ISIS Terrorist Attack in Manchester? 17 Days Before Crucial UK Elections

by Peter Koenig, from Global Research

Image source: BBC.

British elections are planned for 8 June 2017.

At the end of a pop concert by US singer Ariana Grande in Manchester, an enormous ‘controlled’ explosion killed at least 22 people and injured 59, as reported by British media. Many of them are children and adolescents, as most of the concert-goers were young people.

The singer is unharmed. The concert hall accommodates 21,000 people. After the blast, panic broke loose, resulting in a mass stampede. It is not clear whether people were also killed in the stampede.

Hours after the explosion, although BBC reported it was not evident what exactly happened, UK police and authorities talked immediately of an act of terror.
Early Tuesday morning, 23 May, British authorities said that the Islamic State (IS) claimed responsibility for the explosion. The Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, Ian Hopkins, stated investigators believe the attack was carried out by a lone suicide bomber “carrying” a homemade device. He was killed by the blast.
The IS-Propaganda agency Amak apparently issued the claim of IS’s responsibility for the deadly blast. Did an independent authority check whether this is indeed true?
The attacker, is now named by US officials (why US officials?) as Salman Abedi, 22, a British citizen, born in the UK. He is told having detonated the improvised explosive device.
Another 23-year-old suspect was apprehended in the south of Manchester. But so far, the Chief Police Officer refused to talk to the media about suspects.
Prime Minister, Theresa May raised the threat warning to the highest level, from ‘severe’ to ‘critical’, saying other attacks may follow. This is the highest security level in the UK. She also urged police to investigate whether the attacker was alone or may have acted as a member of a wider terror group.
The attack is the worst in the UK since 56 people were killed in the 7 July London bombings in 2005.
Both, Theresa May and her election opponent, Labor Leader Jeremy Corbyn expressed their deep sorrow to the victims’ families. All campaign activities for the 8 June elections have been suspended.
Mr. Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, proclaiming on what the raised threat level means for the city, said,

there will be additional police officers on London’s streets over the coming days – including additional armed officers. You will also see some military personnel around London – they are there to help our police service to keep us safe and guard key sites.”

The head of Counter Terrorism at the Metropolitan Police, Mr. Mark Rowley, informed that

there has been an arrest and there are currently multiple searches and other activity taking place as I speak. However, at this stage it is still not possible to be certain if there was a wider group involved in the attack; 24 hours in we have a number of investigative leads that we are pursuing to manage the ongoing threat.”

All of this points to a rapid militarization of the UK, akin to France. What EU country will be next?
Was it The ISIS, Who is Behind the ISIS?
Why would the Islamic State kill children in England, when they know exactly that this provokes further NATO – EU – US military aggression against them?
And why in England, just before elections?
Do they not know that they incite election results unfavorable to them, unfavorable to Muslim society, electing the candidate that promises even more discrimination against Muslims? A candidate even less eager to find a peaceful solution in the Middle East?
Of course, they know.
Known and documented ISIS- Daesh, Al-Qaeda and most other terror groups fighting in the Middle East proxy-wars for the West, are constructs of US intelligence. ISIS is financed by America’s staunched Middle East ally Saudi Arabia. This relationship has to be addressed. Who are the State sponsors of terrorism.
We, The People, should wake up to this reality.
Are these terror attacks being used to dupe the public into accepting more “protection”, like a gradual but ever accelerating militarization of the West. Even the installation of Martial Law is not far-fetched. Former French President Hollande tried to introduce it in France’s Constitution in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo terror attack; so far unsuccessfully.
See: Germany and NATO: Towards Martial Law, Preparing for a “Fascist Repression” in Europe? and French Election Fraud? Will Macron be Able to Form a Government?
This gives the Deep State-installed EU government, i.e. Brussels, the legitimacy to clamp down and if needed violently repress protests in European cities, as they may arise with increasing neoliberal financial domination of western economies, imposed austerities, privatization of public services, educations systems, health care – cuts in pensions, in brief, the imposition of a repressive economic system. We are almost there, just look at Greece.

***

As always, the question to ask is Cui Bono?

At first sight it looks like the tragic Manchester act of terror could benefit Theresa May and her conservative Tories. They propagate clamping down on terrorism, on immigration to keep ‘terrorists’ out. Snap-elections decided without much warning by PM Theresa May, are scheduled for 8 June, just 17 days away from the attack, but enough time to launch massive pro-conservative and anti-Labor propaganda.
Interestingly, Jeremy Corbyn has been making rapid gains lately in the polls. The supposed ‘terror’ attack, may set his gains back and advance the “pro-security” Tory leader, Theresa May. As if Jeremy Corbyn and Labor were against ‘security’ – This is the implied falsehood of the presstitute – foreseeable, like in The Theft of an Election Foretold.
Interestingly too, the recent French elections were also preceded by a terror attack. Just days ahead of the first round of elections, a gunman opened fire on a police car on Champs Élysées, killing one policeman and injuring two, the gunman was immediately killed by French police; the chief witness gone.
End of story.

Peter Koenig is an economist and geopolitical analyst. He is also a former World Bank staff and worked extensively around the world in the fields of environment and water resources. He lectures at universities in the US, Europe and South America. He writes regularly for Global Research, ICH, RT, Sputnik, PressTV, The 4th Media (China), TeleSUR, The Vineyard of The Saker Blog, and other internet sites. He is the author of Implosion – An Economic Thriller about War, Environmental Destruction and Corporate Greed – fiction based on facts and on 30 years of World Bank experience around the globe.
The original source of this article is Global Research. Copyright © Peter Koenig, Global Research, 2017

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binra
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“No one understood better than Stalin that the true object of propaganda is neither to convince nor even to persuade, but to produce a uniform pattern of public utterance in which the first trace of unorthodox thought immediately reveals itself as a jarring dissonance.” ~ Alan Bullock, in Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives I might add ‘incurring penalty’ My sense is that most are intuitively but unconsciously guided to evade their own fear of pain and loss – as well as pain and loss! And like children, take our cues from the ‘parents’ as to what is and is not… Read more »

binra
Reader

Insanity of an active identity in the lie – multiplies to tare up the mind that can be induced to listen there. It is unwise in my opinion, to react to what might have occurred or may be projected and feared to have occurred as if it HAS, IS occurred or will re-occur. Triggering reaction is the art of manipulative mind – and even if an event is only what it seems to be, the USE of it for private agenda remains. ‘What do I use it for?’ is MY first responsibility. If I retrain my mind to rest from… Read more »

carinaragno
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Matt
Reader
Matt

[FROM ADMIN: PLEASE NOTE THIS INDIVIDUAL ALSO POSTS UNDER THE NAME OF “CARLOS” AND USES AT LEAST 3 SEPARATE EMAIL ADDRESSES, INTERACT WITH “HIM” AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION] Disgusting. I always knew the so-called “alt media” landscape had a penchant for filthy conspiracy theories, but this is just too much. Calling terror attacks “false flags” is low, and requires evidence, of which this author has none of. I notice it’s always the same reasoning used by these lunatics: “cui bono”. Utterly fallacious logic. The people who fall for this disinformation are the same as those who harass the grieving parents… Read more »

George
Reader
George

“Not even the MSM is this filthy.”
Pretending to be against the MSM while a the same time upholding their lies. Clever.

Admin
Reader

Critique the content please. Empty appeals to outrage or arguments from incredulity do not work here. It’s no more shocking to suggest the government may have been involved than it is to suggest a lone lunatic did it. There’s no insult to the dead involved in trying to work out who killed them.
As for evidence. Cui bono , or “motive” is a recognised argument for culpability in law. and Gladio has made it clear that states do collude with, manipulate and even create terrorist groups.

Norman Pilon
Reader

For the doubting Thomases, a crumb for you to pick over:
John Atkinson, 26, one of the alleged victims who died, is being remembered by the “Freak Dance Radcliff.” The dance school’s Facebook page is here: Freak Dance Radcliff
Here is the link to the comments commemorating him: here
I’m sure it’s fake as hell. I leave it to StAug and Sylvie to walk us through the details of the fraud at hand.
(hope the links work)
I’ll see what else I can come up with that perhaps corroborates the ‘fact’ that there were victims in Manchester.
[edited by Admin 27/05 to fix link]

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

Why are you being so snarky? I am not saying there were no victims. I’m saying we shouldn’t just believe this story any more than we would believe any story that comes out of the media. I can’t walk you thru the fraud as you say, because I don’t say there is fraud. I am just looking at what I see and some things seem to not make sense in terms of being real. I made a list of them down the thread that no one has responded to and which you could look at if you cared to. Like,… Read more »

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

Does anyone know what John Atkinson studied? I’ve spent hours scrolling through the pics on Freak Dance Radcliffe’s FB page but haven’t found any pics of John at a class or any video of him dancing. The only pic I can see is the one added after he allegedly and sadly died, which doesn’t seem to be at a dance class. It’s one of the three or four that are all over the media. Why didn’t they put up a nicer more appropriate pic of John dancing or in costume or attending a class or hanging out with people from… Read more »

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

John Atkinson’s memorialized FB page has no friends publicly listed, no employers, no family, and only two visible photos, one of which isn’t of him. There’s a vid of him with some people singing in what looks like a pub. But it’s only 7 secs long. I was a bit interested in the fact one of the groups he was a member of is “see who visits your profile.”
https://www.facebook.com/john.atkinson.3785/about?
lst=100008853630324%3A685196993%3A1495893306
Right well, that’s me done since no one is interested in following up or even talking about it.

Norman Pilon
Reader

What do you make of this, Sylvie:
Chloe Rutherford and Liam Curry

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

You are being snarky and think I’m too stupid to know it. Get over yourself and just talk straight. The link to the comments says it isn’t available right now. Can you see it? I looked at Liam Curry’s FB page, which you can easily find. What’s visible is quite basic, but that could be because he kept a lot of posts private. Most of the FB pages belonging to people connected to this look the same. Quite basic and often really bare. Some are more detailed. I don;t see any proof either way there. So now why don’t you… Read more »

Norman Pilon
Reader

Let go the “snarky,” Sylvie. Or I will get snarky. Not really, but I’ll write as though you got me in “that” mood. I’ll be faking it, but convincingly. I haven’t yet decided how stupid you may be. So you are wrong about what you imagine I may be thinking about you, whoever you may be. I’ve been over myself since forever, Sylvie. And I always talk straight. Do relax and try to de-twitch some. Now that we got that out of the way: yes. I have access. No. I’m not taking any screen shots. I’ve provided links. You’ll have… Read more »

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

I have been reading and looking. You and Mog both seem to need to be insulting to people who don’t agree with you. I posted a long list of info about when the news was breaking and some of the odd things about it, which you just ignore. I click on your links and I discuss them. You ignore mine and then you have the nerve to get snarky with me about not reading! I know they have FB pages and pictures. But – duh – they can be easily faked. If you’re going to create the illusion of fake… Read more »

StAug
Reader

Sylvie! You’re doing great work and I appreciate it! Ignore whatever hostility you attract hereabouts and treat it as an ironic amusement.

Nicholas Rose
Reader
Nicholas Rose

Sylvie, If you came across a pile of dead bodies or people writhing in agony, would your first thought really be “Oh dear, I must get that out on Twitter, right away?” And have you ever heard real explosions? They don’t sound like speakers blowing out, believe me. And you can easily run out of a crowded building and not see dead bodies if there are other people between you and the dead bodies. There will have been many more people leaving the area without seeing anything than there will have been of those close to the blood. And how… Read more »

StAug
Reader

“Sylvie, If you came across a pile of dead bodies or people writhing in agony, would your first thought really be “Oh dear, I must get that out on Twitter, right away?”
No, but your average teen with an i-phone certainly would.

Norman Pilon
Reader

“You and Mog both seem to need to be insulting to people who don’t agree with you.” Sylvie, you don’t know who I am from Adam, and you’ve never had a sustained conversation with me. How can you possibly feel insulted by someone who doesn’t know you and, therefore, cannot presume to be able to judge you in any way whatsoever? So my tone is, according to you, snarky. I fancy it’s something different, but I’m not at the receiving end, so maybe you’re right. Who cares. Let it go. I’m not going to change the way I write or… Read more »

JGarbo
Reader
JGarbo

Norman’s working awfully here, for free. What’s his full time job?

Admin
Reader

Norman, don’t play silly games. Sylvie qualified her first statement about Facebook with what she would consider an important distinction, which you ignored in order to ridicule her point and make a false claim she was being contradictory. She also has produced a lot of links which, whatever you may think of her claims, you ought to engage with rather than ignore. None of us have clicked on her links, but then again we aren’t bothering to engage with her either. if you are going to engage with her at least have the grace to look at her evidence

Norman Pilon
Reader

If I am playing silly games, I am not aware that I am. Sylvie’s comments were, until now, peripheral to my attention. When I wrote the first comment of this string of comments, I vaguely recalled that she had suggested somewhere that Facebook should be a place where we might look for “evidence” of the actual existence and demise of the Manchester victims. Maybe I had dreamed that. Maybe she had never made the suggestion. In my opinion, if it had been her suggestion or that of anyone else, it was a good suggestion. . It struck me as I… Read more »

Admin
Reader

It was unfair to suggest you were playing games. You’re a valued and respected contributor here. There’s no shame in needing down time, it happens to all of us. It’s a stressful and unrewarding job. Hope to see you back and refreshed soon.

Norman Pilon
Reader

I wouldn’t say it was entirely unfair . . . I see how it read and it does come off as “playing.”

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

So I found the website for Freakdance, the school Liam Curry was allegedly attending. It’s a funny old place. http://freak-dance.co.uk It’s allegedly got three branches in the North West of England, which sounds legit. But – only ONE of the staff is listed with a last name! And only three have bios on the site , and none of them have photos! http://freak-dance.co.uk/faculty/ And even tho the school has been going since 2010 it’s only got 20 testimonials posted, and they’re ALL from July and August 2016! http://freak-dance.co.uk/testimonials-guestbook/ That’s a bit weird innit. Oh yeah and check out the faculty… Read more »

JGarbo
Reader
JGarbo

Could be an “off the shelf” legend to be used in a Gladio-style op. Barely plausible but good enough for the general public.
Since FB is a convenient legend factory for intelligence services, you’d expect a “corroborating” site there, too, to “prove” the authenticity of the first.
In a rush, they’d use the same “editor”. Might see similarities in the postings, etc. Close examination of the pix metadata might be interesting, if it hasn’t been wiped.
These “terror” attacks wreak of Gladio. First, in the 1960-80s against Communists & Socialists, now against Muslim scapegoats. It will continue.

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

I tell a lie, there is an FB page for the FreakDance in Bury as well
https://www.facebook.com/freakdancebury

Norman Pilon
Reader

Why are you so twitchy, Sylvie? I’m not being snarky. I’m being economical with my words.
There are two links. Did you try them both? The first link does indeed take you to some pics. Assuming you are being taken to the same collection as I’m being taken to, try the image of the man in uppermost left, that would be a picture of John.

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

This is what I see when I click on your second link.
“Sorry, this content isn’t available right now
The link you followed may have expired, or the page may only be visible to an audience you’re not in.”
What do you see?

Norman Pilon
Reader

I see a large picture of John. And to the right, under a heading that reads, Freak Dance Radcliffe Like This Page · May 23 · I see this official statement by the school: Today is an amazingly sad day! We have lost a member of our dance family. John was always an amazingly happy gentle person and a real pleasure to teach when he came to our adult classes and even competed for Freak Dance. He was a true friend, not just to our staff but many of the parents and students from the school. Our thoughts are with… Read more »

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

So, why do you have access and I don’t? Bit weird isn’t. Do you have mutual friends?

Norman Pilon
Reader

No. But I’m in Canada. I wonder if that might make the difference. On Facebook, I have no friends, for being too much of a straight talker ;-), and I’ve never asked anyone to be my friend. The only reason I signed up was to be able to do what I’m doing now, namely, to snoop around, but anonymously.
So if anyone who is reading these comments can figure this out, Sylvie and I need your help.

Admin
Reader

I think there was just an error in the link

mog
Reader
mog

@Catte Yes, I realise that people might say that I am not substantiating my argument. I am doing it deliberately as a means of goading people to go and look for themselves. Don’t you want to know? I assure you it takes little time – I have linked to a local Manchester newspaper full of details, names of the deceased and their relatives, colleagues and friends of deceased that can easily be checked on twitter, Facebook and through things like Linked In. I have not been remotely convinced that StAug or Sylvia are prepared to challenge their own thinking and… Read more »

Catte
Reader
Catte

No need to grandstand at me Mog. I have no dog in this fight and I’m not saying anything was faked. If you don’t want to post your source that’s fine, but don’t get preachy about other posters not “bothering to challenge their own thinking,” when you are obviously so reluctant to do that yourself.

mog
Reader
mog

Terrible reply Catte. I really admire your writing, but that is such a heartless response.
I will not come here again.

Catte
Reader
Catte

I think you need to take time. Let’s draw a line under this and move on. And thank you for admiring my work. That’s always appreciated.

Willem
Reader
Willem

I don’t know what happened in Manchester but do know that eye witness accounts of those who are victim of terrorists attacks but survived, are seldomly heard of, if at all, even when the terrorist attack did happen. I can say this with certainty as I was standing in the Sari club discotheque in Bali 2002 when two bombs went of and killed 202 people. Eye witnesses, like me, never have a say in what actually happened during and after the terrorist attack, unless it serves the story that is spun by the MSM (generally speaking: there are evil people… Read more »

Catte
Reader
Catte

Well we have solved one mystery. I posted the above comment with your email and it went straight to the spam folder. I looked further and your other comments were also there. It doesn’t solve the ongoing problem though because we always check the spam folder when people tell us their comments have gone astray – there’s usually nothing there that shouldn’t be there. I have zero clues as to why your comments were being spammed and can’t promise it won’t happen again.

girlafraid
Reader
BigB
Reader
BigB

Guys, remember what Karl Rove said: we (the Empire) act; and while you are still scratching your heads and debating our actions – we move on. It’s the ultimate misdirection – create a pause in reality between the primary event and its perception and assimilation. In the meantime, the actors seem to be instigating a coup on our streets. I’ve not seen anything like it, even at the height of the ‘Troubles’ – kids being encouraged to take selfies with cops with guns? They are certainly normalising our perception and acceptance of a military self-occupation force and armed police. What… Read more »

StAug
Reader

To contextualize the current Event: here’s a blast from the past: this is how they handled interviews with a “medical team” way back in 2011 (the BHO administration’s first dabble in the False Flag game?)… please note the “surgeon’s” knowledgeable description of the parts of the brain impacted by the “bullet” (it gets a little technical, so keep a medical reference book handy):
https://youtu.be/tCW7o07e4Qo?t=80

StAug
Reader

(you’ll have to follow this link to YouTube to view the vid)

Norman Pilon
Reader

And this “proves” what about the reality or unreality of Manchester? It’s relevant, how? Maybe nobody died in Manchester? Maybe. Where do we go from there, StAug?

StAug
Reader

Norm, perhaps you’ve been body-snatched by a Guardian reader… not sure. But I’m not going to pantomime a conversation with a fan of the Colbert Report here, so… yeah. Whatever. The video is there for Proper Paranoids to use as a reference and a resource. Feel free to ignore.

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

Right so more interesting things I am finding. Bear with me if it’s a mess as I am not used to posting stuff like this. 1] 10: 30 PM The bomb explosion is said to have happened at around 10.30 pm in the foyer of the arena. There was allegedly loads of blood and flesh and stuff and dead and dying people all over the place. 2] 11 PM {THIRTY MINUTES having gone by) Sky News is reporting a speaker could have blown out. https://tvforum.uk/forums/post1061177#post-1061177 3] 11: 16 PM [FORTY-FIVE MINUTES have gone by] and Five Live is getting eyewitnesses… Read more »

StAug
Reader

Good work!

Seamus Padraig
Reader
Seamus Padraig

Well, well! The Guardian is on to us ‘conspiracy theorists’ now. Gaby Hinsliff actually took time out of her busy schedule pushing imperial propaganda to attack all those who question the Manchester bombing narrative. Using the standard CIA/MI6 playbook, she starts off by likening our suspicions regarding the recent bombing to the ‘lunar landing was a hoax’ belief. Next, she works in the obligatory reference to tinfoil hats, and then she moves on to demolish some strawman-versions of various well-known conspiracy theories, including the bombing. Regarding Manchester, for example, she tries to represent all of us skeptics as people who… Read more »

flybow
Reader
flybow

“Got it? The MSM are free to spout any old evidence-free nonsense they like”
Exactly mate.

Admin
Reader

Our Kit has just written a piece in response to it

StAug
Reader

“Using the standard CIA/MI6 playbook, she starts off by likening our suspicions regarding the recent bombing to the ‘lunar landing was a hoax’ belief.” The beauty of that being that it was! Laugh. “The only real way forward is surely to reverse the burden of proof somehow; to create a new social norm that it’s for conspiracists to prove their nonsense, not for the reality-based community to waste time dismantling it.” Surely that’s the status quo and it always has been. The burden of proof, when one is trying to convince a bunch of deeply-brainwashed NormLibs that things are not… Read more »

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

This is from an interview with an alleged surgical nurse who allegedly treated some of the alleged victims of the alleged bombing. Someone else in the comments posted a link to it as proof the bombing was real (she got really emotional about it, which of course is how we are supposed to be because emotion shuts down our analytical faculties.) . But the thing is, if the Guardian published a similar interview with someone claiming there had been a gas attack in Syria this person would be sceptical. This person would say “why should we trust the Guardian?” Yet… Read more »

mog
Reader
mog

All reads like the testimony of a legit nurse responding to a bomb attack to me.
Don’t you think that someone at Stepping Hill Hospital might have something to say if nurse Joe o’Brien was not an employee, and no victims were treated in their hospital, yet her testimony was all over the media?
….and so on and so on.
Maybe they have all been bought off?
You haven’t really thought about this have you?

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

Yes, I have thought about it, and I think it’s important we treat each other with respect. I’m not claiming she isn’t a nurse at the hospital. I’m saying we shouldn’t just take the Guardian’s word for this like we don’t take the Guardian’s word for how stupid Corbyn is or what is going on in Syria. As to whether we would hear from people if a fake nurse was to pop up being interviewed. Where would we hear from them? In the Guardian? On the BBC? We’d hear if they went to an alternative news site. Or if their… Read more »

StAug
Reader

“Maybe they have all been bought off?” How many people, would you estimate, work for/with/in Intelligence? Do you think it’s a small number? Fewer than a few thousand? Here are some statistics (not that we expect them to be perfectly accurate, but the ballpark magnitude of the numbers is of interest), from c. 2010: “These are some of the findings of a two-year investigation by The Washington Post that discovered what amounts to an alternative geography of the United States, a Top Secret America hidden from public view and lacking in thorough oversight. After nine years of unprecedented spending and… Read more »

mog
Reader
mog

You are not making any sense to me. Are you suggesting that nurse O’Brien is an intelligence actor? If you did some research you would quickly find online evidence, masses of it, all over the internet, relating to dozens of shrapnel victims being treated in five major hospitals in the Manchester area. Are you suggesting that all this has been planted by intelligence actors? There are thousands of employees at those hospitals, and none, to my knowledge have spoken of the absence of these victims and the false narrative spread all over the web and media about the work in… Read more »

StAug
Reader

“Are you suggesting that all this has been planted by intelligence actors?”
Ha ha. Again: you believe US Gov perpetrated 9/11… but you find all this somehow beyond the realm of the plausible….?

mog
Reader
mog

Yes I do.
I have heard no argument about the 911 evidence that compares. Maybe you can think of an example?

StAug
Reader

Are you joking?

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

You don’t know any of the people personally do you? All any of us have is FB stuff and MSM stuff.
If you found their FB pages check them out for how long they have been on FB and how much they post. Is it like a few shares but basically empty or is it full of personal stuff and in jokes? That’s a good place to start. If it’s full of personal posts and has loads of family connections who all look like each other then yeah, it’s probably real.

mog
Reader
mog

You are basically saying that unless you went and met those injured victims or witnesses personally, then you wouldn’t believe anything.
Fair enough, but it does make all this conversation utterly pointless.

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

You are basically saying that unless you went and met those injured victims or witnesses personally, then you wouldn’t believe anything.

No, I’m saying check out the FB pages you found. If they’re full of posts and trivia and family connections then they’re probably real. If they are really sparse and bare-looking then they aren’t evidence for much because anyone could create that and post date it.
Why not investigate? I don’t get it. Why is there a limit on finding things out?

mog
Reader
mog

I have and they do.
I am suggesting that you investigate.

Admin
Reader

Perhaps providing the links you found would be useful to those who want to follow through?

StAug
Reader

“Perhaps providing the links you found would be useful to those who want to follow through?” There are no magic links. MSM is in control of the narrative. The more “evidence”, the more material there is to pick apart in order to reveal the fabrications. That’s a function of time, although I fear they’ve learned not to overdo it (as in earlier Events). Until then, the best guide is the enormous amount of evidence accumulated from similar events of the Past. Isn’t that the value of any sort of Historical record? And we’re not talking about the 18th century… there’s… Read more »

mog
Reader
mog

Although I have them in front of me now, I will not and I will tell you why not. It is to try and encourage people to be active and discerning in their research. People so often get very lazy when they get attached to theories, and they need to get into the habit of challenging their own preferred presupposition about what happens in big events like Manchester. In this exchange I have read comments to the effect that people are simply weighing up different evidential piles and coming to a conclusion. This is not true though. What I see… Read more »

Catte
Reader
Catte

I’m coming into this late but I have to say that strikes me as a very unhelpful, not to say obstructive position. Aren’t we all on the same side here, looking for the truth? You are also laying yourself wide open to the accusation you have no such links. I’m sure that’s not true, but people will think or say it anyway.
It’s your call though.

StAug
Reader

“You are basically saying that unless you went and met those injured victims or witnesses personally, then you wouldn’t believe anything.”
That’s pretty close to a Logically Skeptical Position, but let me tweak that for you: Extraordinary Claims require Commensurate Proof.
“Fair enough, but it does make all this conversation utterly pointless.”
Well, depends on what your objectives in “conversation” are. If your aim is to establish a Limit beyond which Skepticism isn’t allowed to pass, then, yes, your version of conversation is pointless when you’re dealing with a Skeptic. Especially one who can’t be swayed by cheap appeals to Emotional Overreaction.

Norman Pilon
Reader

There is no limit that skepticism cannot “logically” go beyond. You can even, if you want to, “logically” doubt the existence of other people and even of yourself. If everything is mediated through possibly faulty channels of apperception, “logically” you cannot claim to “know” or to be able to “prove” anything at all about the world. How do you know anybody outside your immediate acquaintances has ever died? By your standards, if you are to stand faithfully by them, it can’t ever be known. So why do you obsess so much over the alleged victims of Manchester? Because maybe there… Read more »

StAug
Reader

Norm, when you (as an apparent reflex) accept and support the unsupported (except by MSM) narrative that a Muslim murdered 20 kids, you are helping to pusgh an agenda that transcends, even, May’s polling problem, or the boost this gives to Trump’s “travel ban”. Maybe a Muslim did and maybe he didn’t do the very thing, but what I’m trying to remind you that that only “proof” you have comes from a resource (MSM and tributaries) you have called a Liar 1,000 times since the beginning of the year. So, why do you choose now to advocate a narrative TPTB… Read more »

StAug
Reader

(erratum: ignore the typo plague; the perils of replying from that tiny box on my WordPress page)

BigBG
Reader
BigBG

Here, Here. There’s been a (temporary?) Police State Coup while we are still metaphorically picking over the rubble. What next? War in Syria? I very much think that is on the cards.

mog
Reader
mog

We are discussing second or third hand evidence that has come to us through the media. That is the only material that we have to work with (apart from me who has a friend who has relayed comments from colleagues directly involved), so if one party in the discussion relegates all such class of mediated evidence as wholly untrustworthy then there is no point in continuing. From a radically empirical perspective it makes a certain sense I suppose, but as we all readily accept such mediated information all the time as part of modern life, it does seem a bit… Read more »

StAug
Reader

Who knows if we’ll disagree vociferously on some issue in the future (wink), but it’s a relief that you (and a couple of others, including BigB) seem to remain Rationally Skeptical when the Emotional Buttons have been pressed by this Event and its Brand Ambassador(s) in the threads. Emotions kick in and the Higher Thinking jumps out the window, apparently. Which is precisely the function of SANDY HOOK UK.

mog
Reader
mog

There are posters on here who are questioning whether anybody died or was injured in Manchester on Monday night.
There are articles about each fatal victim here if you follow the links.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-victims-named-dead-terror–13080028
Facebook posts, quotes from relatives and friends, the works.
It took about 2 minutes research on the web.
It is all very well claiming that you are being skeptical, sifting info and applying logic, but the truth is that you are not. Doubt is essential but doubting beyond a certain rational point is illogical.
Where does ‘doubt’ stop?
Does Manchester even exist ?.
How do you know?
Have you been there?

Aaron Lowe
Reader

“Does Manchester even exist?”
Well, I have personally been to the place claiming to be Manchester, 26 years ago during something called the Global Peace Forums.
I have no way to prove it though, so although Manchester exists in my reality I cannot claim that it exists in your reality (and I am not so arrogant to assume it does).

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

Calm down. There’s nothing wrong with being sceptical. Remember there are people who think you are nuts for doubting anything you read in the MSM. The fact my doubts go further than yours doesn’t mean we have to hate each other. Ok.Maybe there is enough evidence it really happened. But let’s just take a minute. Facebook isn’t evidence on its own. FB accounts can be created, backdated and totally manipulated.. There are probably literally millions of fake accounts out there set up as jokes or hoaxes or social experiments or to put over propaganda. So a simple FB account alone… Read more »

mog
Reader
mog

I have spent an inordinate amount of time arguing for people to stop believing what they consume in the MSM. I have spent a fair amount of time trying to get people to research 911. I have heard the argument innumerable times where I am accused of ‘conspiracy thinking’, of irrational skepticism, confirmation bias, of making unfalsifiable arguments. I know what that feels like. There is, though some truth to the assertion that doubt can go too far. It is fair enough to doubt official statements, esp. highly controlled accounts (such as those from a warzone). It is incumbent in… Read more »

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

You’re making the same point the believers in the official 9/11 story make tho aren’t you. You’re saying something like “this is so obviously true there’s no reason to doubt it or go around asking for evidence.”
Why did the bomb move? Why were there fake victim pics going viral on Twitter? That’s not proof it was fake but its questions needing answers. We can’t just be like “doubt can go too far” and close our eyes.

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

Anyone can post a fake victim picture on twitter, because there are a lot of sick f***s out there. Concluding that all these people are part of one conspiracy is another thing. You need some evidence to support this theory other than what you believe might be the truth.

mog
Reader
mog

I am saying go and research 911, go and research Manchester. I am saying that research into 911 quickly reveals that the official story is bullshit, just as research into Manchester quickly reveals that bona fide real people have been killed. You are pointing out conflicting narratives that emerged in the event and expanding them to the supposition that it is possible or likely that the whole thing was fabricated and there were no victims. That is not logical or rational. Why were there fake victims on Twitter? I don’t know. Spooks sometimes have been known to plant confusing ‘flak’,… Read more »

StAug
Reader

“Not knowing the answer to that doesn’t mean that there isn’t heaps of connected and re-confirming evidence that 22 people were killed by a nail bomb and many more injured.” An MSM-supported narrative is not quite “heaps of confirming evidence”, since the sources are all the same; it’s not a case of streams from diverging sources that tend to corroborate one another, it’s one story coming from various vents in the same source, which being: the People in Power who are perpetrating the hoax. These people have vast resources to invest in hoaxing an event meant to achieve a cascade… Read more »

mog
Reader
mog

With respect, I have to leave this discussion here. I do not think you are willing to go and research your own theory that the deaths of Manchester did not happen; that the victims did not exist; that all the witnesses are lying to the media, to social media and presumably (for the sake of containment) to all their friends and family as well, and will do for the rest of their lives. The evidence supporting such a theory is virtually non existent, whereas the evidence supporting the theory that people did die and were injured is abundant, corroborating and… Read more »

StAug
Reader

” I do not think you are willing to go and research your own theory that the deaths of Manchester did not happen” We’ve all done the same “research”, which means we have evaluated the “evidence” provided by the same essential Institutions, via their mouthpiece (MSM), which even you agree were either behind, or colluded with those behind, the 9/11 False Flag. Why you would then take MSM’s “info” at face value? Your notion of “research” is peculiar: it means reading The Guardian (among other venues, including the alt-Left Disinfo sites). This: “all the witnesses are lying to the media,… Read more »

StAug
Reader

“I am saying that research into 911 quickly reveals that the official story is bullshit, just as research into Manchester quickly reveals that bona fide real people have been killed.”
You have failed to articulate the difference between the level of the “evidence” “supporting” the former and that of the “evidence” “supporting” the latter.

mog
Reader
mog

I have never read a serious argument contesting that people died on 911, so I do not see the comparison.
When people are killed they leave a lot of traces behind. They did on 911 and they have this week in Manchester.

StAug
Reader

The comparison: fake “witness testimony”, implausibly thin “video evidence”, simulated perpetrators, an obvious agenda and no reason to believe in MSM as a credible source of Info

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

I have seen compelling evidence that none of the people on the planes in 9/11 died (including the so called terrorists). As for those in the Towers, I don’t think anyone is contesting those deaths.

StAug
Reader

“I have spent an inordinate amount of time arguing for people to stop believing what they consume in the MSM. I have spent a fair amount of time trying to get people to research 911.” vs “There is, though some truth to the assertion that doubt can go too far.” Classic Cognitive Dissonance. Common to either A) confused people B) Disinfo Agents. So, you “believe” US Gov pulled off (and got away with) 9/11 (bringing down several skyscrapers and attacking the Pentagon, among other things, with tens of thousands of witnesses)… YET can’t seem to accept that any Agency in… Read more »

mog
Reader
mog

No that is a logical fallacy.
I CAN accept that a UK agency could fake a suicide bombing, and have not said otherwise.
What I HAVE said is that researching quickly reveals that this is not the case Manchester.
There is no dissonance. I believe in following evidence.
‘Let’s get empirical’ as D R Griffin used to say.

StAug
Reader

“What I HAVE said is that researching quickly reveals that this is not the case Manchester.”
You have not pointed to a class of “evidence” more convincing than the class of evidence traditionally used in these events (aka Witness Testimony)… I therefore question why you accept some “Conspiracy Theories” supported by the same sort of evidence supporting this “Conspiracy Theory” which you, conversely, reject rather strongly.

mog
Reader
mog

I do not understand that question.
I support theories that are supported by the most compelling evidence (or whatever class or nature) and that are internally coherent and self confirming.

Aaron Lowe
Reader

The problem is what is most compelling is what fits your or view. We all have a natural bias. It’s human and unavoidable.
What is internally coherent is by all definitions totally subjective. As it, by all definitions, what is self confirming.
So, basically what you’re saying is, you believe what you want to believe. That might not be the words you would choose but it is precisely what you are saying, whether you are aware of this or not.

Sylvie
Reader
Sylvie

Here is the victim list posted on the Guardian. Be dispassionate. Do some thinking. How many of these people have solid, verified backgrounds? How many photos pass the sniff test? I’m not saying they are fake. I’m saying let’s not just assume they aren’t.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/24/go-sing-with-the-angels-families-and-friends-pay-tribute-to-manchester-victims

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

Sylvie, you have no solid verified background. Neither do I. Neither does Admin or Off Graun itself for that matter. For all I know Off Graun is run by a server in a hackcentre in Russia. I have no way of knowing and neither do you. It’s easy to ask endless questions casting doubt on everything from the moon landings to the nutritional value of cornflakes but actually going out there and finding the evidence yourself is much harder.
Then, even if you find the evidence who is willing to listen?

StAug
Reader

What matters here is not what one can verify without a doubt; what matters is being resistant, essentially, to propaganda, which relies on the crystal of public opinion in order to accomplish its aims. The larger disruption one can cause in the propagandized uniformity of the crystal of public opinion, the weaker the propaganda becomes. The real battle in this thread is over the propensity (or not) to take MSM at its word… on anything. I’d argue that the philosophical underpinnings of the OFFG itself align with that. The Guardian is a wholly complicit, transparent tool in the propagation of… Read more »

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

“A space that has become super-charged by the spectre of the notion of “slaughterred children” is no longer a space that’s safe for Rational Thought”
That’s reasonable. Not everyone that was killed was a child anyway and since when is a child’s life worth more than an adults? All life is precious.

StAug
Reader

Correction: there’s no evidence that anyone was killed.

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

Define “no evidence”.
I’ve not seen any evidence that suggests that no one was killed. We are still talking about the Manchester bombing right?

StAug
Reader

Har! Not interested in rehashing several days’ worth of debate on all that. Believe whatever makes you happiest! You have my resoundingly disinterested blessing.

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

[copied from yesterday which was copied from day before. all originals got deleted (again)]
I am currently limited to 1 comment per day. All other comments are auto-censored.
I can’t even reply to folks who ask me questions.
Conversation is impossible.
This effects both my wordpress and facebook account. If I post on one then I can’t post on the other. The 1 comment per day cap is applied to both as if they’re being treated as one account.
I have reported this to Off Graun. As usual no reply from censorship central.

binra
Reader

Have you tried different browsers – and pre writing then pasting?
I would be more inclined to expect hanky panky from forces set against off Guardian’s freedom of communication. However – I appreciate you feel pissed off and impotent – but you are not the only one to have these issues. I’ve had a lot of hassle too. It still serves an accurate self-reflection. Maybe we forget to laugh at ourselves! But I don’t say that to laugh at you.
It’s easy to lose our peace. Far too easy don’t you think?

StAug
Reader

OffG does not, in my experience, censor. I’ve experienced technical glitches, though… esp with WordPress, which won’t let me comment on some fellow WordPress blogs! So, look to Facebook and/or WordPress…!

Admin
Reader

@aaronlowe
You’ve spammed at least four different threads with complaints of persecution and attacks on this site. You have completely clogged one of these threads [HERE] to the point it needs to be closed because it is loading too slowly – again with nothing but content-free complaints of persecution.
We have told you that, to protect the site for other users, any more such content-free posts will be treated like spam.
This does not apply to any posts you make that contain responses to articles or to other comments.

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

The problem is that this “resistance to propaganda” is itself propaganda, which I am resisting lol

StAug
Reader

Well, follow my Propaganda to its limit and you end up doing what? Distrusting The Party Line as a Preset. Now, follow the opposing Propaganda to its logical limit and you end up doing what? Finalizing The Police State by Incarcerating Muslims/ Dissidents and penalizing “unacceptable” speech. Blitzkrieging Syria. And so on.
More or less equal outcomes? Laugh

Aaron Lowe
Reader

It’s ok, StAug, I got my own propaganda that trumps the two extremes you mention. But you make a valid point about seeing where things lead and using that to inform direction.

Jen
Reader
Jen

Erm … is it possible that all the victims, or nearly all of them, happen to look white? Are all of Ariana Grande’s fans in Britain almost exclusively white and Westernised? No non-white victims of the suicide bomb attack?

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

It is possible but whether it is probable, I don’t know. You’d need access to the details of everyone who bought a ticket and all the staff working there, find out their nationality then compare it to those that were standing near the bomb as to whether it was improbable. A lot of work, and for what gain?

Alwin
Reader
Alwin

Corbyn was viciously attacked in the media the weekend before the Arena attack for his links to the IRA years previously. He was photographed with Jerry Adams captioned Blood Brothers. I was puzzled for the reason for this besmirching after so much time had elapsed since these photos were taken. Recall that the Arndale Centre (close to the Manchester Arena) bombing by the IRA had occurred in 1996. The reason became clear almost immediately after the Arena atrocity when the media were quick to point out the association between the Arena, Arndale, the IRA and Corbyn. Cui bono?

Aaron Lowe
Reader

This article seems to be contradicted by the other Off Graun article that points to “Libya/Syria Intervention”.
No doubt everyone will be absolutely confused, confounded and bewildered with utter bemusement, befuddlement and bamboozlement as to what the possible connection or contradiction is. I await with pure and exquisite anticipation 😀

Admin
Reader
Admin

We try to reflect a range of under-represented views rather than sell one specific editorial POV. If you just want your news filtered to the point where you don’t need to make any critical judgement then feel free to continue reading the MSM.

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

It’s a shame Off Graun don’t reflect my under-represented view. Oh well, like Hitler said, you can’t please everyone all the time eh….

Norman Pilon
Reader

And your minority view is . . . ?

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

That the truth cannot be based on 2nd hand information that can be easily faked. The only way to actually know something is to go out there and find direct evidence yourself. Anything less is heresay and rumour.
Then the most you can hope for is subjective proof. Objective proof is not possible. People choosing to believe so called 2nd hand “evidence” is not objective proof. We believe it only because it is convenient to do so.

Norman Pilon
Reader

Good grief! Then why are you here? There ain’t nothing but second-hand “information” here. And come to think of it, most of what I “reliably” know has come to me at second- and third- hand. How in the world did anyone on this planet who is human ever come to know as much as he or she does? Have you personally managed to verify firsthand every premise of every belief to which you hold? But I guess that since most of what is in my head is based only on second hand stuff, I don’t really know it. Although curiously,… Read more »

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

I wrote a long reply but it got deleted. Haven’t got energy to type it all again.

Catte
Reader
Catte

There’s an ongoing problem as we keep having to tell people. Best advice is to copy your post into a text editor before you hit the button of doom. It didn’t get deleted I promise you that.

Norman Pilon
Reader

Try this: navigate back to the page where you originally wrote your reply. In the comment box, your original comment should still be there. Make sure you copy and paste it somewhere safe, as in Word. Then refresh the page, and try replying again by pasting your original comment. Hope that helps.

aaronmicalowe
Reader
aaronmicalowe

I’ve searched for it but can’t find it. It’s lost. I normally keep a backup copy for Off Graun because the website used to have a habit of losing posts, but recently it hasn’t been doing that so I guess I got lazy.
Also, today I’ve noticed that some of my posts are getting “edited” after I have posted them. Since I don’t have the access level to edit posts it must be done by Admin.

Norman Pilon
Reader

Well, that’s unfortunate, especially given that you did put some time and effort into it. It happens to me, too, sometimes, and it is annoying. If you later decide you can get up the gumption, I really would be interested in what you have to say.
Regards,
-N

Seamus Padraig
Reader
Seamus Padraig

ISIS = Israeli State of Iraq and as-Sham

Alan
Reader
Alan

The senseless loss of life in Manchester as in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen etc is tragic. The reasons provided are equally tragic as complicity is the only logical conclusion. How did US authorities know the suspects identity within hours? How was columnist/lobby correspondent, Andre Walker able to acquire photo’s of the bombed arena within minutes even though he falsely claims they are faked? Again an ID is found within hours, how is that possible? How did the level of surveillance and security fail given Britain is acknowledged as the most scrutinised country in the world? These few questions will remain,… Read more »