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Erdogan & Putin’s Moscow Meeting “We’re in Idlib to protect the people there.” says Turkish President.

Eric Zuesse

On Thursday, March 5th, Turkey’s President Tayyip Erdogan met privately with Russia’s President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, as to arrange a face-saving way for Erdogan finally to end his attempted theft of Syria’s Idlib Province away from Syria — his attempt to seize it for Turkey.

According to Middle East Eye, on Saturday February 29th, reporting under their headline “Erdogan asks Putin to stand aside as Ankara deals with Syrian government forces”, Erdogan said in Istanbul that on Friday the 28th he had told Putin (presumably by phone or some other remote means) that, “We did not go there [into Syria’s Idlib Province] because we were invited by” Syria’s President Bashar al-Assad; but instead, “We went there because we were invited by the people of [Idlib Province of] Syria. We don’t intend to leave before the people of Syria say ‘okay, this is done’.”

Thus, “Erdogan said he asked Putin to leave Turkey ‘to do what is necessary’ with the Syrian government.”

In other words: the people in Idlib — the only province in Syria where the percentage of the residents in a 2013 British poll of all Syrians showed less than 12% saying they “support the Assad Government” (12% having been the percentage of people who said that in Raqqah Province, which was then controlled by ISIS, and which showed as being the second-to-most-pro-jihadist Syrian province) — want Turkey’s protection, and therefore Turkey will remain in control over Idlib Province of Syria until “this [protection of the residents there] is done,” which will be never.

That was Erdogan’s argument: he will keep Idlib because the vast majority of the people there are jihadists or at least admire jihadists. Only 4% of the people sampled in Idlib said they “support the Assad Government.”

Only one-third as many supported Syria’s Government as did in the ISIS-controlled province, which had the second-lowest percentage of its residents supporting Syria’s Government.

This same British polling organization found in 2014 that 70% of the people sampled in Idlib said that Al Qaeda in Syria, called “Nusra Front,” had a “Completely positive influence” (35%) or else a “Somewhat positive influence” (35%), and that the second-highest on that was Raqqah, at 66%.” So: on both measures, Idlib was the most pro-jihadist province in all of Syria. And Erdogan wants it to become part of Turkey so as “to protect the people there.”

Between 2014 and now, uncounted hundreds of thousands of fighters who were being led by the Nusra Front and armed by the U.S. coalition and funded by the Sauds (the U.S. and its allies call these fighters ‘rebels’ as if those are like America’s own 1776 rebels against the British Crown and for democracy), fled into Idlib Province after having been defeated elsewhere in Syria; so that the percentage today in Idlib who respect the Nusra Front would probably be significantly higher than 2013’s 70%.

Of course, not everyone who now lives in Idlib is led by Al Qaeda, but even before Idlib became the collection-area and refuge for Al Qaeda followers, that figure was 70%; and, so, if Turkey is to protect them (as NATO member Turkey wants to do), instead of to annihilate the 70%+ of people there who either are jihadists or else are admirers of jihadists, then Idlib will be a virtually permanent festering hotbed for what Al Qaeda represents, which is a fundamentalist-Sunni, intensely anti-Shia, takeover of the entire world. However, Russia, Syria, Iran, and Hezbollah, are all intensely opposed to that fundamentalist-Sunni goal.

The U.S. and its allies (including especially America’s ally the Saud family who own Saudi Arabia) support that jihadist goal, but seem not to have accepted Erdogan’s request of their help to go to war against Russia in order to assist Turkey to seize Idlib for it to become a permanent part of Turkey.

According to Erdogan’s own account of what his argument was to Putin, Erdogan — (the leader of) a NATO (or anti-Russian military alliance) member — is telling (the leader of Russia) Putin to, as that headline says, “stand aside as Ankara deals with Syrian government forces.”

Obviously, Putin would never willingly do any such thing, but as I headlined on February 29th, “Turkey Asks NATO to Join Its War Against Syria and Russia”, and therefore what Erdogan told Putin (unless he is lying about that) is in keeping with this intention, to compel Russia to comply with the dictates of the U.S. Government and of its allies.

Is it a realistic expectation, though, that the U.S. Government and its allies will continue to protect Al Qaeda in Syria, as they have been doing till now? I don’t think so; and here is why:

The anonymous geostrategic genius who blogs as Moon of Alabama headlined on February 28th, “Syria — Deadly Bomb Strike Warns Turkey To End Its Escapades”, and this is only the latest in his series of articles arguing that Erdogan has manoeuvred himself into a position from which a checkmate can no longer be avoided.

He concludes the article with:

“NATO and the U.S. have both rejected to get involved in the Idleb [sp.] affair. Turkey is on its own and Erdogan will have to be careful. He is not only losing in Syria but also in Libya and he can not risk to further upset Russia because the Turkish economy depends on it.”

If that is true, however, then ultimately Turkey will need to expel NATO from Incirlik Air Base, and quit NATO altogether.

My own opinion, from all of this (for what it’s worth), is that Erdogan doesn’t yet see far enough ahead to recognize that there’s no way possible to avoid checkmate, but he soon will.

This also is the opinion of both The Saker, on March 2nd, and Tom Luongo, on March 4th. However, if U.S. President Donald Trump decides to back Erdogan’s attempted theft of Idlib from Syria, then World War III will be likely.

That’s perhaps the main reason why that is not expected to happen, especially during a U.S. Presidential election year.

Investigative historian Eric Zuesse is the author, most recently, of They’re Not Even Close: The Democratic vs. Republican Economic Records, 1910-2010, and of CHRIST’S VENTRILOQUISTS: The Event that Created Christianity.

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paul
paul
Mar 8, 2020 1:18 AM

Saudi Arabia is the place to watch in the immediate future.
MBS has just arrested half the royal family for an alleged coup attempt.
Whether this is real or imaginary, there is a great deal of discontent over the arrogant, inept, thuggish, and clownish behaviour of Bonesaw Bin Salman.
He imprisoned and tortured many of the royal and business elite in the Ritz shakedown, kidnapped the Lebanese prime minister, and sent his goon squad to Turkey to murder Khashoggi.
There was already a substantial and very problematic budget deficit of $50 billion, even before the recent plummeting of the oil price.
The grandiose plans for economic diversification based on the Aramco sale appear to have flopped.
Yemen is a running sore, costing billions a month MBS cannot afford. And he is losing, with significant damage now being inflicted on SA itself. MBS initiated this war on a whim 5 years ago, expecting it to last a fortnight, and promptly cleared off on holiday to the Maldives.
The regime change plan in Syria, in which MBS was a major player, has gone belly up, with nothing to show for the tens of billions spent and the hundreds of billions wasted on military toys from Trump.
And last but not least, the cancellation of the Haj will cost billions in tourist revenue.
And if SA goes down, the knock on effect on the other petty Gulf dictatorships, the US and the dollar could see a general toppling of dominoes.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 8, 2020 3:27 PM
Reply to  paul

And if SA goes down, the knock on effect on the other petty Gulf dictatorships, the US and the dollar could see a general toppling of dominoes.

That would not be a bad thing at all!

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 7, 2020 8:13 PM

With the upcoming collapse of the dollar-centric international monetary and financial system, US, UK and other western forces will increasingly be needed to maintain order amongst their ever more immiserated home populations.

Look at the withdrawal from Afghanistan in that light.

Charlotte Russe
Charlotte Russe
Mar 7, 2020 8:05 PM

It’s utterly revolting that after than 25 years of unending wars in the Middle East there’s absolutely nothing to show for it accept an unstable mess in Afghanistan; ongoing genocide in Yemen; economic warfare with Iran; a volatile Iraq demanding the US get out; and Idlib a home-sweet-home in Syria for Al-Qaeda–the supposed terrorist group responsible for 9/11, but is now protected by the West and an overreaching Erdogan who has visions of restoring the Ottoman Empire. I’m surprised, Erdogan is not more concerned with the possibility of another “Pocono Turkey” leader reemerging.

clickkid
clickkid
Mar 7, 2020 8:37 PM

“accept an unstable mess in Afghanistan”

Unstable messes have their advantages for certain people.

Think of the opium that’s left Afghanistan since 1980.

I recommend the following book by Peter Dale Scott:

“Drugs, Oil & War: The United States in Afghanistan, Colombia & Indochina”

Charlotte Russe
Charlotte Russe
Mar 7, 2020 9:08 PM
Reply to  clickkid

The gross national product of Afghanistan is heroin –what else would you expect under gangster capitalism. That being said, I was viewing the stable mess in the eyes of the working-class who’ve have been totally exploited US imperialism.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 8, 2020 3:29 PM

The USA isn’t about to abandon its ambitions of stealing Afghanistan’s multi-trillion natural resources such as rare earths, gold, precious stones, natural gas and even oil.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/18/trumps-afghanistan-strategy-may-unlock-3-trillion-in-natural-resources.html

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-war-is-worth-waging-afghanistan-s-vast-reserves-of-minerals-and-natural-gas/19769

Charlotte Russe
Charlotte Russe
Mar 8, 2020 4:39 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

I agree–the US will never leave Afghanistan it’s too geostrategically significant.
And of course, there’s trillions in natural resources waiting to be harvested.

paul
paul
Mar 8, 2020 1:25 AM

You’re being far too negative, C.
Think of all the fat profits for Lockheed, Raytheon and Boeing and their soaring share prices.
That outweighs little things like few failed states and a few million dead and a few million refugees.
You have to see the bigger picture.

Charlotte Ruse
Charlotte Ruse
Mar 8, 2020 12:19 PM
Reply to  paul

My focus was far too limited in just concentrating on the poor working-class slobs exploited by endless wars.

Of course, it was neglectful not to mention that “genocide” is an economic “boom industry” for the military/security/surveillance
/corporate state.

mcdonagh4
mcdonagh4
Mar 7, 2020 2:12 PM

The 4 lead characters in this farce are Putin , Trump, and Netanyahu , with Erdogan playing the villain at the moment . Like all tyrants they are subject to the wishes of their militaries and elites who keep them in power. Erdogan’s position being the most precarious has indeed painted himself into a corner.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 7, 2020 4:58 PM
Reply to  mcdonagh4

Putin is absolutely not a tyrant.

Tim Drayton
Tim Drayton
Mar 7, 2020 5:27 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Just somebody who uses all means fair and fould to crush any opposition and dissent, from closing down the independent media to having Boris Nemtsov, one of the stongest figures in the opposition, gunned down in broad daylight in Moscow.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 7, 2020 7:32 PM
Reply to  Tim Drayton

With about 1% approval ratings, Nemtsov was very far from being one of the strongest figures in the opposition, quite the contrary. With similar approval ratings, Navalny too is very far from being one of the strongest figures in the opposition.

The real opposition is the Communist Party which has the second largest number of seats in the Duma.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 7, 2020 7:36 PM
Reply to  Tim Drayton

Furthermore, there is no dearth of opposition media, both in print and TV stations, in Russia – in fact there are a great many. You really have not the first scintilla of the first iota of the foggiest idea of the reality in Russia.
comment image

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 7, 2020 7:40 PM
Reply to  Tim Drayton

Oh, and Putin never had Nemtsove gunned down at all. The culprits stem are Ukrainian/Chechens.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 7, 2020 7:52 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Oh, and Putin never had Nemtsove gunned down at all. The culprits are Ukrainian/Chechens.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 7, 2020 7:51 PM
Reply to  Tim Drayton
paul
paul
Mar 7, 2020 7:54 PM
Reply to  Tim Drayton

Nemtsov was a neocon stooge nonentity, important only to his Washington handlers. His support inside Russia was so low it was scarcely measurable. He was probably bumped off by the same people. When he outlived his usefulness, he still had some residual value as a sacrificial propaganda pawn, like Skripal or Litvinenko. Becoming a Washington stooge can be harmful to your health – as Diem, Noriega, Saddam and Bin Laden discovered.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 7, 2020 8:25 PM
Reply to  paul

EXCLUSIVE: French Spec Ops Captain Paul Barril Reveals How Litvinenko Was Killed

13 Apr 2016

Retired French GIGN officer Paul Barill says he not only knows how Alexander Litvinenko was assassinated, but his handler exiled tycoon Boris Berezovsky was killed to keep him quiet.

D'Esterre
D'Esterre
Mar 9, 2020 1:42 AM
Reply to  Tim Drayton

Tim Drayton: “Just somebody who uses all means fair and fould to crush any opposition and dissent, from closing down the independent media to having Boris Nemtsov, one of the stongest figures in the opposition, gunned down in broad daylight in Moscow.”

I’ll take a wild guess: you’re another Pom, right? That account is fantasy from start to finish. If you had that piece of fiction from your own, or the US, media, it’s important that you accept that you’ve been comprehensively hornswoggled.

No. I’m not a Russian bot; or that laughably pathetic characterisation, a “Putin fanboy”. These are both ad homs, chucked around by those who’ve run out of substantive arguments.

D'Esterre
D'Esterre
Mar 9, 2020 12:01 PM
Reply to  Tim Drayton

Tim Drayton: a relative is RO and made the following observation: “I asked people around church for their thoughts on Nemtsov, and the most common response was ‘who?’ ”

Boris Nemtsov wasn’t killed during the day. He was killed at 11 30 at night, while he was out walking with his latest squeeze.

People were prosecuted for his murder. They were Chechens who were pissed off at his anti-Islamic statements, and his long standing sympathy for the terrorists.

As to closing down independent media: the people who run Echo Moscow and TV Rain would be surprised to hear that they don’t exist.

Not that this would stop them from complaining about the lack of free speech in Russia, while they fill up the airwaves with their drivel, thereby demonstrating that they actually do have free speech.

Eric Zuesse
Eric Zuesse
Mar 8, 2020 3:15 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

But isn’t it interesting to know that even at this site some readers are so in the dark about reality — so indoctrinated by the regime’s propaganda- media — and can’t let go of the lies they have learned to be ‘truths’?

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Mar 10, 2020 2:16 AM
Reply to  Vierotchka

A new troll from the Integrity Initiative Sewer I would say.

mcdonagh4
mcdonagh4
Mar 10, 2020 4:55 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Clearly English is not your primay language , look up the definition of the term.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 10, 2020 5:39 PM
Reply to  mcdonagh4

Who are you responding to?

D'Esterre
D'Esterre
Mar 9, 2020 1:32 AM
Reply to  mcdonagh4

Mcdonagh4: “….Putin , Trump, and Netanyahu , with Erdogan playing the villain at the moment . Like all tyrants…”

Oh, you Poms! I assume that you’re one such? Surely you know by now that your media has been comprehensively propagandising the UK population for a very long time. Probably since said media was established.

Really: the rise of the internet ought to have disabused you all of the notion that your media reportage is disinterested. It isn’t. Nobody has any excuse for still believing codswallop of the sort dished up about Russia.

The UK establishment has had its undies in a bunch about Russia for centuries. That hostility long predates the Russian revolution. Putin isn’t a tyrant: has never been. If you believe otherwise, it’s important that you take a sceptical view of where you get that sort of information.

mcdonagh4
mcdonagh4
Mar 9, 2020 1:12 PM
Reply to  D'Esterre

Mr Putin by definition is a tyrant though by todays standards the best of a bad bunch. As global population continues to climb , pollution worsens, resources become scarce , and tyrants of all political ilks become more repressive. I agree that Fake news and propaganda have always been with us , and with the invention of the Internet has become more oppressive , driving many of us mad.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Mar 10, 2020 2:20 AM
Reply to  mcdonagh4

Simply a LIE.

mcdonagh4
mcdonagh4
Mar 10, 2020 5:02 PM

A response worthy of an emotioanal child ?

D'Esterre
D'Esterre
Mar 10, 2020 9:13 AM
Reply to  mcdonagh4

mcdonagh4: “Mr Putin by definition is a tyrant….”

By whose definition? Do you believe this because your government – or the US, say – tells you so?

Putin has been elected at every election since he first stood for the presidency. That doesn’t meet any definition of “tyrant” that I know of.

“….though by todays standards the best of a bad bunch.”

Say what? You know that doesn’t make sense, right?

“….Fake news and propaganda have always been with us , and with the invention of the Internet has become more oppressive…”

I’ve spent my longish life paying attention to what’s going on in the world. We’ve been systematically propagandised at best, lied to at worst, by the msm for all of that time. It was the rise of the internet in the 1990s which alerted me – and many other people – to the extent of both propaganda and lies. Suddenly, we were able to have access to dissenting journalism and analysis that hadn’t previously been published. Some literature had been accessible in the universities, but only to students and academics.

I do not know what you mean by fake news. But in my view, all that propaganda, and the lies, to which we’ve been subjected over my lifetime, constitute fake news. The internet has freed us from all of that rubbish.

I’m reassured that now I have a better handle on what’s really gone on – and going on – in the world. And I’ve learned to treat with extreme scepticism anything I read in the msm.

That includes pretty much anything reported about Russia and Putin.

mcdonagh4
mcdonagh4
Mar 10, 2020 5:01 PM
Reply to  D'Esterre

“Singing songs and carrying flags , mostly say Hooray for our side ! To paraphrase Buffalo Springfield 1965.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 10, 2020 3:17 PM
Reply to  mcdonagh4

You obviously have never set foot in Russia over the past 20+ years.

I have, and I can tell you that Putin is not a tyrant at all. At most, he is authoritarian, which is necessary in such a vast country with so many different ethnicities and languages.

mcdonagh4
mcdonagh4
Mar 10, 2020 4:58 PM
Reply to  Vierotchka

Get an English dictionary , look up tyrant rather than letting your emotional committments run away with your capacity to reason.

Vierotchka
Vierotchka
Mar 10, 2020 5:25 PM
Reply to  mcdonagh4

A tyrant is a cruel and oppressive ruler, which is absolutely NOT the case with Putin.

D'Esterre
D'Esterre
Mar 10, 2020 10:07 PM
Reply to  mcdonagh4

mcdonagh4: “Get an English dictionary , look up tyrant…”

You are beginning to sound a trifle hot under the collar, I must say. Are you unused to other people contradicting you?

Do not patronise commenters. In virtue of what would you think that the rest of us aren’t acquainted with the meaning of tyrant?

I’m not sure why you’re so committed to your view about Putin. What on earth do you gain from it? Given how many times he has been re-elected, it’s evident that the citizens of Russia who’ve voted for him disagree with you. And it’s their business, after all. He’s their president, not ours. Or yours.

Although I’ve read commentary suggesting that at least some US citizens would like Putin to be their president. Not surprising, really, given the long line of muppets elected to the US presidency in my lifetime, going all the way back to Eisenhower.

Of course Jack Kennedy had the makings of being an exception. And look what happened to him…

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Mar 7, 2020 10:11 AM

Welcome to the party Mr Zeusse, a liitle late as is your style, but there are still some dregs to drink and crumbs to scoff.

bernard at MoA is an excellent and fast collector, analyst and summariser of issues.

On the insider geo-politics of the region though Elijah Magnier is as good as gold and he should be cited for getting knowledge to us regularly, I highly recommend everyone to
https://mobile.twitter.com/ejmalrai

Of course what’s happening minute by minute on the ground is also available by twitter from folk such as Geroman.
————

That said what of Turkey and the seemingly hapless Erdogan now that he has suffered a public humiliation?

Having had to endure a one to one public capitulation for hours with Putin and a show of cowering under the statue of Katherine the Great.

The 2nd biggest army of Nato has failed to run over the SAA with their proxy jihadi mercenaries bought in from all over the world at the behest of the Anglo Imperialists 5+1 eyed gollum.

Turkey the gate keeper of Fortress Europe, the handmaiden of the super rich arab tribes and whore of Babylon to Nato has… ESCAPED from these roles in one fell swoop to a future full of promise!

My opinion is that as a lynchpin between the EU and the SCO and the ME, Turkey will achieve a greatness worthier than has been dreamt of by the peddlars of dreams the 5+1 eyed ancients have sold to nations. Leading them to doom and scalping through the ages – like Ukraine as a recent example.

All this was evident the moment Putin bought Erdo an ice cream at the airshow in Russia last year, the useless F35 order got dumped , the purchase of the superior S400’s guaranteed, the completion of Turkstream and the looming bulldozers and cement trucks of the fast approching BRI. Add in a share of gas from the Mediterranean and Turkey will have a key role and prosperous future.

Of course the Imperialists knew this was on the cards ages ago hence they attempted to overthrow him – but with the help of the regional members – these he calls foes – he survived and the plotters were mostly removed from the ranks. The last few have just been given enough rope to hang themselves by the rash excursions into Syria.

All Turkey has to do is clean up the mess they have got themselves into as the shit shovellers of the Fukus and partners.

I think Erdo and Putin have played a great dance for the public opinion, and expect Idlib to be handed over as Magnier sayd and a major reconciliation with Assad and even the Kurds, finally overthrowing the hundred year Sykes Piquot carve up.

The Empire is dead. Long live the new Empire!

mcdonagh4
mcdonagh4
Mar 7, 2020 2:18 PM
Reply to  Dungroanin

A possible but unlikely outcome even though most of what you say is true . Erdogan is a minor tyrant with little charisma and fewer leadership skills whose grip on power is weakening as the mullahs and generals become unhappy with him.

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Mar 8, 2020 6:21 AM
Reply to  Dungroanin

We are watching the convoluted and contorted death throes of the Empire D.
Agree with your comment, and yep, both Elijah Magnier and Moon Of Alabama are great sources of info on the nefarious activities of the Neocon nutters.
After General Soleimani was assassinated, started going on Elijah Magnier’s Facebook page almost daily.
Personally, I think Erdoğan is a goner. Basically a dead man walking. He’s pissed off too many people, and granted, there was a mass purge after the coup attempt, but if he’s still in power in 1 year, I’ll print off this reply and eat it!

D'Esterre
D'Esterre
Mar 11, 2020 2:27 AM
Reply to  Gezzah Potts

Gezzah Potts: “….if he’s still in power in 1 year, I’ll print off this reply and eat it!”

Heh! Make sure that it’s on rice paper…

Gezzah Potts
Gezzah Potts
Mar 11, 2020 2:49 AM
Reply to  D'Esterre

I still think he’ll be gone; but we’ll know in a year anyway.
Lots of things changing rapidly D.

D'Esterre
D'Esterre
Mar 11, 2020 2:56 AM
Reply to  Gezzah Potts

Gezzah Potts: “I still think he’ll be gone…”

Oh yeah, I agree with you. But rice paper’s edible: wouldn’t think you’d want to waste stomach cramps on somebody like him!

ajbsm
ajbsm
Mar 7, 2020 9:46 AM

‘WWIII’ often pops up now in relation to geopolitical flashpoints…this has become much more explicit since the Ukraine coup in 2014. The West is the aggressor. It does seem though that always when push comes to shove, NATO/Israel/SA seem to realize they would probably ‘lose’ such a war.

mcdonagh4
mcdonagh4
Mar 7, 2020 2:19 PM
Reply to  ajbsm

Most of humanity will cease to exist the day that war begins !

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
Mar 10, 2020 2:23 AM
Reply to  mcdonagh4

Missing you already.

Barovsky
Barovsky
Mar 7, 2020 8:34 AM

The anonymous geostrategic genius who blogs as Moon of Alabama headlined on February 28th, “Syria — Deadly Bomb Strike Warns Turkey To End Its Escapades”, and this is only the latest in his series of articles arguing that Erdogan has manoeuvred himself into a position from which a checkmate can no longer be avoided.

Anonymous? Not exactly. His name is Bernhard and I believe he is based in Germany. And (not) amazingly, in a recent email exchange, when I asked him why he gets it right more often than wrong on everything from Boeing to Idlib, he put it down to reading everything, something a lot of the ‘commentators’ here obviously fail to do.

wardropper
wardropper
Mar 7, 2020 2:34 AM

Nobody should be contemplating the idea that Erdogan might quit NATO.
He should be EXPELLED from NATO and Europe should also immediately cease to have anything to do with him.
The man is a thug. An ignorant egomaniac cut from the same cloth as any other despotic thug.
Let him run Turkey. That is surely enough of a full-time job for anybody, and, frankly, the same goes for Trump and the USA. Leave other countries alone to make their own mistakes and learn from them.
Invading other countries because you have decided what is best for their inhabitants is a monstrous impertinence.

Jack_Garbo
Jack_Garbo
Mar 7, 2020 3:05 AM
Reply to  wardropper

Read the NATO rules:
Membership is by consensus.
First off, Turkey has already broken the “good neighbor respecting borders” with its invasion of Syria.
Second, ha, there’s no rule of Expulsion of Naughty members.
Third (unwritten) rule: We need every member to buy our stuff and not better, cheaper stuff from China or Russia.
Erdo’ knows this, so he can squeeze and stretch the rules, so long as he doesn’t quit, which he can at any time but won’t.
Let’s call it the new Catch-22: You can’t be expelled until you agree to leave.

wardropper
wardropper
Mar 7, 2020 4:00 AM
Reply to  Jack_Garbo

It’s okay, you can relax. I was not concerned with what is possible, but only with what ought to happen. That was what the exasperated tone of my comment was intended to convey.
I am extremely familiar with what the “authorities” who own everything today will permit.

Jack_Garbo
Jack_Garbo
Mar 7, 2020 4:41 AM
Reply to  wardropper

Ought, should, must, expect, are words I stopped using 30 yrs ago. They’re used by impotent against the powerful. As the Chinese say, “Dogs bark at the Moon, but it still shines.” I’ve been too long in the East to waste words; I tend to bite.

wardropper
wardropper
Mar 7, 2020 2:35 PM
Reply to  Jack_Garbo

Despite your “bite”, you are tacitly implying that “the powerful” have won.
I don’t give up so easily.
The powerful are only powerful in one sense. The power sense. And modern mankind consists of much more than that.
“Ought, should, must” are words which are the first step in any enterprise which ultimately succeeds.

Jack_Garbo
Jack_Garbo
Mar 7, 2020 10:36 PM
Reply to  wardropper

Like all those unblooded, you talk a good fight. The powerful are those holding the guns, not the car keys. Those boys (and a few girls) aren’t worried by your oughts or shoulds. Dogs barking at the Moon…let them bark or when they become an annoyance, shoot them.

wardropper
wardropper
Mar 8, 2020 12:19 AM
Reply to  Jack_Garbo

So I talk a good fight. But I’m not trying to convince anybody that the alternative to a thug with a gun is a spineless sheep. I’m assuming that without a gun even you would not consider yourself powerless…?
What do you know about my being “blooded”, or otherwise?
My point is whether being a mere alpha animal is a serious future for humanity, or just fashionable 20th-21st Century crowing.
You don’t have to be Christian, or even religious, to see that humanity is not evolving in an animal direction – just look at our useless teeth, weak sense of smell and slow running pace . . . But some of us are clearly not yet developed enough to let go of their four legs.

wardropper
wardropper
Mar 7, 2020 2:50 PM
Reply to  Jack_Garbo

I can’t resist asking, exactly whom do you bite? It’s quite conceivable that I might want to join you once we have an appropriate target.

Jack_Garbo
Jack_Garbo
Mar 7, 2020 10:32 PM
Reply to  wardropper

Sorry, Sir Shoulda, I gave up leading long ago, so you can’t follow (that’s what your “join” means). These days I work alone. My prey are the weaker of the parasites. I leave the powerful to the fools.

wardropper
wardropper
Mar 8, 2020 12:25 AM
Reply to  Jack_Garbo

I was joking. I don’t think we’d make a good team . . .

More
More
Mar 7, 2020 10:15 AM
Reply to  wardropper

“He should be EXPELLED from NATO”

Your comment would make a lot of sense if Turkey was not doing NATO’s nefarious bidding.

wardropper
wardropper
Mar 7, 2020 2:39 PM
Reply to  More

I fully realize that NATO is, essentially, just one more arm of USA international interference, but when I say he should be expelled, I am, of course, talking about NATO as it should have been. You are quite right in calling out NATO for what it is, but I believe my words can still make sense in the light of what should be. The alternative is giving up, and I’m not into that.

Seamus Padraig
Seamus Padraig
Mar 7, 2020 11:48 AM
Reply to  wardropper

While we’re dreaming big dreams here, ward, why not just disband NATO entirely?

wardropper
wardropper
Mar 7, 2020 2:44 PM
Reply to  Seamus Padraig

As NATO is today, I think we should work towards doing exactly that. But it will, of course, be a long haul.
Exposing the organization’s utter corruption, bit by bit, seems to be the best way, and there is plenty of easily-accessible information out there on that topic. Some are bothering to look at it and talk about it, but I don’t live in the dream world. With both feet on the ground, I work, I hope, and I do what I can.

Loverat
Loverat
Mar 7, 2020 1:29 AM

Idlib is World War 3 territory. In fact, it’s been the most likely flashpoint for 2 years now. Only Assad and Putin’s restraint has prevented nuclear wipe out. How crazy does that sound? Putin and Assad the only reason we are all still commenting here, our continuing existence despite Trumps May and Johnson best efforts.

I wrote to my MP two years ago setting out this scenario. His name, Jo Johnson. His reply, evidence of this support for war crimes and terror which will come back to bite him hard when the general public call for justice.

David Macilwain
David Macilwain
Mar 7, 2020 7:15 AM
Reply to  Loverat

I agree – and frankly I don’t know how Putin does it! Not just dealing with a man in a full-blown psychotic state but managing to come up with a plan that addresses what he pretends are his concerns with out conceding to any of the actual ones. All the troublesome “observation posts” will have to go south of the M4 highway, and if the Turkish military even thinks about doing joint patrols with Russia AND its terrorist companions they’ll have some cruise missile support to argue with.
I heard it declared on AJ today that Erdy and his Qaeda had hoped to retake Khan Shaikoun and Ma’arat al Numan, and will be disappointed. But who knows – it’s not over yet…

mcdonagh4
mcdonagh4
Mar 7, 2020 2:24 PM
Reply to  Loverat

Kashmir is at slightly greater risk of becoming the start point for WW3 ?

More
More
Mar 6, 2020 11:18 PM

Turkey can see and must acquiesce to the american forces occupying oil field in Syria.

That must be driving the Turks mad: How on earth the yanks came from the other side of the planet coming and now blantantly stealing oil from Syria but themeselfves the cannot equally steal something, for example, Idlib?

mcdonagh4
mcdonagh4
Mar 7, 2020 2:33 PM
Reply to  More

The world is currently awash in cheap and profit making oil . Although it is always about the oil as Rumsfeld admitted when The Bush family initiated this project in response to Saddam Hussein’s idiotic policies , these days oil is secondary to geopolitical face saving , neoliberal economic aims at global domination , and arms dealing .

Haltonbrat
Haltonbrat
Mar 6, 2020 10:37 PM

A British polling organisation, Ha! ha! ha!

Dungroanin
Dungroanin
Mar 7, 2020 10:34 AM
Reply to  Haltonbrat

Never heard of them.
Father and son operation?
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02947544/officers

A full link to their study including who, where and how they surveyed would have been fun to look at!

Guy
Guy
Mar 6, 2020 10:09 PM

I can only guess what was said behind closed doors during this last meeting at the Kremlin but here is my guess.Turkey will be allowed to save face but will have to abide to the previous agreement of de-escalation. The jihadists will have to put down their arms or be neutralized ,to use a polite term.