What about the Auvergne? Is Russia engaging in strategic disinfo to avoid being drawn into trap?
Catte
According to an a analysis offered by Joaquin Flores on Fort Russ the recent bizarre events unfolding over Syria may have been an attempt, not simply by Israel, but also by France to draw Russia into a renewed political/diplomatic confrontation with NATO.
Flores says:
What the Russians claim is that Israeli craft using the Il-20 for cover ‘confused’ the SAA system and that the SAA system hit the Russian Il-20. We will explain that while this is possible, it is unlikely, and in fact the least likely of any realistic scenarios given the tremendous preparation and planning that goes into these events.
The original Russian announcement about the alleged firing of missiles by the French frigate Auvergne, was always curious. The fact the two events – the alleged missile firing and the disappearance of the Il-20 – were linked by timing in the Russian announcement is not the kind of wording to be used casually when dealing with a NATO member country. The Russians would need good reason for saying something this potentially inflammatory at such a time. It being a kind of code for “we know France just shot down our plane” is not implausible. Flores again:
It’s highly intelligent on the part of Russia, for many reasons, that they blame Israel for this, if the option is France. Russia refuses to countenance steps leading to any war when other means are clear & available….outright war is no answer whatever emerges ultimately. This was the thought process of Russian authorities, and the basis as well, of their disinfo campaign.
Flores argues that Russia blaming Israel was the last thing the neocons/neolibs expected. They anticipated instead that France would be accused, would be able to vociferously deny, and use indignation over the “false allegations” to create an excuse for further anti-Russian propaganda/theatre in the UN and create further distance and hostility between Russia and a significant NATO member country. He argues Russia had to think quickly in response and find a way of avoiding having to blame France. This indirect blaming of Israel was what they came up with, sidestepping the trap of going head to head with France and not making a direct claim of Israel involvement that could be refuted with physical evidence.
Between blaming France or Israel, the US expected Russia to blame France. Between blaming Syria or France, the US expected Russia to blame France. Between blaming Syria or Israel, the US expected Israel to be blamed.
They did not expect this hybrid of ‘somewhat’ blaming Israel for doing ‘tricky stuff’ in the air, the motives being hard to prove or qualify.
If Russia was to avoid an MH-17 situation in reverse, they had to think with agility. Russia has the physical evidence, the flight data, and the missile launch data. If they were going to blame France, which was mostly expected, it would have been a UNSC charade, a General Assembly charade, and a media charade with ‘Putin blaming France’ and Russia being accused of having possession of the evidence from which their case is made, and therefore the evidence being dodgy or even manufactured entirely.
The crash remains of the IL-20 are going to absolutely show that it was hit with a missile, any fragments etc. required to establish that, will show that’s an Aster missile, or similar, like the missiles used in the S-200’s. But they aren’t going to show that the impact is consistent with a small missile carried by Israeli planes, or by gun strafing from an attack plane.
This is why Russia could not [directly] blame Israel, yet they knew that Israel was involved in attacking Lattakia, and it appears that Russia is also calculating the blaming of Israel in order to do yet something else unexpected.
We recommend taking the time to read Flores very detailed article in full. While it may turn out not be the truth, or the whole truth, of the matter, it’s well argued and currently plausible.
And, of course, if France did shoot down the Russian plane, or even take part in action likely to cause loss of Russian life, then it’s clear the most insane elements in the pro-war neocon/neolib alliance currently have the initiative, and, as Flores, says, Putin’s caution in responding is well explained.
It’s early days, and no one should leap to conclusions,and – certainly – anyone who thinks Russia should have responded by shooting other planes out of the sky needs to pause and reflect.
The next few weeks will be interesting.
Joaquin Flores’ article can be read in full here.
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Facts check: Russia has about 8000 nuclear warheads, the Us and allies maybe roughly the same and third parties may 600 warheads. All in all about 16 500 warheads. Most of the are dialed in at about 500 Kiloton, and many at one Mega ton. Now that leaves us with about 8250 Mega tonnes of destructive power, at the ready. A one megaton in London and one in the north , say Birmingham, will utterly cripple Britain, even two 500 Kiloton would do it. Watch “Threads” , it is on Youtube, it is harsh. I was in the Army (Danish) during the cold war, we knew civilians would die like flies in the event of a war, we would maybe live a little longer and the succumb. With the proliferation and abundance of nuclear weapons, a conflict between nuclear powers can not be contained. It is ostrich tactics, it will… Read more »
Someone complained recently “where are the antisemitic posts when we need them?”. Always happy to oblige:
‘Dr NG Maroudas BTL Saker Vineyard on September 21, 2018 · at 1:49 am EST/EDT
Israel always hogs the spotlight but surely France and Britain are a far more serious issue. For the Auvergne and the RAF simultaneously to attack Syria without provocation or warning is an act of naked aggression. France and UK are the two principal Zio-Capitalist countries, where sit French Baron Rothschild and English Lord Rothschild, respectively. Unless these two countries are summoned promptly by the UN to stand before the bar of world opinion and be disciplined for disturbance of world peace, F & UK will be enboldened to summon their big dumb attack dog U$A, and yesterday’s little sneak attack will become tomorrow’s big resource war ad majorem gloriam Rothschildiensis.
The facts are: we know of the presence of two RAF Tornado’s from Akrotiri, in a ‘holding pattern’ (IFF transponders ‘on’ so as not to be mis-identified), above the IDF F-16s: ‘coincidentally’ at the same time as an unprovoked naked act of aggression and act of war on Syria …resulting in the death of 15 Russian service personnel (plus casualties on the ground). We now know there was a naval task force that moved into the waters around Latakia (NATO Maritime Group 2). This included a Royal Navy submarine, HMS Talent, equipped with 10 TLAMs (Tomahawk cruise missiles) [See Fort Russ News for details]. It is highly unlikely that Russia effectively shot down its own plane (the Il-20). Here, Flores’ follow up article is revealing. He confirms the Russia only fhad one Il-20, and its downing was to see how the integrated Russian/Syrian AD would “plug the gap”. https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/more-experts-confirm-that-france-took-down-il-20-identify-friend-foe-system-did-not-fail/ Whilst… Read more »
Dimona
Dimona? I don’t know what you are talking about?
Dimona doesn’t exist. Nor do the 5 Dolphin class submarines that Germany semi-gifted to assuage their WW2 guilt; nor do the Popeye missiles (you can’t make this shit up – Popeye!) that can carry the non-existent 200kt nuclear warheads that definitely do not come from Dimona!
Dimona was where Israel created its first nuclear bomb in the early 1960’s. It was of course secret -so secret the CIA (Dulles) tried to keep it from President Kennedy. Just as they feared he was opposed seeing it as a disastrous development for the ME. If the historians of the assisination are right his opposition to an Israeli nuke prompted Mossad and the Jewish Mafia, run by Meyer Lansky and his Dallas No,1 Jack Ruby, to contribute a team of snipers from Montreal to join the three other teams descending on Dallas in November 1963. (Dulles always over organised his wheezes).
I fully agree. But you left this out: The peaceful Israelis has alway shown the way in peaceful coexistence with all nations. And the rumors the armed South Africa with 5 nuclear weapons are fake news. They never exploded a nuclear weapon in the south pacific, it was somebody else. Israelis only kill savage Palaestnian savages, not protesters demanding a right to a decent life and civil liberties. Comparing Israel to the third Reich is a crime and should be punished with at least death! Israel is the largest contributor of aid to the UN, blieving in all peoples right to prosperity. Israel has never attacked any one, as peaceful as Switzerland or Sweden. Israel regard the racial brethren , the Semitic Arabs as their brothers, and kiss and hug them when they encounter them. No Jew can ever be a filthy ,lying dirty bastard, it is against their religion.… Read more »
Thanks vexarb, glad you’re happy to oblige, you’ve brightened up a dull day! I’m leaning towards the theory that the international courts and UN have become corrupted by the malign influence themselves, hence why we don’t have any condemnation of these events. Thats just my thoughts. I’m a self confessed deep thinker and its been helping for me to look at these events in simplistic terms. Why the hate towards Russia? Is it because Russia have the audacity to hold huge gas reserves? Where thee is gas there is oil, could it be that our Rothschild backed players are bitter that they do not hold enough control of these resources? Get rid of Putin and install a Yeltsin like compliant leader again? A little off topic I know, but just a thought. Keep up the great work by majority of all Off-G writers and commenters. May I thank you again… Read more »
“Get rid of Putin and install a Yeltsin like compliant leader again?..”
I think that it is important to recognise that most states are led by Yeltsins- May is a Yeltsin; Macron is a Yeltsin; Merkel and Trudeau are a pair of Yeltsins; Ave is a Yeltsin.
These people lack Boris Nikolayevich\s more colourful personal appetites and antics (altho’; Boris Johnson doesn’t) but they are just as easy for the US oligarchs to order around. And the proof lies in the suicidal sanctions regimes that the EU and the G7 maintain, at enormous cost to their own economies, because they are ordered to do so.
It goes without saying that most of the rest of the world is run by Yeltsins too. They are everywhere, but not in Russia or China, where they wait in the wings, following the NED’s advice and collecting their NED salaries.
If the premise of the article is true, it would make Russia’s response an even bigger sign of weakness than it is already widely perceived. It would be like a victim of domestic violence blaming the injuries on a fall down the stairs or hitting a lamp post. It doesn’t really matter what the public is told, if the real perpetrator knows it can get away with it without being called out, it will only increase its provocations to the next level..
We are debating domestic violence. We are debating a possible demise of the world as we know it.
There is a slight difference.
So, to whom ought Russia to report this violence?
And should it move into an abused nations shelter?
More on how the word gets around re truther media:
Marcus Wolf BTL Saker on September 20, 2018 · at 8:03 am EST/EDT
“Off-Guardian.org isn’t the Guardian! It’s a sort of anti-Guardian in fact. The Guardian would sadly never publish such an article.
If you don’t know OffG please check it out. It’s a great source of analysis on the Guardian’s sad decline.”
The Flores hypothesis stating that it was the French ship that downed IL-20 is well argued but obviously still a hypothesis. As it happens, Flores has in the process taken the heat off both Israel and Putin. After a difficult 24 hours Putin has gone -on so many forums- from weak-kneed Israeli puppet back to 3d chess master, having in this latest version brilliantly refused to take the NATO bait. And Israel’s role as primary baddie has been taken over by France. There are several problems with the Flores version of events, however. Does Macron look like the type of guy who would risk shooting down a large and very valuable Russian aircraft with a crew of 14 on board on its way back to base? Does Macron look like the type of guy who would risk being held responsible for instigating WWIII? No, he most certainly doesn’t. He’s a… Read more »
The question of whether the French frigate did fire missiles or not is unresolved. If there is evidence it’s not been shown. As for Macron his militaristic and imperialist tendencies have long been noted. For him personally Assad is a butcher and ‘must’ go. As in Libya French pressure on the US to take strong action in Syria has been very evident. The French armada patrolling the sea includes the Charles de Gauile the massive nuclear powered air craft carrier complete with cruise missiles and jet fighters. The idea Macron of all people would urge restraint is not credible.
The Charles de Gaulle carrier has been roaming around the seas since 1994 and seen how many Presidents come and go? There is a massive difference between urging restraint and being the perpetrator of an unbelievably provocative act on an opponent that could wipe out your entire country in half an hour. In Libya Obama led, in typical sneaky fashion, from the back and deputized France to take the lead. Vassal states do not push the hegemon around. I maintain this young and inexperienced President would never have dared carry out such an attack.
According to the interview in the Atlantic magazine by Obama (2/17) he and the Chiefs of Staff were against involvement in Libya. He said Clinton persuaded him partly by saying how Skorzy was ‘hysterical’ for an attack and Cameron was right behind him. Clinton agrees and has some interesting observations about the French insistence that Libya had to be bombed. She said she was unable to discover exactly why the French were so keen. Nuland and Power both agreed it was French pressure more than anything that persuaded them to advise Obama to go ahead. They reflected on French involvement in N Africa over many years and felt the French (and Italians) knew best. But Obama said the US wouldn’t take a leading role and the operation would have to be fronted by France and the UK. In the event the Europeans soon ran out of bombs and missiles and… Read more »
“… And how would France benefit from such reckless provocation of a formidable opponent? …” If the provocation was part of a script as Joaquin Flores suggests, then you need to consider what that script might be and what was the intended end goal. Was the script meant to follow on with Russia attacking the French frigate, the French then invoking Article 5 of the NATO treaty and the US-led NATO coalition now able to invade Syria with the excuse that a NATO member was attacked? Instead with Russia now putting the blame on Israel, that scenario of a NATO invasion has been put off again. The Israelis now have to send the Israeli Air Force commander to Moscow to explain what happened and come up with some feeble reassurance that a similar incident will not occur. And Syria and the Russian Ministry of Defence may be able to press… Read more »
I’m no military expert, so can any of you buffs confirm or deny my supposition that the Il-20 ‘Coot’ HQ (ELINT) was deliberately targeted for its electronic warfare capability? If NATO executed a joint airborne/seaborne assault on three locations, including Latakia …taking out the integrated Russian/Syrian ‘eye-in-the-sky’ makes perfect sense, especially if it was equipped with an EW capability? NATO’s previous attacks have been partially repelled, seemingly by Russian EW, or the TLAMs (Tomahawks) are shit, one of the two. Taking out the EW, or part of it, would give the assault ‘clear blue sky’. There’s the motive, which also represents a significant escalation on behalf of NATO. The Il-20 was on a recon mission to locate drones in Idlib, according to Sputnik/Rus MOD. These wouldn’t be the same drones that were reported as taking part in the attack on Latakia? Taking out the early warning of such an attack… Read more »
Russian primary radar knows the truth I expect. Russia/Putin wont shoot from the hip until they know the story. Israel is cap in hand in Moscow apologizing right now and trying to explain. Why?.. might be needed with 1,2 Russians in Israel.
whoops.. * thats 1.2 million
friendly fire incidents do happen, our own, UK forces, got clobbered by American A10s during the Iraq war
yes the IL 20 would be a very lucrative target to take out, however its value to NATO would be in analysis of its emissions from the various sensors so that counter measures can be created, perhaps NATO has enough intelligence now?
You can never have “enough” intelligence in war, or as my wartime naval officer grandfather used to say: “enough is too little, too much is enough”. Whoever shot it down, it is a high-value target just because of what it does. Liken it to a P3 Orion. It’s not just flying around
My info, from Airwars, I think, was that Russia only has one Il-20 in Syria. Sure, they can fly in another, but take it down and you’ve got a 24hr window …to launch a drone attack from the very area it was meant to cover?
I don’t know, just thinking out loud.
@Always Write: I said I’m no expert, I didn’t say I was an eeejit! 😀
An A-10 Warthog’s principal targeting device is a Redneck pilot getting eyeball on anything that moves …mainly tanks, but failing that, ambulances, allied troop carriers, etc
In a warzone: first rule of engagement …never get in front of the Yanks!
While I’m here, another thing has been bothering me: just how long can an Mach 7 F-16 stay in the radar shadow of an Il-20 ….about 0.25secs? Everything that has come out in forums about the larger radar cross section: I’m pretty sure military professional’s know this too, before firing?
The F-16 max speed is a little over Mach 2 at 40000 ft. Close to the ground it would be quite a bit less. And more important its stall speed appears from a quick google search to be 110kn which is more than an IL-20 but it is likely that the latter was flying much faster than stall speed. There are many situations, eg refuelling, where a fast jet sits close to a much slower large plane.
Thanks. I did my own ‘generic search engine’ search and found the F-16 can fly alongside a Cessna light aircraft, flaps down (stall speed 90kph) and escort them off restricted airspace. The chances of the F-16s, the FS Auvergne, and the Il-20 all becoming aligned to unleash a “tragic set of circumstances” still seem vanishingly thin to me. It all seems a bit coincidental and pre-planned to me. So, the IDF F-16s scream up the coast, fire missiles at targets in Latakia; veer inland, flaps down fly in the radar shadow of the IL-20; the Russian/Syrian joint operation air defences engage the F-16s (not their missiles, they’ve gone), knowing their IL-20 is there; fire SAMs (to shoot down the F-16s?); and the F-16s then scream off at Mach 2 (not sure where I got Mach 7 (hypersonic) from) leaving the Il-20 a sitting duck; because there is no manual overide… Read more »
I’d agree re preplanned. How long was the IL-20 in the air? And would the Israelis/French be aware of its flight path early enough to use its presence as cover?
From John Helmer: the IL-20 took off at 20:31, and was hit at 22:07 …so just over 1 1/2 hours. From previous comments, I believe the Il-20 had been flying the same pattern for months …so, plenty of time.
I don’t know how accurate the Russian map is, but its 45 miles from Tartus to Latakia (as the crow flies), and the Il-20 looks to have traveled about a third of that after contact with the IDF (IAF). That’s 15 miles after they were in each others radar shadow. Of course, it’s not a scale map, but the Il-20 would have to have been shot down synchronously with the contact to make the narrative work?
I doubt that they are worried about protecting their terrorists in Idlib. More likely they are worried about UK, French, US and Israeli special forces embedded with the terrorists. This has been typically the issue in previous cases.
what was interesting was how little this was reported, the BBC World channel like to says its the global leader in breaking news, but every hour, half hour i checked it had very little about this story, apart from RT there was a kind of news blank out, and now almost nothing……strang, very,very strange!!!!!
PM, if the British were firing missiles at Syria via the RAF at Akrotiri, within seconds of the French firing from their carrier in the Med, then I’m not surprised the BBC would prefer to remain rather quiet about a plain case of naked aggression by UK collusion with France to make a sneak attack on Syria — a country with which we are not at war and which never attacked us.
I’d suggest they were waiting for the response, which much like a damp fire work failed to go BANG!
I bet the Beeb has kept rather quiet about this as well; serlal numbers on the missile reported by Holland for downing flight MH17 prove it actually belongs to the regime in Kiev:
http://www.atimes.com/article/russia-reveals-the-mh17-smoking-gun/
yup, just like they did when the Russians presented that small Syrian boy who was allegedly the victim of the chemical weopons attack at the Hague in April, didn’t western media call this a disgusting stunt, or words to that effect
its not just the BBC though, it was almost all the channels i have access to including France 24, TRT World, Al Jazeera, DW news and Euro News English, only the Israel channal i24 had the il 20 shootdown story covered
It wasn’t that long ago that Israeli planes tricked the SAA into thinking they were US planes and attacked Syria from west of the Euphartes.
This is first time for an sudden and without warnings made big cruise missile attac against Syria and Russian forces. I was extremely dangerous situation, if Russia would have retaliate….
Thank you for this article!
(I heard, that here is could be more information and a timeline for the situation.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D99lEEUdojA)
Meanwhile, despite a sly hit by F UK Z in the air, the ground war against NATZO’s proxy army progresses apace.: Canthama BTL SyrPer: “As .. news from the Syrian desert, ISIS pocket between Homs and DeZ Province has shrunk considerably in the last 2 weeks due to the coordinated effort by Liwa al Quds and the SAA. They basically pushed ISIS left over terrorists to about 1/4 of the original pocket they held 2 weeks ago, finally dislodged from al Sarayim area, a long time stronghold due to its 1,000 ft hill. The preparation to the final push toward Doubayat gas field, the last oil/gas filed held by ISIS west of the Euphrates is on going. http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.885931&lon=39.600220&z=9&m=w&gz=0;390371704;345834750;5712890;2596377;4833984;700695;4064941;135664;576782;0;0;1558804 Differently from al Safa pocket, the Homs/DeZ had fewer terrorists, spread out in a larger area, al Safa continues to be tough due to the 1,000 terrorists still able to fight, but… Read more »
How the news goes round on altmedia. Bundy on SyrPer cites OffG cites Flores on..:
Igor Bundy
According to an analysis offered by Joaquin Flores on Fort Russ the recent bizarre events unfolding over Syria may have been an attempt, not simply by Israel, but also by France to draw Russia into a renewed political/diplomatic confrontation with NATO.
https://off-guardian.org/2018/09/19/is-russia-engaging-in-strategic-disinfo-to-avoid-being-drawn-into-trap/
It is clear that the Russian strategy is not to escalate tensions with the attack on Idlib being put on hold to thwart a White Helmets false-flag snuff-vid. This was clearly a planned provocation and must have been coordinated between Bibi and the FUKUS triumvirate. Russia has been busy working to establish rat lines out of Idlib into Turkey for the head-chopping moderates to avail themselves of in an attempt to prevent a conflagration of deceit. Joaquin is right with this, it appears Putin personally and the Russians have had to go to great lengths to play this “illegal” escalation down. What is seriously criminal is the potential flash points which exist in Syria being stoked by western actors who have no right being there! The silence of the western media is telling within all this – never focusing on the illegality of their countries actions in Syria. Preferring instead… Read more »
Unexpected article at Fort Russ. I read it completely. I must say that everything written seems to me extremely improbable. In my personal opinion, this is exactly what is called speculation. Speculation not in the sense that people deliberately try to distort information and fool the reader, but that a person tries to see what is not there. I’m following the theme of a downed plane. I must say that no one (at least for now) in the Russian expert community (these are serious experienced people, including former high-ranking military personnel) don’t even consider/discuss the option that France could have shot down the Russian aircraft. No one. Dear Off-Guardian, you wrote: “This indirect blaming of Israel was what they came up with, sidestepping the trap of going head to head with France and not making a direct claim of Israel involvement…” But… The Russian Ministry of Defense clearly stated: “Israeli… Read more »
Very thoughtful comment…..much appreciated. Although mysteries remain….what did the French frigate do….the coincidentally timing with illegal IDF attack…I have sometimes felt there are rogue elements in western military re Syria….especially Der ez Zer region….al Tanf……although France economically should not be overated the “dealings” over Mistral seem to suggest everything was being done to preserve the political value of Russian Franco relationships(despite Macron attempting to most undiplomatically humiliate Putin with claims of election interference at that press conference….Russia “using” France relationship to show it is not against some western liberal values where based on proven constitutional principles of integrity liberty fraternity equality….)… French Foreign Ministry over last 3 -4 years has definitely been denigrating in a most accusatory and confrontaional manner Russia’s efforts also supports my thinking they have got it in for Putin and would be underhandedly willing to be complicit in situations to create leverage against Putin…….although was tjete… Read more »
Did France or UK, have motive and opportunity?
Who runs France? Is Macron a tool of French deep state?
What does France have to gain by alienating Russia?
Piss off Merkel who depends on Russian gas?
In a nutshell: motive.
The US runs France. CIA organised a failed coup against De Gaulle in 1961 and then a successful one in 1968. Dominique Strauss-Kahn was perhaps the best candidate 10 years ago but would have been too ‘socialist’ for US liking so a sex scandal was concocted in New York that destroyed his chances. The compliant nonentity Hollande took his place and was an austerity poodle, even to the extent of cancelling the naval helicopter carrier order that Russia had already paid for. Macron is another yes man for the US.
Don’t forget Sarkozy, the worst of the lot.
You know perfectly well who runs France. The Zionazis do.
France complicated relation to NATO: https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy/defence-security/france-and-nato/
France’s simple relationship with Israel-total, groveling, obedience.
My feeling, for what it’s worth, is that this was – just another – conspiracy by Israel/France/US/UK, not to see Russia condemned at the UNSC and further marginalised, but focused on destroying a key asset in Russia’s electronic defence system – as suggested by Pepe Escobar. They cleverly coordinated the attack so that Syrian defences were tricked into shooting down their target. i don’t believe the targets of the “Israeli and French aerial attacks on Syrian State assets” (the actual quote on SBS TV news) were the focus of the operation, or of any significance; this was an attack aimed at Hmeimin, which will now be more exposed to a concerted cruise missile attack. This looks all too much like softening up Russian defences in preparation for such an attack, when the terrorist squads refuse to “remove their heavy weapons” from the demilitarised zone, and then the SAA launches a… Read more »
Nice theory but does not make sense give the facts. The US military made a very early public statement that it was Syrian AA which brought down the Russian plane. Why would the US do this if they expected Russia to blame France? The US would simply keep quiet until the Russians make their statement, hopefully blaming France, otherwise they’d be supporting the Russians.
The author of the original article (Flores) suggests this was part of the plan – Russia would blame France, NATO would repudiate the accusation and use this allegedly false accusation as a platform for more political attacks on Russia. So the US pre-empting by saying it was Syria actually fits very well with Flores’s theory.
Yes-the USA NEVER lies, does it.
Sorry but Russia should have sunk the French vessel!
That would be WW3. We would all be dead in days. It’s a good job the Russian MoD and govt have a better grip and a better sense of proportion than some of the armchair warriors airing their views all over the net.
Like Stanislav Petrov.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/cold-war/refused-launch-nuclear-missiles.html
Some have cooler heads.
If Russia cannot defend itself without provoking WW3 then it had better surrender, surrender to the allegedly all-powerful zionist 5th column, that Saker drones on about. Do you really think the west is ready to commit global suicide by a war on Russia. It’s a bluff. Appeasement never works as Churchill said of Chamberlain in 1938. ‘You had a choice between war and dishonour, you chose dishonour and you will get war.’
This is an existential issue for the AZ-empire as well as Russia and China. Is Russia going to be defeated, dismembered and the AZ empire dominant on the basis of a western bluff.
(1) Churchill? Ouch! Bad example. Not only was he something of a career war criminal, but the accepted viewpoint of WW2 as “the just war” has been widely questioned in recent times (and not just by sad men on white supremacist websites, caps-lock typing extracts from Mein Kampf while wearing a Waffen-SS battle helmet). If all wars are bankers’ wars, maybe it’s time to realise 1939-45 may not have been the shining exception to that rule we’ve all believed it was, and that all those millions died, not defeating Nazism (which wasn’t so much defeated anyway as displaced), but enriching the wealthy. We might reflect that being conned into thinking of “appeasement” as the ultimate dirty word is not very sophisticated of us in these complex nuclear times. (2)Let’s recall that Russia has been and is defending itself and its interests quite successfully while avoiding WW3. But can we agree… Read more »
Yup …but west wants to see Russia neutralised….a laughing stock…povertised…ridiculed…thrown out of so called democratic organisations…subject to control by removal of veto system at UN….the bogeyman using undeclared chemicals on innocent citizens(including one of its own) and foreign assassinations….permanently under sanctions …expelled from PACE and G7…..so a Russian plane shot down by a Russian out of date missile system by Syrians sure goes along with that plan of compleye subjugation.
But Russian fleet has the capability -?-could at least have shot down the French missiles cos they could have gone anywhere…..that would have been a strong statement to support Syrian Sovreignty and produce more evidence of Nato illegal actions…..or did they know or get informed…and is just sitting there as an empty gesture implying its ok…missiles were not aimed at us but at Syria on an excuse to attack Iran so that is alright as we kept out of the way before. Methinks there is going to be a lot of MoD internal meetings now to really sort out what is going on or there are gonna be a lot of angry frustrated personnel as the navy and army have a huge sense of well earned and deserved integrity and pride supported by Russian peoples….and this should not be put at risk by false associations of political expediency with treacherous… Read more »
The MoD is probably working out whether another opportunity to widen the war will present itself soon or will they have to stand down the forces they had ready for the guaranteed chemical weapon shout? Putin slips away again. Turkey has one month to clear the DMZ of radicals. Erdoghan can’t and won’t so the next opportunity will be mid October. I imagine Putin will play it slowly-slowly picking off areas and maybe radical groups one by one. The Chinese look to be the best target as nobody likes them not even the other Jihadis and they’ve ended up in the South of Idlip. Putin is still winning but knows the West is getting desperate and he (thankfully!) is avoiding the big war he can’t win.
The Russians are probably aware of all the circumstances of this incident, that is why Putin was able to speak before an actual inquiry, but to my mind it matters little who was to blame since all the actors, Israel, France and other NATO states want to regime change Syria and vilify Russia. I have never suggested sinking NATO ships or giving NATO an excuse for a wider war, but what is it those regime changers fear the most, Syria [or Iran/Hezbollah] being able to defend themselves. The US scrapped the Iran agreement not because of the nuclear issue but because of Iran’s ability to build their own conventional weapons systems, long range ‘accurate’ rockets and the Bavar 373 anti aircraft system [an improvement on the Russian supplied S-300] Keeping Israels neighbors without the means to defend themselves is the name of the game, how else can Israel threaten and… Read more »
And as Hezbollah shewed in 2000 and 2006, the Zionazis are not much good at fighting trained, determined, men (or women) anymore. ‘Defeating’ Gazan children or terrorising old people at check-points in the West Bank internment camp is more their go these days.
If you read the Fort Russ report, you will understand that the RF has what remains of the IL-20: they have the evidence, they know who shot their plane out of the sky, which gives them the option of telling any lie they please and there is f***k all FUKUS can do about it!
I think the big question is whether there really was a missile launch from the French ship Auvergne. If there was and perhaps the Israeli and French attacks were co-ordinated, this would, of course be something very grave.
However, is it really clear that there were missile launches from the French ship Auvergne? It seems the Israeli planes were very close to that ship when they attacked objects in Syria, and then, a launch detector might give a false alert about a missile launch from the ship.
The Zionazis fully control France, one of the more markedly servile slave states of the West. What Israel wants, Macron the marionette, delivers.
“I think the big question is whether there really was a missile launch from the French ship Auvergne.”
This is a very good question.
Btw, i didn’t heard the Russian Defense Ministry stated this. To this moment, i saw two official videos – short message from the Russian MoD’s spokesman (he said that Auvergne was just around), and a statement from Sergei Shoigu. In both cases there was not a single word about “France launching missiles”.
But this is present in the media. Hmm…
RT reported it as originating from the MoD, is that an error?
Undoubtedly Putins first call would have been to Trump to confirm he hadn’t been briefed. That this was an impromptu false flag and that Russia was expected to retaliate against the French ship. Thus forcing Trump into interweening.
The warmongers are getting twitchy are they going to step it up? A battallion of isis to attack Russia directly?
The donkeys just can’t admit defeat. Pathetic.
“The donkeys just can’t admit defeat…”
Right on the effin money; to think a lot of the current bs stems from the simple fact that someone with the initials Hillary Clinton simply can’t admit their own intended palooka wound up defeating them is frightening, to say the least.
Excellent comment.
Ah well time to ask about the relationship between Macron and his special armed friend (where is he from?) he who likes to dress up as a policeman and beat up people… revenge is going to be cold and an early end of the dauphin and would-be new sun king’s plans.
I wonder how Merkel is going to react too – she also has a few scores to settle after the attacks she survived.
That seems to me to be stretching it a bit. The reports stating that the French ship was detected by missile launch detecting technologies in no way detracts from the efficacy of the official explanation. Looking at the published maps and flightpaths it is easy to see that the Israeli warplanes came in low and seaward of the Russian plane and fired their missiles in such a way that land based radar would have a hard job seperating targets from friend. The only real question is was this a descision of clever Israeli pilots taking advantage of an obvious tactical opportunity or something planned higher up to humiliate the Russians? It seems to me Netenyahu probably claimed the former and Putin accepted the apology with caveats. A second fatal incident from Israel would surely be impossible to excuse. As for the French ship, is it not more likely that it… Read more »
At aircraft targets with altitudes below 3km, the range of Aster 30 is 50km. The ‘Auvergne’ would have not engaged an aerial target 27 km off the Syrian coast. (Off Banias, where AIS shows the location of a Russian ship, part of the SAR response).
There is a denial:
But the French military denied any involvement, with spokesman Colonel Patrik Steiger telling AFP the frigate Auvergne “did not fire anything last night”.
https://www.afp.com/en/news/205/syria-shoots-down-russian-plane-during-israeli-air-strike-doc-19742e5
Elsewhere, it was formulated as if he said that the frigate Auvergne only had nothing to do with shooting the Russian airplane, but it seems they deny the missile launch.
France’s envoy to the United States called the message about the missile launch from Auvergne “fake news”: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-france/russian-fake-news-machine-going-mad-says-french-envoy-to-u-s-idUSKCN1LY2C4
You are quite right about how the illegality of the US coalition in Syria being ignored. It’s an outrage.
Whose job is it to enforce international law.
Flores’ article clarifies why the French are the most likely culprits in shooting the Il20 down.
Notice how the official statements by MFA RT and Sputnik meticulously avoid blaming France or making direct and specific accusations of anything!
The UN is a hopeless organisation corrupted by its funding. In the Yemen they managed to get the Houthis on a list of war criminals but Saudi Arabia was on the list of humanitarian helpers. A billion dollars from His Highness was gratefully received. In Syria the UN man is an elderly very aristocratic and paternalistic Italian ex-diplomat who goes out of his way to stir up trouble rather than look for solutions, such as when he waded in saying he would set up save exit routes for civilians in Idlip, ignoring Syrian and Russian routes out while he admitted ‘his’ scheme’ needed friendly jihadis to ‘give way’.
Aren’t we a bit past the stage of suggesting a few lies in the upper echelons is “stretching it a bit”? I have no way of knowing if this narrative is correct, wholly or in part, but NO, it’s not stretching it a bit!
Very interesting. Thanks.
It does show that Putin is no fool and that no-one can put one over him.
Perhaps all this is what Putin and Netanyahu actually talked about on the phone yesterday and not so much about regrets and condolences as reported in this article:
https://www.financialexpress.com/world-news/israeli-pm-benjamin-netanyahu-dials-vladimir-putin-express-regrets-over-russian-aircrew-death-in-syria/1318479/
Very thought provoking, thanks. The really chilling bit is that the lunatics are in charge in Washington, Paris and London if the French vessel did fire missiles. If Russia had retiliated wouldnt NATO have met pretty soon and decided on a response? In the ‘light’ of the smokescreens of dis-information and say the fatalities on the Auvergne were high, wouldn’t that response be war? They were all ready prepared for the chemical attack response; being on the ground in force the minute hostilities break out, fully armed and fuelled is a tempting advantage.