Sarin in Syria: chemistry, and cui bono?
Philip Roddis
The exchange below took place a few days ago, below the line of an OffGuardian piece on the corruption of the UN’s Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) as shown in its handling of last year’s Douma incident.
Louis Proyect is one of many on the marxist left I think dead wrong on Syria – see my post from last year on Workers’ Power. He professes bafflement that marxists could defend evil Assad.
Me, I’m baffled that any marxist could buy, on such negligible evidential basis, the demonising of a third world leader who stands in the way of imperialist powers with multiple motives (oil pipeline, privatisation, Golan theft, hurting Iran and Russia) for crushing Ba’athism – and with a record as long as your arm of lying at every turn as to the why of it.
Moving on, Proyect claims – I’ve heard the Guardian’s George Monbiot do the same – that sarin is hard to manufacture; certainly beyond the capacity of Islamist groups working to bring down Assad. Since neither Proyect not Monbiot are experts, I’ll turn to those who are.
Let none accuse me of cherry picking. This piece, from Wired two years ago, is vehemently of the view that Assad does have sarin, and does use it.
[Sarin] is not especially hard to produce, in terms of both resources and expertise. “A competent chemist could make it, and possibly very quickly, in a matter of days,” says John Gilbert, a senior science fellow at the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation, who spent much of his Air Force career assessing countries’ WMD capabilities. Producing sarin doesn’t require any kind of massive facility; a roughly 200 square foot room would do.
Author Brian Barrett, eager to make the case that Damascus could have rebuilt sarin stockpiles after the OPCW oversaw their destruction in 2014, inadvertently blows Proyect’s and Monbiot’s argument clean out of the water!
We should also note the Tokyo subway attack of March 20, 1995. Perps? Aum Shinrikyo, a bunch of doomsday wingnuts originating as a yoga and meditation group devoted to a mishmash of deities with Hindu deity Shiva – the destroyer – in overall charge and channelled through head wacko Shoko Asahara. Says wiki:
Tsuchiya [a member] had established a small laboratory in Kamikuishiki in 1992. After initial research (at Tsukuba University, where he had studied chemistry) he suggested to Hideo Murai – a senior Aum advisor who had tasked him with researching chemical weapons, out of fear the cult would soon be attacked with them – that the most cost-effective substance to synthesise would be sarin.
He was ordered to produce a small amount – within a month, the necessary equipment had been ordered and installed, and 10-20g of sarin produced via synthetic procedures derived from the five-step DHMP process as originally described by IG Farben in 1938, and as used by the Allies after World War II.
Murai then ordered Tsuchiya to produce 70 tons. When Tsuchiya protested that this was not feasible in a research laboratory, a chemical plant was ordered to be built alongside the biological production facility in the Fujigamine district of Kamikuishiki, to be labelled Satyan-7 (‘Truth’). The equipment and substantial chemicals were purchased using shell companies under Hasegawa Chemical, already owned by Aum. At the same time, in 1993, cult members travelled to Australia, bringing generators, tools, protective equipment (including gas masks and respirators), and chemicals to make sarin.
Are we seriously to suppose the ‘moderate Islamists’ operating in Syria with barely hidden aid from Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and – not least through the likes of White Helmets – the West are less resourceful than this bunch of millennial crazies?
It amazes me, perhaps because I still deem them deluded but sincere, that so many fail to see that on Syria, and much besides, we are being lied to on a monumental scale and will continue to be so lied to until we wake up and demand the truth.
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Meanwhile from the real world where one breathes a purer air, comes a letter of appreciation to Syria. Note who signed it:
“I recently traveled across Syria and met with Members of Parliament and with President Assad. The Syrian people I encountered are joyous at the expulsion of the terrorist armies and at the restoration of law and order. They often volunteered that they had great affection for President Assad. The Syrian government has devoted great effort to rebuilding Christian churches and mosques that were destroyed by the terrorists.
I last visited Syria in 2016, and Syria was then under pressure from Western-backed terrorists on every side. Today, there is excellent security, and I was able to drive unhindered from Damascus to Aleppo. Syrians are tirelessly rebuilding the country and 1.5 million refugees have already returned home to Syria. The war would have ended by now had the U.S. and U.K. not thrown their full diplomatic and military weight behind al Nusra and ISIS in Idlib Province. We claim that we’re concerned about protecting civilians, but people of Idlib don’t want to live under violent tyranny any more than people did in Aleppo. I pray that all Syrian people will soon be free. May God bless the Syrian Arab Army and its allies.
Senator Richard H. Black
13th District, Virginia”
Thank you for submitting this letter from Senator Richard H.Black .It provides hope for many of us that all is not lost in our Western society.
Cheers.
Checking in to see if anybody can document Syrian rebels using sarin gas against Assad’s military. I can’t go through all the comments that seem to be the standard stuff about how the dastardly Zionist, CIA, Trotskyites are behind the conspiracy to destroy the Middle East’s only true democracy but in the outside chance that a critical-minded soul wandered into this conspiracy-mongering, anti-Marxist cauldron, this might help you understand the class dynamics of what took place in Syria:
https://louisproyect.org/2016/12/14/the-economic-roots-of-the-syrian-revolution/
Bye-bye for now.
You need to go to Specsavers for that myopia mate. Pre-assuming what you aim to deduce and reframing the discussion to fit your own little reality as a methodology of refusing to engage with the questions put ‘aint impressing the grown up’s here.
Those of us who inhabit the reality based community have encountered all this anti scientific approach too often in the past – almost exclusively from those of the Karl Rove persuasion like yourself who simply avoid the awkward questions by talking about stuff no one has claimed and hoping no one notices.
You stick to clutching your comfort blanket with your thumb up your bum and your brain in neutral in the corner of the playground if it’s too hard for you.
“Bye-bye for now.”
Only “for now”?
Let us make this really clear, for you Louis: the war in Syria between the government and sundry jihadi mercenary militias sponsored and supplied by the imperialist powers, most notably the United States and the UK and their allies in the Gulf, including both Qatar and Saudi Arabia, was part of a notorious strategy, to control the Middle East.
Your opinion, it would seem, is that the involvement of Al Qaeda, Israel, supplying inter alia field hospitals, MI6 and the CIA is part of a concerted effort by the NATO powers to protect a proletarian revolution against Assad and the Syrian bourgeoisie.
That is what NATO is all about: protecting working class militants and their attempts to seize power and transform society from reactionary bourgeois regimes such as the Baath in Syria.
Readers will recall, that to your applause and with the support of Professor Achcar the same forces-headed up by your colleagues BH Levy and (don’t be shy!) Hillary Clinton-rushed into Libya on the same pretext: to preserve a revolution against a dictatorship.
Now, Louis, tell us what is happening in Venezuela ? Are the Lima group attempting to assist in the liberation of the working class there from a dictatorship? Is that what is behind the attacks on Iran, too? Has the Empire, in its last attempts to achieve hegemony, ‘gone straight’ and thrown in its forces with the masses?
If I could I would give you thousands of thumbs up .You do have a sharp mind and a wonderful way of expression.But don’t expect any logical response from Louis.
Cheers.
I would say that it is possible that the Jihadi’s supplies of sarin gas was limited. If there isn’t enough gas to change the course of the war militarily, you might try to use strategically to enable foreign intervention.
Ask Carla del Ponte. She’ll provide you with all the documentation you need.
Or ask the Turkish police who caught your cannibal throat slitter chums red handed with canisters of sarin.
Roland Dumas, former French Foreign minister, in French TV debate, provides very succinctly accusations for the cause of the Syria conflict : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeyRwFHR8WY.
Thanks for the link, H. It reminds me of the lone voice of Alexander Nekrassov when he has been invited to participate in the weekly BBC Dateline topical panel discussions. Such individuals are there just to be patronised and made out to be fools. The other panellists in your link adopt the same smirks as the ones on Dateline. They clearly think that being smug wins the argument. As with Dateline, they are unable to refute the observations; they are beyond the point where they think that is necessary, or that it is necessary that they themselves provide evidence to back up their own parroted contentions.
What possible reason would he have to lie.I am presently reading the latest book by Thierry Meyssan’s book “Right before our Eyes ” .Very enlightening indeed and would recommend it to anyone wanting to know the French angle in Syria.
What is wrong with the picture heading this article? Not one of these people are suffering from noxious fume inhalation.
Why are there other people standing around, totally un concerned? They would be attending to those who were ‘injured’ if there were any.. They are all crisis actors. This is a false flag drill…..
The photo is designed to make the sheep gasp in terror.
Let’s imagine that a sarin attack has occurred underground. Some people make it out above ground where they cough and try to get a grip on their experience.
Other people who were already above ground – perhaps were never below ground – are viewing the secene.
A policeman is giving aid or advice to someone.
That’s what the photograph is. Maybe you were expecting a more Hollywood style chaos.
If it’s a set-up, it’s pretty piss poor, wouldn’t you say ?
I’d sack the bloke with his arms folded for a start. He’s useless at hysteria.
What to make of this?
“In an interview with Alternet.org, the independent investigative reporter Seymour Hersh was asked about Hillary Clinton’s role in the Benghazi Libya consulate’s operation to collect sarin from Libyan stockpiles and send it through Turkey into Syria for a set-up sarin-gas attack, to be blamed on Assad in order to ‘justify’ the US invading Syria, as it had invaded Libya.”
https://www.mintpressnews.com/215993-2/215993/
Thank you for the link.To go further into this,Christof Lehmann certainly needs a mention.
https://archive.is/SVm5p
I haven’t got time to read all the comments: but if no one has done already – anyone requiring evidence (such as Louis) – need only visit Tim Hayward’s blog. Among the Working Groups analysis of any alleged chemical weapons abuses by Assad: are a series of guest blogs by Professor Paul McKeigue. After detailing how we can realistically, if subjectively, assess a mound of conflicting evidence (using Bayesian Calculus for the mathematically minded (If it was good enough for Turing to assign to ‘Ultra’ codebreaking – it’s good enough for me)). He then turns his attention to the alleged sarin attack at Ghouta (2013).
The question is raised: if ‘President Gassad’ deployed sarin on residents of Damascus – why did one of the victims (designated ‘M-015’) slit his own throat in Kafr Batna morgue? To make a point?
https://timhayward.wordpress.com/2017/08/31/who-is-responsible-for-chemical-attacks-in-syria-guest-blog-by-professor-paul-mckeigue-part-2/
The imperialist narrative Proyect prefers is refuted: but a more sinister narrative appears. The victims of these attacks are real. And they really are dead: even the one that survived the original gas attack (M-015). There were around 85 men, women, and children in the ‘Sun Morgue’: how did they die? Sarin? Or something much darker and more sinister?
https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/08/murder-in-the-sunmorgue/murder-in-the-sunmorgue.pdf
This is a detailed report into the same alleged sarin attack: that proposes that the victims were murdered in the ‘Dark Morgue’ before being laid out upstairs in the ‘Sun Morgue’. Which is more consistent than one of the victims surviving: only to slit his own throat (some of the other victims have their throats covered: which has sinister implications in the light of M-015’s murder).
Even if you do not go for this: you still have to answer the question of why M-015 was killed after surviving the gas attack. And why the concerned and benevolent rescuers – and presumably medics – walked unconcernedly past someone who was clutching his t-shirt, whilst bleeding profusely from the neck. Corpses do not do that.
On the one hand: we have Eliot Higgins and Proyect pushing the imperial narrative. On the other: I give you Paul McKeigue and Denis R O’Brien: with a narrative of murder for mass propaganda. Add in Ted Postol; the ‘Indicter’; Professor Marcello Ferrada de Noli; Mother Mariam; etc …and all the other ‘Assad apologists’ …I’m confident that I know what is going on in Syria. If anyone like Louis wants to refute that: let’s start with victim ‘M-015’. He did not kill himself. He was murdered for a ‘red line’ false flag. Murders that Proyect is an apologist for.
You nailed it in one comment BigB. I was telling a couple leftist friends years ago what was happening in Syria, and who was supporting, funding and arming the ‘moderate rebel freedom fighters’ Aka jihadist headchoppers; and their response was pretty similar to Louis P. They read The Guardian and other ‘liberal’ media here in Australia.
As for the false flag chemical weapons attacks, these same people I know were highly sceptical of journalists like Vanessa Beeley and Eva Bartlett and even Robert Fisk after he visited Ghouta himself.
The mainstream media are fully complicit in massive numbers of deaths, false flags, the destruction of entire countries, the promotion of such creations as the White Helmets, the promotion of ‘R2P’ aka Imperialism, and whoring themselves for the 0.01℅. These people are complicit in war crimes as well.
As most things CUI PODESTA (BONO) never gets looked at with all these imperial aggressive methods on the rest of the world.
Louis Proyect. Fake Marxist. Well known NYC anglo-zionist Trotskyist. Sell out like most of so called left wing western shills. We In Napoli know the type well. Famous Gramsci quote,”Troskyist are the hores of the fascist.” Considering the origins of the Assad family and their political leanings hence being one of the most left wing governments in the ME his father was one of the original Bathist Arab nationalist like Nasser and co. But why let little facts blur the illusion of pax-americana and their pseudo Marxist denigrating any one whom stands in the way of the Imperial court coming from London,Paris or Washington.
POAT SCRIPTUM: QUI TACET CONSENTIR VIDETUR
It’s a bit misleading to label the third-campist ‘state caps’, et al. ‘Trotskyite’, despite these groups labelling themselves that. As most here likely know, Trotsky’s last major political battle was exactly with those who would no longer defend the USSR (Burnham and Shachtman) and wanted to dress up their capitulation to liberal hysteria over the Hitler-Stalin pact as the USSR being ‘bureaucratic collectivist’. If he were still alive, the likes of Cliff et al. would never have been Trotsky’s followers because he would have been pilloring them at every opportunity.
Now, Proyect. I think one key to his stubborn refusal to acknowledge overwhelming empirical evidence or mount a coherent argument around the Syrian situation is that he has a bit of a cult following. If you look at this exchange I had with him about the details of the various OPCW Douma reports, suppressed and official, you’ll see he had a lot fanboys jumping in with ad hominem attacks against anyone who questioned the pronouncements of their leader. A textbook bubble.
https://louisproyect.org/2019/06/01/was-the-douma-chlorine-gas-attack-a-false-flag/
Stephen I’ve followed with considerable interest your exchanges with Louis Proyect. I note that the man does not rely entirely on the rottweiler ad hominems that make his style so repulsive. (And this from a man who invokes the notion – already problematic for a Marxist and hence (a) materialist and (b) anti-imperialist- of Enlightenment Values!)
He also makes use of non sequitur, childish logic, guilt by association, misrepresentation and arguments plausible enough to convince the lazy and/or credulous – as well as the closed of mind. (Though to be fair there’s plenty of that last on all sides, a point I’ll return to in a moment.)
I applaud your calm, factually grounded and logically coherent responses in the face of a mix of speciousness and aggression, not just from Louis but his admirers too.
I concur with your assessment of Assad – summed up by the very Trotskyist term, Bonapartist. One drearily predictable consequence of so polarised a situation as the imperialist predation on Syria begets is an oversimplifed picture. Not all who refuse to buy so transparently empire serving a narrative on Assad are willing to embrace his sainthood. In any case there’s too much we can’t at this stage know.
But here too Trotsky is useful. Of late, by which I mean these last twenty years, his formulation of “critical but unconditional defence” has never seemed more pertinent and useful. I’d like to write a slightly longer piece, drawing heavily on your exchanges with LP. Would you object?
Also, I’d like to communicate with you more directly than BTL comment permits. If you feel inclined, you could make a brief comment on one of my blog posts, linked from my profile, above. I’d then have your email address and you’d soon have mine.
In any event, thanks for your valuable input.
I can’t say I’ve heard of quite the formulation, ‘critical but unconditional defense’. Anyway, Trotsky used the term ‘unconditional defense’ in reference to external military attacks or internal counterrevolution against the USSR. He placed no conditions on that (eg, whether Stalin signed a non-aggression pact with Hitler or not; whether he killed/purged millions; ate babies). What mattered was that the USSR was a workers state (degenerated), and this gain needed to be defended against capitalist imperialism. The state caps and third campists all placed a condition on defending the USSR: that the Stalinist bureaucracy not offend the ‘morals’ and ‘democratic’ sensibilities of the imperialists. This is what impelled them to erect their anti-Marxist theories of a ‘new class’ society, as a cover for their pro-imperialism and anti-communism.
This is different in the situations where the conflict doesn’t involve a workers state. Then one must examine the role of any imperialist powers in the conflict. All things being equal, if some non-imperialist country is in conflict with another, where otherwise Marxists wouldn’t take a side, but instead an imperialist power sided with one, then Marxists would side militarily with the country fighting the one in alliance with the imperial overlord. If both have an imperial overlord, then again Marxists would take no side. If there were two non-imperialist countries at war and neither had an imperialist overlord, but the outcome would advance or retard the prospects of socialist revolution, then Marxists would take a side. In short, this is all very conditional. Nothing is unconditional in these considerations.
Proyect cut off the exchange with him by closing access to the comments section so he could have the last word. My (unseen) reply to his ‘last word’ was:
“The report you cite has nothing at all to say about ‘class struggle’. It summarises the implementation of necessarily vicious neoliberal economic policies by Assad; the migration of people from the countryside to the cities, driven there by severe drought; and it reports on the jockeying of various factions of the ruling class of which the Assad clan is an integral part. Your own rendition of this is more edifying, but class struggle still isn’t there.
“It’s rather difficult to mention or discuss actual working class struggle in Syria when there’s virtually none, when the population of ~21 million comprises only ~4 million workers with a ~20% unemployment rate. The economy has been wrecked not only by the civil war but by crippling sanctions imposed by the imperialists. The Syrian organised working class, such as it’s permitted to exist, is playing no independent role in this mess.
“However, the notion that the Syrian civil war is a ‘revolution’, or represents ‘class struggle’ is a ludicrous, reactionary fantasy. The Syrian civil war is a communalist bloodbath fueled by the imperialists who’ve chosen a side, the Salafists, al-Nusra, etc, as part of their aim of ‘regime change’. To tart this up as something akin to the Spanish Civil War is a disgrace and only serves as a cover for supporting US imperialism’s Syrian regime-change efforts.”
By all means use the material there for a more detailed article. I don’t claim any copyright or IP.
I’ll be in touch at some point.
Thanks Stephen. I’m juggling tasks and unfulfilled promises, as always with my writing, but will pen an assessment of LP as soon as I can.
Re the extension of “critical but unconditional defence of the Soviet Union’ to other struggles against imperialism – in this case by imperialised nations – I can’t be sure Trotsky advocated this. Some groups on Trotskyite left – including IS/SWP up to the Birmingham Pub Bombings – did so extend it: most markedly in relation to the Provisional IRA, an organisation far more challenging to defend, for British socialists, than the USSR.
Hi Philip,
Getting into some weeds here.
We know that Trotsky advocated supporting the struggle of oppressed nations against the imperialist and colonial yoke, in line with Lenin’s attitude to the national question (as in Proyect’s ‘gotcha’ example of Algeria).
I don’t know of examples where Trotsky denounced indefensible acts of indiscriminate terror against innocent people carried out by those struggling for an otherwise just cause, as in something analogous to the IRA’s Birmingham pub bombings. There may be examples, but I’m not aware of them, and I’d be extremely surprised if he defended any acts of indiscriminate terror. The IRA committed many indefensible terrorist acts (pub bombings) but also defensible ones (eg, when taking on the UDF, etc). The IRA are a bourgeois nationalist formation.
My understanding of the logic of Trotsky’s position, again in line with Lenin’s on the national question, was that struggle by the oppressed nation against the forces of the imperialist power was defensible regardless of whether it was led by ‘progressive’ or reactionary bourgeois nationalists. If it enlisted the help of a rival imperial power (not just supplying arms which is neither here nor there, but in a military alliance), or as occurred in WWI vis-a-vis colonial possessions of the two imperialist camps in the war, then revolutionary Marxists take no side in the conflict.
However, to both Trotsky and Lenin, terrorism in general, whether discriminate (ie, directed against the imperial power’s military or political hierarchy) or indiscriminate (directed against innocent people) was ‘liberalism under the gun’ and ultimately a counterproductive strategy to be counterposed with one of proletarian revolution.
So, I think supporting or defending national liberation struggles was conditional on whether this support/defense furthered or hindered world revolution. In contrast, defending the USSR militarily was formulated as ‘unconditional’ because not to do so always betrayed the revolutionary cause by failing to oppose imperialist or internal efforts at counterrevolution in the USSR.
For the same reason, Trotskyists and Marxists were on the side of the USSR militarily in WWII despite one gang of imperialists also being on the same side and providing some (relatively) minor material support to it. And even if the USSR’s military hypothetically were fighting side by side with one imperialist side against the other, Marxists would still defend it.
The Trotskyists in WWII took no side on US/UK vs. Nazi Germany or Japan, despite Cannon and Trotsky’s opportunist ‘Proletarian Military Policy’ (another discussion); but sided with the USSR against Germany and would have sided with the USSR against Japan if Truman didn’t stop that happening by A-bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I don’t know if this makes things any clearer, though.
I think, by carefully proceeding and readiness to question all our beliefs, we do make things clearer. We are in agreement on much, and your final reply to Proyect – so typical of his style that he would not publish it – is admirable.
Was the provisional IRA a bourgeois nationalist group? Undoubtedly. Were they fighting imperialist domination? Same answer. Do we pick and choose between ‘defensible’ and ‘indefensible’ Provo acts? I find that a tougher call. As a bourgeois nationalist group (with left and right factions) all of their acts had the same defects. Ditto Sinn Fein’s, the two representing a dialectic – Armalite and Ballot Box – playing out for decades in the context of Ireland.
The question at the time was whether criticism or defence of individual acts – as opposed to critical but unconditional defence of the Provos as a whole – helped or hindered not just a working class doubly oppressed, but the cause of a united Ireland free of British rule. At the time, I and my group took the view, which I’m willing to reexamine, that a la carte criticism played into the hands of British rule. We’d note, for instance, that the decision to take the fight to the British Mainland was driven largely by recognition that bombs in Belfast and Derry had far less impact than bombs in Birmingham and Guildford. And that in any case, both the Armalite and the Ballot Box – however used – represented the limitations of nationalist struggle.
I’m neither defending nor criticising those acts now. It’s a long time since I thought about this question. But I still have the niggling thought that “discriminate” and “indiscriminate” terror aren’t neatly separable categories.
On the defence of the USSR, I of course agree entirely.
One doesn’t need to be a Marxist to understand what’s going in Syria. People on the right and centre can equally see what’s really occurring there. Trotskyists and Bolsheviks claiming virtue in such matters is hypocritical of them to say the least, the 20th century was littered with countless tens of millions of victims of their political games and their own empires.
“… the 20th century was littered with countless tens of millions of victims of their political games and their own empires.”
It must feel good to get that old anti-communist chestnut off your chest. The bad news is that there isn’t any money in it any longer.
Let’s be reasonable: the deaths that you are talking about came either from wars- and in every one of them the Communists were fighting in self defence against imperialist and fascist attacks. Or from famines. And most of these were caused by trade sanctions and deliberate attempts to starve people cheeky enough to try and organise their economies and societies in non capitalist systems.
Even those deaths that came from purges such as those carried out by Stalin, had their origins in the constant pressures of containment by imperialists. Pressures that included the organisation of guerrilla armies (eastern Europe post 1944) and the deliberate introduction of animal and plant diseases to discredit socialist governments.
Take a look at what is being done to Venezuela and Iran today, where people deprived of the chance to purchase food and medicine are dying and you will see what the Communist states had to deal with, throughout their existences.
Now apply that same logic to Jewish deaths in WW2 when Germany’s infrastructure was destroyed, and food and medicine were in short supply.
Oh, wait, you can’t, because it is immoral, and illegal in some jurisdictions, to do that.
I’d have thought that the experience of the last 30 years would be enough to adequately demonstrate the difference between a political ideology and its specific implementation in the context of a particular state or culture. Put simply, a lot of what we associate with ‘communism’ is really ‘Russianism’ — you can not only see correlations between actions during the Stalinist era and Tsarist times but also between later communist Russia and today’s Russia (the latter being why Cold War II seems to be such an easy sell). What this has to do with a 19th century economic theory derived from Enlightenment era thought is anyone’s guess (if you’re going to blame anyone then you should at least call it “Leninism” or something!).
The same processes can be used to parallel thought in dissimilar countries during the same period. Its common practice to use the bait and switch of comparing, for example, 1930s Germany with contemporary Britain or the US. Most people don’t remember what it was like ‘back then’, what people thought, how they felt, how social attitudes shaped society’s responses to challenges. Instead they adopt something closer to a modern movie treatment (e.g. confusing Nazi Germany with Inglorious Bastards).
One particularly egregious mental sin,is to conflate the Soviet Union with Nazi Germany and to refer to the USSR as an ’empire’. Anyone who has the slightest knowledge of that period’s history will know that the two societies had nothing in common. These notions are a product of 1980’s Reagan era propaganda; I remember when they were first floated and thought ‘surely nobody’s going to be taken in by this?’. Obviously, I was wrong — it turned out to be a very successful propaganda coup.
“… says John Gilbert, a senior science fellow at the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation, who spent much of his Air Force career assessing countries’ WMD capabilities.”
From whose website (CACNP) I gather: “beginning in 1988. He established the chemical and biological operations division … (now part of the Defense Threat Reduction Agency), and was a member of U.S. national Chemical Weapons delegations and negotiating teams in Geneva, The Hague, and Moscow. He has trained several hundred arms control inspectors for the United States, including those conducting missile, nuclear, and chemical inspections, biological weapon fact-finding visits, and other operations.”
So John Gilbert must have been around when Shrub Bush and Tony B.Liar were thrilling the world with horror stories about Iraq’s completely non-existent WMD. What did he say at the time?
The time when both Dr.David Kelly (RIP) MI6 Weapons Expert, and Scott Ritter, Chief UN Weapons Inspector were fired and publicly disgraced for telling the truth.
That time, what did John Gilbert say?
No idea what he said. It’s not relevant. His name came up in a narrowly specific context – “is saring hard or easy to make?” – and that’s the long and short of it.
All that I can say is that “John Gilbert” doesn’t exist on the Internet outside of this current role. The only available information originates from one source:
https://armscontrolcenter.org/about/meet-our-experts/#JGilbert
Somewhat spooky career.
@Philip. Yes; and I noticed his reply was as ambiguous as a Delphic oracle. “All you need is a room of a certain size”. Which is why I looked him up. I presume his view on Iraq’s WMD was equally Delphic, unlike the plain “None!” of experts Dr.Kelly (RIP) and Scott Ritter whose careers were abruptly terminated.
Hi vexarb. Not sure where this is going. I say Gilbert’s political views, and any putative lack of moral courage, are beside the point. Barret quoted him to make an anti Assad point whose effect is to undermine Louis Proyect’s anti Assad point. Igor, for reasons beyond me, suggests he has a ‘spooky career’, while the link he supplies suggests a minor expert of little interest outside his discipline until many commentators, within and without MSM, picked up on his claim of sarin being easy to make.
To be clear are you (and Igor too if reading) saying sarin is hard to make? If so, Gilbert is not the only expert you need to counter – besides the Aum Shinrikyo attack, there’s this from New Scientist:
If not, what are you saying? I’m used to dealing on occasion with non too bright people who take my citing an authority, to make a narrow but pertinent point, as wider endorsement of that person. (For instance I often cite Goering’s quote at Nuremburg, re the ease of getting people to fight their leaders’ wars, but am not a huge fan of the man.)
But I know from other comments you make that you are an astute commenter. Am I missing something here? It has been known!
Damn. The only link I intended is to a New Scientist piece of Match 25, 1995 – days after the Tokyo attack. It’s not important. Do a search on “is sarin
hard to make”.
@Philip: “I say Gilbert’s political views, and any putative lack of moral courage, are beside the point.”
And I say any Oxy-Moron Military Intelligence Expert’s “lack of moral courage” is not only highly relevant but entirely to the point when it comes to assessing any public pronouncement from such a source. What such an Oxy-Moron Military Intelligence mouthpiece says is less important than what authority assigned him to say it — and so on up the chain of command.
I have not read your article because, after a brief titter at the opening I rapidly tired of St.Theresa’s Sarin comedy Sarin at the Westminster Theatre of Tragic Farce. Why speculate whether someone could have made Viagra in their kitchen when that plot comes from the same dream merchants who brought you: Serbian genocide of Croats, Serbian genocide of Albanians, Saudi demolition of WTC, Iraqi WMD, Iraqi anthrax in the mail, Russia shooting down MH17, and now Bashar Assad MD turned poisoner?
Whatever Sarin was used in Syria came from the same source as this Captogon (courtesy of Oz Sceptic BTL SyrPer:
Syrian security forces have just deprived terrorists of more than 400,000 Captagon pills!
https://www.globalresearch.ca/syrian-security-deprive-cia-terrorists-400000-captagon-pills/5686666
On 17 August, authorities in the suburbs of Damascus seized a truck filled with a large quantity of this Amphetamine-type Stimulant (ATS), known as Captagon.
comment image
“capta-GONE!!!”
Good work on the part of the Syrian security services .Now the terrorists will be deprived of at least some of their conscience numbing drugs.
Thank you for the link.
“When your enemy is nearly defeated, and final victory is at hand, gas your own people so that nations greater than yours will intervene and destroy you.”
– Tsun Tzu – The Art of War
(Reddit meme)
In 2014 Turkey’s Zaman Today newspaper had at least 4 articles concerning Turkish ministers accusing their government of supplying Sarin to Syrian rebels. How I wish I had done screen grabs, post Erdowan coup / clampdown these articles are scrubbed. A net search just now found similar reports.
I’ve never heard of him and supposed he was trolling….His comment didn’t make sense to me. The army of God were “lobbing” mortars into areas of Damascus. I thought the whole chlorine gas stuff was a false flag from the outset, otherwise we’d be hearing of terrorist attacks using chlorine all the time.
Anyway, I’m saddened at how the left has been fragmented. I no longer recognise some people as left at all. Liberal Fifth columnists apart, some who comment here seem to have more in common with Tommy Robinson’s views on culture and only differ in their views on Israel. Everything I’ve read about Syria, from the outset, makes me support the elected government, especially the efforts at reconciliation.
I’m getting on now and it’s very worrying to me that I have to sift through comments to know whether I’m speaking to a friend or an enemy.
“It amazes me, perhaps because I still deem them deluded but sincere,”
You are surely not referring to Louis P. in this statement, I figure, because I think you’ll guess immediately where I’m headed, given that my comment to Louis P. has been edited out of your synopsis, above … ? and focusses on other’s responses below.
I’ve nothing against you making something out of our collective comments @OffG and formulating something coherent, for better presentation, but my specific question is related to the trolling designed to tout and perpetuate the lies by NATO & the OPCW and in which case, why not mention that Louis P. is paid & controlled opposition, which my comment highlights, with his direct goal & methodology clear to see for all … just as others’ comments highlight the ease with which sarin gas can be formulated … ?
All part n’ parcel of propaganda & perpetuating lies, with military trolling & ‘disciplined’ attacks on the true narrative … see?
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a troll, I recommend that you pull the trigger or at least let off a warning signal that indicates how heavily the narrative has been and is still being steered. If you want people to wake up and demand the truth, then evidence the orchestrated trolling as well, especially if the troll has not the testicles to respond, even . . . just a thought.
Tim I mean no disrespect. I edited out your comment purely for simplicity’s sake.
As a matter of fact I deem Proyect’s repulsive jibe at Vanessa Beeley far more damning, and far more revelatory, than anything I, you or anyone other than the man himself could offer.
These days whenever I read information that comes from either the US military, the UK GCHQ and particularly the CIAregarding claims about countries we are invading I immediately hold the statement up to a mirror to get the opposite view which is always the true picture. If it was claimed Gadaffi was murdering his own people I knew we were would be killing his people. If we said the White Helmets were rescuing children I knew that they were in fact making films to pretend they were rescuing children and if they said they were doing so voluntarily I immediately understood they were being trained and generously paid by the British and US military. I can guarantee my method of analysis as it’s always proven to give a 100% accurate outcomes.
John Gilbert is more likely a intelligence agent than a scientist. How else other than spies would one analyze an enemies WMD and delivery systems? Who would also be included on a team traveling to the Soviet Union to oversee destruction of missiles under the INF treaty. Colonel is a rank often used by military Intelligence agents. Gilbert retired with rank of Colonel.
You are right to question the source with such a background.
People STILL responding to the ‘Bonney’ troll(s), even when admin repeatedly requests total shunning. Do choke him/her/them, folks. Don’t even read his/her/their inputs. It’s dead easy to do. Treat them like that long enough and they’ll die away from here. I like the way Off-G admin goes very lightly on banning, thread-locking, etc., compared to many sites. But that does require sophisticated cooperation from – actually bona-fide – commenters. Just feckin’ IGNORE the shite-pile(s) doing zionistan’s business for it.
Proyect is a different matter. He’s become so famous as a serial own-foot-shooter that it’s actually quite a gas – to coin a phrase – to listen to his reality-detached babblings and then shoot them down in flames – which is ridiculously easy to do; as see right here in this thread. The final removal of all credibility from Louis Proyect is a worthwhile cottage industry.
But the right response to the talentless Tel Aviv-central troll-farm excreta is total ignoring. Seriously: don’t even read them. When you do, they’re half-way towards baiting you into an annoyed reply, already. That’s their basic purpose, folks: spreading confusion and derailment, aka hasbarollocks. Off ’em! Don’t Read. Don’t Answer, Don’t Engage! Your very own personal propaganda-cleansing function for every site you visit! What could be more democratic – and savvy?
Good point,well put, I won’t (engage, I promise)
The Controlled Opposition Faux Left, Counterpunch, Democracy Now, Guardian and the like, are quite happy to fall into line behind their Neocon paymasters and sing from the Regime Change hymn sheet, on tap, as and when required. Selective outrage a speciality.
Nobody bothers to notice the glaring hypocrisy of those countries which supplied chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein for use against Iran and the Kurds (US, Germany, UK) clutching their collective pearls over the latest sarin hoax by their pet proxy head choppers in Syria. “The children! The children!! Oh, the children!!!”
The UK gave Saddam Hussein anthrax. If there were gold medals for hypocrisy and double standards, the UK would have a chestful of them.
Meanwhile, we still sell arms to the Saudis to kill the Yemenese, and have our “consultants” helping their air force to remain airworthy throughout their evil campaign. Those same publications don’t even scratch the surface on the topic, of course.
The chemical weapon use was initially stated as a red line by the US government ,read Western governments ,which was then the signal to use chemical weapons to the cut throat jihadists .The West proceeded to blame Assad for any use of chemical weapons thereafter and still manage to do so even today through their managed org.of OPCW. Cui Bono is appropriately the right and first question to be asked in any proper investigation to find the perpetrator .The rest is history .
When elections are finally held in Syria , the world will see who is the leader that the Syrian people love but we can expect the same lies from the usual liars to probably continue.
It’s pointless to argue with the likes of Proyect, who will never respond to your most valid points and is ideologically fossilised. But it’s necessary to also use the right argument. In the case of Sarin in Syria, the question is not “Whose Sarin”, but “where’s the evidence?” Because apart from in Khan al Assal in March 2013, there is practically no evidence that Sarin was ever present and killed people. So the repost to those who claim the SAA used Sarin, that the “rebels” didn’t have aircraft or Sarin so it had to be Assad, isn’t valid. The object of the militants and their foreign agents was only to frame Assad in the minds of the Western audience, whose support for intervention must be found; any means to present this would do, so long as it appeared to involve the use of CWs.
That these toxins were used to gas children for the Ghouta hoax videos, or to kill the “victims of Chlorine bombs” in Douma is not part of the argument – but just confirmation that the Syrian army is fighting ruthless and barbaric terrorists backed by criminal gangs infesting Western governments.
I am still waiting for the evidence of Syrian rebels using sarin gas as a weapon against Assad’s military. I guess I’ll have to wait in vain for an answer.
I also like Bob Marley.
That is dishonest. You did not ask for “evidence of Syrian rebels using sarin”. You made the false statement that sarin is too diificult to produce for the terrorists to have access to it. The question you now ask is entirely different and of course I have no evidence for a claim I did not make. My claim, which I stand by, is that Syrian “rebels” had every motive, and in all likelihood the means, for using sarin in false flag ops.
BTW, do you wish to take this opprtunity to apologise for your hideous remark regarding Vanessa Beeley?
Ho ho ho 😉 , and once again, I should have read the comments to the bottom, before commenting above, (Laughing at myself, addressed to you as constructive criticism), leaving me wondering still why you don’t briefly mention the methods of the team work going on in trolling, for which they are paid ?
Louis P. is paid opposition, clearly and of course he is wholly dishonest and may I now ask, what did you expect from a sitting duck ? That squeaks like a hungry baby-sparrow…
If it is an apology, then I think you’ll be waiting for quite sometime, until he’s grown up and Ms. Beeley is Knighted for the downing & outing of Military Intelligence Black Ops. & False Flags of the highest most despicable order, in the name of ‘humanity’ >>> highlighting the most obvious trolling is one way to support & enhance your consistently sound ‘narrative’, of their methods in covering up their collective dirty deeds.
‘Worth a mention’, was my thought …
Kind regards,
& best wishes,
Tim
And many of us – including those who, like myself, actually went through regular military NBC training and spent time at PD as a test subject whilst in the forces – are waiting for the evidence that it’s possible to treat people you claim have been attacked by nerve gas, both in situ and at any medical facilities, without proper NBC protective clothing and still come out unaffected.
It’s not as though the international protocols – which are based on practical science – on what the requirements are to safely (ie in terms of remaining alive) operate and treat human casualties in such contaminated zones are not easily available on the internet within a few seconds to even the most bone idle armchair warriors ( yourself obviously excluded Louise)
But the idea that we are expected to believe claims of nerve gas attacks – which NBC training advises takes deadly effect in seven seconds on exposure through skin or inhalation – in which those treated are shown operating in a claimed hot zone and treating casualties without protective gloves or other necessary ‘Noddy Suit” gear is laughable to the point of derision.
That people claiming to be grown up still peddle this science defying twaddle – even after claimed victims have made statements about staged and fake attacks to draw Western support – is perhaps the biggest mystery of all.
If I were Phil Roddis I would certainly be asking the cui bono question of those like yourself mate. Best you stick to counting the railings Louis and leave the science to the grown ups with actual experience.
LMAO, classic Dave: I’ve just been trying to convince the author of something pretty much identical to that which you say, only I forgot the ‘yourself obviously excluded Louise’ bit, which I love … and then this was the ‘coup de grace’…
“…and treating casualties without protective gloves or other necessary ‘Noddy Suit” gear is laughable to the point of derision.”
Great comments, Dave 🙂
I firkin’ love the science, too …
Music to my ears & eyes & nose for
Logical Respect,
Tim
Having contributed to similar discussions on Phil’s blog in the past I don’t think Phil needs any convincing on the points in question. He’s certainly aware of my background and take on the nerve gas issue (including Salisbury).
In terms of debating the issues with those such as Proyect it seems reasonable to observe that everyone will have differing priorities as to which points to raise or leave out in limited space when writing about an issue.
My priority concerns happen to focus on the refusal of so many supposedly intelligent people to recognise and accept scientific reality when it conflicts with the belief system in their own heads. For someone with a systems engineering background it makes no sense.
Others might well give that a lower priority in favour of say, motivation – and Upton Sinclair’s observation is certainly at play here.
Fair comment: so from Upton’s to the Unders’ > “Syria”
Lol, ‘Never forget the music’, 🙂
Regards,
Tim
Whoops, not quite sure what exactly happened there >>> mistake?
Hmmm, try again …
This was the track and perhaps admin might like to delete the massive attack link, which appears above ? The Satori remix of the Unders ‘Syria’ is also worth a listening …
Ahem, it looks like google have got the hump with me today, after some comments elsewhere: lol, just search ‘Syria’ by the ‘Unders’ and the Satori remix and you’ll get the musical drift, yourselves … 🙂
Meanwhile, can admin delete some of this repetition please … ?
Thanks for recommendation on the track. I know that feeling when the wrong link seems to over ride. Not that I don’t love a bit of Massive Attack any way.I also wanted to say. My apologies for not responding to your comment a couple of weeks ago. This also applies to any one else who I may not have responded to previously and may not manage to in the future. I would love to enter into dicussion more fully. People often raise such interesting and relevant points, but I seem to get so little time and have to dip into OffG when I can.
Hi Tim,
Why are you still using Google? I thought everyone knew that Google is controlled and monitored by the Cabal. You will rarely find anything you are looking for with them.
Change to Duck Duck Go. They do NOT track you and have more choice.
I thought this subject was moot with the discovery of a cache of chemical weapons back in 2015 by the SAA. The chemicals may have included Sarin but were mostly WW1 era agents such as chlorine and mustard gas. These vintage weapons are not only a lot easier to store, transport and use by untrained personnel but will generate the appropriate photogenic effects on their victims while leaving the field relatively safe for the media. (As you pointed out, nerve agents are a bit tricky, they have the potential to be as much of a problem to their users than their intended targets. You wouldn’t want to be anywhere near an attack scene unless you were well trained and protected.)
(You’ll also recall that the Sarin attack in Tokyo wasn’t particularly effective, it only worked because it was used in a confined space. The attackers could only deploy it in a crude binary form without becoming victims themselves.)
Anyway, by the rule of rationality — i.e. people aren’t totally stupid — the only conclusion on can draw is that these attacks are false flag operations designed entirely to draw or justify a military response from the US and its allies. The Syrian government had nothing to gain and everything to lose from using these weapons while the jihadists had nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Hush now, you spoilsport. You’ll burst Louis’s little bubble with your “cauldron of anti-marxist” dialectic of the appliance of science and inconvenient evidence.
Ask Carla del Ponte. She can supply any evidence you need.
Or ask the Turkish Police who arrested takfiri throat slitters in possession of canisters of sarin inside Turkey.
Carla del Ponte? That’s great.
On March 15, Mandel sent another complaint to Justice Carla del Ponte, the new chief prosecutor for the tribunal, who replaced Justice Louise Arbour in October. Mandel’s sharply worded letter protests the tribunal’s refusal to investigate NATO’s actions, saying that del Ponte has turned “the investigation into more of a farce than a judicial proceeding.” Mandel’s letter makes a solid case that far from being an independent investigator, the tribunal has conducted itself “as if it were an organ of NATO and not the United Nations.”
Alexander Cockburn and Jeff St. Clair, Counterpunch May 22, 2000
https://louisproyect.org/2013/08/31/carla-del-ponte-and-the-anti-imperialist-left-an-unprincipled-combination/
Seriously. How did you come to support the attempt to install a Saudia Arabian puppet government in Syria? Do you not see how it happened as a direct result of the attack on Libya? Why was it right to destroy Libya? Do you not understand it wasn’t a mass popular uprising and was planned in London, Paris and Washington? The following and identical attempt to ‘monsterise’ Assad doesn’t work with me because of the lengths the government has gone to rehabilitate rebels. Whatever you may say about Assad and the Syrian army doesn’t stack up, in reality, any more than it did in Libya. I’ve read a lot about life in Libya, especially from the viewpoint of British expat oil workers. They all said it was a good place to live, too quiet for their western tastes but very safe, free from state interference and the only complaint they had was that Libyans drove like maniacs. I bet many of them are sick at the loss of guaranteed housing, education and healthcare.
The problems rural people had under Assad and ongoing drought must seem wonderful to what has happened since. IMO anyone supporting the invasion of either country is not ‘left’ in any way.
The claim that Assad/SA used sarin is essentially a criminal indictment.
In a criminal trial, if Mr. X is accused of committing a crime, the prosecutor is obliged to prove beyond doubt that Mr. X committed the crime…
…the defense is not obliged to prove that Mr. YZ instead committed the crime. Although doing so is one tack of defense.
You’ve yet to prove beyond doubt, Mr. Proyect, that Assad/SA used Sarin. In fact, no one has proved this.
You don’t have to like Assad to be intellectually honest.
Syrian ‘rebels’ (sic) Oh, you mean Al Qaeda.
You write so much but you are illogical. It is the rebels and their supporters who want Assad to be associated with gassing people with chemical weapons. That’s exactly the reason why all of the supporting countries led by the US draw a redline targeting which (not rebels, not ISIS, not Alqaeda), but specifically Assad should not cross.
With such a one sided threat held against Assad it is only the rebels who benefit by gassing, not assad! The rebels know what scenario their mastaer wants to create hence they are not going to expose themselves as open peropetrators of the same crime only assads should be accused hence wouldnt never gass damascus knowing tthe world knows its held by assad. instead simple logic suggests they would only benefuit by targeting their own area and rushing to blame assad, Teresa May style. thats why your thining is so silly and all who follow you are as deluded as you, elliot higgins’ twin in crime.
Good piece, Philip!
Even if it weren’t easy to manufacture, Proyect and Monbiot some not to realize that there are other ways of acquiring sarin, such as stealing it, or smuggling it into Syria. For example, some have accused Erdogan of giving poison gas to the rebels:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-2013-east-ghouta-chemical-weapons-attack-turkeys-alleged-role-in-supplying-toxic-sarin-gas-to-terrorists.
By the way, Philip, since you were a Trot back in the day, were you ever familiar with an Israeli communist group known officially as the Socialist Organization in Israel, but more commonly called Matzpen (‘compass’) after its own magazine? Gilad Atzmon mentions them in his classic book The Wandering Who? He seems to think that the US neocons originally got their ideas (and some of the rhetoric) concerning ‘democracy promotion’ in the ME from them. Just curious …
I’m reading Wandering Who myself, Seamus, but confess I’ve no recall of Matzpen.
Great book! I’m sure you’ll love it. Atzmon has become a favorite of mine in recent years.
Global Research? Isn’t that the website that claims that the Arab Spring was a CIA plot?
https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-arab-spring-made-in-the-usa/5484950
Yeah that’s the one Louis. Good article, isn’t it?
If you have to do this to support your ATL narrative, perhaps you should have made it better.
It is difficult to respect repeated pieces supporting the repression of defenseless citizens, from the safety of a civilised, law abiding society.
If you want to defend Assad, do it from the borders of Syria. I’m sure your hero will thank you for it- whether the desire to defend him will remain, though….?
Yawn.
Chin up, something less of a yawn is the following link and great journalism by Dan Cohen 🙂
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/08/17/hong-kong-protest-washington-nativism-violence/
Thanks Philip. From my observations, it seems about the only Marxist group to ‘get it’ regards Syria, and understand what is really going on is the Socialist Equality Party who run the very well written Worldwide Socialist website, which I often look at, even tho I don’t regard myself as Trotskyist, or even Marxist.
Some of the mind boggling naivety from many of these ‘revolutionary ‘socialists’ who basically parroted mainstream media on the situation in Syria was deeply frustrating. I’ve known several who championed the Free Syrian Army as ‘revolutionary freedom fighters’. The now defunct ISO in the United States, as well as most ‘socialist’ groups in Australia, all almost interchangeable with the corporate media, and it must be said also, regards Julian Assange, most of these groups maintained total silence on his plight for 7 plus years, while members of some groups apparently accused Assange supporters of being rape apologists.
And then we have gatekeepers like Louis Proyect, and a fellow ‘revolutionary’ in New York I discovered named Bill Weinberg. I’ve looked at his Facebook page numerous times. The only words I can use are ‘truly delusional’.
So, the question is: how did most in the Marxist Left get it so wrong? Are they blind? Have they not heard of the word ‘Imperialism’? Or is something else going on here? Thanks for this Philip.
The WSWS article on the Hong Kong situation was pretty deluded. Somehow implying that Trump and Xi Jinping are in ‘solidarity’ in suppressing the Hong Kong population. I have no idea what they are on about there. The CIA and China are not in cahoots.
Actually didn’t read that article Bootly, didn’t look at WSWS today, will check it when I get up in morning as it’s 11.35 pm here. There seems less and less reliable sites to get info from, tho I stand by what I said about WSWS in general. Still vastly better than what the presstitutes excret in the mainstream ‘media’.
The dangers are ‘between the lines’. The human mind is quite vulnerable to manipulation. The fact that dissent to articles is not allowed on wsws, speaks for itself.
Volumes, NTO1, volumes & well said 😉
Yo Gezzah, you might want to check this brilliant article by Dan Cohen, first, on what has really been going down in Hong Kong:- well orchestrated by Lai/Murdoch, for ages, a long history of arrogance & provocation with deceitful hidden purpose, with financial objectives at heart. . . and a big thanks to Stephen Morrell, on the China article, most recent, for the link.
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/08/17/hong-kong-protest-washington-nativism-violence/
Cheers Tim for the link. Havn’t looked at The Grayzone for weeks, aye. The machinations of the Mafioso mob, aka the 0.01℅ and their henchmen and sycophantic mouthpieces…. can barely keep up at times with all the goings on. Bloody trolls popping up here more and more Tim, and even bloody LP has returned. We need insect repellent! Hope your weekend was groovily grouse, and now even glance at the weather in Sofia to see how hot it was!
‘It’s just a ride’ 🙂 FYI, I’ve responded to Guy, (just below), with some brief comment that helps ’round off’ the excellent article by Dan Cohen, with …
a touch of Objectivity in mind.
Be strong, be brave & patient … The Stranglers:- No more Heroes, Something better Change, & Golden Brown was not the solution to
The Opium Wars & controlling the minds of the masses, nor religion 🙂
But perhaps, Automated & Artificial intelligence is the solution, if the algorithms were not designed to favour the elites AND they were subjected to identical forms of control & social credits, as they already apply to us: & given the Chinese Electronic advances ahead of the capitalist elitist dictators of Zion, with Intel inside Israel, today’s HQ, I figure you are smart enough to figure for yourself exactly why Hong Kong is the Frontline in the East and why Bulgaria is the Frontline in the West …
Greetings Gezzah,
Have a hug,
Tim
‘Breaking’ Trading Economics – Israel GDP Growth Rate QoQ 1st Est was reported at 0.3% in Q2 from 1.2% , in the previous period. It was expected at 1.1%
Thanks again Tim. Read the Dan Cohen article earlier, and its fecken brilliant; probably the best analysis I’ve read about the situation in Hong Kong.
I already knew who was behind these protests anyway. You know how? The massive, ongoing coverage by the presstitute filth here in Australia, very biased towards the protesters seeking ‘freedom and democracy’ and highly critical of the Chinese Govt.
My contempt for those that whore themselves for the Anglo Zionist Empire, while claiming to be ‘journalists’ is very deep. These people are completely morally bankrupt in my opinion. The parallels with their coverage of Venezuela, Ukraine, and Hong Kong, juxtaposed with their almost complete silence on Yemen and Palestine says it all, and reveals them for what they are.
Further, their treatment of Julian Assange also reveals what they are. Interesting how the various Pro Wikileaks and pro Julian Assange protests, and the ‘media’ staged a complete blackout on these protests. They never happened. But yet they fully stuck the boot into Assange. How low can you get?
Will check out The Grayzone project more often
” juxtaposed with their almost complete silence on Yemen and Palestine says it all, and reveals them for what they are.”
Yes ,no kidding.Living in Canada I can also appreciate the non reporting about what is going on in Honduras and Brazil as the people there have had enough .A regime installed by the US in a coup .
https://www.opednews.com/articles/Protests-In-Honduras-Inten-by-The-Real-News-Netw-Corruption_Drug-Cartels_Protest-190816-886.html
Yes Guy, could also have added Honduras or Haiti or Brazil or a host of other countries. I’m just grateful we have sites like OffGuardian or others like The Grayzone Project, Moon Of Alabama, The Greanville Post, Strategic Culture and a few others to find out the truth of what is going on.
I get pretty worked up and incredulous at the outright crap and propaganda emanating from the stenographers, hence my venting here. This is the role of the media – to protect the status quo and the powerful, and demonise assigned enemies of the Empire. I read ‘Manufacturing Consent’ years ago, and was involved in a Central American solidarity group in the 1980s and early 90s. I learnt then of the horrors inflicted on countries like El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Honduras. Thanks for your reply.
In support of OffGuardian for what they do on informing us.The web site I believe is from a UK perspective and good that we should hear what is going on ,on the other side of the pond so to speak .
Just thought to mention what is also affecting our non reporting here in North America as what we hear mostly is either the bad Russians and the bad Chinese by the MSM especially , though I do my best to shut them out ,it is almost impossible ,especially if your spouse or live in ,listens to that crowd.
But I am probably much of the same group from where you come from as I read what you posted.In any case ,I do love Off Guardian and all the real reporting agencies such as the ones you mentioned
and many more .
Cheers from Canada.
Thanks Guy, greetings from Melbourne, Australia. I mostly avoid the MSM as I know what they are, and who they serve, tho occasionally glimpse at the news. Yeah, for now, there are some excellent, truth telling sites out there, tho I believe they will come under increasing attack, and the smears of ‘fake news’ and ‘conspiracy theorists’ will get louder. They want to silence dissenting views of the Establishment narrative. Have a groovy day😁.
Thanks for the link Tim .Sure provides a better window on what is happening in HK.
Cheers.
My pleasure, Guy: & I would like to add one thing that it is wholly worth remembering: never forget that the $HK is pegged to the $US and it has been so for ages: & it is not so difficult to figure out why, if you consider the present ongoing financial collapse & moral bankruptcy of capitalism, parallel with Hong Kong’s Free Port status and low taxation, as a financial centre and pivotal point for the existential conflict between Zionism & the ancient Chinese Dynastic Philosophy, that was far less centred around money and more focussed on the Spirit, as a whole …
I assure you that the Opium Wars never actually ended (just becoming Hidden) and it was no coincidence that the Rothschild’s moved their business interests in shipping from the World Trade Centre complex to focus on China/HK & Shanghai, 2 weeks before the ‘Hit’ on the 11th Sept. 2001 … surely no coincidence !
HSBC, still had US$2.5 Trillion in Dec. 2018 and though their HQ is in Bermuda, the Hong Kong & Shanghai Banking Corporation are world leaders in being complicit in illicit dealings, that transcend the deals of their old client, ‘El Chapo’, by an order of magnitude … 😉
Food for thought . . .
Best Wishes,
Tim
Correction: HSBC, still had US$2.5 Trillion ‘RESERVES’ in Dec. 2018 !
and that is just HSBC’s US Dollar reserves and nobody with a brain puts all their eggs in one basket, when it’s a bumpy unpredictable ride home and yer’ running sub-standard electronic systems, in comparison to the Chinese electronic advances, in recent years …
I don’t entirely trust Clara Weiss’s reports on Russia-related incidents and events for WSWS either. Much of what she writes seems to be based on sources prejudiced against Putin’s government if not openly opposed to it and supportive of regime change if the right conditions were present.
My response to this pathetic piece of propaganda was deleted. When a so called ‘World Socialist’ website calls China a regime, but the U.S. having a government, you know who writes the script. They are ‘socialist’ in name only. True socialism comes from ‘social’ and social means that everybody is cared for equally, that nobody is left behind. The WSWS is sending the working class to the butcher, instead of exploring alternatives to the status quo, that is way too much under the guise of ‘Arbeit macht Frei’ (work sets you free). What workers really need is a guaranteed basic income in order to not being exploited by the owner class. So, yes, the article in question makes that painfully clear.
Hi Gezza. The question you ask in your final para does exercise me. I think it important to note the differences as well as similarities between Workers Power and Guardian attacks on Assad. WP (I use it as the example most familiar to me) would agree wholeheartedly on the self serving hypocrisy of imperialism re the middle east. Guardian by contrast is deafeningly silent on this.
The question becomes this. Why, despite having a correct perspective on the real motives for imperialism’s wars on the middle east, do revolutionary groups believe MSM accounts so blatantly supportive of imperial agendas? I think there’s more than one answer here. One has been offered (though I can’t now find it) in another comment on this thread: the Trotskite doctrine of permanent revolution seems always to play out, whatever Trotsky intended, as the infantile idea that socialists and internationalists must await – in a grotesque playing out of the “perfect as the enemty of good” thesis – for twenty-four carat anti imperialist leaders before they will deign to defend governments in the firing line. They will wait forever. Right now, Trotsky’s ‘critical but unconditional defence’ formulation seems rather more useful.
I think another is more banal. These are tiny groups with tiny resources. Moreover, they tend to be suspicious – see Francis Lee’s remarks on “quasi religious” sects – of any sources not also marxist – and the correct brand at that! Which unfortunately makes them ignorant of superb work by such as Postol, Ritter, Murray, Giraldi – and for that matter, Peter Hitchens.
It’s only a partial answer I know, and a hesitant one at that. I think your question important, but largely unanswered.
Appreciate your reply Philip, thanks. Its something that’s frustrated, and at times infuriated me as to why all these groups parrot MSM. Will hunt out that comment you mentioned. As for utter cretins like Louis Proyect…. Ugh.
Well, maybe, just maybe, you know, just guessing, is it possible that people on the Marxist Left don’t have too many brain cells to rub together in the first place?
At this point, any attempt to clarify the facts, that there are no ‘moderate rebels’ and that those operating in Syria to oust the government of Assad by all means necessary – including weapons of mass destruction – are terrorists created and are supported by the U.S., Israel, Turkey and its Wahhabi brethren, is absolutely futile. The masses are so dumbed down that they have no more mental defense against the propaganda that was invented by Bernays and his ilk. These fascists knew about the vulnerabilities of the human mind. The Nazis made use of this knowledge and it was then transferred to the U.S. and adopted by all Western regimes.
It is also a fact, that those collaborating with the Western regimes to infiltrate web sites that publish the reality on the ground, to defame authors and commenters alike, are guilty of crimes against humanity. They can only act this way, because humanity at large is failing to prosecute these crimes. Instead, Julian Assange is held in indefinite detention for the publication of U.S. war crimes. There is no more justice on this planet, but the laws and forces of nature. These despicable excuses for human beings have it coming.
”Me, I’m baffled that any marxist could buy, on such negligible evidential basis, the demonising of a third world leader who stands in the way of imperialist powers …”
I’m not. Correct me if I am wrong but I think that the Guardian’s cold-warrior in chief pro-NATO fanatic is one Paul Mason, another ex-Trot who like Christopher Hitchens were ex-Socialist Workers party who turned neo-con. Peter Hitchens was also ex-SWP who turned conservative (small c). Workers Power was a breakaway from the British SWP. The American SWP containing luminaries such as Irving Kristol, Philip Selzner and Sydney Hook also became virulent anti Soviet fanatics arguing that the USSR was not socialist of deformed workers state but state capitalist, and undemocratic state-capitalist at that. That being the case they became paid up neo-con supporters of western imperialism.
The other Trotskyist groups were the Unified Secretariat of the 4th International led by Ernest Mandel, and in the UK by Tariq Ali, and the International Committee for the 4th International lead by Gerry Healey in the UK and Lambert in France. These were little more than secular quasi-religious cults.
Workers Power, of which I too was a member in the early eighties at the same time as Mason, broke with SWP (then IS) over Ireland: specifically, over the latter’s capitaulation to popular outrage following the Birmingham pub bombings. (Difficult to imagibn Paul courting such unpopularity nowadays!) It soon re-evaluated inherited positions on the British Labour Party, and Tony Cliff’s Russia-as-state-capitalist thesis. Most of the Workers Power rank and file made the usual journey into pipe and slipperhood, else Labour Party activism, while most leading lights were expelled in a hostile take-over.
I’m not wholly in agreement with your depiction of the Trotskist left as ‘quasi religious’. It strikes me as an oversimplification. What we can agree on, I think, is that for the most part – oddly enough with the exception of that breakaway from Healey’s diabolical materialist WRP now running the (very good) World Socialist Website – the Trotskite Left is a spent force. But it’s too easy to sneer. The irony is that, since these groups and tendencies were operating in a non revolutionary situation, there was no way of ascertaining, in the material conditions of class struggle, which perspectives advanced workers’ interests. Inevitably, groups loudly professing (dialectical) materialism were confined, more by circumstances than choice, to a de facto idealism. Maybe that gave rise to what you call a quasi religious outlook.
This shows in the views on the three things which most sharply defined and located any one of the British far left sects at the time: Ireland, USSR and Labour Party. The question – “is Russia state capitalist or degenerate workers’ state?” – did acquire the nature of an article of religious faith. In that respect these groups resembled protestants and catholics arguing over the transubstantiation – or that extreme end of 9/11 Truthism which refuses to listen to anything, however useful and on howver removed an issue, said by those who have not signed up to the One True Belief.
NB – as one whose views on 9/11 changed, radically and publicly, I’m not trying to revisit that debate here! Nor am I speaking of Truthers as a whole. I’m speaking solely to the issue of “quasi religious” wordviews.
Dear Philip
I can assure you that having once been a member the Gerry Healey’s outfit, the Socialist Labour League – come – Revolutionary Workers’ Party, was indeed a quasi religious cult with Healey himself as the petty fuhrer. The IMG, British section of the United Secretariat, however, seemed quite reasonable in comparison. I wonder what happened to them.
“I wonder what happened to them” … He’s over there .. splitter. life of Brian.
So this is where the Trotskyists / Bolsheviks hang out these days.
This is one of the great undiscussed political questions of our time. The influence of the “marxism’ to be found in vanguard parties, most of them trotskyist, despite the fact that Trotsky was among the first and most perceptive critics of them, has been enormous in the ‘west’.
Generations of reactionary theorists, strategists and-most of all- apologists for imperialism began their political careers calling themselves Communists but “not of the Soviet or Chinese” kind.
My own view is that the most generous, and reasonable, assessment of What Is To Be Done (Lenin’s version) is to place it in its specifically Russian, Tsarist context. Which means in the context of an era long past.
To attempt to set up a “Leninist” vanguard party in the UK in 1970 made sense only in terms of securing careers for mini stalins found in chrysalises hanging from the eaves of the Cliff family home within the old IS.
There is no more efficient way of insulating a way of understanding the world and ensuring that it loses its predictive power than by forming a sect around it and organising it around the tight discipline imposed by a leadership composed of the most cynical and dishonest members.
As usual, bevin, I concur. Those Trotskyite sects and splinters not only contained many young middle class rebels going through their protest period before ‘growing up and joining the real world’. They had the deeper problem of being revolutionaries in a non revolutionary period.
I like your final para, by the way.
I’ve known Proyect for decades and he’s typical of the so-called left who view anything short of total revolution as a betrayal, hence Assad is a betrayer of Proyect’s vision of his Trotskyist/Maoist ‘revolution’. It’s infantile rubbish. What amazes me is that he’s been peddling this rubbish for so long and he still has an audience for it! Give it up Lou, get a life.
I repeatedly find Trotsky’s “critical but unconditional support” formulation, in respect of the leaders of imperialised nations, useful. Part of my bafflement at the stance, less of LP who is clearly deranged – witness that vile depiction of Vanessa Beeley – than of Trotyskite groups like Workers Power, is that they fail to see its applicablity in the midde east. Even if Assad were guilty of using sarin (somehow beyond the pale while depleted uranium is not) this should not alter that principle of unconditional defence in the face of rapacious imperialism.
Agreed, but Proyect’s interpretation of Trotsky’s vision of ‘permanent revolution’, is an obscenity, what Trotsky would make of it is anyone’s guess.
Indeed.
Indeed: Trotsky might even suggest that Louis P. deserves to inherit the
infamous ‘ice pick’ 😉
and bequeath differently 🙂
While oxy-moron Military Intelligence 6 plays around with ever wilder and less effectual poison plots, the Axis of Resistance (led by Syria, Russia and Iran) get on with real war work. Canthama (#299478 in today’s SyrPer) adds the following comment to the latest report in his series on Dr.Assad’s surgical extirpation of NATZO’s ISIS cancer from the Syrian body politic:
“Traditional terrorists supporters are getting really desperate, they are publishing non stop images of air strikes, fake photos with wounded civilians in a vain attempt to get the West to intervene once more to protect all the terrorists; meanwhile RuAF and SAAF continue to do their job.”
Since this post appeared I’ve been alerted to the fact Louis Proyect tweeted, on June 10 2016, that Vanessa Beeley is “too ugly to fuck”. Classy.
IMHO, she’s a shit-ton hotter than Proyect!
More importantly she is also a courageous principled example of an endangered species who has my utmost admiration.
Proyect went to the Berlusconi school of human relations.
Of course. I didn’t mean to take anything away from her courage and resourcefulness. I just happen to think she’s a hotty, too!
And anyway, she isn’t – even in her fifties.
I don’t know what it is with some men. That they seem to think the worst insult they can throw at a women is that they find them too ugly to F. Its as if the only worth a woman has to them is that of a man wanting to. How misogynistic is that. The world would be a much worse place without the likes of brave and principled people like Vanessa Beeley in it. Misogynistic man boys not so much. On another point I find the worst of all this propagandizing of war crimes is the selective crocodile tears shed by those supporting an agenda for regime change in Syria. Unlike the death toll in Yemen due to the deliberate starvation. A war crime not so freely called out by the MSM, and the appalling death and injury of innocent children in Yemen hardly gets a mention. On 9th Aug 2018 51 were killed and 77 injured when Saudi UEA US bombed a school bus in a market place in Dhahyan. Where was all the outrage about that in the MSM.This to me says it all.
No doubt Proyect would get all bent out of shape if Trump said the exact same thing about a girl.
It may be some small consolation to you, Kathy, that this kind of patronising sexism is no longer the exclusive preserve of the ladies.
Guardian/ Independent hacks have targeted Assange/ Snowden in a similar fashion. These third rate hacks were sneering that Snowden only had “a wispy beard, not a very manly beard.” Presumably they would have been happier if he was sporting a full Bin Laden style job. Likewise, when Assange took refuge in the Ecuador embassy, Independent hacks were sneering that he was wearing a pink shirt, and needed “a better image consultant.” When he was dragged out of the embassy by May’s secret police goon squad, sporting a (commendably full and manly) beard, Guardian hacks were sneering that he “looked like Uncle Albert.”
Mark, It is, I think a lazy vacuous and cheep behavior. It shows the shallowness of those in question. The fact they call out , or they hope by doing so, will detract from a persons integrity and courage. This says far more then they maybe realize about themselves.
And that is one of those cases where Proyect reveals himself as being unserious. This embarrassing remark is like a playground snigger.
A piece that shouldn’t need writing by this stage,but the ability of otherwise sensible people to be taken in by propaganda from people and governments who they know have lied to them repeatedly in the past tells us otherwise.
Sorry but I do not believe Proyect, a bloke who repeats any falsehood that tries to prop up the zionist line, to be ‘otherwise sensible’.
In fact considering that over the years I have seen far too many threads comprised of serious minded types attempting to honestly debate ME issues, deliberately forced off topic by Proyects zionist nonsense, I believe the bloke should be categorised as a ‘common or garden troll’ and completely ignored on those sites which choose not to delete posts from this disgusting stripe of low life.
The plight of Palestinian people isn’t a matter of opinion to be debated as if there could be competing views, their oppressed existence is a matter of fact well beyond opinion and those types who pretend there is any other side to the story of Occupied Palestine than a gang of amerikan & euro thugs genociding the indigenous population of the Jordan Valley, are liars who deserve no oxygen on any halfway humanist site.
UreKismet,I am not sure why your post appears to be a response to mine,a mistake perhaps.We are in agreement on the plight of the Palestinians and the various attempts by Zionists,particularly by those Zionists laughably described as liberal,to derail discussions on the ME.
Sorry John,
I did intend this as a reply but one in support of what you said, merely querying your description of scum like Proyect who parrot the worst of the pro-zionist neolib line propounded by western governments as being ‘otherwise sensible’.
I regret that I wrote in a way that could be seen as critical of what you said as that was not my intention.
Not being a great joiner, (only my union an almost automatic action which protected me and my co-workers throughout my working life) and having long believed that people must learn to create advantage by working together without having to agree on every issue other than the immediate ones they need to win in that moment, Trotskyists like Proyect are an anathema to me.
Even though I have a lot of time for many of the things some Trotskyists say, theirs can be an exploitative game, where people already united in solidarity over one issue find themselves roped into ancillary issues than are not only lower priority, they are un-neccessarily divisive.
Looking back to my youth, just about every issue beaten up by neolibs because it wedges humanity into smaller more easily manageable units and can be adopted at little or no cost to the state, thereby freeing up funds to go to the uber wealthy corporates, was first propounded 50 years ago by no-life Trotskyists who dismissed concerns about the fragmentation of resistance as being reactionary and bourgeois.
Now we live in a world where too many people support only that which directly concerns themselves, an emptyhead but articulate type such as Proyect reminds me the danger to all of us such venal propagandizing can be.
The result is my response which should have considered how you may receive it.
Thank you for the reply UreKismet.I share your distrust of self proclaimed Trotskyist groups and many of their supporters.I’m not sure why,but they always seem to be at the heart of any sectarian divide on the left.Since Trotsky doesn’t seem,from my limited reading of him, to foster such attitudes,I am not sure where they come from.
Tons of upvotes for you if I could.Very well said.
Hmm… suicidal japenese death cults don’t rate too highly on my lab safety scale either.
apparently that lot actually tried to mix it using steel.
Assad does. Why? Chemical weapons allow you to eliminate your enemy, suffer no casualties yourself, and leave buildings and infrastructure intact.
The issue of ‘the difficulty of making Sarin’ is a non issue, when your country is effectively a client state of Russia.
An article that begs the question ‘what has Assad got on you?’
Oh, so blow up buildings with bombs, then use chemical weapons to save buildings? That’s dumb. Have you seen pictures and video of Syria where fighting has happened? Looks like pictures of Germany after allied bombings. “Suffer no casualties yourself”–like what bombs already do. “Eliminate your enemy”–like bombs already do.
Who benefits? That was already answered by anyone paying attention–the invaders benefit through overt support by the U.S. regime.
Well I don’t have your depth of military experience, WHB. Could you spell out for lesser mortals the gains to Damascus, following Ghouta, Khan Sheikhoun and Douma? To the casual eye they can seem massively in the negative.
Yes but WHB would argue that Assad is SO EVIL and perverted that he does irrational things, like shoot himself in the foot, gas his own people and generally work AGAINST his own objectives. Perhaps WHB and Proyect should get married?
Perhaps they already are Barovsky? Joined together during one of Epstein’s movies .. leaving them no option but to flap their traps and let garbage fall out.. or else.
What SANE person would think that this statement is OK?
”Chemical weapons allow you to eliminate your ‘enemy’, suffer no casualties yourself, and leave buildings and infrastructure intact.”
The Cabal is the only ENEMY this world has, and its mind controlled lackeys who have blood lust. Not the innocent populations of the countries earmarked for takeover. How do we know when it is a takeover? Because they want to preserve the buildings?
I believe Lenin coined the phrase, ‘many a strange bedfellow’ which aptly describes the WHB/LP dangerous liason and yes, in a way they are already having marital coitus. It’s a mad, mad world.
This is not a real person, but belongs to the brainwashed legions that are relentlessly defaming anybody that points to the propaganda and lies of the fascist Western regimes.
Then what qualifies you to comment on a chemical weapons thread? Assad uses chemical weapons for the same reason police forces use tear gas. You can immunise your own forces with countermeasures.
When you are fighting your own people, running out of loyal soldiers is a real possibility.
Please don’t engage with this self-confessed troll. He will not answer your questions or debate you honestly with facts. He will simply lie, obfuscate and insult. Starve him and he will leave.
Much safer to be a client state of Russia than the USA.