How long do we give it before government hastily drop all this nonsense and start literally begging people to go shopping and “do their bit” to save the economy?
Look at how the UK newspapers are already hyping up the queues this morning – yet when I went out earlier on the first day of opening, it all seemed extremely quiet except at the banks as usual. Next they’ll be telling us there are toilet paper shortages…
 

Willem
Willem
Jun 15, 2020 4:23 PM
Reply to  Thom

‘ Next they’ll be telling us there are toilet paper shortages…’

I remember that one. My boss X was really puzzled why people massively bought toilet paper at the time…

Of course it was because the media were telling the reader that people were massively buying toilet paper.

What a joke…

american
american
Jun 15, 2020 7:23 PM
Reply to  Willem

I heard that all happened after that criminal Pelosi blabbered her two bits worth, after a Trump address of the nation. It has also been pretty clear which TP companies were not using US fiber, or were part and parcel of the ‘shortage’ by not making any.

Andy Brent
Andy Brent
Jun 15, 2020 3:36 PM

I can’t wear one because I have a respiratory illness. Not that I’m bothering going on public transport at the moment – although, according to the ‘UK’ Government (mainly England only – the rest have their own) I needn’t wear a mask. It’s just that seeing almost the whole of mankind towing an absurd and completely illogical line, and one that can be detrimental to health, affects my breathing.

Watt
Watt
Jun 15, 2020 4:10 PM
Reply to  Andy Brent

Did you know that in some quarters they(the masks) have been awarded the somewhat unkind sobriquet of ‘slave muzzle’. In a twisted way, it almost makes more sense!

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 6:21 PM
Reply to  Andy Brent

Be careful who you tell you have a respiratory illness.

gordon
gordon
Jun 15, 2020 3:10 PM

louis pasteur thief fraudster imposter killer bull shit artist friend of banksta
 
he busted
just like scumbag marconi and edison all scum
germ theory balls bollox
 
 
if 100 folks coughed and sneezed in my face and my gut was in top shape and i with a strong system
 
no result would occur during the following days
 
 
the terrain is everywhere and everything
 
 
toxins artificial now that’s different
 
 
the truth of the germ theory lie
cannot be put back in the bottle
the truth is free
 
 
so are many herbal remedy
 
 
nicola tesla ether master
 
bechamp the master of the terra firma
 
 
 
 
everything else is hot dirty air in poly ester chemi cull mask

Maxwell
Maxwell
Jun 15, 2020 3:08 PM

Arguing the masks or no masks is absurd- confession I do it myself- as the very idea that healthy people should be wearing them or be sequestered is patently absurd. No need for technical analysis here- which I also do.
 
There is nothing to protect against. The concept of The Killer Covid Virus from Outer Space is an invention cooked up by large vested financial and political interests who through their lackeys in the WHO, CDC, NHS et al, pushed the alarm button to bring about a cottage industry cash cow and a furtherance of social control.
 
If these hooligans were serious about public health they would be providing healthy food at low costs, meaningful work positions in a healthy environment, clean and free public transportation, protection of the vulnerable and a thousand other things. That they have no interest in any of these things proves irrevocably that these big business interests and their government pets have zero interest in public health so all conversations about the details, which I frequent and suppose are necessary, can some times blur the big picture.
 
I have not and will not wear or own a mask as it is a symbol of collusion and compliance to a false narrative that is responsible for mass destruction.

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 3:23 PM
Reply to  Maxwell

i freaked out when i saw bus drivers with masks. the buses were empty so i thought they might driving them to death camps. i had to walk n was terrified. atleast the masks rules are over today.

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 3:53 PM
Reply to  rachel

i had hunters or something chasing me. every time i stopped i would hear dog in the distance. there was like these blue beams pulsing out the top of the hill. then i saw vehicles spraying whole hilside in the dead of night. fruits gave me stamina.

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 5:14 PM
Reply to  rachel

i came to the top of this hill n there was a track along the ridge. then i noticed there was a light n soon realised it was a vehicle driving towards me at high speed. i was lying under a push controlling my breathing n remaining absolutely still. i heard voices n eventually they had left. then i was going straight up n over some valleys. i eventually went down on the road n there was signs that were sprayed over. i was petrified. it was inpenetrable scrub i crawled into when i heard a vehicle. i thought that was the end.

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 5:35 PM
Reply to  rachel

i eventualy came out in the day for water n saw the signs were supposed to be for a nature reserve. i was eating fruit in the village n eventuall asked old man if i could sleep in the grove but he had a weapon n scared me off into another night of terror.

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 5:52 PM
Reply to  rachel

its called social distancing. when i left that village a plane came over n back north. there was an ambulance came past n i imagined the old man in shock as it stopped outside. lol

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 6:49 PM
Reply to  rachel

he was standing there with a sythe but i didnt work it out. i asked if i could sleep on the hillside n stuff u know to feel safe nearby. he asked if i wanted to meet his son n i was like yeah course that would be nice n then he was there n put on a gas mask n i realised they were threatening me n said no big deal n was walking on.

american
american
Jun 15, 2020 7:26 PM
Reply to  Maxwell

A tremendously important question is how all of these different actor corporations, groups, and people have been so well coordinated. Fallen angels, principalities, and powers, comes to mind. “Tough times, coming on the earth, separating waste from worth.”

Tim Drayton
Tim Drayton
Jun 15, 2020 2:56 PM

I am not a supporter of the dominant narrative, but in arguing against it we must be careful to get our facts right. I clicked the link glossed “New study finds nearly all coronavirus patients put on ventilators died” and see the article claims about one-quarter died, which is hardly “nearly all.”

sharon marlowe
sharon marlowe
Jun 15, 2020 3:18 PM
Reply to  Tim Drayton

Correct. I’ve no idea why they did that?

Tim Drayton
Tim Drayton
Jun 15, 2020 4:24 PM
Reply to  sharon marlowe

Just as another example, I saw the following otherwise excellent analysis:
https://hectordrummond.com/2020/06/05/jeremy-harris-please-just-stop
ripped to shreds on another forum by lockdown fundamentalists because the author, incorrectly, stated the population of Sweden to be 8,800,000, when it is actually over 10 million.

sharon marlowe
sharon marlowe
Jun 15, 2020 4:34 PM
Reply to  Tim Drayton

Excellent, Tim Drayton. Errors should be exposed immediately by us. Look at the down votes we have. Those are just thoughtless sycophants who won’t take two seconds to check references. Keep up the good work:)

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 15, 2020 5:41 PM
Reply to  Tim Drayton

Got you a -2 votes and counting though…

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jun 16, 2020 11:24 AM
Reply to  Tim Drayton

My suspicions were aroused at the mention of 25% mortality. Even routine mechanical ventilator usage pre-Covid returns a higher percentage of deaths compared to survivors. So I looked at the detail of the article.
 
The purpose of the article, including the headline, appears to be to deceive the reader. It is very poorly compiled and written – it appears that the last section is an existing extract from an original study, and the first part of the article is where newly available figures have been introduced (in order to disguise the severity of deaths on ventilators?).
 
The last section of the article includes the following:
 
 

Mortality rates for patients aged 18-65 were 76.4%. For the next oldest age group aged 66 years and older, patients receiving mechanical ventilation recorded a 97.2% mortality rate”

 
How does that equate to 25% in the first part of the article? Well it does if you pointlessly compare the number of people dying on ventilators with the number of people still alive on ventilators in hospitals, (nearly?) all of whom may well go on to die. That is what they have done in the article.
 
 
 

Denis Rancourt
Denis Rancourt
Jun 15, 2020 2:42 PM

Check out my article “All-cause mortality during COVID-19: No plague and a likely signature of mass homicide by government response”, presently on ResearchGate. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341832637_All-cause_mortality_during_COVID-19_No_plague_and_a_likely_signature_of_mass_homicide_by_government_response 

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 15, 2020 5:37 PM
Reply to  Denis Rancourt

Check out my article … presently on ResearchGate.

Practically anyone can publish on ResearchGate, the Facebook for nerds. Even I meet the requirements to join should I so wish. And once you’ve got a member profile you can publish any old shit. I’m sure the yokels in the Conspiracy League will be entranced to find its operating millions come in as investments from and co-ordinated by down-home academic folks like Peter ‘Bilderberg’ Thiel, Bill ‘Melinda” Gates and similar jukebox favourites.

Counter Economist
Counter Economist
Jun 15, 2020 6:01 PM
Reply to  Denis Rancourt

Good article Denis, thanks

sharon marlowe
sharon marlowe
Jun 15, 2020 1:52 PM

Don’t you just love how people tell you that wearing masks is basically for the concern of humankind, and if you don’t wear one they hope you’ll die? lol

Objective
Objective
Jun 15, 2020 5:44 PM
Reply to  sharon marlowe

Just like venomous lefties who threaten to kill you if your not more compassionate toward others 😉

sharon marlowe
sharon marlowe
Jun 15, 2020 5:55 PM
Reply to  Objective

If left wingers do that, then they were never left wingers. They they were liars.

Objective
Objective
Jun 15, 2020 6:05 PM
Reply to  sharon marlowe

No not the old left, the new left, the old left are the new right, the old right are the far right, the far left disappeared up their own backsides and came out as the liberal left, the liberal left are the centre right…………oh I don’t know it all got to confusing so i became a conservative libertarian socialist with a small c until socalism became the new left & conservatism to far to the right, so now I only vote for myself who some accuse me of being an objectivist. sigh!

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
Jun 15, 2020 9:05 PM
Reply to  Objective

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 6:41 PM
Reply to  sharon marlowe

I would reply that I am not wearing a mask out of concern for humanity, and that the feeling is mutual.

Kalen
Kalen
Jun 15, 2020 1:39 PM

Yes, even N95 face mask does not stop virulent droplets from entering human body amid prolonged exposure as massive nosocomial infections indicate but in case of SC2, trying to stop mass exposure is not only futile but may be counterproductive if one consider minuscule inherent lethality of SC2.
 
In fact not to be fully exposed may make one more vulnerable to SC2 driven disease by attempting to limit or prevent such exposure if one consider plausible, supported by evidence SC2 infection models I.e. long path from exposure to SC2 droplets to infection of human cells.
 
Many people are resisting infection as virus is simply killed/deactivated/impaired unable to bind with human cell receptors by general T Cells Memory immune cells present in healthy people saliva and sinus excretions in mouth or nose areas, never infecting any human cells at all. 
 
In many models upon swallowing of such deactivated virus excessive amount of viral RNA is decomposed in stomach and guts and the rest serves as RNA blueprint for production of specific antibodies. That is why fragments of SC2 RNA were detected in sewage sysyems in France already in December as they retained old water samples.
 
T Cells Memory acts as defense mechanism as it allows T Cell to attack pathogen which RNA or DNA structure does not need to be identical, as specific antibodies require, but only 80% to 90% similarity to previous pathogens encountered within year or so in a sense allowing to follow mutation path of viruses or small changes to any pathogens but only if people are continuously exposed to such seasonal pathogens. Leaving sterile, protected life increases danger of infections by respiratory viruses like SC2.
 
The fact is that SC2 RNA genome is at least 90% similar to SC1 RNA and 80% similar to some common cold coronaviruses. And that is probably why children continuously exposed to common cold coronavirus group seem to be resistant to SC2 infections.
 
In other words it takes certain level of exposure to SC2 for General immune system to activate itself, to disable virus and then needs be generate antibodies to fight the virus throughout the body, like in upper or lower respiratory tract virus may have entered. If exposure occurs only into lower respiratory not in upper respiratory track of mouth and nose then immune response can be dangerously delayed making disease worse. 
 
Health of human organism is critical in cases of respiratory infections and hence unhealthy and old must be initially completely isolated from exposure (no masks can do that) in order to improve their general health and boost their immune system, and only then exposed to virus to acquire immunity. Some small, percentage of very sick people where not improvement of immune system is possible must wait until local population immunity is reached so they reengage into social interaction protected by immunity of those around them. The lockdown delayed or prevented that natural process from occurring not diminishing but prolonging epidemic threat.
 
In vast majority of cases general immune system efficiently resists SC2 infection of human cells even after prolonged exposure with or without masks as people never become carriers of active virus so no social distancing is required. in such cases face mask itself may perhaps become carrier of those viruses. In fact really deadly viruses require not masks but autonomous breathing systems never exposed to deadly aerosol
 

Kalen
Kalen
Jun 15, 2020 1:32 PM

Meet new ZH. Peddling MSM propaganda lies, fear mongering, promoting tabloid, sensationalism, in most part abandoning investigative journalism.

ZH HEADLINES in last 36 hours:

Florida Reports Another Record Jump In New Cases As Global COVID-19 Count Nears 8 Million: Live Updates

South Carolina Reports 4th Straight Record Jump As COVID-19 Cases Surge Across The South: Live Updates

China Confirms Largest One-Day Jump In COVID-19 Cases Since April: Live Updates

Man Barely Survives COVID-19 Only To Be Hit With $1.1 Million Hospital Bill

China Blames Imported Salmon For Biggest COVID-19 Cluster Since February, Major Indian City Revives Lockdown: Live Updates

Florida Reports Another Record Jump In New Cases As Global COVID-19 Count Nears 8 Million: Live Updates

Futures Tumble Below 3,000 After China Warns Of “High Virus Resurgence Risk”

And more fear peddling and empty sensationalism.

Wait but they are not all bad.

60% Of People Naturally Resistant To SARS-COV2, New Study Reveals

Lockdown Regime Deaths & The True Cost Of LOKIN-20

Oops! those two were OFFG articles reposted on ZH.

It is very disturbing. As it seems there is no hope for newly unblocked ZH.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Jun 15, 2020 1:52 PM
Reply to  Kalen

Instructive. This is how the alt media is taken down, one site at a time.
The story that got ZH banned from Twitter, was also the story which caused ZH to ban me: I said it was written by a not very intelligent intelligence bod. It did not read like the language of a journalist but that of a bureaucrat. Less than a minute after posting I was banned.
 
So, who owns ZH? Wikipedia says ABC Media Limited, but this site says the company was dissolved in 2018. https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/company/05008782-abc-media-limited. Interestingly, one of the mutual companies on the page above is Alphabet Soup Digital Ltd. which is also dissolved.
 
Six months ago Drudge Report was bought by an individual directly connected to Google/Alphabet.
 
Who’s pushing the psychological programming? In the UK we know it is a veritable alphabet soup of “disinfo” units including the Rapid Response Unit/ National Security Communications Tea / 13th Signals / 77th Brigade. We know the line they’re pushing (leaked to UK Column) and we see it regurgitated at the other end by the BBC/Corporatist Media.
 
In the U.S. the military/CIA has sat directly in the CNN newsroom in the past. Wikileaks has exposed newspaper journalists sending their copy to the CIA for approval (and a similar MO in Germany was exposed by Udo Ulfkotte). But I suspect a more direct line of propaganda is operating under Operation Covid.
 

Kalen
Kalen
Jun 15, 2020 2:04 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

I “like” the best ZH story from China about IMPORTED salmon violating social distancing and spreading COVID. Is this new conspiracy theory about inter-species war?

Absurdity after absurdity from former website for rational people who reject propaganda pabulum.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Jun 15, 2020 2:11 PM
Reply to  Kalen

Maybe the salmon caused the ‘Largest One-Day Jump In Covid’.

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 6:44 PM
Reply to  Kalen

“The salmon mousse!”

ame
ame
Jun 15, 2020 2:44 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

Neil Saunders showed in easy read format 4 years back how the alt right was ‘all brought and paid for’ so for Cv19 all they got to do it get there ‘all brought and paid for’ to repeat China and they virtually all did.
and remember this was in a Conservative government front faces so all this voting for the other partys is endorsing socialism communism is again aimed at brainwashed voters by brainwashed voters

 
 
 
 

gordon
gordon
Jun 15, 2020 3:28 PM
Reply to  Kalen

 
borged long ago
 
zero 2 zion hedge

Reg
Reg
Jun 15, 2020 1:24 PM

Conditioning people for their new life in the land of lunacy. The Primark way. Perhaps in the not-too-distant future they’ll introduce vaccine booths for those driven insane with fear of the “invisible enemy”.
 

Whyfor
Whyfor
Jun 15, 2020 1:15 PM

First, masks were ridiculed by the biowar attackers, now by the “no planers at the wtc”/covid is just a hoax claimers?

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 2:12 PM
Reply to  Whyfor

did the towers get brought down by a pathogenic germ? by what other mechanism could it spread to building 7 or does the terrain theory make more sense?

rachel
rachel
Jun 15, 2020 2:37 PM
Reply to  rachel

all 3 towers had explosives n the planes were incidental to the redevelopment project? a decoy to distract attention from the impending demolition?

Louis N. Proyect
Louis N. Proyect
Jun 15, 2020 1:07 PM

More from Rancourt:
 
I argue that global warming (climate change, climate chaos, etc.) will not become humankind’s greatest threat until the sun has its next hiccup in a billion years or more (in the very unlikely scenario that we are still around), (2) that global warming is presently nowhere near being the planet’s most deadly environmental scourge, and (3) that government action and political will cannot measurably or significantly ameliorate global climate in the present world.
 
http://activistteacher.blogspot.com/2007/02/global-warming-truth-or-dare.html

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
Jun 15, 2020 1:24 PM

The anthropogenic global warming hypothesis is flawed, as is obvious to any scientifically literate person who is familiar with the data. Since the beginning of the twentieth century, carbon dioxide constantly increasing, global average temperature had a warming trend to 1940, a cooling trend to 1975, a warming trend to 1998, and since then no statistically significant warming or cooling. The hypothesis holds that increased carbon dioxide causes increased average global temperature. The data show this to be wrong. In science, when the data disagrees with the hypothesis, it is the hypothesis that is changed, rather than the data as people like Michael Mann are wont to do.

Howard
Howard
Jun 15, 2020 3:21 PM
Reply to  Steve Hayes

So are you suggesting they just made it up when they said, year after year since 2000 except for a couple years, that it was “the warmest on record?” And month by month as well? And the wildfires in Australia, even in Siberia – fabricated? And enough ice melting in Greenland to detect features of the terrain – a practical joke? And the methane eruptions, particularly in the East Siberian Sea – just part of Russiagate?
 
Either things are happening around the world which support the overall hypothesis; or they’re not. Stick around, it won’t be long till we find out for sure. Then you or I one will be eating some crow.

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
Jun 15, 2020 3:44 PM
Reply to  Howard

I did not say that they just made anything up. In fact, I referred specifically to their data. And those data, not only do not support the hypothesis, they show it to be flawed.
 
Perhaps, I could suggest that you look at the global average temperature for the past hundred years on a proper temperature scale. If you do, you will see that the average global temperature is remarkably stable at 14C, sometimes a little above, sometimes a little below.

Neal
Neal
Jun 17, 2020 2:55 AM
Reply to  Howard

Standard bushfire season here in Oz, exacerbated by too much ground fuel that hadn’t been burnt off in the cooler months. Gumtrees and conifers burn hotter due to the natural oils.

Dave Lawton
Dave Lawton
Jun 15, 2020 4:35 PM
Reply to  Steve Hayes

When Climate scientists I have spoken with cannot even explain correctly how energy is transferred from a battery via switch to a light bulb. When they do I will listen to them.
 

bob
bob
Jun 15, 2020 12:54 PM

who exactly is Susan Michie?
 
Oh, I know, she’s in the SAGE group
 
and she’s written this –
 
https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-122
 
“Changing behaviour is necessary to address many of the threats facing human populations. However, identifying behaviour change interventions likely to be effective in particular contexts as a basis for improving them presents a major challenge. The Human Behaviour-Change Project harnesses the power of artificial intelligence and behavioural science to organise global evidence about behaviour change to predict outcomes in common and unknown behaviour change scenarios.”
 
Do you still think it’s important to wear a mask or walk 2 metres behind somebody else?

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 7:08 PM
Reply to  bob

Here’s a pic of the Wellcome Trust’s building in London (I think it’s near Euston station?)…. Nothing unusual there at all.
 
comment image

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 7:26 PM
Reply to  Almondson

That image didnt’t work
 
this should
 
https://imgur.com/a/yFGs6MC

Almondson
Almondson
Jun 15, 2020 7:31 PM
Reply to  bob

Here’s a pic of the facade of the Wellcome Trust building in London…. They clearly think very highly of themselves.
 
comment image

bob
bob
Jun 15, 2020 12:18 PM

Heat scanners tracking you in the shopping centre, people roundabouts, crossing points and Social Distancing Champions. Welcome to Orwell’s depiction of the future.
 


Mo' Gabby
Mo' Gabby
Jun 15, 2020 12:34 PM
Reply to  bob

Seen in the clip…A ‘social distancing champion’….
He got the Gold at the ‘Sole Olympox for judging 2m within 99.99%.
 

Objective
Objective
Jun 15, 2020 1:06 PM
Reply to  Mo' Gabby

I’m boycotting every business complicit with this crime, lets see how quickly they stop believing this nonsense.
 
Warning it wont be effective if i do it on my own, because i never went to these capitalist hubs anyway LOL.
 
SAY NO!

Mo' Gabby
Mo' Gabby
Jun 15, 2020 1:37 PM
Reply to  Objective

Well, if they think that will help them compete with online they are deluded.

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jun 15, 2020 3:07 PM
Reply to  Objective

I’d read on a local social networking site that the local Lidl was ‘appalling’: “not regulating people in and out, allowing people to mingle in the shop, staff included, without social distancing or masks, no direction markers on the floor”. ” How irresponsible. We should all boycott it or write to their management to complain”. Well, that was it. Next day, I was down there like a shot! And it was the most pleasurable and civilised experience in the last three months. People were clearly trying to respectfully keep a distance from others but it wasn’t paranoid behaviour.
 
The checkout staff were behind perspex screens but they were happy to accept cash payments. The only concession to the measures was that if I wanted a receipt I had to take it myself from the machine by the perspex, but that could well have been intended to protect the customers. There was no obsessive cleaning of trolleys. If you had to pass by someone you did so without a fuss. I witnessed no arguments although I was aware that some of those complaining claimed to have had words with people.
 
I can’t guarantee that all Lidl stores are adopting the same approach.

BBoru23
BBoru23
Jun 15, 2020 4:29 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Lidl where I live is the same. Absolutely brilliant. Not had to queue up once and not being molested by the ‘social distancing champions’ employed elsewhere. I used to shop in Sainsbury’s and Morrisons, they are of course full blown bought and paid for so I will not be returning my business there. Lidl is the way forward for me.

Objective
Objective
Jun 15, 2020 5:06 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

The social distancing fascism wont last when businesses like lidl etc see what it does to their profit margin, fewer customers mean lower profits. Limiting how many people & making them queue isn’t good for business but we can help it along by boycotting the worst offenders.

Norbertrand
Norbertrand
Jun 15, 2020 5:07 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Yes indeed! The same situation at the 2 Lidl’s around our way especially the smaller ‘express’ type branch. Highly recommended for insanity free shopping. A few token stickers on the floor but no-one takes any notice.