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WATCH: Prof Sunetra Gupta on LockdownTV

Professor Sunetra Gupta was one of the first scientists to publicly criticise the now widely-discredited Imperial Model. Her team’s work at Oxford suggested both that the coronavirus had been in the country much earlier than expected, and that consequently the infection fatality rate was far lower than either WHO or Imperial College had estimated. (She also appeared in our second list of experts coming out against the coronavirus hysteria).

In a wide-ranging interview with Unherd.com‘s Freddie Sayer, Prof Gupta talks antibodies, R0 numbers and much more.

Here are a few choice quotes:

  • “Different countries have had different lockdown policies, and yet what we’ve observed is almost a uniform pattern of behaviour”
  • “Infection Fatality Rate is less than 1 in 1000 and probably closer to 1 in 10,000.”
  • “Remaining in a state of lockdown is extremely dangerous”

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jen
jen
May 28, 2020 5:43 AM

Excerpt from an article which disagrees with Oxford’s COVID analysis – quoting economist Tim Hartford. Would appreciate peoples comments:

https://www.medicalbrief.co.za/archives/debate-rages-over-severely-flawed-imperial-study-that-sparked-the-uk-lockdown/

“Commenting on this University of Oxford research, Tim Hartford, UK economist writes in a Financial Times report that according to John Ioannidis, an iconoclastic epidemiologist, we know less than we think. But, writes Hartford, we are not completely ignorant.

He writes that alongside the COVID-19 death total, there are other clues to the truth. For example, thousands of people were evacuated from Wuhan city in late January and February and most of them were tested. A few tested positive and several were indeed symptom-free, but not the large majority the Oxford version of the tip-of-the-iceberg hypothesis would imply. The entire population of the town of Vò in Italy was repeatedly tested and, while half of the positive cases were asymptomatic, that is still much less than the Oxford model might lead us to expect.

So, Hartford writes, while it is possible that most of us could have been infected without knowing – and that herd immunity is within easy reach – it is not likely. That may explain why neutral experts have responded to the Oxford study with caution, and some concern that it might provoke a reckless response from individuals or policymakers.

So, what now, he asks?
Stay indoors if you want to save many lives and prevent health systems from being overwhelmed. The bitter experience of Italy and Spain demonstrates the importance of flattening the peak of the epidemic. That remains true even if, as we might hope, the epidemic is much milder and more widespread than we now believe. It might have been tempting to wait and gather more evidence – but faced with an exponentially rising pile of corpses, “wait and see” is not an option.

Health systems should expand capacity, buying more ventilators and more protective equipment for doctors and nurses. In all but the most optimistic scenarios we will need them now, we will need them later in the year and we will need them from time to time in the future. This crisis is teaching us that we should have had more spare capacity all along, despite the cost.

Test, test, test – and not only using the current tests to detect infection, but new ones for antibodies that should show whether people have already had the virus and have developed some degree of immunity. Sunetra Gupta says such tests may start to produce results in a matter of days.

Hartford writes that the epidemiologists are doing their best, but they are not omniscient. They need facts with which to work.”

Martillo
Martillo
May 25, 2020 12:31 PM

Anyone remember the infamous “AIDS virUS”?
We are all being played and it’s always the same song. Follow the money and the agenda.
To the masters of the universe….we are the virus and they want us gone, but meanwhile the milking of the herd goes on and the herd is grateful to the industrious pigs overseeing our Animal Farm dystopia.

The problem lies in nature itself…like the wolf pack that humanity unfortunately is.
Do you want to live in a “society” with 99 sheep in the pack and one wolf culling at its will or survive in a pack of wolves tearing one sheep to bits?
Blame nature that the sheeple are too meek, lazy and dumb to go on living and too blind to see the yellow fangs of the presstitutes, political bancksters and political filth that herd them around the slaughter house at their will.

wardropper
wardropper
May 26, 2020 2:45 AM
Reply to  Martillo

With the best will in the world, I cannot find it in me to blame Nature for anything. You might as well blame a wolf for killing a sheep, as if the wolf had a serious choice there – perhaps something along the lines of, “Well, perhaps I should be a more decent wolf and look for alternative means of satisfying my hunger besides slaughter. What about developing my agricultural skills a bit, so that I could cultivate turnips or something?”
A wolf is a wolf, a sheep is a sheep, and Nature is Nature. What’s remarkable about us humans, on the other hand, is that we have individual choices which the wolf and the sheep do not have. We can contemplate your question:

Do you want to live in a “society” with 99 sheep in the pack and one wolf culling at its will or survive in a pack of wolves tearing one sheep to bits?

And we can choose to answer it either as group-think – which is closer to the way animals react – or as individuals.
My answer is that I wish to live in a human society, where nobody is imitating either wolves or sheep, but instead using their human intelligence to create a rational perspective into which we ourselves, the wolves, the sheep and Nature, herself, fit harmoniously.
After so many thousands of years of evolution, I reckon the time has come to stop trying to choose which animal should be our preferred role model, and instead learn to be ourselves.
Some of us are sheep by nature, and some of us are wolves, but almost all of us have some measure of self-control – we have even created laws which demonstrate how important that self-control is, and I would hate to see it perish just because some people think we are nothing more than sophisticated beasts. The fact that we are currently governed by idiots is no excuse for giving up on our further evolution, and we could get into a very involved discussion if I were to propose that Darwin’s theories were well and good for their time and place, but they entirely overlooked the evolution of human thinking, which doesn’t appear to have any of the constraints of purely physical evolution.
Now there’s a dangerous proposition… I could never hope for a career in politics with views like that, could I?

wardropper
wardropper
May 26, 2020 3:48 AM
Reply to  wardropper

Just a P.S. to my rather long comment – a heartfelt thank you for the excellent video on HIV and AIDS! Remarkable how exactly that compelling evidence fits into our current CoVid scenario…

David
David
May 24, 2020 10:16 PM

Why doesn’t offguardian address the concern that the virus has not been isolated, purified and visualized making the tests completely meaningless? Every criticism takes as its point of departure that the virus exists

wardropper
wardropper
May 24, 2020 10:23 PM
Reply to  David

Just give us the links, David. I’m sure all of us here would be very happy to receive them. Thanks in advance.

wardropper
wardropper
May 25, 2020 3:29 AM
Reply to  Maxwell

Thanks Maxwell. I remembered seeing some of this information a couple of weeks ago, but I couldn’t remember the name. I’m old enough to remember my father spraying DDT on our garden vegetables, but my mother was trained as a fever nurse, so no viruses, bacteria, or insecticides of any description ever survived a scrupulous washing by her hands. That’s probably why I’m still alive, and in good health…

JudyJ
JudyJ
May 25, 2020 10:04 AM
Reply to  wardropper

Also this from Dr Andrew Kaufman:

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
May 26, 2020 12:19 AM
Reply to  JudyJ

Everyone should watch this. Thanks for posting it, JudyJ.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 26, 2020 9:37 AM
Reply to  JudyJ

I think (I keep no copies) I previously posted in one of the Off-Guardian’s COVID-19 BTLs (I have insufficient time to scroll through so many) that a/the etiological pathogen that causes COVID-19 was isolated as a virus by a team at McMaster University.

In the above video, Kaufman mentions that claim but does not go into much analysis of the it because the Sunnybrook team had not (either then or to his knowledge) published a detailed academic paper on their methodology. They have (since?) done so.

If you accept Rivers’ viral update of Koch, as interpreted by Kaufman then, while they may well have isolated a/the causative virus as claimed, they have not provably done so.

Norman Pilon
Norman Pilon
May 26, 2020 1:48 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

The point that Kaufman makes is that the ‘methodology’ used by the McMaster team — which to Kaufman is ascertainable from what little has been publicized by the team and which is really the crux of the issue — cannot result in the degree of purification and visualisation necessary to establish that anything like a virus has been isolated, let alone underpin any ‘proof’ that a virus is the causative agent of COVID-19 or any other disease.

Here is a short monograph by Kevin P. Corbett MSc PhD that makes essentially the same argument that Kaufman makes, that is to say, methodologically speaking:

Where is the Evidence for the Existence of the Novel Coronavirus?

I found that link HERE, at one of David Crowe’s invaluable sites . . .

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 27, 2020 6:33 AM
Reply to  Norman Pilon

“The point that Kaufman makes is that the ‘methodology’ used by the McMaster team — which to Kaufman is ascertainable from what little has been publicized by the team and which is really the crux of the issue — cannot result in the degree of purification and visualisation necessary to establish that anything like a virus has been isolated, let alone underpin any ‘proof’ that a virus is the causative agent of COVID-19 or any other disease.”

Hello Mr Pilon,

Thank you for the ‘condecension marks’ enclosing the word ‘methodology’.
I know what Kaufman’s point was as I watched the video. My post was to inform any readers here interested that a full academic paper on the work of the McMaster researchers, apparently unavailable to Kaufman when he recorded the video, has now (?) been published. It may be of use to some in amplifying the context of his remarks. I had to quit the post precipitately to attend to an urgent matter by teleconference and came back now to post the link to their paper but, as it is clear you wish to stamp your authority on this thread, I will defer and leave posting of the link to you. You’re welcome.

With regard to your link to Kevin P Corbett’s “Monograph One – Where is the Evidence for the Existence of the ‘Novel Coronavirus’, ‘SARS-CoV-2’?”, I found the seasoning a little too polemical for laughs but if you like your Monographs seasoned more strongly I thoroughly recommend his Monograph Two in which he takes the lid with the little holes in it right off.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 26, 2020 12:55 AM
Reply to  wardropper

Also, an amazing array of stuff here, going back over many years:

https://davidcrowe.ca/SciHealthEnv.php

I must admit, I only discovered David Crowe during the Covid-19 saga, but looking back on his work, he’s been active in tracing viral panics since the days of HIV-AIDs, which was the first thing he became suspicious about. It’s a long story, but from his perspective, the SARS-CoV-2 “viral panic” is just one more in a series of viral panics which take place from time to time, and was to some extent predictable.

ture sankara
ture sankara
May 24, 2020 1:13 PM

Bill Gates’s CORONAPOCALYPSE Plannedemic is failing because those of us who didn’t buy the MSM fear narrative exposed his Ministers of propaganda Fauci’s & Birk’s lies.

*”If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” — Joseph Goebbels*

Yet the cowards among us are too afraid to defy the lockdown.

*”Zombies, believe me, are more terrifying than colonists.”—Frantz Fanon*

Take to the streets to keep up the pressure! Just say NO to the CONJOB-19
Scandemic!

Invaders of the Body Snatchers (1965) Ending Scene — “They’re here!”
https://youtu.be/NIvH2dPolsM

’If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever.’—George Orwell 1984

We Will Win!

Paul
Paul
May 24, 2020 12:51 PM

The British government need to be held to account for what they’ve done.
Yes the lockdown should be ended immediately that’s a no brainier but it’s not enough.
There needs to be accountability for where the tax payers money is being spent.

The money given to fund vaccines and the money given to support the financial markets needs to be frozen until there’s an independent enquiry into this whole fiasco.

Every person and every business effected needs to be financially compensated no matter what the cost.

Funding needs to be given to have a proper health care system and information provided by what vitamins and nutrients are required to support your immune system.

A full public apology, followed by a swift resignation by every politician within the Tory government.

These politicians and Sage should be charged with deliberately misleading the public, charged with Treason and should spend their lives behind bars for crimes against humanity.

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
May 25, 2020 1:21 PM
Reply to  Paul

Every person and every business effected needs to be financially compensated no matter what the cost.

“no matter what the cost” is precisely the kind of so called thinking that resulted in the adoption of the “lockdown” measures in the first place.
“no matter what the cost” would only be a reasonable approach to policy-making in a world of unlimited resources. Trying to do something “no matter what the cost” will inevitably result in more harm than benefit.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 28, 2020 12:30 AM
Reply to  Steve Hayes

Every person and every business effected needs to be financially compensated no matter what the cost.

If you viewed the video to the end you will be aware that Professor Gupta pointed out that only a hundred years ago the average person lived in a permanent moderate lockdown. Despite having an empire on which the sun never set, apart from military service and the pursuit of a few specific vocations, relatively few ordinary Joes travelled more than 30 or 40 miles from their home in their entire lives, many not more than 20, and, when they did, the speed of long haul transport was such that most infections had burnt themselves out and committed the excess overboard before their ship reached its home port. And you know what? Disease, class exploitation and other man made miseries aside, their lives were as full of living as yours.

Nobody asked you to fly to Florida to hobnob with the Crazy Don or drive all over the UK to get a packet of fags or take the train from Luton to Doncaster and back for a tiddlewinks contest or buy all those baubles that require immense depletions of finite resources, destruction of habitat and releases of toxins plus national and international movements of people and goods just to keep the more tawdry aspects of your consumerism habits fed, all with their mostly invisible collateral environmental damage from bleached corals to greatly amplified risks of epidemics and pandemics, but now you want everyone else to be put into even more hock just to stop your bizarrely overblown, latter-day self-entitlement costing you a penny?

So now you know the real cost of an epi-pandemic, like enormous, whether it was created just to scare you or to thin you out like carrots in a row or was massively misjudged or was fabricated cover for an early 2084 or ran from or was ripped out of its rapidly disappearing jungle home, or something else that is none of the above, how much would you be prepared to pay for an epi-/pandemic contingency cost to be incorporated into your general taxes or health insurance contributions or airfares, etc? Whine whine, sweet fuck all, whine whine, downvote downvote? Thought so.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 28, 2020 12:35 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Erratum: for “tiddlewinks” read “tiddlywinks”.

Andy Brent
Andy Brent
May 24, 2020 1:06 AM

I don’t actually believe ‘They’ can accurately diagnose coronavirus. So, where do we go from there? Admit that a lot of the numbers were never even diagnosed – ‘lump ’em in if you suspect’ – and the diagnosis is unreliable? After all, what are this year’s flu stats? Let’s get back to life. And FREEDOM.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
May 24, 2020 10:26 AM
Reply to  Andy Brent

FREEDOM does NOT exist. You are mortal, your every choice is dictated by rules, regulations and laws, your life opportunities are determined by your psychology, your upbringing, your genetic background, your socialisation, your appearance, your wealth or poverty and your luck, and any residual freedom ought not interfere with the freedom of others. It’s a narrow cage, overall.

The Coming Revolution
The Coming Revolution
May 24, 2020 5:45 PM

FREEDOM does NOT exist.

Yet I choose to reply to your comment. Maybe next time, I’ll choose not to. I’ll think it over first.

What is generally meant by freedom in practical terms, that is in our earthly life, is not some ideal and heavenly situation where we are not influenced by any ideas, for, in that case we would not act as all. There is always a purpose for our actions even if we are not conscious of it, so we are always motivated to some extent, that is, moved to act.

Of course our motivations are determined by our education and a lot of other things, but the practical fact of being able to ponder and compare different courses of action, then be able and let to choose after premeditation which one to follow, is what we refer to when speaking of freedom.

To me, after premeditation, I choose to believe that determinism does not imply fatalism and does certainly not exclude practical freedom.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 25, 2020 4:31 AM

“Yet I choose to reply to your comment.”

You also seem to have chosen not to reply to any extent, in any way to his central point, disguised as a leftover:

“…and any residual freedom ought not interfere with the freedom of others.”

Any reason for that conspicuous omission?

The Coming Revolution
The Coming Revolution
May 25, 2020 8:04 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

I think I see your point now. Maybe we are using the same word “freedom” but refer to different conceptions of it. To illustrate my point, and based of your comments, you probably would qualify someone who always does as he pleases without any restraints as exercising his freedom, but I’d probably qualify him as a slave.

Acting impulsively and without restraint is not freedom, as I conceive it; it’s exactly the opposite, for, one is acting thoughtlessly; but I understand that in this day and age it is perceived as being a manifestation of one’s “freedom”.

It is interesting how word “freedom” came to mean exactly the opposite of what it originally meant. It is the same story with the word “socialism” and “communism”.

To revert to Richard’s comment, the point I wanted to make is that, we, as human beings have an innate ability to ponder over things, weigh and appreciate courses of action using reason and then, if not hindered by any self-proclaimed authority, act according to our own conclusions; that action, if born out of meditation couldn’t possibly interfere with others.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 26, 2020 2:06 AM

“I think I see your point now. Maybe we are using the same word “freedom” but refer to different conceptions of it. To illustrate my point, and based of your comments, you probably would qualify someone who always does as he pleases without any restraints as exercising his freedom,”

You think you see my point? Think on. Reverting to Richard, as you did,

“the point I wanted to make is that, we, as human beings have an innate ability to ponder over things, weigh and appreciate courses of action using reason and then, if not hindered by any self-proclaimed authority, act according to our own conclusions; that action, if born out of meditation couldn’t possibly interfere with others.”

Crikey. What do you call that sort of meditation? The Way of the All Encompassing Navel?

The Coming Revolution
The Coming Revolution
May 26, 2020 4:06 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Crikey. What do you call that sort of meditation? The Way of the All Encompassing Navel?

I am sure most people that come to this site come from English-speaking countries; I am not, and it is amazing that you should associate the word “meditation” with some Oriental discipline. A little superficial association don’t you think?

From Merriam Webster:

Born out of: has occurred because of, inspired by, etc.
Meditation: the act or process of meditating;
Meditating: engage in contemplation of reflection.

There you might get my meaning but don’t bother to reply.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 27, 2020 2:34 PM

Please! Allow me the ‘freedom’ to bother to reply before I have to tear it out of your presumptuous grasp ‘without restraint’.

NOUN (UK & US English)

mass noun

Self-indulgent or excessive contemplation of oneself or a single issue, at the expense of a wider view.

‘he lapsed into his customary navel-gazing’
as modifier: ‘navel-gazing New Age types’

Synonyms: brooding, self-analysis, soul-searching, heart-searching, introversion, self-observation, self-absorption

— Lexico.com

Lexico.com is a new collaboration between Dictionary.com and Oxford University Press (OUP) to help users worldwide with everyday challenges

.

Meditation has proven difficult to define as it covers a wide range of dissimilar practices in different traditions. In popular usage, the word “meditation” and the phrase “meditative practice” are often used imprecisely to designate practices found across many cultures. These can include almost anything that is claimed to train the attention of mind or to teach calm or compassion. […] Claudio Naranjo noted that “The word ‘meditation’ has been used to designate a variety of practices that differ enough from one another so that we may find trouble in defining what meditation is.” A 2009 study noted a “persistent lack of consensus in the literature” and a “seeming intractability of defining meditation.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation

See also
~/wiki/Jewish_meditation
~/wiki/Christian_meditation
[…]

So, little Grasshopper. Now that you have become the arrow or the sail or the nail or the knife: what do you call your sort of meditation? The Way of the All Encompassing Navel?

The Coming Revolution
The Coming Revolution
May 29, 2020 7:07 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

I concede to that; I may sound presumptuous, but then It may be because I have arguments which I’d like to share and discuss. So what did you do about it? Have you put forward some counter-arguments related to the question raised, “what does human freedom mean and does it exist?”? Have you expressed your thoughts about it to show that I am wrong and drive me out of my shallow and vain presumption? Or is it easier to tell me so and hide away, or make quotes and joke about them?

Then, you took the trouble to quote what OTHERS have to say about the word meditation!!!!! Let me get this straight: do you mean that you can’t guess the meaning of a word within a sentence in a particular context? What is the context of these comments? Are we discussing some tradition, some mental discipline or practice? Is this a New age website? No. It’s a general discussion about freedom. What is the general idea conveyed by the word “meditation” in all what you quoted? To think deeply, that’s all. And thinking is far from being exclusively about oneself at the expense of a wider view. If you have given up your own thinking abilities and must relate on what OTHERS have decided you should understand by “meditation” being aware but nevertheless ignoring what meaning the word naturally and originally conveys, it’s your problem. And what use could it be to know the different particular meanings of words in specific contexts if you ignore the natural, original meanings of them? To meditate is to think deeply, to reflect and we don’t need anyone else’s opinion to know that, if we are aware already of the original historical idea the word conveys; and “meditation” is the process of meditating. That’s all there is to it really, and that’s the important thing because from there on, one can adapt that meaning to particular situations or use the same words to mean similar actions or states in other contexts. So again, these are my views: Human being are born free and are naturally good, that is, we act naturally for the general interest of the community. The freedom resides in our ability to think things over, weigh the different courses of actions before us, meditate, reflect deeply upon them. Then, the actions born out of, inspired by, such meditations or reflections, if not coerced by an arbitrary, unjustified, self-proclaimed authority and the social, political and economic system it creates, cannot possibly go against the general interest. The reality however is that coercion is all around us, but our ability to act freely cannot be taken away from us unless killed off. On the other hand, stating that freedom does not exist because we can’t exercise it is like cutting off the wings of all the existing birds, then stating that birds are born without wings. These are general ideas in which the word meditation means only the act of thinking deeply.

And last but not least: “little grasshopper, nail, arrow, knife linking to a website about the Jewish tradition of circumcision (?), Way of Encompassing Navel, etc”. I don’t know what to make of it. Are these arguments? Don’t think so. Sarcasm, belittlement of the adversary, intimidation? May be. Are these the tools you use when challenged? Have you contributed with anything at all to the question raised (what is human freedom and died it exist?)? Not a word. Well then, no point in fumbling about any longer. Have a nice day.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 30, 2020 3:05 PM

‘Have you put forward some counter-arguments related to the question raised, “what does human freedom mean and does it exist?”? Have you expressed your thoughts about it…’

This is an inhospitable milieu for much of that sort of behaviour but, to some consequently limited degree, yes: see my response to wardropper.

“…and drive me out of my shallow and vain presumption?”

My purely personal, ‘fuck you too’ identification of your ‘presumption’ referred only to your very inadequately quantified ‘probability’ that:

“…you probably would qualify someone who always does as he pleases without any restraints as exercising his freedom…”

No. I would classify him or her as prone to inopportunely relaxing his or her anal sphincter. I don’t recall any (thus also compoundingly presumptuous) reference to ‘vanity’.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 31, 2020 2:41 AM

“And last but not least: “little grasshopper, nail, arrow, knife linking to a website about the Jewish tradition of circumcision (?), Way of Encompassing Navel, etc”. I don’t know what to make of it.”

“Little Grasshopper” was the affectionate name given to an acolyte character by his master character in an ancient tv series about the life of learning Shaolin Kung Fu in, I think, a Shaolin monastery in Henan. From what I was able to gather, he would graduate when he could defeat his master, who was totally blind and who wore great, big totally white, theatrical contact lenses to prove it, but who could see everything around him anyway, especially little insect combatants. I don’t know if Little Grasshopper ever did graduate because the Shaolin lifestyle didn’t suit me and I was an early dropout. Meanwhile, elsewhere, some Zen masters developed the fine conceit that master archers become proficient by completely losing all sense of themselves and their years of hard practice when loosing an arrow, becoming instead the arrow itself. That led me to codwondering if Christian meditative tradition has it that Christ became the nails or if Jewish mohels became their knives (or, if they were real he-man mohels, their teeth). As for the Way of the All Encompassing Navel, that’s a reference to the term “navel gazing”, which was a standard way of describing either self-importance or introspection, usually the fomer, where the proportion of the former to the latter pretty much reflected the prevalence of personal pomposity in the sea-locked little, intensely navel-gazing, highly unmeditative–even boorish and downright insensitive–community in which I grew up. What to make of it? Nothing. A bit of pompous, over-elaborated fun. Fooling around. Along with all my other accomplishments, I’m pretty good at being a bit of a prat too.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
May 25, 2020 9:12 AM

But, what if your ‘free’ act is against one of the myriad laws that encompass all societies? Or upsets the ‘freedom’ of others? the only ‘free’ man is Crusoe, sans Friday, but even he is subject to the unfreedom of morbidity, mortality and chance. Believe me, one way or another, you’ll be ‘free’ when you are dead.

wardropper
wardropper
May 24, 2020 10:27 PM

Well, let’s call it “relative freedom” if you prefer. Long experience has convinced me that human beings are not on the same spectrum as artificial intelligence, whereas your diagnosis would seem to be a useful first step in pronouncing us all sophisticated machines, ready to serve that artificial intelligence.
I’m not buying it. Some will.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 25, 2020 4:47 AM
Reply to  wardropper

“…your diagnosis would seem to be a useful first step in pronouncing us all sophisticated machines, ready to serve that artificial intelligence.”

How do you figure that? After listing many of the factors that might serve to limit an individual’s actual freedom, which could be as wide as their freedom from those limiting factors, stated and unstated, allows, he lists only one, simple, further, operational, ethical constraint:

“…and any residual freedom ought not interfere with the freedom of others.”

“Fuck ethics, it’s my freedom that counts” being your ‘philosophy’? Or not?

wardropper
wardropper
May 25, 2020 2:08 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

It was simply my response to “FREEDOM does NOT exist”, since I know it does. You rightly point to the ethics behind “any residual freedom ought not to interfere with the freedom of others”, but I do not consider freedom to live either in that residue, or to be completely defined by the many “factors that might serve to limit” that freedom.
My argument, as stated, was that the thinking of human beings is not on the same spectrum as artificial intelligence, and the consequence of allowing oneself to be sucked into the current fashion of imagining that it is (computers rule the world in chess, for example), will inevitably undermine our freedom to think, which is, in the end, the basis of all freedom.
Thinking has evolved naturally (obviously to different degrees) in human beings, and it is my conviction that it should therefore be USED naturally, and not arbitrarily compared to digital processes which were invented by us in the first place.
This leads us into complicated philosophy, so I won’t write a book on it here, but I hope my drift is perceptible.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 30, 2020 2:21 PM
Reply to  wardropper

“It was simply my response to “FREEDOM does NOT exist”, since I know it does.”

So you, or some part of your cognition, is some kind of standard reference of “FREEDOM”, a bit like the piece of metal in Paris is the standard reference for the meter, or was before they changed the standard reference for the meter to a measure of the time-based aspect of the radiation emitted by an isotope of a natural element and the speed of light in the same Einsteinian frame of reference? Or is it more like a standard reference form of synesthesia (or, more recently, in the neuroscience magisterium, meter-like ideasthesia)?

What if it’s just an abstract noun, completely meaningless factually or emotionally in any magisterium, until it’s defined, with varying degrees of freedom, explicitly or implicitly, by constraining adjectives–adjectives of single words, volumes, or entire histories of peaples–relating to time, space, place, group or individual perception or ideation, etc.? And your “knowledge” is just one part of the individuated knowledge of all of us, now and back to times before any homo sapiens could claim any “knowledge” as their own?

“Thinking has evolved naturally (obviously to different degrees) in human beings, and it is my conviction that it should therefore be USED naturally, and not arbitrarily compared to digital processes which were invented by us in the first place.”

I think it was Bill Gates (ironically, at this moment in projected villification time) who had an argument with one of his teachers over that. The teacher made the same point and Bill replied that we were natural therefore, naturally, so was whatever we, in some combination of together in groups or separately as individuals, think or make. And some point along that line Vernadsky’s and de Chardin’s widely divergent approaches, apparently from quite different magisteria*, to remarkably interconnected concepts of a noosphere, also become relevant to this here and now.

“This leads us into complicated philosophy, so I won’t write a book on it here, but I hope my drift is perceptible.”

I think we need more than philosophy: something that includes, at this moment, a lifetime learning ‘real’ intellectual humility: something that our successors (should we not have already pre-obliterated them) may not have attained any more than we have, even though they may have become more accustomed to the dissonance, across the intellectual board, that positing simple everyday arrogance as the opposite of the complexity of ‘real’ intellectual humilty engenders. The children of those who stormed out of Stravinsky concerts because he outraged their sense of historical respect with what they heard as ugly, culturally disjointed noise now hear the same music as a cool continuation of the work of even older dead dudes. To make quantum physics, which meaningfully exists–other than in the observable universe–only as a body of non-mathematically confusing mathematics, we have to construct “interpretations” which are intrinsically nonsense to our outraged sense of culturally induced ‘understanding’, e.g. the ‘Copenhagen Interpretation’ (of Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg) which says that certain, quite concrete and quantifiable natural phenomena do not exist until some unspecified observer looks at them, but then they do, or the ‘Many Worlds Interpretation’ (of Hugh Everett) which says that at every point in time when there can be a distinct quantum outcome, the entire universe splits into an old and new universe which thereafter simultaneously co-exist, so we, here and now, inhabit one specific universe of many simultaneously co-existing universes in which, over all, the logical consequences of every possible combination of prior events which have led to us in this here and now are all out there, each with other ‘us’es (excluding those of us who are already dead because of some misfortune that has befallen us in the interim), all moving forward into even more universes, each containing every possible combination of the ‘us’es or the ‘corps’es of tomorrow. What unites these thoughtfully and experentially ridiculous ‘interpretations’ is that, more formally fomulated and constrained than the loose descriptions just given, they (and many less-popular others) all must necessarily satisfy the ineffable mathematical formulations, which–alone–are indubitably experentially correct: if they weren’t you could not be reading this uncertainty-asserting response to your certainty-based proposition: the technology linking us could, quite literally, not have been built without taking the underlying, apparently unhinged mathematical ‘models’ into account.

For some lay-readable insights into this quantum non sense as they inti- and ultlti-mately effect matters underlying the bizarrely lopsided view of this series of articles (and more), you might care to look at the layman-friendly writings of mathematician Roger Penrose before and after he shacked up conjecturally with anaesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff.

Finally, have you ever heard of ‘wetwear’? This is a term that was coined to denote the conjunction, at the circuitry level, of “natural”, living, organic, ‘analogue’ components (living cells, e.g. neurons) with human-devised and -fabricated, silicon “digital processes” (the basis of current von Neumann–‘Princeton’ and later ‘Harvard’ architectured) computers and super-computers. Input/hardware/firmware/(self-modifying) software/output→input/wetware+hardware/(self-modified) firmware/(self-modifying) software/output. Maybe, when you have a moment to spare, you would like to hear yourself of it? So far it has only just staggered into the beginnings of the ‘proof of concept’ stage but later, combined with future ‘quantum computing’, which is only just staggering out of the prototyping stage, it could well be of interest to at least some of your hopefully non-pre-obliterated descendants. And, perhaps, many more than just some…

Note: many currently silicon-based AI proponents (if not advanced theoreticians) will cite Alan Turing’s intelligence test (akin to Koch and Loeffler’s postulates in disease etiology) as some kind of criterion useful in determining the attainment of machine-based AI, which it would be if Turing had not included both ‘equivalent to’ and ‘indistinguishable from’ (to echo a currently similar spuriousity in polemical epidemiology) in his formulation. So meanwhile the troglodyte assertion, born of incomplete understanding (in both cases) manages to give a semblance of reason. But there are many more things in their and our universe, Mr Wardropper, than are dreamt of in their or our philosophies and, one day, one or more of them might impact planet earth to significant relevatory effect.

Apologies for the delay in replying. So much to do, so much human intent (as distinguished from ‘viral intent’ and other adjuvant microbiological intents, and the persistence thereof, somewhat equivalent to and co-existing with and augmenting primitive neo-Darwinistic** ‘genetic intent’), so much else going on, such rapidly diminishing practical geriatric capability.
_____________________
* See Stephen Jay Gould
** roughly speaking, Darwin+Mendel

wardropper
wardropper
May 30, 2020 5:36 PM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Honestly, I did not make the claim your bloated interpretation of my first sentence implies. Given a little goodwill, it really ought to go without saying that I fully realize that what I “know” does not necessarily constitute reality for anyone else. However, by the same token, you can’t forbid me, or anyone else, to know something, on the grounds that it might not coincide with other people’s experience.
“Freedom”, assuming we’re not talking about staying out of jail, is a philosophic matter, and, as such, I happen to have given it a lot of thought. You may have come to completely different conclusions, as is your perfect right.

wardropper
wardropper
May 30, 2020 5:46 PM
Reply to  wardropper

P. S. I can see that my reply does not match the respectful tone of yours, and I do apologize. You are quite right about intellectual humility.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jun 1, 2020 1:08 AM
Reply to  wardropper

“I can see that my reply does not match the respectful tone of yours, and I do apologize.”

No problem. (1) I didn’t notice, perhaps because (2) I’m sometimes pretty disrespectful myself, often unintentionally but not always. Either way it sorts out those who are talking from attitude rather than thought or experience or genuine insight, etc. Those who have something to say seldom care. If you put out something that is to the point of a discussion but be could be seen as a bit disrespectful, or if anything you put out meets with only increasingly forceful repetition and/or clearly ruffles feathers and throws up accusations of ad hominems, etc., then you know you might as well give up and talk about the weather instead. Or switch to intentional mode and have some fun.

I’ve never been big on respect. In itself it’s the currency of bullies with an security problem and authoritarians with a social problem. It’s also a movable goal: someone who has earned respect (the only legitimate way to get it) on Tuesday may blow it all away on Friday. Concern and care for others (which have nothing to do with ‘love’) on an individual level (only), and preferably unnanounced and unadvertised care and concern at that, whether they are others who are ‘worthy’ of ‘respect’ or not, is way more important. Respect is best reserved for things like their legal rights.

wardropper
wardropper
Jun 1, 2020 3:42 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

A very accommodating reply. Thank you again. When confronted by “difficult” people on the topic of respect, I try to assess whether they command respect, or simply demand it, but I am pretty sure that quite a few people can’t even see the difference in that sublety of the English language. It’s a fine thing to be here among people who are genuinely doing their best with some pretty upsetting topics these days.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
May 25, 2020 9:15 AM
Reply to  wardropper

I do believe in the ‘freedom’ of resisting impositions on your existence, whether motivated by malice or misplaced ‘benevolence’.But whether it extends to violence, or worse, depends on the imposition. Compulsory vaccination seems to me to be an affront too far.

Charlotte Russe
Charlotte Russe
May 24, 2020 1:05 AM

ROUND ONE

Professor Sunetra Gupta correctly summed up the situation when she said lockdowns are a middle-class luxury which the poor cannot afford. It’s also a luxury small businesses can’t afford or small property owners who count on rental income for their economic survival. But most importantly, lockdowns are a predicament liberal democracies cannot enforce without becoming totalitarian.

And this brings me to the millions donated by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation to the Imperial College. In 2018, the Imperial College received $14.5 million in grants from the Gates Foundation to improve and expand access to health care in developing countries. Euphemistically this means testing new and improved vaccines on indigenous populations. The Imperial College statistical model is singled out as a reliable predictor of COVID-19 doom and gloom, because Gates and the Davos bloodsuckers are interested in restructuring Western societies. An apocalyptic virus predicted to kill millions creates an adequate amount of terror to garner acceptance for lockdowns, especially if the public is told it’s “only” until we “flatten the curve.” But what happens when the lockdown persists after the curve has long been flattened. Then it becomes obvious a medical emergency is being hyped to give justification for authoritarianism.

Interestingly, on April 23 Gates released a memo entitled “Pandemic 1: The First Modern Pandemic” where he says: “This is like a world war, except in this case, we’re all on the same side.” He describes the risks of opening the economy too soon, as well as thoughts about what we can expect from various treatments and vaccines in the near future. It appears Gates, envisions a future fraught with deadly pandemics, inasmuch as he labeled COVID-19 “Pandemic 1.” I guess, the coronavirus is just “round one”
in a planned series of terrifying medical events aimed to gain public acceptance for: heightened surveillance, contact tracing, drone monitoring, forced quarantines, and mandatory vaccines.

The only way populations can extricate themselves from this Gates medical behemoth is by lifting the lockdowns and proving the predictions were totally wrong.

Novicurious
Novicurious
May 24, 2020 10:45 AM

And of course it will just be coincidental if those who are vaccinated for pandemic 1 are most likely to be “infected” during pandemic 2, or any other so-called pandemic coming our way.

Charlotte Ruse
Charlotte Ruse
May 24, 2020 11:31 AM
Reply to  Novicurious

Good point. Often those who take
flu shots get a bad case of influenza.

Andy Brent
Andy Brent
May 24, 2020 12:52 AM

My postman this morning was really chuffed. I asked why, and he showed me a note the sender had stuck on a package to me: ‘Thanks, Postie, for all your work during Coronavirus.’ ‘I don’t really believe in this Coronavirus,’ he told me. ‘But it’s nice to get a bit of appreciation, whatever the cause!’ So I gave him a hug and told him I appreciate him too. Good bloke.

gordon
gordon
May 23, 2020 11:31 PM

her and her family have made millions from the germ theory
you can see it in her eyes
guilt treading on egg shells
all these models are masonic lies

a day of reykoning will come to these gangs counter gangs and pseudo gangs
selling souls dollars pounds and sheckles

Kalen
Kalen
May 23, 2020 11:08 PM

Great interview but I have few points to make.

I agree with professor Gupta that SC2 ct-qPCR testing is worthless, provides no reliable data as it is unspecific and returns positives for Influenza and other common viruses but sorry, criticizing serological tests with legacy and legitimacy of 100 years of successful application, a tests that do not systematically produce false positives is disingenuous and unfair.

The small number of serological tests’ errors are procedural only while most of these are interpretative errors due to confusion about immune response lag. Say Monday one may test IgA negative but by Friday becomes test positive for IgA then in some time later tests negative for IgA but positive for IgM and/or IgG.

It is not a failure of serological test as supposedly “confusing” for laymen results are due to 7-10 days of lag between inoculation and development of specific group of antibodies which levels vary in times .

Note that many typical (quick) serological tests used in epidemiology do not report levels of antibodies necessary for acquiring active immunity of individual but that is clinical not epidemiological testing issue as epidemiologists seeks to address first of all exposure of population to pathogen and to calculate IFR, not directly assess population immunity.

In fact while serological tests are specific they are subject to certain sensitivity thresholds I.e, some very low levels of antibodies may be missed but still it is not an error but a feature of the test itself having to do with establishment of time snapshot of LOWER limit of population exposure. And hence if test gives 7% of exposure it means that at least 7% or more of population was exposed and that they have a chance to develop in days or weeks some level of immunity precisely determined by clinical testing.

And hence serological tests, approved by FDA under medical emergency rules, are adequate and reliable for epidemiological studies of population exposure and as such over fifty published serological studies world wide must be understood .

Also assuming by professor Gupta that death data are most reliable when up to 90% are blatantly and deliberately misclassified as COVID deaths takes away a lot of credibility of the interview as Gupta seemingly trying to not to upset some important people and make no big ripples amid ubiquitous COVID propaganda terror.

Philippe
Philippe
May 24, 2020 11:04 AM
Reply to  Kalen

Also assuming by professor Gupta that death data are most reliable when up to 90% are blatantly and deliberately misclassified as COVID deaths …

I too was waiting for her to comment on the unreliability of the test.

I suppose as a Professor at Oxford, she may have to tread a little carefully so I don’t hold it against her or think the omission unduly diminishes the credibility of the other points she made. I was actually quite surprised she went as far as she did with some of her points.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 26, 2020 12:58 AM
Reply to  Kalen
Harry hopkins
Harry hopkins
May 23, 2020 9:23 PM

A great experience today and one which confirms my opinion that the great majority of NON GUARDIANISED working people really are wise to the fraudulent nature of this whole scamdemic.

My wife got in severe panic mode earlier in the week not because of the ‘virus’ but because our washing machine broke down. The thought of going for a prolonged time without this modern bit of labour saving kit had a far more devastating effect on my good lady than any world catastrophe dreamed up by Neil Ferguson and promulgated by our excuse for a Prime minister. An on line trip around the major domestic appliance suppliers met with a mixed response. The one that would ‘never knowingly be undersold’ isn’t supplying white goods full stop. Other big shops would supply a machine but wouldn’t fit it or come into the house but would simply leave it outside the front door. Nor would they take the old one away unless it was outside the house. Now, as a senior citizen I’m pretty fit and well but lugging a concrete filled washing machine from my kitchen to my drive-way single handed and wrestling a new one in was a proposition that seemed, shall we say, a mite challenging.

My wife found a machine she wanted and delivery was scheduled for today and I would love to tell you the company involved but I refrain for reasons that will become apparent. The various E-mails and texts and tracking info were very comprehensive but the company stressed that the safety of the delivery men was paramount and that we had to maintain the two meter distance when the men arrived and that they couldn’t enter the house.
I said to my wife the night before to get some cash and put it in an envelope and when the delivery men arrived to leave things to me. Two really nice pleasant blokes arrived having travelled many miles on their round trip and straight away asked if I had an old machine to get rid of. “I have” I said “but I’m afraid it’s in the kitchen as I couldn’t get it outside myself”. “That’s OK” said the older of the two, “if you don’t mind us going inside your house we’ll take it away for you”. Encouraged by this positive spirit of good customer service I thought I’d chance my arm–” You couldn’t consider taking the new one inside and actually fitting it for me as well could you?” “If you’re happy about us doing that we’ll be happy to oblige” came the much welcome reply.

It didn’t take them long. Old machine out, new machine in, plugged in, switched on, checked and paperwork completed. A normal delivery and fitting service in other words. I love talking to people who do work for me and always ask them about themselves and what kind of day they’re having. Joy and more joy when I learned that they both thought that the whole ‘virus’ business was a total scam sensationalised beyond belief and asked if I had heard the news about Cummings being in trouble for his trip to Durham during lock down? In fifteen minutes chat with these two ‘workers’ I heard more common sense than I’ve heard in the last two months from my middle class, well educated ‘Guardianised’ neighbours who’s lives are blighted by fear and panic. And of course I let the men know my own feelings on the subject. I thanked them very appreciatively and as they were leaving gave them an envelope with some cash in it. The older of the two was very taken with this gesture and spontaneously offered his hand which I gladly shook with gusto.

Don’t you just think that personal relationships and how you approach and treat other people bring out the best or worst in them? By not treating these two men as if they had the plague and simply relating to them as if everything was normal we did indeed establish a ‘normal’ friendly, relationship.
The washing machine is working well. My wrists no longer have to wring out my shirts and my day was made by meeting two salt of the earth types who don’t buy into the ‘panicdemic’. But I’m sure you can understand why the name of the company must remain anonymous. After all, a two meter distance and not coming into the house isn’t really compatible with a full fitting service topped off with a warm handshake—but it sure as hell made my day and made me feel that the tide is turning against the shysters who have got us into this unholy mess.

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc
May 23, 2020 9:55 PM
Reply to  Harry hopkins

Harry hopkins, I do apologise, but I have got to post this again – courtersey of Clark (rumoured ex moderator of Craig Murray’s blog) It looks as boring as sh1t, but just be patient wait for it. I would never even think of doing that. I even like the drumming.

“Thrash Metal Washing Machine”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dIeT6tsauA

Tony xx

George Mc
George Mc
May 24, 2020 9:48 AM
Reply to  tonyopmoc

Clark was an ex-moderator on CM? Now that is interesting.

May Hem
May Hem
May 23, 2020 10:28 PM
Reply to  Harry hopkins

Loved your story, Harry. I have also found that the more highly educated my good friends are, in general, the more they show gullibility. And I thought they were intelligent! Another friend of mine has not been well educated (except by life), and she is far more aware. Most gullible friend, am sad to say, is a medical doctor living in Germany who I’ve known and liked for over 30 years.

Sofia
Sofia
May 24, 2020 7:03 PM
Reply to  Harry hopkins

This is exactly my experience. Most of my friends on Facebook and Twitter are very pro lock down. They find my attitude and posts really baffling but what I’ve found is that there are also many who disagree with the lock down but remain silent. I started off quietly, posting an alternative view here and there but now I’ve gone unapologetically full rant anti lockdown. But the other day I decided to just start talking to random people in the street about this crazy situation and most of them agreed. I think there is a danger of being too infected by social media and msm thinking that it is real life attitudes when in fact most normal people are much more sensible and less brain washed than we imagine. It gives me hope.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 25, 2020 5:21 AM
Reply to  Harry hopkins

Good to hear you had your new artificial human being and its associated artificial human beings (manufacture, transport, maintenance, power, etc) replaced by such co-operative indirectly hired help. Pity all those extra artificial people’s overconsumption of planetary resources, such as your dishwasher and your vacuum cleaner and your motor chariot and your hols in France, etc., have augmented the planetary load of real human beings such as you and your wife alone to the extent of engendering the very conditions that help give rise to the rapid spread of opportunistic diseases such as COVID-19 as well as the increasing impoverishment of those who cannot even dream of having a washing machine and whose idea of an overseas break has to be confined to a one-way trip on an overcrowded leaky boat in the Mediterranean. Give your wife a kiss from them. And don’t join any dots, you never know where they’ve been.

John Pretty
John Pretty
May 23, 2020 9:00 PM

I’m pleased to see this here. I was aware of it, but had not viewed it until tonight.

I actually much preferred Freddie’s recent discussion with Karol Sikora, which was briefly banned, but then reinstated by youtube.

Prof Gupta seems to be basically saying that there are too many variables, too many unknowns to model it accurately. Half an hour to not say very much at all. It was good though to see her suggesting that the ending of “lockdown” would be a good thing.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 25, 2020 6:53 AM
Reply to  John Pretty

“Prof Gupta seems to be basically saying that there are too many variables, too many unknowns to model it accurately. Half an hour to not say very much at all.”

Per sentence:

  1. ‘Not really’ or ‘not quite but, rather, much more than that’
  2. Not so. Rather, half an hour to say a great deal more than all of the “experts” lined up in the extraordinary ‘libertarian harangue’ (her words) being conducted by–on this subject– this unfortunately shoddily partisan site, both BTL (if unavoidably given its admirably inclusive publication policy) and, unfortunately (thus) provocatively overencouraged even despite the massive MSM promulgation of another, different monolithic view, ATL.

“It was good though to see her suggesting that the ending of “lockdown” would be a good thing.”

Could, after scrupulous consideration of the epidemiological evidence, properly assessed in light of equally properly assessed, recently emerging clinical developments and evidence therefrom, set against the extraordinary external costs of lockdown–socially, politically, economically and medically.

Personally, I am still unsure of the binary measure of death/recovery as a useful criterion in a gentech era, but perhaps the caution informing that uncertainty will be more evident in viral or adjuvant epidemics yet to come. Meanwhile it still looks to me like a possibly irrelevant binary function of the cultural disease of our mind than a supportably major property of this particular SARS-CoV-2 virus.

Alan Tench
Alan Tench
May 23, 2020 8:58 PM

This is surely one of the most depressing images yet (caption: A member of staff kitted out in PPE plays kick about during a training session at Liverpool’s Melwood Training Ground)-
comment image?imwidth=480

kim
kim
May 23, 2020 8:12 PM

I hoped that the exposing of Cummings and earlier Ferguson, indicates a battle at the top of government between British Loyalists and the CIA patsies who have destroyed the UK economy, but I won’t hold my breath. I think the UK became pretty much under total US control in 2005. It looks more like just scapegoating to protect Johnson, as the people realise most of the lockdown was a scam, even if they don’t realise it was a scam to cover up for the 9 trillion stollen from the American people and we were just cover.

martin
martin
May 24, 2020 10:14 AM
Reply to  kim

It certainly shows what Insiders really think about it, ie what you read on here.

Julue
Julue
May 24, 2020 5:36 PM
Reply to  kim

Oh I think we are very much part of it think Christopher steele admitting in UK court dossier unverified and paid for by Clinton dnc aided by our m15/6 lot to interfere in US election. Our Pirbright institute has coronavirus patent through Serco which is golden share of monarch. See American intelligence media to discover our deep state

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
May 25, 2020 7:26 AM
Reply to  Julue

“[The UK’s] Pirbright institute has coronavirus patent through Serco…”

In the decade and a half from Wall Street’s early mass-investor realization of the profit potential of gentech neary 20,000 patents of human DNA were registered, many thousands more of animal, plant and microbial DNA, including many on aspects of the use of coronaviruses as vehicles for the delivery of gene therapy and adjuvant sensitivity and thousands related to the technology of gene manipulation. Only a very small proportion of those are part of the currently-despised Gates Gang’s coronavirus and generalized vaccination portfolio. Suggest you get some background or get a life. Either would be an improvement.

BDBinc
BDBinc
May 23, 2020 8:05 PM

Yes ok totally agree the home detention is tyranny, from the tyrants and govt that invented and support the fictions and falsified data used.
But infection with what?
We are infected with a quadrillion viruses as healthy people have a virome.
Is it Influenza? as they did not test for it or any other known viruses and they ignored all co morbid conditions in the dead.
If ancient corona virus is part of human dna( 8% dna is alleged to be virus derived) and corona is up the noses of healthy people as it is in their virome( & not attributed to disease said by the virologists that have studied the virome).
This, the human virome, is a new area and not much is known except healthy people are ” infected” with many viruses and the human virome is not seen as being pathological .
Think of healthy gut bacteria its part of you, its only in imbalances that there are problems.

JudyJ
JudyJ
May 23, 2020 8:37 PM
Reply to  BDBinc

With the supposed pending availability of antibody tests for all to access (albeit I’m not sure how reliable any result they produce can be) I really relish the prospect of everybody who takes one being found to be positive. I’d really like to see the Government explain that away. Unfortunately I suspect it’s probably more likely that the tests will just throw out random positive/negative results.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 23, 2020 8:54 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Yes, I’d like to hear them announce: “It turns out that, er, you’re all immune. So you can, er, all go home….er, I mean, you can all leave home…”.

(Then it would later come out that we were all immune at least a month ago, and when people realised they’ve been shut up unnecessarily, there would be pitchfork-wielding masses marching on Downing Street and Broadcasting House….).

BDBinc
BDBinc
May 23, 2020 11:56 PM
Reply to  JudyJ

Hi Judy
Virologists and paleovirologists disproved ” germ theory ” in the new study of human virome also .
Both the PCT tests and antibody tests are meaningless . Antibody tests do not prove anything . If you have corona antibody you may have current infection or you may be immune ( antibody says you have corona antibody so you either have it or had it and are immune or maybe you are not immune). Antibody test just says you have an antibody.
As you mentioned there are also false positives and negatives , cross contamination with other viruses, on top of the contaminated unpurified rna transcription . Usage of PCR test does not determine cause of disease and cannot be used to .

It is not surprising they did not test everyone to start with as the bogus fatality rate( probably influenza and other sickness and age)was only based on those tested positive which is a false figure as its not a fatality figure without everyone who has it being included.If most have corona up their nose this would have messed them up or if they tested for influenza/ other infections that too would have messed their fraud game up.

bob
bob
May 23, 2020 8:00 PM

I know it’s been said loads of times …. must read

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2020/05/23/fascist-bureaucracy-versus-elected-incompetence-does-the-covid19-cloud-have-a-silver-lining/

“The opportunity is a 21st century equivalent of barter – that is, physical and localised markets where honest citizens can exchange goods in a mutually beneficial way.”

titution
titution
May 23, 2020 8:13 PM
Reply to  bob

Its a bureaucrat war against open society and free, unrehearsed, spontaneous movement of individuals in the environment the bureaucrats want to control. Its a militarized design seeking to centralise control of each the behavior and access to information of individuals at the nano levels. Identity of, and gated access control, requiring each person to buy a ticket from them in order to negotiate one’s self in the bureaucratic society is their goal. Total dependency on a fully controlled system,, barter would queer their deal, as would a more efficient block chain.. invention.
What is needed is an independent financial system and system of providing support to the independents that fail and need support. Support in time of need is the only reason people put up with the cronies that run the state.

I liked what you said..

Willem
Willem
May 23, 2020 7:55 PM

My calling was never to study science, but to help people. That I ended up in science is coincidence. I started my medical career in Australia. At that time Australia had a shortage of doctors and it was fairly easy for a Dutch doctor to work there. The positions offered weren’t the ‘best’ places, like Sydney or Melbourne, but far off places like Tasmania or Outback Queensland. For me that was not a problem, in fact it was adventure! So I ended up in the outback, first in a small city in the outback where I worked on A&E for 2 times 3 months (I made rotations every 3 months) and then as rural GP for 3 months. And I learned about the Australian medical system where Australian graduated doctors had a gag clausule saying that they had to work in rural places for, I think, 4 years, or else they had to pay for their own education. And for them it was not adventure, or not so much. Their social life was kind of ruined since you were never sure where to end up in 3 months time. Of course these doctors were the ‘poor’ doctors, those who didn’t have mum or dad to pay for their expenses, and so it was a class within a class. Perhaps that’s one reason why I liked these doctors so much.. But where those doctors had no choice, but to rotate to even the most deserted places the system wanted them to move to, I could just resign any time I pleased, which I finally did after I was offered a position to work as an obstetrician somewhere high in the North of Australia (obstetrics is wonderful, but not my calling)

And after spending my money on a world trip, I returned to NL where I had to find a job. And I didn’t like the prospect to work as a medical specialist in NL. Because the system there is that you can only apply for a steady (medical specialist) position after you showed to the department that you worked for that you are ‘capable’ to apply. Which basically means that you have to work your ass off for years and then still aren’t sure if you can specialize. And all the labour you produced and almost all of the money you generated in the meantime for the department goes to the bosses of the department (the specialists). That type of specialization really reminded me too much of a pyramid game (which it is) where you only can make money and have a decent living if you find enough fools who will do the work and earn the money for you!

So I decided to do a PhD, which felt like 4 years of extra time to think things through after which I still could become a specialist if I wanted to. Prospects were then usually slightly better too (of not having to go through the pyramid game of specialization). But science itself, well I never gave it another thought than that it was just work, like so many other work I had done since I was a young adult. And I was happy to find a very charismatic boss who had collected all sorts of medical data in the 30 years that he had worked as a specialist but that nobody ever really looked at ‘scientifically’. And so I worked on that, with some help from the epidemiology department of that hospital, and in the meantime saw patients since I was working at a clinical department. And all went smooth, and I had a great time, and I loved my boss who was kind of a father figure to me. And I decided I wanted to stick to science combined with seeing patients without specialization and it was possible. I was offered a tenure track, thanks to my boss, at quite a young age, only 2 months after I got my PhD and had scored a big grant for the department. And then my boss suddenly died. And since I was too young and too inexperienced to run a department, a new boss was sought and I got an interim boss in the meantime. Which led to nothing and frustration after frustration and where I learned, the hard way, that in Academia it is not about patients’ welfare and being kind to your colleagues, but about reputation and money. And so after 1 year of being part of this ‘transition’ period I resigned, even though that ended my prospect of finishing the tenure track there and it also killed the prospect of successfully finishing the grant. I didn’t care.

And I found another job, the one that I have now, where I was trained to become an epidemiologist who still sees patients, but not too much. And things have gone smooth since then, although also very ‘well-behaved’. I have been lucky to get some grants with which I could follow my heart. And although the things that I studied cannot change healthcare, they have the potential to change healthcare for the better. So that is good. But it wasn’t really luck why I got these grants, or most likely not, because the grants that I got ‘surprisingly’ all had people in the committee that were somewhat friendly to my department or my profession: the only way how I ever have been able to get a grant…

And now I am in quite a stable position where I can do my own studies even without funding, as I have been able to convincingly show that I am able to deliver PhD theses (and every PhD thesis that I help to deliver means 90000 euro for the university).

And I always thought that it would be decent to end up like Richard Doll or Bradford Hill, two epidemiologists who worked for over 40 years to show that smoking caused lung cancer. I mean, they already showed that in the 1950s but they had to ‘convince’ the tobacco industry and their pundits (many paid doctors and statisticians and epidemiologists) for over 40 years before they finally got recognition for that finding. What I mean is that I find science, or the science that I work with, mostly fraudulent conventional foolishness, but that in the end the ‘truth’ (with its limits since biology is quite a stubborn system to learn truth in: many things are possible…) can be written in the literature. And as long as I would do that: aim for truthful scientific outcomes and write that down in the literature, I would do a good job.

But now with Covid19 I start to doubt if this what I do for work is what I want to do forever and if I believe in it. I mean, if I think about smoking and lung cancer: did we really need Doll and Hill to ‘know’ that smoking causes lung cancer? I think by the time this association was finally acknowledged to be causal the whole world already knew about the causality of the association. The only thing what Doll and Hill did, is write a clean sheet in an utter corrupt system, as if science has a self-cleaning ability. And that is what Sunetra Gupta and all these other renowned scientists now do to with Covid19. For instance, they show that the CFR of Covid19 is nothing extraordinary. But do we really need Sunetra Gupta for telling us this information?

I have seen here much better epidemiological thinking than I have seen in medical papers, or among my colleagues and even than I have seen by experts like Sunetra Gupta. I think we, scientists, could do much better by denouncing the whole scam from beginning to end, show it’s a fraudulent scheme where PhD students are almost solely needed for funding of the department and where medical careers have much less to do with saving patients their lives than with having friends in committees that can make or brake a career.

Of course there is not a chance that scientists can say this from their academic position.

So for now I don’t know how to continue in academia. I might resign, although I think that is just too easy, so probably I won’t do that. I also think there is plenty to do within science although it will not lead to much exposure.

Some movies I really like, and one of those movies is Wall Street. – With which character do you associate yourself most? For me, definitely not Gordon Gekko or Bud Fox or all those other shiny suit characters. But maybe this old guy at the firm who seems a bit of an odd ball, he doesn’t wear the shiny suit, doesn’t have a big room with a view, and of whom I don’t even know the name (he may not even have a name in the film) but who advices Charlie Sheen/ Bud Fox to not run into trouble when he proposes to his ‘friends’ and colleagues how to make easy money. Btw, those are the same friends/ colleagues who do nothing to help little Bud when he is finally busted, except for this old guy again who gives Charly some consoling words by quoting Nietzsche and staring in the abyss… because apart from work as a scientific thing, I think that work also has a socializing thing. And that the socializing is more important than all the words that scientists speak to the world: of that what is foolish; of that what is a deliberate lie; or of something that we already knew or could have known if we had thought for ourselves.

I wanted to get this off my chest and am happy that it now is off my chest. With apologies for the long post, even though I think it is on topic.

David Keegan
David Keegan
May 23, 2020 8:03 PM
Reply to  Willem

Thank you for your thoughtful and articulate post. No apology needed!

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 23, 2020 9:01 PM
Reply to  Willem

Very interesting and thoughtful, as usual Willem.

Trivial point: when I was a kid there was a drama series on the radio called “Flying Doctor”, set in Australia, and with Australian actors, but made by the BBC in England. I think there was a TV version, but I never saw that.

I presume they still have such a service. It was aimed at remote farmsteads or sheep stations in the outback, and in those days, they’d communicate with them via radio. Perhaps it would be done via the internet now, and perhaps a lot of remote diagnosis can be done that way.

Jen
Jen
May 23, 2020 10:32 PM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

The Royal Flying Doctor Service of Australia still exists and moreover has continued with its duties even during the COVID-19 lockdowns.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 23, 2020 11:02 PM
Reply to  Jen

Delighted to hear it! Good on ya mates!

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
May 24, 2020 1:16 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

I preferred The Flying Dogtor, a cartoon where the doctor was a dog.

Arsebiscuits
Arsebiscuits
May 23, 2020 10:07 PM
Reply to  Willem

Wondrous word wizardry williem

Hugh O'Neill
Hugh O'Neill
May 24, 2020 12:59 AM
Reply to  Willem

Willem. Just picking-up on one point about the harm of smoking. King James the I of England (James VI of Scotland) wrote a Counterblast agains the evils of tobacco: it blackens the heart, lungs and brain. I wondered how James knew that, and then recalled he always had a front seat at the execution of traitors (Hanging, drawing and quartering) in which the victims heart was removed (sometimes still beating). He clearly took a very close interest in proceedings. The Guy Fawkes gang and Walter Raleigh were all committed pipe-smokers and thus James may already have been quite anti-smoking, preferring the tea that was introduced by his Portugese wife, Catherine of Braganza….
Apologies for the ridiculous tangent.

Sam
Sam
May 24, 2020 6:12 AM
Reply to  Hugh O'Neill

That book or long pamphlet is pretty darn hilarious to read, though 🙂

T Brites
T Brites
May 23, 2020 7:39 PM

The part we are all neglecting is that NO MATTER the number of voices showing that this is nothing more than a new strain of SARS-CoV (and equally weak) the SRF & Billionaires have their own agenda and it’s running as planned.

And since the Great Herd of Morons really are clueless about their own Health and reject personal Responsibility… we’re presented with this lovely Reality!

kim
kim
May 23, 2020 8:21 PM
Reply to  T Brites

Sates are taking back more control, billionaires are not doing that, states are. You need to understand the geopolitical and where the UK fits into world hegemony.

May Hem
May Hem
May 23, 2020 10:40 PM
Reply to  kim

And who owns the governments of states and nations? Increasingly the big corporations and their lobbyists.

T Brites
T Brites
May 24, 2020 10:59 PM
Reply to  kim

Kim… Kim… Lucky you that May Hem wrote that reply!

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc
May 23, 2020 7:22 PM

We are all different, but these are my list in random order, that are helping me to get through this (and it is tough on us all)

No 1 A sense of humour, when the sh1t has hit the fan, and you just know it is going to get a hell of a lot worse

No 2 Hearing my wife singing, in the shower (or bath) in the morning, and later pounding the floorboards downstairs to her Dance Class at 9:30 am, waking me up. It means she is happy. If she is happy, then I am happy.

No 2 Our Son and our Grandkids coming round.

No 3 My Dad’s Tools – They got through two world wars, as did he, and they still work brilliantly

No 4 Our home and Garden

No 5 The prospect of something exciting and invigorating to do soon

SAILING

So far as I am concerned, I can cope with this, cos none of our family get depressed, for that long. Sh1t happens. The only thing you can do to survive is to carry on, and hold on to what you have got.

John Pretty
John Pretty
May 23, 2020 7:50 PM
Reply to  tonyopmoc

Buster James is not dissimilar to the sort of bloke I imagine you to be Tony.

I thought about you briefly on my walk today. To a degree I envy – but don’t begrudge – your good life. Clearly you have had a wonderful marriage and great family.

I still haven’t given up entirely on being married myself one day.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 23, 2020 10:48 PM
Reply to  tonyopmoc

Are you able to sail then Tony?

I’ve noticed some canoes & kayaks here on the Thames. There is still a sailing club by the Thames near here, but most people seem to sail at the not-too-distant reservoir nowadays, and I’ve no idea whether they’ve opened up for sailing there yet.

bob
bob
May 23, 2020 7:08 PM

Don’t forget people, there was video on twitter I think, where a SAGE member reacts extremely oddly when interviewed but says very clearly – “they did not expect the lockdown to be so well accepted by the population” – the health issues are of diminishing importance now because by all accounts the lockdown should be over – however, to save face and as long as the people beg to be ‘safe’ this will continue until more people physically oppose what is happening – the government is crap but the mass of the population are what’s keeping this hoax alive

bob
bob
May 23, 2020 7:31 PM
Reply to  bob

Can I just add, as the thought came to me, why the fuck have 66 million brits stood, in shock and awe at being told by Matt Handycock to stay at home and save lives – he must be in ecstacy at the moment – if he’s the best politician on offer in this country at present then dog help us, he’s a fucking loon – what is wrong with everyone??????????????

bob
bob
May 23, 2020 7:33 PM
Reply to  bob

I’m off to watch ‘Arthur’s Hallowed Ground’ – matt fucking handycock FFS!!!!!!!!!!

bob
bob
May 23, 2020 7:36 PM
Reply to  bob

we/I need an edit button – admin…?

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 23, 2020 10:50 PM
Reply to  bob

we/I need an edit button – admin…?

Or at least a preview facility.

An edit facility would probably mean you’d have to register and login to comment, and that might be too much hassle.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 23, 2020 10:51 PM
Reply to  bob

Can I just add, as the thought came to me, why the fuck have 66 million brits stood, in shock and awe at being told by Matt Handycock to stay at home and save lives – he must be in ecstacy at the moment – if he’s the best politician on offer in this country at present then dog help us, he’s a fucking loon – what is wrong with everyone??????????????

I’ve always wondered what a chinless wonder looked like, but if anyone is one, then he is.

IANA
IANA
May 23, 2020 7:44 PM
Reply to  bob

I’m not sure I agree with that Bob. The biggest influences in ‘people want lockdown to continue’ that I can see are the media. The same people responsible for this is in the first place really.

I along with my colleagues are considered key workers and I know we at least want this to end. Since the extension we have been waiting expecting even that we will go back on the 1st June.

This week it was explained to us that the company sees the lockdown as a 3 phase process at least. Phase 1 was that everyone went home. Phase 2 was the imposition of social distancing measures at work. One way corridors, screens around desks removal of all fridges and microwaves to prevent communal gathering etc.

Phase 2 is that 25-30% of workers will return to work as many as social distancing will allow. That is expected to take at least 2 to 3 months to install. So for up to 75% of key workers there will be no return to work for at least 3 months. These measures are already happening. That is one reason why we are not allowed back.

So the fact that the company has planned for and is carrying out these measures as they on the advice of the govt means that the govt are planning for a long term lockdown. Regardless of what happens with individuals the imposition of social distancing at work and in working communal environments means that this is not happening on a whim. This is a planned for process and looks like at least in part an organised strategy. By the end of these phases at work we will be into the late summer early autumn and I think we can all work out what is probably going to happen then.

I have more than enough of this already and the thought of another 3 months of this only seeks to reinforce the idea that I will probably never go back in any meaningful way.

BDBinc
BDBinc
May 23, 2020 8:14 PM
Reply to  IANA

Everyone has the gift of a reasoning mind that they don’t use it is up to them.
Collectively should we be in ignorance and fear or should we regain our humanity?
Thats the thing I see from this, our ” normal” was not normal . We were and are not behaving like human beings are distanced from each other in the mind ,not loving each other and so still receptive to the media conglomerates mind conditioning garbage.

BDBinc
BDBinc
May 23, 2020 8:08 PM
Reply to  bob

Yip absolutely Bob, thats it the belief in the lies/false made it a reality.
And the mind manipulators knew it, starting with China one of the more oppressed censored directorships(Lee) with the least resistance.

S Cooper
S Cooper
May 23, 2020 6:55 PM

I know this has been said here before but I will say it anyway.

By this time it is rather apparent. The economy was tanking and the SOBS decided to pull the plug on it, and get one last big payout for themselves.

The fear and propaganda pandemic is merely a distraction from that. As to Bill Gates and Big Pharma etal, being the vultures that they are, they are cashing in on all the bribes they made over the years to their sleazy political operatives.

What we are faced with is ending the worldwide prison lockdown of humanity, getting rid of all these creeps and seeing to it that this never happens again. A daunting task, yes.

Grafter
Grafter
May 23, 2020 6:13 PM

Heard that Firstbus drivers have been issued with masks but they are not allowed to wear them while driving. Also offshore workers are exempt from quarantine measures so you can go offshore, mix with another 50 guys on a North Sea platform for 3 weeks then come back onshore and contaminate family or friends. This Friday coming you are allowed to play golf and tennis. In the case of tennis one should avoid any sweating tennis players who may start coughing in the locker room.

John Pretty
John Pretty
May 23, 2020 7:16 PM
Reply to  Grafter

My dad (77) was playing golf again about 10 days ago. He lives in England.

Are your assertions regarding golf and tennis those that apply in Scotland?

Not sure how rubbing shoulders with fellow workers in oil rigs can give you covid19?

Grafter
Grafter
May 24, 2020 12:41 AM
Reply to  John Pretty

John yes that’s in Scotland. Have worked in the oil industry for over 45 years and life on a platform is indeed a life in a confined space so any “deadly virus” would have a field day.

martin
martin
May 24, 2020 11:03 AM
Reply to  Grafter

I have stood up at Safety Meetings on oil rigs and said everybody is getting flu and still working and service hands in control of the well are sick and don’t even get any sleep (no 12 hour shifts back then). And they talk about safety.

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc
May 23, 2020 5:45 PM

Whilst, I skim listened to this interview, I find it almost completely irrelevent to the real issues facing us all. So far as I am concerned, I came to the conclusion, based on the numerical evidence, that COVID was no more dangerous, than any other cold/like flu, long before the lockdown, when I myself was largely in self isolation, cos I probably had it. In my case, mild flu like symptoms, but nothing like as bad as the worst flu, I have had about 3 times in my life.

So I rapidly came to the conclusion, that COVID, was just a smokescreen and a distraction, from something far more serious, that was going on. Whilst everyone I knew was terrified, about the virus, and I tried to joke with them, which did not go down at all well, I myself, was in reality, even more terrified than them, for reasons my friends couldn’t possibly understand due to their own terror about getting it.

I thought, and still do, that this is something else. It is about crashing the entire world economy (which was pretty much crashing anyway (though covered in COVID smoke). Everyone thought, well it will be over soon – maybe a few months, the virus will pass, and everything will get back to normal, if we stay home and stay safe. The supermarkets still have loads of food, and many people were quite happy being paid not to go to work, and some were better off, than if they had. They still think, when this is over, that they will still be able to go back to work. Unfortunately a very large part of the real economy has disappeared, and the longer this lockdown continues, more of it will disappear.

I started to prepare to grow a lot more of our own food, and to be fair it is going quite well. Providing, you do just a little bit everyday, maybe an hour or two most days, then it is really not that hard, and being out in the fresh air and sunshine, doing a bit of exercise is intrinsically healthy, especially if you are an old person like me. As I hadn’t really done that much of this before, it was largely a practice thing. It is entirely possible that there will be no shortage of food, this coming winter in the UK, except the UK imports 50% of its food, and the rest of the world is going through the same trauma as us. If there is a shortage of food, then there is a possibility, that we will have a strategic reserve still growing in our back garden.

I do not know how things are going to pan out, and I will be absolutely delighted if I am proved wrong, and things do get back to normal.

I have always had massive respect for the views of Dmitry Orlov, even though I have not always agreed with him, and he has been predicting Doom and Gloom and collapse for Western Civilisation, since it happened to Russia in 1991 (the effect on ordinary people, was far worse than was ever published in the Mainstream). Economic collapse, has that effect, even though The Russian people are very much tougher, and can survive with very little compared to most people who live in The West.

I suggest you listen to him. There is pretty much nothing I disagree with him here. I think its going to be tough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ssk2BacEpo

Tony

John Pretty
John Pretty
May 23, 2020 6:17 PM
Reply to  tonyopmoc

Tony, while I have not as yet made my mind up about exactly what has happened, one thing I am clear on is that the issue is fear.

The issue is fear, so it’s actually not relevant whether the sars-cov-2 virus exists or not. Personally I think that it does exist, but it doesn’t matter anyway, because as I say, the virus is not the real issue here.

As you say, while it is not the flu, it’s symptoms are similar to those of the flu in most respects. From what I can make out it is rather like a mild version of the flu for most people.

I don’t hold with the view (popular here) that this is planned or this is some sort of malevolent scheme for world domination. (And if you do that’s fine, I’m not knocking you).

I think that politicians are at fault. They are incompetent fools who haven’t got a clue what they are doing. And yes, they are crashing the economy, but out of sheer stupidity rather than malice.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 23, 2020 6:57 PM
Reply to  John Pretty

With one exception, I agree with the above John.

The politicians were and are stupid, yes, but worse, I think they lost their nerve. Partly thanks to Neil Ferguson of course. They should have kept their nerve and asked around other experts.

What is surprising is that the governing party became notorious for not trusting “experts” on things like Brexit, which makes it all the more surprising that they fell for that expert, especially as he had a bad track record.

But even if they only half-believed Ferguson, surely common sense (and experience) should have told them that his more extreme predictions were likely to be highly exaggerated?

But what they should have known (and surely did know?), is that a long lockdown would surely crash the economy, possibly irrevocably.

Now they have the worst of both worlds: a crashing economy and the worst death rates in Europe, even with the lockdown. (How many of those deaths are due to “covid-19, and how many are due to the lockdown itself, remains to be seen, possibly, if anything like the truth ever emerges).

(The exception is that I am open to the idea of the virus either not existing, or not causing any disease).

S Cooper
S Cooper
May 23, 2020 9:36 PM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

The politicians did not lose their nerve. They are paid hacks doing the bidding of the owners. Guess what? You and I not the owners.

WELCOME TO CORPORATE FASCIST PRISON LOCKDOWN WORLD

David Matthews
David Matthews
May 23, 2020 7:47 PM
Reply to  John Pretty

Don’t think it was planned? So what about the USA CARES (Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security) act which was signed into law March 2020, but entered Congress in Jan 2019?

John Pretty
John Pretty
May 23, 2020 7:54 PM
Reply to  David Matthews

You are entitled to your opinion.

David Matthews
David Matthews
May 23, 2020 9:16 PM
Reply to  John Pretty

I’m entitled to my opinion and I can also produce cold hard fact to back it up. From the horses mouth:-

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/748?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22hr748%22%5D%7D&s=2&r=1

Click the Public Law (03/27/2020) selector and see for yourself – Introduced in House (01/24/2019)

John Pretty
John Pretty
May 23, 2020 9:42 PM
Reply to  David Matthews

Mr Matthews, I’m not going to change my mind. Sorry.

David Matthews
David Matthews
May 23, 2020 9:49 PM
Reply to  John Pretty

Unfortunately no, neither you nor the UK (and world) public at large will be persuaded even by cold hard fact.

That’s the truely worrying thing.

May Hem
May Hem
May 23, 2020 10:53 PM
Reply to  David Matthews

I agree with you David. There was also “Event 201” taking place in New York in October 2019 – he Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security in partnership with the World Economic Forum and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation hosted Event 201, a high-level pandemic exercise on October 18, 2019, in New York, NY. The exercise illustrated areas where public/private partnerships will be necessary during the response to a severe pandemic in order to diminish large-scale economic and societal consequences.

They planned it all well in advance and didn’t even try to hide it from us.

https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc
May 23, 2020 7:50 PM
Reply to  John Pretty

John Pretty, I agree with your first 3 paragraphs, and I know its hard on you too, but I think the reason you suddenly went extremely negative about Craig Murray, is because he banned you. That’s the initiation ceremony into the cult. You probably know more about this than me.

Tony

John Pretty
John Pretty
May 23, 2020 7:53 PM
Reply to  tonyopmoc

I am not aware of being banned by Murray.

I have criticised him strongly in the past, but I will not mention him again.

John Pretty
John Pretty
May 23, 2020 7:55 PM
Reply to  John Pretty

PS: Any discussion of Murray by me is now closed.

John Pretty
John Pretty
May 23, 2020 8:06 PM
Reply to  John Pretty

PPS: Tony, I think you’re a nice man. I always enjoy your pieces. One problem with any sort of online forum is that there is room for misunderstandings to occur. So I hope that I have not offended you at any time.

The issue with Murray is this. I was smeared by his moderator(s). Smeared. I was threatened with a ban, and them left in January.

The matter is one which caused considerable amount of distress.

I have on other threads stated my feelings about Murray, which I stand by and which I will not repeat again.

I now consider the matter closed and wish to move on. I would ask that you do not mention him again if you respond to my postings.

THANK YOU.

michael canning
michael canning
May 23, 2020 9:09 PM
Reply to  John Pretty

John,
I think you are being extremely charitable describing politicians as merely being
incompetent fools. They are a a cunning, venal , evil segment of humanity eager to sell
their souls to the satanic forces that govern us.They recognise early in life that the voter
is easily duped and enthusiastically join in his exploitation,The entire political
system is so putrid that any decent, reasonably intelligent person would prefer to join
the Mafia.
Think of the choices available to an idealistic young American who might be contemplating
entering politics — a party led by the unspeakable Trump or a party led by the visibly
rotting Biden.And the masses are so brainwashed that I can’t see a single ray of hope.
Just look at how Tulsi Gabbard fared in the recent Democratic primaries. An attractive young candidate who dared to express a little anti-war sentiment garnered less than 1% of the
vote in a race won handsomely by a man who , apart from his disgusting personal habits had
been exposed as an extortionist and embezzler.
Alas, I’m afraid that nowadays you can fool virtually all of the people all of the time.

John Pretty
John Pretty
May 23, 2020 9:47 PM

Yes, if anything they are worse in the States. If that’s possible!

BDBinc
BDBinc
May 23, 2020 8:15 PM
Reply to  tonyopmoc

You probably had the flu or a bad cold.

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
May 24, 2020 1:19 AM
Reply to  tonyopmoc

The USA is plainly in economic and moral collapse, a process felicitously hastened by the Trumpster. The problem, of course, is that the psychopaths who run Thanatopolis DC, and their Masters in Israel, will follow the Samson Option, to destroy the world if they can no longer dominate it, and suck the blood out of it.

paul
paul
May 24, 2020 8:35 PM

I t would almost be worth it to get rid of them.

Gary Weglarz
Gary Weglarz
May 23, 2020 5:21 PM

I’ll try this again as my first post seems to have disappeared. Here is a link to the latest Whitney Webb article on the promotion of vaccine development as the “solution” to our elite fabricated “problem.”

https://www.globalresearch.ca/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-gene-editing-vaccines/5713568

One thing worth keeping in mind is that our glorious Western oligarchs don’t fall asleep at night worrying about Russian, Chinese or North Korean “hordes” coming to lead them to the gallows. No, instead they quite rightly worry about – “us” – the citizens of the nations they rule through unaccountable power, corruption, greed and through the monetary and propaganda fueled manipulation of our so called “democracies.” We are the only ones that can challenge or contain their rule so we are ipso facto – “the enemy.” It’s not ‘rocket science’ as they say.

Sadly many fail to see, or to comprehend, this rather basic relational fact – and will quite gladly line up for a dose of whatever bizarre concoction our betters are ready to inject into their arses.

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 23, 2020 10:58 PM
Reply to  Gary Weglarz

One thing worth keeping in mind is that our glorious Western oligarchs don’t fall asleep at night worrying about Russian, Chinese or North Korean “hordes” coming to lead them to the gallows. No, instead they quite rightly worry about – “us” – the citizens of the nations they rule through unaccountable power, corruption, greed and through the monetary and propaganda fueled manipulation of our so called “democracies.” We are the only ones that can challenge or contain their rule so we are ipso facto – “the enemy.” It’s not ‘rocket science’ as they say.

And now in England, apparently, the garden centres are open again, so we have unlimited access to pitchforks….

Gary Weglarz
Gary Weglarz
May 24, 2020 5:21 AM
Reply to  Mike Ellwood

🙂 And surely there is someone out there who can come up with plans for a “3-D printable” guillotine – I mean it’s 2020 for god’s sake!

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
May 25, 2020 9:22 AM
Reply to  Gary Weglarz

I prefer the gibbet, at crossroads.

Willem
Willem
May 23, 2020 4:56 PM

Her husband is Adrian Hill.

He is also a very interesting fellow

Adrian Vivian Sinton Hill (born 1958)[2] FMedSci FRCP is a vaccinologist, director of the Jenner Institute, Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Oxford, Consultant Physician and Fellow of Magdalen College, Oxford.[3][4] Hill is jointly leading in research to produce a vaccine for COVID-19 along with Professor Andrew Pollard of the Oxford Vaccine Group.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_V._S._Hill

ame
ame
May 23, 2020 6:34 PM
Reply to  Willem

for the betterment of man kind type through a needle

hope
hope
May 23, 2020 4:40 PM

Im afraid I did not much appreciate Gupta’s interview.
The very first point is that science is not about truth. This was mistakenly thought to be the case in modern times until quantum theory, when this came to be recognized. Physicist Max Born, and since then, plenty have clearly stated this. Science is based on plenty of assumptions, then we are ourselves limited, both our senses and mind, and hence, as was well explained by Heisenberg,
“man’s argument … cannot simply speak of nature ‘in itself’. Science always
presupposes the existence of man and … we must become conscious that we
are not merely observers but also actors on the stage of life.” Our theories, even those seemingly most satisfying, are ridden with weaknesses. Unpredictability and uncertainty are an integral part of a scientific approach. There is nothing we can do to get rid of that. We can try improving measurements, technologies, these will remain. There is therefore bound to be different theories, why one becomes more prevalent is not always for any good reason.

In the case at hand, we’re talking about the living world, whose complexity is of a totally different magnitude from that of the inert world. Models, everyone’s talking about models. But any mathematical model is based on multiple assumptions. Even the best of models is so reductive its mind boggling. We should estimate ourselves lucky that it just about seems satisfactory in physics. Extending maths to studies of the living world, frankly, is wrought with unbelievable issues. Ive looked at the standard models used in epidemiology. I was flabbergasted. So why is no one from epidemiology saying that science can never tell us what is actually truly going on in reality. Why did Gupta not say that clearly?
She talked about the simple SIRS model, well any reader interested should look up what it is, and will see how simplistic it is, and the incredible assumptions behind. Not just the models but the biological assumptions are all so reductive that if we have to rely on them for measures to be lifted, we can wait forever.

Why did she not even question the virus theory? Because even that has never been evidenced. Seemingly no one has yet seen a whole virus even with an electron microscope. Why did she not talk of alternative theories about diseases? Why did she not mention that ever since the famous French medical scientist Claude Bernard, some consider that
the microbe is nothing, the terrain is everything”, a statement that was repeated by Pasteur on his deathbed, thereby reneging on his life’s assumption that to each disease could be attributed some dangerous microbe ready to attack anyone and everyone. We all have viruses in us, viruses are everywhere. We’d never have lived 30 000 years, if microbes were awaiting to kill us.
Why is it not questioned openly today how and why this virus theory came to be and why?

Why, in short, is no one saying that the complexity is of such a degree that we scientists cannot be responsible for extensive measures? Or have all forgotten what science is? In the 1970s, Heisenberg wrote:
“most biologists
today still use the language and the way of thinking of classical mechanics; that
is, they describe their molecules as if the parts of the molecules were just stones
or something like that. They have not taken notice of the changes which have
occurred in quantum theory”. “sooner of later, also in biology, one will come to realize that
this simple use of pictures, models and so on will not be quite correct.”
Unfortunately those in biology who have indeed realized this, appear to have been silenced.

Cascadian
Cascadian
May 23, 2020 6:08 PM
Reply to  hope

Remove the stick, you’ll find that you’ll be able to sit much more comfortably.

Fair dinkum
Fair dinkum
May 24, 2020 2:56 AM
Reply to  hope

Biologists pretend to study Life, but what they are really studying are forms of life.
Life itself (with a capital L), cannot be studied, measured or quantified.
It can only be experienced.

The Coming Revolution
The Coming Revolution
May 24, 2020 8:37 PM
Reply to  hope

Thank you hope.

I think true scientists do not pretend to know what reality is; they realise that theories are based on assumptions and interpretations and hence their pretentions cannot go much further beyond being just useful. And they are: No one could ignore the extent to which this very imperfect and modest science when applied to the inert world has benefitted human existence on earth.

When applied to the living and specially to human life, I think scientists ought to be very careful in applying theories based on the same views, because they shouldn’t afford approximations when life and death are the stakes. Common sense (which may be a vestige of our ability to grasp wholly what reality is) must be the guiding light that makes the final decision.

The scientists who use common sense in their work are the humble ones: they are always ready to learn and never take as absolutely true and final what they know today, although they may be very brilliant in their field. These I consider to be true scientists. The others are the arrogant ones, who pretend to know what reality is (just through their microscope, as Dr. Wodarg had described).

Arrogant Scientist: “This virus is public enemy N°1, and governments are advised that people should be kept indoors.”

True scientist: “We have reasons to believe that a new strain of virus has emerged, which is a natural occurrence, by the way. According to our preliminary information, which we have to check, it may be wise for governments to take preventive actions while we assess the situation.”

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. – Bertrand Russell

S Cooper
S Cooper
May 23, 2020 4:34 PM

The Propaganda is the Pandemic.

David Mitchell
David Mitchell
May 23, 2020 5:35 PM
Reply to  S Cooper

The Pandemic is Fear

S Cooper
S Cooper
May 23, 2020 5:50 PM
Reply to  David Mitchell

The Fear Propaganda is the Pandemic. That also works.

May Hem
May Hem
May 23, 2020 10:59 PM
Reply to  S Cooper

Have you joined the Korona Kult of Immaculate Infection?

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
May 24, 2020 1:21 AM
Reply to  May Hem

The pandemic presages pandemonium.

sunset
sunset
May 23, 2020 3:52 PM

Game Theory teaches that when you wish to make a *powerful* move, you are forced to reveal critical information about your hand to your opponent. In other words, one can perceive crucial data from the ‘best’ propaganda outlets.

Like a lot of you here, RT has been my daily go-to for ‘news’ (alongside the Daily Mail, which is the new dumping ground for UK governmental ‘truth’- which proves just how much reach that online outlet has over dying mouthpieces like the BBC). RT, PressTV etc, the pseudo foreign news services, were actually all begun in the UK as a MI6/BBC World Service project, and have never been more that a ‘different’ form of deep state media, but until recently their coverage was ‘interesting’.

But for the period of the SARS2 false-flag, RT has been in-you-face appalling- revealing of course just how much Team Putin is part of the game. But RT is just brutal in its “both sides against the middle” method that gets worse day by day.

Now this deep state Gupta article is much more subtle. She normalises the great lie, suggesting the only issue is that the response needs work, and sets the ground for Porton Down’s “second wave” all set to appear in the Autumn, at which point people like Gupta are all set to tell the sheeple that now things *are* serious enough to need an even more severe response.

Why do these Blair agents all stress that SARS2 appeared much earlier than originally thought? Game theory, people, game theory. It is because wave 2 is to appear just as soon as possible after Summer- or at least that is what the sheeple are going to be told.

Here’s the thing. Good science, as in proper science, states that cold (*not* flu) like viruses, which includes SARS2, have no real presence during the Earth’s hot cycle. So pressure from real scientists makes the whole SARS2 false flag sag during the Summer in nations with a reputation for good science like the UK and much of West Europe. So the great lie becomes completely implausible to educated people during the Summer months.

But Team Blair want the great lie effective again just as soon as possible, which is where pseudo respectable agents like Gupta come in.

Remember Team Blair’s ‘lockdown’ science was no such thing- just the use of a braindead cretin of zero repute at Imperial, chosen because he was dribbling a very useful pseudo-science lie. The trick was this whole “if one had a deadly virus today, are there any societal methods that could limit its spread?” because this theoretical mind experiment has *zero* good scientific research, and therefore any loser can speculate SF dribble, which the Deep State can spin into first rate ‘scientific’ advice. But across time this tactic rots, as real alpha scientists start to give their attention to the same.

Most so-called scientists are utterly crap at every aspect of their job- as with most fields. You can automatically discard the opinions of 90% of them, especially those with ‘woke’ credentials. The remaining 10% are better, but the true alphas will be a tiny fraction of this group, and experience of psychology has proven the very best are usually obssessed people with a very narrow focus, and poor awareness outside this cone.

Public *perception* of science bares no resemblance to the real thing, which the deep state expoits of course.

Will the new virus after Summer be more deadly in reality- I doubt this (I think the great bio-warefare project lead by the UK still fails to produce a ‘safe’ deadly agent- moral scum scientists are very rarely good scientists). But it doesn’t matter if a new raft of ‘experts’ who have built up trust across the Summer are available to sell the next great lie.

However, know that Stage 2, set for the end of this year, is not the continuation of the SARS2 play (which is going to continue no doubt and worsen). Stage 2 is something far far worse.

kevin king
kevin king
May 23, 2020 4:04 PM
Reply to  sunset

She believes in the existence of viruses as external agents that cause disease and are transmissible from one human to another. That is reason enough to dismiss her as a genuine scientist since the evidence is overwhelming that germ theory is not just wrong.

WorldParole
WorldParole
May 23, 2020 4:42 PM
Reply to  kevin king

Yes – can we please dispose the rhetoric that more funding to hospitals, NHS, and healthcare organizations would’ve “saved more lives.”

Cascadian
Cascadian
May 23, 2020 6:09 PM
Reply to  kevin king

Evidence? I won’t hold my breath.

Binra
Binra
May 23, 2020 10:45 PM
Reply to  kevin king

Everything in the mainstream fear and control narrative hinges on the virus theory being asserted and reinforced as fact – by every means – and in the same way climate was woven into everything – excepting germ theory goes back a lot further and most were born into it as their normal.

I don’t thing becoming a ‘flat earthlike’ germ denier helps. Nor being right by pointing out wrongs.
The invested identity in the protection (racket) is Too Big To Fail – in the general population – let alone Trillion dollar medical industrial complex. It really is a godless sense of being locked down into a weak or inadequate body that has to be protected from retribution masked as random genes or malign viruses or Chinese markets or anything anywhere ELSE.

There is a weak and inadequate mind that is disconnected from the heart of wholeness in connected purpose as a result of conflicted identity. The masking adaptation is a coviding over of fear as if to have escaped it. Limiting consciousness does seem to work as a delaying of the inevitable (truth) but as a world of diminishing returns.

Sooner or later the pain or meaninglessness threshold brings everything into question, but until then, some things are protected from questioning and not always wrongly so. There is a time and a timing for everything.

Andrew Kaufman is a good speaker questioning the germ theory – but is relatively new to discovering the floor wasn’t really there. Zach Bush has more integrative way of communicating across paradigms rather becoming defined in opposition.

The underlying theme is that science becomes captured to weaponising and marketising forces – and this will use the presentation of serving human progress while patently operating a backwards agenda. The possession and control mind is in our ‘persona’ as the fear of dispossession and loss of control. But presenting as masking narrative by which to literally cast out our part onto the motives of others, and onto life itself.

The evidences are what you seek out and give acceptance to. I feel the willingness or desire of a real question goes forth to attract and unfold the answer in like kind. But the wish to know and tell others what is so is always some kind of self validation or vindication – which reveals a lack seeking fulfilment externally. If we have inner conflicts we are set on evading or denying – and we are seeking OUT THERE for resolution to our condition, then any kind of panacea will attract investment and seem to work until of course it doesn’t – but then the psychic dynamics of the actual conflict have been false flagged onto some chemical substance or procedure – that come back at us as the denials we fail to recognise – because in a sense we cast them into narratives from our own denials.

We have now piled so much debt and denial as to become unworkable and regardless the attempt to save face and control – a reckoning cannot be wiggled out of – but that doesn’t mean we cant go kicking and screaming all the way to our core truth instead of yielding in a willingness to know the truth. The fact that people are so passive is not least because polarised identities cancel consciousness rather than extend diversity as a creative culture. Stagnation, paralysis and death. A mask that wont come off and lockdown into an unbreathable isolation. It was scripted into the beginning of a prodigally mistaken identity/inheritance.
Anything given power of belief is real to the mind and experience of the believer.
Fear generates very real experience from split or conflicted premises.

The fear of contagion was the pretext. Now obedience training is being applied as conditioning for the normalisation of compliance. If there is ANY joy, peace or love in its agenda anywhere – then it is the world’s best kept secret. Surely this is a call to uncover or find and be found in the call or the stirrings or movements of true being – while we still have a capacity to ask and recognise answer. Perhaps many can only ask statements in the form of questions by which to generate answers that by definition will not challenge their accepted reality. But the mystery of the will is in the capacity to arrive at recognitions from completely unpredictable series of synchronicity – regardless all attempt to manipulate it.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
May 23, 2020 4:19 PM
Reply to  sunset

I disagree with what you say about the origin of the foreign English language news services having helped to set up two of them. I do think your comments about scientists are spot on, especially when you demolish the tendency to trust scientists just because they’re scientists. They ARE no different to the rest of the population, meaning that ….

“Most so-called scientists are utterly crap at every aspect of their job- as with most fields. You can automatically discard the opinions of 90% of them, especially those with ‘woke’ credentials. The remaining 10% are better, but the true alphas will be a tiny fraction of this group, and experience of psychology has proven the very best are usually obssessed people with a very narrow focus, and poor awareness outside this cone. “

Mike Ellwood
Mike Ellwood
May 23, 2020 7:05 PM
Reply to  sunset

I’m being dense, no doubt, but why “Team Blair”?

bob
bob
May 23, 2020 3:00 PM
mikael
mikael
May 23, 2020 2:58 PM

I just wanted to add something while I remeber it, the reason for 5G is that, if and when we are to be chipped, it maybe an pasive “screener”, etc, but to read that in real time they need an over lapping frequency admitter and the 4G was/is not that good and then we get the much better, of course from their side, screening with the 5G since it operates on much higher level and penetrate more than 4G and can thereby read the pasive chipp they have and will induce into our blood stream or just place it under out skin much easier.

And dont forget this, China is and do have an high rate of vaccinated people, up to ranges of 95% of the population, like other regions like Italy and most of the problems with elderly I am certain comes from the previous vaccines regimes they had just months before this so called epidemic kicked in on an populatin that was heavy vaccinated aka our elderly, for their own safty, of course, and as this new, uh… virus vaccine shows, if you already have been injected, the possibility of then be an target is exponetially much higher than if you where not vaccinated, I guess that its that witch is part or more or less the problem regarding the high mortality rate among people and then specially the elders whom took this vaccines.

peace

Richard Le Sarc
Richard Le Sarc
May 24, 2020 1:25 AM
Reply to  mikael

China was surprised by the Fort Detrick chimeric virus, but got on top of it quickly, and now has it under control because it has the superior political, economic and social system, and the Gods Upon the Earth in the West CANNOT stand that.

ovonovo
ovonovo
May 23, 2020 2:56 PM

More news from the nodemic:

This is from the comments section of Japan Today. Three of the Tokyo prefectures are still under lockdown.

Today 01:53 pm JST 23/05/2020

But despite the low testing and obviously inaccurate numbers of cases one thing stands out that has not been reported as widely as the lack of testing. That is that the number or deaths (from all causes) during the first 4 months of this year have not gone up despite all predictions from all the so-called expert especially those from the west.

How on earth can you come to that conclusion…. your own post you say, correctly, that little testing has been DONE.

So there is no way to know if deaths are happening to the virus or not! The only way we can get an idea is to compare deaths in 2020 to those prior to 2020, even then if there are spikes in 2020 I wonder if the govt will allow that to be known, sorry I cannot possibly trust the govt here sadly,

GW

Because with the Japanese kosekitohon and jyumiho systems the governments knows monthly who and how many have died. The numbers were published as they always are the first week of May. The Japanese government cannot alter the number of dead or the population count. We often complain about koseki system and jyuminho but unlike the USA, Canada and others the central gov doesn’t need to rely on slow reporting from local govs regional departments, etc..

GW

If you read what I wrote you would have seen that there was no spike in deaths from the same period last year and this year. I explained how we know as numbers are released monthly and due to the Japanese family registration system they are publicly available and all Japanese outlets have reported this. No spike in deaths not higher death rate to be exact few died between January 2020 and the end of April 2020 than died in the same period in 2019 and this has been attributed to few people out/traveling and a lower number if deaths due to accidents. Do you know what the numbers (blue & red) posted on every koban are? They are the number of car accidents and injury/deaths collected daily. That is the difference between the west and Japan things like this are part of a centralized system, not haphazard reporting via different systems based on what each state or province feels like doing.

bob
bob
May 23, 2020 2:41 PM

I’ve already had a holiday cancelled and no doubt many other have had too – yet, according to the guardian Boris is off on another break:

“Why should the prime minister explain anything to anyone during the worst health crisis in 100 years? It was a nice afternoon, he was about to go on a 10-day Whitsun break with Carrie, Dilyn the dog and some baby that had mysteriously appeared in Downing Street, and he could do without the hassle. And it had been a whole two months since he’d taken 10 days off right at the beginning of the pandemic. In any case, he’d already had coronavirus, so he was just fine.”

It is very clear that the present government have very different rules to the rest of the population – the scam continues and the british people are mostly still asleep – which is probably why the lockup continues – the government are just helping it along ….

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
May 23, 2020 4:17 PM
Reply to  bob
bob
bob
May 23, 2020 6:58 PM
Reply to  Steve Hayes

Steve – I actually found this somewhere on a twitter thread, and yes i know, it’s the guardian, but i’m pissed off not being in Sorrento and the Amalfi coast and Positano now -this is not academic proof! – i need a holiday – get the picture?

Jim McDonagh
Jim McDonagh
May 23, 2020 2:30 PM

Good video , however too little too late , as the great human herd in now in full stampede mode and will race on until exhaustion overcomes their fear. As the leaders of this event take full advantage.

Fair dinkum
Fair dinkum
May 23, 2020 2:27 PM

Our honourable leaders, highly educated medical experts and thoroughly objective media are way too far up their own egoistic orifices to backtrack, partake of humble pie, or admit they fucked up.
So down the shit chute we all go.

S Cooper
S Cooper
May 23, 2020 5:04 PM
Reply to  Fair dinkum

WHEN SOCK PUPPETS RULED THE WORLD

comment image

Yes it is I, the all powerful and all knowing, BLAIRIGULA, emperor of all I survey. Now kneel down and grovel before me. Kiss the ring on my pinky toe… and don’t forget to leave a five spot on the way out.

polistra
polistra
May 23, 2020 2:12 PM

Now what we need is contact tracing to find Patient Zero of the psychopathogen that infected all the world’s leaders. Sieges to starve a territory into submission were a military tactic until Feb 2020, when sieges suddenly became a public health technique. Where did it come from? How did nearly all leaders get infected INSTANTLY? Blackmail? Bribes? Threats of assassination? Or have they all been working in synchrony for many decades?

sabelmouse
sabelmouse
May 23, 2020 2:27 PM
Reply to  polistra
Howard
Howard
May 23, 2020 2:57 PM
Reply to  sabelmouse

It would seem that most people would sooner be beaten, robbed, chained to a stake and have their eyes poked out than to have to take the time to actually think about something – let alone to question the motives of the authority figures they ascribe so much worldly wisdom to. The actions of the “herd” give the lie to the notion of herd immunity – at least so far as ruling class schemes are concerned. They might develop an immunity to a virus; but never to a plan to enslave them.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
May 23, 2020 4:26 PM
Reply to  Howard

“Most people would rather die sooner than think—and they do.”
Ascribed to one Sheldon in 1913 and later to Bertrand Russell.

Binra
Binra
May 23, 2020 11:01 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

Mind capture operates such that we think we are thinking – but we are not. We think we are conscious but we are not. Habits run a mind set in its own pattern of acquired adaptation and the forces that set it up, maintain it as an auto-defence.
A mask cannot become who we are, but we can so invest in a masking persona as to become blind to anything BUT what its filters tell us or rather comply us by reaction to think we made a choice when it was a default that effectively made us.

This is testable.
Look at yourself.
Not judge yourself.
But watch the thoughts the emotions the reactions and watch how they are mostly available in the moment you recognise you were lost in identifying in them, and even this is then judged as a way to resume ‘normal service’.

The disturbance of our ‘reality’ is somewhat like a movement on the face of the waters that shatters our reflected image.
Order drawn out of chaos is life itself, but order imposed as structural compliance and conformity is a death wish set in refusal to love.

tonyopmoc
tonyopmoc
May 23, 2020 6:20 PM
Reply to  Howard

Howard, I agree with every word except one. I would simply replace “enslave” with “kill”.