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Counterpunch Shadowboxes and Loses

Edward Curtin

Image source here

In a fair boxing match, opponents enter the ring with similarly padded gloves and battle under the bright lights for the world to see. There are, of course, cases where one fighter cheats, as in the infamous case in 1983 when Luis Resto wore weakly padded gloves and hand wraps hardened with plaster to make them rock solid. His opponent, Billy Collins, an up-and-coming boxer from Tennessee with a 14-0 record, was permanently and very seriously injured in the fight at Madison Square Garden. His eyes were battered shut and his vision damaged. He never fought again and died depressed the following year at age twenty-two.

In the fight for truth in the public arena, similar subterfuges occur.

To battle honestly in the open forum, to argue to and fro squarely, is often prevented in advance by eliminating an opponent’s voice from the debate. This is the typical method used by the corporate mass media that stack the deck with sycophants and refuse dissidents a place to voice their ideas.

Then there is the masquerade of fighting an opponent who is really a collaborator and benefactor, whose punches one counters in a game of shadow boxing meant to convince the audience that the fight is real and you are on their side. Some alternative media use this technique because they are gatekeepers for the power elite.

Sometimes this ruse is so blatant that the fix becomes transparent because the smart-asses who play this game screw up, yet they still expect their real opponents to shut up and walk away because their fixer’s mantra is “Never apologize, never explain.” It has always been the code of the rich and powerful.

Some are brawlers, however, and fight back against this bullshit.

The well-known leftist website Counterpunch is an example of the “never apologize, never explain” school. A number of writers and journalists who have published many pieces at Counterpunch have been banned from the site in recent years without an explanation, Andre Vltchek and C.J. Hopkins being two who crossed an invisible boundary the Shadow had drawn and were never again published by Counterpunch. Others, smelling an odd odor, have walked away. The numbers are growing.

I’ve recently seen Counterpunch shadowbox and the Shadow won.

On January 29, 2019, I published an article highly critical of the CIA (The CIA Then and Now: Old Wine in New Bottles) that was posted at Global Research the same day. Lew Rockwell picked it up the next day. The Greanville Post and Dissident Voice posted it on the 30th. Then The Unz Review published it on January 31, 2019. Five ideologically diverse websites that saw value in a harsh and complicated critique of the spy agency. Other sites would also publish it in the following days, including Off-Guardian. After the piece appeared, I received an email from the editor of Counterpunch, Jeffrey St Clair, telling me that he too was going to publish this article on Friday, February 1, for Counterpunch’s weekend edition.

I had written a few dozen pieces that Counterpunch had published and had a very cordial relationship with St Clair. In fact, when I was in Rome in 2018, he had asked me to place a stone for him on Keats’ and Shelley’s graves when I visited the cemetery where they were buried. I did that, and my wife took photos that I sent to him. All was copacetic. Buddies. High fives!

On February 1, 2019, shortly after midnight Eastern time (12:02 AM), Counterpunch published my piece for their weekend edition where articles remain for three days. When I awoke at 4 A.M., I saw it. Then at 8 A. M., when I arrived at the college where I teach, I again saw it. At 11 A.M., when I had finished teaching a few classes, I looked again and it had disappeared. Transitive verb: Counterpunch had disappeared it. Eliminated it. Scratched it. Excised it.

All the other numerous articles remained. Only mine was gone. At first I thought it was a mistake. But as the day wore on I wondered. So I emailed St Clair and asked my buddie what had happened. As compatriots don’t do, he did not reply. But I assumed he was busy, as I am, and gets many emails. So I waited. When I emailed him again, there was no reply. A third very cordial email three days later went unanswered.

Unlike Vladimir and Estragon in Waiting for Godot, I am no longer waiting. No reply is coming, and St Clair isn’t Godot, or on second thought he may be, a chimerical leftist gatekeeper enticing Counterpunch’s followers to wait forever for a revelation that isn’t coming. Like his mentor and the founder of Counterpunch, Alexander Cockburn, who was so fond of excoriating as “idiots” and “conspiracy nuts” anyone questioning the JFK assassination or the attacks of September 11, 2001 – two fundamental issues that only believers in official government conspiracy theories such as Cockburn could dismiss – St Clair seems similarly dismissive of explaining why a writer’s critique of the CIA would deserve to be eliminated from their front page after being published. As if only an idiot would want to know.

However, any reasonable person would ask: Why would he not respond? St Clair, the editor-in-chief, published the piece and then disappeared it after 10-11 hours? This is highly unusual, to put it mildly. Unprecedented for the so-called left-wing alternative media. It is the kind of thing when done by the mainstream corporate media would be denounced and exposed as censorship. Not publishing an article is a publication’s prerogative, of course, but what could cause one to eliminate an article highly critical of the CIA after people had ten or so hours to read it, and since the author and editor had a very cordial relationship up to that point and the editor had days to read it carefully?

Having eliminated the piece from their front page weekend edition where it could have been viewed by readers for four days while that page was available, they subsequently dumped it into their archives where the only reader who would later see it would be one who knew about it and went looking for it by title or author’s name. Very few would have reason to do that, of course, though readers of this article may be among the few. Censors often have a bag of tricks that allow for plausible denial after the fact.

One doesn’t have to be Sherlock Holmes to realize that someone objected to the piece. But who could that be? If it were St Clair’s managing editor, Joshua Frank, twenty years his junior (the two run the operation), then St Clair could have explained to me why, since we were on good terms. I wouldn’t have liked it and argued my points, but at least we could have cordially agreed to disagree. But the Frank possibility makes no sense, for a managing editor would be intimately involved in the publishing process that was completed the previous day in time for the very early Friday A.M. postings. And in any case, St Clair is in charge.

Clearly an outside reader objected. The question is: Who is that reader who could exert such control over a publication that promotes itself as one that “Tells the Facts, Names the Names”? A publication that is considered radically leftist and in opposition to the ruling elites.

Okay, Counterpunch, would you name the name of the shadowy one who won this fight?

Edward Curtin teaches sociology at Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. His writing on varied topics has appeared widely over many years. He writes as a public intellectual for the general public, not as a specialist for a narrow readership. He believes a non-committal sociology is an impossibility and therefore sees all his work as an effort to enhance human freedom through understanding. His website is edwardcurtin.com

Filed under: latest, media watch

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Edward Curtin teaches sociology at Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. His writing on varied topics has appeared widely over many years. He writes as a public intellectual for the general public, not as a specialist for a narrow readership. He believes a non-committal sociology is an impossibility and therefore sees all his work as an effort to enhance human freedom through understanding. His website is edwardcurtin.com

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Deschutes
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Deschutes

CounterPunch has sucked for at least the last 3 or so years. I get the impression Joshua Frank is the problem. He is rather intolerant of contributors who don’t share his opinions. If you aren’t a Russiaphobe like Frank is, for example–then you are not welcome at CounterPunch. He had an extremely ugly meltdown with CJ Hopkins awhile back, that was all published on Unz.com. While I used to always read the CounterPunch weekend edition, I have blown them off for the past year or so because they have driven away all the writers I used to like at their… Read more »

antiwar7
Reader

You nailed it. Both CounterPunch and the Intercept have a few good articles, but have acted quite fishy over the last few years, causing me to barely ever check them out anymore (when they used to be in my daily rotation). Two observations:

1) They increasingly suck.
2) In a suspicious way.

rosemerry
Reader
rosemerry

When I saw a comment by StClair comparing Putin to Trump as being “irrational impulsive and petulant” I was completely stunned, as i cannot think of three less suitable words to describe Putin. I have no confidence in his judgment on Russia.

samivesusu
Reader
samivesusu

From Counterpunch to Kosher Punch… just another Guardian of Judea..pathetic yet symptomatic…

barovsky
Reader

Why has CounterPunch spiked Andre Vltchek’s ‘Lies of the Empire’?
by Ramin Mazaheri

https://countercurrents.org/2019/03/02/why-has-counterpunch-spiked-andre-vltcheks-lies-of-the-empire/

Stefan
Reader
Stefan

The problem with Counterpunch is that they only have Remainiacs writing for them about the EU now it seems like, right wingers like John Wight and Alexander Cockburn, right wingers who think they are on the left, but of course they are not as EU-lovers. Now they got their will it seems like, another election, like always with EU.
Counterpunch is all right, no need to write it off totally. Even The Guardian has some decent stuff once in a while.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

Could I suggest to the administrators, that the debate here between myself and “crank”, “mark”, “barovsky”, and others, on “anti-semitism” and related subjects, be extracted, and posted as an independent article? I’ve provided some extensive references, which I think merit consideration, even by those who strongly disagree with them.

Israel Shamir
Reader

I’ve been asked whether I consider Zionism being intrinsically anti-Semitic.
Well, next step, you’ll call gefilte fish – antisemitic))
Is Islamism anti-Muslim? Were Ustasha anti-Catholic? Was Shin Fein anti-Irish? Was NSDAP anti-German?
I think it is too paradoxical!
And I am very grateful for references to my writing!

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

QED, I think.

Thanks for your important work.

louisproyect
Reader

Interesting how things here have veered off into an UNZ Review type comment thread about the Jews, with Milosevic offering up the standard UNZ Review “revisionism” on death camps. You don’t see this kind of stuff on blogs that are outside the conspiracist bubble. This 9/11 inside job, Faurisson, Jews control the world sort of thing is just the kind of flower that grows from the conspiracist soil. David Icke and the late Lyndon Larouche mined this vein to the hilt. Leon Trotsky had a good take on the subculture that pervades UNZ Review and the mindset of people like… Read more »

Deschutes
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Deschutes

You are always safely within the mainstream reality bubble of what is ‘safe’ to talk about. And you smugly look down your nose at those who would question mainstream narratives about 9-11, Jewish influence in politics, and the Holocaust? You know who you remind me of? That corporate talkshow windbag Bill Maher, only he’s a bit more edgy than you. Anybody who actually believes the official 9-11 narrative of a bunch of Saudis pulling that off needs their head examined. The official 9-11 narrative is so full of holes and glaring omissions as to be a farcical conspiracy theory in… Read more »

antiwar7
Reader

Good attempt at changing the subject!

milosevic
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milosevic

Here’s some opinions of Leon Trotsky that you won’t ever see quoted by the “left-wing” 9/11 Deniers: As one of the main causes for the victory of fascism, the luckless leaders refer – in secret, to be sure – to the “genius” of Hitler, who foresaw everything and neglected nothing. It would be fruitless now to submit the fascist policy to a retrospective criticism. One need only remember that Hitler, during the summer of last year, allowed the high peak of the fascist tide to escape him. But even the gross loss of rhythm – a colossal mistake – did… Read more »

milosevic
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milosevic

barovsky
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Milosovic, your comment: “we need to consider the idea that a large part of what has traditionally been thought of as ‘left-wing’ politics, since approximately 1917, is actually a sophisticated camouflage operation, intended to disguise the activities of a nasty ethnic supremacist cult, left over from the European Middle Ages.” Reinforces my view that people like Tariq ‘Assad has to go’ Ali, fit very neatly into this view, namely that what passes for a left in the imperialist world, is in fact very much a part of the imperialist world view of the rest of the planet, a ‘left’ that… Read more »

milosevic
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milosevic

Milosevic offering up the standard UNZ Review “revisionism” on death camps The only thing I said about the subject is that the “six million” Official Story is without factual basis, which certainly doesn’t imply that a lot of people didn’t die, of various causes. If you are acquainted with any serious evidence to support that number, you might reference it, but of course you won’t, because there isn’t any. So all you’ve got is the standard slurs and insults. (even Raul Hilberg suggests the real number is closer to five million. Is he a “revisionist”, or a “neo-nazi”?) http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/03-tgwfoc.pdf Meanwhile,… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

Even the crimes of the Nazis fade into seeming insignificance, in relation to the Jewish genocide committed by the Roman Empire, as recounted in the Babylonian Talmud: There were four hundred synagogues in the city of Bethar, and in every one were four hundred teachers of children, and each one had under him four hundred pupils, and when the enemy entered there they pierced them with their staves, and when the enemy prevailed and captured them, they wrapped them in their scrolls and burnt them with fire. Babylonian Talmud — Tractate Gittin, Folio 58a For those counting, (400 * 400… Read more »

crank
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crank

Just a couple of years back Louis, I might have agreed with you with regard to Jewish power. (9/11 has been a litmus test for credibility for me for at least a decade, so that you seem to still believe the official 9/11 story, in effect bars you from any serious consideration.) But the facts, in the end, speak for themselves. The opponents of the arguments put forward by Unz, Shamir, Atzmon and the many documented (mainly Jewish) opinions in the volumous linked material in this thread, only have smear by association, and accusations of racism as a response. This… Read more »

crank
Reader
crank

Personally, I would rather see OffG re-publish something by Israel Shamir. I doubt very much that they will. As you wrote, there is a lot that is made sense of by considering this aspect of history, one that it’s basically forbidden to talk about. One bit of the story that is not on your condensed list and which got me interested in this area was the Piper theory about the Kennedy killings. It ties up the contradictions. Similarly, I rejected any serious consideration of the ‘cult’ connection to 9/11 for many years, long after I had been fully persuaded that… Read more »

Mikalina
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Mikalina

Articles are ‘must reads’. Just spent most of afternoon reading them – thanks for links.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

“crank”: Thank you for all the links. Educative. It takes some intellectual integrity to think clearly and speak truthfully in hysterical times like these. So I for one appreciate the honesty. As I said here previously, we need to consider the idea that a large part of what has traditionally been thought of as “left-wing” politics, since approximately 1917, is actually a sophisticated camouflage operation, intended to disguise the activities of a nasty ethnic supremacist cult, left over from the European Middle Ages. As Israel Shamir says, when this cult lost its elite economic niche in the general collapse of… Read more »

barovsky
Reader

Occam’s Razor

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

Since you say you know Israel Shamir personally, why not discuss it with him?

barovsky
Reader

Milosovic, I think I already told you I’d email him and I did but I still await a response from him.

Israel Shamir
Reader

I never got it, sorry! (unless by other name?)

Israel Shamir
Reader

Sorry again, indeed I found the email, and here is my reply. I’ve been asked whether I consider Zionism being intrinsically anti-Semitic. Well, next step, you’ll call gefilte fish – antisemitic)) Is Islamism anti-Muslim? Were Ustasha anti-Catholic? Was Shin Fein anti-Irish? Was NSDAP anti-German? I think it is too paradoxical! Here is a longer take: The Jewish law has a sensible rule: “Minhag Israel din hu”, meaning ‘Israel (that is Jewish umma) acts righteously”, the way Jews act is the way of Jewish law. Provided that majority of Jews accept Zionism, it is not against them. The way out of… Read more »

Joerg
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Joerg

@Eric Blair (Feb, 23, 2019) Edward Curtin put forward his case being exclusively factual and using only moderate expressions. While Your comment, Eric Blair, is nothing but a chain of not ending insults and disparages. Here some of Your insults, Eric Blair: “Curtain is being paranoid. ” “Curtain …deliberately manufactured controversy in order to slam Counterpunch ” “Curtain … only makes himself look paranoid and unhinged” “Curtain or other negative bandwagon jumpers..” “Curtain… lesser idiots” “makes you an ego-driven fool in your own right” “My advice to Edward Curtain: …get that paranoia in check.” “wingnut ranter with a chip on… Read more »

Eric Blair
Reader

Curtain is being paranoid. Frank and St. Clair responded to his accusations HERE. Counterpunch has done some stupid stuff, like stop publishing certain writers (Andre Vltchek, Diana Johnstone, Caitlin Johnstone and CJ Hopkins) because of ideological and style differences while continuing to publish that caustic fool Louis Proyect and other low quality contributors. For this they deserve, and have received, substantial criticism. But Curtain who, for whatever reason, deliberately manufactured controversy in order to slam Counterpunch only makes himself look paranoid and unhinged, thereby damaging his own credibility. It’s almost as embarrassing to behold as Eric Zuesse’s ridiculous “take down”… Read more »

Threeedawgs
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Threeedawgs

You’re a fucking, boring, pretentious, know-nothing, presumptuous, self-appointed mind-reading, shallow punk.

Joshua Frank
Reader

Eric, every writer you mentioned, aside from Andre (who we decided to stop publishing for a number of reasons) left on their own accord. Caitlin Johnstone never wrote for us.

Robert Montgomery
Reader
Robert Montgomery

What are those “number of reasons and I think Eric was talking about Diana Johnstone.

Israel Shamir
Reader

I do not remember leaving you on my own accord. But I do remember being slandered by Project.

Willem
Reader
Willem

They say: ‘only a certain number of articles can fit into our jam-packed Weekend Edition lineup.’ And that Curtain’s article fell off.

How often does that happen at counterpunch? The editors don’t show other examples. I never saw articles fell of when I was still looking at counterpunch for interesting articles.

Think it is a weird excuse. It could be true, but how likely is it that articles fall of?

Willem
Reader
Willem

What is also weird is that the counterpunch editors demand an apology from Curtin. Apology for what? Prior to writing the article above, Curtin asked the editor why his article dissappeared from counterpunch. As he received no reply, Curtin decided to sort things out for himself. Should he apologize for sorting things out for himself and making his thoughts known in the open?

At best, all could be a misunderstanding. But since the editors demand an apology from Curtin for speaking out his own mind, I don’t believe this is all a misunderstanding.

Lochearn
Reader
Lochearn

Good bye, Counterpunch. You fired your best writers and ended up as Guardian Lite. You were all over the place on Ukraine and Syria. Your editor’s ego has grown so pathetically large that he lists all the music he is currently listenting to, as if we give a damn. Thanks for the article link Edward and all the literature you recommend. Thanks too to C.J. Hopkins for his continuously brilliant writing.

louisproyect
Reader

All over the place on Ukraine and Syria? Are you out of your mind? For every one I wrote, there were dozens of the sort that appear here. Including from Patrick Cockburn, Robert Fisk, Jonathan Cooke, Seymour Hersh, John Wight, et al. You can’t stand it that for every 20 film reviews I write, there is one dealing with Syria or Ukraine. Is the “axis of resistance” so flaccid that it cannot stand a single article debunking it? I guess so.

King Kong
Reader
King Kong

It is complete hogwash to object to be published at Unz , just because there are indeed a few loonies there. I do believe that Unz has made it a policy to publish almost anything that is controversial…… And is that not the idea of a free and open press. The main thing is to get the message out, no matter how, if Volkischer Beobacheter acceps your article, fine. Journos and blogger cant be to critical, then they play the “Deep States” own game and on their rules. Idiotic. There are many very sensible readers at Unz, dont be mistaken… Read more »

CJ Hopkins
Reader
CJ Hopkins

No idea whether it has anything to do with the “non-removal removal” of Ed Curtin’s piece, but, as one can see by Louis Proyect’s comments, the CounterPunch boys have a bit of an obsession with The Unz Review, which is odd, given that CounterPunch has accepted large amounts of money from Unz. Here’s an addendum to my September 2018 essay (also published here at OffGuardian): https://consentfactory.org/2018/09/29/how-to-maliciously-smear-your-critics-and-not-get-away-with-it/ “In an amusing twist to the events recounted above, it turns out the CounterPunch Red-Brown hunters who are so fond of smearing writers like myself as “far-right shills” and “anti-Semites” based on the fact… Read more »

Dimly Glimpsed
Reader
Dimly Glimpsed

Shunning and shaming is the coward’s way out. Censorship convinces no one, but does harden opposition. Such tactics are the veneer of a weak argument. In a society which truly values free speech, the proper response to a writer with whom you disagree is to respond with an argument, not censorship. As to Counterpunch, even if St. Claire and Frank were to truly believe that Russia delivered the presidency to Trump, why fire their own writers who dare to disagree on that point? Why the hatchet job on Caitlin Johnstone? When did Counterpunch become enforcers for the neocon wing of… Read more »

IntergenerationalTrauma
Reader
IntergenerationalTrauma

C.J. Hopkins – Thank you, thank you, thank you! I am literally laughing out loud at those revelations. Absolutely freaking amazing! And as icing on the cake we get – Louis “regime change” Proyect – visiting us here at OffG to bring us to Jesus with his deep insights regarding why – if the CP boys don’t like “where” one’s work is republished – well, they are simply morally obliged to disappear you! Even a visit from CP editor Joshua Frank! Geeze, I remember contacting Joshua when CounterPoof published an article that openly attacked anyone on the left who dared… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

a whole new audience on board that now enjoys reading CounterPoof as soon as the Rachel Maddow “RussiaMania” episode of the day finishes

barovsky
Reader

But it’s still a shame that so much energy is being diverted into this debate, about what exactly? That CP is liberal-left, but hasn’t it always been liberal-leftish? It’s published some good stuff and bad and maybe it still does I wouldn’t know, I’ve tried for ages to get an email sub and never arrives, so I gave up. And now my old pal Lou from my NY Marxist School days back in the 80s, has popped up, one big unhappy family that fights all the time. Meanwhile… the world is going to hell! But isn’t this left in the… Read more »

Dimly Glimpsed
Reader
Dimly Glimpsed

An itch that demands to be scratched.

IntergenerationalTrauma
Reader
IntergenerationalTrauma

barovsky – Removing anti-imperialist voices like Diana Johnstone, Andre Vltchek, C.J. Hopkins, and now Ed Curtain hardly equates to a “debate” of any sort I’m familiar with. This is censorship plain and simple. We in the left roundly condemn such censorship by MSM. Why would you suggest doing so when censorship occurs within so called “progressive media” somehow is instead – “energy being wasted?”

Joshua Frank
Reader

Hey CJ, we don’t take $ from Unz anymore. Haven’t in a number of years and don’t plan to in the future. Yes, this is largely due to his hard-right-Holocaust-white-nationalist turn. Cheers.

louisproyect
Reader

A lot has changed with CounterPunch since 2015. I am not privy to all of the editorial deliberations but there a number of people like Le Pen fan Diana Johnstone have been shown the door. My guess is that the obvious bid by the Kremlin to boost fascist movements in Europe such as Le Pen’s National Front became too obvious, like the 800-pound gorilla. In any case, people like Curtin and Hopkins are welcome to UNZ Review since they are not bothered by their articles appear next to ones arguing that the Nazis did not exterminate Jews, that Emmett Till… Read more »

Robert Montgomery
Reader
Robert Montgomery

SO you dismiss Johnstone as a “Le Pen fan” along the really childish line of yeah so there. And you are a serious writer?!

Willem
Reader
Willem

I agree that there are crazies at UNZ, but they are openly crazy and you can disagree with the crazies at UNZ. At counterpunch Patrick Cockburn supported Obama’s and later Trump’s red line (Assad gassing his own people). That is a lot worse than crazy as that debunked lie that killed 1000s of people. Disagreeing with his position at counterpunch is difficult as it is only possible through Facebook. https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/04/12/how-can-we-know-if-a-chemical-weapons-attack-took-place-in-syria/ Personally, I would not want to be associated with Cockburn for the reason that Cockburn openly supported regime change in Syria. But publishing at Unz is much worse than on… Read more »

crank
Reader
crank

the obvious bid by the Kremlin to boost fascist movements in Europe
Oh, I see where you are coming form now.
La la land.

noseBag
Reader
noseBag

“the obvious bid by the Kremlin to boost fascist movements in Europe such as Le Pen’s National Front became too obvious” – seemingly I’ve missed the elephant in the room – please elucidate.

mark
Reader
mark

“Tommy Robinson” and the EDL were getting £10,000 a month in Zionist money.
Wilders and his outfit are in receipt of similar largesse.
They are constantly shilling for Israel.
This is a general pattern.
Most of these neo Nazi outfits are Zionist Fronts, stirring up trouble with moslems to serve Zionist interests.
They even tried to take over the BNP at one stage.

louisproyect
Reader

I am not a CounterPunch editor but if I were, I’d have told Curtin not to crosspost to UNZ Review that is nothing but a neo-Nazi website with some left cover. Here’s an excerpt from a typical article, Linh Dinh’s “Heart of Darkness Germany”: If not for Jewish power, questioning the Holocaust wouldn’t be a thought crime in 16 European countries. No other event in human history is so fascistically protected from scrutiny. None but the Holocaust, thanks to Jewish power. Robert Faurisson conclusively dismantled the Nazi gas chamber myth, so Jewish power destroyed his academic career, put him on… Read more »

mark
Reader
mark

All the above is true. Though by now we all know that the truth is “anti semitic.”

I have asked many times why the previous “3.5 million Jews gassed at Auschwitz” is now “1.1 million.”
Nobody has yet given me an answer, plausible or otherwise.
The human skin lampshades were intended as a joke by a Soviet official with a weird sense of humour.
The human soap was recycled WW1 atrocity propaganda.

Johan Meyer
Reader
Johan Meyer

The reason is not a secret. The 4 million was a Soviet estimate, that was challenged by Raul Hilberg. The latter estimated 1 million. His argument may be found in Destruction of the European Jews.

It is a bit freaky to have scientifically illiterate (not even grade 12 chemistry) clowns like Proyect milling about—nightmare fuel.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

the following allegedly scientific references may be of interest:

http://holocausthandbooks.com/

Dimly Glimpsed
Reader
Dimly Glimpsed

The sad irony is that the decades long-standing propaganda and censorship of discussion of The Holocaust has created a seething underground of anti-semitism which points to the censorship and propaganda as proof of their anti-semitic arguments. Another irony is that racist Jews like Bibi and Adelson will never feel the sting of anti-semitism, while progressive American Jews who criticize Israel and support Palestinian rights are accessible targets for vicious and ignorant anti-semitic bigots.

Robert Montgomery
Reader
Robert Montgomery

Even the term “The Holocaust” why is it capitalised? is misleading as if it was the first and only when it is neither.

Dimly Glimpsed
Reader
Dimly Glimpsed

I agree. As I’m sure you know, the etymology of term “Holocaust” is quite interesting. Same goes for “antisemitism”. I use the terms not ideologically, but rather as an established convention.

barovsky
Reader

This is why I label Zionism anti-semitic, never mind Israel Shamir’s gefilte fish (which I really love and have done since my Auntie Lizzie in Leeds turned me onto it as a kid). My mum used to buy it out of a wooden barrel in Soho, my Friday treat with a giant pickled cuke. All gone of course.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

progressive American Jews who criticize Israel and support Palestinian rights

sure, there’s at least a few dozen of them. most of them are at MondoWeiss.

crank
Reader
crank

Further to that, if we look at many of the twitter accounts around this issue we find a circle of feeds that all have the same website link to torahjews.org and all have between 2,000 and 10,000 followers: Jewish Identity Voice of Our Rabbis Original Jews Jews vs Israel American Jewry Satmar View Diaspora Jews (as well as the True Torah Jews mentioned above). Again, there does seem to be a genuine objection to zionism amongst some modern day Jews of New York area (about 1.5 million in total). I do wonder whether the religious component of this is as… Read more »

crank
Reader
crank

Been looking at the much linked-to ‘Torah Jews’ website. These seem to be the go to referal when making the assertion that ‘many Jews reject Israel’s claim to be the ‘Jewish State’ and reject zionism or the equating of anti-zionism with anti-semitism’. There are no names anywhere on the website (that I can find). All the commentary articles are anonymous, as are the contact details. Nobody puts their name to any of it. A Google maps search of their address produces a small cellphone shop in New York. Their Twitter feed is remarkably devoid of retweets, and comprises almost exclusively… Read more »

barovsky
Reader

I’m not sure where you get your info from but there’s an entire sect of Orthodox Jews who do NOT accept the state of Israel, and it’s based on the notion that until the Second Coming, Israel is an illegitimate state. I’ve been on demonstrations with them in London and New York, much to the confusion of NY cops who couldn’t figure out why they weren’t demonstrating with the Zionists.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

If 97% of people who self-identify as “Jewish” are active or passive supporters of zionism (as in, they are members of Jewish organizations which actively support zionism), whereas 3% (a charitable estimate) keep telling us “not all Jews…” or “zionism is anti-semitic”, who should we believe? Why is it supposed to be a 3% minority who are the supreme authority on the content of Jewish identity? These claims are implausible on their face. Jewish identity is what the large majority of people who so identify say it is — that’s why it’s called “Jewish identity”. A common argument is that… Read more »

crank
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crank

I wouldn’t know the numbers myself. If it weren’t so serious it would all be quite funny. I mean, the likes of Asa Winstanley recently point out Lansman and Owen Jones supporting Israel, and accuse them of antisemitically linking Jewishness with zionism. Owen Jones is of course the biggest supporter of anti-zionist Jeremy Corbyn, and so gets labelled an antisemite from the Right. People like Atzmon get labelled antisemite by Greenstein et al for stating that zionism and jewish identity are effectively inseparable to critical thinkers. A small sect of religious Jews claim that they speak for ‘Real Jews’ against… Read more »

crank
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crank

Perhaps for a religious organisation or individual that is more representative of devout Jewish views on Israel, we might look to chabad or Rabbi Sachs?
Those circles have considerably more followers, and more branches reaching out to Jewish community groups and synagogues accross the world.

crank
Reader
crank

I’ve said where I’ve got my information from in the post. I don’t dispute that there are religiously observant Jews who object to zionism on theological grounds. I am questioning the often read inference that this is particularly representative. I am new to researching this and would gladly stand corrected, but I have not found a large, vocal and organised campaign amongst religious Jews in the UK or the US on this issue. I see a small, self referencing circle of non-conformists who get their message amplified by non-religious anti-zionists. You yourself say that you are not religious, yet you… Read more »

barovsky
Reader

I never said they were representative of anything except their own sect but they exist and they’re quite vocal. As to being on a demo ‘with them’, well no, I was on a demo in Brooklyn protesting the visit of Begum, the Orthodox posse were ALSO on the demo (as a group, as I said much to the confusion of the NYC cops). Ditto for the one I was on in Trafalgar Square, both these by the way, some years ago. My lack of religion is neither nor there.

crank
Reader
crank

As to being on a demo ‘with them’, well no, I was on a demo in Brooklyn protesting the visit of Begum, the Orthodox posse were ALSO on the demo (as a group, as I said much to the confusion of the NYC cops). Ditto for the one I was on in Trafalgar Square, both these by the way, some years ago. Ok, I misread what you previously wrote. I am interested about whether my point is right or wrong about an over-representation of anti-zionist sentiment amongst religious Jews in the US or UK in the anti-zionist Left alt media..… Read more »

barovsky
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Frankly, I’ve no idea, but I suspect it’s quite small.

crank
Reader
crank

A ‘neo-nazi website’ edited by a man of Jewish descent, Ron Unz ? Nothing in that quote above is, strictly speaking, ‘neo-nazi’. No Aryan supremicism, no call of allegiance to a fuhrer, no call to arms in a bid to ‘crush the weak’ or other such deranged rhetoric. You could argue that it is ‘Holocaust denial’ (or holocaust skepeticism), or that such criticism of ‘Jewish Power’ is often a feature of neo-nazi writing- but correlation is not always causation. Unz, Atzmon, Shamir, …Finkelstein even. There are Jewish voices that recognise a tendency of Jewish elites to organise amongst their own… Read more »

louisproyect
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Yeah, Unz was born a Jew but he does not believe that Jews were exterminated in the millions. I’d explain that in the same way I’d explain Black Americans voting for Trump. In any case, if you spend 5 minutes at UNZ Review, you’ll discover that it is filled with racism as well, especially from Ron Unz: Or consider the fascinating historical case of Emmett Till, mentioned earlier, whose murder in 1955 became the archetypal case of an innocent black youngster lynched by murderous Southern whites, perhaps even lending some inspiration to Harper Lee’s public school classic To Kill a… Read more »

mark
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mark

There are endless examples of these hoaxes.
Recent examples are the Jussie Smollett “racist and homophobic attack.”
The Catholic boys in MAGA hats who were demonised by the lying MSM when it was left wing extremists causing the trouble.
163 bomb threats to US synagogues made by a Jewish man in Israel.

crank
Reader
crank

I wouldn’t argue against the assertion that there are racist articles at unz.com. Not all racists are ‘neo-nazis’ though. I wrote a comment on here a couple of weeks back to the effect that I feel ‘politically homeless’. Although I stand opposed to racist ideologies, I am increasingly distanced from the Left’s insistance on policing acceptable discourse, and even policing acceptable thought. In fact I think the Left’s descent into identitarianism is counter to any remaining commitment to a universalist ideal. Whilst the Right are plagued by irrationality and subject to self serving emotion, the Left are often constricting debate… Read more »

Seamus Padraig
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Seamus Padraig

I read articles at unz, amongst many places (Left and Right). I dislike the indulgence in overt racism that I read in the pieces and comments there, yet at the same time it is a rare place for non neo-nazi critiques of Jewish power – something I see as undeniable in todays world. For seeing what is plain as day, the Left tell me that I am a racist regardless of any discussion of the facts.

As Gilad Atzmon–yet another brilliant writer who got canned from CounterPunch–would put it: ‘Jewish power is the power to silence criticism of Jewish power.’

mark
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mark

Max Blumenthal and Medea Benjamin, among others. Miko Peled. And people like the late Gerald Kaufman and Harold Pinter, who had a belly full of Zionist antics. Glenn Greenwald. And others. Good people who have put their heads above the parapet.

Joshua Frank
Reader

This article is patently false. We never removed Ed’s article. It was bumped from our main page, because we can only fit a certain number of pieces on the sidebar during our Weekend Edition. It was still on our current articles page, his author page and searchable via Google. It’s still up on our site, always has been. We hope Ed will correct his error.

Antipropo
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Antipropo

Just can’t get away with that mate, if it’s a simple as you claim why did he not get a reply to his repeated queries about the matter? Perhaps you could explain that.

Zoltan Jorovic
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Zoltan Jorovic

I see you found time to publish an article on the subject on your website, but wouldn’t a simple email response at the outset have avoided all this? You say this article is false, but then admit that the CIA article was “bumped” from your main page – so not exactly “false” then, more like, a misunderstanding, exacerbated by you failure to reply to a reasonable query. Also to sign off the article “your humble editors” just seems like mockery. That said, this writer does seem to have overreacted and leapt to conclusions by establishing a conspiracy. Not sure what… Read more »

zach
Reader
zach

Counterpunch’s efforts to decree the legitimate boundary on the left could have worked if its readership had been composed of unthinking liberals. It’s no wonder their begging for donations is now so frantic.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

— but this policy is recommended by the highest possible left-liberal authority:

The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum – even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there’s free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.

Noam Chomsky

paul metcalf
Reader
paul metcalf

Bevin,try michael collins piper if you are interested in who killed jfk.

bevin
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bevin

I’m really not interested. I don’t think that it is very significant. But thank you for your polite and thoughtful reply.

Joerg
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Joerg

“Anti-Semites” are those who are against the Palestinians – who are the only and true descendants of the old Hebrews – and Anti-Semites are those, who are/were against the Arabs. FULLSTOP! So those who murdered the people and countries of Somalia, Iraq, Libya, Syria and who mass murder the Palestinians to this day are the real Anti-Semites. This because Arabs and Hebrew-Palestinians are of Semitic race (according to their own race ideology of these Anti-Semites). Israelis and those who consider themselves by race to be “Jewish” are not of Semitic race but of Turk (not “Ottoman”) race. this because they… Read more »

milosevic
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milosevic
Joerg
Reader
Joerg

@milosevic
Very interesting indeed! thank You!

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

Having read the above, as well as some of his other writing, I very much doubt that he considers zionism to be intrinsically anti-semitic, since ethnic supremacism seems to be the very essence of Jewishness.

But if you know him personally, why not ask?

milosevic
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milosevic
barovsky
Reader

See: Leading Israel lobby group sees massive rise in budget
https://electronicintifada.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=70effeb5f63e84ab0c0730984&id=012d80c02c&e=e55063ad42

A leading pro-Israel group in Brussels has seen its budget increase fivefold over the past few years.

The European Jewish Association has become increasingly prominent in efforts to counter the Palestinian call for boycott, divestment and sanctions. One of its campaign priorities is to convince political parties that they should issue policy statements rejecting the BDS movement as anti-Semitic.

The association has a massive war chest.

The latest annual budget that it declared came to $8.5 million. That is five times the $1.7 million per year figure previously stated by the association.

barovsky
Reader

So anti-zionism is just anti-semitism in disguise? This is the trope that the Labour Party Zionists used, not only to castigate Corbyn but also to get the internationally accepted description of anti-semitism replaced with exactly this! Outrageous! Oh, but I forgot, I’m just a self-hating Jew.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

I’m just a self-hating Jew. Why not just resign from Jewishness? Then you can think as you please, without having to worry whether your opinions are contrary to the perceived interests of a nasty ethnic-supremacist cult. Everything that has a beginning, has an end as well. Before the French Revolution, the Jewish people supported despotism against aristocracy, and the Magna Carta was signed by King John despite their opposition. After Napoleon, the Jewish people had had a long alliance with the Left. It was long, but not forever. This alliance has been severed in the aftermath of failed 1968 revolution.… Read more »

barovsky
Reader

BTW, Milosovic, Israel Shamir is an old friend of mine and like Israel, I regard Zionism as intrinsically anti-semitic!

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

Having read the above, as well as some of his other writing, I very much doubt that he considers zionism to be intrinsically anti-semitic, since ethnic supremacism seems to be the very essence of Jewishness.

But if you know him personally, why not ask?

barovsky
Reader

Okay, I will.Will let you know what he says.

Tim Jenkins
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Tim Jenkins

Nothing beats civil discussion, as evidenced here: Thank you.

I personally would be very interested in your quest for further clarification.

You appear trustworthy 🙂

barovsky
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Tim, ‘I appear trustworthy’ but appearances can be deceptive. Just kidding. I have emailed Israel and I await a response. you’ll be the first to know.

BTW, I stand by opinion the Zionism is anti-semitic, in fact it’s blindingly obvious simply by the nature of this debate on anti-semitism ie, redefining anti-semitism as including any criticism of the Zionist entity, Israel.

Israel Shamir
Reader

I’ve been asked whether I consider Zionism being intrinsically anti-Semitic. Well, next step, you’ll call gefilte fish – antisemitic)) Is Islamism anti-Muslim? Were Ustasha anti-Catholic? Was Shin Fein anti-Irish? Was NSDAP anti-German? I think it is too paradoxical! Here is a longer take: The Jewish law has a sensible rule: “Minhag Israel din hu”, meaning ‘Israel (that is Jewish umma) acts righteously”, the way Jews act is the way of Jewish law. Provided that majority of Jews accept Zionism, it is not against them. The way out of this problem is to invoke the erevrav thesis, saying that a lot… Read more »

barovsky
Reader

Why not just resign from Jewishness? Then you can think as you please, without having to worry whether your opinions are contrary to the perceived interests of a nasty ethnic-supremacist cult. Resign from Jewishness? Not sure what that means but to clarify, I’m not Jewish by religion (I don’t have a religion), there’s no such thing as the Jewish race, so at best, I’m Jewish because my mum told me I am, which, as she, like me was a communist, I’m Jewish by ‘culture’, the culture of European Jews (she was from Russia). BTW, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment (self-hating… Read more »

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

I DO think as I please

I don’t doubt it, and I’m sure your mother does too. The point is that if you stop identifying yourself as “Jewish”, the overt zionists won’t be able to call you “self-hating”, and the covert zionists won’t be able to point to you as part of their “not all jews…” disinfo campaign.

(that it is a disinfo campaign, becomes obvious as soon as one dares to ask, “among people who self-identify as ‘Jewish’, what are the relative proportions of zionists and anti-zionists?”)

barovsky
Reader

Milosovic, I’m not sure if that’s the correct approach, to deny my history, my ancestors, but it’s true to say that if my mum (ashes these past 26 yrs) hadn’t told me that she/I’m of ‘Jewish’ descent then yes, I’d never know. On the other hand, the Nazis completely exterminated my mother’s family during WWII, how can I forget that they were wiped out because they were Jews (and of course, Russians, the untermensch)? I’m also part Roma and 2-3 million Roma were also exterminated, should I also forget that? I think the issue, as I’ve said elsewhere, is NOT… Read more »

Willem
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Willem

All this -ishms, -cals, and -ists steer away from the fact that your human.

Just call yourself human and act humane, steer away from the unanswerable ‘logical song’

noseBag
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noseBag

Counterpunch trashing someone can be treated in the same way as not believing anything until it’s officially denied.

Yarkob
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Yarkob

Jeffery St Clair is no one’s “buddie” He’s a tool of the highest order, who seems to take his publishing orders from the Atlanti Council now. Perhaps someone gave him the nod regarding the dirt they hold on him and made him an offer he couldn’t refuse. Perhaps he’s always been a tool

barovsky
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Perhaps he’s just another ‘liberal’. You don’t need to be on the payroll to support imperialism, check out Tariq Ali for example, being a ‘lefty’ is just another job.

Idi Malink
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Idi Malink

Where can one find Tariq Ali articles now?

barovsky
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robjira
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robjira

Thanks for the link to your written piece; much appreciated. In all honesty, to paraphrase the Dude, it’s mainly like, your opinion, man. Ali’s main transgression in the interview you’ve also graciously linked to, is calling the game at its outset (2012, before it became obvious that the “opposition” was scarcely peaceful, and that foreign powers were already overtly intervening in Syria, and before the commitment of Russian Aerospace forces when it became obvious that foreign powers were importing proxy militias to do their dirty work). As commenters on your original piece noted, Ali has always been against direct intervention… Read more »

barovsky
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So Ali’s call that “Assad has to go” is legitimate?

robjira
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robjira

It’s no more nor less legitimate than your own (or anyone else’s) opinion on the matter. Again, this is based on material that predates the more unsavory revelations about Syria’s misfortune became apparent (remember this was 2012, scarcely one year after the sheise started hitting the fan, and two years before the situation changed dramatically once again). You do raise an interesting point, though; how does one define “legitimate,” and by what criteria is such a definition measured? To brand someone a “fake lefty” over an error due to incomplete information, while a fluid situation is still evolving seems rather… Read more »

barovsky
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So, it’s all just down to opinions? Well that settles that doesn’t it. What’s the point of this exchange if it’s just my opinion versus Ali’s?

I give up,

robjira
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robjira

Well, yes; it is all down to opinions in the end. The point of this exchange (I guess) is to determine whether Tariq Ali is a “fake lefty” (and therefore deserving of condemnation or derision), because he supposedly supports imperialist ideology. If we use the examples you’ve provided as a yardstick, one could argue effin Trotsky was an imperialist with the whole “export the revolution thing;” is Trotsky therefore a fake leftist? I didn’t mean to wind you up, and maybe I’m arguing from a point not as informed as yours. This happens from time to time in the exchange… Read more »

vexarb
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vexarb

Thanks for that expose’ of passe’ Trendy Lefty Tariq Ali.

By the way, if your mother (of blessed memory) told you, you are Jewish, then you are.

barovsky
Reader

I might add re the Tariq Ali thing, that it is possible to make a very good living out of being some kind of lefty, as long as you’re anti-communist that is.

barovsky
Reader

Yes, I’m aware of the ‘fact’ that Judaism is matrilineal, though I hear that Israel has rewritten this ‘rule’ so now either parent will do. I wonder why (not).

robjira
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robjira

I’d be interested to know in what way Tariq Ali supports imperialism; what I’ve read (and listened to) by him indicates the exact opposite. I did a quick search and only came up with someone saying that Ali’s speaking positively about Hezb’allah and Iran qualifies him as a kind of “crypto-imperialist” because Iran is (at least according to the usual suspects) “the world’s leading exporter of Islamic fundamentalism (never heard of Saud-owned Arabia, I guess).
Anyway, if you know of where I might try looking for more on Ali supporting imperialism I’d appreciate the help. ^_^