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REVIEW: Is there life after death? A review essay of James and Whitehead on Life after Death by David Ray Griffin

Edward Curtin

Life is entwined with death from the start, for death is the price we must pay for being born, even though we don’t choose it, which may be why some people who are very angry at the deal, decide to choose how and when they will die, as if they are getting revenge on someone who dealt them a rotten hand, even if they don’t believe in the someone.

The meaning of death, and whether humans do or do not survive it in some form, has always obsessed people, from the average person to the great artists and thinkers.  Death is the mother of philosophy and all the arts and sciences.

It is arguably also what motivates so much human behavior, from keeping busy to waging war to trying to hit a little white ball with a long stick down a lot of grass into a hole in the ground and doing it again and again.

Death is the mother of distractions.

It is also what we cannot ultimately control, although a lot of violent and crazy rich people try.  The thought of it drives many people mad.

No one is immune from wondering about it.  We are born dying, and from an early age we ask why.  Children often explicitly ask, but as they grow older the explicit usually retreats into implicity and avoidance because of adults’ need to deny death or their lack of answers about it that makes sense.

David Ray Griffin is not a child or an adult in denial.  He has spent his life in an intrepid search for truth in many realms – philosophy, theology, politics, etc.  He is an esteemed author of over forty books, an elderly man in his eighties who has spent his life writing about God, and also in the last twenty years a series of outstanding books on the attacks of September 11, 2001 and the demonic nature of U.S. history.  He fits T.S Eliot’s description in The Four Quartets:

Old men ought to be explorers
Here and there does not matter
We must be still and still moving
Into another intensity
For a further union, a deeper communion
Though the dark cold and the empty desolation,
The wave cry, the wind cry, the vast waters
Of the petrel and the porpoise. In my end is my beginning

In his latest book, which is another beginning, James and Whitehead on Life after Death, he explores the age-old question of whether there is life after death and concludes that there probably is.

It is a conclusion that is arguably shared in some way still by many people today but is clearly rejected by most intellectuals and highly schooled people, as Griffin writes:

The traditional basis for hope was belief in life after death. Modern culture, however, has so diminished this belief that today, in educated circles, it is largely assumed that life after death is an outmoded belief….The dominant view among science-based modern intellectuals is that the idea of life after death is not one to take seriously. That conclusion, however, is virtually implicit in the presuppositions of these intellectuals, such as Corliss Lamont. According to these modern intellectuals, there is no non-sensory perception; the world is basically mechanistic; and the world contains nothing but physical bodies and forces.

Griffin argues the opposite.  His book is devoted to refuting these presuppositions with the help of William James and Alfred North Whitehead.  It is not an easy read, and is not aimed at regular people who would find it rough going, except for the middle chapters on mediums, extrasensory perception, telepathy, apparitions, near-death out-of-body experiences, and reincarnation – the stuff of tabloid nonsense but which in Griffin’s scholarly hands is treated very intelligently.

Moreover, these chapters are crucial to his overall argument.  However, the book will mainly appeal to the intellectuals whom Griffin wishes to convince of their errors, or to those who agree with him.  It is scholarly.

Without entering into all the nuances of his rather complicated thesis, I will try to summarize his key points.

Griffin is what is called a process theologian and his work of philosophical theology is intimately linked with scientific thinking and the idea of evolution, even as it rejects the modern mechanistic worldview for a “postmodern” cosmology based on recent science, in particular, the work of microbiology. 

Although he is a Christian, the present book does not presuppose any Christian beliefs such as revelation, nor, for that matter, specific beliefs of any religion, although he does presuppose (and partially explains in chapter eleven) the existence of a “divine creator” or “divine reality” who is responsible for the evolutionary process that is the expression of a cosmic purpose with the “fine-tuning” of the universe.

This “Holy Reality” is important to his argument.

The thought of the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead underlies everything Griffin writes here.  Whitehead is known as the creator of process philosophy, which, to simplify, is the idea that all reality is not made up of things or bits of inert matter, no matter how small (e.g. atoms, brain molecules) or large (people or trees) interacting in some blind way with other bits of matter, but consists of conscious processes of ongoing experiences.

In other words, reality is constant change, flowing experiences with types of awareness and intention and the free creativity to change.  Humans are, therefore, ongoing experiments, not static entities.

Following Whitehead, Griffin has coined the term “panexperientialism,” meaning that all reality is comprised of experiences.  It is worth noting that the etymology of the words experience and experiment are the same – Latin, experiri, to try.  Life is therefore a trying.  As some might say, it is trying to be born and to know you will die.

Griffin begins by noting the importance of life after death and why many argue against it.  He states how he will avoid many of their objections and how he will show how the valid ones dissolve under his analysis.  He promptly writes that “Microbiology has dissolved the mind-body problem.”

He bases this on the work of acclaimed evolutionary biologist Lynn Margulis, among others, and her theory of symbiogenesis:

Her theory of symbiogenesis was based on the idea that all living organisms are sentient. Saying that her world view ‘recognizes the perceptive capacity of all live beings,’ she held that ‘consciousness is a property of all living cells,’ even the most elementary ones: ‘Bacteria are conscious. These bacterial beings have been around since the origin of life.’

Margulis’s point is consonant with Whitehead’s philosophy of organism, meaning that all physical reality possesses a degree of perceptive experience, although Griffin says “some of us may prefer to save the term ‘consciousness’ for higher types of experience.”  The fundamental point is that all of physical reality experiences, or, as he quotes William James, “is a piece of full experience.”  In layman’s language as applied to people, the mind and body are one.

Having laid down this scientific/philosophical foundation in the first four chapters (and in two more detailed appendices), Griffin turns to psychical research and how Whitehead and James believed in the need for such research and how James’s radical empiricism supported the reality of parapsychological events as did Whitehead, who accepted telepathy.  Griffin writes:

Like James, Whitehead affirmed the reality of non-sensory perception. Moreover, besides affirming its reality,Whitehead argued that non-sensory perception is fundamental, so that sensory perception is secondary. Far from being primary, sensory perception is derivative from non-sensory perception….Accordingly, there is nothing supernatural about telepathy; one becomes aware of the content of other minds through the same non-sensory mode of perception that tells us about causation, the real existence of physical objects, memory, and time.

(Let me interject the simple but important point that it follows that in order to have any perceptions one must exist in physical form.)

Turning to actual psychical research that was promoted by the establishment of The Society For Psychical Research (SPR) in London in 1882, Griffin, as previously mentioned, devotes four key chapters to mediums, telepathy, extrasensory perception, near-death out-of-body experiences, apparitions, and reincarnation.

This research and its findings, while rejected by the modern scientific worldview, is widespread and quite believable, in various degrees.  Griffin shows why this is so.  The truth of such psychic experiences is hard to refute since there are so many examples, which Griffin gives.  He would agree with James who said:

The concrete evidence for most of the ‘psychic’ phenomenon under discussion is good enough to hang a man twenty times over.

And James, of course, the longtime professor at Harvard University, is revered as one of the United States’ most brilliant thinkers, not a fringe nut-case.  This is also true for many of the others Griffin calls on to show how solid is the evidence for much psychic phenomena.  Most readers will find these chapters very engaging and the most accessible.

Finally, Griffin explains why the idea of a fine-tuned universe makes the most sense and how it dovetails with the belief in God, even as it runs counter to the mechanistic, materialistic, and atheistic view of many intellectuals. He writes:

The new worldview advocated in this book requires a new understanding of the divine reality. Whitehead and [Charles] Hartshorne [an American process philosopher and theologian who developed Whitehead’s work] advocated a view of the universe known as ‘panentheism.’ The term means ‘all-in-God.’  Panentheism [the world is in God] is thus distinguished from pantheism, on the one hand, and traditional theism, on the other.

Based on these factors – microbiology, Whitehead and James’s philosophy, psychic research, etc. – Griffin concludes that there is ample evidence for life after death, not in the physical sense but in that of psyche or soul or spirit. 

He says that he has “long believed in life after death,” but that in offering this book with his argument for life after death as our “only empirical ground for hope” since we all die, he does so reluctantly.  “I suggest this answer with fear and trembling, knowing that most of my friends and other people whose opinions I respect will hate this answer.”

That they would be surprised by his conclusion is a bit perplexing since he has long believed in life after death.  I surely do not hate his answer and believe that he has made a strong case for his long-held belief.

I share it, but differently.  And I think that many of his scientifically-oriented friends and others may indeed agree with him more than he thinks, for his argument is rooted, not just in philosophy and theology, but in science.

It is based on the idea of the non-duality between mind and matter, with the difference being that for him matter is conscious and for them it is not. They may come to accept the recent findings of microbiology and reject the “assumption of materialists and dualists alike” that “neurons are insentient.”  They may reject some of their own presuppositions. 

For these debates take place at the highest level of abstraction where intellectuals dwell, and accepting one new scientific paradigm does not necessarily lead to belief in life after death.  Far from it.  That is when God enters the picture.

Griffin wisely uses hardcore commonsense beliefs to refute dualism and materialism.  But I propose that there is another hardcore, commonsense belief that he ignores: that people know and feel that they are flesh and bones.  Out of this feeling comes our conceptions about life, not the other way around.  The Spanish philosopher Miguel De Unamuno, in The Tragic Sense of Life,  put it this way:

Our philosophy – that is, our mode of understanding or not understanding the world and life – springs from our feeling toward life itself …. Man is said to be a reasoning animal.  I do not know why he has not been defined as an affective or feeling animal …. And thus, in a philosopher, what must needs most concern us is the man.

David Griffin, relying on John Cobb’s term, says the “resurrection of the soul” is a better term for life after death than the more traditional ones of “immortality of the soul” and the “resurrection of the body,” since it splits the difference, thereby taking a bit of truth from both terms.

But as I understand his argument in this book, he is doing what he cautions against via Whitehead: “… he [Whitehead] said that one must avoid ‘negations of what in practice is presupposed.’”  Griffin’s presupposition is that both dualism and materialism are both wrong and panexperientialism is correct.  He writes:

Panexperientialism is based upon the supposition that we can and should think about the units comprising the physical world by analogy with our own experience, which we know from within. The supposition, in other words, is that the apparent difference in kind between our experience, or our ‘mind,’ and the entities comprising our bodies is an illusion, resulting from the fact that we know them in two different ways. We know our minds from within, by identity and memory, whereas in sensory perception of our bodies, as in looking in a mirror, we know them from without. Once we realize this, there is no reason to assume them really to be different in kind. [my emphasis]

So if that is true, I ask this question: why, if body and soul/mind are inseparable and are what people are, why is it necessary to argue for their divorce in death?  If God created them as one at birth, could not God recreate them as one in death?  Why Griffin concludes that this is impossible or would require a miracle escapes me.  Maybe contemplating it is a bit too pedestrian and non-philosophical.

Despite my point above, James and Whitehead on Life after Death is another quintessentially brilliant volume from Griffin’s pen.  It forces you to think about difficult but essential matters.

It may not be easy reading, but it may force you to imaginatively ask yourself, what, if anything were possible and life continued after death, you would want such a life to be like.  Maybe the man David Ray Griffin wants it to be non-bodily.  Maybe many do and can’t imagine an alternative.  But I can, and I hope for bodily resurrection.

It’s just what I am.

Philosophy and theology can get very abstract and leave regular people in the dust.  Another poet comes to mind, a counterpoint to T.S. Eliot, William Butler Yates, who wrote in “An Acre of Green Grass”:

Grant me an old man’s frenzy,
Myself I must remake
Till I am Timon and Lear
Or that William Blake
Who beat upon the wall
Till Truth obeyed his call;

A mind Michael Angelo knew
That can pierce the clouds,
Or inspired by frenzy
Shake the dead in their shrouds;
Forgotten else by mankind,
An old man’s eagle mind.

I would love to read what a frenzied David Ray Griffin has to say, now that I have read his philosophical logic. I can’t help agreeing with Unamuno:

And thus, in a philosopher, what must needs most concern us is the man

The man of flesh, blood, and bones.

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torat
torat
Jun 24, 2022 5:51 PM

This was a wonderful read.

Doubter
Doubter
Jun 23, 2022 12:34 PM

Every civilisation ever.
EVERY civilisation EVER has an origin story.
An arbitrary theory to fit the facts because humans can’t bear not to understand why they’re here. 
All of them turned out to be “nonsense”. 
I’m so glad our civilisation has finally found the truth and we know where we really come from and why we are here. 
The arrogance of all those previous generations!

Human values
Human values
Jun 21, 2022 5:32 PM

Life (God) is eternal. God (Spirit) is eternal. Spirit life (Soul) is eternal. Soul is the True You.

God is the Creator. Spirit creates matter. What is created is not the Creator. The Creator has always existed, will always exist, being Eternal. This means that God is always and in every circumstance present, available, good, all-knowing. God never ceases to be God.

Reincarnation of the Soul works because life is eternal. It’s not a punishment or a test. The Soul is already the Soul, just like God is God. The only confusion is when the Ego or False-self is believed to be real.

The collective insanity that is present now means that every lie (= not true) is being exposed. And the solution to this problem is available immediately with the Truth of the Lord.

When people don’t know what words mean, they are easily led astray. But God is always all-knowing, so trusting God is what works. No beliefs or books needed, since every Soul already knows God.

This realization happens when the False-self is seen as false.

It falls off. What is true and real prevails.
 

M.Aurelius
M.Aurelius
Jun 21, 2022 4:46 AM

Old timers used to say technology and all that was demonic. That it would make your fingers turn the color of grapes and rob you of your sight, your intuition and craft.

mik
mik
Jun 21, 2022 1:06 AM

I just read this, blockade of Kaliningrad….why?…because things ain’t crazy enough.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/eu-just-implemented-risky-anti-russia-measure-could-trigger-ww3-few-are-taking-notice

Recently I’ve seen pope, yeah that creature of a catholic, said about patriarch Kirill:
“The Patriarch cannot transform himself into Putin’s altar boy”.
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2022/05/13/banning-the-russian-orthodox-church/
Don’t forget, that creature from vatikan is the Infallible, according to dogma.
Like things ain’t dozens of times over crazy-enough, a supposed moral authority comes up with such a drivel…on top of his other sins. And he is the closest to Heaven for Catholics. In their shoes I would feel betrayed.

All these, for me over the top, a myriad of stories last several years….like a roller-coaster orbiting close to the event horizon of the abyss/Chaos. Then, it makes a lot of sense to talk about god, eternal life and so on. We have to throw our gravity anchor as far away as possible…maybe infinity, God.
The only other field of human endeavour that has infinity, beside religion, is mathematics. Another similarity is, they both operate with absolute certainty. Maths gets certainty from axioms and procedure, religion/god from faith. But mathematics are “less” than god, proven by Goedel’s theorems that claim: mathematical theory powerful enough to express algebra cannot be complete and consistent at the same time. God certainly is complete and consistent all the time.
That is just for believers in fairy tales, would probably be response of average “atheist” who don’t recognize faith should have a place in people’s lives. But they probably believe in science, not knowing they actually endorse scientism, nowadays biggest religion. A belief that science will get god by the balls. In the mean time they will pretend they don’t know that queen of sciences said long ago it cannot be complete and consistent in absolute terms. But this certainly can’t have any corollaries for science at all. Not even for philosophy, really???

In a heated debate about Ukraine a guy said: I’m against all tyrants. Concur, if tyrants in sheep’s clothing are included. What about tyrannical systems? What about democracy that is actually democrazy (mass formation)? Why people aren’t simply disgusted, that’s the only appropriate emotional reaction……Yeah, but people still massively participate in delusional rituals of elections. If that is not at least a little bit of Faith in Action par excellence, then I will decide there is no god. World Views differ, but they all have common ingredient: Faith. I think faith-less human being is impossible, we all have truths that we will defend, if need be, with: That is how it is. Maybe some day anthropologists will say for our era that faith regressed into unconsciousness.

“But I can, and I hope for bodily resurrection.”
I would say what is the difference if:
“We know our minds from within, by identity and memory, whereas in sensory perception of our bodies, as in looking in a mirror, we know them from without. Once we realize this, there is no reason to assume them really to be different in kind. [my emphasis]”
But that’s my metaphysics.

I think non-anthropomorphic approach of Taoism is better suited for panexperientialism and panentheism.

The tao that can be told

is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named

is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.

Naming is the origin

of all particular things.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210423111630/http://thetaoteching.com/taoteching1.html

Also, from here is harder to astray into what god could do.

mik
mik
Jun 21, 2022 2:39 PM
Reply to  mik

I have to nail down pope and catholicism more….it is about, are we talking about god or what.

Pope is a sinner, I’ve pointed out a particular one above. Sin of vanity and arrogance and he failed in what could be deemed as his mission: peace and love. In the meantime many people died and so on.
Pope, in the meantime, had a confession, maybe he recalled the sin and if so, he got redemption and penance of two rosaries. He did the penance on auto-pilot, no problem, after years of practice he is able of multitasking while praying…and who knows, maybe he was daydreaming about the latest gorgeous russian porn-star giving her ass for the first time…so hot, animalic… (and hoped they won’t ban them too).
Anyhow, if he confessed he is now free like a bird.

No, no, sins must first pass clearing and redemption on Earth, then they will be redempted in heaven. Otherwise there can be no justice, hence no god.
Confession is very Perverse Ritual.

Many times literally perverse in a colloquial sense, I know that from experience, mein and shared. Yeah….priests are helping young souls with targeted questions for assisted recall…any sins of lust or relish???

Do I have any support for my “blasphemy”
I think I have

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.

(Tao Te Ching 38)

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 20, 2022 5:34 AM

Bodily resurrection makes no sense – at least not for man as he is today.
To believers, Jesus was a unique phenomenon.

It just wouldn’t be a body if the chemicals in it did not revert to their elemental, double-decomposing selves when there is no longer any life force to shape them.

In any case, why come back to a body which has served its purpose for many decades and is worn out? To watch it wear out again…?

You can be fond of a car, but when its day is done, you have to move on.
You can also rather like your own body, especially if it serves you well, but it still isn’t you.

Viridis
Viridis
Jun 19, 2022 11:03 PM

“Those who do not receive the resurrection while they live, when they die will receive nothing”

From the Nag Hammadi Scrolls. “Receive “here does not refer to a doctrine but to experience and initiation to the mystery.

A true mystery is by its nature mysterious and does not resolve to an explanation. The question “Is there life after death” is a non sequitur that has led to an epic waste of words and time.

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 20, 2022 5:38 AM
Reply to  Viridis

A lot of truth in that comment.
Initiation into mysteries is not something generally talked about these days, although there are, of course, our secret societies.

niko
niko
Jun 19, 2022 7:50 PM

Is there life before death? If the transhumanists have their way, definitely not, and “trailing clouds of glory” (Wordsworth), transmigration of souls, and whatever other ideas our mortal minds might imagine regarding immortality, before or after, will be settled by cyborgs programmed to no longer dream of any “undiscovered country” (Shakespeare) beyond the tasks they’ve been assigned. I suppose when all humanity faces extinction, you can’t help returning to questions of meaning, like what’s it all for, that are as old, and unsettled, as humanity itself.

dom irritant
dom irritant
Jun 20, 2022 10:00 AM
Reply to  niko

our aim is wakefulness
our enemy is dreamless sleep
t.o.p.y.

Paul Vonharnish
Paul Vonharnish
Jun 19, 2022 3:29 PM

Well… Erm… On the one hand we have existence. On the other we have non-existence. So even non-existence, exists… Existence is a continuum. Try some…

Voz 0db
Voz 0db
Jun 19, 2022 3:06 PM

FH… “we don’t choose it” we don’t choose neither. We are born, we degenerate… we die.

Why the degenerate uman animal brain (via Thought) still wastes so many resources with this nonsense is what needs to be resolved in order for uman animals to live a more balanced existence.

Steph Amson
Steph Amson
Jun 19, 2022 2:28 PM

The ‘proof’ for me of life after death is dreams. We see and feel yet our eyes our shut and we are unconscious, yet the spirit in us still operates intelligently. The language of dreams is symbolic, and poorly understood. Even knowing this it can still be confusing and hard to interpret, and understandably written off as meaningless, but with some effort dreams reveal an objective reflection of our soul.

Voz 0db
Voz 0db
Jun 19, 2022 3:07 PM
Reply to  Steph Amson

C’mon! Without a live brain you can’t keep on Thinking while sleeping. “Dreams” just means you aren’t having a proper sleep time/recovery.

Howard
Howard
Jun 20, 2022 3:29 AM
Reply to  Steph Amson

I’m convinced we dream for one reason and one reason only: rapid eye movement. That is, to keep our eye muscles from becoming stiff, as our other bodily muscles do in sleep. The actual content of dreams is irrelevant.

Sebastian
Sebastian
Jun 20, 2022 4:46 PM
Reply to  Steph Amson

@Steph

I recommend ‘An Experiment with Time’ by J.W. Dunne.

Jacques
Jacques
Jun 19, 2022 1:05 PM

There is 50% probability that there is some form of existence after earthly death and 100% certainty that in the affirmative case, it will be a completely different existence from what you’re experiencing now.

So, this is your one and only chance to experience life in the body whereof you are currently the possessor. Even if there is such thing as reincarnation and you’ll make it back here from the other side, you might be assigned a repulsive body with a disgusting face along the lines of Klaus “Anal” Schwab or Billy Peddler of Shitty Software. You might even reincarnate as an asshole of Justine Turdo’s kind. Who knows how this shit works – I doubt that you’ll have a choice. If reincarnation works, the fuckers have surely managed to hijack it over the years like they have hijacked everything else. What assurance does one have that you don’t have to wear a fucking mask and get fuckcccinated in Heaven, eh?

Anyway, I came across this song when a bunch of people were dancing to it in Ottawa during the Freedom Convoy. The theorists among you will surely find it simplistic, but I think that it’s right on the button and says it all as regards the subject matter of this article

Howard
Howard
Jun 20, 2022 3:45 AM
Reply to  Jacques

Not that I necessarily accept reincarnation. But it is my understanding that in reincarnating, you would not go from a higher plateau to a lower. The Schwabs, Gates and Trudeaus are clearly unevolved beings who understand nothing higher than their own interests.

Any of those who comment here and understand principles higher than how much money or power they have would never reincarnate as those who have yet to move beyond the infant stage of development.

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 20, 2022 5:24 AM
Reply to  Howard

My understanding, which is not comprehensive by the way, is not so much that you could go from a higher plane to a lower, but that you could get left behind and find yourself in a situation where you have a heck of a lot of catching up to do.
This could, according to what I have studied, take thousands of years, although I believe time is rather different in-between lives.

I could imagine that the Swabs, Gates and Trudeaux might well be in that category, which, frustratingly, would make it rather hard to gloat, since the possibility of their catching up at some stage might exist… dammit…

Howard
Howard
Jun 20, 2022 3:16 PM
Reply to  wardropper

They could probably eventually “catch up”; but first they would have to endure some pretty awful happenings to purge them of the awful things they brought upon others.

It may be true, as Mr Brzezinski noted, that it’s “easier to kill a million people than to control them”; but – if there actually were reincarnation – those who manage such a feat would be here (or somewhere) for zillions of years to make amends.

Although, as The Buddha allegedly said, “If I meet a man on the road and he cuts off my head, that man is a teacher,” kind of implies there’s nothing wrong with hurting others. And THAT is where I drop the whole crummy nonsense of reincarnation.

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 21, 2022 4:43 AM
Reply to  Howard

I suppose no one has personally killed a million people, but I’m not clear how far indirect responsibility for death goes in this context.
Who could escape that, given the fact that, for example, we constantly purchase cheap products and enjoy privileges due to the suffering and death of slaves labouring in other countries?

I don’t get what Buddha meant at all in that story you mentioned. I need some help interpreting it.
Still, I wouldn’t necessarily regard it as excusing ‘hurting others’.

One possibility that strikes me is that since Buddha was referring to himself, he was perhaps teaching once again that one should avoid undue attachment to one’s own physical existence, and that one would end up the wiser for it?
I suppose the experience of losing one’s head in the physical world would be quite a lesson for the soul in the spiritual world after death, and presumably recognizable as such by an advanced soul like his…

It’s just a thought – and long may it remain just a thought…

Jacques
Jacques
Jun 20, 2022 11:49 AM
Reply to  Howard

I don’t know about this, man. To be completely honest, it sounds as much as a crock of shit as the promise of going to Heaven after death if you’re a good obedient boy and do as the nobility says, as reinforced by the priest during regular Sunday indoctrination.

Like, the ones that shaft you your whole life are less evolved, while you, the guy who eats dirt, are more.

So what happens to them? They get to live one life of luxury after another, while you get withdrawn from circulation after a few tours?

Howard
Howard
Jun 20, 2022 1:31 PM
Reply to  Jacques

I think the idea behind reincarnation is that this earthly existence is not a desired state but only a kind of training ground to enable you to move beyond the physical.

The whole idea is every bit as skewed as traditional religious dogma and full of every bit as many holes.

That’s kind of why I prefer to be an atheist: it makes a lot more sense.

Jacques
Jacques
Jun 20, 2022 2:51 PM
Reply to  Howard

High five …

Johnny
Johnny
Jun 19, 2022 12:38 PM

A dead body is not death, because death is a utterly subjective experience.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N7yr7pqQvVQ
Awareness, consciousness, spirit, Life, whatever you choose to call it, precedes birth and continues following the death of every-body.
Life has no beginning, and no end.
It just IS.

Edwige
Edwige
Jun 19, 2022 9:27 AM

The traditional answer to death was “children”. Much of the current agonising about death is connected to childlessness (or childfreedom in the controlled media).

Oh no, someone asked the public about children and that unregulated social media is spreading the reaults, that having a large family might actually be a good idea. Send for a controlled hack to disabuse that notion, push it on twitter and give it away when you have something of a captive audience:

https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/18/apparently-4-is-the-perfect-number-of-kids-to-have-in-what-world-16831735/

The Metro seriously rivals the Fraud or Independent as current worst MSM outlet – although the i-paper remains in a class of its own.

Johnnycomelately
Johnnycomelately
Jun 20, 2022 9:19 AM
Reply to  Edwige

Isnt The Metro the free mag they give out for free outside all Major U.K cities.

les online
les online
Jun 19, 2022 5:44 AM

Some have claimed the vaxx makers main target was always the kids. That they are using every ruse and means available to get at the kids to jab them bears out the claim…
In New Zealand the fight is still ongoing to protect the kids…

https://hatchardreport.com/could-this-be-new-zealands-most-imprtant-covid-court-case-to-date/

Dr Hatchard is one of the few warning about the dangers of the genetic manipulation technology that has bee n given a shot in the arm. a boost, by the ‘covid’ fear campaign…

https://hatchardreport.com/category/genetics/

George Mc
George Mc
Jun 19, 2022 8:06 AM
Reply to  les online

We are seeing an ambitious remolding of humanity which means they are going for the long haul. So yes they are targeting kids with he aim of reducing numbers and restructuring attitudes.

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 9:30 AM
Reply to  George Mc

and truing to cut the spiritual connection!
now we have ”the new age thing is a psyop”
the real psyop is making some of us believe that.

les online
les online
Jun 19, 2022 11:41 AM
Reply to  George Mc

When Orson Welles broadcast “War of the World” by radio some people listening to the program grabbed pitchforks and shotguns, went looking for the invading Martians. Others hid under beds, or in cellars…
Covid’s Invasion was broadcast visually…The broadcast was global and nearly everyone cringed in fear of an imagined threat…
In an age of saturating, totalitarian ‘communication’ media once you let Them inside your head you no longer seem able to tell “what is real and what is not.”…

NickM
NickM
Jun 19, 2022 5:43 AM

Attributed to philosophical mathematician Whitehead but the earliest text is by down-to-slime biologist JBS Haldane:

“The world is not only weirder than we imagined, it is weirder than we can imagine.”

Whitehead’s idea that the incomprehensibilty of quantum theory is a sign of God’s wisdom rather than Man’s foolishness has gained ground steadily in succeeding decades, but already in the next generation popular science writer Arthur Koestler warned that the God of Whitehead was an old god : “The god of the gaps”; a sort of modern Book of Job.

“Where wast thou [Little Man] when I set the stars in the firmament?”

It is good for the Church to foster reason, a tribute to its Greek parentage. But the foundation of religion is faith; to which the Christian religion added Hope and Charity — and the greatest of these is Charity.

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 19, 2022 4:36 AM

It’s good to see so many people here at least taking the question seriously enough to discuss it.

It doesn’t seem so long ago that I got the impression that almost everybody in whatever comments section of whatever news outlet wanted to stand up and state proudly, “I’m an atheist, and I believe in nothing”.
Ayn Rand has done a great deal of harm. Some people should just zip it until they’ve learnt something more positive than how to seek revenge upon a world they hate.

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 9:22 AM
Reply to  wardropper

then they would not seek revenge!

Howard
Howard
Jun 20, 2022 3:39 AM
Reply to  wardropper

It is rather contradictory to say “I’m an atheist, and I believe in nothing.” Being an atheist compels belief in reality, since there is no supra-reality to believe in. Theists would be more likely to say “this world is an illusion” than would atheists.

So, really, to believe in something that cannot be experienced is the equivalent of saying “I believe in nothing.”

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 20, 2022 5:10 AM
Reply to  Howard

I quite agree with your first paragraph, but that’s still what many people say they are, and what they say they believe, although perhaps without a great deal of thought having gone into it.

As far as the second paragraph is concerned, I think many genuinely religious people would say that it can be experienced, and has been.

Near-death experiences are a well-known phenomenon, and there are also people who are more clairvoyant than others, just as there are people who are more musical, better at mathematics, or more intelligent than others.
It can’t be helped that their experiences are not recognized or acknowledged by everybody else.

As always, proving such things is always the problem, but to those who experience them, there is no necessity to prove them, just as my ability to see the colour blue and distinguish it from green doesn’t obligate me to prove its existence to those who are colour blind and simply can’t see it.
I see it, so I can work with it. They can’t.

At any rate, it seems to me that our human species manifests as a very wide spectrum, and what is clearly full of content to one person can be a yawning, empty abyss to another.
For example, I know that there are people who are far better at mathematics than I am, but it doesn’t bug me, because I can be creative in other ways which would leave them behind. It just isn’t a thing to get worked up about.

We are what we are, and we have the gifts that we have. I don’t see any problem in that. Other people can be enough of a pain without us having to deal with a situation where we are all identical – all the same pain… 🙂

Howard
Howard
Jun 20, 2022 5:05 PM
Reply to  wardropper

Just like we’ve probably all had experiences of “deja vu,” so too have we all had experiences of clairvoyance. A few years back, e.g., I went to a Casino in Delaware – where my cousin used to regularly go to play the Roulette Wheel.

I wanted to play Roulette one time in his honor – he had recently passed away. I knew the number “24” would come up – but I couldn’t get to the board to play it (it was surrounded by old fat men with walkers).

Sure enough, “24” did indeed come up. My point being that there are times when we absolutely “know” something – and it always happens. But then we tend to get cocky and end up “guessing” at this or that in order to repeat the experience. And that NEVER works.

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 21, 2022 4:20 AM
Reply to  Howard

Yep. I must admit I don’t have the kind of luck where material gain is involved. Perhaps I got too cocky in a previous life… it wouldn’t surprise me…

jubal hershaw
jubal hershaw
Jun 19, 2022 3:31 AM

When there’s a heat-wave in Australia, city dwellers head for the beaches – unless they’re under lockdown because of another Variant wave.
In France, another Variant wave doesnt have to be scaring the population for lockdowns to be employed (though initially, only for large gatherings, the beach excepted).
For some the future is happening now.
https://www.activistpost.com/2022/06/heatwave-lockdowns-region-in-france-bans-outdoor-gatherings.htmlom
.

J A
J A
Jun 19, 2022 11:13 AM
Reply to  jubal hershaw

it’s winter tho

Jeffrey Strahl
Jeffrey Strahl
Jun 19, 2022 1:25 AM

Griffin is a great author, i know him personally, totally respect him. And, i’m not sure i agree with him here, i just don’t know. My late close friend Tod Fletcher, who edited a bunch of Griffin’s books, came to agree with him on this.

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 9:34 AM
Reply to  Jeffrey Strahl

too long for me to read properly, i hate reading on screens, but it’s all elementary to me. always has been.
though i have ”rational” parts that struggle but lately i see more clearly.
of course i believe in reincarnation, and have just been very gratified when dolores cannon confirmed my memory of what life is like in between incarnations.
we are all in the light. that’s it!

rob2
rob2
Jun 19, 2022 1:16 AM

I’m with you, Mr. Curtin. Our redemption and hope in the physical, bodily resurrection through Christ Jesus is only everything:

“[H]ow do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.” 1Corin.15:13

Patrick L.
Patrick L.
Jun 19, 2022 12:50 AM

One life and then eternal salvation or damnation on the basis of that single try-out makes sense neither rationally nor morally, especially considering the wildly differing circumstances people are born into.

Reincarnation makes little or no difference when no one can remember his or her previous life. (The few recorded exceptions are rarely more than dubious and never more than inconclusive.)

Every new life is a new start, which is why it’s a sacred duty to care for children, and that includes both protecting them when they need protecting and letting them become themselves as they grow into independence.

“I call this world ‘The Vale of Soul-Making,’ “

– John Keats, dead at 25.

The eternal life Jesus spoke of is only intelligible (only feelable) as a state of mindbody/bodymind, i.e., it happens in this world now, now, now, or else it doesn’t. We’re in it when we’re in love, for instance, or when we’re speaking selflessly, or when we’re courageous (acting from the heart) in defence of reality.

It’s a buzz, literally. I don’t know how it could happen without a body, What else would we feel with? What would we know with if we couldn’t feel?

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 19, 2022 4:18 AM
Reply to  Patrick L.

I’ll just put in my tuppence-worth on reincarnation here, based on many years of reading about the matter:

My understanding of karma is that if we could remember everything about our last life, we would not be emotionally free enough to make the adjustments which are called for – quite apart from the unbelievable stress which would be entailed. The essential thing is that the adjustments must be freely made, and that involves a long period after death where one experiences the wrongs one has done to other people as if they were happening to oneself. From that comes a great yearning to come back and make good in the next life.

The idea of forgetting one’s previous life is that it is only when one has become spiritually advanced enough that can one remember many previous lives and put into perspective the important lessons that one has learned, the mistakes one has made, the suffering one has caused others and the atonement one has eventually made.

If forgetting a previous life seems an illogical concept, then one might consider the fact that every single night we lose consciousness and forget our everyday surroundings. Even when dreaming, we just don’t know where we are.
With that in mind, death doesn’t really seem to be such a different concept.
Some cultures even call sleep ‘the little death’…

We’re talking cosmic time and cosmic evolution here – not just a few years.
Grasping this enormous scale is not for the impatient…

That’s how it seems to me at any rate, and I must admit it makes sense.
I don’t mean to preach or evangelize, but I think anybody who feels at home contemplating life in a philosophic way should go for it.
Departing this life without knowing much more than one did as a child seems a terrible waste of thinking power…

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 9:40 AM
Reply to  wardropper

i mostly agree. i’ve an actual memory of pre incarnation which was recently confirmed by an old interview with dolores cannon.
i’ve finally come closer to why/what i am here for this time, having had a vision in the mid 80s as to having some purpose to fulfil round about the age that i am now, all but despairing of it/doubting it.
having struggled with depression/anxiety my whole life i used o tell myself i wait till i’m 60 to die.
well, at 62 i know, finally.
and the ”rational” unbeliever part of me has conceded that i always did.
this has improved my breathing no end.

J A
J A
Jun 19, 2022 11:14 AM
Reply to  sabelmouse

huh, go on… (I don’t know if the notification bell works I’ll try and listen anyway, check it mods!)

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 21, 2022 4:17 AM
Reply to  sabelmouse

All good wishes for your further journey.

Ian (2)
Ian (2)
Jun 19, 2022 12:21 AM

Having had 2 obe’s and a nde, the one thing I’m certain of is that ‘I am not this body’. As a consequence I believe there are ‘No Accidents in the Universe’. Literally. Take that on board..

I’m also pretty sure that most of us are in for a massive surprise/shock/awakening at, or soon after, the point of death. The transition to another level of consciousness is far more wonderous, complex & awe-inspiring than we can possibly imagine. Oh! and just, too. So nope, we don’t get away with anything. Buckle up.

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 9:42 AM
Reply to  Ian (2)

i am transitioning now.
shifting irl and in this dimension.
it’s quite wonderful and might have been worth 6 decades of pain.

Tony_0pmoc
Tony_0pmoc
Jun 18, 2022 11:43 PM

There maybe life after death, but I am not betting on it.

I actually like living here.

I do however, not believe in straight lines.

Get Born (if you are lucky) live your life and drop dead

Start.. Live.. End (Die)….Nearly everyone believes that, which is mainly because of The Religions (relatively modern from around 2000 years ago – they are all pretty much the same)

So I had got to 15, and gave up my Religion (programmed from birth) and I am not knocking it. Everyone needs something to believe in and Religions of all types all over the world – bring communites together. In my case it might have been the Roman Catholics doing our Marches, but The Protestants did theirs too. In Oldham, we were almost exactly the same. If you a lucky enough to get a date, you are not going ask what religion you believe in , especially if she asks you back to meet her mum and dad..

What’s this the cat’s dragged in from the gig?

When I was 16,I studied Maths, Further Maths, Physics and General Science with my friend Paul Bradshaw. We chatted quietly in library ( whilst both totally in love with Bronwen Hirst) She was the most beautiful girl (yet shy) of anyone we had ever seen.

Neither of us had the courage to ask her for a date. When you look like us geeks you simply do not ask the question. (might get there eventually, but it takes a bit of experience particularly when your mum dresses you, programmining you to be celibate catholic priest, pretending not to to notice all the girls mags under your bed.

When you bring her home, it makes all the difference,

That’s what Families are about

We have this theory which we co-developed studying Physics when we were 16 that time is not linear, but cyclic global and universal.

Start Do, Finish doesn’t make any sense, for the simple reason, that where did the Start Come From.

What was there, before anything happened?

Tony

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 9:43 AM
Reply to  Tony_0pmoc

in between incarnations we are in light, just are light.
then we come back for another lesson.

pawel
pawel
Jun 18, 2022 11:04 PM

>>The dominant view among science-based modern intellectuals is that the idea of >>life after death is not one to take seriously

I tend to agree with the great Kurt Goedel.
He was one of the scientists who were from the other side.
Who else was there ? JC Maxwell etc..
Why do we ditch them so easily nowadays?

Vagabard
Vagabard
Jun 18, 2022 9:57 PM

The Turin Shroud is worth checking out, if you’re looking for an actual physical proof of life after death (an example video link below). The starter question being “How did the image get on the cloth?”. Any explanation (other than the supernatural one) would need to be both scientifically credible and fully tally with the nature of the image/other features of the cloth.

On the more general level though, to transcend human life it’s a great help to have pre-existed it. If you pre-exist human life, then nothing would be more natural than to subsequently transcend it. The problem being, of course, that our lives would appear to start at conception and get extinguished with physical death. Which maybe is indeed our lot unless we’re somehow united to Resurrection per se.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us” (John 1 v.14). So Jesus is believed to have pre-existed His human existence.

And when Jesus says “I am the Resurrection and the life” maybe those weren’t just idle, figurative words. Maybe he quite literally *IS* Resurrection.

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 19, 2022 12:17 AM
Reply to  Vagabard

With all due respect (I read a pretty analytical book on the Shroud 60 years ago), the general concensus seems to be that it was, incredibly, an elaborate hoax, perpetrated by people who really knew what they were doing – along the same lines as the hundreds of miles of ‘Jesus’s foreskin’ claimed to be in caskets all over the Catholic world – but in this case involving some poor blighter who was scourged, had a crown of thorns forced onto his head and was actually crucified in order to produce the desired result.

In any case, we shouldn’t forget Christ’s words, “My Kingdom is not of this world”, which hardly sits well with leaving a shroud behind (dated from, I think, the 13th Century) in order to pacify “ye of little faith”, who were so fond of demanding, “Go on then, give us a sign!”…

It is certainly of great historical interest as a shroud, but it doesn’t in the least constitute proof of a divine spirit in our midst 2,000 years ago.

If you’re really interested, Vag, Rudolf Steiner sheds astonishing light on religious history, ancient initiation, occultism and cosmic evolution, including a great deal concerning reincarnation and the Christ.
I’ve been fascinated by his work for many decades, but one needs to take gentle little steps in order to avoid being gobsmacked by the vast scale of the subject matter.
Jumping in the deep end will shock many people into dismissing the whole thing with a laugh, because it involves a lot of self-knowledge and hard work, as well as an open mind.

I think we desperately need such a perspective right now, even though Steiner died in 1925. Fashions have changed, but what he talks about in his 5,000 lectures (a great many of them online and translated into English) has not.

Vagabard
Vagabard
Jun 19, 2022 7:43 AM
Reply to  wardropper

I appreciate it’s not a new topic for many. The first book I read on it was Ian Wilson’s 1978 book ‘The Turin Shroud’. Though there have been many more discoveries since, revealed in more recent books and documentaries

I also take your point about the appropriate response to “proof, proof, give me more proof” types. Though there was also that verse about “no sign will be given them except the sign of Jonah”.

Anyway, as regards the cloth/image:

You could theoretically take a condemned criminal, subject them to precisely the same treatments as depicted in the gospels – scourging, crown of thorns, spear in the side, nails through hands and feet etc. And then bury them in a cloth matching all Jewish requirements (material, length) etc. That could theoretically be done to explain many of the cloth’s features.

It wouldn’t explain the image itself though (on the surface only, holographic, photographic negative etc), nor other less obvious features, such first century pollen embedded in the cloth.

It’s not an essential part of faith. Interesting historically – but far more so, if it is indeed genuine.

Ian two
Ian two
Jun 19, 2022 8:40 AM
Reply to  wardropper

Agree, Steiner can be dark and I’m still working through his ‘Satan’ and ‘Ahriman’ concepts.

Someone else in these replies (El Gaz???) referenced these thought terrorists harvesting our energy and Steiner seems to go along with that, to some extent. These little fuckers are not good guys. From whence do they come? From us?

Deep & dark.

For light & shade I go to Eckhart Tolle for his wisdom in being in the NOW. Simple truths.

Vagabard
Vagabard
Jun 19, 2022 9:42 AM
Reply to  wardropper

[Possible duplicate – earlier post in pending]

I appreciate it’s not a new topic for many. The first book I read on it was Ian Wilson’s 1978 book ‘The Turin Shroud’. Though there have been many more discoveries since, revealed in more recent books and documentaries

I also take your point about the appropriate response to “proof, proof, give me more proof” types. Though there was also that verse about “no sign will be given them except the sign of Jonah”.

Anyway, as regards the cloth/image:

You could theoretically take a condemned criminal, subject them to precisely the same treatments as depicted in the gospels – scourging, crown of thorns, spear in the side, nails through hands and feet etc. And then bury them in a cloth matching all ‘due-ish’ requirements (material, length) etc. That could theoretically be done to explain many of the cloth’s features.

It wouldn’t explain the image itself though (on the surface only, holographic, photographic negative etc), nor other less obvious features, such first century pollen embedded in the cloth.

It’s not an essential part of faith. Interesting historically – but far more so, if it is indeed genuine.

Joerg
Joerg
Jun 18, 2022 9:50 PM

A bit off topic, but the video ends with: “Remember: We have God o our side”.
So I dare to post it here
Nightmare on your Street (Dr Vernon Coleman)
https://brandnewtube.com/watch/nightmare-on-your-street_rsyVszSQSdgGdLx.html

Ian
Ian
Jun 18, 2022 8:57 PM

There is a perspective on this that I would like to share. Take it or leave it. The sources are multiple if you would care to research them. Earth is a Prison Planet for souls. Once you have been sentenced to come here, this is where you will stay, life after life. Many souls have been sent here because they have committed unspeakable crimes, and continue to do so here. Others are revolutionaries or artists who challenged the ruling regimes in other places and are “undesirable”.

I found the Tibetan monks’ obsession with death difficult to understand until I realized that what they were doing is arranging a “soul escape”, or a prison break. At the time of death one has a chance to escape the prison, if that is what one wants to do and is sufficiently prepared. One needs to know how to escape and where to go, and how to get there. There are many levels to this, like the Van Allen Belts preventing souls from escaping. If this strikes a chord with you, look into it. If not ignore it, or make fun of it!

One Real Voice
One Real Voice
Jun 19, 2022 12:03 AM
Reply to  Ian

This seems to be something Sting’s art points to or suggests, as maybe some reason why. The Soul Cages.Incidentally, with someone like Sting, before someone just pissing on him, thinking he’s just another filthy rich satanic one – my suggestion is to look to the art and the song, rather than the success story and the deal with the devil (the big business). And consider where he came from. From the common ground. Not born rich. He’s no Elon Musk.

Alas, if the deal with the devil with a Sting (or even moreso, a Bono) someone finds off-putting, but one wants to look to the musical art for something – there’s a guy named Ian Brown. Soul singer of name and Stone Roses success, who has said tweeted and written the things that aren’t supposed to be said when a successful career artist is playing the big art game safely.

Patrick L.
Patrick L.
Jun 19, 2022 2:37 AM
Reply to  One Real Voice

Channeling the spirit (no joke) .Saying it all with just some extraordinary insrumental playing and a few nonsense words:

J A
J A
Jun 19, 2022 11:21 AM
Reply to  Patrick L.

hm…

One thing is certain: This song is kickass.

J A
J A
Jun 19, 2022 11:35 AM
Reply to  One Real Voice
wardropper
wardropper
Jun 19, 2022 1:42 AM
Reply to  Ian

I think you misunderstand the Tibetan monks…

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 9:47 AM
Reply to  wardropper

could be.

mgeo
mgeo
Jun 19, 2022 8:34 AM
Reply to  Ian

What the radiation belts – and other sources of radiation – do is to contain the demented ultra-rich and their minions on the planet. This prevents them from polluting the rest of the universe with their bodies.

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 9:46 AM
Reply to  Ian

i prefer the more optimistic ”earth is the most difficult incarnation/s, for the advanced soul” idea 😉

J A
J A
Jun 19, 2022 11:20 AM
Reply to  Ian

Somehow this thought occured to me independently once, and it made heaps of sense but I forgot how I thought it up. (wasn’t on anything, somehow) Remember thinking that they’re trying to eliminate our free will and that not giving a fuck is somehow how to get there? Like just letting your soul (?) take over…

J A
J A
Jun 19, 2022 11:56 AM
Reply to  Ian

The best evidence I’ve seen we’re in a simulation. Two pieces of evidence actually:

ONE: A slow plane I saw vanish when I looked away for half a second, on a perfectly clear day with no buildings or trees around. I knew I wasn’t hallucinating because my friends noticed the same.

TWO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adTePA-jCY4 In this video, the guy at the start CLEARLY appears to jump upwards with enough speed to clear 2.4-2.5m without bending his legs, or just high enough to jump over most trains using the longjump technique while standing from the tracks (use </> buttons and count the frames). However, he seems to level out at 4 feet for a third of a second. It seems to me that we might have some kind of programmed jump height and can’t exceed four feet?

J A
J A
Jun 19, 2022 11:59 AM
Reply to  J A

On the second one I’m still looking closely and trying to see if I’m wrong or not though. First one is certain though

Martin Usher
Martin Usher
Jun 18, 2022 8:20 PM

Much of what we associate as ‘body’ and ‘soul’ have analogs in the computing world in the distinction between hardware and software. Computer hardware is inert without software programs to run on it and those programs define what the system is and how it behaves. Software can exist outside of the hardware but it doesn’t do anything unless its run on a suitable platform or otherwise interpreted.

This notion is well known and forms the base for the plots of several TV shows and the like. What is less well understood by the general public is the structure of software — we also give computers personalities in the stories from our culture (invariably a bit like ours) and then there’s the recent fuss about the Google advanced language model which by convincingly simulating a human personality has raised the question “At what point does this become truly sentient?”.

We should be careful of misunderstanding science, though. A hundred years or so ago the notion of electomagnetic radiation as a way of conveying information using invisible rays became widespread. It was also only vaguely understood by most people so they started giving magical properties to all sorts of ‘rays’ such as being able to read minds, influence people, move things and even destroy things. A lot of this still permeates our popular culture and while the references are invariably tongue in cheek there’s ample evidence that people still believe this.

John Goss
John Goss
Jun 18, 2022 6:28 PM

Although he is a Christian, the present book does not presuppose any Christian beliefs such as revelation, nor, for that matter, specific beliefs of any religion, although he does presuppose (and partially explains in chapter eleven) the existence of a “divine creator” or “divine reality” who is responsible for the evolutionary process that is the expression of a cosmic purpose with the “fine-tuning” of the universe.”

It works better for me than the Big Bang theory which presupposes there was nothing before the Big Bang and no means of creating the phenomenon.

When the corona nonsense came into the church at which I worshipped I realised it was time to leave. Since leaving I have felt closer to God. Revelation has been an eye-opener for me. It is a book I did not care to try and understand. I thought whoever wrote it must have been as high as a kite.

Now I read and re-read it, looking for clues I have missed. Perhaps John was high. There is that bit where he went to the angel and asked him for the little scroll.

“Take it, and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but it will taste as sweet as honey.”

There is an apocryphal story of Isaac Newton having a visit from an atheist friend. On the table was a model of the solar system. The friend was dumbfounded when Newton said the model just suddenly appeared from nowhere, and that was the rationale of atheist beliefs.

-CO
-CO
Jun 18, 2022 8:02 PM
Reply to  John Goss

Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect by Ian Stevenson. Praeger Publishers, 1997; xviii + 203 pages, ISBN 0-275-95189-8, paperback.
The late Dr Ian Stevenson was a Professor of psychiatry at the University of Virginia who studied cases of reincarnation involving children for over 30 years, mainly from Hindu and Buddhist countries in SE Asia, also Lebanon, Turkey, and certain tribes in NW America. He collected evidence relating to over 2,600 cases of past life memories which were not gained by using hypnosis (since the method is problematic), and the memories matched with the data of their former identity, family, residence and manner of death. Their birthmarks and other physiological manifestations such as deformities, were found to relate to experiences of the remembered past life and particularly, of violent death.

John Goss
John Goss
Jun 18, 2022 10:15 PM
Reply to  -CO

There is certainly a lot we do not understand.

Shipintheknight
Shipintheknight
Jun 18, 2022 6:27 PM

Personally, logic and experience made me start to acknowledge another dimension around 25 years ago when I’d been around for a while and witnessed too many unexplicable occurrences to ignore.
First conclusion was religion can be disregarded. This is of a dimension way way beyond human consciousness so the scribblings of men (always men), despite their sincerity and often soulful sentiment, don’t hit the mark.
Second, and constantly maturing conclusion is listen to your inside, instinct or intuition as much as possible.
We’re not meant to get it, the answer, the truth of what is, life after death or whatever. It is beyond us, always has and always will be. But that doesn’t mean we can’t tap into It.

Johnnycomelately
Johnnycomelately
Jun 18, 2022 6:24 PM

comment image

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 10:06 AM

that is funny!

el Gallinazo
el Gallinazo
Jun 18, 2022 5:23 PM

Trained in the “hard sciences,” chemistry specifically, I recognize that proofs only exist in mathematics. In our world of physical “reality,” one can only accumulate verifiable evidence which, as the above quote from Williams James, may be “good enough to hang a man twenty times over.” In this regard I would like to bring to the commentariat the work of two medical doctors whose careers were and are at the University of Virginia Medical School. They are Ian Stevenson and Jim Tucker. Stevenson is now deceased, having worked productively well into his 80’s, and Tucker is essentially his protege, picking up where Stevenson left off. They both focused on children who remember past lives. In their research they never claimed that these children had past lives, simply the undeniable fact that they remembered them. And in most of their cases, they would analyze other possibilities for these memories ranging from parental fraud, overhearing household conversations, to the very woo-woo psychic fields excluding reincarnation.

Tucker recently published a volume, which actually contains two books, about his research. While much of Stevenson’s research involved children in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, Tucker’s second book was restricted to the USA. Here is where you can find it.

https://www.amazon.com/Before-Childrens-Memories-Previous-Lives-ebook/dp/B0893T8M4L/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2R56IK59MZNZV&keywords=jim+tucker+books&qid=1655566822&s=books&sprefix=jim+tucker%2Cstripbooks%2C496&sr=1-1

The most stunning study is in the second of the 2 in 1 books, Chapter 4, The Third James. It is about a boy from Louisiana who remember his life and death as a WWII carrier fighter pilot who died in the battle of Iwo Jima when his motor was hit by Japanese flak, his plane crashed into the sea, and unable to escape from the cockpit, he burned to death. I repeat that the details of this meticulous investigation are stunning. And one cannot have reincarnation without life (consciousness and memories) after leaving the physical body. The question of why only a minority of children remember these lives, and even with them, the memories usually fade by the age of six, is a whole ’nuther field of conjecture.

On a personal note, I would add that while the continuity of existence past physical death is certainly a positive, I do not regard it as an unmitigated one. I have come to the tentative conclusions of the early Christian Gnostics, as set down in Coptic scrolls in the 3rd century CE, and discovered in Nag Hammadi Egypt. Included in these scrolls are many dialogues with Jesus which you will never find in the King James version . To summarize it in my own words, we are being farmed for our non-physical energy, primarily intense emotions of fear, hatred, and pain, by evil, multi-dimensional beings, and reincarnation is just a way of recycling us. The challenge is to escape from their matrix and recycling center of our prison planet. Karmic debt is as much a trick to control us in the out-of-body state as monetary debt of Babylonian Money Magic and the world’s central banks .

Why are leaves green? Most people cannot answer this. The answer is that plants live by photonic energy absorbed from sunlight. The leaves have two closely related forms of chlorophyl, A and B. One absorbs in the blue spectrum and the other in the red. Green cannot be utilized and is reflected, i.e. thrown away. If you cannot see any connection to my comment above, think about it some more.

Martha
Martha
Jun 18, 2022 9:29 PM
Reply to  el Gallinazo

I agree with the Gnostics too. When you die and see a tunnel of light, look for another off ramp. Reincarnation is based on the idea that we’re not good enough & have to come back & try again to get it right, whatever that is. I believe that the way to get off the wheel is to claim “I’m fine just the way I am, no more or less perfect than anyone else.”

J A
J A
Jun 19, 2022 12:09 PM
Reply to  Martha

The more I hear about the Gnostics the more based they sound 🙂

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 10:14 AM
Reply to  el Gallinazo

and what is this energy farmed for?

Jacques
Jacques
Jun 19, 2022 10:57 AM
Reply to  el Gallinazo

This is why I don’t do drugs.

I did smoke a joint a few times, but the last time I did was ages ago, on a weird occasion when I somehow found myself in some apartment in Vancouver at a session of people who had fried their brains with who knows what shit. Anyway, I had a few drags and it put me in a kinda immobile state. Because of that I was forced to witness an hours-long lecture in the vein of the above-written shit. I wanted to get the fuck out of here, but couldn’t – I was like screwed to the fucking floor.

Never again.

J A
J A
Jun 19, 2022 12:10 PM
Reply to  Jacques

haaaaaaaaaahaahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahaahahhahahahahaha
(no harm laughing at it, it’s in the past!)

YourPointBeing
YourPointBeing
Jun 18, 2022 5:01 PM

OT:
Ozzy nailing the War thing:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LQUXuQ6Zd9w

Treating people just like pawns in chess,
Wait til their judgement day comes!

YourPointBeing
YourPointBeing
Jun 18, 2022 5:02 PM
Reply to  YourPointBeing

Day of Judgment, God is calling,
On their knees the war pigs crawling!

One Real Voice
One Real Voice
Jun 19, 2022 12:06 AM
Reply to  YourPointBeing

Love Ozzy and the Sabs! But (pre Ronnie James Dio) one should give credit to Geezer Butler for writing all the genius lyrics that Ozzy brought to life so uniquely.

John Goss
John Goss
Jun 18, 2022 4:50 PM

One flesh and blood man that concerns me is Julian Assange, a victim of institutionalised torture. The latest torture has been inflicted by ruthless Priti Patel, who believes in capital punishment, and has rubber-stamped Assange’s extradition to the US.

https://johnplatinumgoss.com/2022/06/18/priti-patels-five-eyes/

dan
dan
Jun 18, 2022 6:51 PM
Reply to  John Goss

I believe in capital punishment.. and?

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
Jun 18, 2022 8:21 PM
Reply to  John Goss

And the pathetic new PM, just like the old PM’s for 12 years claim we cannot interfere because Australia has no problem with foreign countries torturing and killing our citizens.

John Goss
John Goss
Jun 18, 2022 9:30 PM

I know. It’s unbelievable. Or should be.

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
Jun 19, 2022 10:09 AM
Reply to  John Goss

Don’t forget it was Hawke who sat on his fucking hands 38 years ago when Malaysia hung Chambers and Marlow, the AFP who literally killed the two Bali 9 lads, but even Howard got Hicks home in half the time they have had to get Assange released. And I noticed Penny out with the megaphone for some bloke in Myanmar.

Sebastian
Sebastian
Jun 18, 2022 4:31 PM

Love Edward Curtin’s pieces/reviews.

Thanks.

Sullivan
Sullivan
Jun 18, 2022 4:09 PM

I expect that a lot of ‘science based’ individuals have a kind of bias, even though they might consider themselves still open minded, they are not ready to destroy their own mental understanding based on their years in education and in their job, in order to accept the existence of paranormal phenomena

Martin Usher
Martin Usher
Jun 19, 2022 2:30 AM
Reply to  Sullivan

On the contrary, ‘science based’ individuals know just how much they don’t know about things. Its easy when you first start learning things to think that this knowledge is absolute, total and invariably true. As you learn more you realize just how little you actually know — the questions pile up faster than you can answer them. However, in order to actually get anything done we have to use shortcuts, simplifications for everyday use/ The mistake a lot of people make is to assume that the everyday approximation is the absolute truth that people cling to like a belief.

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 10:16 AM
Reply to  Sullivan

looked at closely ”belief” in science/ belief in the absence of god, or similar, IS religious.

Annie
Annie
Jun 18, 2022 3:59 PM

I used to question death how why what happens, The older I’ve gotten the more I believe in the human spirit,consciousness ,energy one with everything one with the creator.There is more to all this than so called scientists and cabal trying to make us think we are just bodies that die.

Jacques
Jacques
Jun 18, 2022 5:05 PM
Reply to  Annie

You spirit will live on in what you’ve instilled in your children. Just like you carry what your ancestors have left you with. You, personally, you’ll croak and that will be it. Like the rest of us.

Some of you will also live on in people you have influenced, hopefully positively, and perhaps in some works you’ve created. Some of us leave more of a mark, some less.

That’s the way I see it.

This guy will be alive forever.

So, the joke goes like this:

Mozart comes to Heaven. God welcomes him and says: “Wolfie, we have a regular Sunday thing here, a music performance, I want you to be the conductor of my Celestial Orchestra.” Mozart retorts, “Oh, it’s a great honor, Sir, but isn’t the greatest of the great, the one and only Johann Sebastian Bach a resident here, and wouldn’t he be a better man for the job?” “I’m Bach, you fucking idiot,” God says.

YourPointBeing
YourPointBeing
Jun 18, 2022 5:21 PM
Reply to  Jacques

Terrible.

I know nightingales who perform better then either of them, and they do it naturally.

Man had to invent an entire system of musical theory to get the sounds he did.
Not so, the nightingale

The hubris of man.

Jacques
Jacques
Jun 18, 2022 6:00 PM
Reply to  YourPointBeing

Then grow some fucking wings and fly off and sing away. Your prerogative.

There is enough room under the Sun for everybody, even killjoy motherfuckers like you.

Anyways, it’s been a scorching hot day here, I’d like to leave you with a couple of songs

96 degrees
Hot hot hot
Just for the record, I’m a human being and not a fucking bird and I’m okay with if not proud of what my species has accomplished.

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 10:18 AM
Reply to  YourPointBeing

are you dissing bach?!

Jacques
Jacques
Jun 19, 2022 10:43 AM
Reply to  sabelmouse

Bach – Well-Tempered Clavier, Book 1: Fugue No. 1 in C major
Joue par un certain Canadien Glen Gould ….

Jacques
Jacques
Jun 19, 2022 10:51 AM
Reply to  Jacques

Fantasy & Fugue in G Minor
Bernard Lagace

Studied music history with this man. He played us a piece at the beginning of every lesson. Being the best sightreader and least afraid of fucking up, I was in charge of turning pages for him. I’m a jazz player used to tapping my foot … you should see Bernard’s face … ha ha … What? I ask … The foot! he says. … These damn classical guys have no concept of groove!

The kindest man on the planet!

Jacques
Jacques
Jun 19, 2022 10:45 AM
Reply to  sabelmouse

J.S. Bach English Suite No.6 BWV 811
Yaron Ross … Had a chance to study counterpoint with this man …

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 10:17 AM
Reply to  Jacques

:)))

J A
J A
Jun 19, 2022 12:21 PM
Reply to  Jacques

hee hee

S Cooper
S Cooper
Jun 18, 2022 3:57 PM

“If they honestly believed there was life after death they would have gotten rid of the laws concerning killing somebody. As to the philosophical nature of existence (for want of a better word) you have me stumped.”

Antonym
Antonym
Jun 18, 2022 3:27 PM

The religions born between Jerusalem / Petra say this life is the only one on Earth, while those born ~between Benares / Lahore believe that an individual essence gets reborn many times on this planet. That essence is certainly not the brains memory content., but located behind the heart – in another dimension, so not the ego either, or the life force.
Not objectively measurable by physical instruments, so doesn’t exit for science today.

Howard
Howard
Jun 18, 2022 3:12 PM

I want to read the book. However, a quick “Look Inside” on Amazon (sorry, Alt-Right, but I do peruse Amazon occasionally) incensed me.

In his Introduction, Mr Griffin roundly contradicts himself with Old Time Religion clap-trap. Yes, I know he’s a theologian – but also a philosopher.

He says, in the introduction, Chapter 10 posits that only man survives after death – yet his entire thesis is posited on the concept that consciousness resides in all living things, down to the cell level.

WTF! If consciousness is in everything, why then does only man’s “soul” continue?

Materialist that I am, I’m willing to consider “life after death.” But I refuse absolutely to limit that dynamic to the “crown of creation” – God’s little darling chosen lifeform.

Give me a philosopher who lives up to the name. Be consistent or be quiet.

Annie
Annie
Jun 18, 2022 4:44 PM
Reply to  Howard

Spot on if we are all connected nothing ceases after death.I’ve had pets die that I’ve seen them corner of my eye plain as day.

dan
dan
Jun 18, 2022 6:57 PM
Reply to  Annie



A TedTalk, one of the best ones i’ve watched. About everything being connected.

Observe
Observe
Jun 18, 2022 5:02 PM
Reply to  Howard

Alt right?!

Howard
Howard
Jun 18, 2022 5:48 PM
Reply to  Observe

I consider the majority of commenters to OffG to be “alt right.” There are a few transients, like me, who only came here because they got tired of seeing every “leftist” blog become a cheering section for Dr Fauci & Co.

Jacques
Jacques
Jun 18, 2022 9:06 PM
Reply to  Howard

Right on!

Ian (2)
Ian (2)
Jun 18, 2022 11:20 PM
Reply to  Howard

WTF! If consciousness is in everything, why then does only man’s “soul” continue?”

Animals do not have individualised souls. On death they return to a ‘group soul’ (for that species?).

Eventually, presumably after ‘progress’, they may individualise into another form of life, not necessarily human.

Receiving a human birth is said to be the greatest gift.

Howard
Howard
Jun 19, 2022 12:28 AM
Reply to  Ian (2)

Receiving a human birth is said to be the greatest gift.

Said…by humans no doubt.

Ian two
Ian two
Jun 19, 2022 8:25 AM
Reply to  Howard

I think it’s in the Upanishads and also the Ramayana of Valmiki. So you’re probably right

Ray
Ray
Jun 20, 2022 3:40 PM
Reply to  Ian two

In Bhagavad Gita, Shrimad Bhagavatam mostly… Yes 🙂

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 19, 2022 10:20 AM
Reply to  Howard

of course it does reside in everything.

Paul Vonharnish
Paul Vonharnish
Jun 18, 2022 2:06 PM

From what I’ve witnessed and experienced in life, death seems like a fine alternative…

Ian two
Ian two
Jun 19, 2022 8:26 AM

Depends how you’ve lived your life Paul. You’ll know on your death-bed

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 18, 2022 2:02 PM

Difficult to discuss this topic in a couple of paragraphs with short comments.
But an open mind, along with eyes that are also open, indicates compellingly that birth and death are mysteries – something we need to contemplate, not shrug off.
This is more than just the endless creation of new machines that need oiling occasionally, yet eventually always wear out.
It’s one of the reasons we have a consciousness and the capacity to think. But it takes focused work, not flippant aphorisms.

In amongst the millions of charlatans, there are a few great spiritual teachers.

Some of us are naturally drawn to those who teach what their own experience proves.
Others are naturally repelled by anything they cannot see and hold in their hand.
But being naturally attracted to, or repelled by, such fundamental human matters has no effect upon what actually is. We have to look deeper than our own personal preferences.

Sullivan
Sullivan
Jun 18, 2022 1:47 PM

for the best evidence look at the best EVP….medium asks question , then voice responds(a voice that can be recognised by the living as such and such) Raymond Cass recorded some pretty clear voices, its on you tube i think. So its definitely clear that some form of consciousness survives death, but thats just where the enigma begins!

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
Jun 18, 2022 12:52 PM

we never die, our bodies do. in between we are just light. i remember this quite clearly.

Freecus
Freecus
Jun 18, 2022 12:42 PM

Is there life after death?

Before being able to answer this question regarding the Future, you would have to fully comprehend the Present.
Where are we?

peter mcloughlin
peter mcloughlin
Jun 18, 2022 12:06 PM

It’s clear that all debate – more so war – is about power, whichever side one is on. The human, the material is about power. To see beyond people must go back: “The nearest the human spiritual journey will get to the divine, in this life only to be glimpsed as human intellect can get no nearer, is composed in a single feeling: love.”
https://patternofhistory.wordpress.com/

Mark41
Mark41
Jun 18, 2022 12:05 PM

The fact is we do not know if there is a God or some divine spirit or creator. Did this all start with a Big Bang? The universe was created and we evolved into what we are today.
I wonder what created the conditions for the Big Bang, matter, evolution, and consciousness. Saying it just happened, get over it. You are born then you die. That’s it.

Seems like we would all have a better life thinking, believing that’s there is more to it than you are born then you die-That’s it!

Howard
Howard
Jun 18, 2022 4:20 PM
Reply to  Mark41

The very fact, valid or not, that you are born, then you die is itself a set-in-stone recipe for valuing life – everyone’s life. Not for dis-valuing it or considering it worthless.

Life is even more precious if it’s all there will ever be.

If a crust of bread is all you will ever have to eat…that crust is of infinitely greater value than a banquet.

Mark41
Mark41
Jun 18, 2022 4:45 PM
Reply to  Howard

What you say may very well be true. You may then want to get everything out of life you can regardless of possible consequences. For me though, I don’t think it would have made any difference-Should I do this or that because I am going to die anyway. I don’t remember making a decision based on, what the hellI I’m going to die anyway.

To me, if you think there may some consequences of your actions when you die, you might think a little more about your actions and that’s a good thing.

Howard
Howard
Jun 18, 2022 5:53 PM
Reply to  Mark41

The possible consequences are fine tuned by religion – that’s its job. So if I just up and kill someone I might go to hell; but if I up and kill a million “infidels” in the name of my God, I’ll go to heaven.

The only consequence of any consequence is whether something is right or wrong in and of itself. Killing someone would only be “right” if that someone had managed somehow to get your lungs to breathe for him or your blood to flow in his veins.

Mark41
Mark41
Jun 18, 2022 6:45 PM
Reply to  Howard

Well not to belabor the point, but humans are flawed. We are all flawed. Some or more flawed than others. One might tell small lies, be a bit selfish and another might cut your throat in a NY minute because they don’t like the way you look or for $10.

So people of religion have and do kill people. Governments (people) kill people for whatever reasons they justify to themselves and others. They are not immune from being flawed.

If I am just going to die and my life has no consequences other than what pleases me and I should do what I want as long as I don’t get caught and punished. That’s ok. Heck, I can just kill someone if it gives me pleasure. Just don’t get caught.

There has to be consequences for doing bad things. I think there is good, bad, evil behavior in humans. Society (humans) make rules to follow and, I think, it’s better to have a belief that there is more to it than that.

I wonder what would you prefer. You live 80-90 years then that’s it or there is possibly something more that we do not understand. I think I would prefer something more. A bigger purpose. But that’s just me and I’m rambling.

Watchtower
Watchtower
Jun 18, 2022 11:48 AM

Believe in God and in the invisible and in life after death was common place in ancient people’ world view, not because of “simple mindedness” or lack of rational reasoning as the modern man likes to putting it looking down on them. Rather it was the result of directly experiencing of the world, says nature (which in my view is the manifestation of the divine attributes) beyond the five senses. Their 6th sense (divine consciousness) was then very intensely activated. This have led to the discovery of many fundemental realities modern people still profusely benefiting from, knowingly or unknowingly. Materialists dressed in heavy armors of technology are blinded and trapped in their arrogance to such a degree that they miss the most obvious thing even children are intuitively aware of…

Howard
Howard
Jun 18, 2022 4:27 PM
Reply to  Watchtower

Not all materialists are drawn to technology or even to science. I despise both; yet I fully accept the material nature of reality.

Clustering things has been one of man’s greatest errors. Let’s see now: spiritualist? okay, here’s the bullet list; materialist? okay here’s that bullet list.

Life is more complex than a reductio ad absurdum dynamic.

George Mc
George Mc
Jun 18, 2022 9:38 AM

Irrelevant rant mode: I make a point of not watching TV news. But when I occasionally catch it I can’t believe how viciously dumb and manipulative it is. Last night there was a report on some guy who was murdered abroad. We got the “deeply concerned” narrative voice. And then passed over to the relatives who start to crack. And then break down. And you expect the camera to discreetly fade to something else and respect the dignity and privacy of the bereaved. But no! On and on it pokes at the same scene. And we get to “relish” every sob!

Meanwhile – thousands collapsing after the vax. Any coverage? Don’t be stupid!

Marilyn Shepherd
Marilyn Shepherd
Jun 18, 2022 3:22 PM
Reply to  George Mc

And the west pretending to care about Ukrainians who are not refugees while doing their best to turn away refugees who are and no one from the UK, US or Australia charged with the millions of war crimes we have committed in multiple countries while we are killing the man who exposed them.

On a good note, Twatter have permanently banned me for ”breaking the rules” I didn’t know existed – the singular worst platform ever invented thinks a no body from rural Australia is a danger to them What a fucking joke.

jubal hershaw
jubal hershaw
Jun 19, 2022 3:03 AM

Ignorance of The Law is not a defence, as the guy K in Kafka’s The Trial learned.
Big Tech considers you guilty of ignorance.
You can book-out, but you can never leave.

NameWithheld
NameWithheld
Jun 18, 2022 9:37 AM

Life after Death?

to my mind, most people don’t even have a Life after Birth.

I’d suggest starting with that and not worrying about the other.