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People’s Vote: Corbyn Signs His Own Death Warrant

Kit Knightly

Throughout his leadership of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn has disappointed some of his most ardent admirers by his refusal to hang tough. Yes, he has played many situations with canniness and subtlety, but too often he has been soft, appeased and conciliated where it is either unnecessary, or worse, entirely counter productive.

Too often he vows to “listen” to the problems of dissenting New Labour MPs, instead of asserting his authority. Too many times he has promised to “tackle antisemitism”, instead of bluntly telling everyone – “Labour is NOT antisemitic, this is a smear campaign”.

Corbyn should know by now that he can’t win by playing their game by their rules. You can’t appease people who do not want to be appeased. You can’t clean up a smear campaign, and trying just spreads the smears further.

However, none of his previous mistakes compare to the kamikaze of backing a people’s vote on Brexit, a huge mistake that undermines the Labour movement from multiple angles.

Firstly, there is “The Independent Group” to consider – this is, essentially, a cave to their demands. Corbyn has now shown he will bow to threats of defection and the loss of eight entirely forgettable MPs. More than bowing to the pressure, he has handed them legitimacy. Before today The Independent Group was a joke – their launch fell flat, they are all variously personally compromised, they have no policies, no ideology, no leader and they are even registered as business, NOT a political party.

They should have been ignored, mocked even, but not taken seriously. This decision hands them power. A dreadful mistake, that breathes life into a New Labour movement that has been husking out its last moments ever since Corbyn was elected leader.

Yes, it’s true this is technically no change from the Labour Conference position – but this announcement has meaning. Whatever the truth of the situation – the media can now present TIG as a small group who stood for their principles, and in doing so bent “Corbyn’s Personality Cult” back to the path of reason. Paying off a blackmailer is never the solution. They always want more.

Secondly, there is the Lexit vote. Brexit is not a purely left-vs-right issue. The media have tried to present Brexit as a battle between lovely cuddly progressives who want to remain and awful mean racists who want to leave. Obviously it was never that simple. There is a very real portion of the left who believe the EU is anti-democratic. It’s important to remember that being anti-EU was always a traditionally socialist position. A second referendum is a betrayal of those people, and weakening of Corbyn’s socialist base. There are marginal seats, especially in the poorer areas of the county, who will swing against Labour if it is perceived they are campaigning to stop Brexit.

Third, a teetering and hilariously incompetent Tory government has been shown a crack of hope here. They can now pitch themselves as “The British Party”, standing up for the nation against the “European” Labour party who want to “sell us out to Brussels”. You can be sure that’s how the Mail, Times and Sun will sell it. May can leverage this into a “khaki election” and win on a landslide of national pride.

Finally, and most importantly, there is the question of undermining democracy itself. It has never, ever, before been suggested we simply re-do a vote because we don’t like the outcome. Brexit has been sold as a vote “built on misinformation”, we have been told that “the realities have changed”, and that new voters have come of age, whilst old voters died. We have even been told Brexit needs to be undone because it is a threat to our “national security”.

A second referendum lends credence to these arguments – it sets the precedent. Demographic changes, dishonesty, national security. These lines of argument are vague and unquantifiable enough that they could then be cited as reason to delegitimize literally ANY vote. Up to, and including, a general election….that Jeremy Corbyn won.

“Labour lied about privatising water”….re-do the vote.
“Millions of old lefties have died since the last election”….re-do the vote.
“Corbyn’s campaign manager is a security threat”….re-do the vote.

The EU has form when it comes to replaying referenda until they get the result they want, but it is new in the British experience.

The actual form the vote is still undecided. Will it be a choice between two deals? Will there be a “remain option”? But this is largely immaterial. If the option is “this deal or no deal” and “no deal” has been ruled out, then a no vote on the deal is a vote to remain. The threat of no deal has been hammered home to us in a thousand different ways. A vote which “forces” no deal will be seen as a threat to the nation and discarded. Moving the deadline back is already being mooted, they can do this as many times as they want until people forget we were ever meant to leave, or will accept a deal which is just remain renamed.

The problem is not Brexit. The establishment has a million different tools for deconstructing, preventing, obfuscating and totally halting Brexit. The problem, from the establishment POV, is Jeremy Corbyn. They can’t stop Brexit until Corbyn has been removed…and Corbyn has now handed them the power to do this.

It’s important to hold all these issues in their proper perspective – this is about Corbyn, not Brexit. Corbyn is the threat, not Brexit.

In or out of the EU, a Tory or New Labour government would still push austerity for the poor and tax breaks for the rich.
In or out of the EU, a Tory or New Labour government will pour money into the arms industry whilst neglecting public services.
In or out of the EU, a Tory or New Labour government will still support American interventions in Syria, Venezuela and around the globe.

And, in or out of the EU, Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party would have reversed all of those policies.

That’s why MPs from every party have been actively trying to weaken his leadership, remove him from office and destroy public faith in his ideas. More than that, Corbyn is the only party leader who might actually deliver a proper departure from the EU (he would need to do so, in some ways, to enact his manifesto). Corbyn, and his fellow socialists, undermine the idea of Brexit as the cause of the racist rich.

If anyone but Jeremy Corbyn was leader of the Labour party one of two things would have already happened:

  1. The 2D Blairite elected in Corbyn’s place would have “united for common purpose” with the Tories to deliver Brexit in name only, and we’d have left the EU under a deal that was essentially the exact status quo under a rebranded status quo. Austerity – check. Free movement – check. Preparing to contribute to the EU army. Some small concessions, perhaps. Even less democratic representation.

  2. Brexit would have been called off entirely and we’d all have been “saved from an act of national self-harm”.

Brexit is NOT the biggest political crisis in Britain’s history. It isn’t even the most important political question facing us this decade, year or month. Austerity is. Growing poverty. Defunded public services. Privatisation of our transport, water and eventually our NHS. These are real crises.

The most important question we need to ask is – what is better for ordinary people, a Conservative government or a Labour government?

Do we want to be a neo-liberal state slowly crushing the poorest and most vulnerable beneath austerity’s boot heel? Or do we want to change, and try take care of each other?

For all the criticism of Jeremy Corbyn from the left, he has been steadfast in trying to secure a socialist government for this country, and undo the evil of the austerity. In backing the “people’s vote”, I fear he has dashed any chance of that happening.

Kit Knightly is co-editor of OffGuardian. The Guardian banned him from commenting. Twice. He used to write for fun, but now he's forced to out of a near-permanent sense of outrage.

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Lupulco
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Lupulco

[Corbyn should know by now that he can’t win by playing their game by their rules. You can’t appease people who do not want to be appeased. You can’t clean up a smear campaign, and trying just spreads the smears further.]

Change the name or delete it. Change Anti-Semitic, to Islamophobic,or to homophobic, or to racist. There you have the problem in a sentence. Whatever you say will upset someone, so people start to self censor their feelings, until those feeling suddenly rise to the surface.

Free speech is a dangerous thing, but to stop free speech in the long term can be even more dangerous. When the time is ripe, or when the right? person come along to tap this sense of injustice felt by many people who feel aggrieved by the action of certain sects and countries but are not allowed to openly criticise.

But back to Labour or any major political party. They have shown that they totally disregard democracy [unless the outcome suits them] be it Brexit in the UK, or the election of Trump in the US. [get over it Trump was elected four four years,]

What the political establishment as shown [via MSM] that their form of Democracy was a total sham. They have established a cosy cartel of professional politicians who have very little experience of life our side of their cartel and see the masses as stupid voters who follow their political agendas like zombies.

The problem now [for them,] is how to get the genie back into the bottle. The last two or three years have shown to the masses the illusion of Democracy and the two party state for what it is, an illusion.

What is required now is change, by change i don’t mean man the barricades and violent insurrection [the elites have bigger sticks and are better organised then the masses] but gentle changes. One example; The heads of states [be they Presidents or Prime Ministers are in post [usually] for a maximum of two terms. This should be the norm for all so called democracies.

The Senators, Congressmen, Members of Parliament etc should also be limited to a maximum number of terms in office [say 3 or 4 terms] and elections held every 4 years with 50% of the seats contested every second year [as per the USA]

What they [Political Class] have achieved world wide is what i call a Copernicus moment. The sun does not revolve around the world, nor does the world revolve round the professional political class.

mark
Reader
mark

Maybe what Jezza and all progressive forces need to do is fight fire with fire.
Get down and dirty.
Get right down in the sewer with them.
Give them as good as you get.
Repay them in their own coin.
Toss the rule book in the bin.
Run smear campaigns. Get some dirt on them. If there isn’t any, just invent it like they do.
Plant stories with friends.
Harass, blackmail and bribe.
Use every dirty trick in the book, then invent a few more.
This is what the Zionists have been doing for years.
Let’s teach them a few things.
They like dishing it out.
See how they like taking it.
They started it, and they’re not going to stop, so you can do whatever you like with a clean conscience.
Whatever you like.
And take politics back on to the streets where it belongs.

Maggie
Reader
Maggie

EXACTLY!! Which is what I have been attempting to do on every forum or comment page I can. Show the Vampire HYDRA for what it is…
Begin now with the ”Lobby” both the UK and US.

I wonder if they have ever stopped to think WHY countries throughout History have expelled them? I they really SO stupid.
The problem is that they have skilfully engineered their places in the Judiciary, Politics, and Banking, and from there some of them are choosing to inflict the utmost damage.
I cannot think of any other Religion that has wormed it’s way into people’s heads like this one. The Catholics tried in the dark ages… but soon realised it was not in their own interests to foment so much hatred.

The only reason the Zionist/Israel is “getting away with murder“ is because they have blackmailed and gagged us. And turned US against one another.

I have been fortunate enough to have a large circle of friends and colleagues who I have been able to have cordial discussions and ‘ ‘arguments’ with about a myriad of subjects, which increased my and their knowledge equally. However, a few years ago in a discussion about the holocaust, at a dinner party with lifelong friends – one of them a Business Management Consultant became very belligerent and asked if I had read Mein Kamf? And actually accused me of being anti-semetic??? For suggesting there was more to the story than we were told.
Only two of the other eight actually agreed with me and understood what I was saying? It was then I realised just how deep the Zionist propaganda had bitten. Not one knew anything” about the founder of Zionism Theodor Hertzl, or that Palestine had been earmarked in 1896.
Sad to say, despite being friends for over 35 years, I can no longer be in their company.
No one in their right mind believes that there were no atrocities committed… it was WAR, and that is the nature of war. Men and even women now,are trained to become animals. To kill without conscience. You only need to look at the excuse for a woman in Guantanamo….

The obsessive invocation of the cabalistic fable of “6,000,000 dead or dying Jews” dating back at least four decades prior to the events of WWII directly undermines and betrays the notion that 6,000,000 Jews perished in Europe between 1939-1945, as Jews have claimed. It was a lie the first time, and it is a lie today!
As were the gas chambers as death chambers. They were in fact de lousing chambers.
See Elie Weisa`ls lie in this article too;” Jewish Press February 1991 ”Iraq has Gas chambers for ALL Jews” And in Weisenthall’s ” Response, Vol. 12, No. 1, Spring 1991 The Global Fallout of Desert Storm. Germans produce Zyclon B for Iraq’s German made Gas chambers.
http://balder.org/judea/Six-Million-140-Occurrences-Of-The-Word-Holocaust-And-The-Number-6,000,000-Before-The-Nuremberg-Trials-Began.php
Scroll to the bottom of this article and you will see that the 6.000.000 has been weaponised since 1869…… And like obedient sheep we have been driven into their pens to be slaughtered in wars of their making, so that they could have control of land and resources.
But I say NO MORE…
We all have immediate access to the internet, where FACTS can be verified instantly.. . There really is no excuse for ignorance…

The first step in stopping this EVIL, is to teach the Holocaust thoroughly in schools, encourage critical investigations on both sides… which WILL lead eventually to the information above…only then will the truth replace cynical manipulative lies.
Norman Finkelstein’s The Holocaust Industry” and Miko Peled ”The General’s Son” and ”Injustice” should be compulsory reading for all students.

https://mikopeled.com/to-book-miko-peled-for-a-lecture/about/
Here is a balanced blog dedicated to tearing down the separation wall and transforming the Israeli apartheid system into a democratic state with equal rights. This is an idea that may be a bitter pill to swallow for Jews and some Palestinians who will have to let go of the dream of having a state that is exclusively Jewish or Muslim. The articles, the stories and the pictures in this blog are meant to make a single point: For the good of both nations, the Israeli apartheid system must be defied and BDS must be adopted fully so that the Separation Wall will come down, and a democracy with equal rights can be established in Palestine.

tom197482
Reader

I think, on balance, Corbyn was right to jump on the referendum. He could not remain shackled to a policy that half the voters, and a larger proportion of Labour voters, oppose. The possibility of another referendum gives him room for manoeuvre in the future, whatever happens – and the likelihood is that the future will see Brexit stall or become increasingly unpopular.
I’m also not at all convinced that Brexit is as decisive in people’s voting choices as the media suggest. I supported Labour when it was a ‘Brexit party’ even though I voted Remain – I doubt very much that many Labour voters will vote Tory over Brexit.
I believe much of this ‘anger’ at Labour and ‘unpopularity’ is generated by the Tories, their client media and pollsters who fabricate results on demand, just as the ‘anti-semitism’ smears are. It is all part of a campaign by the establishment to bolster the Tories by trying to nobble the opposition parties. Reassuringly, perhaps, these attempts to cheat are becoming increasingly desperate and obvious.

mark
Reader
mark

A “second referendum” is a betrayal of democracy which shows the usual utter contempt for the British People.

John Crispin
Reader
John Crispin

I agree but I just wish it was a bit more obvious to the gullible gobblers of the media bullshit. The complete failure including by the likes of Tom Watson to differentiate anti semitism and anti Zionism is living proof tom of your assertion about the smears. The fact they keep on wheeling it,… today even they get the mealy mouthed Lord Falconer to slam poor old chris williamson who manfully stood by his guns on this absolute tripe proved yet again that Labour is acting all the time like it is beaten. So time to man up jezza and if necessary go down guns blazing .

Paul
Reader
Paul

Tom Watson would indeed make an excellent Witch Finder General – and he’d love the job! He must be stopped!

mark
Reader
mark

Williamson has just been suspended for “anti semitism.”
He called out the anti semitic smear campaign for what it is.
The Board of Deputies and the Israeli Embassy are trying to pick off everybody round Jezza one by one.
Ken Livingstone, Marc Wadsworth, Hatton a day after he rejoined.
Claiming the right to sack anyone who “offends” them.

Robert Applewood
Reader
Robert Applewood

Please let us think about what we are saying: “We have Corbyn, who is anti-establishment, who is being demonized by the establishment. People support him. But he is strangely lenient about the new labor MP’s in his party who is digging his grave. Inexplicably he doesn’t throw these dinosaurs out of the party but retreats before them as if they have any real power. On issue after issue, he backtracks and falls into line. Why? Nobody is quite sure….” Well, isn’t it time we wake up finally? Haven’t we seen the same story with Tsipras, Trump, 5-star movement in Italy, Podemos in Spain and elsewhere? Isn’t it obviously clear by now that Corbyn is not what we thought he is? Isn’t it crystal clear by now that he is a trojan horse, a false prophet if you wish, who was installed by the establishment to drive the people to a blind street, to dash their hopes, to make them feel powerless? Is the establishment so stupid to let an anti-establishment figure to lead a mainstream party which can come to power any minute? And about the mccarthyte attacks on Corbyn? Well, how would he gain the trust of the people without those attacks? Isn’t it the same story with Trump as well? Oh those little farces they are playing all the time. Time to wake up, people!

Paul
Reader
Paul

You too Brutus!

crank
Reader
crank

Corbynism 12-09-2015 to 27-02-2018. RIP

– He fought the foes with amity,
We dreamed a dawn begun,
But the foes they took his friendship
as bullets for their gun.

crank
Reader
crank

2019 !

Corbyn is an imbecile amongst imbeciles. One flew over the cuckoos nest of spineless amateurs with pathetic rhetoric. Worse than useless. Arthur Scargill

Paul
Reader
Paul

I’m sure there was a groan across the country when Chris Williamson’s suspension from the Party was announced. He’s absolutely right about the demonisation of Labour. It’s becoming like the Joe McCarthy hearings with surreal arguments over semantics. And everywhere the hand of Israel oiling the wheels and pulling the switches.

Maggie
Reader
Maggie

We had a foretaste ‘ Inside British Israeli Lobby” 2009 Dispatches should have been named ”Shape of things to come.” but who took any notice?
Camoron even said ”If I become Prime Minister, Israel has a friend who will never turn his back.”
https://mpbondblog.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/inside-britains-israel-lobby-dispatches/
If you wanted to know why and who pulled the Guardian’s teeth… look at 27.02
Incidentally, Dispatches disappeared from our screens after this….
39.00 is where the BBC was gagged! And when they lost all credibility and respect of the people.
BBC used to be excellent reporters of world news 2005/6 when BBC succumbed to the Zionists and became biased in favour of the Zionist agenda!

September 22, 2015
”Operation Ridicule: the Character Assassination of Jeremy Corbyn”
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/09/22/the-assassination-of-jeremy-corbyn-operation-ridicule/

Feb 2019
As Chris Williamson has been suspended, what is to stop him and Jackie starting their own revolution?
It is clear from day one of his leadership, that Jeremy has being constantly undermined and handcuffed, to such a degree as to render him useless…( I defy anyone to perform their proper function with all those knives in their back.) For Jeremy to continue and succeed he has to have the principals of a saint, because frankly, for all my tenacity, I would now be saying stuff the lot.

Firstly he really needs to STOP apologising to the Zionist/Israel LOBBY or acknowledging their BS.. That strangely never existed prior to him becoming leader???? He and the committee need to go on an all out smear attack themselves. Christ knows the Jewish Friends have enough skeletons in their closet all ready.
Let the Jewish Board of Deputies get themselves into a foaming frenzy.. and IGNORE them. What will they do next… shoot him?

What we CAN DO is continue to expose their lies and manipulation by posting everything we have:
;”The Lobby part 1” Recruiting Young Friends of Israel

”The Lobby part 2” The Training Session and vilification of Jackie Walker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuk1EhkEctE&t=278s
”The Lobby part 3” Exposes Joan Ryan!!!

”The Lobby part 4” The takedown of Alan Duncan.

NOTE; ALL COMMENTS ON THESE VIDEOS ARE DISABLED…..
But we can post these videos on other sites and comment.

Just imagine if there was a Pro Iran Organisation embarked on a smear campaign, recruiting in Britain which was being controlled from Tehran… there would be wholesale condemnation. The Media would be on fire with it!
So WHAT are MI5 doing about this? Allowing Israel to undermine and influence our Government?

MI5 definition of ”Espionage” …. seeking to influence decision makers and opinion formers to BENEFIT interests of a foreign power.

mark
Reader
mark

Can’t offend the Chosen People. Those shekels have to be earned you know.

harry stotle
Reader
harry stotle

The current crop of Labour MPs think Chris, Ken, Marc and Jackie bring the party in ‘disrepute’ while apparently having no problem with Mr WMD.

Moral of story: send a controversial tweet and you are toast – lay waste to the Middle East and your bank account is likely to mirror that of a Wall Street venture capitalist.

Facism on the rise while the Labour party eats itself – of course the implosion might not have been so easy to orchestrate if it wasn’t for the ever growing influence of identity politics.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

of course the implosion might not have been so easy to orchestrate if it wasn’t for the ever growing influence of identity politics.

Who orchestrated the ever-growing influence of identity politics, do you suppose?

Or was that just a fortuitous accident?

https://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2018/1/23/the-banality-of-good-part-1

http://www.gilad.co.uk / writings/2018/1/25/the-banality-of-good-pt-2-blaming-the-victim

http://www.gilad.co.uk / writings/2018/1/28/the-banality-of-good-pt3-revising-history

http://www.gilad.co.uk / writings/2018/1/30/the-banality-of-good-pt-4-anti-semitism-racism-and-cultural-identity

http://www.gilad.co.uk / writings/2018/1/31/the-banality-of-good-pt-5-pre-tsd-zionism-and-empire

http://www.gilad.co.uk / writings/2018/2/3/the-banality-of-good-pt-6-jewish-power-and-identity-politics

http://www.gilad.co.uk / writings/2018/2/5/global-tribes-and-national-hypes

http://www.gilad.co.uk / writings/2018/2/6/the-banality-of-good-pt-8-finding-the-way-home

MichaelK
Reader
MichaelK

Back in the ‘old country’ before the Second World War, we used to have referendums too. Didn’t turn out too well, because the public are too easily swayed by charismatic charlatans selling an easy and attractive narrative that dumbs down really complex issues, smothering everything in nationalistic and emotional rhetoric that can lead to disaster down the line. David Cameron only called the referendum to create a parliamentary battering ram to bash the annoying Conservative nationalist right to pieces, in the first place. It was a cynical tactical piece of political cardplay, nothing more. That the left supports this is… extraordinary, though perhaps understandable, they’re so desparate for powr they’ll do almost anything regardless of how potentially damaging it is.

mark
Reader
mark

The Tory Party was divided down the middle. The country was divided down the middle.

Paul
Reader
Paul

What ‘old country’ is that? Italy under Mussolini? Argentinia under Peron? France Under German occupation? Please tell!

MichaelK
Reader
MichaelK

Does it really, honestly, matter to you? Think of a country that’s worse than the ones you mentioned. Done that? You might be in line for a special prize.

Democracy in ancient Athens and a few other Greek city states, was a rather perculiar thing, at least seen with our eyes, though still a rather radical and wonderful… experiment… that didn’t really work. it was, I’d argue, a luxury even then, for free men in Athens, where the vast majority of the population, probably 80% didn’t have a vote. The very idea of mass democracy would have appalled the voters of Athens, because only citizens were supposed to take part in it. What does ‘citzenship’ mean today? Can one have a properly functioning democracy without proper citizens?

Mikalina
Reader
Mikalina

The elite know themselves to be the citizens; we are the cattle – whether in Rome, Ancient Athens, our Home countries pre-war or our countries today. This is why they choose democracy – it works for them.

“error is only justice: prompt, severe and inflexible; it is then an emanation of virtue; it is less a distinct principle than a natural consequence of the general principle of democracy, applied to the most pressing wants of the country.” Robespierre

Mikalina
Reader
Mikalina

That should be “Terror….”

Paul
Reader
Paul

I was just curious about what you meant. Sorry for interrupting your chain of thought, if that’s what you call it!

MichaelK
Reader
MichaelK

You do know, I suppose that you sound catty, which is a particularly unpleasant quality.

Kathy
Reader
Kathy

I am genuinely unable to see how leaving or remaining within the EU offer any conceivable difference. They are both holding us within the same paradigm. They both mirror each other. If we were to have a true {taking back control} a true over haul of the system as is. If by leaving we really were to become a free thinking land of peace, a utopia spreading outwards and embracing the whole world. But sadly I only see a drawing up of sides and a drawing down of communication and a splitting of the people against the people.
I can see the false in the EU. The lie is however just as alive and flourishing within the UK as it is there. So I feel we delude ourselves if we think that Brexit will in any way change this in or of itself. It is a Hobson’s choice, a ruse, a distraction. It is the paradigm we are all governed under that we need to challenge and a shift of consciousness is what is needed, not more confrontation and division and not a building up of more physical barricades and a closing in and down on ourselves. This lie is of regaining a sovereignty back from the EU. The idea of sovereignty is one of the state, not of the people.. Under the present paradigm, We are being subjected to it whoever holds the reign. In or out of the EU, we are still within their matrix.

When it comes to Brexit, I see little hope in it heralding a coming back together of the people. The vote has in fact cleaved us apart. The result of the referendum is of a divided nation. I see a country at odds and now locked and entrenched within this separation. It seems to have cast a spell on the country. We are all being sucked into civil war which ultimately serves only our masters purposes. Does it not seem contrived, a deliberate act to pull us all apart. A classic divide and rule. Are we saying that we would chose to make enemy’s of our brothers and sisters just to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. That just because Corbyn now sees it as probably a more democratic move forward, to put this all back to the people to decide, rather than for parliament to continue this toxic game at all our expense. Would we reject the chance to at least see a better hope for the future. Just to teach him a lesson. Because if this is so. Brexit really is a Gordian knot that we cannot untangle it is only going to corrode and fester any way. We have already allowed it to divert and divide us. It is unification and heeling we need to find now. Should we not be putting our energy to a better use then entering the chess board and being pawns in the game our masters have devised for us.

Maggie
Reader
Maggie

Hi Kathy,
”Does it not seem contrived, a deliberate act to pull us all apart. A classic divide and rule.”
No more so than ‘Party” politics?

John
Reader
John

It’s one thing to shoot yourself in the foot but to shoot yourself in the back of the head twice ala Clinton crime family is fucking impressive. Jezza swallows jizza

MichaelK
Reader
MichaelK

I think this article fundamentally misunderstands the core concepts inherent in democracy, on the big stage and doesn’t do much better when it examines the detail of the present political crisis in the UK relating to the Brexit fiasco.

Democracy, if it’s about anything, is about the expression of the popular will in relation to ‘popular’ issues at a particular time. Democracy is about change, the possibility of change and not about slavishly following what used to be. Democracy isn’t about a man standing and shouting with his feet solidly trapped in a bath of concrete. One vote is a ‘good’ as the next one. It’s perfectly possible for the people to change their minds and vote differently and reject what they previously voted for. In fact this democratic process is, arguably, the central idea in a democratic system. Having another vote on Brexit is an example of this perfectly normal democratic process. It happens all the time after all. Peeople vote for one government, then vote for another one at a later date. Why bother to have elections at all otherwise?

There’s is nothiing sacred about the Brexit vote at all. Another vote or an election about the terms, circumstances and consequences is perfectly reasonable. Personally I find the left’s attitude to Brexit extraordinary.

Maggie
Reader
Maggie

Pray tell me, what will happen if the next vote results in the same % of votes, but for remain? Will we then have another vote until finally we all give up, and no one votes except those with vested interests in the outcome.
An election about the terms? And how will we know about these? A large proportion of the people of this country don’t even know if they will be in a job next week, of where their next meal is coming from, and you want them to vote on ”terms?”

It is a total cockup…. The majority of people voted OUT… the Maybot should have delivered this. Not pussyfooting about waiting for the EU to give her the terms… She should have said ‘Here is what we are doing, take it or leave it, we are OUT.” And been a leader instead of an EU lapdog.

mark
Reader
mark

I think we should have another referendum…………on whether we should have another referendum.

Francis Lee
Reader
Francis Lee

”There’s is nothiing sacred about the Brexit vote at all. Another vote or an election about the terms, circumstances and consequences is perfectly reasonable.”

It is no such thing!

What an extraordinarily cavalier statement. If an election are referendum vote is not binding then the whole exercise would simply be advisory not mandatory. The only ‘terms and consequences’ to which you refer are simply conjecture not established facts. That has been the project fear blitzkreig that the establishment media have been putting out the day after the result in June 2016.

The usual procedure is that elections or referenda are conducted legally and if you don’t like the outcome you have to wait for another chance to vote for your approved candidate and policy in the fullness of time When I voted in UK elections in 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992, I was on the losing side every time. But I did not vote for a second election (it never even occured to me to do so) even though the policies being advocated would be harmful.

To demand a second referendum because you 1. Didn’t like the outcome, and, 2. were gullible enough to vote for it and were in a minority is unconstitutional and unprecedented.

This issue is not whether you liked or disliked the outcome of the referendum, but can you have a second vote a) because you didn’t like the result of the first one, or b) you treated conjecture as facts, and even if those conjectures were true that still wouldn’t validate the outcome of the June 2016 Referendum

This second referendum would open up a real Pandora’s Box of bitterness and instability – presumably you would be prepared for that?

mark
Reader
mark

We could have another referendum to decide whether we should have another referendum.
Or perhaps we should just cut the cards for the result. Aces high and jokers wild.
Or we could have a mud wrestling bout between May and Dianne Abbott, umpired by Bercow. Winner takes all.
Cut out all the swingometers and Jonathan Bumblebee droning on for hours on end.
You have to think laterally. Think outside the box. Blue sky thinking.

Some Random Passer-by
Reader
Some Random Passer-by

There is everything sacred about the vote, or any vote.

We have never ever had an election and then had another vote because it wasn’t right.

I understand your desire to change the results, but you can only change the results when they have been implemented.

If you’re willing to renege on democracy in this manner, then don’t be surprised or upset when others ignore laws and other institutions of democracy.

mark
Reader
mark

This is true. May won the last election, or at least remained in power and in government. But I don’t like that result. I think Jezza should have won. Perhaps he only lost because some people are too stupid and ignorant and bigoted to see his many qualities. Or perhaps because of the lies of the MSM, with the Daily Mail running a 14 page smear campaign the day before the election. Perhaps he only lost because people are stupid. Or because they were lied to. So I think that election is illegitimate. It is unacceptable. Maybe people have changed their minds since then and decided they don’t like May. Some people who voted against him have probably since died. So we need to have another election every couple of months. Give the people the chance to have their say. People have the right to change their minds. Let’s have a People’s Vote. Till we get the right result and Jezza is elected. Only when I am satisfied can the election be considered legitimate.

DunGroanin
Reader
DunGroanin

Mark. Nice try. But no cigar.

I agree about the fact of accepting the result of elections. Even if they were STOLEN or BOUGHT. As they always were.

However, any such criminal activity ought to be prosecuted.

There is also a difference between parliamentary or local elections and single issue referendums. Because if the elected representatives are unable to function as a government – then it is normal to go back to the voters to determine again who governs?

I only get a vote every few years at best and happily welcome the opportunity to vote as often as possible! As should we all.

mark
Reader
mark

Remain outspent Leave by 2-1. This is a bit better than 1975, when it was 100-1.

Paul
Reader
Paul

Annual elections have been a Radical aim since the 1640’s and was part of the Chartist platform in 1848. It would be easier to do now because of the tech available. MP’s wouldn’t like it because they couldn’t build a career (they’d claim) and with no guarantee of payment beyond the year they’d be as insecure as many of the voters. But it cuts them down to size and better reflects popular feeling. Time to resurrect the old claim for Annual Parliaments?

mark
Reader
mark

No, they need to be held once a week. At least.

JudyJ
Reader
JudyJ

Michael,

“Having another vote on Brexit is an example of this perfectly normal democratic process”.

I agree with much of what you say but, unfortunately, it seems to me that those with authority and the MSM pushing for a second referendum do so not out of a desire to uphold democracy but in order to overturn the democratic outcome of the original vote. I would not be opposed to a second vote myself (and I vote to leave the EU) but I do not think it is a ‘given’ that the original vote would be overturned. It largely depends on the wording of the choices given in such a referendum. All hypothetical I know, but that would be the time to judge the true respect that those calling for a second referendum have for the democratic process, and to test their mettle and present inadequacies in delivering what the majority of people might still want.

vexarb
Reader
vexarb

If this is true, then the EU is like the curate’s egg; parts of it are excellent. C’mon Corbyn, light my fire:

EU refuses to brand Hezbollah as terrorist entity

mark
Reader
mark

Hezbollah are a heroic classic resistance/ liberation movement, real freedom fighters. They fought for 20 years to drive the Zionist invaders out of Lebanon. If it wasn’t for Hezbollah, Lebanon would still be Zionist Occupied and covered with their filthy illegal settlements. The Zionist kiddie killers don’t like fighting real men in Hezbollah. They prefer to gun down kids with dum dum bullets and British sniper rifles. So they run to their 30 shekel goy whore stooges in Washington and the Friends of Israel to do their dirty work for them, as they always do. More wars for Israel.

In 2006, 4,000 Hezbollah fighters fought 75,000 Zionist forces with 600 tanks and unlimited air and naval support to a standstill. They kicked their arses, destroyed 50 tanks, shot down aircraft and destroyed a large warship. Fighting stronger after 5 weeks than they were at the beginning. The Zionist forces couldn’t handle it and resorted to their usual tricks and massacring civilians. But the goy whores in the Friends of Israel have to earn their shekels.

David William Pear
Reader
David William Pear

Interesting article Kit, and it is sad to see Corbyn caving in. Especially on this twisted new anti-Semitism purging that is going on. Soon everybody will have to sign an Israel loyalty oath, it is already happening in the US. Some states have passed laws against BDS and require employees to swear in writing that they don’t support BDS. It is on the way to becoming federal law.

About Brexit: If Brexit will weaken the US Empire then I am for it. If staying in the EU will weaken the US Empire then I am for that.

Even as a radically-left Yank I don’t pay much attention to European politics. Just keeping abreast of US illegal wars and writing about them keeps me busy. Most USAmericans just assume the UK is our poodle, and that the US owns NATO. Sadly, I can’t say that I disagree with that conclusion. I hope that changes.

When is Western Europe going to get tired of having to make sacrifices for the benefit of the US? The US doesn’t care about Europe or anybody else. As far as the US is concerned Western Europe can be sacrificed in a “limited” nuclear war with Russia. That is why Trump withdrew from the INF treaty, without much objection from Democrats or the US public.

Coram Deo
Reader
Coram Deo

Sadly, it is the left which fail to understand what a REMAIN vote means – not those who voted LEAVE.
The EU is falling apart before our eyes and yet the left wishes to continue to drain the pockets of the working class in the UK to pay the colossal salaries and pensions of these unelected bureaucrats when we cannot even afford to pay our own pensioners [WASPIs]. Enabling them to complete the robbing, pillaging and raping of the UK before they spit us out – destroyed.
Right now, we don’t need a Labour or Conservative government.
Right now, we need men of integrity and wisdom who will do the best for the people of the UK – protecting our nation, our people and creating new industry where the EU and failed UK governments have dismantled previous ones.
We need rid of degenerate, reprobate career politicians, who, like the EU, have been milking this country for decades.

mark
Reader
mark

We have paid £500 billion (£500,000,000,000) into the EU.
500 billion down the drain.
We are paying an additional £50 million every day we stay in it.
And they say they want another £40 billion off us for absolutely nothing in return.
They need to be told to go f*ck themselves.

Maggie
Reader
Maggie

Coram Dio – EXACTLY!

George cornell
Reader
George cornell

A small majority voted for Brexit, a great many of those voters failing to understand the implications and potential consequences. Much, if not most of the impetus came from the racist leanings of Middle England, who resented the Poles and Romanians taking jobs they themselves would not do. A fine stance for a country that has invaded 196 other nations. Cf. stealing the land of the Chagossians so the Americans could torture on Diego Garcia, and forcing them into penury in the slums of the Seychelles was ok. As Maynard Keynes said when confronted with – But previously you said…He replied – When the facts change, I reserve the right to change my mind. What do you do?

Now that there is more understanding, the majority wants to rescind Brexit while the racist-tinged minority hysterically oppose a second referendum in an entirely anti-democratic way.

This looks like lose-lose-lose to me. How does “Racist elements force exit from world’s largest trading block, implying rejection of the essentially anti-war ethos underpinning the EU, so as to continue their unholy alliance with the universally acknowledged greatest threat to world peace” sound to you?

Robbobbobin
Reader
Robbobbobin

“Now that there is more understanding, the majority wants to rescind Brexit while the racist-tinged minority hysterically oppose a second referendum in an entirely anti-democratic way.”

You’re not thinking clearly Mr cCornell. Now that more understanding has led to a majority wanting to rescind Brexit, what on earth are we doing proposing a costly, waste-of-time, second referendum. As the hysterically tinted racists are now a minority wanting to retain Brexit, we should Nike and forget all that divisive referenduming rerun nonsense.

tom197482
Reader

Absolutely. It is no coincidence that the people pulling the strings of the leading Brexiteers are right-wing Americans. The US wants Brexit to divide Europe and to further take over the UK. I’m amazed that people can be so gullible as to believe the Tories would be trying to implement a policy so determinedly that did not have American backing.

Rhys Jaggar
Reader
Rhys Jaggar

You really are off with the fairies.

The EU is neoliberal imperialism and is increasingly supporting every US coup and war going.

Sorry, you are neither superior nor educated. You are simply brazen and self-interested.

Some Random Passer-by
Reader
Some Random Passer-by

Sounds like bollocks!

So tired of entitled middle classes like yourself not wanting to see the truth.

Well here’s some more for you. People like you stand on the shoulders of people like me. And its bloody tempting to grab your balls and crush them.

Be prepared for unforseen circumstances!

The prediction on the big day 23/7/16

https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-remain-vote-leave-live-latest-who-will-win-results-populus-a7097261.html

Oh look! Remain to win by 10%….it didn’t, did it…

mark
Reader
mark

Like Trump’s chance of winning was 50-1 against.

mark
Reader
mark

Yes, democracy is sooooo inconvenient.
We should just get superior and splendid beings like yourself to take all the decisions for us.
This is the EU system after all.

All those “old”, “ignorant”, “bigoted”, “racist”, “uneducated”, people, all the “racist hysterical minority”, sorry majority, all 17 and a half million of them, should just be ignored, as they always have been.

Aren’t we lucky to have Superior Beings like you around?

Not sure what, if anything, this has to do with the extremely shabby and dishonest treatment of the Chagos Islanders, though. Afraid you’ve lost me there. Perhaps it takes your Superior Brain to see the connection.

Not sure what the “anti war ethos of the EU” is either. Like Gandhi’s western civilisation, it would probably be a good idea. I’m sure all the Libyans who were bombed back to the Stone Age would heartily agree with the sentiment. As would the people of the eastern Ukraine as they cowered in their basements from neo Nazi death squads, tanks, artillery, bombers and ballistic missiles, with Brussels cheering them on and sending troops and weapons to Ukraine to join in all the fun. Or the assorted EU countries sending troops to Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and everywhere else there is a war to join in all the fun and mayhem there.

Maybe we should just disenfranchise all these Deplorable People and limit the vote to the 18% of adult males over 21, and no women, who had the vote prior to WW1, presumably all Superior Beings like yourself, who are not “racist” and “ignorant.” Yes, let’s try that time honoured traditional system.

Maggie
Reader
Maggie

WELL SAID Mark, as always…

George cornell
Reader
George cornell
mark
Reader
mark

I didn’t bother reading that. Like the Guardian and the rest of the MSM Lugenpresse, the Washington Compost isn’t fit to line the bottom of my bird cage.

George cornell
Reader
George cornell

Feel better now? And now that the majority wants to rescind Brexit, you want to prevent it. Is that what you are saying? I did not say that all 17 million were racist, you did. Are you suggesting there was no racist element in that tiny majority? Living in the UK makes it abundantly clear.

You must be very young not to know what the anti-war ethos of the EU means. Are you suggesting the UK had no role in Libya, or the other countries you mention? Why is it that you are unable to make a point without turning it into some kind of personal attack? Are you so feeble at debating that it is all you got? Or just terminally arrested in development?

I did not reply to your Gates request because I have learned that debating with people who can’t be civil is unrewarding. Just like this dialogue is.

Ray Raven
Reader
Ray Raven

Ah, the higher ideal, the quality of the debate and the rewards offered by you rapier wit in that debate.
It doesn’t matter on the quality of the debate; you argument is nonsense and you’ve lost the debate (as was the referendum lost).
Mike’s got you in a squirrel grip.
So enjoy the ride, suck it up and move on, not try and overturn a decision that has not been implemented.

mark
Reader
mark

Assuming that “the majority want to rescind Brexit”, if that is the case, shouldn’t we just ignore these people anyway for being so racist, bigoted, old and uneducated.? What value can the views of such Deplorable People possibly have?
So 52% is a “tiny majority”, a difference of 4%. I’m sure that from now on, any MP, councillor or Government is going to say, “Oh no, I only got 52% of the vote. That is a tiny majority. It can’t possibly be allowed to stand. We must have another vote.”
Of course I’m not suggesting the UK had no role in Libya. We bombed the s*it out of Libya. So did EU France, and EU Italy, and EU Denmark, and countless other EU countries with their “anti war ethos” – and all the other places EU countries have bombed the s*it out of. Iraq, Afghanistan, assorted other African and Asian folks. But Bombing Brown People is good for them. Everybody knows that.

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

all the other places EU countries have bombed the s*it out of. Iraq, Afghanistan, assorted other African and Asian folks.

You forgot Yugoslavia.

But Bombing Brown People is good for them. Everybody knows that.

also Evil Russians, or Evil semi-Russians. They need to be bombed periodically, too. Otherwise they start to get funny ideas in their heads, and forget who rules the world. just like Brown People. maybe they’re not really White, or they would know better.

a bomb a day, keeps the commies away. everybody knows that.

JudyJ
Reader
JudyJ

Thought for the day, expressed by the father of one of the children slaughtered in Murino “NATO stands for New American Terrorist Army”. He’s not wrong, and that apt description will remain with me now every time I hear mention of that criminal organisation.

JudyJ
Reader
JudyJ

Sorry for the aberration. I should of course have said “New American Terrorist Organisation”.

mark
Reader
mark

Yes, sorry, M, shouldn’t forget Yugoslavia.
The old Yugoslavia was a beautiful country, and very civilised. Though it was officially “communist”, people were free to travel and work abroad, and millions did. Private enterprise was allowed within limits. You could employ up to 25 people, with larger businesses like mines and railways and car factories being state owned.
There was no need for it to fall apart in a terrible war. All its problems could have been resolved with more federalism or a peaceful break up like Czechoslovakia.
This happened to serve the interests of big business, geopolitics, gas pipelines, Camp Bondsteel, the same old story we have seen in so many other places.
The Neocon/ Blair lies were off the scale and provided a template for Iraq and elsewhere later. If anything, the lies were even more blatant. We had the non existent “100,000 Kosovans massacred.” And Srebrenica, with its “8,000 murdered Bosnians” What really happened was that Bosnian paramilitary thugs murdered 2,000 Serb civilians, who retaliated by murdering 500 Bosnians.
All thanks to Uncle Sam and the EU, with George Cornell’s famous “anti war ethos.”
So now we have the organ trafficking Kosovo Mafia Narco State, just like we have the slave markets of Cameron’s Great Libyan Democracy.

Gwyn
Reader
Gwyn

Milosevic – I echo the thanks for posting that video. Heartbreaking, indeed. The complete disregard for human life shown by the psychopaths who are behind these crimes never ceases to amaze and appal.

As one of the survivors of the bombing of the train asks: what if this happened to civilians in countries which are part of NATO? Perhaps if people in those countries went through the experience of being mercilessly bombed and having to attempt to live among the ruins caused by the attacks, they wouldn’t be quite so gung-ho about visiting such destruction on people in other countries.

Maggie
Reader
Maggie

OMG! This is one of the most heart-breaking videos I have seen..
Thank you for sharing this Milosevic, I was not ever aware….
It is clearly that the same script is used over and over.. They never tire of it.
I see that the same bastard War apologist BBC liars like Kirsty Wark were banging the war drums even then, as now on Newsnight and Hardtalk.
And even then the power crazed War Criminal Tony Bliar was grinning and spewing his evil filth,. justifying the attacks by saying that civilians were not the targets? Just like today the children aren’t the targets in Syria and Yemen…. and tomorrow in Venezuela, North Korea, China, Russia. The Real mission was -: To destroy Yugoslavia and the example of a viable alternative economic system to Western imperialism.
Perhaps this is what they have in store for Britain if we dare to elect a Socialist Prime Minister?.
For Christ’s sake WHO WILL STOP NATO?

Prior to watching this I held on to the idea that perhaps the Kirsty Warks of the MSM were perhaps just ignorant dupes prepared to read any old script just to pay the mortgage and get her kids through school….. But now realise that they are equally culpable. Because – just as I can research and learn the truth, so has she, or will have researchers to make sure she is in receipt of the facts….
I hope her two kids are proud of her, and hope that they and theirs don’t have to reap what she has sown?

JudyJ
Reader
JudyJ

“…or will have researchers to make sure she is in receipt of the facts…”.

Maggie, to be more accurate you might like to replace that with “…or will have propagandists to make sure she is in receipt of the lies…” :))

I fully relate to your frustration and ire. You are not alone.

Judy

BigB
Reader
BigB

How does “implying rejection of the essentially anti-war ethos underpinning the EU” sound to me? Very naive, George.

From the Lisbon “military Frankenstein” Treaty on, the character of the EU has markedly changed. It’s all about CDSP – a common security and defence policy. I call this the “good cop” to NATO’s “bad cop”. It’s all about civil/military neoliberal state building and rebuilding, mediation, and militarised policing of neoliberal assets. The “European External Action Service” is the EU’s foreign policy website that details the missions to Mali, Libya, Kosovo, etc.

From it, under development (as part of PESCO):

EU Eurodrone – soon to be in a sky above you
Tiger Mark 3 (EU attack helicopters) – ditto
EU ‘beyond line of site’ land battlefield missile systems
Armoured infantry fighting vehicles
Amphibious assault vehicles
Light armoured vehicles

Should all be ready for the coming EU-led war on Russia; continuing occupation of the Baltics and Balkans; military Schengen; etc.

Cyber and C4ISR (command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance)

For the ongoing cyber-war on us.

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/35285/eu-strengthens-cooperation-security-and-defence_en

George cornell
Reader
George cornell

The reply below was intended for Mark. As for the EU, I should have said underpinning the creation of the EU because that is what I meant. But Britain has been in the invasion vanguard – like Flynn, although I concede the influence of the Ameticans has not been resisted as it might have been by the EU. But the special relationship surely outranks that with the EU.

BigB
Reader
BigB

That’s the whole point, George. The ‘special relationship’ will be maintained with NATO: but also integrated and inter-operable with EU Military Unification, CDSP, CARD, EDF, etc. It seems to me – that between NATO/EU – they are developing a form of corporate autarchy – a self-sufficient state building and self-maintaining civil/military/paramilitary expansionist and protectionist union. Which will have its own Common Foreign and Security Policy …led by NATO, no doubt? NATO/EU is an integrated autarchical entity combining neoliberal hard and soft power options, and the combined largest military budget in the world …the MIC on steroids. Or maybe I’m just too cynical?

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/35285/eu-strengthens-cooperation-security-and-defence_en

Mikalina
Reader
Mikalina

Nope, not cynical – clear thinking – just as when you predicted that Lansman would turn pied piper…….. (although those recent labour joiners he calls conspiracy theorists probably will not follow him…)

milosevic
Reader
milosevic

rejection of the essentially anti-war ethos underpinning the EU, so as to continue their unholy alliance with the universally acknowledged greatest threat to world peace

Who do you think it was exactly, that invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, and bombed Yugoslavia and Libya into rubble?

Supposedly, there’s some organization called “NATO”, whose membership largely overlaps with that of the European Union — have you heard of it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia#NATO_forces

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force#Contributing_nations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq#List_of_countries_in_the_coalition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya#Forces_committed

BigB
Reader
BigB

I disagree with Kit: this is the biggest existential crisis socialism has faced in this country – ever. All the social concessions we have ever won – including the NHS – are contingent on the outcome of Brexit. A point Bill Mitchell has made since the referendum. If Labour enters voluntary suzerainty with the European Empire: there will be no progessive socialism ever in this country. With Labour’s own fiscal rule and volunteered loss of sovereignty – dutifully laid on the neoliberal altar of Maastricht – we will have limited say in our own future. When I say we, it is not all including, we refers to the elite management class of corporate captured ideologically indoctrinated bureaucrats. We will be depoliticized and have no say at all.

Our military, our foreign policy, our defence budget, fiscal sovereignty, and individual sovereignty are Being negotiated away: in our name …but without a say.

And look who is doing the negotiations …in secret, without a democratic mandate or oversight – class traitor Corbyn. British socialism is under clear and apparent existential threat from British socialism. And the champagne socialists lap it up. You really do have to have had your head wedged firmly up your own SKWAWKBOX: in cognitive deficit over the last two years to not notice the capitulation to imperialism …and now to neoliberal inequality and corporate capture. For the Few: never the Many.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=41571

vexarb
Reader
vexarb

BigB, I was in favour of Remain and Reform from Within, and I believe Corbyn was likewise. However, I think Britain’s structural and political problems are bigger than Brexit because the Labour Party has not yet rid itself of the AZC virus. The party of Corbyn is not the party of Attlee nor even the party of Wilson, it is riddled with AZC parasites so I do not see how it could restore socialism even in a Brexited Britain. The acid test for Corbyn’s authority as a Socialist PM in waiting will be the debate on the Conservative government’s Zionazi proposal to outlaw Lebanese Resistance to aggression by the AZC in Syria and by Israel in Lebanon. If the Labour Party fudge their opposition to this proposal or even go along with the proposal, then watch out for the next Labour government to outlaw even British Resistance to the AZC — Brexit or no Brexit.

BigB
Reader
BigB

Vex

I think we will get a more apposite test in the coming few days. Will JC continue to back his old mate Chris Wiiliamson – the “Jew bater” according to the AZC element? Williamson has consistently earned my respect as a man of courage and conviction. I’ve been waiting for the (Regev) orchestrated takedown. I don’t think I’ll have to wait any longer after ‘someone’ leaked footage of him speaking to a Momentum meeting.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/chris-williamson-labour-has-been-too-apologetic-about-anti-semitism-1-9618191

I think it is fair to say that actually existing socialism is socialism in name only. It is a mirror capitalism with a few social concessions thrown in. Concessions that may not even be deliverable under EU Treaty Law – if we remain in a permanent customs union – which is the basis of JC’s Quisling deal.

vexarb
Reader
vexarb

BigB, it’s crunch time, all coming together in a classice WW2 pincer movement; Chris Williamson being made to apologize same time as Parliament called to outlaw Hezb. But I think Williamson should have stood his ground re apology, and so should Corbyn re Hezb, because I believe this applause is significant of a ground swell that shows a sea change in public opinion:

_It showed Mr Williamson receiving loud applause as he complained that the party had “given too much ground” to its critics._

Read more at: https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/mp-chris-williamson-apologises-after-claiming-labour-is-too-apologetic-about-anti-semitism-1-9619334

crank
Reader
crank

It’s over.

Paul
Reader
Paul

It’s very disappointing. But it will be numbers that count and taking control of selection processes by using the vote. There is a lot of culling to be done but it’s made easier now to identify the fake Labour MP’s.

crank
Reader
crank

Nah.
The NEC suspended Williamson. There is a rotten culture of fascist appeasement throughout Labour bureaucracy, not just on the right of the PLP.
For an MP like Chris to get suspended for nothing at all is a major crossing of the rubicon into a territory of hyper McCarthy-ist madness.
For Chris to apologise is a defeat too much to bear in and of itself.
All the media friendly ‘Lefties’ nod along in sober self contradictory agreement and block anyone who dares question their illogic.
Many masks have slipped today.
The time to fight back was long ago, and now the zionist lobby have walked all over the party. The members will be angry as fuck, but what can they do? Create a whole new machine from the ground up? Quit ? Stick it out as the whole project is dismantled before their very eyes.
What a shituation..

crank
Reader
crank

Yes that will be the ultimate litmus test, for both of them.

From a media critic’s perspective I wonder how the fake left Novaran circle will respond, as they have championed Williamson for the authentic voice that he is, yet have also consistently surrendered to the narrative that ‘Labour has an antisemitism problem’.

crank
Reader
crank

Actually, check out Michael Walker’s twitter feed (Novara) for the best example I’ve read yet of how contemporary Left thinking ties itself up in knots trying to square the round peg of Jewish identity-zionism-racism.
If, as a prefessed universalist, humanist and anti-racist, you try to defend a minority whose identity is rooted in ethnocentric racism, then at some point you are just going to contradict yourself under inquiry.
Walker is more concerned about the ‘tone’ of Williamson’s comments than any factual basis, which should tell you all you need to know.

The word made flesh in ‘a people’.
Criticise the word and you criticise the people, they tell us.
Problem.

crank
Reader
crank

Corbynism was never going to build a ‘grassroots people’s party’ from the top down. Voting in a leader with a slightly Left wing voting record and campaign history was not in itself going to bring on the groundswell of populist politics, the community level organising, the actual substructure of a genuinely democratic party movement.
At the beginning lots of people looked to Momentum as a possible vehicle for trying to create this kind of change at the base. Political education, tying in community action (food banks etc.), creating a strong narrative through a coherent independent media organisation.
Some of these things were tried, but of course we know what happened.
People (rightly) make hay out of The Independent Group being a private company, but less so that Lansman’s Momentum effectively is one and has been for years.

Politics is, today, for most people, just watching television. ‘Press the red button to vote Corbyn’.

I keep speaking to people, so many of them simply recite Guardian opinion talking points, even today. Why should they listen to someone like me ?

BigB
Reader
BigB

Crank

Paulo Freire said something very similar …the liberal left always seek the quickest route back into power: without bothering to build a lasting progessive alliance from the roots …ultimately betraying socialism to the oppressors. He was right. I should have known better, but I honestly thought this time it would be different. My bad.

There is no alternative but for the people to build their own anti-imperialist, anti-neoliberal, anti-capitalist alliance for peace. As Rosa said a hundred years ago: they were only the vanguard …we are the real socialism.

crank
Reader
crank

If narrative control basically is politics in the internet age, then to reiterate the point that that should have been priority number one for a Corbyn movement, we must consider the two most obvious advocates for Corbynism in the public mind : Owen Jones and Paul Mason.
Mason tweets:
2) (How to win Remain in PV)… Leave is Putin’s plan for Britain; it harms our national security and weakens NATO…
That is the kind of messaging we see from DC Neocons.
The Left are tiny. The pseudoLeft? – much bigger.

Maggie
Reader
Maggie

@ Crank – >>(How to win Remain in PV)… Leave is Putin’s plan for Britain; it harms our national security and weakens NATO…<<
And this is what is creating panic among the MSM propagandised sheep… That and the fact that the Labour party fragmented INTO SO MANY DIFFERENT 'PARTIES' Assisted by Tom Watson & Co, all fighting against one another for the top spot.. To be honest – even my head is spinning.
When you have people like George Cornell above, stating that ''A small majority voted for Brexit, and didn't understand the implications and possible consequences. Much, if not most of the impetus came from the racist leanings of Middle England, who resented the Poles and Romanians taking jobs they themselves would not do '' it beggars belief in anything he says that follows…
I voted to Leave… I am against racism with every fibre of my body… I worked all my life supporting vulnerable and the less fortunate, including immigrants and asylum seekers regardless of race or religion. Who, given the choice would have preferred to have been able to live in their own countries instead of being driven out by the Perpetual War machine spearheaded by the US/Israel/UK/France/ Saudi AND Australia.. Working towards a Greater Israel and NWO.
I voted leave because I am sick of the constraints that the EU put upon our country. As BigB says, if we remain attached to the EU, ''There will be no Progressive Socialism ever in this country. With Labour’s own fiscal rule and volunteered loss of sovereignty – dutifully laid on the neoliberal altar of Maastricht.'' We will be in an even weaker position and be the laughing stock of Europe.
I Want us to revitalise our own businesses, and industries, particularly agriculture, instead of being subsidised to keep fields for cattle fodder. It appears that only Scotland and Wales have a dairy industry worth speaking about while our farms lie dormant, for the most part, except for the Gentleman farmer of course. The UK produces only 59% of the food it consumes. In 2010, it exported £14 billion worth of food, feed and drink, and imported £32.5 billion… The vast majority of imports and exports are with other Western European countries….
I want autonomy for my country, like Sweden, Norway, and Switzerland.
I want us to cut ties with the NATO bully boys and America, and especially Israel, who are intent on creating an EU Army to attack Russia and China using our children as their cannon fodder, and make us a target stuck in the middle of any dispute America creates https://www.rt.com/op-ed/361832-eu-army-nato-germany/
I want us to align with all the rest of the world, including Russia, China and Japan, whose economies depends on trade rather than killing innocent people to steal their resources.
I want Tony Bliar and his sidekick Campbell to be tried for War Crimes.
I actually want all the self serving capitalists jump this ship and make way for home grown talent to come through, and Government money and subsidies to be spent on them, rather than bailing out their cronies ) like Cotillion's chairman Peter Green (who was advisor to NO 10!) who used the money to give the board massive bonuses and went bankrupt anyway, walking away with the pension pot, leaving unfinished wards and theatres, and the NHS in an even deeper hole. But perhaps that was the plan all along, because that left it ripe for a buy-out by German investors.https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/sep/04/german-company-takeover-nhs-hospitals https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourbeeb/oliver-huitson/how-bbc-betrayed-nhs-exclusive-report-on-two-years-of-censorship-and-distorti.
I would like to see ALL the political parties, not just the Labour Party, fragment into small pieces so that NONE of them could ever be able to serve themselves, their relatives and friends from the hard earned money paid into Government by the Workers of this country. In fact PARTY politics should be scrapped completely and we should have a coalition. Let those interested in representing us in governent go and doorstep and listen to what the people WANT, rather than telling us what we want. The hyenas spend more time shouting and braying at one another and doing favours for the lobbyists than they have ever done for us. See ''The Lobby'' on You tube. THEY should work for a minimum wage the same as the rest of us… and if they are genuine in their desire to serve the people, they will be happy to. ALSO the Commons Bar and restaurant should be CLOSED. Why should they have subsidised drink and food, when there are thousands of people sleeping on the streets and queuing up at food banks?
Hereditary peerages should be abolished and all those sleeping in the House of Lords should lose that day's pay.
Lastly, Jeremy Corbyn should STOP pandering to all the Israeli apologists and their smearing anti semetism
and racism, and all the pathetic shower who clearly have been compromised, and should have been laughed at. And get on with the job in hand. Making plans to re build our country after Brexit that a MAJORITY voted for……

Some Random Passer-by
Reader
Some Random Passer-by

Duterte has the solution. It’s simple and its elegant.

Throw out all politicians. Get the brightest and best youngsters to replace them.

“If you become corrupt, we will put a bullet between your eyes. If you remain clean, and do well for the country, we will increase your salary yearly as a reward”

Apparently the guy has a law degree…

mark
Reader
mark

Start with all the Friends of Israel.

crank
Reader
crank

Lastly, Jeremy Corbyn should STOP pandering to all the Israeli apologists and their smearing anti semetism
I would say that should be top of your list.
As Chris Williamson faces the wrath of the zionism enforcement arm of the Labour Party (and its extensions in the media world) for daring to share just a smidgen of truth about the falsity of these smears, I pass on this article linked to me in a previous forum:
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Love_Labours.htm
It’s time that all principled anti-racists realised what is taking place here.

DunGroanin
Reader
DunGroanin

Crank your claim that Mason and Jones are in anyway Corbynites is as wrong. Both have been outed as part of the controlled opposition cadre.

Anyone still taken in by their flip-floppyness over the Corbyn Labour party need a visit to the opticians.

crank
Reader
crank

Key words are ‘in the public mind’.

James Connolly
Reader
James Connolly

The logic of this backing for a 2nd referendum is difficult to interpret on many levels. Even if Corbyn genuinely wants one, it is not in his gift. Barely a quarter of Labour MPs want one (despite what the liberal media claim) and even if all Labour MPs voted for the amendment it would still require lots of Tory MPs to vote with them, which certainly won’t happen.
So there isn’t going to be a 2nd referendum. All the attempt to get one will achieve is to antagonize voters in the 65% of Labour seats that voted to Leave. Nor will it appease the PLP, aka the Labour Right. As you rightly say Kit, stopping Brexit is not their priority. Their priority is stopping Corbyn, by whatever means.

Here is an excellent analysis of the role of the Labour Right in British society..
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jeremy-gilbert/inevitable-division-politics-and-consequences-of-labour-split?fbclid=IwAR18MgjQnGXzy-bY5HZqF5Z8VwTrskKsOWkZgIBetFS6CJQt5eShFTzJSx8

Maggie
Reader
Maggie

I see you’ve picked up your information from the Conservative owned YouGov?
Fact – The Majority voted to LEAVE the bureaucratic control of an oppressive regime, which was bleeding us financially and imposing laws upon us which we had never voted for, wanted to escape.
Those voting to REMAIN were the career politicians, who wanted EU pensions etc, the dreamers, who thought a ‘forced marriage’ would bring us together (although after 50 years, we still have separate languages and need translators) and the sheep, who wanted to huddle together for protection FROM THE BIG BAD RED WOLF.
Ffs put another record on…

lundiel
Reader

What an excellent article. It verbalises what I haven’t been able to.
“It is clearly absurd, in objective historical terms, to blame Corbyn for Brexit, or to keep demanding that he ‘come out’ against it when his doing so would make no difference at all to the parliamentary reality (there is no majority in the house of commons for a people’s vote). But the members of this declining, delegitimated social elite have experienced both Brexit and Corbynism as part of exactly the same process; the process by which the people that they have governed and managed for a generation have turned around and rejected their authority and their world-view. Embracing the idea that Labour is institutionally antisemitic and racist, and that Brexit is Corbyn’s fault, are understandable psychosocial responses to the experience of this historical trauma. Such a response allows the members and partisans of this elite to tell themselves that they are defenders of liberal values, so that they do not have to face up to the fact that, in opposing Corbyn, they are defending nothing but their own sectional privileges and those of their corporate liege lords. What these stories are not is rational, descriptive accounts of any kind of objective social reality, that can be reasoned with politically or morally.

This is the reason for the Orwellian illiberalism practiced by ‘liberals’.

Seamus Padraig
Reader
Seamus Padraig

Brilliantly put, lundiel!

Lochearn
Reader
Lochearn

I wonder how many of you, including the writer, have seriously studied what is involved with Brexit. It is hugely complicated and probably beyond PHD level. Have any of you read through the considerable number of articles and comments at Naked Capitalism, for example? Yves Smith was right about Greece when she said that the EU held all the cards. Maybe she’s right about Brexit too. Have you watched 3 Blokes in a Pub talking Brexit, where one is an experienced trade negotiator? Here’s a flavour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sju9laLqeCo&t=2969s

It’s one thing to dislike the EU and recognize it as a neoliberal vassal of the US. But it’s another to assume that leaving it is economically viable for the UK without having done some serious preparation over years. Have any of you thought where the money is going to come from if Corbyn is elected in a no-deal scenario? What with Toyota, Honda and Airbus gone? And many others to follow.

Have any of you considered why part of the elites are so gung-ho about Brexit when their cash cow the City of London stands to lose a significant amount of business? We should recall that Cameron decided on a referendum a few days after the EU tax-avoidance regulations were being put forward for approval. Does this have anything to do with it? Could it be that the Right see an opportunity with Brexit to take away the few employment rights we have and reduce us to a state of absolute penury? How can we be on the same side as Jacob Rees-Mogg, Johnson and Farage? Something doesn’t add up.

BigB
Reader
BigB

Yes is the answer. Read Bill Mitchell and Thomas Fazi’s “Reclaiming the State” for the answers. Fiscal and currency sovereignty are the keys to progessive socialism. What we want to finance is up to us, within reason (provided it provides employment …the Job Pledge being a key ingredient).

As to the chaos: that has been weaponised against us. You may have heard of “iatrogenic disease” – physician created ill-health for profit – we have seen the bureaucratic version of intentional chaos.

Though it will be brutal: no deal is still the best deal. Or we delay A50 in the hope the EU collapses. Neither is a good option …only don’t blame me: blame the bureaucracy on both sides of the channel. They have deliberately squandered our options in complete disdain for democratic sovereignty.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=36746

See blogpost above for details of no deal being the best deal.

Mr Shigemitsu
Reader
Mr Shigemitsu

@BigB,

If you are a follower of Bill Mitchell’s blog, you will also doubtless be aware from past articles that JMcD has no expressed intention whatsoever of acknowledging MMT, but, on the contrary, if elected, plans on maintaining neoliberal, govt-as-household narratives regarding budget deficits, and ‘taxation funds govt spending’ myths.

It’s unclear where any salvation lies.

BigB
Reader
BigB

Mr Shigemitsu

That’s Labour’s “fiscal rule” that is enshrined in the smallprint of the manifesto (if I remember correctly). When the tax return capital runs dry, rather than deficit spend, they will cease to spend. I call them deficit dummies – because they have been browbeaten by the Tories into accepting the logic of austerity.

As an aside: McDonnell and JC signed an Early Day Motion for a return to the “Bradbury Pound” – which was sovereign debt free currency issued to fund WW1. Now they are both fully “pro-business”, pro-EU, neoliberal acolytes. The only thing they want to inflate is the minority’s assets.

I can only concur with your closing remark – it is hard to see… I’m still actively looking though..

Steve Cooke
Reader
Steve Cooke

This is actually the best play from a bad hand. Do nothing and May presents Parliament with her take it or leave it Brexit deal. This means Labour are cursed if do or complicit in running the UK off a cliff if they don’t. The Government and Parliament are dysfunctional and Labour returning power to the people (here Labour members) means Labour choose a bitter pill of their own design rather than sup from the Tory poisoned chalice

James Graham
Reader

Corbyn has shared a platform with FSA head choppers. He supports the Stop the War Coalition, who support the Muslim Brotherhood in Britain. He’s condemned Assad in the HOC, claiming he used chemical weapons and has a terrible human rights record. He lets regime change interventionist Alison McGovern spout her anti-Assad lies and propaganda in the HOC.

The Syrians do not want to know that creep…and he only has one vote which is zero consolation.

Labour are leading with “For the many, not the few” on their website. Will a Corbyn Government reject “not the few?” (The ruling class) Will they refuse “not the few?” Will they ignore and abandon “not the few?” Never.

British Governments are Imperialist Governments through and through. Will Corbyn break off “the special military relationship” with the US Imperialists? Never. Will they leave NATO or stop voting for the US at the UN? Never.

At home a British Government will bury their horrific human rights record overseas and issue assorted sugar coated pills to keep the public sweet and quiet on the domestic front.

It will be business as usual, a failing economy, austerity and food banks. And that is if they are lucky and the economy doesn’t go through the floorboards in the Autumn.

I see no evidence to suggest a Corbyn Government will be capable of doing a fraction of what their groupies say they will do.