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WATCH: The Face Mask Debate

Digi-Debates is a website and youtube channel which hosts online academic debates on important topical issues of the day. Their latest edition, Vol 7, was titled “The Mask Debate” and originally live-streamed on Friday the 24th of July and moderated by Petar Josic, the producer.

We encourage you all to visit their website and follow their youtube channel and their twitter.

The Resolution

With mandatory masking being enacted by governments around the world, in an attempt to mitigate the spread of the coronavirus, many questions have surfaced as to whether or not these measures work. What do you think?

Do public mask mandates help curb the spread of the virus?

Affirming the Resolution

David Kyle Johnson is a professor of philosophy at King’s College (PA), who specializes in (among other things) logic, argumentation, philosophy of science, and the refutation of pseudoscience. And he also he maintains a blog for Psychology Today, called “A Logical Take,” where he routinely identifies fallacious arguments and debunks pseudoscience.

You can read his full bio here and his written response to Dr Rancourt’s work here.

Negative to the Resolution

Denis Rancourt holds B.Sc., M.Sc. and Ph.D. (University of Toronto) university degrees in physics. He has been a Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council (NSERC) of Canada international post-doctoral candidate in prestigious research laboratories in both France and The Netherlands. He became a national NSERC University Research Fellow, in Canada. He was a professor of physics at the University of Ottawa for 23 years, attaining the highest academic rank of tenured Full Professor.

You can read his full bio here, and his paper “Why Masks Don’t Work”, here.

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remo morris
remo morris
Aug 1, 2020 11:28 PM

For the record:
https://truepundit.com/exclusive-hard-hitting-blistering-raw-interview-on-anthony-fauci-uncovers-far-more-disturbing-dirt-top-virologist-dr-judy-mikovits-cuts-loose-like-never-before/

Transcribed from Thomas Paine Podcast episode 34/ Judy Mikovits @22:11
“The Manufacturing Facility of the CoronaVirus is..is a Cell-Line., an immortalised cell-line. Called VeroE6 Monkey Kidney cell. Which China got in 2012 -13, Published, in ‘Nature Medicine’ BY Fauci..that..that he paid for it and he shipped the manufacturing facility to Wuhan, and he shipped…they added the Bat Tissue to..and they shipped it around the world! that’s the truth ! And he wrote it himself in the paper. 
Where did we originally get the cell-line ? Oh. Fort Detrick . What is that cell-line ? Oh. It’s the very same cell-line that XMRV’s carried…that…that polio vaccines carried the XMRV’s and SIV’s and (undec ‘bar40’?), around the world.
Y’know; yeah ! Vero Monkey Kidney Cells. What’s your intermediary…intermediate Host? Whats your manufacturing Facility ? An Immortalised continuously growing cell-line that you grow in 200litre formulators(?) like wine or craft-beer. And, oh…that happens to be…you’re doing that in the same facilities you are making Polio Vaccines ! You’re making MMR vaccines ! You’re making..oh..FLU vaccines. ..(undec..around the world?..) No seafood market ‘went around the world’ ! One Lady ! I mean..it..it’s STUPID . How do you get to a hundred and ninety eight… a hundred and ninety countries ? You have a VIAL..o..of continuously growing cells in your Pocket!! And I can say this with great confidence. Because I did this in the nineties with EBOLA..when they..and they tried to do the EBOLA thing in 2014 and they played the same ZIKA game in 2017 ..y’know he can’t..they can’t bullshit the person who was there working in the Labs. That happens to be the stupid women who these arsehole old boys network go for….. Tony Fauci hasn’t been in a Lab since 1984 when I first heard his name ! Nah. tony Fauci doesn’t go into the Lab..Tony Fauci puts all these women in his Labs..in..in the Labs.. in his cancer institutes..and and puts them at risk over their entire lives and their progeny and they’re all the ones that die. They’re my friends… That’s what’s in the book. I got lucky., I chose the HIV virus ..I said “AY..I’ll take the deadly gay man virus..I don’t like to see the (undec)..no fun doing colon….(undec) ..as a Technician..as a 24 year old..and it ultimately saved my life. But I got infected in 2010..as did millions of people when those Mouse Leukaemia virus – cancer causing viruses were found to be contagious. Oh. Spread just like Covid coughing in a large water droplets and now you’re going to tell me and my husband and every Lab worker and every person and every Military and every first responder of 911 that they have to wear a mask !? Activate the virus and kill yourself? Uh Uh. I’m not doing assisted suicide. I’m not suicidal.” 25:30

rraa
rraa
Aug 1, 2020 9:52 PM

I read a comment on ZH by someone who claimed to be OSHA certified. They said:
N95 masks are used for contaminated environments. They filter air on the way IN to protect the wearer. They do not filter exhaled air.
Surgical masks are used in sterile environments. Surgical masks are used as a physical barrier to
protect the user from hazards, such as splashes of large droplets of blood or body fluids.
Surgical masks also protect other people against infection from the person wearing the surgical
mask. Such masks trap large particles of body fluids that may contain bacteria or viruses
expelled by the wearer.
Respirators protect wearer from airborne contaminants and offer the best protection for workers who must work closely (either in contact with or within 6 feet) with people who have influenza‑like symptoms in occupations classified as high exposure risk.
Cloth masks are basically rubbish. Of course, if you have a terrible cough and absolutely need to go out when you are hacking away, it would be a courtesy to cover your face with something, anything. But as a general purpose thing with people walking around with masks under their chins, on their elbows, all the designer silk versions….it’s nonsense.

smith
smith
Aug 1, 2020 12:41 AM

Very strange debate with “Kyle” acting so intolerable to others view. It is sad to see such childish behavior by as so called professional. My first statement for Kyle would be,” My state has recommended mask for over a month, based on COVID positive patients having a 2 week quarantine period, then we should not have any additional cases in my state if the mask work as you declare.” In my state, cases have continued to increase which disregards Kyle’s hostile argument. Testing has increased greatly, even health people are being tested which we have not seen before with any infectious dx prior to COVID. I hold a Master’s in Public Health from Tulane School of Public Health. According to the FDA, a mask is considered a medial device. In no way should anyone but a treating MD request that someone (patient) should wear a medical device. The public should not allow government bodies to impose medial interventions upon any persons. This should be an issue between patient and treating physician. As my husband, a Cardiologist, states he has never requested a patient in his 35 years of practice to wear a mask due to the fact there is not scientific proof mask are effective. MDs wear mask IN A STERILE environment to prevent bacterial particles from infecting a wound during a surgical procedure, not to prevent virus.
I have reviewed many studies on surgical mask use in hospital STERILE setting with regard to infectious disease. Furthermore until the very recent article the PhD mentioned, there has not been a study of the general public using mask and even states that mask used by public provide false security for the public and the mishandling of such causes additional bacteria and viral load, especially cloth mask. There is no doubt that mask restrict breathing and if a patient/person has any chronic health condition such as heart dx, a mask should not be worn at all, or for periods of time without removing for proper breathing. This is truly a common sense issue. I am surprised to see this guy Kyle being interviewed as a so called professional.

Rob
Rob
Jul 31, 2020 3:45 AM

Here’s a nice review article, courtesy of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the U of Minnesota, from a pair of medical researchers (not philosophers or physicists?) with 50+ journal references:

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jul 31, 2020 1:33 AM

Posting BTL in the Off-Guardian is fun for me because now I that am permanently Off-Duty with terminal senility and the Off-Guardian doesn’t prohibit Off-Language in favour of polite and/or academically respectable phraseology, I can say what I think, whether it is carefully considered in the manner of rational debate or carelessly inconsiderate in the manner of a barroom brawl (the default mode of a majority of BTLers) in the rough vernacular that surrounded me during my first childhood. There is something curiously satisfying about relaying a conclusion I’ve reached–after long, meticulous research and precise, difficult ratiocination that has then, of occupational necessity, been followed by a long period of tediously accurate and repeatedly revised expression before its final presentation–with, instead of the latter, a few casual “fuckwit”s or “fuckoff”s.

In that light, may I suggest that–however exciting his Straight-As are to all his pupils, dumb and clever alike, and however nice he was to his elders and teachers while putatively growing up. and however sincerely his seemingly rebellious libertarian anarchism (or whatever it might be called) has been thought through, or his anti-AGW stance is grounded in a deeper understanding of true environmental science than that attainable by any practitioners of mere climate science–to the less informed amongst us such as my good self, Rancourt comes off as a raving nutter who couldn’t line up a logical argument outwith the physical and mathematical limits of his pre-doctorate Toronto degrees even half as well as any three ducks of assorted sizes but similar asciipearance can order themselves up an ornamental wall.

Carey
Carey
Aug 1, 2020 1:42 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

Why all the useless prefatory bullshit, dude? Say what you have to say, if anything.

77th / don’t bother

Todd
Todd
Jul 30, 2020 9:43 PM

Right off the bat I would say this debate is flawed because it was never made clear what “work” means in the debate topic “do masks work”…what does “work” mean? I would assume it means “mitigate the spread of disease in a statistically relevant way”…the claims of “no Covid if everyone wore a mask for 6 to 8 weeks” is a big claim…what is the SCIENCE behind that? The “work” in the phrase “do masks work” could be limited to the conclusion “masks work if someone verified to have Covid sneezes within six feet of a healthy person, the person receiving the sneeze has less than a 10% chance of acquiring the disease”…prove THAT. Wouldn’t that then mean them “working” or not is irrelevant? It would be so unusual to meet that criteria? How often will you run across someone WITH the disease that is compelled to sneeze on you? But to stop Covid in its tracks in 6 weeks? Is that what “masks work” means? Prove THAT. Do masks still “work” if people wearing them do not have the disease?

I think they needed to be more specific with defining the word “work” in this context. Because they do work if work is defined in a specific way. But who cares? But them working within that very limited criteria would not make their mandatory use a wise and effective action considering all the trouble that wearing them causes.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jul 31, 2020 2:10 AM
Reply to  Todd

If you are going to be ‘scientific’ you should start by being scientific:

Even N95 respirators will not stop airborne particles of SARS-CoV-2, which can apparently hang around much longer and travel much further than even strong air currents can carry the much larger, optically resolvable drops or splashes of snot and gob that a covered sneeze or cough, even just into one’s inner elbow’s clothing, can prevent from landing on a surface that the next persons passing might then get onto their hands before rubbing the itches in the corners of their eyes. Did you not allow for covered bent inner elbows in your uncontrolled mind experiments? Your bad.

And you should conclude by being logical:

What government or enterprise could realistically mandate the wearing of an expensive Harris tweed sports coat when the no-hoper me-first dumbfucks with amongst us here BTL kick up all hell at the idea of even just a simple gauze mask? Do you imagine they want to be ridiculed as well as being voted out or boycotted?

Terry
Terry
Jul 30, 2020 6:35 PM

If much more advanced socialogical and technologically advanced people like Persians and Chinese are doing it, then why can’t we follow suit like we do when big brother tells us to jump

Nicos
Nicos
Jul 30, 2020 3:56 AM

Why I am against the mask….

Firstly, in any trial the burden must be on those proposing extreme measures, and forcing hundreds if millions to wear masks is certainly extreme, and any extreme measures need to be backed up by firm evidence. The data from alleged covid 19, (if any of it is trustworthy, and that’s debatable, so say the least,) shows the people who are reported to suffer from it are nearly all very elderly and / or have serious pre existing health conditions, the vast majority of the public are not at any risk, and quite competent to get over it, and can even develop immunity from it.

So, that alone is sufficient to reject the mandatory measures of mask wearing, because the majority don’t need protection, their immune systems do that for them. The only scientific evidence for masks would be for those working closely with infectious patients, or those that have infectious symptoms and are visiting those who are ill, but that’s always been the case for all infections actually.

There are a number of reasons to be against mask wearing….

Studies show that due to the hot air of breathing overwearing a mask, for a long time, can lead to growth of bacteria, on the mask’s material, which would then be breathed in continually. Also, wearing it can restrict access to oxygen, for these reasons medics limit wearing their masks, to surgical procedures, and close interactions with infectious patients, and they will always dispose if the mask, once used, not wear continually.

People are being encouraged to make their own masks, or wear bandanas, or similar things, the problem here is that some materials contain microfibers, very tiny plastic
particles that are toxic to the body, and not meant to be breathed in continually !

We are reading reports of fit and healthy joggers, and others doing exercises, whilst wearing a mask collapsing with shortness of breath, it should have been stressed by public health Authorities it is actually dangerous to exercise with a mask on, or wear one with certain condition, especially those that affect breathing, like COPD or Asthma

We all rely on facial expressions to communicate, like body language and gestures, it’s a vital component of language, especially for young children, in their educational development, but for everyone actually. Related to this point, what about a world where we can’t share a smile with a stranger, how sad would that be ? Or, a child that cannot see the face of their parents on a shopping trip, how frightening fir the poor child ? Or, students that can’t see their teachers face, or friends that can’t see each other ?!

What we wear, how we dress in costume is a vital part of our character, whether our hair style, hat, hoodie, niqab, dress sence, make up, tattoos, piercings, ect we all are individuals, and each has a unique face, even twins on close inspection, but forced masks depersonalises you, making us all look alike, harder to recognize, I keep getting muddled up at work who I’m talking to, as with masks on they all look so much similar, we lose our personal expression of our character, and that would be a shame, normally we don’t dictate what someone wears, unless it causes extreme public offence, or unless we are the Taliban, or some other extreme version of Sharia law

In terms of the loss of facial recognition this will have Ramifications for law and order too, how will we identify a shoplifter, a mugger, or someone who commits a serious assault, surely people can hide their identities and crimes behind masks ? This is not speculation, already we are getting reports of masked criminals, whom it will be harder to I.D. for prosecutors. A few months back I was asked to remove my hoodie, by a supermarket, so the CCTV and store detectives could see me, and others, clearer, I unhappily complied, but how then are face masks ok for crime prevention ? Like with the Internet, if the masks are normalised their anonymity will allow some individuals to hide their identities.

It’s a slippery slope, folks, if you allow masks to become mandatory then what next, where will it lead to ?! Could we be forced to wear anything or have things injected into our body ? My body, my choice, you shouldn’t force anyone to work for you, that’s slavery, forcing sex is rape, forcing someone to dress how you want is the behaviour of a control freak

My last point, it just looks utterly creepy, never mind little children being nervous because of it, I and many other adults are quite understandably freaked out by it all, and worried, if we allow this then what on earth next !!!??? So, I hereby rest my case, in prosecuting mandatory mask wearing, each point alone is significant, but take all the points together and the case is then like many pieces of string, bound together they make a tough rope, which will not easily be broken, and neither must we folks, if we are to endure through this madness, and strive back to some sanity, we need to argue reasonably with others, respecting their choice, if they want to wear a mask, their body, their choice, but my body is my choice, and my face has no mask and never will

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 30, 2020 1:16 PM
Reply to  Nicos

anyone telling people to wear masks is certainly not a health authority.

wardropper
wardropper
Jul 30, 2020 5:57 PM
Reply to  Rachel

Well said. It’s the new breed of “health authority”, with quotation marks, which has become the only species now able to apply successfully for high positions in crucial departments. If you really understand the fundamental tenets of medical science and its rightful place in a decent society, you won’t get the job.

Enquiring Mind
Enquiring Mind
Jul 30, 2020 8:42 PM
Reply to  Nicos

I’m totally freaked out and horrified and can’t be around masked people

Nikoz Coleman
Nikoz Coleman
Jul 31, 2020 5:32 AM
Reply to  Enquiring Mind

I only had a brief encounter in on supermarket as the only unmasked person, and it was weird, but no one reacted, and I don’t want to let this stop me from shopping, as it would be a shame to relegate that exclusively to online, so I intend to go out to shops anyway, if they’ll except me, claiming exemption due to a health condition, under the Law, in the UK, and perhaps elsewhere, you can be exempt from the mask if you have a physical or mental health condition that would be made worse by wearing it. I think it’s important for there to be a maskless presence on the high street and on transport, to encourage others who want to be mask free too

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jul 31, 2020 2:31 AM
Reply to  Nicos

“…the people who are reported to suffer from it are nearly all very elderly and / or have serious pre existing health conditions… […] …the majority don’t need protection, their immune systems do that for them… […] …my body is my choice…”

(a) ‘elderly’: fuck you too.
(b) ‘pre existing’: tell that to the kids in the favelas or the poor and malnourished anywhere.
(c) ‘don’t need protection’: still ignorant on the directionality of cause and effect?
(d) ‘my choice’: so you want to look like your arse is your mouth?!!

Nikoz Coleman
Nikoz Coleman
Jul 31, 2020 5:44 AM
Reply to  Robbobbobin

A. Very elderly people tend to have more health problems and are at often a higher risk of infections, why are you being vulgar to me for stating this fact, they need protection and support
B. By pre existing conditions I mean other long term health conditions, like COPD, diabetes and so on, and yes sometimes that’s related to poverty, I don’t need to tell the poor this, they already know
C. The vast majority of people can competently get over many infections, and already have done
D. No, I want to have the cherished freedom to dress how I want to, and I want you to as well, providing it’s not putting others at serious risk, I’m sorry you feel the need to be vulgar

Toby McCrossin
Toby McCrossin
Jul 30, 2020 12:48 AM

So neither are epidemiologists? What a joke.

ZenPriest
ZenPriest
Jul 30, 2020 12:02 AM

Five different supermarkets now and only offered a mask in one. No challenges or anything from the others. Ignore this mask bullshit, even if the sheeple don’t.

Novicurious
Novicurious
Jul 29, 2020 11:38 PM

Kyle lost the debate the moment he started waiving his arms and raising his voice. Any psychologist knows that. Oh, sorry, he’s not a psychologist, he’s a philosopher (apparently!), just writes for a pop psychology rag.

Jason
Jason
Jul 29, 2020 9:15 PM

As we all know from the terrorist laws engaged. It’s not at the point of engagement that these laws are provided, but 5-10yrs from now, where we simply swap the term ‘facemask’ for ‘vaccination’…similar to those trust passports (ie to show who’s been vaccinated) that are emerging in Africa. If you don’t have one, no service for you, comply! Pure control mechanism based on a scary fairytale!

LKing
LKing
Jul 29, 2020 9:15 PM

Stop hugging your family and it will all be fine. Every time you put on a mask, a high risk individual becomes immortal.

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 30, 2020 1:22 PM
Reply to  LKing

what on earth could be wrong with hugging? are u psycho?

LKing
LKing
Jul 30, 2020 4:23 PM
Reply to  Rachel

I should have added a note saying I was joking, I guess.

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jul 31, 2020 2:44 AM
Reply to  LKing

OCDs don’t do joking.

Jerry
Jerry
Jul 29, 2020 7:17 PM

David Kyle Johnson – what a poor argument he has advanced. He uses a number of classic propaganda techniques within the first two minutes as a foundation to his argument:

(1, 2) Agenda Setting – exasperated sigh…personal reservation in being involved YET HE DOES SO DESPITE NEXT STATING “we should not listen to a debate between philosopher and a metals physician…

“debate already settled”; PERHAPS SO BUT ONLY IF YOU “Cherry Pick” THE EVIDENCE YOU WANT TO CONSIDER (another propaganda technique).

(3) Appeal to Authority – “anyone curious about the effectiveness of mask mandates should listen to current medical and public health experts.” BUT THAT IS PRECISELY THE ISSUE TO BE DISCUSSED: WHETHER THE CURRENT LOT OF STATE EXPERTS IS CORRECT IN MANDATING MASKING.

(4) Appeal to Fear — “then I learned how covid spreads and how prevalent asymptomatic spread of covid is …”

(5, 6) Bandwagoning – “I changed my mind” INFERRING SO SHOULD YOU; AND ANOTHER “Appeal to Authority”, this time, his own.

(7) Demonizing the Enemy – pseudoscientific claims of other side of argument.

I’d go on, but can’t be bothered to address this comical sales-pitch by a person skilled in argument but void of any serious command of the body of evidence to be considered.

michael canning
michael canning
Jul 30, 2020 1:35 PM
Reply to  Jerry

I wouldn’t consider this shrill little weasel skilled in argument — would you buy a used
philosophy book from him ?

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 30, 2020 1:42 PM
Reply to  Jerry

he ended it using the conspiracy theorist ploy. what a dushe? the trick is it is to drive you into the arms of the other one who is still arguing there is a pathogenic virus. heads you lose. tails you lose. he wants people to wave a red flag at a bull.

Paul Carline
Paul Carline
Jul 29, 2020 3:48 PM

The Quote I posted is from Arthur Firstenberg’s book: “Unweaving the Rainbow”, in which he shows the correlation between the spread of infectious diseases and the massive spread in the use of electricity and other kinds of electro-magnetic forces. There is now significant evidence of a relation between 5G and coronavirus. Wuhan has 10,000 5G antennae. Milan also has a significant level of 5G antennae. Both are industrially polluted areas.

Blubber
Blubber
Jul 30, 2020 6:53 PM
Reply to  Paul Carline

There’s actually been an editorial published now stating link between fffeyevvvgeeee causing carina in cells

Blubber
Blubber
Jul 30, 2020 6:54 PM
Reply to  Blubber

Caronavirus* not carina lol

Robbobbobin
Robbobbobin
Jul 31, 2020 2:55 AM
Reply to  Paul Carline

Correlations are just correlations, nothing more, nothing less. Some of them, sometimes, indicate causality.

Disclaimer: IMO no-one has yet established that 5G correlations are definitively not reflections of causal links to adverse physical or psychological effects and SAR ratings are not clever enough to establish definitively that they aren’t.

Paul Carline
Paul Carline
Jul 29, 2020 3:44 PM

Which one is the fanatic? Not difficult to choose …

Howard
Howard
Jul 29, 2020 3:31 PM

It’s interesting to note the difference in the extent of COVID madness among grocery stores. The “low end” stores in my area (Maryland) are (OMG!) just a tad careless in their COVID regime. Whereas the “high end” stores are scrupulous in their COVID regime. And, indeed, that coincides perfectly with the categories of COVID adherents: the solidly middle class folks are 100% on board, whereas the lower class folks (like me) are a mite careless.

When exiting the “high end” store this morning (I wanted to buy some organics), I had to walk halfway across the parking lot to get back to my car. Ah! but I felt ever so much safer!

LKing
LKing
Jul 29, 2020 9:36 PM
Reply to  Howard

That is interesting. Where I am in the western US, there seems to be a mix socioeconomically. I’m the most educated (book-learnin’ and school-wise) person in my family, but also the only one anti-mask besides my (anti-intellectual) dad. My less educated siblings and mom are all very pro-mask. What’s strange too is that my siblings are pro-mask/anti-Trump, but also behave as though the virus is not a threat at all. For example they have large parties without masks, while talking about crazy anti-maskers. I work for a conservative company, but about half the employees here are pro-mask. But they also behave as though the virus isn’t a thing here at the office.

Howard
Howard
Jul 30, 2020 3:32 PM
Reply to  LKing

Even though being in the western US doesn’t automatically mean California, let me go ahead and ask you something anyway. There’s a report making the rounds from the San Diego area about a pro-mask woman using mace on a family having a picnic because they weren’t wearing masks. Do you know if that’s true or “fake” news?

I ask because I would hate to think the anti-mask people would resort to the same slimy tactics as the pro-mask people (i.e., making things up).

I hope this won’t strike you as an overly stupid question.

LKing
LKing
Jul 30, 2020 4:32 PM
Reply to  Howard

I’m in Salt Lake City, so not that far west. I can’t say about that particular story, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were those types of stories on both sides, some exaggerated or completely fabricated and some true. On my local news website, there are regularly comments from people saying things like “teenagers coughed on me for wearing a mask in a grocery store.”

FWIW, I was in Sacramento in May, not wearing a mask anywhere and it emboldened a few local people to tell me how they thought the whole thing was a joke. I think NorCal is quite a bit more different than the bottom half of the state though.

Howard
Howard
Jul 31, 2020 2:56 PM
Reply to  LKing

In CJ Hopkins’latest article on OffG, he inadvertently answered my question. He linked to the video in question. I watched it; and it’s about as vague as can be – except for the woman off camera saying “You just maced my husband!” But the husband sure didn’t look like he’d been maced – or else being maced isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

All in all, I would be inclined to write it off as “fake news” – even though I’m very much on the anti-mask side.

LKing
LKing
Jul 31, 2020 4:59 PM
Reply to  Howard

I just saw the video and don’t know what to make of it. Assuming it’s fake, do you think it’s just some people who want attention on the internet? Or do you assume that somebody is pulling the strings to drum up indignation on both sides?

Howard
Howard
Aug 1, 2020 3:37 AM
Reply to  LKing

The video itself doesn’t appear to be fake – except for the blurred out license plate, which could not possibly have been blurred by the camera/smart phone taking the picture. The whole thing hinges on what the off-camera woman is saying. The alleged perpetrator seems genuinely confused by the incident; and says more than once “I didn’t do anything.”

Being a dog lover, my thought is that the woman – who might very well carry mace or pepper spray – would not do anything that might result in injury to her dog.

Paul Carline
Paul Carline
Jul 29, 2020 3:31 PM

Quote: “Efforts by doctors working for the U.S. Public Health Service to prove the contagious nature of the 1918 flu were heroic and resulted in resounding and repeated failure.
In November, December 1918 and February and March 1919, they attempted to infect healthy volunteers with influenza in the following ways:
They put secretions from the mouth, nose, throat and bronchi from hospitalized influenza patients into the nose, throat and eyes of volunteers; they injected blood from sick patients into volunteers: they filtered mucous material from sick patients and injected it under the skin of volunteers; they had volunteers shake hands with sick patients, talk to them, faces close together, for 5 minutes; they had the patient exhale as hard as he could while the volunteer, 2 inches away, was breathing in, then had the patient cough directly into the face of the volunteer, 5 times.

None of the volunteers in any of these experiments got sick in any way.

Paul Carline
Paul Carline
Jul 29, 2020 3:00 PM

The primary determinant is the strength of the immune system – not whether someone wears a mask or not.

Paul Carline
Paul Carline
Jul 29, 2020 2:53 PM

RCTs can of course be carried out – just as vaccine trials are done – with participants accepting the risks!

Paul Carline
Paul Carline
Jul 29, 2020 2:49 PM

Kyle’s histrionics do him no favours! In my eyes it reduces his credibility enormously.

Paul Carline
Paul Carline
Jul 29, 2020 2:25 PM

If Johnson is right – including that asymptomatic carriers can transmit the virus – isn’t the conclusion that everyone should continue to wear a mask for ever?

Howard
Howard
Jul 29, 2020 3:17 PM
Reply to  Paul Carline

I suspect that is the plan.

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 29, 2020 7:56 PM
Reply to  Paul Carline

not at all. the best time to catch the alleged virus is in the summer whilst vitamin d levels are high and there is ripe fruits and vegetables available to detox it. it is time for a huge social closening drive.

Blubber
Blubber
Jul 30, 2020 7:01 PM
Reply to  Paul Carline

Just until we’ve all given up talking to each other.
Second wave = masks to be worn at all times to finish speech off all together.

George Mc
George Mc
Jul 29, 2020 1:08 PM

Just caught someone being interviewed on Radio 2 who said something about preparing for the “second, third, and potentially fourth waves of the virus”. (I love that “potentially”.) Gosh – it’s amazing how far ahead some folk can see!

Paul
Paul
Jul 29, 2020 2:35 PM
Reply to  George Mc

Just BBC propaganda George.

Politicians, scientists and the media are peddling the 2nd wave based on what?
The latest science?
Well what is this science?
Can we all view it?
Are these alleged new cases leading to an increase in hospitalisations and icu treatment?

I read a Real Madrid footballer has tested positive which had Twitter in meltdown.
Lo and behold he has announced he is in perfect health and isolating as a precaution.

This important detail is left out so we can conclude none of these people are actually ill.
The pcr tests are completely meaningless.
These tests are alleged to be testing for the virus and not the disease.

The important question is how many of these people have been diagnosed by X ray as suffering from alleged Covid19 pneumonia ?

As this information is not given we can only conclude nobody.

Deaths have been below the 5 year average for last 5 weeks. The hospitals have tumbleweeds blowing through them.

Cases are propaganda to prop up the official narrative which is slowly but surely collapsing day by day.

George Mc
George Mc
Jul 29, 2020 3:26 PM
Reply to  Paul

It’s certainly shocking how blatantly propagandist the BBC has become. They now resemble the stereotypical way that Soviet news channels were portrayed in the good old Cold War. I wasn’t focusing on that radio show, but the guest didn’t come across as some official announcer – and that’s the lethal part. These invited guests are presented as just “regular folks” out doing their bit. But that “second and third and ….etc waves” thing is one of those blatantly ludicrous statements where I wonder if we’re supposed to notice the stupidity of them cf. the bit in Orwell’s 1984 where Winston is directed to see a different number of fingers from what he can actually see. Blatant bullshit presented in a chatty matter-of-fact manner as part of a huge gaslighting campaign.  

Wobbyjack
Wobbyjack
Jul 29, 2020 6:49 PM
Reply to  George Mc

I’m all a quiver just thinking about the sixth wave. Wow, a land without working class pensioners and unproductive workers. ☮️

Wobbyjack
Wobbyjack
Jul 29, 2020 6:45 PM
Reply to  Paul

Neat post. ☮️

Blubber
Blubber
Jul 30, 2020 7:03 PM
Reply to  Paul

Can you imagine as a science student writing a paper and qualifying it with ‘I followed the science’ but failing to site your sources??

Wobbyjack
Wobbyjack
Jul 29, 2020 6:44 PM
Reply to  George Mc

Were they of the exceptional lobbies?

JudyJ
JudyJ
Jul 29, 2020 11:57 AM

Secret to wearing a mask and being able to breathe properly… (see 11 minutes 25 seconds)! (Recent Lincoln Karim video)

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 29, 2020 10:58 AM

the masks reduce droplets so they should reduce transmission. since the rcts show no significant effect the conclusion is that the theory of transmission by droplets is false. there is no influenza virus spread by droplets. the better masks do not work better than the worse masks confirming there is no virus transmission. all the research confirms this but is worded based on the assumption there is a pathogenic virus. if there was virus in indoor air everyone would be infected very quickly. the real issue is people are eating shit, exposed to pollution etc. and the notion of a pathogenic virus a dangerous diversion deliberately made to facilite real causation of health problems.

Blubber
Blubber
Jul 30, 2020 7:08 PM
Reply to  Rachel

Brilliant

Caltrop
Caltrop
Jul 29, 2020 10:12 AM

“Bernard is right; the pathogen is nothing; the terrain is everything.” — Louis Pasteur’s deathbed words

Alcyon Pleiades 94: Pasteur fraud. Synthetic DNA vaccine. Quantum tattoo, chip. Luciferase. Cyborg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_61N1zERr0

 Alcyon Pleiades
8.53K subscribers
Since vaccines were first developed by Louis Pasteur, we have been led to believe that microorganisms and pathogenic germs are the cause of disease and, under this banner, vaccines and antibiotics began being commercialised, along with all kinds of dangerous chemical pharmaceuticals. Despite this fact, scientists of the day, such as Dr Claude Bernard, discovered that these theories were erroneous and sounded the alarm about the danger of vaccines, whilst emphasising the importance of nutrition and the immune system in achieving good health… Although evidence suggests that vaccines have failed to prevent disease, the manipulation of statistical data and propaganda has successfully convinced most people that they protect the human body from illness and death.

Those funding vaccinations include foundations established by the likes of the Rockefellers, Bill and Melinda Gates, Ford and the Rothschild Group – all of which are united by a common thread: de-population… Any number of physicians, expert scientists and immunologists have shown that vaccines are not only unnecessary when it comes to maintaining good health, they can produce genetic alterations, tumours and disease, in addition to increasing the incidence of asthma, ADD, neurological disorders, autism, autoimmune diseases and even death. They have provided evidence of vaccines’ toxicity and exposed the presence of heavy metals, DNA fragments from aborted human foetuses and other harmful substances. What can be said of experimental anti-Covid-19 vaccines made with synthetic DNA that have never been tested on humans before? And what about luciferase – which they want to include as an ingredient – or the use of quantum microneedles, microchips of sorts, aimed at control?

Could we be talking about a vaccine that is not really a vaccine at all? Is it terminal hardware implanted inside the body in order to change our physical structure, transforming it into a hard disk capable of receiving a software programme and connecting to the Cloud, thereby transforming us into cyborg-robots or transhumans? Who is behind all of this?

Video by Alcyon Pleiades

Ergo
Ergo
Jul 30, 2020 7:00 AM
Reply to  Caltrop

Do you mean Claude Bechamp?

Reg
Reg
Jul 29, 2020 9:49 AM

Read and weep. This is what’s going on in rainbow-unicorn-turdaux-land. I would home school my kids if I had any rather than have them psychologically damaged by fifth-rate creatures like these.

https://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/views-expressed/2020/07/some-teachers-are-preparing-school-preparing-their-wills

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Jul 29, 2020 11:14 AM
Reply to  Reg

They’re not teachers. They’re pathetic human specimens (today I suppose that had better be a gender-neutral humiX speciX).

They are not victims of Lockdown, social dislocation and disfunctional human relations – they are driving it, just as they were before COVID was a thing,

Most corners of the animal would care first for its young. Instead we have two iterations of Generation Me – and here I stop wasting time, electricity and bandwidth on these losers. Home school if possible. Counter the brainwashing of children.

Bothersome babushkas is what we need. Bring back the era in which older people were not afraid to step in to help children and tell off feckless adults.

Justification: Most countries will see something similar to this: The Guidance for Public Health Officers – Potentially Infectious Persons, released on July 8th, 2020. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-potentially-infectious-people gives officials (same types as the teachers) authority to seize children in the presence of “any adult that you consider to be appropriate”.

If the government busybodies can do that, then any citizen has not only the right but the moral duty to intervene.

Reg
Reg
Jul 29, 2020 2:11 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

I look around the world and there’s literally nowhere to escape these two-legged malignant tumours.

Seaweed
Seaweed
Jul 29, 2020 9:48 AM

Seaweed
Seaweed
Jul 29, 2020 9:54 AM
Reply to  Seaweed

He goes off on one at the end of this video but the rest of it is spot on.

Seaweed
Seaweed
Jul 29, 2020 10:45 AM
Reply to  Seaweed

…and still on the subject of masks…

wardropper
wardropper
Jul 30, 2020 3:07 AM
Reply to  Seaweed

I consider it misguided to make such a deadly serious matter into a Republican vs. Democrat issue. The greedy and corrupt in both parties support Fauci, Gates and the rest, because of the money. Democratic principles really have nothing to do with it, and neither do Republican principles.
Today, both parties are equal shareholders in greed, and those shareholders don’t even need a president to authorize their corruption. If they answer to anybody, it is certainly not the President.

Seaweed
Seaweed
Jul 30, 2020 6:31 AM
Reply to  wardropper

I agree with you, it’s humour and anti-mask, telling people to stop giving their power away, but it’s old school with the Republican Democrat split, these particular videos seeing the Democrats as being to blame for the world’s woes.

John
John
Jul 29, 2020 6:09 AM

I propose the following.

The corona scare has lead to a storm of policies, leading to all kinds of greater and smaller dammage, injustices and absurdities on many levels. Al kinds of lower governing and managing levels tumbling over each other, agreeing and disagreeing to apply a mix of policies.
Now, while the storm is raging and after this storm has ceased somewhat, there will be much critique and debate. There also will be admittance of faults, there will be admittance of wrong policies. Even the obligated face mask might be on hindsight admitted as ineffective or even damaging, or partially admited as such.
The admittance of errors, things which are not neceassy, things which are damaging to people and the economy, things which are absurd, etc. then logically leads to the idea of the argument that societies where to a great extent unprepared, which then logically leads to the idea of the need of greater preparedness. So they will all think of themselves to be very reasonable and intelligent, faults will be admited, dubious practices are exposed, some heads will be chopped of, gross imcompetence will have to be accounted for, and, most important, how to be prepared for this the next time will be a main item on the agenda, which implies more funding and the getting together of the most intelligent heads among the global community in order to ‘intelligently and reasonably’ legitimize big changes, including a plan of implemantation on all levels.

Paul
Paul
Jul 29, 2020 8:54 AM
Reply to  John

This is not a coincidence.
This is a huge psychological operation by governments on their own people.
They know exactly what they’re doing.

remo morris
remo morris
Jul 29, 2020 4:44 AM

“Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.”

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 29, 2020 9:17 AM
Reply to  remo morris

how do they know the persons didnt have laboratory confirmed influenza before the studies? you cant establish transmission occured at all with such pseudoscience.

remo morris
remo morris
Jul 29, 2020 11:56 PM
Reply to  Rachel

Ask FAUCI. It’s a CDC published study. Volume 26, Number 5—May 2020

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Jul 29, 2020 4:00 AM

They missed a chance for some fun.

Surely the problem with masks is we could make them half a century ago but we’ve lost the technology to make them today.

Like those Playtex “Cross Your Heart” suits that they wore on the Moon… with their Van Allen radiation girdles.

280 pounds of Ortho-Fabric, aluminized Mylar, neoprene-coated nylon, Dacron, urethane-coated nylon, tricot, nylon/Spandex, stainless steel, high strength composite materials.

Surely we can make a simple mask?

Or must we first “remove one of Truth’s Protective Layers”? © Neil Armstrong, 1994

Willem
Willem
Jul 29, 2020 7:24 AM
Reply to  Moneycircus

Going to the moon was a relatively benign lie. As a kid, it was a version of Santa Claus, but better. Going to the moon did not make you a shopaholic (as provided by the conspiracy of the shop owners who make children addictive to buying stuff through the children’s best friend). What going to the moon did to kids (like me) is to understand science! Well, not the science in how to hoax a population into something that does not exist (like the moon landings), but the science of how you could launch spaceships: physics and astrophysics. It made school more endurable: the idea that if you were good in math, physics, chemistry, you might become a rocket scientist.

But the moonlandings never happened as anyone can figure out for himself if he takes 2 minutes for himself thinking about how they could do it (they couldn’t).

I never thought about the moonlandings being a hoax (I just never thought of it, I did not really care) until I stumbled over David McGowans ‘Moondoggie’. In that essay he explains why the hoax persists, other than not caring about the hoax (my explanation why I never considered the moonlandings to be fake until I thought about it). Here is his explanation:

‘[D]espire the fact that it was a relatively benign lie, there is a tremendous reluctance among the American people to let go of the notion that we sent men to the Moon. There are a couple of reasons for that, one of them being that there is a romanticized notion that those were great years – years when one was proud to be an American. And in this day and age, people need that kind of romanticized nostalgia to cling to.

But that is not the main reason that people cling so tenaciously, often even angrily, to what is essentially the adult version of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. What primarily motivates them is fear. But it is not the lie itself that scares people; it is what that lie says about the world around us and how it really functions. For if NASA was able to pull off such an outrageous hoax before the entire world, and then keep that lie in place for four decades, what does that say about the control of the information we receive? What does that say about the media, and the scientific community, and the educational community, and all the other institutions we depend on to tell us the truth? What does that say about the very nature of the world we live in?
That is what scares the hell out of people and prevents them from even considering the possibility that they could have been so thoroughly duped.’

Same as it ever was…

hope
hope
Jul 29, 2020 7:58 AM
Reply to  Willem

Willem, whether the moon landing is a hoax or not is not clear: there are arguments on both sides. It would also involve various people having deliberately lied, and not just any people, some otherwise extremely decent people from the physics community. They cannot be judged by what the world has become today. Im sorry but Ive known from early childhood physicists, some of the very best, some of the last giants physics produced, some of them extremely good peoples, and physicists from all countries and cultures, including the former Soviet Union. None of them are living anymore, but those that were close friends of my family were extremely honest people and truly scientific. They certainly were no liars, they certainly were too good physicists to not be able to tell such a lie or stand for one.

For the covid thing, its different. There is clear factual evidence that at best it just is nothing different from multiple other viral infections humankind has lived with since its been around, and in recent years (like 2006), at worst there is no virus at all. The mediocratization of the so-called scientific community is now very far entrenched: my generation of academics are puny compared to those of that former generation.
Also the evil and immorality around is now of an altogether different dimension.
Im afraid I myself am astounded by how much its widespread and open. I had a very unpleasant brush with it during this covid affair, and am still very shaken by that experience, and am just trying to recover at the moment. None of this existed before, certainly not in my childhood, not among people one was likely to meet as straightforward academics or just citizens, just because you had dared to speak out. We now live in a world both mediocre and where ethics has lost all meaning.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Jul 29, 2020 9:25 AM
Reply to  hope

‘Someone would have talked’ is a common refrain to which the answer is always the same: some did, some died mysteriously, many remained silent. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/12152-apollo-whistleblower-revealed-at-last/?do=findComment&comment=135713

hope – your account of scientist academics being “puny” compared to past generations is a valuable perspective, but I disagree regarding evil being of a different dimension today.

Evil remains a constant: the degree to which people collaborate and lie may vary. We have just witnessed an illustration of how the majority went along with the rise of Nazism. This year’s experiment was population wide and global. You don’t get more evidence than that and scientists ARE studying it. Perhaps they will REVEAL PUBLICLY what it shows.* It seems to suggest that western countries are much more conformist, perhaps brainwashed, yielding many self-appointed beadles eager to sanction others.

The leaders of Sweden, Belarus, Burundi and Tanzania could not have demonstrated such independence of mind unless it was shared by a large proportion of the citizenry. I’ve just finished a book about the murder of Swedish PM Olaf Palme. One thing Jan Stocklassa didn’t mention is that it was the independence of mind of the Swedish people at that time that made Palme dangerous. Had he been leading a conformist country a) he wouldn’t have made it from the opposition benches to power and b) his opinions would have been largely ignored. Conclusion: sometimes TPTB can tolerate outspoken people, but if the audience is receptive, they’re dangerous.

Reasons for western compliance include many possibles: financial necessity/incentive topping the pack. Scientists like Martin Nowak are using Dietrich Dorner’s “Psi” Cognitive Model (see my earlier post below) of Afilliation, Certainty, Competence along with Existence and Preservation.

These are precisely the “nudges” that governments are using during COVID to enforce compliance. They are exactly the “behavioural insights” that keep people onboard with the Moon landings.

  • Scientists should not be shy about coming forward. We know they are studying exactly the techniques used during COVID by governments to encourage conformity

Please see my previous post on this: https://off-guardian.org/2020/07/27/watch-the-face-mask-debate/#comment-211642

hope
hope
Jul 29, 2020 10:44 AM
Reply to  Moneycircus

I take your point, but here I am not talking of leaders, of people one hears about. I am talking of people that I personally knew, I am talking of my own family. I know the point to which they were honest, I also know I have since never met a single person matching the intelligence of some of them,
I know what they did for their values, the incredible sacrifice they endured because of them and personally suffered from. I perfectly agree that evil and goodness are never more nor less. Here I am talking of a very specific group of people, those to whom we owe the best of science, those to whom we owe that the scientific spirit continued to be upheld after ww2 and during the cold war.

These are precisely those who have contributed to our still be around today, they are those known and unknown to whom humanity at each stage has owed that it pulled through despite all odds.

Once again, they are not people I have read about. They are among those I have known best and loved best, not because of their achievements, but
as human beings, people I have had the privilege to see from close daily quarters, and whom even if I could emulate a tiny tiny tiny bit, both in terms of values and achievements, I would consider my life has not been wasted.

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Jul 29, 2020 11:53 AM
Reply to  hope

That’s indeed a testament to people worth emulating – and I can believe the motivations have changed, though I know fewer scientists. I have an uncle with many semiconductor patents to his name. He walked away from a good job at Plessey (UK defence manufacturer) in the 1970s because of management practices. The company soon entered a spiral of decline confirming his judgement and he found an American company that matched his skills and ideals.

His son, my cousin, followed his father but has had a much tougher time of it, meeting incompetence and corruption at several major American/global companies.

Blubber
Blubber
Jul 30, 2020 7:21 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

Voting is becoming impossible for me on the site:( buttons don’t work

hope
hope
Jul 29, 2020 8:26 AM
Reply to  Willem

About the issue of how to get to know one other, which you and another commenter had wondered: because of that widespread evil around today, which I mention in my previous reply to your comment, an evil deliberately set to destabilize people who are trying to do their work honestly, and therefore may dig out untruths, so they are unable to continue working, and of which Im sure the OffG editors are much more aware of than academics who have lived relatively protected lives even when their honesty forced them to take a stand, Willem, you cannot expect these editors to take the responsibility of helping the readers of their site exchange emails and come to know one other.
This is a major problem with the internet, especially of the sites presenting an alternative opinion. The virtual world of the internet certainly provides a global medium to inform. But I think these free commenting sections should be ended as it is precisely there that you may come across that evil. And as of yore, it should be a matter of writing letters to the editors if one wished to comment, with full disclosure of who the writer was, and up to their discretion, which letters they published. Then possibly those authors of letters could come to more safely be put in touch in real life. It would in all respect remain safe for those commenters, whose comments were published. It would also be much more productive regarding any possibility of like-minded peoples getting to know each other, and thus of eventually something constructive in real life coming out of it. At the moment we’re all most of us relatively isolated. This is precisely the policy, and has been for a long time.

Willem
Willem
Jul 29, 2020 9:13 AM
Reply to  hope

‘ Willem, you cannot expect these editors to take the responsibility of helping the readers of their site exchange emails and come to know one other.’

I agree. I also agree with the evil that you can find below the line (but not always easy to spot and potentially poisonous) and that you should be careful in reading everything BTL. I also agree with your potential solution to the problem (writing above the line)

You have a book coming out and that may be a way of becoming to know who you are (as I would love to buy your book, based on the comments you give here).

And perhaps I should try to write something above the line under my real name so you could write to me. Not sure if that is possible though (my English skills are not flawless and thinking in Dutch is easier for me than thinking in English; writing something here in English is different than writing a scientific report on epidemiology in English… anyway…)

What I will not do is write about the covid above the line. It is too close to my work, and colleagues may feel exposed when I write under my own name, and where I will have to talk about them, explaining the ‘inner’ personality of the average scientist. It feels like medical confidentiality, and although it is strictly speaking not medical confidentiality (my colleagues are not my patients), they could see it as a breach in trust, etc. So if I do it, I need to write about something else. There are plenty of topics. Maybe even the moon landings. I’ll think about it…

hope
hope
Jul 29, 2020 11:22 AM
Reply to  Willem

Willem, let me suggest this: I have created an account for the purpose.
Its [email protected]

If you email there. I believe your email will be an institution account with your proper name. I will also then reply from my institution mail account.
As academics, former and current, and our real emails, we will be able to
trust we are who we claim to be, especially if you google my real name, you come across too much information about me (eg. as you know as an academic, former publications both as academics and in my case in the last few years, talks we’ve given, and so on and so forth are on the internet): I had erased all personal site connected to an institution, as I do not like this transparence. The other day I googled my name after my unfortunate experience recently and was flabbergasted to see how much is in the public domain.
On the positive side, evidently it gives someone honest trust we are who we are.

Anyhow I would be very interested in discussing with you given your field of research for one of my next projects. That we can only do directly.

covidiot
covidiot
Jul 29, 2020 12:40 PM
Reply to  Willem

Moneycircus
Moneycircus
Jul 30, 2020 6:17 AM
Reply to  Willem

What’s the point of believing in science that is not true?

The same people who would raise children as ‘rational’ Atheists, would protect them from the cruel and hard reality that the moon landings were a hoax.

This suggests that many people simply swap one religion for another: power of God for power of “The Science”.

martin
martin
Jul 29, 2020 2:39 PM
Reply to  Moneycircus

Apollo faced insurmountable difficulties, but consider what if anything has changed in 50 years regarding the technology to take men to the moon, and back to Earth. Or into orbit. Or to take probes to distant objects.
These are engineering questions that I cannot answer, but know them to be valid questions.
1.     Can an air cooled re-entry be performed (if at all, with low risk)?  Calculations I did showed that heat radiation and heat shield ablation only dissipate a very small part of the kinetic energy.
2.     Can the accuracy of trajectory required by the astronomy be achieved in a one shot departure at low risk of error? This includes the orbit plane, attitude, timing, thrust control and velocity. Remember risk multiplies.
3.     If not how is navigation performed ? Measuring position, velocity, attitude, timing, mass (loss of fuel), and calculating a new trajectory in varying gravity. In 3 dimensions.  Remember it is not a matter of getting there, you have to be at the right velocity (speed and direction). And altitude if going into orbit. There are no natural orbits states, you have to get the parameters right yourself. 
4.     The level of ionising radiation in low earth orbit and beyond is apparently of the same order as in an aircraft at 12Km altitude. Really? If not what can be done about it?

Jessica Korkis
Jessica Korkis
Jul 29, 2020 2:47 AM

Pr Rancourt has valid points backed by science. Great and very well mannered towards his opponent that wasn’t Dr like in his approach. His arrogant tone and ways had no place in this debate. He was very defensive. Thank you Pr Rancourt for this debate and for your courage

Charlotte Russe
Charlotte Russe
Jul 29, 2020 1:11 AM

A COTTAGE INDUSTRY

To mask or not to mask that is the question… In the US many businesses won’t accept the maskless– face coverings are mandatory, unless of course you’re at a restaurant. The killer virus kindly takes a nap so you can consume your dinner.  It’s an empathetic virus allowing humans a nutritional respite.  

And how about the “contagion moratorium” occurring during Black Lives Matter demonstrations which are now 99% white.  I guess, viruses become less infectious during political protests.  Another interesting phenomena is “intersocial mask wearing.”  Friends can walk shoulder to shoulder with masks flopping beneath their chin, however, if someone they don’t know walks by the face coverings are quickly readjusted. Masks have morphed into a viral security blanket. Make sure you cover your nose and mouth in front of strangers…….

By the way, isn’t it peculiar mainstream media news commentators are obsessed about masks, but not about goggles. Theoretically, if COVID-19 is in the air or exhaled as droplets your eyes would need protection. Eyes are a sensitive orifice which could easily absorb the coronavirus. MSNBC and CNN should be shouting about the need for goggles.   

It should be noted, the use of surgical face masks in an operating room is to protect a patient from wound infection and contamination from the operating surgeon or other members of the surgical staff, but yet the greatest cause of death is hospital-acquired infections (HAIs). 

One of the most common wards where HAIs occur is the intensive care unit (ICU). About 1 in 10 of the people admitted to a hospital will contract a HAI. These infections are associated with significant morbidity, mortality, and hospital cost.  I bet hospital COVID-19 fatalities are primarily due to HAI’s………  In 2015 an article appeared in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine entitled: “Unmasking the surgeons: the evidence base behind the use of facemasks in surgery.” It concluded by saying that “overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that face masks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination. More rigorous contemporary research is needed to make a definitive comment on the effectiveness of surgical facemasks.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

Well if facemasks can’t protect doctors or patients during surgery why would a Fauci baseball mask positioned under his chin save the populace from the deadly coronavirus.&nbspcomment image

Over the last six months, face-mask-making has become a cottage industry. Perhaps, that’s Biden’s “Build Back Better’ Economic Plan, all unemployed victims of the lockdown will be assembling masks for all the other impending WHO pandemics. 

Willem
Willem
Jul 29, 2020 7:37 AM

They are really rubbing the bullshit into our faces. When will the population at large have enough of it and say: Enough! – It seems they can go on until infinity with their bullshit, without having to be afraid for some blowback. But then, their models of how mass psychology works could prove wrong.

In the end they are just oil snakes men personified as the Duke and the King in Huck Finn. They can only play one game: hit and run. But sometimes they forget to run since the hitting gives them so much ‘fun’ or because the hit can lead to tremendous prosperity. Seems to me we are in that stage now..

Charlotte Ruse
Charlotte Ruse
Jul 29, 2020 11:30 AM
Reply to  Willem

Funny you should mention snake oil salesman–the Rockefeller fortune was amassed by a con-artist: William Avery “Devil Bill” Rockefeller Sr. (November 13, 1810 – May 11, 1906) was an American businessman, lumberman, herbalist, salesman,
and con-artist who went by the alias of Dr. William Levingston. He worked as a lumberman and then a traveling salesman who identified himself as a “botanic physician” and sold elixirs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rockefeller_Sr.

Charlotte Ruse
Charlotte Ruse
Jul 29, 2020 11:47 AM
Reply to  Willem
Blubber
Blubber
Jul 30, 2020 7:27 PM

Can’t vote you up either – button not working 🙁

Epousedesacrecoeur
Epousedesacrecoeur
Jul 29, 2020 12:51 AM

No, because there is no virus.

Despina Arzouman
Despina Arzouman
Jul 29, 2020 12:29 AM

Dr. Johnson’s opening statements TOLD ME THAT HE’S PSYCHICALLY BLIND AS A BAT and therefore spiritally unconscious… reading pre-scribed LIES. I am unable to listen to his voice because of the total lack of sincerity … and I’ve already heard Dr. Rancourt speak elsewhere <3 so I’m signing off to this “debate”. P.S. I do not wear a mask (save for a loose cloth when go into a shop).

David
David
Jul 29, 2020 12:07 AM

The most powerful study Dr. Rancourt cites is the one in which households with an infected person are compared based on whether masks are used by the infected individual, the healthy individuals or neither – if I got this right that study seemed to show NO difference in infection rates for the healthy persons in all households. Wearing/not wearing of masks had no effect on transmission of CV.

Paul
Paul
Jul 28, 2020 11:49 PM

This site is great in producing factual information to challenge the bullshit we have been fed for the last 4 months and it’s great to share ideas and information with each other.

But now we need to take action ourselves and start challenging our MPs and governments. It’s the only way to make a difference.

Here in Northern Ireland I sent a freedom of information request about the accuracy of the Coronavirus tests and can other Coronavirus yield a positive result.
The response was ‘the tests are not 100% accurate as they are prone to false positives and false negatives.
A positive result indicates the presence of SARS-CoV 2 and other Coronavirus would not produce a positive test result’.

A bit washy and open to interpretation.

Today I’ve sent them another Freedom of Information request with the following questions:

1. When the health minister Robin Swann announced in late February/early March that 15,000 to 20,000 people would die in Northern Ireland- who supplied the computer model? Did Minister Swann ask the chief medical officer and chief scientific advisor to verify these models? If so what was their conclusions?

2. To date in Northern Ireland 556 who tested positive for SARS-CoV 2 have sadly died and Covid19 has been recorded on their death certificates.
As Covid19 is a pneumonia that’s claimed to be caused by the SARS-CoV 2 virus and the gold standard method of diagnosing pneumonia is by X ray and a CBS (complete blood sample), how many of these people had the X ray and CBS to confirm the Covid19 pneumonia?
Of these 556 people how many had autopsies done to confirm that they died from Covid19 or it played a significant part in their death?

3. When the announcement was made to ease the lockdown the Northern Ireland executive published a ‘Pathway to Recovery’ which consisted of 5 steps. The First and deputy first minister promised to publish the scientific and medical evidence behind each step. This has yet to be published. Please send me a copy of it?

4. From 10th July face masks/coverings were made mandatory on public transport and from 1st August they are to be worn in shops with the threat to make it mandatory by 20th August if there’s not 80% compliance.
Health Minister Swann has claimed that the science now supports the wearing of these masks/coverings.
What exactly is this science? Minister Swann has never said what it is. Why is it not on the Department of Health website for everyone to view?
Throughout the last 4 months Minister Swann has said there are no benefits to wearing a face covering. Dr Jenny Harries from Sage is on record saying wearing masks might increase the spread of coronavirus.
The WHO stance was they should only be worn in health settings and admitted that they changed their stance due to political lobbying.
The only new science is based upon the casual observations by 2 Oxford University academics who conclude their paper with a disclaimer ‘the authors accept no legal liability for decisions based on this evidence’.
Hardly sound science.

All RCTs (randomly controlled trials) on face coverings show they don’t stop the spread of viruses but rather can make the wearer ill.
Please supply the risk assessment that Minister Swann has carried out?
Please send me the case studies that provide evidence the virus is spread on public transport and in shops?
To date how many positive cases have been linked to people using public transport and doing shopping?

To date there have been 5,912 positive tests which is 0.3% of the population and 556 deaths recorded as Covid19 in Northern Ireland which is 0.029% of the population.
Does the data show the virus has been suppressed without the use of face masks?

5. Minister Swann and the chief medical and scientific advisors have claimed there may be future waves of the virus. What scientific evidence do they have?
Please send it to me?
Professor Sunetra Gupta, of University of Oxford, is a professor of Epidemiology, and has stated the latest data shows SARS-CoV 2 is no worse than flu and we already have herd immunity.
We have been informed from the start that the ministers are being guided by the science.
If this is the case are they willing to listen to Professor Gupta or do they disagree with her? If so why?

Will I get an answer. Maybe and maybe not.
But I’m not prepared to be a fool of.
I have been careful to make no accusations and these are questions that need to be answered.

I recommend we all start doing this.
At least I know I’ve done something.

Alex Stewart
Alex Stewart
Jul 29, 2020 12:36 AM
Reply to  Paul

Fantastic questions, 🤞 you get answers, please share if you do (I’ll come back to check) I’ll also send onto my local MP’s and share the spin.
Distrust the government
Avoid the media
Stop the LIES:
I’m sure readers here are familiar with The Old Man in a Chair. https://youtu.be/A-ZA8r6EcO0

James M Nunn
James M Nunn
Jul 28, 2020 11:48 PM

LIke I said, Kyle is a shill.

Howard
Howard
Jul 28, 2020 10:57 PM

It’s telling that Professor Johnson begins by deferring to “current medical and public health experts.” The key word here is “current” – key precisely because many medical and public health experts who have questioned the effectiveness of face masks are no longer “current” because their views have been marginalized and largely removed from public consideration.

One generally begins a debate by attempting to narrow the focus of the narrative, thus providing a more substantial base for one’s particular view. In this Professor Johnson has been greatly aided by the media – which only strengthens his argument in the eyes of those who depend on the media for the stuff of their thinking process.

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 28, 2020 11:35 PM
Reply to  Howard

they are a terrorist group not public health nothing. these entities have no place on this planet.

JoeC
JoeC
Jul 29, 2020 3:43 AM
Reply to  Howard

Great post, Howard. That prick is not appealing to logic or even science. Just pandering to his audience.

James M Nunn
James M Nunn
Jul 28, 2020 10:50 PM

DK Johnsons uses the #3 strategy of Karl Rove; accuse the oppositon with what you’re doing i.e. that they couldn’t get a medical person to take the anti mask arguement. . Exactly, they couldn’t find a medical expert to take the pro mask side without repercussions from their peers who know better. DK is a shill for the powers that be. #no mask, no vaccine.

Eric Francis
Eric Francis
Jul 28, 2020 10:47 PM

Here is the problem with the discussion. To debate whether “masks” “work,” you need a definition of “masks,” and “work” and especially “work for whom.”

Then there is the question of whether the defined mask works well enough to become mandatory public policy. An N95 is different from an old bandanna, but we are attempting to reason about them at the same time. If the goal is to get a public health benefit, and an N95 gets that benefit but an old bandanna does not, then why can public health authorities insist on a “mask or cloth face covering”?

We then need a second discussion of the rationales used by public health authorities for their policies, contrasted with the rationales under previous public health recommendations specifically against the use of “masks” by the same public health officials. Was there some scientific breakthrough in April that we don’t know about?

We would then need a third discussion on the ulterior motives of public health officials for recommending “masks” which are rarely actual PPE (personal protective equipment) — such as the political motives for leaders insisting on face coverings as opposed to actual PPE. There are many potential motives.

I find it interesting that nobody has collected a few thousand “masks” and analyzed them for the presence of viral particles, on either side of the device.

Eric Francis
Eric Francis
Jul 28, 2020 9:45 PM

The logician professor commits half of the fallacies in the first 45 seconds! That’s incredible!

Left in the dark
Left in the dark
Jul 28, 2020 9:28 PM

One has to wonder why “Professer Kyle is so angry in het rebuttal.

Left in the dark
Left in the dark
Jul 28, 2020 9:25 PM

One has to wonder why ”Professor” Kyle is so angry in his rebuttal.

Bill conklin
Bill conklin
Jul 28, 2020 8:39 PM

The philosopher makes a great Argument for the idea that common sense should determine whether or not to wear a mask. The scientist makes a great argument for why masks don’t work. I suppose that is because the philosophers have pickled their brains By rebreathing their own exhaust.

George Cornell
George Cornell
Jul 28, 2020 8:36 PM

This is a matter for experienced epidemiologists.

Admin2
Admin
Admin2
Jul 28, 2020 10:30 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

With respect, this is not the time to defer to perceived ‘experts’. It’s clearer now than ever before, surely: the priests and priestesses of science aren’t, for the most part, working with our interests in mind. I believe we are all capable of checking these things out for ourselves, thinking for ourselves and reaching an informed decision based on the data out there. A2

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 28, 2020 10:52 PM
Reply to  George Cornell

epidemologists simply analyse data generated out of germ theory. it is taking the cart before the horse to suggest they have some special knowledge. this is a matter for you to stfu. https://youtu.be/o9iQ8lIfyEs

Reg
Reg
Jul 29, 2020 12:16 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

Which ones? The ones you Stasi tools like?

Justin
Justin
Jul 29, 2020 12:48 AM
Reply to  George Cornell

You and Dr. Johnson both can’t seem to recognize the logical fallacy of appeal to authority

John Pretty
John Pretty
Jul 28, 2020 8:21 PM

“Debate?”

I will never willingly wear a mask.

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 28, 2020 10:44 PM
Reply to  John Pretty

we dont negotiate with terrorists. yeah tell it.

Lost in a dark wood
Lost in a dark wood
Jul 28, 2020 7:39 PM

There are a number of sub-threads below on the dissident US doctors and HCQ. The following are links to related material which I’ve previously posted, and they include a number videos by Del Bigtree (The Highwire).

600 Physicians Say Lockdowns Are A “Mass Casualty Incident”
https://off-guardian.org/2020/07/13/nhs-consultant-says-staff-are-being-silenced-over-covid19/#comment-204330

The Zelenko Protocol
https://off-guardian.org/2020/07/07/second-wave-not-even-close/#comment-201065

I’ll also repost the following:
https://aapsonline.org/preliminary-injunction-sought-to-release-hydroxychloroquine-to-the-public/
Preliminary Injunction Sought to Release Hydroxychloroquine to the Public
June 22, 2020

Today the Association of American Physicians & Surgeons filed its motion for a preliminary injunction to compel release to the public of hydroxychloroquine by the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) and the Department of Health & Human Services (HHS), in AAPS v. HHS, . . . Nearly 100 million doses of hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) were donated to these agencies, and yet they have not released virtually any of it to the public.

Millions of Americans fear attending political gatherings, religious services, and even large family get-togethers without the availability of early treatment if they were to contract COVID-19. Why should Americans have to wait until they or a loved one is on a ventilator before they gain access to medication to overcome this virus?

“Why does the government continue to withhold more than 60 million doses of HCQ from the public?” asks Jane Orient, M.D., the Executive Director of AAPS. “This potentially life-saving medication is wasting away in government warehouses while Americans are dying from COVID-19.”

Lost in a dark wood
Lost in a dark wood
Jul 29, 2020 9:53 AM

Dr. Stella Immanuel launches: #HCQWorks

https://twitter.com/stella_immanuel/status/1288149788534493184

WE NEED YOUR HELP.
We are being attacked, ridiculed and discredited. We need our patients to SPEAK UP.
If you have been cured by this drug, share your story online using this hashtag.
#HCQWorks

Lost in a dark wood
Lost in a dark wood
Jul 31, 2020 2:08 AM

Twitter says: This Tweet is no longer available.

But the hashtag is still there:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HCQworks

From Gateway Pundit:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/07/frontline-covid-doc-stella-immanuel-locked-twitter-6-days-asking-patients-cured-hcq-share-stories-online/
Frontline COVID Doc Stella Immanuel Locked Out of Twitter For 6 Days For Asking Patients Who Have Been Cured by HCQ to Share Their Stories Online
July 30, 2020 at 11:25am

Lost in a dark wood
Lost in a dark wood
Jul 29, 2020 10:29 AM

NB: this vid is > 3 hrs

America’s Frontline Doctors Summit – Session 1
Streamed live on Jul 27, 2020
TPPatriots

American life has fallen casualty to a massive disinformation campaign. We can speculate on how this has happened, and why it has continued, but the purpose of the American Frontline Doctor’s Summit is to empower Americans to stop living in fear. Join the summit live as we:

– Create the opportunity for frontline doctors to talk directly to the American people.
– Educate and inform Congresspersons, who have also been subject to widespread misinformation.
– Build alliances, as it falls to us physicians to heal our nation.

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 28, 2020 7:33 PM

first you would need evidence of a virus a mask could have an effect on. failing that then the only debate is about how harmful they could be rather than whether they work. without evidence it is plane terrorism like issueing threats or recruiting people to carry kkk torches.

Rachel
Rachel
Jul 28, 2020 8:08 PM
Reply to  Rachel

john rose has a new video on scientific proof colds and flus not being contagious. he also has a recent one on how he predicted the ‘pandemic’ 4 years ago. the terrain theory is that important that the world wars, spanish ‘flu’, untold medical deaths and abuse etc. could have been averted so think twice before spreading terrorist propaganda about there being a “deadly virus”. https://youtu.be/HtJh7y7V9MI