Judge Orders ‘Destruction’ of Epstein Evidence
Eric Zuesse
Image source: Law and Crime
US District Court Judge Loretta Preska, who was appointed by George Herbert Walker Bush, and whom his son had considered promoting to the Supreme Court, ruled in a case on July 1st, ordering the attorneys for one of Jeffrey Epstein’s alleged victims, Virginia (Roberts) Guiffre, to “destroy” a list of men who had taken advantage of Epstein’s “girls.”
This action pertains to a case not only against Epstein, who is dead, but against his friend and colleague Ghislaine Maxwell, who happened to become arrested by the FBI in Bedford New Hampshire the very next day, on July 2nd.
Judge Preska said that Giuffre’s attorneys:
Cooper & Kirk shall destroy (a) all materials from Giuffre v. Maxwell, No. 15 Civ. 7433, currently in its possession, save for the transcript of Ms. Giuffre’s deposition in that case and (b) all work product derived from the Maxwell materials. Cooper & Kirk shall submit to the Court an affidavit detailing the steps that it took to destroy the materials.”
Her order to the attorneys stated that Giuffre:
alleged that Ms. Maxwell was a ringleader in Jeffrey Epstein’s sex-trafficking scheme, a trusted lieutenant of Epstein’s who facilitated his purported trafficking of underage girls to prominent individuals. Ms. Giuffre’s defamation action against Mr. Dershowitz alleges that Mr. Dershowitz was one of the prominent individuals who took advantage of Epstein and Ms. Maxwell’s trafficking scheme and that Ms. Giuffre was forced to have intercourse with Mr. Dershowitz when she was underage. Ms. Giuffre alleges that Mr. Dershowitz’s false denial of such contact defamed her.”
Preska’s order does not say that the names of the men on that list are to be kept confidential and not available to the press, but instead that Giuffre’s attorneys are to “destroy” it.
As Colin Kalmbacher reported, at Law and Crime on July 1st, under the headline “Judge Orders Virginia Giuffre’s Lawyers to ‘Destroy’ Their Jeffrey Epstein Files, Bars Dershowitz from Accessing Them”:
At issue here are two separate legal controversies:
(1) a protective order issued in 2015 by Judge Robert W. Sweet in a since-settled defamation case between Giuffre and Epstein’s alleged groomer and girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell;
and (2) a more recent series of extant defamation, back-and-forth claims between Giuffre and Dershowitz.
The Giuffre v. Maxwell protective order is the major legal lock-and-key which has long-protected the Epstein files. A process is currently underway for both sides to sift through those documents and eventually make many of them available for public consumption.
Although other copies of that list might exist (which are not likewise being ordered by Preska to be destroyed, but could possibly be brought forth as evidence in other trials), Judge Preska’s order prohibits Dershowitz’s use of Giuffre’s copy of that physical list, as being evidence in this trial, which isn’t between Giuffre and Maxwell, but instead between Giuffre and Dershowitz — who claims to be not on that list and to need that list in order for him to prove his personal defamation case against Giuffre, who says that he is on the list.
The Court’s ruling said:
the Maxwell Protective Order prohibits information designated as CONFIDENTIAL from being “disclosed or used for any purpose except for the preparation and trial of [the Maxwell] case.”
The alleged reason that the ruling provides to “destroy” the list is that
Critically, the agreed-upon unsealing procedure can only work as intended if non-parties are willing to participate. Handing over to Mr. Dershowitz all of the materials from Maxwell, which would necessarily include all of the sealed filings that are the subject of the unsealing protocol, would threaten that balance. Non-parties [to the Giuffre-v.-Maxwell case] may question the legitimacy of that process if Mr. Dershowitz can obtain, without any regard whatsoever for their interests, the sealed materials for the mere reason that disclosure would make mounting his defense and litigating his counterclaims against Ms. Giuffre more convenient [in other words: to assist Dershowitz’s case against Giuffre].The Court will not risk collateral damage to the Maxwell unsealing process by modifying the protective order.”
The “balance” that’s referred-to there is allegedly the right of both the accuser Giuffre and the accused Maxwell to have their privacy protected. Dershowitz says he wants this list in order to prove that his name isn’t on the list. The Court’s “Protective Order” had been issued in 2016 in the Giuffre-v.-Maxwell case, so as to:
protect the discovery and dissemination of confidential information or information that will improperly annoy, embarrass, or oppress any party, witness, or person providing discovery in [Maxwell].” (Id.) The order accordingly permits the parties to designate as CONFIDENTIAL certain materials produced in discovery that “are confidential” and that implicate “common law and statutory privacy interests” of Ms. Giuffre and Maxwell Defendant Ghislaine Maxwell (“Ms. Maxwell”).
Preska’s ruling includes a footnote in which she says:
Bubbling underneath the debate about modification of the Maxwell Protective Order is a more practical concern: the temptation that the Maxwell materials might inspire for a litigant in Mr. Dershowitz’s position. As a general matter, Mr. Dershowitz’s battle with Ms. Giuffre has proceeded in very public — and frequently toxic — fashion. See, e.g., Alan Dershowitz Twitter Posts from June 22, 2020, available at https://twitter.com/AlanDersh (suggesting that Ms. Giuffre should be “prosecuted and sent to prison” for perjury). More importantly, and perhaps reflecting Mr. Derhsowitz’s desire to defend himself in the public eye, Counsel for Mr. Dershowitz noted at oral argument that “Professor Dershowitz obviously wants all information [contained in the Maxwell materials] to be out there, to be public … because he believes it exonerates him.” (Transcript at 21:21-24.)
That lengthy footnote concludes:
Thus, given the public character of this litigation [between Dershowitz and Giuffre] and what is at stake for the litigants, production of the Maxwell materials to Mr. Dershowitz would raise additional risk of leakage from the materials at issue in the Maxwell[-v.-Giuffre] unsealing process into filings in the Dershowitz action. This would further undermine the unsealing process in Maxwell.”
Perhaps any men who had raped any of those girls will be long in their graves and well-established in the history-books before their having been on Ghislaine Maxwell’s lists will become publicly known. If that turns out to be the outcome, then the girls and the public will be “screwed” yet again, and Judge Preska’s order exhibits no concern about that.
A judge is supposed to represent the public’s interests, even in private disputes. But perhaps private interests take precedence in America’s courts. The public’s interests are not even mentioned in the judge’s ruling. Though the word “public” is stated there six times, it never concerns the public’s interests, but only private ones, such as “given the public character of this litigation and what is at stake for the litigants”.
What about the public? They’re mentioned only as being voyeurs. Is this American ‘democracy’?
Investigative historian Eric Zuesse is the author, most recently, of They’re Not Even Close: The Democratic vs. Republican Economic Records, 1910-2010, and of CHRIST’S VENTRILOQUISTS: The Event that Created Christianity.
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A key to getting promoted in most walks of life is knowing how to pervert the course of justice without being charged with any crimes.
This judge has been bought for reasons only she knows.
Supremes get selected by being politically convenient to the appointing authorities.
The Law was never about justice, it was about getting the rich and powerful off.
Two useful sources on Maxwell and Elon Musk:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5261293/Elon-Musk-says-didnt-know-event-went-sex-party.html
https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/1279500934360547328
Which is most improbable….
a) This giggling man-child runs the world’s richest car company?
b) He’s sent a Tesla Roadster into orbit and then on to Mars?
c) His defence here?
Turns out that Maxwell has been covered by a federal law rather than a state law. The federal law of immunity ; a clause in an agreement made with her ‘boss’ Epstein in 2008. It’s a non-prosecution agreement apparently.Just why Epstein wanted to secure that in a plea bargain is anybody’s guess. But he was guaranteed she’d be protected by him doing so. Maybe it was loyalty. Maybe it was fear. Maybe someone higher up in the land of Mossad intervened.But she’s protected by a non-prosecution agreement that wasn’t overturned in 2018 when when Epstein was in court again.This despite a later judge’s ruling ( following Epstein’s sentence in 2019) that ‘co-conspirators’ needn’t think that it was all over and that the girls seeking justice for so long would get it.This will leave a lot of people embarrassed when it resurfaces.But nobody will be blushing as much as Justice.
dopelganger
the real son of ha ha maxwell robert aka ghis slain is already in tel aviv
is it not
drinking cocktails with dad and creepy unkle lord greville janner
Well, pardon my language but.
What a fuckin suprise.
When has the Gestapo scheduled sweet young thing Ghislaine’s PERP WALK? Or have we missed it?
Paul Romano on his YT channel PocketsOfTheFuture has a nice collection
on this event sort of happening but at the same time not taking place
in any meaningful sense.
Perp Walk: she is just so very connected. She has been the nexus, the go-between,
the middle woman, the nympho, the accounting lady, the madam, the facilitator,
the activist, the mistress, the dominatrix and the con artist. Among other things.
Another bent judge: is it possible to be a judge without being corrupt? In the UK even magistrates are corrupt. Kind of sad, the magistrate system was supposed to prevent this, but let’s face it, every government system will only survive while it’s useful.
No, no, you’re quite wrong, A. We have an independent judiciary and the Rule of Law, an unbiased and impartial media, and honest politicians of unimpeachable integrity. And wonderful summer weather.
Just as I opined it looks like the whole story is scripted and ready to play out – probably with La Maxwell, being handed over to the ‘safe hands’ of Manhattan prison system and the ‘honest prosecutor’ from where she will join her late father and boyfriend in a royal disappearance from this earth.
No need for suicide – what with a handy COVID to blame it on – it is expected she’ll contract it within days and end up in intensive care and dead by the end of next week – CASE CLOSED.
As for the ‘honest lawyer and professor’ friend of Epstein and the Clinton’s, Rothschilds defender of OJ… Norman Finkelstein a REAL human being has long had his number as expounded in this thread
https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1279174799969959936
Enjoy.
Send in the trolls…
Thanks for the link. Norm’s the man!
“US District Court Judge Loretta Preska, who was appointed by George Herbert Walker Bush, and whom his son had considered promoting to the Supreme Court.”
The criminal Bush legacy continues.
Papa Bush was CIA – DNC territory – and given how corrupt the CIA was under his leadership, I imagine he is comparing notes with Biden on how to sell the USA to China. You think all those oil wars were about anything other than self enrichment? There is nothing wrong with US government if you don’t have murderers running the country. Why would murderers care which party you are in? Epstein dead … ooops. For someone who is in US government and has killed hundreds of thousands, one more means nothing. The shame is that the US citizens are so easily distracted, which is why the murderers are so safe there.
If I were a scriptwriter I’d craft the story so that Ghislaine arrives in New York with a fat bank account containing the millions her father stole from UK pension accounts.
She’s a party girl, and unavoidably meets Epstein who realises what a fortune is smiling at him. He realises that her father has control over Ghislaine so for Epstein to gain control, the father must be gone.
This is arranged through Epstein’s contacts from the time when he had a fake Austrian passport, within 6 months of Ghislaine’s arrival in New York. The money is now mostly in Epstein’s name to blur the tracks.
He promises to marry her so the money can return to Ghislaine’s control – after all this is why Robert Maxwell stole it.
‘Maxwell’ – had sons and other daughters.
The stinking can of worms is a lot bigger than you wish to speculatively restrict it to.
Consider that the fixer, thug and spin doctor to the NuLabInc Blair government was a trusty lieutenant of ‘Maxwell’ at the Daily Mirror.
The sexy dossier man – Alistair Campbell.
You don’t need a scriptwriter – just a honest investigative journalist.
And, just slightly besides the point, where are the mug shots of mrs. Maxwell?, like there would have been of any other suspect in such a big case? Only old glamour photo’s I see of her.
Is another self enamored ‘person’ conveniently going to ‘get away with’ suicide, just like Epstein?
Is the law (going to be) adjusted to accomodate for her special person, like it is being done for Assange, but then more favorable, as she is more popular with those in power?
It seems to me that if Prince Andrew were say a milkman, he would be summoned to appear in court and upon his refusal be arrested.
Where is the compromising material that she and Jeffrey blackmailed the rich and powerful with?
Sure is a lot of Israeli/Jewish involvement in this child sex ring. Harvey is just settling into his new home and now we have proof that Woody Allen, Alan Dershowitz, Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, Les Wexner, Ahud Barak, Larry Summers and many others are involved in a child sex ring.
Funny that.
Woody Allen has become what he always was, a caricature of himself
and his appetites.
His membership of the club just makes him a grotesque caricature.
All those rich powerful men are monsters and cowards also.
But definately far more monster than coward, a vicious and cruel pack.
(or should I say PAC?)
Is permitted in the Talmud. The Goy are a sub-species. They prosper because they lack conscience, and don’t believe God is watching them. We don’t need to become evil to defeat them, just mass awareness.
The Photography Has not been Destroyed.
Whilst I have very little photographic evidence, that I ever rode a motorbike, my wife just looks at them – at The Rock & Bike Fest in Derbyshire,,,and can see me drooling all over them – mainly BSA 650 Gold Star and my older brother’s Triumph 650 Tiger, after he had just rebored it.
If you haven’t experienced it, then I can’t explain it – its the torque = any gear, and the acceleratiom – its about pulling, which is why I took up gliding.
Come on , lets get this back on the road…She is not going to Die of COVID and neither are you..Just help to get us back on the road again
“Canned Heat – On The Road Again [HQ]”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRKNw477onU
Tony
EVERY DOG HAS ITS DAY Epstein worked with the intelligence agencies in a huge honeypot trap, so it’s obvious these agencies already possess detailed photos and videos of every single important and well-known person who was compromised by this operation. The FBI and CIA raided Epstein/Wexler’s $70 million dollar NYC townhome, the Bahama estate, the New Mexico compound and the Palm Beach Florida mansion and gathered the assiduously housed videos, photos and documents. At this point, the intelligence agencies are protecting government officials and billion dollar executives while also covering the CIA and Mossad involvement in this operation. After all, how could a pedofile sex ring “overtly operate” with impunity for more than two decades unless it was protected by the national security state. It’s highly unlikely the FBI did not know Ghislaine Maxwell’s whereabouts for over a year. She obviously was being shielded. As far as Dershowitz is concerned he’s little more than… Read more »
Any enemy of the Jew is the enemy of America.Any asset of the Jew is an asset to America. This is the glue that binds a dangerous alliance that flouts the international laws and fears no retaliation in doing so.Epstein had leverage; So Maxwell has it now.Both Mossad assets in America. It’s taken a year to untangle a web and make sure all remnants of forensic evidence was ‘disappeared’. All that was left to do was to demolish of testimonies of any accusers.Then it was arranged that Maxwell could be rescued from her luxury safe house and put in a hotel to dot the i’s and cross the t’s.All bases are now covered.All arses too.But I have the suspicion that one or two arses will be getting an unforeseen bite from the UK soon.
“All that was left to do was to demolish of testimonies of any accusers.Then it was arranged that Maxwell could be rescued from her luxury safe house and put in a hotel to dot the i’s and cross the t’s.All bases are now covered.”
If Maxwell poses a problem she’ll develop a deadly case of COVID-19.
Good points. Ghislaine was probably being debriefed – the carrot being this deal in which she faces watered-down charges relating only to the years 1994-97.
Grishlaine was not charged with raping any of her victims.
Epstein was killed because he was a time bomb.But he was a smart time bomb too. Don’t forget he’d ‘ taken one for the team’ a few years previous to his second imprisonment. Whatever he had on people, Maxwell did too.She was still out there loose. They could have persuaded her to hang herself from a bunk bed too but they’d have no guarantee she hadn’t left her knowledge with someone else.They’d have no clue as to where or with whom either.That’s a lot of leverage.They can’t spend the next 5 years destroying complaints or charges made against Epstein’s powerful perverts. Maxwell may or may not have damaged any kids. But if she was witness to who did and where and when, she’s a powder keg. If she’s guaranteed a charmed life from hereon in in exchange for her losing her memory then everyone’s happy.It’s comforting to know that the… Read more »
I wrote a long comment below (apparently there’s a 10,000 character limit I wasn’t aware of, I see the graphic now counting down, but I just don’t think of the length, I just say what I think needs saying, and it’s up to everyone else if they can be bothered reading it or not) and as it didn’t appear for a long while, so it looks like most people didn’t see it (didn’t rate it either negative or positive) I’ll just do a shorter precis here, as really, I think this article and a lot of the comments here are sadly missing the point. I think people need to wake up to the fact that the public are being taken for mugs by being lured to get gleeful about an in actual fact very occasional rich elite getting convicted or imprisoned for some alleged scandal or other, which may… Read more »
There are no instant results. Rest assured every elite that gets outed as a paedo and a crook helps the bovine masses awake. Also, justice must be served. You don’t do that by allowing paedos and crooks to get away with their crimes.
Yet another badly scripted drama with a predictable and unimaginative plot. We must be in the land that gave us Hollywood.Oi Vey already… I did wonder. Maxwell has a French birth certificate, ergo a French citizenship.The US wouldn’t have been able to snap it’s fingers and extradite her.France wouldn’t have to. Yet she chose to give that right up, as well as the comfort and safety of one of her many luxury homes for the four walls of a holding cell we’ll never see a picture of… So a high court judge, that was appointed by psychopathic war criminal Bush,has made a blanket decision to make a lot of potentially incriminating testimony and statements ‘disappear’. A bit like they’ve been doing to their credibility as a democracy for 50 years now.I wonder if she can even spell ‘impartial’ ? So, suddenly it seems there’s logic behind the Maxwell… Read more »
“Is this American ‘democracy’ ”
Well… er… yes.
Is anyone claiming something different?
One law for them and one for?
I still think they are trying to kill us old people off, and will continue to do so. My wife missed most of the online drumming class, but still borowed My African Drum, when she got back from The Birthday Party in the Gardens of a Pub, which I was not invited to, cos I am a bloke..She was hungry and only a bit p1ssed..so I looked at my first row of potatoes ,that I started off in March in our Back Garden…No Blight, and there are going to be a lot more down there. The first potato, I have ever grown. It is rather big, and I am now boiling it in a pan. It looks so perfect, all I did was shake the soil off, and boil it in a pan.. We are about to taste it – didn’t bother peeling it…and yes we do have some butter… Read more »
Tony, how do you know when to dig? Is it when the foliage starts to wilt and give out? (my first time with potatoes.)
American democracy is an illusion, just ask the Libyans, the Iraqis, the Somalis, the Afghans etc, etc. America has become a joke. A very sick one at that.
Anyone who needs to repeat and repeat and repeat a phrase ad nauseam is doing it out of fear you discover that they’re doing it to ensure you never realise they mean the exact opposite.Think of how many presidents have done it with their ‘liberty’ and ‘democracy’ and ‘land of the free’. Understand the nature of their looking glass world.
It is nasty, a bit like popculture. A whole lotta fluff without content.
But somewhat entertaining. Part of “consensus trance”. Classroom indoctrination.
America is a puppet to the rich.
The rich come from all corners of the earth.
The .0001percent work together to control all population”””s world wide!!!
To make this out to be just an american problem is just ignorant!!!
Please wake up before it is too late!!!
The chances of the courts getting to the bottom of this are of the snowball in hell variety.
Just think back to the Simpson and Jackson trials, people who were infinitely less well connected.
Since when did a judge destroy evidence? Why?
If it’s false or dangerous, let it be shown to be so.
They’d have to show you who it was dangerous to then though.And then the real shit would hit the real fan.That they’ve moved mountains and killed Epsteins to make this go away tells you the real danger in those secrets.
Trump;Clinton/s;Gates;Musk;Bloomberg….Since when did the most successful billionaire businessmen have to travel to Epstein to buy ‘investment advice ‘?
It sounds like America have bent and broken the constitution again in the name of Israel and their assets.
Boring. Hardly anyone in the UK is interested in this, and I bet most of our friends in the US aren’t interested either. Epstein is dead FFS! Just let it go. It’s just like Savile. The Establishment and MSM wouldn’t let that one go, even though he was dead.
I do get that hardly anyone in the UK is interested in this, but this “this” that you are talking about nevertheless has great significance for the entire judicial system. It is not even a proven fact beyond all doubt that Epstein is dead – the only “evidence” we have is what the media have been allowed to throw at us – but my point is that destroying evidence has never been a normal thing to do, even when the alleged criminal and the victims are dead. Justice isn’t really a matter exclusively for people who are not dead, and the corrupt environment in which certain crimes, like Savile’s, were committed, is not something to be swept under the carpet and forgotten until somebody writes a best-seller about it after 50 years. This is a case of, “With respect, Your Honour, no way in Hell are we going to cooperate… Read more »
No one has mentioned all the victims of these perverted so-called important people who slunk to that island to sate their slimy perversions on impressionable young girls..All herded and collected by the disgusting madam maxwell..May they rot in hell..Clintons.et al.
I wouldn’t gamble to much as to whether he’s dead, he’s probaly enjoying life in the country we dare not mention
Why would I care to accept the dead verdict on the old Epper?
It is just another extension of all the criminality and deception
that went on before. Its presumed inevitability is its legitimacy as a con.
Smoke & mirrors.
“Justice”in 2020 looks a lot like 460 B.C. best expressed by Thrasymachus: Justice “is the opinion of the powerful.”
US Courts, especially the Supreme, act increasingly as a jock strap for oligarchy.
There is an answer. Self-mastery, through submitting, not to oligarchy’s commands, but the moral law of God.
spitting image randy andy
I have little interest in this. I think (whilst the topic is very real) it is just a distraction, from the very real evil going on now – all over most of the world, so I have been reading some of the comments, posted here over the last few weeks, and some of the comments are totally brilliant, and even better than the original articles headlined here, that they are commenting on. Thank you Off-Guardian for providing this forum, when almost the entire rest of the world has gone mad. I don’t blame them, I was just completely amazed that both Caitlin Johnstone and Bernhard MOA got infected by this mind virus, and still can’t see it. My current top of the pops poster here, though sometimes he annoys me a bit, is not Dungroanin, though he seems to be getting better, its wardropper, especially when he is… Read more »
The video is brilliant, but at the same time only effective with people for whom this form of propaganda has no effect- which is the whole issue. The mob is impacted by ‘the voice of authority’, and the message from that voice doesn’t matter, since the mob subjects it to NO critical analysis.
As for your ‘heroes’ having feet of clay- well I’m sorry. Game Theory at a time like this has to reveal many ‘deep’ Deep State agents. Go research East Germany, and the fantastic number of people revealed to have been working for the state when Germany finally re-united. By the way, it is people from EAST Germany who now control the re-unified Germany.
The Elites always look after themselves.
Clearly that “judge” is also part of the gang… They usually are!
Destruction of evidence is now judicial procedure. I am unclear. Please explain further.
They just do that when they need to PROTECT their Shepherds (Billionaires) and Owners (SRF)…
I’m aware that what I’m about to say might not go over very well, but it needs to be said: Epstein and company were reprehensible because they preyed on those particular teenage girls’ legitimate need for money and their awe and fear of power. But not because they had sex with adolescents. Defining as ‘pedophilia’ sex with reproductively viable people has been a hysteria of the past few decades. It is not only backward looking, but it requires a denial of basic knowledge and understanding of the world. For whatever overall importance it might have to society, it is a form of tyranny over the mind, and there have been plenty of individuals oppressed by it, and it has mushroomed into other neo-Victorian injustices. Teenagers are sexually active with each other; long lasting romances between teens and considerably older people have a long history; and some teenage… Read more »
This needs more definition in order not to be dismissed as propaganda. Are you talking about 12 year olds or 19 year olds?
I’m talking generally about high school age people, which where I come from is about 15 to 18 year old. How can this be propaganda? Propaganda for what?
Your second paragraph. You are defending Epstein and company as sex traffickers with underage girls, which I believe is under 18 in the US?
comment out of order; delete
That’s rather odious and completely ignores that whilst a 12 year girl will start menstruating she isn’t yet mentally and psychologically mature to be able to make life and death decisions.
She will also be open to predators whom she openly trusts, such as teachers.
I’d go as far to say that you’re attempting to get this site targeted and taken down by the authorities by posting such degenerate views and defending illegal acts. Admin needs to deal with this immediately.
Pimping/prostitution are illegal not matter what age the prostitutes are.
So call them pimps then. Pedophilia is technically attraction (in adults) to pre-pubescent children, which according to one definition I’ve seen means children aged 13 or below, although of course the age of puberty varies with the individual. I’ve not taken that much interest, but as far as I know, the girls involved with Epstein and his friends were quite a bit older than 13, although may still have been under the age of consent in some US states (which apparently varies from 16 to 18), so anyone having sexual relations with these girls may have been committing a crime, but pedophilia would not have been an accurate description. However, the media love to use the P word because it sells newspapers, attracts web clicks, and grabs attention on TV. I agree with Tony Opmoc that this story is being used as a major distraction from what… Read more »
I think the correct term for adults attracted and having sexual relations with teens is called pedestry, something far more common in history than many realise, especially in roman Greek culture, however there is a big difference between a 16 year old and 20 year old, compared to a 13 year old and a 50 year old, and to lump both those relationships as if equitable, under the same label, really distorts how different they are. Even worse, when we label pedestry and pedaphilia as one thing then we label vastly different relations : must, I hope would agree any adult having sexual relations with a pre pubescent child is not only illegal but immoral, the abuse can range from mild acts to sever but there’s no debate amongst moral folk, however in pedestry there may be some they areas, what about a 15 year old girl with a 20… Read more »
Yes Nikoz, pederasty is the correct legal term, the latter half of the word derives from “eros”, sexual love/desire. The term paedophile, literally translated as “love of children”, appears to have become more popular, at least in Britain, in the 1970’s.
The Paedophile Information Exchange attempted to ride the coat tails of the 60’s sexual revolution by mounting a PR campaign to legalise the practice. It was even given air-time on the BBC, which I personally saw and was disgusted at. They even had a young female law student defending them, who later became a QC and then a prominent UK politician.
The public backlash saw them disappear from view in short order, but the re-framed term “paedophile” appears to have continued in use since then.
Here is an idea: given what we know, and documented evidence,
let’s just not. Let us be careful and hesitant.
Let’s decide that what went before was the writing on the wall.
(not spaffing, writing) The different names and games are just that.
Be decent, and don’t fuck 15 year olds. It IS as easy as it sounds.
Every normal, decent human being would agree with your concluding sentence, but rich pederasts like the members of the Epstein club believe they are entitled to have anything they want. The sex offender’s hyper-sexual psychopathology, related to the lust for power of their psychopathy, drives them to seek ever more sexual gratification. They become de-sensitised to normal sexual conduct and look for excitement in more “exotic” sexual practices. This leads them on to even more perverted forms of conduct. Their psychopathic profile also makes them see the subjects of their desires as mere objects, they have no empathy whatsoever. This is why run of the mill psychopathic pederasts will often murder their victims to avoid prosecution. When you put extreme wealth into the equation it allows them to buy people as easily as any commodity purchase and insulates them from any normal legal penalties. This has been… Read more »
mr reacharound
no mention of israel in the spaghetti that was your word soup
the scam that is this case is the lie that the girls on mossad island little sait james where nearly adult
no mention of real children never to be found
No mention of blackmail operations, intelligence, satanic rituals, and much else besides.
It also needs to be said that some of these girls were age 12-14.
Officialdom treated girls of that age in the UK who were victims of grooming gangs as willing prostitutes. We all know how that turned out.
This could be described as the Gary Glitter defence.
I was 5, as was my best mate Bernard Witney. His older sister Stephanie Witney was 7. I don’t think we did that much more than playing doctors and nurses, but I dream that we did. They then went off to Australia, as did my first love Susan Speakman…She was 18 months old when I met her, when I was 3.
I realised when I was 8 years old, all my Best Friends, who lived a few doors away, had left Oldham and gone to Australia
We never had bombs dropping on us, but we did use to play in bombed out mills from WWII in the walk home from our Primary School Corpus Christi
We didn’t know anything else, but we weren’t afraid of NAZI’s bombing us again.
I am now.
Tony
What you say, Reachable Spike, is fine except for one thing, it’s illegal, the law says ‘no’ to having sex with a minor.
You want to legalise it, you take to the streets, shout as the BLM crowds do, lobby the lawmakers or whatever it takes, that’s the way to do it. Simply saying, well, it’s been going on for as long as anyone can remember isn’t good enough, murders have been going on for equally long time, we punish those who murder because the law says murder’s a capital crime, those indulging in it must be punished.
You seem to be suggesting it is not reprehensible for rich powerful individuals to take advantage of procure young impressionable girls for sex?
Which I think is odious enough but it should also be pointed out that a lot of what Epstein and Maxwell were allegedly carrying out against these girls was according to Virginia Roberts and others testimonies rape.
Rape against 14 year old girls. Perhaps though you see a charge of rape as injustice also?
Alan Dershowitz: hmmm – where have I heard that name before? Oh, that’s right: he’s the very one who said citizens have no right to refuse a vaccine; and the government has a perfect right to take hold of your arm and stick a needle in it.
And now he’s being accused of having sex with a minor. Well, I don’t know about you, but I’ll sure contribute to his defense! I’ll address my contribution to that parallel universe where accused pedophiles get to preach morality and legality to the rest of us.
Of course you’ve heard of Douche-owitz before. He was OJ’s laywer.
Ah yes, remember OJ.Apparently his life mattered more than people realised.Or don’t they like to talk about that in the trendy ‘outrage circles’
some many even trans folks can look good in the youth but the manly traits show through with age testosterone or oestrogen can oly do so much the higher level ashkanazim have many sons who become daughters this one here certainly starting to look a little male. the fat mossad agent robert ha ha maxwell born Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch certainly had all his sons and daughters working for the when israel is mighty projects. this is all a bad play the boat Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch fell off was it not called lady ghislaine nice touch all a poor script for the dumb goyim mcalpine maxwell janner leon britain i here are in italy and israel all very happy epstein and schimon elliot elliot simons isis head al bagdaddy baggage also had new faces cut in israel as did… Read more »
Admin, getting a message “Input is too long” when saving an edited post. Is this a new restriction on characters. I see a countdown in the top right corner when writing a new post but no character indication when editing.
Of course your input is too long as per below.
This place is meant to be for reasonable length, succinct comments, not a replacement for personal blogs.
Good to see OffG finally dealing with people hijacking their website and abusing their community.
We are experimenting with restricting comment length to deter the kind of troll posting that posts a 5,000 word comment with multiple links that effectively breaks the thread. The limit is set to 10,000 characters which ought to be more than enough for 99.9% of comments. How long was the comment in question?
4,420 characters, as below. While editing that would have varied by 200 characters either way but I could not save as “Input is too long”. BTW I see limit of 8,000 characters as I type this.
Yes it is 8,000 not 10,000. Have you tried editing other comments? Does this happen every time?
Test
Whitney Webb on the nexus of the Maxwell sisters and surveillance software, with which the Maxwell family has been involved for 40 years. Though many of the Maxwell products have been incorporated into Microsoft and other software used by the alphabet agencies, the Maxwells’ continuing prominence helps to provide cover for the broader surveillance project. All of this is happening with the blessing of the CIA… Israel is just building the infrastructure. You have the former chief information officer of the CIA on the board of SEPIO SYSTEMS with an ex Mossad director. Israel provides great cover for U.S. agencies like the CIA. No-one pays attention to the billionaires who are surveilling and manipulating the country. The media won’t discuss it for fear of being called anti-semitic. Epstein put $1 million into CARBINE 911, chaired by Ehud Barrack. Michael Chertoff of DHS is there, with Christian Neilsen,… Read more »
That’s a wealth of information. Thank you.
Anyone who wants to retain any semblance of confidentiality or privacy needs to avoid electronic communications completely. Use couriers, motorcycle messengers, simple codewords and the like. Electronic communications should be exploited to spread false and misleading information and lay false trials. All these systems should be regarded as hopelessly compromised and treated accordingly.
A prime reason for wartime Axis defeats was the penetration of their communications. In some instances, like the 1944 Ardennes offensive, much greater success and surprise were achieved by using messengers rather than radio nets.
Correction: Christopher Ketcham, author of This Land, does some great writing about the American West as well as about security topics.
http://www.christopherketcham.com/
The Israeli “art student” mystery — https://www.salon.com/2002/05/07/students/
Virginia Giuffre should disseminate all of her information as quickly and widely as she is able to. Corrupt authorities, including judges, are her enemy. They are the enemy of democracy (as in fairness and equality and justice). Where are judges in covid 1984?
Whitney Webb’s discussion of this with Ryan Cristian is good. She’s also spoken with Virginia at length and you can listen to those conversations on The Last American Vagabond.
Giuffre – the focus on JUST her accusations is the false-flag upon which the whole thing will be swept away.
Just like they used the single accuser in the U.K. establishment paedophillia inquiry and are brushing the inquiry under the carpet.
Such is the way of false flags, limited hang outs and propaganda merchants across the FULL spectrum of media.
————
The only hope is that the local prosecutors in Florida and real investigative journalists and fearless lawyers and independent judges will use the US constitution and courts to get justice for the thousands of children who were and are abused daily.
When we look at world events, it is very hard or possibly impossible to see anything truly objectively, because we all tend to have our own personal “axes to grind”, our own pet causes and loves and hates, mostly about groups or persons we would like to “point the finger at”, to blame, and what “causes” we want to promote, which we personally think are the most important, which may or may not be so to others or the majority. e.g. the author here apparently sees the causes as about “justice for abused girls” or “the public interest” or perhaps “justice for all, not only elites”, or whatever. I think it’s very easy to “knee jerk” react to these kinds of stories and events, and no doubt a lot of people are very motivated by their hate and envy or rich elite types like Miss (I haven’t seen… Read more »
Good Lord, do you really expect us to read all that? How about condensing it to a short form that proves you know what the hell you’re talking about, and if anyone comments, elaborate?
Whitney Webb’s take: The wealthy are not afraid because the Maxwell case is going to be protracted, secret, and buried under the insane news cycle of coronavirus, civil unrest and geopolitical tensions. It is not going to be like last year. Ghislaine will have bail because the charges are so light. “Conspiracy to entice minors, and enticement of a minor, to travel to engage in illegal sex acts; conspiracy to transport minors, and transportation of a minor, with intent to engage in criminal sexual activity, and two of perjury.” She is only charged with enticing minors to travel. Why did they limit the years to 1994-97? Because in that period Bill Clinton, Alan Dershowitz and Prince Andrew were not in the orbit. Trump will not be involved based on these charges – even though Trump and ex-wife Ivana were in Epstein’s orbit during this time frame with… Read more »
Wasn’t it Barr’s father who gave Epstein his teaching job?
Also, note interesting comments near the end of the interview: as with that the chaos (in the US for example) is deliberately being pushed and assisted, as in parallel to the fear-porn of the virus, toward “manufactured consent.” As with: “The more divided the people become, the more they can justify imposition by force.”
If there are any Qanons here, let me advise you not to expect anything earth-shaking to come out of Maxwell’s trial. The fact that she left the safety of France for New Hampshire to be arrested shows that a deal has already been struck. This trial, consequently, is going to be a very, very limited hang-out. Note that, a few days before her arrest, the former US Attorney on the case, who had been pulling hard to get Prince Andrew to give an official deposition, had been dismissed and replaced already. That probably indicates that there was deal between Washington and London to hush up the Royal angle of the story. In exchange, Buckingham Palace likely offered to ‘deliver’ Maxwell to Washington in order to provide them with a face-saving exit, so long as they agreed to drop their deposition request against Prince Andrew. So it was likely the… Read more »
Hello! Eric Z resurfaces. Somethings afoot. (?) So the Epstein saga … it seems it’s a goodtime to bury it while the US goes through maximum CV burn. Where’s Bono? Some amusing tidbits missing from our coverage in the U.K. ( these IDF supremos love a laugh apparently with their japes) 1. The hidey-hole – which isn’t really A hole – being 150 acre estate and massive home at the end of a long drive – is called ‘TUCKEDAWAY’ ! I kid you not – It was bough just 7 months ago for a $1 million cash in the name of a company called Granite Realty !! 2. Born in France, raised in Britain, living in the US she has passports for all 3 ( any more??) , She has been jet-setting frequently including here to the U.K. , Japan, Qatar …15 international flights in 3 years. So not really… Read more »
I have been talking a lot here about the behavior of my colleagues, and not so much about my friends. This has a reason, that is that I don’t like to talk about my friends because when I do, I distance myself from them in order to be able to describe them. For colleagues I don’t feel this problem as I have never seen them as ‘friends’ only as persons that I share rooms and conversations with as part of a job. But for friends, this is different. In contrast to colleagues, I really like to see myself similar as to my friends: in terms of past, present and future. I like to mingle with my friends in a way where we can talk about our previous ‘adventures’, our current ‘troubles’ (mainly) in terms of work (in the absence of any other troubles that we don’t have as we are… Read more »
Do you mean misanthrope?
“I am not a misogynist, and think that of all species humans are the most interesting, yet do agree that human intimacy often ends with the porcupine dilemma as explained by Schopenhauer.”
Schopenhauer was a misogynist.
That strikes me as a rather idiosyncratic judgement.
lol Why is that not surprising coming from you, Steve? The guy who thought I didn’t understand that a moral compass is a metaphor, now thinks one of the most well-known misogynists in history is just a personal judgement on my part. You’re a clown 😀
What evidence can you cite to support the assertion that Schopenhauer was a misogynist?
This is the last time I’m going to engage you. You’re a waste of my not-so-valuable time.
From Arthur Schopenhauer’s essay entitled, “On Women”:
“The Nature Of Female
One needs only to see the way she is built to realize that woman is not intended for great mental or for great physical labor….
Women are suited to being the nurses and teachers of our earliest childhood precisely because they themselves are childish, silly and short-sighted, in a word big children, their whole lives long: a kind of intermediate stage between the child and the man, who is the actual human being, ‘man.’”
The entire essay is that stupid.
It seems strange to single out Schopenhauer as a misogynist on the basis of these views which were unexceptional at the time. Indeed, there are far more obviously misogynist people from that time and even closer to our own time. Nietzsche or Freud, for example, spring to mind. Singling out the merely conventional as an example of an extreme position seems idiosyncratic to say the least.
You asked for evidence.
She gave you evidence.
You lost the argument.
Get over yourself.
So you think of all the people in the world the exemplar is Schopenhauer. Well, frankly that seems idiosyncratic.
“Now one interesting fact, a life experience, that happened to me and my friends at the same time is that we were all very close to a terrorist attack in 2002: the Balibombings, where a friend of mine died, and I nearly escaped death.”
I thought you were a bit spooky – thanks for the confirmation.
👻👻👻
😉
I wanted to say nothing about this. I hold strongly opposed views to many of those expressed – not least whether a polarised debate at this point helps or is fair. However, your thoughtful comments have spoiled my good intentions. It seems so easy to convince us these days that we are right and those who oppose are not just mistaken or misguided but evil and corrupt. That does not accord with the world I encounter when I leave the house every day. It seems to me just as naive to believe serious allegations without evidence as it is to imagine they cannot be true – only much more unattractive/unfair. I’m sorry to say I see polarised opinions as not just unfair but credulous. It seems very dangerous to believe that (democrats/rich people/americans/judges/jews/black people/defence attorneys/Chinese – the list is literally endless) are all evil and corrupt and that all the… Read more »
Perp walks and mugshots may also be ended – efforts have gained momentum since the George Floyd incident but giving helpful anonymity to elite criminals who tend to be the ones the press is interested in.
End jury trials and you have pretty good secrecy to cover for the misdeeds of the rich. Watch all countries follow in lockstep.
Limits on jury trials may be needed says LCJ – Jun 16th 2020 https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/limits-on-jury-trials-may-be-needed-says-lcj/5104649.article
Resetting the relationship between the press and the police – Jun 11th 2020 https://www.cjr.org/the_media_today/police_reform_media_george_floyd.php
NYPD blasts proposal to end ‘perp walks’ – Jun 27th, 2019 https://nypost.com/2019/06/27/nypd-blasts-proposal-to-end-perp-walks/
Barristers opposed it in the U.K.
I am puzzled by the author’s final (rhetorical) question. Litigation is not democratic. It is a contest between parties, observing the relevant legal rules, using evidence to prosecute and defend conflicting positions. It is not an election for public office or a referendum to decide public policy. The purpose is not democratic decision-making; the purpose is the administration of justice. And the judge’s order – that evidence be destroyed – is clearly contrary to the administration of justice. That should have been the conclusion, rather than the rhetorical non sequitur.
The Maxwell sisters are deeply embedded in Silicon Valley through companies like Chiliad, Magellan and Cyren, which stem from their father’s involvement with Promis.
Ghislaine’s twin sisters get little attention – Christine and Isabel, the latter got her anti-terror software into the alphabet agencies.
Excerpts here: https://twitter.com/_whitneywebb?lang=en
Full interview here: Whitney Webb Returns | The Tim Dillon Show (Jul 4th, 2020)
Do these rich people ever say, ‘Let’s not rape kids today. Let’s go on the boat and have brunch‘? This sexual blackmail involving children goes back to the 1940s, possibly earlier. Abide by a certain set of rules and rape kids as much as you like. They don’t live like normal people. Les Wexner’s friends spent hours watching Maria Farmer through pinhole cameras in his guest house. They have so much money but they are paranoid. That’s how mob families are. The Bronfmans are tied up in Nxivm. One of the Bronfman kids staged his own kidnapping in the 1980s to get more money out of his dad. A lot of people in this Epstein orbit have a history of ties to organized crime and intelligence. There is always a cost of admission. Everybody’s got something on somebody else. Is this who’s running the planet? Great lines from… Read more »
Everyone has read about Epstein, Maxwell. Clinton and the rest. Now they’re reading that a high court judge has decided to take the side of the accused pre-trial and destroy anything that may incriminate her.Such accusations would frame her has a child procurer or worse.A judge doing this is acting on behalf of the court.The court represents the constitution of America.The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that children’s lives don’t matter.Where are their protesters ?or do the children have to be a different colour.
July 2020. Judge orders ‘destruction’ of evidence in the Epstein case.
January 2021. The oligarchy behind the world’s central bank, the Fed, orders the removal of all alternative media and destruction of inconvenient evidence of their ongoing coup, under cover of a series of power blackouts worldwide. That helped further in the reduction of population in every country. The story promoted to the public : a massive solar storm…
…in “their” “System of Law”, there is no crime if all of the “victims” are Goyim…and i am not saying that “they” are “Jews”…in my view, they are Satanic [Sabbattean] and believe themselves to be above “our” jurisdiction….and they can present in whichever form suits their purpose…reject their controlling “Religions”, starting with Money magick, and they will fall…just a little wish of mine….!!!
Related to this, I watched an old film about a woman suspecting that her husband is being hypocritical with her, and might even have hidden motives. It was thrilling watching her intelligently gather evidence to present it to him, her friends, or at a court. Meanwhile, her husband had just intended to kill her, which he soon did.
Oh, but it wasn’t a movie. It was some of the best of the alternative media gathering evidence of Western elites’ hypocrisy.
Just what do they want to achieve… IRL.
That something more can be done is shown by an old man, Vernon Coleman. Near the end of his powers, he puts forward ideas on what to do, at home and in public. It may be even better when somebody like Rancourt asks for a readers’ input.
Who knows whether any of the arrest story is even true? What is more interesting about the Maxwell arrest story is that is another sign the puppetmasters behind the coronavirus scam are panicking and throwing another bone to the plebs, who they clearly fear have seen through their lies. Their PR tactic all along seems to have been to create fake divisions among both ordinary people (Black Lives Matter etc) while creating a good cop v bad cop set-up among the elites (paedophiles v good guys, Cummings v Sedwill, Meghan v Kate etc). It is quite possble the Maxwell arrest story is also some kind of attempt to blackmail and threaten members of the elite to keep in with the coronavirus narrative or face exposure. The Prince Andrew situation has always seemed like a blatant attempt by the US ‘deep state’ to pressure the UK monarchy – and therefore the… Read more »
The CIA have now got the ability to accuse anyone they like of child abuse, guilty or not, which was the whole point of Epstein project in the first place.
What do the CIA want from the Royals?, that they are blackmailing Prince Andrew? …….. HRH Queen Megan perhaps..? The first American royal dynasty ? All part of the ongoing CIA led far-right coup and the making of the new-age in the image of American Empire.
Randy Andy, arrogant and not very bright, to put it charitably, was probably useful to Epstein and Maxwell to attract blackmail targets to the paedo parties. He would attract social climbers of the kind you get particularly in the US. He could also confer bogus respectability on them.
‘Only One of Us Is Telling the Truth.’ The Biggest Moments From Prince Andrew Accuser Virginia Giuffre’s BBC Interview https://time.com/5742379/virginia-giuffre-prince-andrew-bbc-interview/
Justitia (Lady Justice) was not cheating on her blindfold; some modern day copies like Preska , Baraitser and Arbuthnot keep one eye on the Five Eyes for clues.
Stop pretending that Anglo justice is better than world average: only the cover ups are. No more pretending & preaching!
Looks like “the games afoot” to get Ghislaine “off the hook”. It’s always amazing to observe the lengths the establishment goes to to protect its criminality. In the UK Auntie Beeb and Brenda have always taken industrious measures the keep their linen clean. This international scandal will no doubt take the vanishing act to an all new level.
Criminality is whence the establishment derives its wealth. As the saying goes, “you can ask me how I made every billion but the first.” The amassing of great private wealth by fair and equitable means has always been the exception to the rule. New wealth should come, like discoveries, from outside the system and thus represent a challenge to the establishment. Yet most great wealth is amassed from within the establishment; not new money but the redistribution of wealth: a government contract, a monopoly, or a sinecure, which gives the right to impose fees or charge for a stamp, like a notary but on a massive scale. See how a little deal with the U.S. Post Office makes Amazon possible. See how many new billionaires were incubated at DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. This is Oligarchical Collectivism as described by George Orwell in 1984, precisely the… Read more »